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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 5, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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Preface for the idly curious:
The Friday after the accident my wife decided I had to get out of the house and we went out to dinner with friends. She’d told them what had happened. Linda’s 92 year old mother was there with her new “boyfriend”. He had a Marine Corps hat on and I started up a conversation. Turns out he is one of, “The Old Breed” a member of the First Division and a veteran of Peleliu, Guadalcanal, and Okinawa. I told him I now knew why combat vets never spoke much. No more words were spoken. None were needed. We both understood that we were unwilling members of the same club, we’d watched a friend die.
So when you ask “what happened?” either out of a genuine desire to learn something or for the titillation of an exciting story, remember this; you are forcing merely by asking, someone to again relive the worst seconds of their life. I only “owe” answers to Tia, Woody Jr, Karen, Marye, and Al no one else.
Why did it happen?
It was clear to me immediately after the incident that what had happened was that Al was only anchored by the knot that was pulled up to tie off the slack on the trail rope, with sixty feet of slack, not the six feet he assumed. Why this happened is the seminal question. Discussing the details, mechanics and timeline will only obscure the lesson to be learned. There will be other accidents like this one and the mechanics will be completely different. Dwelling on them is a pointless distraction useful only for titillation. Don’t bother asking!
Every event like this involves the dynamic between two or more people. It doesn’t just happen to us. The air transport industry has spent thousands of hours and millions of dollars studying accidents with a similar pattern. Two people each with decades of experience did a whole series of things wrong. Analyzing in detail what went down up there, how the personalities jived and communication broke down would be a futile exercise also other than to say this; This was the kind of mix up that you’d expect in the dark, in a storm on a big mountain not on a sunny afternoon in Joshua Tree. The need to rush was self imposed and unnecessary, but that was only one initiating factor. Also the details of what happened up there can never be accurately known. The trauma played with Al’s memory and he clearly has no memory of things I know he saw, heard and spoke so his recounting of any details can not be relied upon until at some point he recovers completely, if that ever happens.
Woody died and Al got hurt and will have to live with the consequences because they both lost their religion. Here’s what I mean; When we climb we have a whole liturgy of little rituals that we follow to stay safe. With most of us these eventually become so instinctive that they are almost a nervous tic. None of us were sticking to the ritual that day.
Woody’s liturgy was old school, based on the stance, he didn’t make Al sit down. He was also rushing things and never checked the anchor.
Al was likely was confused by the pile of rope and the rush. He also never load checked his anchor point or his harness tie in.
I had my own contribution, I didn’t insist like I normally would that Al tie into the trail rope instead of clipping it to the trail loop, lulled into a false sense of security by a full strength trail loop. (The only reason Al isn’t dead also!) He might have noticed what was going on if it had been in front instead of out of sight out of mind.
There’s an old saying “Familiarity breeds contempt.”
It also fathers complacency.
Complacency kills.
The lesson is simple!
Make a religion out of ALL those little rituals keep us alive like aircrews make a religion of their check lists.
Check your knot and your partners, load check that anchor before committing, hold the same reverence for standard commands and procedures that you would for a prayer, and if something is making you uncomfortable don’t let age, experience or status keep you from speaking up.
The Park Service and the aftermath;
The handling of the accident scene by Melanie was the height of professionalism and sensitivity as was Michelle’s from the SB coroners office. The performance of the office staff something altogether different. The press release was clearly something fabricated from whole cloth. There was no ripped gear, no pulled bolts, no one leading. This initial false report was re-quoted, embellished and re-reported several times compounding the damage. Melanie took written statements from both me, and Matt Spohn, who went up to cut down Al. Evidently no one bothered to read them before going public. To compound maters the investigating officer would not return calls from those, (including myself) trying to correct the record. To my knowledge, Al as never been interviewed. In other words, the bureaucracy apparently went into CYA mode. As a mater of policy, the Park Service should adopt the same protocol as the Coroners Office. Press releases should only state names, times and locations until a review by experienced competent investigators in full position of all the facts. The rumors never needed to start.
There was also some confusion due to the rope and gear that belonged to Mark that was used to get Al down being left up. Several first responders insisted that it be left as “evidence” even though it wasn’t. People were taking notes, but again these notes evidently didn’t end up in the right hands. This led to the JSAR preliminary report also being wrong. They were notified via back channels of this error, but again no one has contacted either Al or myself in an official capacity for correction of the record.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing..
Out, out brief candle! 10 a/b X 2005
This is one of Woody’s routes only a few feet from where he died.
Why did I bring it up?
Only because it will be too easily become a misinterpreted legend given the events and no one else has heard the story. You see Woody gave it the name because he thought it was one of the, “dumbest things I ever did”. A route he would never repeat or suggest to others. He thought that route a “tale told by an idiot”.
When I reflect on the game we play it is “full of sound and fury signifying nothing”! a selfish addiction. We will remember Woody as a pioneer, local legend and hard ass climber. His true legacy is Tia and Woody Jr., the thousands of now adults that either remember him as the best teacher or the toughest that shaped their lives, and the hundreds of friends whose lives he enriched. Woody was a big rock tossed in the pond of life. He didn’t make ripples, he made waves. Those waves will slowly become ripples will continue to reflect far into the future.
The other speculations:
No one was drinking or smoking that day. My beer was in the cooler in the truck next to Woody’s diet Pepsi.
© Wendell Smith or Tia Stark all rights reserved.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Thanks and let it be in peace
Peace
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Thanks for posting it, but for me it raises more questions than answers.
"There was no ripped gear, no pulled bolts, no one leading."
If Woody was not leading, where was his tie-in? Did he fall from the top of the route, after completing his lead? If so, what happened to his gear and anchor?
Why did one of the responders report that Woody was not tied into the rope?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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Go write your own then!
Because I untied Woody to get Al on the rock and keep him from strangling.
All these details are in my official written statement.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Wendell,
Are you saying that you don't mind discussing "Why it happened", but it bothers you to describe "What happened"?
One problem with this is that most of us can't understand the Why part without a good description of What.
From previous posts, it sounds like you wrote a report, and perhaps reviewed it with Tia and Woody Jr., but Al is unable to verify parts of it. Is this correct? Does this make you reluctant to release it?
[Edit: ] There's no need for you to answer the above questions. Given your description and locker's further details in this thread, I understand the details now.
I'm sorry this has been such a source of pain for you, and I appreciate your efforts to help us with The Lesson.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Thank you TGT!
can we leave it at that? move along folks, nothing else to see...
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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thank you, Wendell, for sharing what you have taken away from this unbelievably painful time. I hope that being forced to think back over, and share, the events of that day will in the end be cathartic, and a part of the healing process. I feel certain that it does not feel that way right now.
On one of the other overposted threads, someone mentioned that incident reports of this type are not normally written by those who are emotionally involved in the incident. Those of us who wish to understand the causes of this incident - and I will not even attempt to sort out whether that wish comes from a desire for titillation, or a desire to avoid similar mistakes in our own climbing - will need to wait for a more objective and complete analysis. Until that analysis is produced, we all ought to stop pushing.
EDIT - "can we leave it at that?" Frankly, and with all due respect, no, we cannot. While we can appreciate Wendell's effort, he does not attempt to lay out any details of the situation beyond what occurred with Al's anchor. But that does not mean we have a right to demand details from any particular source or on any particular schedule.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Amen Jay!
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TYeary
climber
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Thanks Wendell.
RIP Woody
Time to let it go, my friends.
Tony
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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You don't get this, do you Onyx, the official report is long gone. The most succinct description is just above, okay? can we let it go?
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Mimi
climber
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TGT, very sorry for your loss. Best of luck in the ensuing fracas.
I'm busy crosschecking the code in your text for the subliminal messages about the grassy knoll.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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I understand. No one chooses to make a mistake that ends with such tragedy. Neither will playing a blame game make things right. Living with tragedy is hard enough without other's getting involved.
I feel for everyone...
Sending Love,
AF
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Mimi
climber
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Thanks Locker. God bless.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Group hug
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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you have to ask?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> they BOTH fell because Al was LOWERING Woody and NEITHER was ATTACHED to the ANCHOR...
>
> Woodys weight took Al over...
>
> Get it???...
Yes. This is the last of the missing pieces of the puzzle - thank you for telling us.
Thank you, locker. - For answering the questions that are painful for Wendell to answer.
And thank you Wendell, too - for sharing what you are able to.
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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thanks locker.
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Mimi
climber
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No point taking that on, Locker. That's being pretty hard and unfair to yourself.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Thanks Locker.... Completely plausible and understandable.
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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Thanks Locker
I fell of a barn roof when I was thirteen, Landed on my head and was in a coma.(explains a lot I know)
The only thing I remember for sure is getting a math book in school that day.
Over the years I have put things together that fit or I finally remembered.
Truth is I will never know for sure and the accident was not witnessed.
The point is Al will probably never know if he remembers or if he put things together as he believes they fit.
For Woody, my wife and children I will never again be annoyed at someone checking my tie in.
Peace to Woody’s children, Al and all Woody’s friends
Rich
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Locker, don't burden yourself with the thought of your bailing on Woody as having ANYTHING to do with what happened. The opposite could also be true, you could be dead now.
It was Woody's time, and that's all there is to it.
I bailed on a friend a few days before we were heading to Alpamayo, from Huaraz. Him and all the people that were on that couloir that fateful day were killed by the serac fall. I could have been there. Instead I'm here typing this message to you.
Cheers,
darod.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
I welcome all thoughtful responses. I have tried to be as respectful and concise as I can in this post, and I would consider removing it if those who are still dealing with the searing pain of losing a beloved brother, father and friend find it to be insensitive in any way.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Thanks for this - it's clear it was difficult to discuss.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jstan, I think Al was lowering Woody from his harness. I believe Al thought he was anchored closely by the trail rope to the back of his harness.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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As a side note to Dmaloy's post. There is an adjacent recently installed rap anchor. However it's set up for a 70m rope. That's probably why they were lowering instead of raping.
70m ropes are NOT standard kit at Jtree!
Ihe only way we knew that was from doing a route earlier that ended near those anchors and from where the middle mark was before I started up deduced that it would require two ropes.
I was joking with Woody at the rap anchors that it needed a brass tag with a skull and crossbones and 70M! stamped on it.
If you place a rappel anchor that reqires a non standard rope length for an area, you should feel honor bound to perminently mark it as such! If you've placed such an anchor you should get back to it and mark it!
That rap station is an other accident waiting to happen!
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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there are no mussy hooks on the formation in question, were never any.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Thanks Wendell and Locker.
Rest in peace, Woody! God bless ya.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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aww, thanks locker....I always try to take things in a healthy direction, which is why you are invited for unlimited beer and h.lettuce on your next trip to Bishop. Wait, are those things healthy?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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In that same vein, I would further say that I believe that lowering or belaying a climber directly from one's harness is to be avoided unless there is a compelling reason to do so.
I usually only do it when I know the anchor won't hold.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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Jstan, I was tied in ready to climb. We would have had both ropes up there after I had finished.
This disscussion though is geting off the point and this is one of the reasons I did not get into the mechanics.
