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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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I am pretty sure, from reading some other forums, they are identical to the Leeper cam hooks. I believe TMoses got the plans and go ahead from the man himself. Im going to get myself a set o' wides to play with.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Funny you should ask.
I made them as identical to Leepers as I possibly could. Right down to the "pinched" tip and hard heat treatment. Why mess with perfection. The man knew his stuff when he designed them. I like to think it is a tribute to his genius that no one (including myself) could find no real way to improve it.
I have talked to Ed numerous times. He is a trip to talk to. His approach was highly scientific. We get to talking about metal and an hour goes by.
Mountain Tools has them in stock. I handed them to Larry at the Rockpile Rendezvous.
Mountain Gear should have gotten theirs today.
Mountain Shop in Yosemite might get theirs next week some time.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:53am PT
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You'll be hard pressed to find someone who has given them a real working over. I got them back from heat treat on Friday.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Make sure you load test them with two guys jumping on them.
We did this when Russ (Fish) first batch of big hooks came back from the heat treating. Me and Middendorf both together loaded the hook and it broke in half.
The whole batch did that to Russ's jaw dropping shock.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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scary!
side note...
the mgear site is using 'leeper' branded hooks for the image...
someone needs to shoot some pics for T
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Werner,
Me thinks that stuff was REALLY HARD! You cross a threshold when hard stops being "strong" and starts being brittle. The Cam Hooks are still on the "strong" side.
Betcha Russ was knott happy!
Russ could have sent them back and had them re-temper them.
Mgear should shoot their photos soon. Now that they have something to shoot.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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Nice looking Beak--how much?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:52am PT
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"Russ could have sent them back and had them re-temper them."
I don't think there was anything to retemper. The entire batch failed and were all broken.
Right Deuce4 ?
Anyways I agree with Chris Mc that they are lifesavers and essential modern aid tools.
Thanks, T Moses
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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They look great but I still have my original one's from Leeper that are 30 years old.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:57am PT
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Tell us a story uncle Tmoses. Tell me about the beaks, huh huh!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:14am PT
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Hi Werner-
I can't quite recall the specifics. I think Russ's original design--the ones we broke-- were made out of angle iron, in replication of the old Ring Angle pitons, which were, of course, the finest big hooks ever!
That's when Walt and I suggested just to make big hooks like a large version of the Chouinard hook, only thicker, which is what Russ did next.
Russ's original V-angle hooks were too brittle. I reckon they might have been able to be retempered, but the problem might have been then they would have been less strong, and would probably have bent under load. They weren't thick enough.
Rule of thumb with steel: hard=strong in tensile but possible very brittle, and less strong in bending. Tempering actually weakens the material, but makes it much more tough and able to withstand impact without snapping.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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Thanks John
All I remember is me testing that first hook and then you jumping on it too.
Snap! Russ blowing his mind, and then going back to LA the next day or so to start over again.
Remember? when he first wanted to make the hook from my bike frame?
He saws my bike frame in half and bends it into the hook form. We go over to the boulder and the stupid thing just bends back instantly useless.
Hahahaha
Sorry for hijacking your thread T Moses.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 10, 2009 - 04:41am PT
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Theron is all about this gear issue. He's like a New Chouinard - a latter-generation inventive climber guy who is making the rare gear that people want and need.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 10, 2009 - 05:38am PT
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Theron=Moses?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2009 - 05:40am PT
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Theron, didn't you say Ed was doing everything on manual rigs - maybe worth describing that aspect of Ed's approach and thinking...
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 10, 2009 - 06:24am PT
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What are you state-siders doing up so late?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 10, 2009 - 06:54am PT
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John, right now, the full moon just came out, after a storm system moved East, and the sky cleared.
And we like it.
Sometimes, you have to stay up late . . .
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Apr 10, 2009 - 07:05am PT
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yep, same moon over here, too. It's upside down, though.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 10, 2009 - 07:12am PT
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Ah, but, you know, where these good things come are from?
