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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 11, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Back in the day, around the time of the Leavitt "I will pay anyone $1000 if they can repeat this route" controversy, it was reported in the mags that the climb had been "erased with a cold chisel". I was rereading some old climbing mags the other day and noticed this again and I still don't understand what that means. Were the bolts chopped or were the actual holds on the climb chiselled off?
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 11, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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I don't have an answer for ya.
But I will say your timing is downright spooky.
Maybe socalbolter or leavittator will chime in.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 11, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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I'm not sure of that, but I had heard that Bachar
had once made an offer if anyone could follow him
(climbing, of course) for a day, he'd pay them $10,000.
No one ever took him up on it, for good reason.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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May 11, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Much banter and -exspeculation has been written upon the subject.
Check wreck.dork.climbing for starters.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 11, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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glorified bolted boulder problem, louie anderson said he sent, boone speed -- who is tits on that kind of climbing and was at the height of his game at the time -- tried it said it was full-on-drop-the-clutch cranking just to stay in place on a move, some people figure anderson never did it, the vast, vast majority of us do not care one way or the other, this is a non-event tempest-in-a-teapot blip from 20 years ago.
why do you ask?
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Well, if it's just that the bolts were chopped off, there could be a hard boulder problem left there to send. If the holds were what was chopped off, though? Probably nothing. It's interesting if only for the role controversies have in our sport. Like the American sport climbing version of the Cerro Torre controversy.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 11, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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i doubt that it was the holds got chopped. i think part of the deal is that there were no holds to begin with. just a razor-thin offset seam to lieback with nothing for the feet. that's why nobody can climb it.
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Burt
Social climber
Yucaipa, Ca
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May 11, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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The "fire" is there but some holds appeared to have been chopped. I was just up there about a month ago and I could see some holds missing and some nice hammer marks where they used to be. I was around there when L.A. was working it, hell of a nice guy, did he send it? Who know and who cares, it is far from a "boulder problem" as some have spouted, it is an amazing looking route and a very steep wall that one day gets a proper ascent by the next generation. I grew up in Apple Valley and its a far cry from world class but I will always defend home; but the narrow mindedness of people is scary. I can just remember the scene at my buddies very small and unsuccessful climbing store in Apple Valley with Randy L. and other people just in a craze of this route. I was only like 14 I think I just was kinda appalled that climbers held such a hatred towards each other, and jump at the chance to call out and publicly hang fellow climbers which still is around to this day. Freak it's just a rock, go find and adventure has always been my feelings and before you call it unclimbable, or try to say it's out of that persons league maybe you should get on it and send away and if you haven't found success walk away and admire the ability of the other guy. I am sure some of you old yosemite guys on here never would have thought that the Nose, North American Wall, Muir, (I could go on and on) would go free, now it is becoming more normal to see free teams then aid teams. Just my 2 cents
Kurt "Burt"
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 11, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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A few folks directed me to this thread. Without getting too far into it; primarily because it is really old news and because Randy and I have long since discussed this and put it behind us, but also because I don't much care:
Yes, many holds were hammered off the route. As far as I know all of the bolts remain there today.
When Boone was out trying the route, the holds had already been removed. In fact, I was alerted to that by a phone call from Boone himself. Went out a couple of days later with a photog friend and saw what remained. He took photos of the rock scars and we sent a short letter to the climbing mag telling them what had happened, along with copies of the photos. This was prior to the Boone Speed article BVB quoted above, but the editor seemed to think that the continuation of the scandal would read better than the truth. Boone also knew what had happened to the holds when he made those statements, but no mention was made of that fact.
BVB is somewhat correct in that over the 45-50 foot length of the route, there is/was (?) only about 15-20 feet of really hard climbing. The rest was easy 5.12. I can't remember what exactly remains of the holds, but with climbing standards where they are today, I've often wondered if it would still go with the much smaller holds that exist now. For a local crag, it's a nice looking line, but hardly world class. That said, if anyone happens to find themselves in the area and can climb hard 5.14 or easy 5.15 (?) there might just be something there for them...
 Louie
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 11, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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Why would anybody want to remove the holds?
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 11, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Good question - never did figure that out.
The only plausible reason we could come up with was that some of the holds on the route had been glue-reinforced. Back around that time, there were a few other instances of reinforced holds being removed off of routes in Joshua Tree and elsewhere in SoCal.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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May 12, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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Louie = Maesrti ? What does donini think ? Leavitt ?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 12, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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I know about bolt chopping, but hold removal? They must have been glued or chipped to begin with?
I vaguely remember this dust-up, only because I had just read Refiner's Fire and thought the main character never would have been a sport climber.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 12, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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Knott knowing any of the players involved, I assumed the whole RF thing was a hoax, since
the route supposedly represented a quantum leap in the abilities of the FA-ist (LA). What other
5.14 routes were done by him prior or since - considering 5.14b was pretty rare at the time?