This accident was initiated by a communication breakdown and finalized by not following good proceedure
The exact same kind of accident has and will continue to happen with differing mechanical starting points. Focusing on those issues misses the point and won't prevent another one.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Hey Wendell, now I understand why this must have been a bitch for you. Sorry you lost a buddy, and sorry you had to be there to see it.
I can't imagine the pain. Same for Al. F*#k, that must have sucked.
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WBraun
climber
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TGT -- "Focusing on those issues misses the point and won't prevent another one."
Maybe, maybe not, you don't know. But to me it provides an urgency of awareness to double check for these types of error scenarios in the future. Hearing about this will stay in my consciousness next time I'm in a similar setup to hopefully not become complacent.
We had a big rescue on El Cap many years ago and after the victim and rescuers were raised to the top, they started to tear down the anchors. Communications somehow stopped and there was one edge person still hundred feet below demobbing edge protection. A directional anchor was removed while the edge guy was jumaring back towards the top unknown to the guys tearing down the anchors.
Whamo, the rope went sideways and a stream of profanities came from below. Hahaha The rope suffered some damage as I seem to recall.
The guy could have died.
Anyways the point is someone some where will remember these things and be glad they came up, for knowledge can save.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Thank you for putting out the details and answering the questions, Wendell and Locker. They are helpful beyond just the curious. And the community should be greatful and ought now to continue giving you two, the family, other friends, and Al tons of support.
Best regards,
Bill
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WBraun
climber
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dmalloy
It's pretty clear if you spend the time to read lockers descriptions in this thread only. Read them carefully over and over if you have to.
Maybe Clint C. will lay it out clearer later as he's a master at doing that.
jstan -- yes .... in referral to your earlier post.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Good point Werner!
I, for one, will always pay attention to the, extended, woody check. It's easy to say, anyway.
Another one that I have learned, is the 'Freddy check'. There is someone out there reading this that might want to enlighten our world on the equal necessity of said Freddy check. (ie, be sure if you are are being lowered, or rapping) Though that was a a long time ago, and he only broke a few vertebrae, and only had to survive a few months in a body cast, and now, ~15 yrs after, appears to be climbing harder than I will ever, in this life time, match. Still I think it would be helpful if he spoke up.
little bro?
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Ottawa Doug
Social climber
Ottawa, Canada
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A horrible experience, clearly described.
As Jaybro said, let's all move along now......
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Here is a summary I just posted on TGT's original "Joshua Tree Accident" thread (although locker's summary above is also very good):
1. Woody Stark led a 100' climb on The Great Burrito formation (Real Hidden Valley). He placed an anchor on top.
2. Al Kwok followed the climb, trailing a second rope for the third person (Wendell Smith). The second rope was attached to the back of his harness.
3. 65' (approx.) of slack in the second rope was pulled up, to prepare for belaying Smith, and a knot was tied in the second rope at this point (65/100). This knot was clipped to the anchor by Stark. Smith was tied into the second rope at this time.
4. Before Smith started climbing, Stark requested that Kwok lower him to the ground. At this point, Kwok probably believed that the second rope anchored him closely to the belay anchor, but there was in reality 65' of slack in between.
5. Kwok began lowering Stark. [Edit:] After Kwok had lowered Stark about 35', Kwok probably shifted his weight forward, expecting to be held by the second rope. Due to the slack in the second rope, Kwok kept moving forward and fell along with Stark.
6. Kwok fell 65' (approx.) and was held by the second rope at this point (the haul loop on the back of his harness was strong enough). [Edit:] During the 65' fall, Kwok did not lose control of the lowering device. Stark fell [Edit:] 65' to the ground, receiving a fatal head injury.
7. Smith untied Stark from the lead line, to relieve pressure on Kwok.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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wendell--
thanks so much for doing this. had to be difficult.
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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#3 could use more work - I don't see it as an imperative for the rope to go from the belayer to the anchor to the climber.
There's gotta be at least a #6 - walk off when possible? That said, I've chosen to not walk off on occasion.
However, my preference is just to remember the story and be vigilant in like situations - not memorize a list to be confused with other lists for unlike situations.
Respectfully,
Bill
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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I have to come clean here. I used to go up on the first four pitches of astroman as a crag climb. One time I went up with a pretty inexperienced yet very well book read youngster named Jonn Black who I had been mentoring for a while. I always led everything and after the boulder pitch John was going to practice his jumaring skills. I tied off the rope as I had always done for years on walls, that being right where the rope was tied to me or so and gave the all clear for John boy to jumar on up. He asked me at least twice if we were tied off and I said yep. Thank god the youngster decided to pull the slack down before he weighted the jugs, he was starting to jug the end of the rope thinking I had pulled up the slack. Scared the crap out of me. and I would have never forgiven myself.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Bill,
> #3 could use more work - I don't see it as an imperative for the rope to go from the belayer to the anchor to the climber.
I think dmalloy agrees. He just stated it was "best" for the rope to be routed through the anchor. (easier to control ATC type device)
> There's gotta be at least a #6 - walk off when possible? That said, I've chosen to not walk off on occasion.
Same here - risks vary. I remember some years ago on the first day of a Joshua Tree trip, my partner and I had climbed Friendly Hands to summit on the Jimmy Cliff formation. Seeing no rappel anchor, we followed the arrowed descent direction in the guidebook photo. After lengthy sketchy downclimbing, we were descending blocks in a chimney and my partner jumped off a short drop. However, the rope (over her shoulder or on her back) caught on something unexpectedly and flipped her forwards. She landed on her wrist and broke it, although at first we weren't sure exactly what the injury was. At 2am that night, the pain level was very bad, so we packed up and started driving back to the SF Bay Area immediately. (This ensured that she would be treated by her doctor).
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Thanks Wendall.
Ok, I am angry or should I say ANGRY.... lost one of the most loved and important person in my life, angry by the complete and total Fuk up, an accident that should have not happened, and was totally preventable.
No words can console me at this time, and I doubt any will ever console me. It also does not console me to hear, "He died doing what he loved"...no FRINKIN" WAY! No one WANTS to DIE being fuking lowered off a climb!!! Hell no, that isn't "what we love doing" being lowered, come on, nope.
I'm mad, very hurt by the loss of my best friend, combined with how Woody died, he wasn't ready he had many future climbing plans.
i just can't believe it, everytime I think of Woody it doesn't seem real, damn it, it just hurts too badly. Angry-angry-angry-fuming angry....
Karen
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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dmalloy....I do not have any issue with the reporting of what happened out there that day, I am all for that. In fact, I want all the truth out there, I believe like the rest of you, if it can help prevent another fuk up like this, the facts must be presented.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Karen,
> It also does not console me to hear, "He died doing what he loved"...no FRINKIN" WAY! No one WANTS to DIE being fuking lowered off a climb!!!
I agree. I don't like that "died doing what he loved" sort of response. (Except maybe in some other circumstance, such as if the person was terminal and enjoying what they knew would be their last few days on the planet). I didn't see that response in this thread, but it is in the original one.
It can be grim to read the details and picture yourself in the situation, perhaps hoping to have prevented it. Or somehow wish they had corrected the mistakes made. It will take time for the anger and/or hurt to recede.
I feel that deaths/injuries are the "dark side" of the sport - we spend a lot of time talking about how we enjoy climbing, but the risks are real and we can rip a hole in our families/friends if we do not constantly keep track of the risks. I made a mistake a few years ago and almost killed someone. Fortunately he (barely) saved himself. I've tried to heighten my awareness of risks, but sometimes I am not sure if I am doing a good enough job.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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MikeL
climber
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People are finally coming to some peace.
Practice some unconditional love, not attached, greedy love of wanting to hold on to what one can no longer have. Pure love is warm, caring, nurturing, and full of equanimity and clarity. Contentment and understanding are ever-present, just on the other side of the tight knot of clinging. Let go, relinquish craving, revulsion, attachment, pity, and sense of hopelessness, and overwhelm.
In time we can try to avoid being taken in by life's events.
Anger is simply an energy before it becomes aggressive. Letting go undoes vicious cycles. Emotions can be wakeful, and they can help one to see very clearly what’s wrong so it can be dealt with.
But that's not what happened here. Seeds of anger sought objects to focus on. Grasping found objects to grasp onto. Egos all around looked for ways to perpetrate themselves--as if to shore up and confirm territories and existences.
Contentment, peace, and quiet are just on the other side of each moment of craving, of holding on to what is actually only fleeting and impermanent. That’s where letting go comes in and takes place.
Be well.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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sorry karen.
wish we could stop the clock.
anger's pretty normal.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Perhaps there is yet a lesson to be learned here.
How could there be confusion as to which rope was clipped in? Were the ropes of similar color and thus easily confused?
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ghand
Sport climber
Golden,Colorado
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dmalloy, I am a big proponent of #3. It was taught to me many years ago by the late great Howie Doyle. He knew with his size, when he was seconding a pitch, he wanted the rope to go to a high (bombproof piece) and down to the belayer. It then also serves as the first piece for the next lead.
On another note (also long ago), I was following the 2nd pitch of Psychosis in Eldorado. As I approached the belay, my partner had forgotten his belay device and he was very proud to show me he had used a Munter Hitch. Imagine my surprise when I looked at it and he had only twisted the rope around his carabiner a couple of times!
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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The stages of grieving: denial, depression, bargaining, anger then acceptance. Any of which (except acceptance) can range all over the place, in no particular order, I am still in this process. Sometime yes it will pass...but until then, the idea of just letting Woody "pass" from my heart, is just innately dishonorable.
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Outside
Trad climber
Truckee
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I am so sorry for those involved.
Thanks for providing the details, this hits hard for ALL climbers.
Peace and may we all heal with time.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Karen - three years ago tomorrow, my friend Scott passed away in a tragic accident, along with another great man, Walt Rosenthal, who was loved by many who read and post here. The accident that took their lives was truly a freak occurence, there were no lessons to be learned that would help any of us through a part of our lives because it was a unique situation.
This is Scott
Since that time, many of his good friends have delivered or adopted new children. We have attended Mass and held BBQs in his honor. We still talk about how caring he was, how obsessive he was about some things, how much trouble he had finding a love that would fit in with his life, and how happy he was when he was out on skis, making big telemark turns in deep powder.
He has not left, and the sadness is not entirely gone. But much more than sadness, now we have a beautiful friend whose life we celebrate. When I go out skiing, I put his boots on my feet - we had the same size, and had discussed trading right before he passed - and try to ski faster and better, and have more fun, because I know that is how he would have wanted it.
Someday, more than anything else, Woody will be a shining example to you of better ways you can live your life - whether by following, or avoiding, his example. Until that day, nothing will truly make things OK, but the support of family and friends will make things bearable. Keep yourself surrounded by that support, let it hold you up when you feel like falling down.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Karen, Locker, TGT, I'm really sorry for your loss. This accident has had a big impact on me. If it can happen to Woody (who I only knew by reputation and this forum) it can happen to anybody.
There may be another lesson here, I'm not exactly sure how to word it and Locker, call bullshit if you want to.
But- you know how when you climb with the same people year after year, you get to really trusting them, you relax and you have fun, things don't seem as serious, and sometimes you climb with a person so much, you don't ask what's in the anchor, you don't really talk technical at all anymore.
Maybe the complacency comes from familiarity. I'm not saying this happened here, but I could see it happening with myself and a few of my partners.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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In the future we should never hound an eye witness for an actual accident report - a detailed and objective breakdown of the technical minutiae.
