Discussion Topic |
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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Blue Tool (8" prybar) Approved!
But that's Sedona - notorious for loose rock...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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To me, developing a climbing area is the antithesis of why I climb. When I think development, I picture chainsaws and bulldozers, and the end result is track homes and strip malls. Isn't that what we are getting away from when we climb???
Start from the bottom, work your way up. If you come across loose stuff, pull it off and drop it away from your belayer. If there is some moss and dirt in a crack, clean out what is needed to clean to make it up.
If you take the approach of rapping down, prying away with crowbars, madly brushing lichen etc, then working the lines, aren't you completely missing the point?
I've always been for a good trundle, but I still the approach to climbing should be to conform the rocks as they present themselves to us to the greatest extent possible, vs. beating them into submission.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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Depends on your priorities tolman.
Sometimes routes are diamonds in the rough and require one good top down cleaning to create a classic out of a death trap.
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kev
climber
CA
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Here's a big question to ask. Will these routes be climbed again? Often you can't evaluate if it's even worth climbing again until you've climbed the route (never mind if anyone else will ever go to said area.) Evaluate the cleaning (and bolting)
after the route has been sent. Don't put in convince anchor (rap anchors every 35m instead of every 60 or 70m) until after the route has proven itself worthy (and only then if you feel it's appropriate). Sure if it a route turns out to be a stellar climb in a place where a bunch of people will climb, re-climb it, remove the belayer slayer loose crap, do what cleaning you feel is ethical and be happy with your ground up line, but don't clean the crap out of a useless piece of jingus choss that will never see a second ascent by anyone other than yourself. Take only what you need. Hummocks are fun to climb on :)
kev
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Well, it sounds to me like you already know the answer - that you've been down the other road and understand the results of that path. As for the issue of boundaries, I'd ask if being on one side or the other of some line - even with GPS precision - alters the essentail characteristics and nature of that area? That was a big part of issue with Infinite Bliss in WA, where nothing about being a few hundred yards on either side of a boundary line changed anything about the area. In or out of the the actual wilderness boundary, it was and is a totally inappropriate activity for such an area.
From my perspective, this notion of "boundaries" is also well illustrated in Las Vegas where rapacious development spread right to the very boundary of Red Rock - entirely legal, but was it really necessary and in keeping with the character of what is being preserved in Red Rock proper? Did the city really need to build right to the very line or could it have just as easily respected a one mile, or even half mile, transitional buffer zone between the city and Red Rock?
Yeah, we can whip out our GPS's and shout, "Yeah! We're 20 yards to the good...!", but I try hard to respect what I find in a new area rather arbitrary human-drawn lines on maps.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
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Don't let others dictate terms for a place they've never seen nor be likely to see. Use your best judgment and proceed.
Keep it smart and discrete is my opinion, try and do your best via common sense - not like the idiot in the jeep there. LOL!
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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Couchmaster: history behind that picture?
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tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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It depends. If no one will ever be there again, it doesn't matter how much you clean it up - Mother Nature will cover it over again. Just don't leave toxic waste.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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If you don't own the land, then the question is best put to the landowner or steward!
One of the best bouldering areas in the state is likely forever closed because somebody ignored this fundamental principal.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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Lazy Eye, it looks like you are from SLO? I think I am going to spend the summer there, so do what it takes and get busy!
Yeah, I'd say the 8" bar for Sedona borders on extreme environmentalism!
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
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You answered your own question: "...we were pretty destructive." Is that acceptable? It doesn't sound like you think so.
If I had to add a pry bar, bottle jack and a wire brush to my gear list to go do a new route, I wouldn't bother. It's a waste of good climbing time.
Priority: The best route on the best rock possible.
If the stone is a piece of sh*t to begin with, there isn't anything you can do to change that, no matter what 'gem' is envisioned beneath the choss.
 ec
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
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"If the stone is a piece of sh*t to begin with, there isn't anything you can do to change that, no matter what 'gem' is envisioned beneath the choss."
Smith Rock?
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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I hope you are not talking about SLO.
