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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 13, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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Has anybody had good (or any) results with any nutritional supplements for nerve regeneration?
I've heard all kinds of things might help (octocosanol, trimethylglycine (TMG), B12, Ashawaganda, etc., etc.)...
Just thought I'd throw this out there - after searching the net it all gets kind of overwhelming. I'm especially interested in nerve damage and regeneration from spinal cord injuries but also anything else related.
Or treatments like accupuncture, magnets, trigger point massage, etc. ?
Thanks in advance, jb
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 13, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Not a good outlook John, is it sensory or motor? The medical field generally says (as I'm sure you've already researched)after about 6 months fa geta 'bout it!
Once worked with this MVA client that had motor nerve damage(foot/ankle) and after about 18 months post started to get some movement back in certain planes. Used a combination of active assisted, resistive and electrical stim to get things "moving", but even that was minimal. It could have been latent movement that just had to be reminded to get moving, or it could have been the treatments...hard to say. If it's sensory....I have no experience with that other than the longer it's been since the incident, the less likely a good outcome.
Shoot me an email or call bro, we can talk.
Good luck in gathering some good info that is helpful.
Peace
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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Yes
Ghee, purified gold and silver. I have the stuff and only one guy on this planet knows how to make it.
You can't buy it anywhere except from this guy. I lost contact with him. It's and ancient Ayurvedic formula with vedic mantras injected into it also.
A lot of good that does you now, eh ..... :-)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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Werner,
Yes I have tried Etherium Gold. It's supposed to be an ORME, Orbitally Rearranged Mono-atomic Element, gold powder but who knows. I bought it on the internet.
I have read incredible things about gold but when it comes to getting the "real" stuff, I have no idea - there's a lot of claims out there on the net and it's hard to decipher what to try.
Want to sell me a dime bag? or trade for some "golden shooz" ?
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Apr 13, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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the usual western medicine approach doesn't see a good rehab for nerve regeneration. But restoring nerve function and healing muscular skeletal symptoms (and others) is the basic premise of chiropractic medicine and many other non AMA approaches. Start with a really good chiropractic referal and have a long conversation first.
or go to a QuiGong clinic in China.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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I'll try a bunch of stuff first before I let somebody "crack" my spine.... sorry, it's psychological.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 10:57pm PT
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John
Nerve regeneration requires complete cleanliness. No sex, no alcohol, no smoking, no meat eating of any kind, clean clean clean, is the mantra.
Your consciousness must become completely clean for the kundalini to rise from the lower chakras to heal. The kundalini moves through the spinal nerves.
Only then can the Ayurvedic medicines have their real effect.
A destroyed vehicle needs a complete rebuild.
Not just an oil change .....
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john hansen
climber
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Three words...
Stem cell research.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Just googled that Etherium Gold stuff .. hilarious :)
btw I'm going up to Mt. Shasta next week to meet with some Lemurians -- I'll let you know what they come up with.
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MUR
climber
A little to the left of right
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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I think Ron hit the nail on the head. I have dealt with nerve issues all my life, but they are genetic, (CMT), and I am basically SOL. What is the issue exactly? Injury induced? I'm assuming this is based in your extremities? (hands/feet?) Sometimes, what we perceive to be nerve damage, is in-fact simply a nerve bundle that is under pressure. (sorry layman's terms). Massage and trigger point has helped me a bit, but nerves are a tricky business.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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Have heard a little about transcranial magnetic stimulation being used to treat spinal cord injury but I haven't done any research. I have used a magnetic pad system meant for race horses to treat a gas embolism in my shoulder that seemed to work but I don't know if it was that or all the other crap I was doing or maybe just the heat made it feel better.
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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Check out Wake Forest and their success in growing transplantable organs. Pretty amazing.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
East SF Bay Area
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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I had Guillen Barre 10 years ago and still haven't gotten al the feeling back in my lower legs. I would love to hear whatever you find out.
BTW, JB I learned a new grip for a cut fastball, safe for all ages no strain on arm but this nasty things cuts and dives. And it's all grip no strange twisting of the arm or wrist.
JV
Martinez, CA
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
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Good info all...thanks.
B12, Cordyceps....hmmm. I've heard of other mushrooms that are good for the nervous system too?
I do feel better after I get trigger point massage in my shoulder. I pinched my C6/C7 disc and had a cervical fusion there two and a half years ago. Now it seems like there's growing weakness in my shoulder, upper arm and fingers.