As someone mentioned, skydiving has a reliable, comprehensive system worked out per accident reporting, and we might learn something by looking at what they do. As is, we have no protocol to deal with accidents, hence the divisive run around we've seen here. It's a shame. I think a lot of good people got turned around on this one.
JL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So perhaps there is more than one lesson.
I don't see anything wrong with borrowing from the wisdom of a related discipline.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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thanks to those involved for the details.
what a tragedy.
i have a slight gripe w/ the description of certain behaviors simply as "complacent".
it seems that we are still left to assume certain things because nobody remembers exactly what happened up there, but this incident reminds me of other accidents which i have read abut concerning parties of 3 (remember some guy falling from a belay on nutcracker a few years back? maybe he was norwegian or something?)
it seems to me that these situations can get confusing because the typical sequence of events is slightly corrupted-
the anchor is being shared, and tasks are often shared.
there is a climber waiting to follow.
there is a climber wanting to be lowered (or getting ready to lead away when the team is ready?)
the belayer is (or may be) changing.
tie-ins may even change.
what is missing is the effort to slow down and clearly communicate about each situation separately-
who is doing what?
who has done what?
what needs to be done?
in what order?
anyway, woody led, al followed.
did they each think the other had tied al in to the anchor?
were they going to bring TGT up by attaching a device to the anchor (in which case al may have not ever tied in), or would al have had to tie in before belaying?
don't get me wrong, I AM NOT ASKING THESE QUESTIONS
it's just my point that communicating clearly about what needs to be done, and who is taking what responsibilities, is critical, and in certain situations, circumstances can make the tasks and the sequence of events less obvious.
as a final point, i also disagree that rappelling is safer than lowering, and my reading of ANAM certainly does not support that conclusion.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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here's a few where lowering may be better than rap:
Skinny rope. More friction can be figured into the system if you lower them. Maybe their device is worn?
n00b. nuff said.
Unknown length between stations or no stations. That way they can climb back up on belay instead of derigging a rap and then self belaying or establishing a new belay from the leader above.
Icy ropes
Bad anchor/no anchor and leader then walks off
any sort of injury
To clip directionals for a 3rd to follow the route and you have only one rope
In the dark looking for the next station near a rope length out.
(space reserved for more)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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i think in another thread would be more appropriate(?) and i cannot write i out now as i am about to sack out- if there were a thread (maybe there even has been a thread?) i'd be happy to post up there soon.
i would just say that the act of rappelling seems responsible for a disproportionately high # of incidents if you cruise the ANAM over the years, while lowering seems less so (no that is not a scientific analysis, i agree).
there are ways to make rapping a bit safer, but some are only marginally effective and others are seldom used.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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if you belay from the top of a pitch, immediately lowering the 2nd means they never untie, and aside from setting up a lowering point on the anchor (easy) is pretty simple- sometimes there is something to re-weighting the rope and being prepared for a change in force as the 2nd is lowered over an edge.
(could that have happened to al? might not have mattered that he was not anchored if he'd been lowering through a point on the anchor- but i am unfamiliar with the terrain right there, and generally not wanting to speculate.
SLOW DOWN
COMMUNICATE
that's the lesson, as i see it.
good night, peace to those who could use some of it.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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I think I use those methods I listed more than standard rappels!
And that's at Josh!
Nutshell of a typical climb that I might do: (lIke at Josh, 1 to 2 pitch sorta stuff, not able to slingshot)
I lead the thing and set an anchor, if I can, usually on the top of the crag. Sometimes well back from the lip, but mostly as pro will allow.
I tie up the anchor with the lead line connected to my normal waist tie in, and move to near the lip.
I belay Susan up, from my waist, usually while sitting down, semi tight with the anchor.
She tops out in record time.... I immediately lower her back to the ground, sometimes a full 200+ feet, as long as the rope ain't grinding. If it is a grinder, she will single line rap it to the base instead of being lowered.
I pluck the anchor, drop the rope, and do some sketch asss walk off or downclimb, or even two raps if there is an obvious station mid way down.
Repeat until beer:30.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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ninjakait
Trad climber
a place where friction routes have velcro
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So, I am going to fight this battle because my father cannot. I have given this a lot of thought and basically this is what it boils down to for me:
People screw up. Accidents happen no matter how much we may think that we are in control, there is always that chance for error. This is exactly what happened and my dad is dead. Get over it. I do not mean to sound callous but honestly, how many of you have had someone you loved die then have their honor and memory beaten down by a bunch of speculation and bullshit by people who don't even know them. Yes, it is important to understand what happened but on the other hand, how sure are you that you won't absentmindedly do the same thing a week from now and have your brains dashed out on the ground? Would you bet your life on it? Well, you do every time you strap on those shoes and tie into a rope.
Oh, and to the guy who mentioned helmets, well in response to that I say thank god my dad wasn't wearing one or else he'd probably be some poor pathetic vegetable waiting for his life to end painfully. That is no life.
We climb because we love it but if you think that for a second you are completely safe you are too damn cocky. The only lesson I've learned is that we are all a bunch of damned fools. This is life, it's bittersweet but that is just how things roll. As much as we might wish to we cannot plan our lives according to when and how we think it should end. So, do not for one iota of a second even begin to think that in whatever way you are far superior to those before you or after you and that you yourself are not expendable in the grand scheme of things.
Time and death wait for no man. In life my father was much to admire and I think that even in death we should remember him as such. Let the man be.
Climb on.
-Tia
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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sorry for your loss Tia. I'm not much for advice in this kind of circumstance, if I were you I'd avoid reading all the crap people write here...or at least try to filter out anything but support towards you, your family, friends and loved ones. best wishes to you.
Rock climbing is dangerous, and sh#t happens. be careful ot there folks.
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MH2
climber
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In life my father was much to admire
Yes.
I wish that in the analyses the names were not used. I can learn just as much from climber 1,2, and 3.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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wow i really thought i was being careful not to post anything that might somehow be offensive. please just let me know if you were referring to my post(s) and i'll pull them immediately. somehow i think you are addressing earlier posts? not sure. certainly sorry if i offended you in any way- wasn't my intention, sorry, and of course sorry for your loss.
People screw up. Accidents happen no matter how much we may think that we are in control, there is always that chance for error. This is exactly what happened and my dad is dead. Get over it. I do not mean to sound callous but honestly, how many of you have had someone you loved die then have their honor and memory beaten down by a bunch of speculation and bullshit by people who don't even know them. Yes, it is important to understand what happened but on the other hand, how sure are you that you won't absentmindedly do the same thing a week from now and have your brains dashed out on the ground? Would you bet your life on it? Well, you do every time you strap on those shoes and tie into a rope.
everything there is true.
most accept that understanding the mistakes which lead to accidents (or near accidents) helps others prevent them, at least to some degree,
still nothing makes it "safe" out there.
peace
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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ummm... deleted I guess.
dmalloy: check your email
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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This is why I care about hearing the story. Stories back up lessons. They make them much more powerful. The problem is that it must truly suck to have a friend or family member be the object of the story and I am very sorry that Woody lost his life and that Al and Wendell and Locker and others lost a friend and that Tia and others lost a member of their family and I really wish that this didn't happen. But it did, and the only good that can come from this is that it can help others remember important lessons.
I am a noob climber. I will never be anything more then a noob climber. I know about checking gear. I ask my friends to check theirs, but lets face it, I am a noob asking very experienced climbers to do things having to do with climbing. Some of my friends are very good climbers or at least very experienced. After Todd Skinner died, I had all my friends check their harnesses. Before that accident I can guarantee you that some of them would have blown me off. What do I know, I am a noob. They have yadda yadda years of experience. Now I can tell them to suck it up and check, and I can double check what they tell me by checking with my other friends. So I have some methods of checking up on them because I want them to stay safe and I have the power of an example. Am I glad that this happened so I can have a more powerful lesson? No no no. Of course not.
It must really suck to have lost a friend or a family member to climbing. From what I heard about Todd Skinner, he was a great person. It is probably really hard for his family members to remember him this way and as we can see here, it is really hard for the friends and family of Woody to remember him this way, but there it is. That is the realities of climbing and the realities of life. Sometimes things happen that are really hard to deal with. I really feel for Karen, and Tia, and Locker and all of Woody's friends and family. I know that it must be hard.
So what do we do? We can try to help Woody's family and friends heal and We do the best we can to learn whatever we can from these tragedies so that hopefully we can keep them from happening to others. The story really does help with this process. I am just sorry that some couldn't be a bit more patient and I wish that this process was easier, but its not. I can tell you one thing though. Even though many here did not know Woody personally, they knew him through this forum, and some felt very close to him. So hearing the facts of the story is important because it helps them have closure. I know that the word closure is often over used, but it does have its place and I believe that it applies here.
Knowing what happened wont bring Woody back, nor will it heal Al, or Tia, or Locker, or anyones heart, but it does help put to rest the nagging in ones mind about what happened to a friend. It is not always about being ghoulish, though some might be voyeuristic. It can also be about wanting to know what happened to a friend. Hearing that he died doesn't cut it. He was a friend to many here. Nor does Hearing a lesson second hand without the story accomplish much. The lesson without the story lacks impact. The story is important. So thank you Wendell for sharing it. I am really sorry for your loss.
I will tell you another thing. My climber friends don't give me any sh#t about checking their harnesses for wear, and now they wont be giving me any crap about checking their setups.
None of this will bring Woody back. No lesson is really worth the loss of someone's life. I pretty much figure that Karen and Tia and Locker are going to be messed up over this for some time and will probably be very angry for a time and for quite awhile they aren't going to give a plugged nickel for any "lesson" that anyone learned, because they are hurting. Yet one day I think that they will see the value in learning as much from these tragedies as one can, because likely they have other loved ones who still climb, and they will want them to be safe.
Thats all I have to say. I am sorry if it is a bit long.
So long Woody. See you in your next lifetime.
John
Edit: Sorry, one more thing.
Locker, my friend from the Taco stand. Don't you dare take any blame for what happened to Woody. Woody would probably kick your ass for trying to take any blame. He was his own man and he would never ever blame you for what he did or didn't do. So suck it up and stop blaming yourself.
Sorry man for sounding so harsh. I just figured someone had to talk to you how I think Woody would have. I know I only know Woody from the forum, but from what you have said, that is part of how I picture him straightening you out. If I am wrong, then I apologize.
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the_don
Trad climber
Somerville, MA
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First off I want to extend my condolences to all of those involved in this accident. And, thank you for being willing to share this story so that others might learn.
I wanted to see if you could clear up one last source of confusion in Clint's description of the mechanics of the accident.
6. Kwok fell 65' (approx.) and was held by the second rope at this point (the haul loop on the back of his harness was strong enough). [Edit:] During the 65' fall, Kwok did not lose control of the lowering device. Stark fell 100' total to the ground, receiving a fatal head injury.
7. Smith untied Stark from the lead line, to relieve pressure on Kwok.
If Al had already lowered Woody 35', then did Woody actually fall 65', rather than 100'? Or were they lowering off at a point more than 100' off the ground?
Is it correct that the lead line from Woody to Al was loaded after the fall, although Woody was on the ground?