We have enough problems with that type of behavior already. Please don't mess it up for the rest of us.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
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You know, I can think of a lot more reasons not to develop a new area than to develop it, mostly in relation to what I have observed of 'developments' that are done more for the convenience of person(s), or for their own aggrandizement- usually when this has been the motivation, the 'development' has not been worth the destruction and impact.
Not aiming this at the OP in particular, but climbers tend to be a pretty self-oriented lot when it comes to 'development', methinks.
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Up here in the leafy green NW the moss grows so fast that by the time you clean to the bottom of a route it’s already green again back on top.
For 50 years climbers have been cleaning and trundling at Index. A few weeks ago a climber was (on rap) trundling blocks and drilling anchors up high up when an old lady started yelling at him from the ground. She left him a note stating that she wanted to talk to him about his “routing practices” and then posted “No trespassing” signs all around the area. Turns out it was the owner and after a break of 60 or so years she was planning on reopening the quarry and didn’t want climbers getting in the way.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 16, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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hammer, chisel, crowbar, wire brush, bolt-on holds, epoxy, chainsaw, dynamite.
that'll do 'er, git 'er done!
call me when the guidebook is out.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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If you're talking about 166 area or Indians you might want to talk to Tom. Indians and Wagon Caves have some access issues including a ban on new bolting. There is a agreement between Climbers, the Forest Service, and the Local Tribe. One needs to tread lightly there.
If you're talking about 58 area, it would be worth talking to Ken.
Anyway, my opinion on cleaning is the same whether it is at Bishop, or Big Rocks. Email me if you want to connect with the locals who inevitably know about and are active in the area you are proposing.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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"So, I'm curious what other people think about route cleaning."
100% your call. Your the one who has seen the route potential. Have fun!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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How would you feel about some random guy cleaning your house, your driveway, or your car?
Maybe he pulls the ivy off your chimney and drills a few bolts!
If you don't own it, it ain't your decision!
Hans Kraus spotted the beautiful Trapps cliffs in the Shawangunks. Before he climbed there he found out who owned and asked permission.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 16, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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So Darryl, was the old dear going to reopen the quarry or was her decision influenced by the mentioned climber's tactics. Just curios.
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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No she said she loves climbers. Not one complaint about them. A couple possible quarry operators expressed some concern about climbers being around so the simplest solution was to kick climbers out. Right now a local access group (Washington Climbers Coalition) and the Access Fund have been talking to her about alternate uses for the land.
I just brought it up because it seemed so odd that she wanted to literally destroy the crag.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 16, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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Here's a Supertopian on a perfectly cleaned route. Just enough. The moss is off-route!
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mucci
Trad climber
sf ca
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Apr 16, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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We call her "Stretch"
Gentle cleansing action for those hard to reach areas.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 16, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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You better hope it doesn't get hung up on a ledge during a fall!
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mucci
Trad climber
sf ca
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Apr 16, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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"Stretch" rides the tag up and down like an elevator
Yes it would be difficult to explain a broom up the....
It's all about the reach man.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 16, 2009 - 08:10pm PT
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Hey, Chief - that reminds me of a funny story: ~~ thread drift alert~~
I had an acre and a half up on Nason Ridge at Stevens Pass, WA, and i bought an old 1958 Ford backhoe from a local to clear the land. It spewed diesel something awful, steered by two levers (crawler-style) and had the big 4 wheels with almost-bald tires (he threw in an extra tire for the rubber-boot patched tire on the rig, but it held as long as I had it). The bucket was huge, 6 yards I seem to recall? and the backhoe had a huge bubble in the steel on either side right by the main piston attachment.
I asked the seller: WTF?
He said the guy HE bought it from was an old miner and had blown the piston during excavation. Back then it was a rough road across the pass and into Everett to get a new piston. He got the part, but when he got back, it was too big.
No problem - he grabbed a stick of dynamite from his mining shack, gauged the explosion needed, broke the stick off, stuffed a fuse in, set and lit it and BOOM, new piston fits!
It' was quite amazing how close the 1-1/2" steel was to the piston...
I guess when the guy died, they had to bring in a bomb squad to deal with the sweating dynamite.
~~end thread drift~~
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apogee
climber
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Apr 16, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Coz: "You will be judge as a climber by what you leave behind, and what you leave alone."
Werd.