It almost feels like some nerve pathways are getting pinched but I'm just guessing on that one. That also may be why the trigger point stuff seems to help the most???
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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I have had good luck with some chiropractors and terrible with others. Find a good one and sometimes you can get fixed allmost instantly. I found a guy who was on the training staff for the US olympic team and it turned my life arround. Accupunctuer just cost me a bunch of money with no real results I do have a totally diferent issue though. Most of my bad is @ the 4 &5L Totaly numb and weak left leg when it goes out.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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I have no illusions that my arm will ever be "normal" again but I'm just hoping for some kind of relief program that can help.
How about Rolfing? I was going to try that. I'm sure my posture is getting whacked out in that area.
Shiatsu?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:50pm PT
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I genuinely need to regenerate my nerve, with my new scramblers, I'm half way there...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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John
I never tried any of those treatments when I lost some
nerves in my back after taking a big fall, hit a pop bottle hidden in leaves while jogging. At first the neurologist
said I had muscular dystrophy, a genetic disease not in my family ever. But I went to physical therapy for a year doing
strength building exercises (after the accident occurred, it was difficult to lift a coffee cup with two hands). . .
I got maybe 90-95% back and it hasn't seemed to affect me any longer, but it's different than having a pinched nerve like
what you seem to be experiencing--maybe that's why the massage
is helping you. In any event, I hope you'll be doing okay.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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John:
I've compressed and fractured 3 vertabrae. They're not fused though. I'm a regular at a chiropracter anymore to the point that I can pedal a rigid singlespeed for 24 hours. I still can't climb worth a crap though.
Yeah it's nothing like you're dealing with. But if you find the right one you will see the light. No more jokes about the bottom third of med school and can bench press 200 pounds. The good ones are real good.
If you give a slideshow in Boise I'll set you up real good.
Yeah, it's psychological but so is the rope, right?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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Chief,
Good advice, sounds promising. I wish I could afford the PT - maybe Robinson needs some shooz! hahaha
TC, I'd love to give a slide show in Boise...would anybody come? heh heh... I still don't know about the "cracking" thing - that's how I got into this in the first place! yikes...
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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I would try a good chiro before putting any weird substances in my body.
The best chiro I've ever been to finally told me what they do in a language I could understand:
You damage the ligaments/tendons/muscles surrounding the spine from trauma.
Scar tissue forms at this location.
The scar tissue prevents the bones from returning to their correct position. The vertabrae should be able to move freely and return to a nuetral location, but they get out of place and the scar tissue keeps them from going back to the correct place. Since the nerves come out of small openings between the vertabrae, when the vertabrae are out of place they pinch that nerve. The pinched nerve doesn't function correctly and the muscle/organ/etc at the end of the nerve gets wrong signals. For a muscle the pinched nerve might be telling it to contract 100% of the time, or it may cause numbness or lack of strength.
The chiro pops the vertebrae back into it's correct place. The crack you hear is just nitrogen being released, like when you crack your fingers. The nerve is no longer impaired and whatever it connects to starts getting the correct signals.
Most chiros want you to come weekly for the rest of your life so they make more money. If I had the money and more importantly the time for that I'd consider it, but I just go when the pain is bad and I can't fix it myself.
I popped something out of place in my mid-thoracic from weight lifting. I had a pain that felt like someone was pinching a rib on the front of my body. I got an adjustment on my back and it went away in seconds. That made me a believer.
Then I really wrecked my back on a trampoline. For years it felt like there was a hot knife stuck in my back. After a visit to the chiro I'd be ok for a day or two. Then it would get stuck out of place again. I finally figured out how to adjust it myself by laying back on my fist. I do it about once or twice a day and it has saved me from a LOT of pain.
I mostly go to the chiro for my neck now, every couple months, since I can't fix that on my own. JB you probably have a problem with your neck too (shoulder nerves come out there), and with the fused vertabrae it will be a tricky situation. If you do try a chiro you'll want an expert for your situation, who takes x-rays and really knows their stuff.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:17pm PT
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I have read that in spinal cord injuries sometimes a syrinx can develop over time, manifesting itself in neurological deficits. These can be detected by MRI's. John, if there has really been a serious change I would see a doctor (a real one).
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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Nitrogen being released?!
From where to where?
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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Someone I know had good luck with "Atlas Therapy".