Again, I am sorry for the pain felt by all involved and otherwise connected with this accident.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Tia makes an entrance to the Taco stand worthy of Woody's daughter! Welcome!
Similar to what I posted on another thread she writes
"People screw up. Accidents happen no matter how much we may think that we are in control, there is always that chance for error. This is exactly what happened and my dad is dead. "
Yup, in the wrong circumstances I've seen every stripe of climber "almost" do something that would have thoughtlessly got them killed.
Some climbers keep their attention span of "mindfulness" more regularly than others. That keeps them safer "but not safe" If there is any lesson, and I think this applies to safety on and off the crags, it's to be aware of what you are doing at all times. Accidents just don't happen near as often when you are "fully present in the here and now."
Folks are uncomfortable with death and trauma, particularly when it happens to somebody they know and are familiar with. They don't know what to say appropriately and have to convince themselves through analysis what the lessons and proceedures should be to keep it from happening again. (even if that might not be effective)
So, with respect, just as Tia asks us to get over the fact that her Dad messed up and got killed, it would serve everyone here to understand that people are going to talk about and analyze this so that's another thing we should just "get over" If someobody crosses the line and post about it inappropriately, email them offline and ask for an edit or delete so the threads don't turn into flame fests about posting.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Pretty lame forcing censorship onto people posting their analysts here.
This is pretty disturbing .... shameful
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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Sorry for everyone involved, no doubt. We lost two young climbers to a preventable accident last fall, and many people are still hurting over it. I drive by that cliff nearly every day...
It is tricky to balance getting info out, with consideration for those involved. This is something I wrote on a thread about Ben and Laura...
"I know there are always lot of questions, but in the end, maybe the exact answers are not so important, all that really matters is something went wrong, and the consequences are severe. And that, to me, is the lessen to take away from any accident."
Peace and good vibes to those that are hurting.
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ninjakait
Trad climber
a place where friction routes have velcro
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"Pretty lame forcing censorship onto people posting their analysts here.
This is pretty disturbing ...."
I am neither forcing censorship nor have I asked anyone to delete their posts. If you cannot read the posts that have been put up regarding the situation then you should take a look over them again to understand. It is all there. Also there is a difference between analysis and speculation.
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WBraun
climber
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Speculation is always part of an analysts and should not be forced to be censored.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Tia doesn't own this site Werner.
She can't "force" censorship on anyone.
She just lost her dad. I think the family and friends have been remarkable in their posting here given the circumstances.
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WBraun
climber
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My post was not aimed at Tia or anyone in particular.
So who is really speculating now ....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Everybody chill! After a accident of any kind, there is going to be analysis and speculation, and grief and anger and hurt. Everyone has lost someone, and everyone has speculated "What happened?" It is human nature, but more importantly analysis and discussion of the accident helps others to stay safe.
I didn't know Woody, but any discussion of what happened does not make me respect him less. Woody obviously was "The MAN."
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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as the person who tried to perform some analysis, but in a very sensitive way, I will say -
I do not feel censored. I made what I now find to be an error in judgment in my earlier posts, although I attempted to be as sensitive as possible, and I am quite sure that I never disparaged the actions of any individual. The error in judgment I believe I made had to do with the location and timing of my discussions.
After considering my own error in judgment, I decided that removing my posts was the only way I could begin to atone for that error, and that is what I did. I stand by that decision, and I am sincerely sorry for my own original error in judgment.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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the_don:
> If Al had already lowered Woody 35', then did Woody actually fall 65', rather than 100'? Or were they lowering off at a point more than 100' off the ground?
Yes, he fell 65'. I have edited it now. I had 100' in there before, because when I first wrote that, I thought the fall started when the lowering began, and I did not edit it correctly.
> Is it correct that the lead line from Woody to Al was loaded after the fall, although Woody was on the ground?
Yes.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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stay away, Lowest.
you certainly have zilch to offer in a thread about lessons learned by climbers about accidents (and in any other thread it is it debatable at best, but i digress...)
(how's that for censorship?)
i think there is speculation and there is speculation.
not all speculation is equal.
on that note i'll offer some further speculation.
woody had to be untied to relive pressure on al.
therefore it seems that woody was being lowered w/ an auto-locking device of some kind (speculation, not offensive speculation IMO)
perhaps the 2nd rope was pulled up, tied into the anchor on a bite and either clipped through a device attached to the anchor, or maybe that was just the intention.
i am unfamiliar with this exact location and it's terrain, but there are many top-outs in the park (intersection rock for an obvious example) where a belayer using a device attached directly to the anchor might feel entirely comfortable not tying in directly, or even feel inconvenienced unnecessarily by tying in directly. alternatively, al may have intended to tie in on a bite from a comfortable position near a lip or edge, or an otherwise convenient place, some distance forward from where the gear opportunities are, in order to facilitate verbal communication w/ TGT (again, all speculation on my part).
perhaps the same device (or the only device available?) was instead used to lower woody (again, auto-locking devices would be used in this way at the anchor and seems to have been involved between al and woody).
so again, speculation here, but an initial set up w/ one intention that was not addressed by either party when the plan changed could easily have caused (or contributed to) this tragic mishap.
in this scenario, al would have begun to lower woody without weighting the anchor, perhaps from a seated stance of some sort which was initially effective, and then something changed and that belay/lowering position became inadequate (i personally have experienced a dramatic change in force upon me while lowering a relatively small climber, when that climber was lowered over a change in angle, so that the climber went from initially walking backward down a low angle face and then suddenly became a free hanging dead weight no longer in contact with the wall).
Tia-
(deleted)
peace and best wishes to anyone who could use a few extra right now.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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some say laughter is the best medicine, my friend
who says she is gud fer nothin?
=)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Captain Sullenberger, successfully put (bird hit) flight 1549 into the Hudson River thus saving 150 lives as well as countless on-the-ground lives if the plane had crashed in populated NYC. When questioned about how he managed such quick thinking and skill, he replied that he attributed his success to analyzing many episodes which preceded his events concerning flight 1549.
Sullenberger sits on (and may even head up) the board which analyzes and dissects every aircraft accident which occurs in the US. He has stated, in a very public way, that his successful actions were as a result of all this indirect experience he gleaned via sitting on the board and analyzing (in excruciating detail) all previous episodes wherein he participated. Without that (on paper) experience, he does not believe he could have made the decisions he did."
You can laugh at this if you like, but it's the reason why the American Alpine Club and the Alpine Club of Canada publish ANAM every year.
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couchmaster
climber
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I was not going to post here but LEBs post hit me. First) Tia, thanks for the great words. I only know a few things and those not very well. No one who knew Woody will ever forget him. He was memorable and stood out on this site for his honesty. He didn't hide behind a screen name and he told people the truth....much to their chargrin, surprise or anger:-)
I wish I'd got off my ass and just headed down and climbed with the Woodster. My first trip to JT I was doing some of his routes and those memories are yet with me. He was a character, and I loved him just on his words...the world is missing a good one there. Those of you who had time with him were truly blessed, and I'm sure that makes his passing even more of a nightmare. My sorrow for your loss is deep and heartfelt. Thanks to all for the accident analysis.
_
to the meat and potatoes here:
LEB said:) "Karen,
They don't ever "pass" from your heart or your soul. April 2, 2009 marked 23 years since I found myself in a similar situation to where you are now. You simply build another life around it. "
OMG! LEB, what would be the odds, was this a climbing accident at Smith? I was first responder on an near identical accident and it must have been somewhere near or on this date. Climbed around and up and lowered them off but it was too late. When I read what happened here, it is eerily similar, dead on the money damn near the same exact thing happened if I understand correctly. Same tie in issue, lowering a person and the belayer slides off the ledge. They were experienced too, it happened on the 5.10a route called Trezlar. What would be the odds. This what you are refering to?
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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The Lesson : Always tie in directly to the anchor WITH the climbing rope that is tied into your harness. This applies to the leader as well as the follower.
I think Russ has it pretty right on with his operating procedure.
Even on walls I'll tie into the anchor with the rope even though I may be attached with my jugs and a daisies and only there momentarily.
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AbeFrohman
Trad climber
new york, NY
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Good lord. I have no idea how this went from an explanation of an accident to the salinity of the Hudson Frickin' River.
Thank you for the details. I know a lot of people think it unnecessary, but I find the details of the accident very informative.
My only question is, and feel free to ignore me, is why was a second rope used at all? if the first follower was being lowered, why wouldnt they just get lowered and untie, and a new person tied in?
As for the Hudson River ESTUARY, it is full on salty up to West Point, Brackish to POUGHKEEPSIE (about an hour north - the Gunks), and a little salty all the way to the TROY FUKING DAM at Albany. It is TIDAL the whole way as well. (Can you tell that used to be my job?!)
PS- RIP Woody, and best wishes to all those involved. Speedy recovery to Al and Locker, and anyone and everyone else, both physically and mentally.
Accidents suck.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The problem with an open forum like this is that there is no specific place set aside for an analysis, so we get testimonials mixed in with rants mixed in with technical breakdowns mixed in with (fill in the blank).
JL
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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-a lot of totally off-topic bullshít...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The Airplane thing was funny but I think this thread is too serious for that to become an extended detour. Let's move anymore BS about the Hudson somewhere else
my 1 cent
Karl
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Gene
climber
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Karl,
I take jstan’s post to mean that what needs to be gleaned and learned from Woody’s accident is already out there. It even now has its own name – the Woody Check. If I may be presumptuous, jstan is telling us that the minutiae doesn’t matter. Airplanes shouldn’t hit birds and partners need to check and double check each other. The mechanics of the accident, the salinity of the Hudson, etc. are secondary to the point – watch out for yourself and for your partner, ie avoid flying into a flock.
If that was not jstan's intent, I apologize.
gm
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Not criticizing any post in particular, just don't think further debate on the salinity of the Hudson should crowd the thread. The original point may have been well stated.
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I would also like to repeat my condolences for all involved.
Thank you Wendell and Woody for letting us know what happened.
There have been threads here where people talk about "your closest call". Everyone makes mistakes.
I think the main reason people wanted the details is so they can make sense of (simply understand) what happened.
Complancency kills is the lesson, thank you Wendell for reminding us. I can not be stated enough.
Knowing the details makes the lesson easier to understand and also provides an image of a situation that might make people stop and think when they are in a similar situation and are reminded to not be complacent. It may be painful to share, but it does help.
Locker I too lost one of my closest friends and partly blamed myself for not doing everything I could to prevent it. I was tore up and not myself for a year because of it. I came to grips with it not by not blaming myself (I know that even though I did not cause it, I could have done things to prevent it) but by forgiving myself. How could I have known what was going to happen? You choose your actions based on the knowledge available to you at the time.
Trauma can effect your memory. Al might never remember everything and that may be a good thing.
For those close to Al please take good care of him and keep an eye on him. It seems to me his situation could be very difficult. He could have or develop survivor's guilt. He may also blame himself (totally unwarranted of course). Plus the physical and psycological damage of the trauma.
My best wishes to all.
Edited to add: Wendell take care of yourself (and friends take care of Wendell). It can be easy to discount the impact of what you had to deal with when you are worried about your friends.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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It's human to want to "figure things out", especially when there's pain involved.