Unfortunately, there is always someone who will 'develop' a crag that someone else had the better judgement to leave alone.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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You guys sound like you're all from the southwest. Not everywhere is like that. There are plenty of places that reqire a little bit more work than the average crag in California or Colorado or Arizona.
If the mantra of "leave no trace" ruled in the Northwest, there would be no climbs below about 6,000 ft. Squamish? Nope, nothing there. Index? Nah, nothing there...
Proper use of a Chouinard alpine hammer
"The Rod of Undeniable Submission" aka a four-foot crowbar
Championship curling...
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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Where's Off White when you need him - to show pix of cleaning the crag on his property....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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When it comes to route cleaning at Squamish, I draw the line at tactical nuclear weapons.
Though, to comment on the original post, "develop" and "climb" are two words that should never be used in the same paragraph. Certainly not if the public, landowners, or land managers are likely to read it.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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What was that Squampton 5.8 cleaned with an air compressor over how many months?
Now where is that CascadeClimbers.com thread....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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I would hazard an educated guess that one of the more sordid tales of 'development' occurred at the venerable Castle Rock in Leavenworth in the 60's. Certain NW icons felt that photographic opportunities would be greatly improved by the removal of a number of trees on the big ledge separating the Lower and Upper rocks. We're not talking slide alder here but trees of at least 18-20" I recall at least 3-4 victims! Oh, for the good old days.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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my rules are
only destroy what you can with you bare hand
and
a bush in a crack is gonna get whacked
just use the ol Boy Scout method, leave it better than when you found it.
sometimes nature makes a mess, so if you can clean it to look more natural, that is good kharma.
if you feel guilty, then you are probably gonna get a ticket.
the approach trails are worse than the rock damage.
so start your trails from the bottom up, so you can whack in secrecy.
leave blank sections every 100 feet.
this screws up the rangers.
when you are almost done, connect the dots and leave it for a month.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:33am PT
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I know some areas (east coast and pacific NW just to name a few) ....these areas things just grow and grow;...more agressive cleaning is called for......out here in the desert, it's simple;......we just start at the bottom and end at the top.....if it can be cleaned by hand or foot and it needs to be, ....do it.....dangerous loose holds/plates/blocs are just pitched off by hand or food,.......The misconception that ALL climbing routes have to be licked clean and like a teflon frying pan is something I personally don't buy into;....a little loose rock, grit and choss is good for the soul, a character builder, and just makes the climbs more exciting and memorable........climbing on "perfect" rock all the time gets old and boring........
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:43am PT
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from a Legal standpoint, having "tools" might turn an infraction into a mister meeny.
and it really pisses of the tree fuzz, i found this out the hard way, but you know what, i either have a warrant or a nice ranger because
the ticket i got has vanished off the system, so i think i really lucked out.
so just be reasonable, so if you do get caught, it will not be with chain saws.
then you have a better chance of not getting tooled.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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a couple areas along the Humboldt coast were cleaned with a power washer. After that the climbs stayed clean and climbable. In mossy/grassy/green areas I suggest a 12% bleach solution and a lot of it. In fact, if you can, set up a 55 gallon drum on top and let it slow drip to ensure that vegetation never returns. Flame throwers do wonders but the soot does require a little scrubbing after.
I draw the line at DDT though...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:17am PT
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I love it how tools who are blessed with copious ammounts of perfect rock allways feel the need to tell the folks who only have choss that they can't climb.
Same thing happens with the bolt issue. The gunks for instance are blessed with several thousand gear protected climbs so naturaly gunks climbers feel that it is their duty to bust balls and decry bolts at areas that would have few to no routs without bolts.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 10:31am PT
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It all gets back to common sense.
See the belayer against the tree? This went ground up.
__
This one didn't. Before and after pics.
after
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This one went ground up.
Check out the ice axe for digging hummocks out or planting in mud.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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"sometimes nature makes a mess, so if you can clean it to look more natural, that is good kharma"
Are you people for real? I always knew that, in general, people are completely out of touch with nature, but I somehow thought climbers were a little better.
I am disgusted...the before and after photos make me sick.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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That comment about nature and "kharma" is really quite unbelievable.