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TYeary
climber
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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Team Fusion Brother,
I hear you about the "cracking "thing. I didn't-wouldn't let that happen. I used accupuncture: it did reduce the numbness and nerve discharge pain I had down my right arm for a period after treatment. The relief , if just for a week or so, was welcome and worth it. Good but temporary results.
As said above, I'm afraid Ron's got right. Still , John, you have to persue the relief aspect even if repair is not an option.
Good luck bro.
Tony
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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I think chiro's are great too... However, given what John has been through, I can understand his trepidation at having his back cracked. Good luck, JB.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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With a fused neck you might not be able to fix the problem and can only treat the symptoms; with massage, accupuncture, etc.
Also with a fused neck if you do go to a chiro, you'll want to make sure they really know what they are doing (they've treated people with similar conditions) or they could do damage. But I would think it would be worth a try, since the problem could be below where your neck is fused and it's possible it could fix your problem 100%.
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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A follow up question on nerve degeneration issues and alcohol for those who have been through it: I have heard that alcohol can be hard on the nerves and interfere with healing, but are we talking about total abstinence, or is it possible to still have a beer or two with dinner if you avoid ever drinking more than that?
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Evel
Trad climber
Nederland
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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Yo John! I'd look into accupuncture. I cratered some years ago and broke all of my thoracic vertebrae. Compression fractures, Boy Howdy! After being told to get used to the idea of a wheelchair, I got very active in my treatment. I was lucky for sure. Found an accupuncturist that would hook-up wires and run a slight AC current into the needles. Worked for me. Oh, stay the hell away from chiropractic! And Thanks for an awesome show in Boulder! Mahalo!
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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There is a difference between nerves within the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord) and those in the peripheral nervous system. Once damaged, the CNS does not regenerate. Those outside the CNS can regenerate.
So religious / mystical nonsense aside, does alcohol help or hurt in cases of spinal cord injury ? Since CNS tissue doesn't regrow anyway, how could it hurt ? Seems to me a fair number of people with SCI continue to drink.
I personally think it's unhealthy, but that's just my opinion. I'm also told that sometimes peripheral nerves sprout and take over denervated muscle fibers. That's not something I want to hinder. And killing any more pieces of my damaged CNS sounds like a bad plan.
About the only thing that can regenerate my spinal cord is, maybe, stem cell therapy someday. Until then I'll keep trying as hard as I can with the exercises I'm doing and live as healthy as possible.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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John,
My wife was in a pretty bad car wreck a few years back. She got t-boned really hard, so hard that her head shattered her drivers side window, and the seat belt wrenched her so tightly that it tore some ligaments in between the ribs in her back. She had headaches, swelling in her neck and pain in her back. Her md had "great" advice, if you are in pain, I'll prescribe a pain killer. Typical Western medicine mindset, instead of finding out why she was in pain.
So she went to a chiropractor. She'd go once or twice a week, and get some relief from adjustment and messages, but it just wasn't getting better after several months of that.
A friend who has had back problems learned alot about accupressure and said that he might be able to help her out. He hasn't formally studied it, but is one of those individuals that just has amazingly tallented hands. He was able to find where her rib had popped out of her sternum, and showed me how to use pressure to pop that back in place. He showed me accupressure to relieve the headaches. He showed me how to message her neck when ligaments would get hung up on the processes of her vertabrae, and how to move her vertabrae back when it was out of place.
It went from where I'd have to work on her about weekly to now maybe once a month her vertabrae will be out of place of something will get hung up on the processes of the vertabrae. None of this is as rough as a chiropractor popping one back in place or rolfing. What's suprising to me is how something that gets hung up in the neck or ribs can cause pain in other locations. I imagine there have to be some decent accupressurists in so-cal. I'll ask my buddy if he knows of any, as the person that taught him accupressure moved out of state.
PS,
I just gave him a call. He doesn't know of any accupressurists in so-cal, but said that if you can find a DO (doctor of osteopathy) that knows the wave, have it done. Also if you can find a message therapist that will just conentrate on your neck you should get some relief out of that.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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Yeah John the trigger point stuff is good. Way back when you had tons of cervical tightness, how's that issue these days? Nerves can entrap in the c-spine from...inflammation, compression, external/internal fixators, as well as within the muscles that the nerve follows all the way to termination. Interesting how you mentioned this has progressed(degressed) to weakness in the shoulder and hand. Look at loosening the cervical muscles, upper traps, infraspinatus and subscapularis. In particular the later two can cause a lot of false positive schit in the shoulder. My offer stills stands from the original incident, if you need help and I can be of any assistance, the treatments are on me. One treatment isn't going to help either, you most likely have accumulated tightness that needs addressing from the neck all the way to the hand. Still got that funky numbess? The weakness I would bet is being caused by a compression of one or more nerves that innervate the shoulder and arm(C4-T1). I don't remember the weakness being one of your original complaints. I can understand your hesitation with manipulation of the spine...don't want to or can't manipulate a fixed area, but movement around the area might not be a bad thought. We should get together Chico and talk about this. But in the mean time, get your theracane and dig away at the mid and upper traps and the infraspinatus/teres minor/major.