Why do I care? Well, there's a certain bullshít artist in Marin who was notorious for claiming things
he absolutely didn't do. In fact, there are a few lesser frauds locally who have been duly exposed.
I took these guys at their word until I found out the truth. I suppose I take this stuff personally.
It is a "weakness" I freely admit to - shame on me.
Yet we're told time and time again that "it doesn't matter" or "who cares?", which conveniently sidesteps the issue.
We all want to be able to take climbers at their word, but historically there are too many glaring examples of climbers
––who later were proved to be making shít up––knott to be cynical. Too much trust has been violated. Trust is sacred.
[/rant]
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 12, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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because he is still using the same chipping tactics in 2009
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 12, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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So hard not to get sucked in when people are speaking untruths about what, at the time, was the culmination of a lot of hard work on my part.
There are NO chipped holds on that route at all. There were a dozen or so thin flakes that had been glue-reinforced. Reinforcing is either something you are OK with or are not OK with. I guess I'll leave that judgment up to you, but you should know that the total amount of epoxy used on that route would have fit in the palm of your hand. No holds were glued on, rather some potentially friable flakes were reinforced with epoxy behind them. At the time (and now) glue-reinforcing is commonplace on hard routes (and not so hard routes) in many SoCal climbing areas. This route was no different in that regard from many dozens of hard routes elsewhere, and was located in a climbing area that already had chipped and/or reinforced holds on some of its other most difficult routes.
As for my abilities: at the time that route was two letter grades harder than my hardest prior redpoints; not exactly a quantum leap forward. In the years since I have succeeded on a half dozen other 5.14 routes, with at least one of them being of a comparable difficulty to Refiner's Fire. It's worth noting too that the version of the route that I redpointed (prior to hold removal) was considerably easier than what Boone tried and what is there now.
The bottom line is that the uproar around my redpoint (and Randy's challenge of it) was a painful chapter in my life, and one that showed me the dirty underside of our sport's supposed camaraderie and media press. I've tried to be a far more private individual since then and can tell you without hesitation that our sport is far more rewarding to me now for having made that decision.
And for what it's worth, I too believe that trust is sacred.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 12, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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BVB: "the vast, vast majority of us do not care one way or the other, this is a non-event tempest-in-a-teapot blip from 20 years ago."
Which puts it smack dab in the main stream of topics here, hehe.
Whichever generation logs on, pretty much relives its wars-- '50s, 60s, 70s, '80s, they all represent.
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MH2
climber
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May 12, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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Funny, I find myself caring more about this than about Cerro Torre. I understand the fundamental importance of telling the truth, always, if you place any importance on other peoples' opinion of your word. I cannot fathom why those holds would be chopped, though. Is there a simple answer? Or was it just craziness? What was gained?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 12, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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socalbolter--I've been to the Riverside Quarry exactly once (I live in CO was just visiting So Cal--had a great time. Just sayin.
For people to get bent out of shape about alleged chipping or whatever AT A FREAKING QUARRY (sitting above a garbage dump) is really, really strange.
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jack splat
climber
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May 13, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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Why not just post up an unedited video of yourself sending one of your current 5.14b's?
That would lay to rest a lot of doubts and doubters.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 13, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Nice Posts Louie
Peace
Karl
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fourmiletrail
climber
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May 13, 2009 - 02:01am PT
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It would have been better to let the holds break if they were gonna break (no glue) , and let the route evolve naturally like other good routes that have change over time . But I appriciate Louie's candor . Good thread topic too .
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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May 13, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
Enough said.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 14, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Great quote from Teddy!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 14, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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One of the interesting things about doing new routes at some of these sport climbing areas is that in many cases the rock is covered by a regular jacket of choss that has to be pried off to expose the holds that will eventually be used. I can think of several instances of this out at Malibu and Echo.
Take Mt. Gorgeous, now one of the most popular areas out there. When we first went there I doubted there was anything worth doing since the lower part of the wall was so piss poor and covered with loose shite. Joe K. and I spent an entire afternoon prying flakes and crap off it with a full-sized crowbar, and I'm talking about big stuff too. The wall was still loose - top to bottom - for a few seasons till the routes got done like 1,000 times. Parts of it are loose to this day . . . It's choss, after all.
And the area by the dam (Drifter wall??) with the long, slanting 12a on it - that wall was totally excavated. I know because I considered excavating the thing myself and was put off by the amount of work involved.
Same for some of the stuff up on The Wave, and a whole lot of stuff out at Echo has clearly been unearthed and fashioned to some extent(Pico Raquilita, Boney Bluffs, etc).