However, my perspectives on past accidents, both those of others and those I've been involved in myself to some degree - they've changed, and they keep changing as I mature, move through my life, and learn new things.
So, whatever you "figure out" here - it's probably going to change, which begs the question of whether you ever actually figured anything out.
So, I agree with the OP. The facts are on the table. I believe they are all you need.
Also - thanks everyone for putting this stuff out there - locker, TGT, friends, the family. You didn't have to. I appreciate this story.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
stealth camping and hiding from the man
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Tia and Woody Jr:
My condolences go out to you. It is a terrible thing to have lost your father this way. I'm sure it is even worse to be subjected to some of the posts in this and other threads on this forum. My apologies to you. I'm sure that there isn't a single person here who wishes to make things harder for you than they already are. My best wishes to you as you struggle to find peace in the wake of all that has happened.
For the rest of us the lesson is not in the details. Enough of those have been posted and analyzed. The lesson is simple and is something we all learned in the beginning of our journey in this sport:
"Check yourself, check your partner, and then check again. Never assume anything."
That is all that here.
Peace to all,
Scott
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I completely missed this post - had no idea what it was about. I'm so sorry to hear about this - what a tragedy. My condolences to all the friends and family of Al and especially of Woody.
Thank you to Locker and especially Clint for explaining what happened - I really had no clue when I began reading.
How is Al doing?
Locker - don't beat yourself up....
Climbing is dangerous - remember this! The bottom line is, "don't f*ck up." These guys did, and paid the price. Many of us have come within a hairsbreadth of death while climbing because we made stupid mistakes, but luckily we lived to tell the tale. Any of us could die on any given day as a result of nothing more than a momentary lapse of judgement.
Be careful, don't blow it.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete wrote: ""Climbing is dangerous ... Any of us could die on any given day as a result of nothing more than a momentary lapse of judgement.""
Yes, that has been the main point to me. Life is full of close calls. Every good climbing story has the requisite line about being way out over some sketchy pro where falling would have been calamitous. When we change lanes on the freeway we generally know exactly what we're doing. But hasn't each of us changed lanes in our cars, trusted a piece, ate something, drank something, took something, went home with someone we just met, etc... more on faith and assumption than certainty? Most times it's fine, sometimes we were inches from disaster and never knew it, and occasionally things don't work out so well.
Along the same lines, we'll never know how many times we saved lives, including our own, by being certain of what we were doing (or even doing what is perceived as overkill) at some given moment in time. Looking at the record of accidents in rock climbing I'd say this happens more than the times we get unlucky.
As for Wendall having to untie Woody for Al, that is just incredibly painful to contemplate. As for Al, having held Woody's rope while being pulled off a cliff... well?... no one can question his level of commitment.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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2 climbers were just killed this weekend near where I live in similar circumstances to this accident. It happened at Horsethief Butte here in Washington. All the details are not out yet but very sad.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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There have been far too many deaths lately. Condolences to the family.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Couchmaster, the accident that you are refering to at Smith, all those years ago involved a close friend of mine. She was the person at the top of the climb, and if I remember correctly, her anchor failed. Deb had a wonderful spirit about her, and her death touched many in a very profound way.
At the memorial service, there was a poem that was printed for those of us that were grieving. It had Deb's picture, and I know I have it saved somewhere; I do not know if I can find it in a timely manner, so I'll paraphrase the poem in the hopes that it helps Woody's family and friends. It really helped me 23 years ago.
When I'm gone
Think of me
But not too much
Cry for me
But not too much
Do not let your sadness at my passing
Prevent you from smiling at my memory.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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We don't know the details yet, but it's possible the accident here in WA Sunday involved folks who were sport rappelling as opposed to climbing. That doesn't make it any less tragic or alter the need to follow some basic protocols when operating near an edge, but simply that the technical analysis may be somewhat less relevant. But this was definitely another heartbreaker in that the third in the party who was not injured lost a wife and brother; and the children of the brother who died were in close proximity and witnessed the accident.
We lost another NW stalwart, Jim Anglin, not that long ago at Smith as he was walking from the parking lot taking the first step on to the descent trail down to the lower gorge. As the trail went from lawn to the edge, and from perfectly flat ground to the 'trail', he stepped down about a foot or so where you also have to make a ninety degree turn at the same time and lost his balance. It appears he may have simply carried too much forward momentum into that turn due to the pack of gear he was wearing. The point being we should all be reminded to watch the details from moment you leave your car until you return to it - it's not necessarily just the 'climbing' per se that's hazardous.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jstan, definitely. As another old guy who preaches 'stance-as-craft' with anchors as backup, I too find today's reliance on anchors a fairly remarkable. It's definitely a result of our wealth of gear and the rise of bolting not unlike the art of belaying suffering in the rise of autolocking devices.
My father is a retired UAL 747 captain and I still remember his off-the-cuff comments about an accident at O'hare in Chicago back in the 80's. It as an LA-bound American DC-10 that crashed on take-off after one of the engines fell off due to the mechanics having used a forklift to put it back on damaging the engine mount in the process. I asked my father about it before any of the details were known and he said, "it must have been young pilots".
I asked him why and he said the DC-10 could have finished the flight to LAX with no problem relative to power and control alone, that the accident happened because the pilots, following American Airlines flight rules, throttled back to come around causing the affected wing to fall out of the sky. Dad said older WWII pilots learned to fly in single engine aircraft and anytime there was the slightest problem with their aircraft they instinctively step on the gas to gain altitude, or as he said the old saying goes - 'altitude is time'.
He said he knew they must have been younger, post-WWII pilots who came up learning on multi-engine planes and who took having more engines for granted so tend to be more casual or cavalier about an engine failure or loss and because of it decided to follow the company's flight SOP for such an incident. He said any older pilot would have instantly jumped on the pedal and finished the take-off gaining altitude so they could assess the problem - company flight policies be damned.
Both the climbing and in flying examples illustrate generational changes in approach to some extent, even if in the case of climbing most older folks have also dropped stancing in exchange for the convenience of anchor tension. Even in cases of gear or bolt anchors I've personally placed I still always strive to be able to hold a fall, or lower a lead or second, purely from my stances unless there is just no possibility of establishing a stance.
As John says, there's definitely merit in [re]calibrating your thinking to where you treat you anchors as a backup rather than as the primary means of you stopping, holding, or lowering a partner.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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In industrial bakery environments, the rookies are the safest. They're scared of all those moving belts. It's the old timers that lose fingers, hands and arms.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Lovegasoline,
The the two posts above related to the NW accidents and the aviation comparison are the first two posts I've made relative to this accident. On the whole, I'm somewhat aghast at the way the ST community has reacted on-line to this whole affair. I expect this sort of debacle on rc.com or cc.com - I don't on ST and have been unpleasantly surprised in that regard, and stunned folks couldn't simply wait for the official technical analysis before devolving multiple threads into unrestrained sprayfests.
Clearly a combination of technical, personal, and circumstantial elements play into any accident. That's why we do 'technical' analyses to segregate out those elements and focus on 'the facts' rather than the personalities invovled. I know the rc poster you're speaking of and I'm sure he was being forthright regardless of what 'line' he may have crossed for some folks in the matter - but it may not have been the best idea posting what he did when he did. Personal history relative to previous 'incidents' or 'behaviors' may or may not be relavant in any particular accident - and again, that's one of the things that can often be established by a good technical analysis and why they're worth waiting for.
Ditto in this case, Woody's 'tempermant', attitude, or level of 'casual/cavalier' may or may not have been relevant. From what I gather from the facts Woody's role and responsibility in the accident could only entail two possibilities: a) interrupting Al who likely was in the process of getting established at the anchor to bring up Wendell and b) failing to doublecheck Al's situation relative to the anchor before being lowered. Checking knots and harness rigging is one thing, checking anchoring is yet another as is patience relative to simply waiting for Al to bring Wendell up before being lowered.
I'm not familiar with the climb in question, but not wanting to wait for Wendell to come up could have been about crowding at the anchor or impatience or both - I'm not sure it mattered either way. Not checking Al's anchoring may or may not bring up another generational aspect of climbing involving old guys. In that regard of checking each other's harness, knots, etc., I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance. I still tend to view such safety tactics as a [necessary] attribute of climbing as a group / social activity in today's world and probably a very necessary component of a scene where everyone is distracted socializing. It could be Woody had similar sentiments and so didn't check Al on that basis alone - we'll never know and there's probably a lesson and warning in there for me to not be so onerous about other folks checking my business.
But, back to the point, Woody's history as a climber or belayer didn't appear to play into this accident in any way - he was being lowered. From what I can tell the onus was on Al, regardless of any interruptions by Woody, to insure he was setup safely at the anchor whether for just being there, bringing up Wendell, or lowering Woody. I would suspect distraction was more or less the sole culprit here and that attitudes, histories, and the interactions of personalities were very minor contributing factors at best.
Also, with regard to highly experienced old guys and 'casualness' - it's a two-faced sort of deal. Yes old guys can be as prone to it as anyone else, but on the other hand they are operating from a wealth of personal history and experience which lets them know and recognize the true parameters and boundaries of what constitutes 'safety'. Sometimes something may alarm your sensibilites around what is 'safe', but in reality they are completely fine.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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In that regard of checking each other's harness, knots, etc., I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs...
Your system is my system, you can be damn sure I'm going to check it. And I appreciate it when someone keeps an eye on me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Your system is my system, you can be damn sure I'm going to check it. And I appreciate it when someone keeps an eye on me."
Again, there are many generational aspects to this side topic. You can take my comment out of the context of my post to make your comment, but it doesn't change the fact there are differing subjective opinions on this tactic or approach to safety. Those may or may not have played into this accident.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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healyje, not sure what context it was taken out of, but I hope I did not misinterpret your remark.
Double checking was beat into my head by old timers. The ritual of signals, likewise. I'm a recent technical climber, but was mentored by old hands on trad routes, not in the gym.
In 10 years of climbing, I've caught one tie-in slip up. That person wasn't insulted.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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After reading almost every issue of ANAM and different internet boards regarding accidents, I always learn the same simple lesson; climbing is dangerous, pay attention and be careful.
However, mistakes still happen. Its not generational, or a paradigm shift. Mistakes will always happen.
Perhaps the lesson is avoid accident reports and the technoweenie analysis/speculation threads, and keep trying to be safe while climbing.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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healyje, you offered some very valid points, you seem to get it...!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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re: Woody's history as a climber or belayer didn't appear to play into this accident in any way - he was being lowered. From what I can tell the onus was on Al, regardless of any interruptions by Woody, to insure he was setup safely at the anchor whether for just being there, bringing up Wendell, or lowering Woody. I would suspect distraction was more or less the sole culprit here and that attitudes, histories, and the interactions of personalities were very minor contributing factors at best.
i have no interest in starting any arguments here, but you guys are now assigning blame, and drawing conclusions, all based upon speculation.
IMO, what happens after a climber comes off of belay at the anchor, everything that happens after that moment, is a team effort. if there is not a guide/client or a mentor/noob dynamic, then all responsibilities are shared, including (and especially) the responsibility to communicate clearly about every critical act or decision that impacts any aspect of the safety system.
the the only way it would have been entirely one party's "fault" (and not the others) is if one guy was off taking a piss over some edge and then returned and the other guy said "here tie in i've gotchya".