The longer you let it manifest the harder it will be to correctly address the causes Bro!
Peace
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:31pm PT
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Werner - Why not just come out and say it... "Just believe in God and all your problems will fade away!"
LOL
Sorry, just saw something funny and felt the need to point it out..
I have no cure for Nerve Regeneration.. I've been diagnosed with MS, so.... from what I've been able to pick up (like you, the net is overwhelming as heck).
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
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Nothing besides stem cell (animal studies) has shown any real promise in regenerate actual spinal cord injuries or injuries to your anterior horn cells/motor neurons in your spinal cord, If your injury was outside the spinal cord to the nerve root, plexus or peripheral nerve there is a change of regeneration, but it can be spotty, because of how axons regenerate. One technique that I have used that may be helpful if your injury is outside the spinal cord is nerve gliding.
A lot of info on the web about nerve gliding, fairly easy to do.
I think Werner’s diet suggestions would help everyone, at least for a time, not sure about the no sex part…….
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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All advice is good.... I'm filtering everything and really appreciate you sharing your experiences.
Ron,
I think you're right. My neck is just getting tighter and tighter and there's probably some nerve compression going on there. I wish I could afford a damn PT to loosen things up (maybe a PT who needs climbing shooz! yeah!)... The Theracane seems to relieve a lot of the tension - it's all in the shoulder girdle and scapula area - but it's hard to relax enough when you administer treatment to yourself. I think the stiffness and compression and scarring are building up more and more myself. I was almost doing better the first year after the accident than I am now.
No more fundraisers for me - you guys have done way too much already and I will never forget you all and your tremendous generosity. Anyway, there are others here that need help far more than me. Rhyang for one could benefit from a big ole fundraiser. Tarbuster too...
Tony, fellow Team Fusion Member, thanks for the anecdote about accupuncture. I've tried a little but the whole needle thing always makes me faint (yes I'm a lightweight when it comes to needles). I do like accupressure and trigger point stuff, which seems to help a lot.
Good stuff y'all... thx, jb
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 14, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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John,
It doesn't sound like it's nerve degeneration so much as the nerves being pinched.
You need to make a slide show North and I could get you hooked with my buddy. You'd mentioned coming up to heliboard, the snows starting melt, better whip the dolphins up ;)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
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TP,
I don't think it's degeneration at all. After I ruptured the C6/C7 I lost a lot of strength in my left triceps, forearm, and rear shoulder. My Doctor said it would grow back at about 1 mm per day - about 18 months total. It's been 2 1/2 years now so I'm guess all the nerve regeneration has been accomplished.
Others who've been through similar stuff say no, more will come back. I just want to help it along if it is at all possible.
AK slideshow? who would come? hahahaha
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ninjah
Big Wall climber
a van down by the river
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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I for one, shoot, many of us taco users would like to see one more show from you john, your pics and storys need to be told, there's just too many wieners out there that carry there courage in a rucksac and need to see the man,the legend, john b and the superhuman feats and mastery inthe vertcal world that most just can't understand, I for one am ispired by the sight of you hikeing my new projects, climbing in complete control and useing half the protection needed or soloing, you are a real man above mice!
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spectreman
Trad climber
CO
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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Low Level Laser and Infrared can help with the regeneration. I have treated several people with severe nerve damage and have seen pretty good results. We also use muscle/nerve stimulators and plain old fashioned exercise for the muscles innervated by the damaged nerve.