Exactly where "hold chipping" and the excavation process cross, or become the same thing, is an interesting question. I remember when we were putting up stuff on Mt. Olympus (cobbles), we'd set the anchors and then spend hours banging on the cobles with a framing hatchet to try and knock all the loose stuff off. Sometimes a cobble would bust off leaving a good hole. Is this "chipping?" Probably.
But then there's a another specie of chipping that basically attacks a smooth wall and literally gouges/pounds out holds, as was done on the Nose face traverse (unbelievably ugly and something pretty much overlooked and rearly mentioned on Free Nose discussions). Such chipping or wholesale hold making dates back to the early days at Stoney (and long before) with the steps chopped into the face of Boulder 2. Such intentional hold manufacturing has never been sanctioned on good rock, but on choss, where the medium is far more plastic, the issue becomes a lot more cloudy.
JL
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smith curry
climber
nashville,TN
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May 14, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Hey, have any of y'all READ the NOVEL "Refiner's Fire?"? It's by Mark Helprin, and it's amazing.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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May 14, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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interesting
I don't know that it becomes less clear as much as, there seems to be a required justification for anything that has the hallmark of being a heavy handed technique.
Not that it can't be done as an absolute principle, but the specifics of how and why become more important and whether someone opposes the action or causes the action, both owe justifications. They must be able to say that for a particular instance the glue or the hammer or prybar was necessary or not.
In my mind, glue is pretty much not justifiable. I don't mean that in an ill manner, just that reinforcing of a hold seems to set a bad precedent. But it does matter that 'it is how we talk about the issue' that is important. That we consider the impacts and effects, whether choss or not. Can a glued hold be justified to any land manager?
cleaning/chipping is in a similar category, but only because we talk about chipping in a loose way, and don't agree on what the definition is. If the definition is clear, by virtue of the specific actions taken, for any effort that is like cleaning or chipping then we'll all make sure we are comfortable telling anyone why and how we did our action. correct?
thoughts?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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May 14, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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I remember the Refiner's Fire thing. Enhancing holds (glued in that case, so maybe preserving holds is a better term) was not the main issue at the time. Rather it was the full-on, no-holds-barred verbal assault on the guy who claimed he had climbed a route near the top of the scale (at the time) when he had no tick list of the standard-setting routes of the moment to establish credibility. From the outside it seemed pretty brutal-- sort of like the 5.14 club wasn't going to let anybody in who they did not think was worthy.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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May 14, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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werd
You know what's really f'd up, I kind sorta used to think along those lines, that because elite climber's could pull stuff, they were special. But in my case I've been a punter a long time, so I'm even more hopeless.
The same elitist approach/barage that was thrown to LA was way heavy handed. But that's all behind now. We're talking about the future.
I'll stop bumping this thread now. Sorry, the philosophical issues get the juices flowing.
-edit, ok, they are special, but in a different way.
Damn, let's get some climbing done this weekend. fuk ya!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 16, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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At the time the issue was not about modification of rock but veracity of reportage.
F it, this story died years ago.
Talk about beating a dead horse.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 17, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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Well there's a log on the fire...
"In my mind, glue is pretty much not justifiable. I don't mean that in an ill manner, just that reinforcing of a hold seems to set a bad precedent. But it does matter that 'it is how we talk about the issue' that is important. That we consider the impacts and effects, whether choss or not. Can a glued hold be justified to any land manager?"
I agree with Largo that these things are area dependent. Land Managers don't see glued holds (unless they read climbing forums where climbers fight about them)
and climbers who use a choss area where much gardening and gluing are required don't tend to fight about it, it's either that or no climbing.
On the other issue, I know squat. It's funny how climbing generates these controversies where people who otherwise seem great are accused of lying by people who otherwise seem great, often using good examples and logic. Seems like we know if we've arrived at a truth cause nobody seems to fess up and say "yeah I lied" and on the other hand, it's hard to prove a negative.
What to do? Our wholes lives and identities are built around illusions.
Peace
Karl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2009 - 02:26am PT
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It does seem a bit silly to get all worked up about a little section of rock;....and for most people;...yeah;...who gives a squck?........BUT for guys like Leavitt, Cozgrove, Boone, and , at the time, a few others who were on a single-minded mission to climb the hardest climbs in America;....hell yeah; it's a big deal.......To those guys I say, Bravo, hats off, and yeeehooo........I appreciate their dedication, motivation, eccentric thinking, and intense drive and unbelievable talent and focus............I can easily see their disappointment when they found the route to be unclimbable to them (for whatever reason).......for the rest of us punters;....it's just all a bunch of hype, flap, TMZ, Enquirer, poparazzi, .....a curiousity at best......AND it's so old new that the dust on this story is making me sneeze. Once again, a big Bravo and hip hip horray to Louie, Leavitt, Coz, Boone, Sharma, Lindner, and all those other crazies who have the talent and motivation to pull THAT hard...........it's madness, for sure!.......Doing FA's is alot of fun;....but can get stinky....... controversy and funk don't slow down guys like Louie, Coz, Boone, Sharma, Lindner, or Leavitt;........that kind of RAD has a head of steam that is plowing down the tracks like a freight train.........best to stand back and admire the awesomeness of their ability, drive , motivation , and creative flow......and ignore the few fleas on these awesome dogs........(Sometimes we accidently smell the manure that the beautiful flowers are growing in..........)