It is California .. .. . .
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2009 - 07:27am PT
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Coding...
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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Any plans to make Logan Hooks? How about real Z Pitons (not the Pika crap ones)? Sounds like the future of Fish Hooks is in doubt, would you consider making them too?
For those who have tried them, does the A5 Beak have any advantages over the BD Pecker?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 10, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Holy Moses, Deucey - his first name is Theron. And I emphatically concur with Tom - Theron Moses makes truly fine stuff.
Especially Russian Aiders, with the best hook design ever, the prototype of which needed only a few minor modifications. And which I would really really love to try in Yosemite on Monday May 18 [HINT].
And if a couple cam hooks happened to arrive in the same package with said russkies, I would actually be willing to give them a try, since I will be climbing a route for a change where I don't think I'll be too scared to use them!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
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So... 1976... Did Leeper get some inspiration? When did his come out?
EDIT: Gotta go help an old lady right now... will make a better scan later so you can read the text.
Edit^2: Hope this scan looks better now.
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sbecker
Sport climber
Meff-ferr, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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I just ordered some yesterday... along with some dmm offset brassies!!!
w00t!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 10, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Glad they are on the market again! Guess I shouldn't have hoarded so many off eBay!
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Werd
Trad climber
Bay area
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Quick Q: which is the best size for the Yos trade routes--med or lg? I've been waiting to get my hands on a pair for a while!
Thanks
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 10, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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Medium, but if you are getting 2 I'd get one of each. I carry 2ea.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 10, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Duece, $12.00 I think. I only do wholesale. Mountain Tools has all of those. I made a very small batch.
Munge,not to much of a story to tell. The beaks were more of a "fun" project. They weren't available and I was pretty sure I could make them. The CNC Plasma cutter does a fair job of cutting them out. Getting the geometry right was a real trick with access to only three small ad photos. I finally borrowed one when I learned a part time partner had a few. That was after I had already cut some out. It is a really cool design. The simpleness has its own beauty and have always been a function over form kind of guy. I never have intended to reproduce a lot of them. The Tomahawks (Minerals design, which you have seen) will replace those in my line up shortly.
Cool to hear the stories of how stuff gets developed. I had a similair experience with some wire rivet hangers that I was experimenting with. They broke when you bounce tested them.
Tom, I think a modern Chouinard is a little bit of a stretch. I am not in that league, but thanks.
Healyje, yeah Ed was doing it all with foot powered machinery! I guess it kept him in shape for the long approaches. His electric bills were pretty low too. When I asked him if he had any prints or drawings he said: "No, all I have is these little bits of metal". He used an old school approach of using templates instead of dimensioned drawings. I am in no way knocking any of the methods he used. I think it's really cool that he was able to produce the quantities he did in the manner he did. Kind of like free soloing versus aid climbing. They both might get you to the same point but the experience is a little different. The man had a highly scientific approach to developing the hooks in the first place. Ed did a lot testing also. Some of the stuff just happened to be the right blend by chance. The fragile flake hooks come with a softer outer layer of aluminum that help it to "bite" into the rock. This happened because that was th way that particular metal is available. One of those unintended (but beneficial) consequences.
Ihate...that is a really interesting article. My understanding is that is about the time Ed was developing the Cam Hooks. I'll have to ask him about that.
Werd, Lambone has it right. Narrows are most used. I would definitely get one of each wide and narrow. Two of each is even better. It lets you do consecutive hook moves. Buy a whole lot so I can put my kids through a good college. Just kidding, not making a killing at this. Ask Duece about making a living at making climbing stuff. This is a side business for me. Keeps me up late into the night slaving away in the shop.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 10, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
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oh yeah, Tomahawks, that's what I want to hear about.
/me salivates
Thx Chouina... er I mean Theron
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Apr 10, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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T Moses, have you given Nomad Ventures a call? We could use some more, but we don't do very big orders. Hit us up on monday, 760-747-8223. I'd be interested to talk Bruce into picking up some! Ran out of cam hooks the day after we got Leepers' letter in the mail.