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spectreman
Trad climber
CO
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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I just read a bit more of this thread. If the nerve root is still being compressed as it exits the spine then you will have continued weakness and problems in the corresponding muscles. You also risk more permanent nerve injury. If the nerve is being pinched or compressed then the muscles in the neck and upper shoulder will reflexively spasm to try and protect the damaged area. THis only makes the problem worse and you get in a terrible cycle. Treating the muscles alone will not generally stop the spasm and tightness because there is the underlying problem. You really need to decompress the nerve with some sort of mechanical traction or skilled mobilization. Pure spinal manipulation may not be indicated with your history. If you lived in Colorado I would be happy to treat you for free! Stop by if your in the area. I'm a PT in private practice in Ft. Collins.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 09:03pm PT
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Specterman, thanks. I think you're right about the compression, tightness, and overall guarding. I'm tight as a rock in that area.
Low level infrared or laser? Are there any devices sold online I could try that you know of?
Right now I use a lot of heat packs to loosen things up - doesn't last too long.
ninjah, thanks for the compliments. I've seen my slides too many times to believe anyone else wants to look at that stuff..hahahha cheers, jb
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spectreman
Trad climber
CO
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Apr 14, 2009 - 09:17pm PT
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You can buy infrared devices online. The problem with the home devices and the cheaper units is the amount of power output. It is usually quite low and the therapuetic benefit would be decreased. Clinical models used in hospitals and PT practices are very expensive. I think the unit we have in our practice was around $5,000.
If there is still mechanical pressure on the nerve root then an infrared or laser device will be of limited benefit. You would only use it to try and help heal a damaged nerve. If you were going to spend some money I would think about a one time consulatation with a skilled manual physical therapist or chiropractor and then discuss options for home traction devices if the problem is compression. SOme home traction units are really inexpensive but can actually help.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 14, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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spectreman, I'd like to get together with you, have a beer(or whatever)and talk. Good point about the muscles reflective response, I think some problems are manifested by this tightening and compression...and then refer pain to another sight along the chain. Keep the posts coming I'll look forward to hearing yer point of view!
Peace
John when the trout are biting, let me know and I'll swing by! Got to loosen things up again, THEN get the quality movement back.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 14, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Ron,
I like saw a ten foot trout the other day in the Gorge. It was real hungry looking too.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 14, 2009 - 11:35pm PT
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I'll be there in about 6 hours! Jump in and chum the waters, the chilly water temps will reduce the swelling on yer brain and the thrashing about to find shore should loosen the neck and shoulders up just fine! The Gorge DOES have some fine fishin', Peters got pretty much the same story on the fish...maybe not ten feet, but he does spy some nice specimens in the middle Gorge from up on the routes! We'll "hook" up soon Bro!
Peace
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Dr. Josh
Boulder climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Apr 17, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Looking at the nerve system, you need to look at essential nutrients. Calcium for bone, protein (amino acids) for muscle and the omega 3 fats for the nerves. I would up your intake of fish oil (high DHA & EPA) to around 1000-2000mg a day. This does increase free radicals in the body so the cheapest and best antioxidant is Alpha Lipoic Acid it is water and fat solvable. It would be better to include N-Acetyl-L Cysteine and Co Q 10 also. This will increase the energy of the cells, metabolism which in turn increases the healing capacity of the cells.
To get a complete package it tends to be expensive, so choose depending on budget and how fast you want to heal.
Check with local practitioners who check for nerve entrapments in the muscles. The could also impinge on the healing.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 17, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Good advice from spectreman and Dr. Josh.
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Chip
Trad climber
Wilmington, DE
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Apr 17, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Sex. Over and over again. May take many years to fully recover.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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John,
Very important to get the diagnosis right as first step. Nerve compression is one thing, actual damage is another. Further, you symptoms of weakness actually could be unrelated to nerve function, as strange as that sounds. Body does a variety of perverse things after major injuries, some in short term, some in long. A good orthopedist and MRI should be your first stop. He/she will check your mobility, nerve response, muscle position, posture and a host of things to lead to a diagnosis.
In best case, you then may be helped by good PT who will do some mobilization, devise proper exercises and continually monitor you for progress and routine changes. Worst case, they may find scar tissue impingement on nerves and go in and remove it. Worst, worst case, you may have some permanent nerve damage, but even there I know from experience you can recover quite a long way, over time.
My case was not unlike yours, but different body part. I had a failed fusion surgery (bone did not grow in where 2 disks were removed, so I have just cadaver bone replacement and hardware holding me together) of two disks in my lower back (L4-L5, L5-S1. I spent three years in bed 20 hrs per day with pain managed only by narcotics, had lots of leg weakness like you describe (I think worse, frankly) and a host of other complications from being down so long. But tests showed no nerve damage in spite of scar tissue – well, some but not severe. Some docs thought, this won't get much better. But others thought PT could wake up muscles my brain had shut off (one of the things body does in “recovery” after major injuries) and regain flexibility severely hampered by long term tightness. I found a good PT after trying several who were not right for me and after the last four years 15 hrs per week in baby step routine starting in the house, then the pool, then the gym, I am pretty damn good now. Even back to some moderate climbs, and plenty of cycling and hikes.