I can only hope that Dr Sprock is trolling
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:39am PT
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My rule is that deep green moss in any large quantity means that it is not a rock climb. That stuff is pretty and it also means that the climb will be wet much of the time and a shady dank black fly nightmare. Best come back in the winter and have look to see if it is a decent ice climb.
Dry lichen, elephant ears, bushes, dirt , trees etc that may be littering a nice piece of dry rock are all fair game. Git er done. Nothing wrong with chainsawing a few trees if you put the wood to good use;)
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:57am PT
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There is a local crag that has about 10 routes on it near where I live, the Old Highway Crag. Anyway, there is a stellar looking slightly overhanging headwall on it that starts about 30 feet up the crag. I asked the couple who have established the new routes there why they have not put routes up this headwall, as it looks to have clean burly amazing climbing on it. She pointed out that the ledge beneath the head wall contains a old growth poison oak forest of biblical proportions. It guards the way, none may pass. It is going to take some brave souls to tackle this section. Any takers?
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Each successive generation comes along and believes they have all the right in the world to 'develop' a new crag- that it was put there for their use, and they have every right to use it the way they see fit- how is that any better than the ORV crowds that have the same sense of entitlement, wreaking havoc everywhere they go? It would seem logical that many of the 'developers' could also be devoted ORV'ers, with a similar (dis)regard for the land?
Those before/after shots are a travesty, and nothing close to the kind of environmental ethic I remember when I started climbing decades ago. It is not hard to understand why conflicts arise in many areas (verbal & physical) amongst land managers and, more disturbingly, between climbers, when this is the kind of impact they are having.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:36pm PT
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I have to disagree in this instance. I believe the photos above are taken in a area that has literally 20 times as much rock as Yosemite, but almost NONE that is safe to climb on. Some little crags hidden in the woods on the sides of obscure hills, in places where no one ever goes with the exception of the guys cleaning a few lines have virtually no impact as if they were to walk away and not come back for a couple years it would be as if no one had been there. The area here is so wet and verdant, that you can't keep the moss off the rocks! The crag is also SOUTH FACING, just FYI. I was just climbing at a nearby crag yesterday. Had to deal with the moss and slime as winter is just drawing to a close and not much traffic as yet.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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Studly, whatevvah. Every 'developer' rationalizes their decision and action with similar justifications- the end product is the same.
Assuming those shots are in WA, there is plenty of good, clean, classic, climbable rock in the PNW- regularly repeating that kind of 'development' is completely unnecessary, and to my eye is likely driven primarily by an individual's ego and desire for notoriety (Edit: not to mention convenience, as demonstrated by the nicely bolted crack. WTF?)
Another Edit:
After re-reading the OP, this sentence struck me:
"I've also worked with BLM in the Bishop area monitoring/protecting petroglyphs that were being defaced by climbers."
Such an interesting apparent conflict in applied ethics- ok to develop, disturb (some would say, destroy) a new area, but protects resources that were being defaced by climbers. Again, WTF?
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Manufacturing a rock climb by wire brush, ice axe, sledgehammer (see photo above), bleach, power washers, saws, crowbars is no different than chiseling or chipping holds. Todd G's approach is just right.
As a climber I am embarrassed and repulsed. If I were a land owner or manager I would instantly eliminate access to atvs, 4x4s, and yes, climbers.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 17, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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I'm not a developer dude. Nor have I been to the exact "area" in the photos. I am extremely enviromentally conscious, but I also know that pruning plants does not kill them, and that here in this area, it grows back so fast you can hardly stay on top of it. This is not California, it is in one of the wettest rainiest spots in the Pacific NW.
Don't judge if you don't know what you are talking about.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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Studly, I do know what I am talking about. I have been climbing for a long time (including in the PNW), and have watched the slow degradation of a lot of natural area by a user group (climbers) that supposedly prides itself on environmental awareness and respect.
It is true that without that kind of 'development', some of the greatest climbing areas (i.e. Squamish, Index, etc.) in the PNW would still be cloaked under slide alder and devil's club. I have enjoyed the fruits of the labor of past developers, too- my point is that, cumulatively, progressively, it isn't stopping- the bar has been progressively lowering in the judgement regarding acceptable impacts, and what areas should be developed in the first place, and how they are developed. If you haven't been climbing for decades, it probably isn't that noticeable, or it just doesn't matter that much to you.