(even then, the returning climber really ought to say "lemme see")
otherwise, everyone is right there, and everyone is responsible for everything. it's called redundancy, and it's a critical part of the system.
i for one have NEVER been lowered off (or rapped off) of anything that i had not personally checked out.
none of that is an attack on woody.
it's just that neither of them were up there alone, so far as i am aware...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Matt: "... but you guys are now assigning blame, and drawing conclusions, all based upon speculation."
No, I'm not - there was and is no 'blame' - there was only an accident in which sequence of unfortunate events unfurled.
The very notion of 'Blame' is completely misplaced in such circumstances as far as I'm concerned. Both objective hazards and pilot-error occur in climbing. While, as you point out, everyone involved played a role, that doesn't mean [technical] causality can't be assigned. BUT, that should in no way be confused with 'blame' or 'judgment' - those are terms wielded by living and provide no good service to the dead or to those survivors we are are all lucky to still have with us.
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Fingercrack
Trad climber
Just left of there
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Matt is correct
The "loweree" has the responsibiliy to check the "lowerer" and vice-a-versa.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The topic of reciprocal partner checks clearly has easy-to-implement, commonsense utility in climbing, would likely have prevented this accident, and is certainly relevant in any thread titled "The Lesson", but I sense in this discussion it is now being used to play a somewhat different 'blame game' relative to explicit technical causality. Yes, we are all individually and collectively responsible, but don't confuse 'responsibility' with causality. There is no more point in using that rubric to either avoid, distribute or deflect specific elements of causality than there is in attempting to assign 'blame' or cast 'judgments'.
The focus should be on grieving our losses, healing our survivors, and [as always and again] learning our individual and collective lessons.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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This just occured to me, and although someone if not many may have mentioned it already, it has not been woven into this thread like it ought to be:
THIS ACCIDENT HAPPENED ON THE DESCENT.
Rappelling and lowering accidents happen with alarming frequency in the mountains and on the crags. It's easy to understand why - when you are leading the climb, you are focused on the lead, and because of your focus you are far less likely to make a stupid mistake.
But then you reach the top, and you relax a bit. You made it. You knocked the bastard off. You're cool, you're a hardman. You relax your mindset. You're tired, you're ready to go home, have a beer, you start thinking about the next climb, whatever.
You relax your guard, you make mistakes. I do knott know if it is true that "most" accidents happen on the descent, but we all know that a helluva lot of them do.
So be careful when you're climbing - it's dangerous, and there is always the possibility that you will end up dead if you blow it! And be especially careful after you have completed your climb, and are relaxed - this is a great time to make a simple but costly mistake.
DFU.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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"I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance."
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and here's mine. I appreciate it every time someone double checks me. If you are uncomfortable with someone double checking you, get over it, they may just save your life. I have caught harness buckles not doubled back and unlocked biners on a few occasions. When I solo or I'm at the top of a pitch by myself I mentally clear my head for a second then double check my system from end to end before I climb, lower, or belay. A second set of eyes with a fresh perspective is better than you double checking yourself. When you climb with a partner your safety is their safety. If you get killed halfway up a climb you put your partner in jeopardy too.
I'm don't know the statistics in rock climbing, but if the chance of a person screwing up the system resulting is death is say 1 in 10,000 if two people check it the chance is 1 in 10,000 times 1 in 10,000. 1 in 100 million is much better odds than 1 in 10,000.
I try to remember to double check even when I "know" it's not needed. It should be part of your routine and you decrease your odds of a problem by a huge amount.
"From what I can tell the onus was on Al, regardless of any interruptions by Woody, to insure he was setup safely at the anchor whether for just being there, bringing up Wendell, or lowering Woody."
Wrong. The onus was on both of them. They were partners, they both had the responsibility to make sure the setup was safe. I double check my partners no matter how experienced they are.
"I would suspect distraction was more or less the sole culprit here and that attitudes, histories, and the interactions of personalities were very minor contributing factors at best."
With all due respect there is a lesson to be learned here and it was stated in the first post.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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"But then you reach the top, and you relax a bit. You made it. You knocked the bastard off. You're cool, you're a hardman."
So true. I have made it a point to recognize that feeling and tell myself it's not over until I get back to flat ground. I have also said that to my partners, e.g. "we're not done yet".
It's not just rapping/lowering too, the North Dome Gully, the Kat Walk, etc. can be dangerous if you let down your guard.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"It ain't over til you're in the parking lot."
And your car starts. And you have a beer in hand.
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WBraun
climber
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"And your car starts. And you have a beer in hand."
And then the cops show, and then ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Well Fet, I never said there weren't lessons to be learned - I'd say in this case there are quite a few of them. But I personally think if you or others want to have an extended discussion on reciprocal partner checking you would likely be better served by a separate thread. As to the differences between my opinions and yours, we disagree, which is o.k. by me, but sorry, there is nothing 'wrong' about anything I've written here. Before any notion of 'collective' responsibility kicks in we are each ultimately responsible for ourselves and our actions which we contribute to the whole.
EDIT: Again, if you are concluding I am assigning 'blame' or judgment in by the phrase "...the onus was on Al to..." you are entirely mistaken - my discussion was purely related to technical causality. In this or any other case, and regardless of presence or absence of any safety checks, each and every one of us is 'responsible' for securing ourselves to an anchor at the top of a pitch and checking to insure that we accomplished that as well. That's a 'fact' and not a matter of 'blame' or a 'judgment' call. And if people can't or don't recognize that, then the trend over time will be that folks will become overly reliant on reciprocal checks as a first line of defense against mistakes when such checks should really only be a last line of defense against edge cases where a mistake has somehow escaped ruthless self-checking.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Scary as hell, Locker, cuz we've all done it, but were lucky enough to get away with it [so far].
Be vigilant always.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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I don't think it's possible for a human to be constantly vigilant while climbing. Nor necessary. It’s an activity where the degree of risk varies greatly from moment to moment. So it's necessary to recognize the situations where the potential for errors and risk to life and limb increases dramatically. That's the time to focus attention on the essential precautions to the exclusion of everything else, until you are satisfied. I would put tying in, setting up a belay, the arrival and departure of a climber at a belay, rappelling and being lowered on the short list. This is where I check and double check.
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Gene
climber
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Accident Analysis Conclusion: Ready, Fire, Aim!
So sad.
gm
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couchmaster
climber
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wbw said "Couchmaster, the accident that you are refering to at Smith, all those years ago involved a close friend of mine. She was the person at the top of the climb, and if I remember correctly, her anchor failed. Deb had a wonderful spirit about her, and her death touched many in a very profound way.
At the memorial service, there was a poem that was printed for those of us that were grieving. It had Deb's picture, and I know I have it saved somewhere; I do not know if I can find it in a timely manner, so I'll paraphrase the poem in the hopes that it helps Woody's family and friends. It really helped me 23 years ago."
When I'm gone
Think of me
But not too much
Cry for me
But not too much
Do not let your sadness at my passing
Prevent you from smiling at my memory.
That's a nice poem wbw. I hope it gives Woodys loved ones some fresh air and help from the pain they must be feeling. Regarding Trezlar, the news stories totally butchered the details, as her anchor did not fail as you suggest. We were guiding at the time (Gini Hornbecker and I) got there asap and did our best. 2 months after Deb and he partner passed away there was another one equally messed up again at Smith a short distance away. @40 feet directly below us, got there even faster but CPR for 20 min was ineffective. It seems to me that you can't get very far from these kinds of graphic details once they are inside your mind. If you want to hear them you have but to ask. If you don't, that's fine too, I totally understand.
regards
Bill
___
Edited: I need to just lay it out here now in a nice way in the short version. "The Lesson" is the title to this thread after all. It was eerily similar as Woody and Al's accident. If even a single person reads it and takes it to heart, I'll have done something good by sharing it so I will.
Deb and this big hulking fella had finished the 2nd pitch of Trezlar. A Sweet 2 pitch 5.10a crack at Smith Rocks. I believe Deb had not been able to get a piece out, and from the ledge, they decided to lower the big fella down to get it out (supposition as I cannot otherwise explain these actions). They had 2 ropes, which they had joined and ran through a rap anchor @ 10 feet to the West. They had also put a medium friend, @ #2 directly behind them for pro to be more in line with the forces of the lower, but it was only @ 1/2 way into a crumbling slot and looked insecure. The cam had a biner and about 10' from the the end of the rope was clove hitched onto the biner. (so the rope then ran over to the rap anchor where it was joined with another rope and that's where the end of it was -joined to another rope) They had untied and must have been relaxing but Deb was NOT tied into the rope at all. She had her shoes kicked off and was barefoot: the rack was off to the side. She put him on belay via an atc style device and started lowering him. She got him down @ 20-25 feet when his weight pulled her off. She was a small thing, I'd guess 90 lbs and he was the opposite at @250 lbs and a size 11-12 shoe I'd guess. When they fell, they made it @ 100 feet straight down and they each in turn struck the same ledge and then fell the rest of the full rope length. When we got there they were both still on the rope, he was 5 feet from the ground. Her belay device had locked and she was @ 20-25 feet above, his weight in effect pining her where she was. Our first response was that we could cut the rope at his waist, but we didn't have a jug and were afraid that once the weight was off the rope, we might lose the end of the rope and she would fall the rest of the way uncontrolled. We thought she was gone then, but as we were not 100 % sure, we went with the safest way which meant climbing up the descent pitch, backing up their gear to make an anchor with a lowering setup with their rope through it, cut the sling on the cam (as the knot was jammed too much to budge it and it still had the 350 lbs on it and we still didn't have jumars or a pully), and lower them down. We wanted to do that work quickly but without killing ourselves as well, because we were standing unroped and unanchored ourselves at the top on that small ledge 2 pitches up the cliff and looking at a long fall.
That shitty, rattly, half in friend held their combined weight for a full pitch fall. We gave the gear to the firemen and statements to the sheriff.
Sorry that you lost your friend. There was nothing we could do that we didn't' do. That's how it went down as near as we could see, and we were the only 2 to see it. I suspect the sheriff was not understanding what we described, however, I have a vague memory of drawing the rigging for him.
BTW, I was thinking this earlier but it needs to be said: big props, no HUGE ONES to Matt for his fast response and right choices on this one. I told him that it was a perfect thing in a bad situation, where you have a kick-assed climber who can just flash up and can get you down fast, and there on the ground is a doctor waiting to help you on the next critical step. If either one was not there......Al might not be here with us either. Shock can be sudden and it's real. Props to the Dr and all who helped or tried to assist.
I wish Woody was here and reading my words right now is all.
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wskish
Mountain climber
Saratoga, CA
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The problem is that it is not possible for humans to be vigilant 100% of the time. For instance, professional security screeners at airports routinely fail to detect guns and knives purposely placed in luggage as security tests: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/03/airport_passeng.html
As Schneier notes, "This psychological phenomenon isn't just a problem in airport screening: It's been identified in inspections of all kinds".
So given that we can't be perfectly vigilant 100% of the time, it becomes useful to recognize those times when we might be at higher risk and hence need to be especially vigilant. While there are many potential 'vigilance triggers', one that really scares the hell of out me is 'complexity'. Complex systems are guaranteed to fail a lot more than simple systems.