So, I'd pass on remedies for now (except low risk non-invasive relief stuff like massage therapy) and get at the cause as first step. I understand you don't have resources for long term body work program with a PT, but how about scraping up enough for at least the diagnostic phase?
Best to you,
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 17, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Right on Tom, the baby steps thingamajig works well. One step at a time, but finding the right cause is the KEY, only then can proper treatment be assessed. Glad you are recovering, the body does wake up and with proper movement sequences it has AMAZING rebounding ability. Keep up the work, keep moving, keep mobile and continue to get better
Peace
You've been a prime motivator for me and a lot of other climbers out there. LOVE yer routes!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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Thanks Tom. I know that initially I had some nerve damage from a ruptured C6/C7 disc and then successful fusion. I wore a neck collar for 6 months and then within another 9 months did a 5.12a. Everything was good.
Then things started getting worse. I keep guessing at what it is but in the end your words ring true - I really need to pinpoint what is happening now and try to treat it.
Thanks again for your advice, I have always admired you for your feats and wisdom (believe it or not, heh heh!).
Good luck to you - see you in the Meadows sometime soon for a few pitches I hope!
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nicolasC
climber
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Apr 19, 2009 - 07:47am PT
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Just found the thread, and wanted to chime in with my one experience.
in sept 1998, I fell 14m on a wooden floor in a gym (badly made knot which came undone when I was about to be belayed down).
I broke c2 very badly but survived, broke both wrists
I also got compression fracture on c3, d12,l1 and l2, and some herniated discs.
After 5 months of casts, some surgery and 12 months of therapy, I was able to climb and run again.
I felt so good, I went back in 2003 to playing rugby.
I got twice hurt, and developped pain in the shoulder and the slight weakness in the hand. The doctor I saw at the time did just some injections. He may have thought it was a carpal tunnel syndrom.
What I now understood is that I had developped a nerve compression at the place where the nerve exit the spine.
I was able to get very good relief from a chiropractor, (not the run-of the mill PT guy)
In Jan 07, I got very sick with something similar to the flu.
then a few days later, I got tinglings, then pains then loss of strengths from the shoulder to the end of the fingers.
Pain was atrocious for months. Atrophy of the arm and shoulder was very very noticeable.
After 9 months of multiple x-Rays, scans, electric testing, and visits to doctors and spine surgeons, I ended up finding by myself the description of the Parsonage-turner syndrom on internet.
I managed to get an appointment with the head of rare neurological diseases in France, went to see him, and bingo, he
confirmed that I had been most probably a victim of such Parsonage-turner syndrom.
The current theory about this disease is, as far as I can understand, :
For a few unlucky people, an infection may trigger an inflamation/immune reaction in the brachial nerve nexus (where nerves which exit the spine at multiples places come together before splitting again) and destroy nerves.
Once the nerves have been destroyed, there are 2 regrowth opportunities:
 growth of new nerves from the spine outward
innervation of muscles by extensions of nerves from neighbouring muscles.
Depending on the seriousness of the destruction of the nerves, the recovery if it happens can take from 2 years to 5 years.
I have so far recovered the sensory bit, but not the motor control of some muscles. my arm and shoulder look quite strange as some muscles are strong from climbing (yes, I still climb, albeit at a lower standard) and some are simply not present.
The only drug which "may" help rebuild nerves is vitamin B12.
All this to say that:
1. Nerve compression provokes tinglings and pain if the sensory nerves are impinged upon. and/or loss of strength and atrophy if the motor nerves are impacted
2.if prolonged the nerve compression can lead to permanent damage. Physical therapy can re-align vertebrae and relieve pressure. In some case, spine surgery may be necessary especially
ay if bone growth occur in the little conducts through which nerves exit the spine or if the disc is so compressed that the conduct is made too small.
3. an nerve which is pressured is inflammed. an inflammed nerve takes more room, A nerve which wants to take more room in a cosntricted conduct is pressured even more , => vicous circle which sets up the scene for a chronic condition. An anti-inflamation drug which can eb taken for a long time is often prescribed (such as Ibuprofen)
4. and this is my interpretation, a inflammed nerve can be the bed for a more serious condition, such as the Parsonage-Turner condition or any of the very rare neurological condition.