As a user group, climbers are becoming pretty similar to any other mainstream outdoor recreationalist, in terms of impact. That's a far cry from our roots.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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The before and after shots with the lush green moss. that is one that i would have passed on. We have a lot of that stuff here in VT as well but we also have enough of the dry crumbly lichen infested rock to keep me busy. At least when you clean off the dry crumbly stuff you get a decent rout that stays decent as long as it gets traffic. I am a fairly agessive cleaner but that before and after sequence does go past what I consider appropriate. If that is all you have though then I can see how it could happen.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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"As a user group, climbers are becoming pretty similar to any other mainstream outdoor recreationalist, in terms of impact."
Exactly.
Should motorcyclists scrub cliff faces and trundle rocks to manufacture drops and motocross circuits? Climbers are no different...both groups think they are entitled.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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I don't feel so good....
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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I have spent a fair amount of time at Squamish and a lot of time at Index and can say with certainty that neither slide alder or devil’s club has ever been an issue at Index. Moss, Vine Maple and Himalayan Blackberry (an invasive species by the way) are far more troublesome. Many routes have had significant amounts of moss scrubbed off them only to be rescrubbed again a few years later by another climber thinking that they were there first party even to be there. Index receives over 100”of rain annually. Comparing the cleaning of vegetation at Index or even Squamish to places like CA ( even most Humboldt County where I lived and climbed for many years) or Vermont is a poor and very naïve comparison. The cleaning of route lines is not always synonymous with extensive development.
I have no idea where those pictures are taken but if a similar cliff was cleaned at Index after two winters you’d never know that it had been cleaned. Climber created trails in the SW are a far more long lasting development/eyesore. Any idea how long the the lichen free trail on Reeds Direct will last if climbers stopped climbing?
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
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"Comparing the cleaning of vegetation at Index or even Squamish to places like CA ( even most Humboldt County where I lived and climbed for many years) or Vermont is a poor and very naïve comparison. The cleaning of route lines is not always synonymous with extensive development."
Darryl (and others), none of my comments have conveyed an expectation that potential PNW crags (or SE, or anywhere else) are the same as SW crags. Further, there is a big difference b/w scrubbing moss and the kind of mechanical destruction that is illustrated in the previous photo sequences, no matter what environment you are in.
Our perceptions of acceptable impacts have deteriorated as a user group- virtually no-one who has climbed for decades can deny that the oldest, most popular climbing areas have significantly degraded due to overuse. There are plenty of high-quality, already established areas in the PNW (and the SW, which is the context of the OP), and I would bet that most of the pro-development posters here have not come close to tapping them out. Is another scruffy little crag really necessary in the big picture?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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No idea where this is. If it was at Index or nearby I doubt I would ever clean it for a variety of reasons. One of the reasons is that in two years it would be right back in the same condition. I may think that cleaning off a cliff like this is a waste of time and energy but I very much doubt it is the huge scar many are suggesting it is.
I believe the area shown in Ghost's pictures are not some pissant crag but a rather large formation with many quality routes. If I am correct in what crag it is, it is a far better
crag than virtualy any in the Leavenworth area.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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Most of my cleaning experience is at Squamish. I've never cleaned a route at Index, so am not qualified to say much about that area, other than that it seems to be similar in vegetation, rainfall, and rock type to Squamish.
But at Squamish, virtually every one of the hundreds of amazing crack pitches that the place has become world-famous for was dug out of the jungle by climbers armed with everything from screwdrivers and wirebrushes through alpine hammers and pruning saws, to huge crowbars.
This was all done with the full knowledge of both the local community and the climbing community. It has not led to ecological disaster, to legal problems, to access problems, or to unhappiness on the part of anyone that I know of. The area has not been made to look ugly, or abused, and has in fact become an mecca for climbers from around the world -- none of whom goes away muttering about environmental damage.