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
the greasewood ghetto
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May 17, 2009 - 05:05am PT
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Largo : " I spent an entire afternoon prying flakes and crap off it with a full-sized crowbar, and I'm talking about big stuff too. The wall was still loose - top to bottom - for a few seasons till the routes got done like 1,000 times. Parts of it are loose to this day . "
Just climb it or not , but a crowbar ?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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May 17, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
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I think Todd is a wise and insightful man.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 17, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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My last post in this thread will be this:
In response to Scott's (Coz) post above, I would have you call Boone and ask him, as you obviously do not remember the sequence of events. Boone called me, asking for beta on the beginning sequence of the crux section. When I gave him my beta, he was not visualizing it and couldn't understand what I was describing to him. Upon further discussion, we (both of us) realized that this was because I was describing features that were no longer there (or at least no longer usable). I had no knowledge of the damaged holds at all until that call from Boone. For all I know they were in the same condition when you and Randy attempted the route.
Rob Mulligan and I went out there two days later and saw the condition of the holds for ourselves. That was when Rob shot photos of the scars and together we sent something to Duane Raleigh at the climbing magazine. His response letter gave me a huge insight into the climbing media and its accurate portrayal of the sport. I wish I still had it (and later communications) as I would post them in their entirety. I guarantee many would be shocked at his comments and the language used as the (then) Editor of the magazine. In a nutshell, he said that they had devoted enough space to the issue already and that while what had been printed may not have been accurate, that they had no intention of making any corrections or clarifications. He then proceeded to print further letters (except for mine) and the portion of Boone's interview article that addressed his thoughts on the route. I sent in a response letter to the comments in that interview and again was told that they were not interested in printing them or hearing further from me on the issue. Also that he had spoken to Boone about my responses and realized that some of Boone's responses had been taken out of context and were probably misleading, but that he felt that the flavor of the comments as presented in the article added "flair" to the feature. Again, no effort was going to be made to correct the misleading implications. At this point I realized that nothing would ever be reported fairly with them and I decided to stop trying.
You obviously have your beliefs and I guess you're entitled to them - to each their own, but enough time has gone by and I've had enough other positive climbing experiences and relationships since that route that I can't bring myself to allow this to affect me any further. I've already put that chapter in my life behind me. You guys were on a mission at the time; a mission that you more than fully accomplished.
At the time, my amazement and hurt revolved around how vengeful you all were in your attacks. I was also very surprised at how the climbing media picked their champions and patently ignored all other aspects of "the story." This type of attack is something that's happened many times over in the history of our sport (think Wings of Steel for one example), and until that time I took as fact everything that I read in the magazines and elsewhere. I now know better than to do that so blindly.
As time has gone by, the bigger regret and impact has become the fact that a route that I put a year and a half of my life into, and finally succeeded on, was destroyed and is no more. Maybe the route will be climbed again at some point in its current state, maybe not. I hope that it will as I truly think it could be done with the smaller holds and provide a very difficult standard for the area. The fact that's it's located at a backwater crag may not make it attractive enough to today's top climbers though, so it will probably remain as it is. To me that's really sad.
As I said, I'm done with this thread. Believe what you will - I've done what I can to bring out the facts and offer them up to you all. Whether you choose to believe them or not no longer affects me. I've long since gone on to other great climbing projects and experiences. Some I've succeeded on and others I've walked away from to have others redpoint them (or not). I'm still out there looking for (and often finding) new areas and lines. That process of discovery and challenge is what fuels my climbing and keeps me motivated. I hope that never ends.
Happy climbing to you all...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 17, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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This is an interesting thread because I was a pretty young climber at the time this all happened and it was pretty eye opening to watch the drama unfold. I really appreciate Louie stepping in and giving his side of the story here, and in such a non-confrontational manner. I can see how this would have been a difficult time for you and you show some real maturity to be able to talk about it in the manner that you have. Thanks.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 17, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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I believe it is important for people to "come clean" before they can really "move on."
That's probably why it is part of the "12 step program."
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 14, 2019 - 11:02am PT
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Bump
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 14, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
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I REFUSE TO POST ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT AND SIGNIFICANT THREAD. Next point. Has anyone heard that Honnold Free-freakin soloed El Cap?
True story. No rope...and to those who say it's just like the moon landings I will not discuss it with you further.
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