So my reccomendation to Bachar:
a/ Get checked for nerve integrity (i will try to find the exact english name for this procedure)
B/ keep on eating B12
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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nicolasC.
Thanks for sharing your experience. That's a harrowing story, I wish you further success in the future.
Very good info for me too, thanks much. Points 2 & 3 really hit home for me...
"2.if prolonged the nerve compression can lead to permanent damage. Physical therapy can re-align vertebrae and relieve pressure. In some case, spine surgery may be necessary especially ay if bone growth occur in the little conducts through which nerves exit the spine or if the disc is so compressed that the conduct is made too small.
3. an nerve which is pressured is inflammed. an inflammed nerve takes more room, A nerve which wants to take more room in a cosntricted conduct is pressured even more , => vicous circle which sets up the scene for a chronic condition. An anti-inflamation drug which can eb taken for a long time is often prescribed (such as Ibuprofen) "
It makes me wonder if after time a successful fusion can become "overgrown" with new bone material and start to impinge on the nerves emanating form the spine - the very ones that were pinched in the initial disc rupture?
I also wonder if after time, general muscular "tightness" and loss of mobility in the affected area can cause nerve impingement? For me that would be in the neck and shoulder girdle.
Thanks again, good luck.
See ya' at the crags, jb
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 19, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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Hi John- some very good advice here regarding PTs and nerve regeneration. I'm a PT student, so I'm not able to help you yet, but I might suggest that if you have a PT school nearby, swing by and see if they need victi--- er, practice cases. My school here in San Diego (usa.edu) recruits people from the community so that we students can have experience with the actual pathology we're studying. At no time are we allowed to perform any procedures that have potential to cause further damage. Our professors, who are very experienced PTs, do the hands on stuff in those cases.
Just a suggestion. And yes, the bone can grow (osteophytes) and impinge on the nerve roots (stenosis). Good luck!
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Coldfinger
Mountain climber
Bethany, CT
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Apr 19, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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I have had remarkable results from a chiropractor trained in the "Gonstead Method" and have also dealt with some quacks who did more harm than good. Also you might find a Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) practicioner/ Qi Gong healer on the West Coast. TCM has a very different model of how the body works and I have had good results on an issue that western medicine could not address. Good luck
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Apr 19, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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I have heard climbing stories about mushrooms and energy.
They may have been on top rope so I'm not certain about
the nerves.
I don't know of any places to trigger for gold at this
time. I'll look more into those noted injuries to determine
outcome.
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nicolasC
climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 04:55am PT
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Hi Bachar,
The medical tests you should undergo are called
electromyography and nerve conduction tests.
They are often used to affirm/infrim the carpal tunnel syndrom.
In Electromyography, a neurologist will be using very little needles to detect the electrical activity of the nerves and the muscles, both on a scope and with aural feedback. Depending how the muscles are innerved, the activity will be different: if the muscles are well innerved, the signals will be "loud and clear", if the nerves are very damaged, the muscles will host fluttery signals of self activity, if the nerves are beign regrown from neighbouring muscles, the signals will be again different, etc.
In nerve conduction tests, the doctor will quantify the activity in the brain which is triggered by very small electrical pulses done through the little needles. Through various measures of the quality of signal transmission, and the speed at which it travels while changing the point where the pulses are applied, he can pinpoint where the nerves are compressed and by how much.
Both tests are not really painful, just not confortable.
Regarding X_ray and RMN and 3D vizualization, the diagnosis is quite difficult. there are some patients which have very little openings for the nerves to pass and almost no nervous symptoms, and you have patients which have average clearance and yet suffer from nerve pinching.
I have another story to share with you, whioch exhibit some positive things about nerves and getting back to full fucntionning.
First: One word of caution: be very wary of muscle relaxant drugs.
The first and second specialist I saw had misdiagnosed my neck-shoulder pain and got me to take a lot of muscle relaxant.
As I was cleaning the garage, I bend over to pick up a paper, I displaced a lumbar vertebrae. The pain was agonizing despite the morphine I was taking for my Parsonage-Turner (yet undiagnosed).
I ended up having to see yet another doctor for this sciatiq nerve, whch was burning up my leg from the knee upward. I was extraordinarly concerned beause I became unable to walk upstairs 2 steps at the time. I saw part of the quadriceps muscle of the leg disappear on the same side as my arm which was shrinking.