Greg
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 11, 2009 - 02:23am PT
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I ordered mine yesterday. TMoses gave me the heads up a few weeks ago when I started a thread about getting my aid rack to join the century.
Many, many thanks for reviving their manufacture.
John
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Apr 11, 2009 - 08:50am PT
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Gary Polizzotto from Bloomfield NJ probably fashioned these Hangitals to fend off car jackers in the late 70's. I figure he was leading something like Nurse's Aid in the Gunks and was looking for some gear above the roof, when he reached into his pocket and found his anti-carjack device. In a desparation move, Gary probably flinged it into a horizontal crack, clipped it and took a rest. The Hangital was invented.
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Indianclimber
Trad climber
Lost Wages
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Apr 11, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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Gear bump
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Apr 11, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Any chance of making the cam hooks like Pika's with the Right Angle instead of the curve? These work way better for splitter sandstone .
-Jesse
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 12, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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Werner: You are welcome to come oogle the machinery anytime you are in the area. If you can ever get out of that big ugly ditch you work in. ;)
Jesse: Hmm..possible. I haven't aided any sandstone. I thought it was taboo to use cam hooks because it breaks the edge of the crack.
The handful of beaks I made are at Mountain Tools.
Cam Hooks hanging to dry after a dip in corrosion inhibiter:
Cam Hook blanks:
Thanks to Erik for really working these out. It was his tough job to go field test them. Poor guy!
Totally forgot to credit Larry at Mountain Tools with the cool photo of the Cam Hooks and stuff!
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 12, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Re: Tomahawks.
Working on them right now (literally just took a break from it).
Building the taper fixture:
It should take about a month from start to finish before the first batch is available for your climbing pleasure. Expect mid May.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 12, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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Theron
Thanks for great update & photos.
Ah .... the sweet smell of cutting oil .....
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 12, 2009 - 02:28am PT
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The smell of cutting oil late at night.
The sound of parts in the tumbler and Hendrix cranked over the top of it.
The feel of a finished part.
Sweet.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 12, 2009 - 10:46am PT
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Deus ex machina= T Moses?!? Is this climbing gear direction for your shop an expanding enterprise?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 12, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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"The smell of cutting oil late at night.
The sound of parts in the tumbler and Hendrix cranked over the top of it.
The feel of a finished part.
Sweet."
That post made me smile. You gotta love the passion. Go Theron Go!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Apr 12, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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This is so cool.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Apr 12, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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Wait, no arguing about politics? Religion?
This thread belongs on the 3rd or 4th page!
Thanks for what you do T. Moses.
Prod.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 12, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Not sure how you mean that Steve. An unexpected ending that wraps things up nicely for me or the climbing community? If it's me then no. I've been tinkering and building a small product line since '05 when Erik aproached me with the rivet hangers. Little by little. Lots of little refinements. I don't ever expect to go big. Just niche stuff.
Munge:
The pics at Mgear are the same because not much has changed. Eagle eye there though.
Thanks for the complements. Just doing what I do, nothing special.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 14, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Tomahawks will be available in three different versions – standard, right, and left. The right and left versions are intended for corners.
Tomahawk design by Bryan Law; production by Theron Moses.
Final prototypes:
Right, standard, and left
Right
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Apr 14, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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Very cool thread! Sweet design on the Tomahawks Minerals. TMoses what a great project.
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yo
climber
I drink your milkshake!
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Apr 15, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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Those lefties and righties have a nice look to em, no doubt.
Yo BLaw, don't think I told ya, finally got to turn the key on the Tomahawk launch, haha. Perfecto. Actually it was on a Rasmussen route - isn't he your roommate or something? It's the circle of life! Anyway, cheers brother.
PS: Theron is an arteest.