In this case, the complexity of a system with three climbers and two ropes is somewhat higher than the complexity of a two-climber one-rope system. While climbers safely manage that level of complexity all the time, it is useful to be aware of situations that have a higher potential for failure and use that awareness to somehow catalyze vigilance.
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Thank you for posting. This is the second recent reminder I have had about checking and weighing my anchor before trusting it. Not long ago I caught a friend as she leaned back after tying in with a clove hitch. She had the knot wrong and started to fall. Out last week with a new climber I made sure he knew about testing his weight on the anchor before going off belay. This reminder could have saved a life.
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Respectfully (not regarding this specific accident), I suggest caution about collective responsibility encompassing a set of critical climbing tasks. When many people are responsible everyone has a tendancy to relax a little - how could one critical task be missed with so many looking? So the 'canvas' made up of those critical tasks has a tendancy to get addressed in sort of a shotgun pattern.
In collective responsibility, there's also a tendancy to go with what most folks are thinking (edit: or with the most persuasive) instead of independently thinking about it. When one knowledgable person is responsible or feels solely responsible for a set of critical tasks, it is more likely that each critical task will get properly scrutinized.
Of course, second checks are good. But, in this view, if a problem is missed by all, any second checker(s) would say "Geez, I'm sorry I didn't catch your mistake, Bob."
That's one view. It has backing in at least one accident-sensitive industry (edit: although I don't claim to have done the position proper justice).
Bill
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Richard
climber
Bend, OR.
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One aspect of this that hasn't been discuss is: How was Al lowered to the ground?
I'm curious fron a SAR P.O.V. I'm guessing JOSAR didn't do the pickoff.
Anyone??
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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healyje wrote, "and stunned folks couldn't simply wait for the official technical analysis before devolving multiple threads into unrestrained sprayfests."
While we have a lot more facts then we had before, we still don't have anything approaching an "official technical analysis." But that doesn't stop spray about who the "onus" was on.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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And who is expected to provide the 'official' technical analysis?
I would be surprised if there is one, at least not the kind we expect.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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" In that regard of checking each other's harness, knots, etc., I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance....there's probably a lesson and warning in there for me to not be so onerous about other folks checking my business."
In my opinion, if people are being belayed/lowered of your harness, then your harness and tie-in are no longer just your business, they are also their business. Your harness and tie-in are part of their safety system. By checking them they are aking responsibility for their own safety and practicing self-reliance.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"And who is expected to provide the 'official' technical analysis?
I would be surprised if there is one, at least not the kind we expect."
The NPS should finish their report months from now. But they dropped the ball on the initial report, so I have low expectations.
But if you look at the hard facts we have--look at Clint's summary--we only have a nutshell account and most of that is from Locker. In my opinion, there's not enough there to start pointing fingers. Who really knows how it happened? It's all speculation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There is no need to 'point fingers' under any circumstance regardless of reporting on the incident, technical or otherwise. Ascertaining facts has some utility, assigning 'blame' or casting 'judgment' regardless of what facts ultimately emerge has none.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"There is no need to 'point fingers' under any circumstance regardless of reporting on the incident, technical or otherwise."
Maybe you didn't type what you meant to? Look up "onus" in a dictionary. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/onus
Edit: Locker, you are EXACTLY RIGHT!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm not. I'm using the word with respect to 'responsibility' and 'burden' (which everyone who us who ties into to a rope owns), not 'blame'. You either aren't reading my posts or are not grasping the difference between specific, technical causality and 'blame' or 'judgment'. Accidents in climbing and other endeavors have specific causality chains described by facts of the incident. There need be no judgment whatsoever around them - facts are facts - again, there is no more good served ignoring those facts then in attempting to assign blame to them - both are simply futile and pointless efforts.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Healje: "You either aren't reading my posts or are not grasping the difference between specific, technical causality and 'blame' or 'judgment'.
I have read your posts and I can even quote them. You are either being dishonest, or you can not comprehend what you wrote in your own post.
Healje, you wrote, "From what I can tell the onus was on Al, regardless of any interruptions by Woody, to insure he was setup safely at the anchor whether for just being there, bringing up Wendell, or lowering Woody. I would suspect distraction was more or less the sole culprit here and that attitudes, histories, and the interactions of personalities were very minor contributing factors at best."
"Accidents in climbing and other endeavors have specific causality chains described by facts of the incident. There need be no judgment whatsoever around them - facts are facts - again, there is no more good served ignoring those facts then in attempting to assign blame to them - both are simply futile and pointless efforts."
You appear to be unclear as to the difference between a fact and a value judgment. "Old school sensibilities" and prejudices are not facts.
Also, you are not basing your value judgment on facts but speculation. I can speculate scenarios which place the "onus" on either one, but it's just speculation. Please don't pretend you're basing it on any "official technical analysis."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Healje: " In this or any other case, and regardless of presence or absence of any safety checks, each and every one of us is 'responsible' for securing ourselves to an anchor at the top of a pitch and checking to insure that we accomplished that as well. That's a 'fact' and not a matter of 'blame' or a 'judgment' call."
If you think that is a "fact" and not a "judgment call" than you don't understand what a fact is. You don't understand what a judgment call is either. Your statement as to who is responsible for tying in is a judgment call, not a fact.
"I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance."
I keep coming back to this because it demonstrates, to me, a lack of understanding of the social and technical dynamics of team (non-solo) climbing. But with this background, I can understand why you jumped to the conclusions you did about the accident.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's a different approach to understanding from my perspective. I have no judgment or blame around why Al ended up not being anchored and it likely could just as easily been me under the same circumstances. That Al did end up unanchored is, however, a fact related by folks who were there, not any speculation on my part.
You are right that, underpinning everything I say is the primary and unwaivering tenant of my 'old school' worldview of climbing that responsibility begins - but doesn't necessarily end with - the individual in all cases, in all circumstances, and from the moment you leave your car until the moment you return to it. I find any notion of group or 'team' responsibility somehow surplanting individual responsibility under any circumstance deeply disturbing in the extreme. Group or 'team' responsibility can certainly complement individual responsibility, but it cannot and should never replace it. The concept of individual responsibility and you being ultimately responsible for your life is the very heart and soul of 'safety' in my worldview, in and out of climbing. But again, and the problem I think you're having with that, is you are coupling blame to responsibility - from my perspective that is utterly pointless in dealing with an accident or it's aftermath.
An infrequent part of my business is technology-related disaster recovery - tens of millions of dollars per day and lives can be at stake when I get a call of that type. Backward-looking responsibility ascription (blame) is both entirely irrelevant and counterproductive in such circumstances; understanding the facts and causality chain, or what is sometimes called forward-looking responsibility ascription is, on the other hand, essential to ending a disaster and to the process of restoring services. The same sort of approach or mindset is used in sorting out complex, large-scale outages of power grids, fires, oil spills, aviation accidents, etc.
Ascribing moral accountability or blame is a behavioral default in our society, and I understand it is difficult for most people to seperate notions of responsibility from those of moral 'accountability' and 'blame'. That it's hard for the average person to accept the idea and paradox of someone being responsible yet not at fault or to blame. However, understanding the roles involved with accidents, the scope of responsibility associated with those roles, and the options available to each to exercise those responsibilities are at the heart of both accident analysis and disaster recovery. In climbing, anchoring is more strongly associated with, and ascribed to, the role of belayer rather than any climbing or lowered role because those roles are quickly dislocated from the anchor and any possibility of exercising responsibility over it.
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Does anyone know/recall which route they climbed? Locker? Wendell?
Bill
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Couchmaster, I really appreciate your description of how my friend Deb died so many years ago. Some of the information you shared is news to me. I also say belatedly, thank you for being there. I know there was nothing you could have done for her. It sounds like they were in very capable hands with you being a first responder. No need for the graphic details, but I'll say it must have been very difficult for you guys to climb that pitch with Deb and the other guy hanging next to you.
23 years ago I was fairly new to climbing. Deb was my first close friend that died in a climbing accident, and I remember feeling crushed by sadness, and for a period of time I felt direction-less in life; feelings that are common when one loses a friend or loved one. (I know because I cannot count on one hand how many friends I have lost to climbing.) There were others closer to her than I, but nonetheless it really hit me hard.
As much as I wish it otherwise, this is a part of our passion. I was recently involved in a very serious accident, in which I was the first and only responder. No death, but a serious injury to a person that is not only a friend, but someone that has inspired my climbing. I've been thinking a lot about things such as use of a helmet, various risks of different types of climbing, communication while climbing, parenthood. . . All the various posts about Woody, a man I never met causes more thoughts. I'm afraid I haven't come up with too many answers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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My condolences Locker - must be tough all the way around. I'm making my thread exit here as well...
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Double checks don't share the responsibilty, it means each partner is being responsible for their own safety, not just depending on the other partner's checks.
If Al fell by himself that would be his responsiblity. Once Woody was put on belay both of their lives were on the line, both had responsibility to check the system.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The lesson= Don't ask, don't tell, don't think......
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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No stzzo, just a general comment.
I don't agree with the idea that doublechecks lead to some "communal responsibility" and leads people to be less safe because they feel someone else is also checking. It just doesn't jive with my experience and statistics.
That's like people who say "I don't wear my seatbelt because I heard about a guy who was thrown free from a car and would have died if he stayed in it." Yeah and for every one time that happens there are thousands of people who lived because they had their seatbelts on.
For every time somone let down their guard and didn't check because they thought their partner had checked things out and it led to a problem, there are probably thousands of times where a double check revealed a problem that was fixed and saved someone's ass.
There have been too many deaths and accidents that could have been prevented by double checks for me to be silent on this issue.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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fet i agree-
it's just as shared a responsibility as if the climber had begun to untie, stopped halfway for some unknown reason, forgot about it, and then decided to be lowered off, weighted the rope, and fallen to his death.
certainly that climber would have had some responsibility, but the responsibility, IMO, would be shared by his partner, if he'd failed to check his partner's knottttttt...
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couchmaster
climber
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Author:
wbw said: "Couchmaster, I really appreciate your description of how my friend Deb died so many years ago. Some of the information you shared is news to me. I also say belatedly, thank you for being there."
You're welcome. The part remaining in my mind all these years is that I did my best and it still wasn't enough and could never be enough. I don't beat myself up, but it sticks in my craw. I did have an opportunity to redeem myself years later when one of the most experienced climbers in our area nearly died while slipping on a down climb to come visit and hang out, and it pleases me to no end to hear him tell other people that Bob and I saved his life as I believe it's the truth. Its not often you can really make a difference, and it feels damn good when you do. It was my daughters first day ever climbing real cliffs she must have been 10 or 11 then. Somehow the shock, blood, broken bones and chaos disturbed her and she never climbed again.
I don't think this stuff ever truly goes away. Just a few days ago, last Sunday, my buddy called me (I answered on a ledge while climbing) and said he and his girlfriend were at another climbing area were coming over to climb after lunch with me - they never showed up. I got home, saw the news a man and a woman died climbing right where they were and was like "NO WAY". I was relieved when a check of my phone showed a text message that they had been the first responders and had tried their very best to help. Lots of other folks were there trying to assist as well. Their lack of success is equally difficult for some of them.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/families_friends_will_miss_fal.html The lil kids, aged 5 and 7 were standing there watching their daddy slowly die right in front of their eyes. Damn, damn sad.
wbw said: I'm afraid I haven't come up with too many answers.