The general concensus among those who have been part of this process is that it takes about 100 person hours per pitch to bring a crack at Squamish into climbable condition. So, for example, if you go up there and climb Borderline, a six-pitch route on the left side of the Sheriff's Badge on the north wall of the Chief, you're enjoying yourself based on the 600 hours of effort that Eric and Susan and I put into it. At 200 hours each, that's the equivalent of over twenty full days of climbing that each of us gave up in exchange for backbreaking, filthy labor. If you think that we, or anyone else, would do this kind of thing without considering the consequences, you should think again. If there was some way that we who climb up here could put up routes without that investment in blood and sweat, and without the removal of vegetation, we'd be all over it.
Now maybe there are beautiful crags, with routes that can be done without environmental impact, near Vancouver and Seattle that I don't know about. If so, tell me where they are and I'll re-direct my energy.
David
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apogee
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
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Just as it is inaccurate to compare development techniques in one area of the country vs. another (i.e. SW vs. PNW), it is not a reasonable (in my book) to compare practices or standards that were used to develop climbing areas 20, 30, or 40 years ago with new areas today.
Times have changed: there are lots more climbers now, there are lots more climbing areas, and there has been a lot of accumulated impact since then. While many environmental purists may lament the techniques that were used to develop an area like Squamish (for the most part, I'm not really one of them, believe it or not), much/most of it was done at a time when the overall impact of climbing and climbers was much, much less than it is today.
Unfortunately, there are newer generation climbers who use past practices and standards to rationalize their own current actions, without the big picture perspective of time.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Back to the Original post:
The original question relates to a crag in SLO County, not in the Pacific Northwest. Trust me, moss and lichen are very sensitive issues here. Some have been working hard on a particular access issue here for over three and a half years, partially based on moss and lichen issues.
Please be conservative, both in your actions and your postings.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 17, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Hard to believe!
The issue is not where it is, but whose it is!
You are trespassing unless it is yours.
It doesn't even matter whether is is private property or public
property.
You can't spray paint your neighbor's house without his
permission, nor your local public school!
Nor can you legally climb either one, without permission.
Pretty easy to imagine after lawyer's fees and maybe a trial,
you could be bankrupt after removing vegetation or making
alterations that were irreversible or took a long time to be
reversed.
You might be better off cleaning your neighbor's garden, or the
local farmer's field!
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Warbler asked bwancy1:
You sound as if you have knowledge of long term environmental damage, or collateral damage caused by removing lichen and/or moss from rock.
I am not answering concerning the SLO area; however, I think that no one answer can be applied universally without making some huge errors. All mosses are not created equal. A plant survey was made at the cliffs around Index when many parcels in the area were being purchased by WA State Parks. The survey designated several locations as fragile. (They may have used the term threatened on occasion, I can't remember) None of these areas ended up being on State parks land. Climbers decided not to climb in the fragile areas. In the 17 years or so since the survey was made tons of moss have been removed with no complaints.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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"at Squamish, virtually every one of the hundreds of amazing crack pitches that the place has become world-famous for was dug out of the jungle by climbers armed with everything from screwdrivers and wirebrushes through alpine hammers and pruning saws, to huge crowbars."
and
"I have to disagree in this instance. I believe the photos above are taken in a area that has literally 20 times as much rock as Yosemite, but almost NONE that is safe to climb on. Some little crags hidden in the woods on the sides of obscure hills, in places where no one ever goes with the exception of the guys cleaning a few lines have virtually no impact as if they were to walk away and not come back for a couple years it would be as if no one had been there. The area here is so wet and verdant, that you can't keep the moss off the rocks! The crag is also SOUTH FACING, just FYI. I was just climbing at a nearby crag yesterday. Had to deal with the moss and slime as winter is just drawing to a close and not much traffic as yet.
For the first part: within 2 to 3 years, if no one climbs them (perhaps even if they do) they will be overgrown and reclaimed. Up here, you can be walking in the woods, stop to take a drink of water, and only by seeing a stone arch structure in the moss right there that you realize was once a road that is now overgrown and 99 percent invisible.
2nd part: on the money Studly.
But that's here, this area. I always appreciated being able to leave my car, walk up to a random cliff in the Sierra not in any guidebook and climb it ground up both seeing no sign of people and leaving no sign of our passing. But that's there, not the Pac NW/Squamish.
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