Also: Nailing is naughty. Does your son or daughter nail on wall routes? Maybe you should turn off the TV and talk to them to find out. The more you know...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2009 - 03:58am PT
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Minerals and Theron - beautiful work, just beautiful. I'd take two of each whenever they do become available.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Apr 15, 2009 - 11:05am PT
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Add me to that list. Selling direct or only through MtTools?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 15, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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those look awesome!
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Apr 15, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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Awesome looking clean aid gear!
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Apr 15, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Beeeeutiful.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 15, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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soooo swanky cool
Tmoses-proto-reality-bending-hook
TPRBH?
not quite the right ring as RURP, but still bad azzz!
BLAW Hook?
BLAWLESS Hook?
getting there...
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sweatyballs
Trad climber
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Apr 15, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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Fantastic Forum Topic... Thanks to all!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 15, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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Nice, Bryan.
Is the head hole for help with cleaning it if hammered? Room for a small quicklink to funkness cable?
If more buried, like RURPs on the Triple Cracks, it might be nice to have a "dog leash clip" style wire hook, good for a few hundred pounds, which could fit into the RURP hole and assist in cleaning fixed RURPs or Tomahawks.
But something with a smaller profile, no swivel and more strength would be best.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 16, 2009 - 03:06am PT
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Cam Hooks hanging to dry after a dip in corrosion inhibiter:
Is that done in a hot salt bath, to produce the black oxide?
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Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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I got my Moses Cam Hooks from Mountain Gear and went straight out to my local crumbly beach cliff to try them out.
The come in three sizes:
Mini - $7.95
Narrow - $8.95
Wide - $9.95
Shipping from mountain gear was $4.95 and they took 2 business day to arrive.
I bought the Narrow and Wide. I found that the Mini Leeper Cam Hook just never was that useful. There were only a handful of times I remember using it on El Cap. I would say only get Mini Moses if you are doing some cutting-edge clean aid and want every possible tool. Otherwise, I find that the narrow size works 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time i use the wide. So if you can only buy one, get the narrow.
After the Moses Cam Hooks arrived, i pulled out my old Leeper Cam Hooks for a size by side comparison. But i couldn't find my wide Leepers...Doh! ( If anyone is borrowing them from me, please return to me.)
Ok, so for this comparison we will only be looking at the Narrow size... which is cool because that is the most useful size anyway.
As you can see, in the photos below they are pretty much identical. Only by very care comparison can you tell that the bend is only slightly different, the eye on the moses is a little smaller, and moses is a little shorter... but they are essentially identical.
HOW DID THEY COMPARE?
In full disclosure, i was testing in crappy coastal rock. A real test is necessary in granite, where these will generally be used. I will do that next week on El Cap. So for now, this is just a "first look" report.
In bigger cracks, the Moses cam hooks worked just as well as the Leepers. Sweet!
I then put them both in some pretty crappy shallow placements:
Here i discovered that the Leepers did hold a little better. What? How could this be? They are almost identical, right?
I was pretty surprised at first. Even a little worried. But then i noticed a key difference:
As you can see in the photo, the edges of my Leeper Cam hook are worn down. (I am pretty sure they started out just as square as the Moses edges). Just that little difference made the Leeper more secure in a few super tenuous spots.
So is it time to file down my Moses cam hook a little to make it more like the Leeper? Not yet. Like I said, this was crappy ocean rock. not an ideal test environment. Ill go to Yosemite next week and let you guys know how they turn out... in the mean time, i will still be looking for my missing wide leeper!!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Apr 19, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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Hey, thanks all!
Nice field-testing on the cam hooks, Chris! The bent versions of the Tomahawk are designed for use in corners – the top bend allows for greater hammer contact and reduces glancing blows when placing the piece and the bottom bend provides clearance for the cable, so that it doesn’t get pinched between the stem and the rock and start to fray. The bottom bend is not intended to add camming action. I have tried to stay away from any significant camming action with a beak-type piton of this size and am not sure, but think that the “blade” of a Tomahawk, Beak, Pecker, etc. is the wrong shape, too thin, and not strong enough to be seriously torqued on – compare the metal thickness between beaks and cam hooks. Any engineer types out there have any comments on this? As far as clean placements go, the Tomahawk was designed to be used as a hook in beak scars or constrictions in thin cracks, and has better hooking action than a #1 Pecker or Beak.