The diagnosis of the surgeon was easy to make (I was dragging my feet, I had lost nerves sensitivity and msucle control on my feet, etc). The X-Rays were clear-cut. It was a matter of fusing the vertebrae back in place and letting enough room for the nerve.
Yet I did postpone the surgery (I did not know which one was most importnant, neck or lumbar), stopped the relaxant, went to see my chiropractor for my lumbar area and increased the Ibuprofen to relieve the inflammation while keeping B12.
After a few weeks,the lumbar troubles began to recede, I regain the sensitivity of my foot, I regain the control of the muscle. After a few moe weeks, I had almost regain the thighs muscles.
My understanding was: the chiro (he holds the chair of chiro at the state university) was able to put back the vetebrae in palce, thus relieving the pressure. Ibuprofen reduced the inflammation. b12 MAY have helped the nerve rebuild.
what was key was probably the limited time (2 weeks before the visit to the chiro) during which the nerve was damaged.
Disclosure: I have absolutely no finacial ties with Ibuprofen industry. It is not a miracle drug, yet it is a strong anti-inflamation / anti-pain drug with good tolerance. I have taken it at large dose for long period of time (with suitable blood tests). It exist as a generic drug (thus quite cheap).
This is what got me to think by myself about my own neck-shoulder-arm troubles. I learned much more than I ever wanted to know about nerve conditions. After a lot of researching, I self-diagnosed myself as a Parsonage-Turner victim.
I am well aware of the risks of self-diagnosis. this is why I am sharing with you not the symptoms, but the scientific investigation tests that a doctor should conduct to affirm/infirm a proper diagnostis.
The last year consensus among the neurologists I have consulted is:
1 says No,
1 says maybe,
2 says above my head, very rare condition, we'll go with the specialist advice,
2 says definitely yes, among which the head of the national rare nreve diseases taskforce, who is the ONe guy who gets to see most of the cases...
Of course, You may have noticed that I take pride in having understood the troubles I am suffering from.
Please understand that it was the only way I could find to "compensate" for my loss. By understanding, I was no longer a victim, I was stronger than my illness.
My arm can let me down, My leg can drag me down, but my brain is still there. Muscles don't define me, it is what I do that matters.
Through dedication, research and understanding, I affirm myself above the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
My wishes for recovery go to you, Bachar
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Apr 20, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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I went to Main Place Mall in Orange CA. to look for
a alpinist store. I found none, however on the 2'nd
floor there was a free Nerve Regeneration test being
conducted with the use of a 36" monitor showing
the spinal cord, which is hooked to a black box to
receive pressure inputs for visual output to the
digital imaged spinal cord vertebrae's and disc.
Dr. Victor Baez said he did not mind if I noted
his name, business address being 630 S. Glassel
Suite 102, phone number 714-454-3421and email
drvictorbaez@gmail.com also noting he specializes
in Spinal Cord injuries. He stated you may have a
$20.00 analysis as part of the promotional price
which is more than the test noted above.
Open Distal Radius Fracture.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm130/midarockjock/odrf80.jpg
5 weeks 90 degree cast almost up to my shoulder.
Take note of the scar at my wrist. 5 weeks in a straight
cast up to my elbow, and then a velcro cast. I did the
Muir trail at this time with later. Fractured Fissure came
a few months after completing the trail and sin pizza
con ongos. I had 2 tko's up to this time, 10 counts and
beyond occured after this operation.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Apr 20, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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John,
I think you are right to wonder about "new bone material starting to impinge on the nerves ..." and if "muscular tightness and loss of mobility in the affected area can cause nerve impingement?" You might add possible impingement of scar tissue.
But all goes back to the same point: these things can be diagnosed and ruled out or in by nerve tests discussed on the thread (how I found out about my nerve situation too), MRI and other tests. Bone spur and scar tissue removal is possibility if these are problems. Of course, as another poster says some people get by with some impingement and some nerve damage without operations and just the right kind of regular PT and/or "manipulation." I’m doing OK with a bunch of scar tissue revealed in an MRI, but only with a continuous maintenance regime. That may not work for the next person.
Problem is without that diagnosis in hand, you can't go on to make a good call about a promising treatment regime, which usually involves the least invasive approach first and any operation as a last resort (unless impingement is very obvious, dangerous and easily removed).
Sure hope you get some tests.
Best,
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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