I have about that many as well WBW. I guess just love deeply, life rich full lives, and enjoy our lives while we have them is maybe it. Live well and rejoice that you can keep her memory alive and got to spend time with what must have been a remarkable person as you describe her. To those who loved Woody, time will never, ever erase their good thoughts of the guy. I wish you all the best in this painful time.
__
Richard in Bend: as posted above "BTW, I was thinking this earlier but it needs to be said: big props, no HUGE ONES to Matt for his fast response and right choices on this one. I told him that it was a perfect thing in a bad situation, where you have a kick-assed climber who can just flash up and can get you down fast, and there on the ground is a doctor waiting to help you on the next critical step. If either one was not there......Al might not be here with us either. Shock can be sudden and it's real. Props to the Dr and all who helped or tried to assist.
Matt climbed up, lowered down to Al, clipped Al off onto his harness, cut Al's trail line and then quickly lowered down to a waiting physician.
Regards to all
Bill
ps, for the record: when I go, I want a huge wake, where every climber or buddy who ever tied in or knew me shows up to drink, grab a microphone and talk sh#t about me. In between this raucous bullsh#t, my family is auctioning off my gear stash to people who need and want it. Select friends can choose a piece for free before the auction to carry a memory. I want tears, laughter, crying, hugs and memories to flow. And when it's over, it's done and over and folks go life full, deep and happy lives. (this is my thing, not giving any advice here)
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kwok
Trad climber
Claremont, CA
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I have been silent because I am still processing what happened. Moreover, Wendell told me and Tia that he would write up a report and post it. The following may fill in some details about what happened the fifteen minutes before the accident: it’s a slightly edited version of the “accident report” that I emailed Dan Messaros, Lost Horse Ranger district (NPS), on Mar 24, 9 days after the accident. (I replaced “the green-blue rope” and the “gray-red” ropes in the original report with “rope #1” and “rope #2)
Just to preface the report: I have also been silent because many of you here know Woody far better than I did: I had climbed with Woody for about 12 – 15 times: the first few times were with Woody and Blake (or others) in the ’03 to ’05 seasons, and more recently with Woody and Wendell (and Liz Ying and Tom Martin). I will post my tribute to Woody, something I did not mention at the Memorial Service, on the “Woody appreciation thread..” But this is what I sent Dan Messaros, (I apologize if it’s too terse, I was just trying to give Dan the “essentials”)
The sequence of events as I remembered:
(1) Woody lead Desperado (10a) on rope #l.
(2) I followed, trailing rope #2 for Wendell to climb. I tied a figure-8 on a bight near one end of rope #2 and clipped it with a locking ‘biner to the haul loop at the back of my BD harness (probably a Momentum)
(3) I cleaned Woody’s gear as I followed. However, there was one piece I couldn’t get out. So, I back-clipped rope #2 to it.
(4) I got to the top. I did not see how Woody was anchored in. Woody was dehydrated and wanted me to lower him ASAP. I cannot remember when I untied myself from rope #1; I might have done so as soon as I got to the top since the area of the top was pretty large and it was pretty flat. But I am sure that I untied myself from it at some point.
(5) Woody had placed two camalots in a horizontal crack at the top. (But I don’t remember anything clipped off of these two cams.) He told me to add a third piece using the gear I had cleaned. I did so, and it took me 2 -3 minutes to finalize on a placement I was completely happy with. I knew Woody wasn’t too pleased with how long it took me. Regardless, I equalized the three camalots with a green cordelette and with either a figure-eight or an overhand knot. I then clipped myself off to the equalized anchor with a sling that was girth-hitched to my harness via a locking ‘biner: this is a habit (clipping off via a sling) I developed from my sport-climbing days.
(6) Woody was busy doing something when I was fixing the anchor but I wasn’t paying attention to what he was doing. Shortly after I clipped myself into the anchor above, Woody handed me a bight (Fig-8 or overhand) or a clove-hitch that was tied/hitched on rope #2 and said something. I do not remember if he said, “Tie in” or “Clip in” or “Clip this in.” All I remember was that the following went through my head, “Woody is the quintessential trad climber and all ‘old-fashioned’ trad-climbers like to clip into the anchor via the rope because it can absorb more shock than a sling,” i.e. I interpreted that bight/hitch Woody gave me as something he wanted me to tie into the anchor with. So, I clipped this bight/hitch into the locking ‘biner I used towards the end of step (5) and removed the sling (girth-hitched to my harness) from that locking ‘biner.
(7) At this point, I thought Woody was ready to be lowered (since he has already tied himself into rope #1). So, I started to put rope #1 through my belay device (a Petzl Reverso) that I was going to lower Woody with. However, Woody wanted me to hand back all the gear I cleaned. I did so. I then proceeded to lower Woody. I remember saying, “Woody I am going to lower you very slowly as if you were down-climbing,” and Woody answered, chuckling, “Not that slow.”
(8) Regardless, I lowered Woody slowly because I want to make sure I was in control. I HATE lowering people because I only weigh 125 pounds. Anyway, the first 5 to 8 feet (when Woody was still on relatively flat ground) went OK. Then I remember being tugged very hard by Woody as I lowered him further: I pressed down with one foot (to prevent myself from being pulled further) and held very hard with my right (brake) hand to stop him from moving.
(9) Next, I remember being airborne and screaming. I remember seeing another body in the air with me and my glasses flying off me.
What happened (/what Wendell Smith and I figured out:)
(i) I was not really clipped off to the anchor. When Woody was “busy doing something” in step (6) above, he was puling all the slack (70 ft or so) on rope #2 (the trail rope) and asked Wendell to tie in.
(ii) Wendell had climbed more with Woody and knows that Woody didn’t use clove-hitches. So, when Woody handed me that bight, he might have just given it to me to clip to myself somewhere so that the trailing rope wouldn’t be flying/dangling around …
* * * *
My postlude to the report:
In point (8) above, it was probably the first 10 – 20 ft (when it was still relatively flat) that the lowering went OK.
As Wendell mentioned in his report: I have forgotten most of the details about what happened immediately after I stopped falling. However, I have very bad eyesight (-8.0 Diopter, both eyes) I remember that the rope(#2)/harness was sort of pulling me away from the rock, and I was trying desperately to move (with difficulty) towards the rock. Once I finally got to the rock, I remember trying desperately to move further to the right to sink a hand jam into a crack: I remember I was freaking out because I don’t know if it was just some horn that caught the rope I was falling on …
Matt, THANK YOU for getting me down.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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[Edit:] Thank you, Al.
(I was posting at the same time):
Bill,
About the (1986) Trezlar accident, could you tell me more about how the ropes were threaded? You stated one of their ropes was threaded through a rappel anchor 10' to the west, and the end of one rope was clove hitched to a cam. Let's call that rope hitched to the cam the second rope, and the guy was tied into the end of the first rope. The ropes were also tied together. Does this mean at the end of the fall, the climbers ended up weighting both the rappel anchor and the cam? And was the distance from the guy to the rappel anchor the length of the combined 2 ropes, minus the 10' over to the cam?
It makes me wonder what the cam was for, if only the end of one rope was clipped to it. It sounds like it was meant to be a directional, but Deb either didn't clip it, or became detached from it.
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couchmaster
climber
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Thanks Al.
Sure clint, I'll hand draw something right now.
OK, at times like these, I wish I could draw. It's been a long time, but here it is I think. The two ropes were joined as if they were gong to rap, their was a friend directly behind their stance near the top of the crack where the rack and shoes remained, but it had been cloved short to the anchor, but not clipped into.
The knot by the 2 x's is to show the two ropes joined together. The other rope wasn't hanging but was stacked on the ledge and not tossed yet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Al, thanks for posting that. We are incredibly lucky and fortunate to still have you in the fold - nothing whatsoever wrong with taking whatever time you need to either process, or more important, recover as fully and best you can.
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couchmaster
climber
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Same here Al, glad you are with us still.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ohh man that sucks so bad... You basicly had it rigged the way you wanted it and and you thought your partner wanted you to chang it so you did and it was just a missunderstanding and it sucks and its not your fault. That really could happen to any one. So sorry for all that happened....
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks for the drawing, Bill - now I understand the (1986) Trezlar description fully.
Even if they were short on slings, Deb could have clipped a knot in the rope between the cam and the rappel anchor, and anchored the rope to the rappel anchor as well. If there was not enough slack then the clove could have been moved....
I suppose since the cam was poor, maybe the guy did not want to rappel directly from it, and hoped the ledge for lowering would provide improved safety. Unfortunately the lowering increased the risk. It's so sad that she wasn't clipped into an anchor.
Deb's lack of anchor may have been due to a change in plans - maybe they set up the rappel first and had temporarily forgotten about the cam on p2 which she was unable to clean. Then they changed plans to figure out how to get the cam, but did not reconfigure the anchor to handle the new plan.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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what a weird accident. don't blame yourself Al...
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OfBlinkingThings
Boulder climber
Jackosnville, Fl
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So unfortunate and sad. I really hope that everyone involved in the accident can see that circumstance and bad luck were the major factors in play. No-one needs to drive themselves mad with guilt. No amount of analysis will undo anything that has already been done. Things happen and sometimes they are horrible. I hope the family and friends of the deceased can see how much people cared about Woody and how many lives he touched.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Thanks Al.
It really helps to know what happened so we can all watch out for similar situations in the future.
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matisse
climber
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Al,
Thanks for posting that. I can't imagine what you or any of Woody's friends are going through right now, but I wish all of you nothing but the best, and I'm sorry about your friend. Al I hope you are ok.
Sue
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks for the details, Al. This agrees with Wendell's description of how there was a miscommunication on anchoring, which didn't get checked in the hurry for Woody to get down and deal with dehydration.
It was clearly a pretty close call for you - nearly lost both of you. Take it easy in the healing process.
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couchmaster
climber
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I think that's it Clint.
By the way, speaking of folks I'd tie in with. I'll be in the valley May 2-16th if you are around and want to tie in. I'll have a super strong newer climber with me in tow that wants to get up the East Buttress of El Cap (if it's dry) and a few other routes. I'm a bit out of shape, but that should easily be well within the range for me.
I'm at Billcoe at Gmail . com
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Bill,
I'll be around in May - hope to see you in the Valley. The East Buttress of El Cap is usually wet in May - it starts out dry in the morning, but then the wind usually shifts at around 11am and Horsetail Falls gets blown onto it. The rock is very slick at that point (above the 5.5 arete), and there was an accident there in the spring a couple of years ago. Plenty more to do; I usually do it in November.
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Richard
climber
Bend, OR.
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Thanks Couchmaster.
Thats what I was looking for!
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Ropeburn
Trad climber
Riverside, CA
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Hi Al,
It was good seeing you the other day and we hope to see you soon (possibly at HVCG next week with Wendel and the gang). As for this thread; to me it has now completed it's purpose and I am checking out.
Blake
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Thanks again Couchmaster, and also to Clint for applying your experienced and analytical mind to Deb's accident. You bring up a good point about a possible change of plan. Applying the same system to a scenario that has changed could easily cause an accident.
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