“Is the head hole for help with cleaning it if hammered? Room for a small quicklink to funkness cable?”
Clint, the “hole in the head” is mostly for tying-off the Tomahawk if it is placed in a horizontal crack. The hole can also be used to “funk” the Tomahawk out but I hadn’t thought of using a quick-link – just webbing. Great idea! Although it is possible to use a funkness device for cleaning, the Tomahawk was designed with several hammering surfaces, which make it much easier to clean and reduces the chance of it becoming fixed. A funkness device should be used gently and as a last resort, to preserve the placement for future use. A “pull tab” made of 1/2" tie-off webbing can be threaded through the hole to assist in the removal of hammerless placements.
3/16” quick-link, $1.97 at Home Depot.
Back to your regularly scheduled cam hook program…
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Apr 19, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Stellar new aid gear!
I still have a couple Beaks hanging around.
But the Tomahawks will be better than my amputated Crack-N-Ups because like Bryan mentioned, in the corner, your hammer bounces off the wall!!!
So big thanks to Theron & Bryan!!
Thor
P.S. I always try to hand place aid gear first before breaking Mjolnir out!
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Apr 22, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
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A continuation of the previous back story behind the cam hooks:
I have to give Larry at Mountain Tools a big thanks for his initiation of the process. He put me in contact with Ed Leeper and also helped me source the material. I couldn’t find the right thickness for the narrow cam hook. A genuinely nice guy and he has kept the needs of us climbers in mind. I forgot to credit Larry with the really nice pic I posted at the begining of the thread, sorry!
Thanks to Chris for bringing this up. I look forward to the field testing . Hopefully the weather holds for you to get up some rock. Your cam hook has seen some serious use! Mine pictured below has seen some light use.
The differences that Chris pointed out are very subtle. Leeper made all his hooks by hand using template pieces for measurement. It is an old school method that allows for a little variation in the parts.
Moses on the left/front in the next three photos.
I did my best to not mess with perfection. I recreated the cam hooks faithful to the original design.
The hole is a little of an optical illusion. If you can actually see 0.010 of an inch difference then you've got good eyes. Coarse black human hair is about 0.005 of an inch. The hole is 0.375 on mine and 0.385 on Leeper's.
Sorry for the low quality but my camera isn't good at close up.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Apr 27, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Looks like Brasovia knocks off lots of items. Anyone have any experience with them?
Prod.
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climber70
Big Wall climber
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Apr 27, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Yes, we have used them last year in Zodiac and they we liked them
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho, also. Sorta, kinda mostly, Yeah.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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Fragile Flake.
Extra wide, I believe, Chris.
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squishy
Mountain climber
sacramento
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Nov 16, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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looks like someone else also has a clone of the Cam Hooks
http://www.brasovia.com/products/product-BR600-0005.html
I've never used cam hooks, still learning the aid game, but I actually ordered a set of these...
Still don't have them yet, but I did get this, I wonder what a better version means...
"but we will have a much better version available in 3 weeks or so"
So I waited and got these new ones for a steal, the company is in Canada so a whole set of these is like 20 bucks...
I will try and get them out with a big wall veteran (who will hopefully teach me how to use them like a pro). I think some sizes are shipping on Friday..
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Auto-X Fil
Mountain climber
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Rock and Snow has 'em!
I got mine!
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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Thanks for continuing such awesome designs, Moses... I have a number of Moses hooks.
My Leeper and Moses hooks seem identical all except for the mini camhook. Am I the only one who's noticed this? The Moses Mini is a bit wider, longer, and significantly thicker. I had to grind mine down. With how thick they are, it doesn't appear that you can get them into much smaller placements than the medium sized one. It would be nice if you could make them the size of the old Leeper.
Colby.
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