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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 30, 2009 - 12:51pm PT
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Saw this in the Denver Post, guy was very lucky to survive. Good objective rappelling lesson, NEVER put the rope through webbing alone! Glad this dude lived to tell the tale to his kid.
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_12029503
By Edward Stoner
The Vail Daily
Posted: 03/30/2009 10:10:08 AM MDT
Chris Boratenski, shown with his ice climbing partners, sustained nine broken vertebrae, a collapsed lung and a broken nose in his 72-foot fall. (Courtesy vaildaily.com)VAIL
Chris Boratenski was suspended 72 feet above the ground when he felt a pop. A second later, he felt another pop.
Then he went into a freefall.
He watched the rope that was supposed to be supporting him coil like a snake at his side as he fell.
"The only thing that went through my mind was envisioning my wife and my son, who just turned a year old two days ago," Boratenski said last week. "I just said, 'I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I wasn't going to be there for him.'"
Boratenski, 31, of Evergreen, and two friends were climbing the Designator, a massive, vertical ice formation that hugs a cliff near East Vail, on March 21.
As Boratenski will readily admit, his own mistake caused the accident.
He was the
This photo shows Chris Boratenski climbing the designator ice feature March 21 in East Vail. Boratenski would later free-fall 72 feet after an anchor broke. (Courtesy vaildaily.com)first one up that morning, using a technique called "lead climbing" to ascend the ice. At the top, he prepared a rope for a different technique called "top-roping," in which a rope runs from a person at the bottom, through an anchor at the top, and then back down to the climber.
At the top, Boratenski found nylon cords as well as a metal carabiner. He used the nylon instead of the metal as an anchor, something he now knows was a terrible mistake.
"It was a major oversight on my part in that friction caused when rappelling off the top rope is going to burn through those anchors," Boratenski said.
His two friends both used the rig to climb up and down the Designator. By the time it was Boratenski's turn again, the nylon was primed to snap. Which is exactly what happened.
He doesn't remember the impact.
Based on photos, he and his partners later calculated that the free-fall was 72 feet to the nearly-flat ground below. His friends told him that he landed on his back and tumbled another 30 feet.
Apparently, he slowly began to regain consciousness about 30 seconds after impact.
It took rescuers 30 minutes to reach him, and two and a half hours to get him down to the ambulance.
Boratenski said he didn't expect to survive the fall. He came away with nine broken vertebrae, a broken rib, a collapsed lung, lacerations to his face and a broken nose. He was released from Vail Valley Medical Center on Wednesday.
Doctors believe he'll make a full recovery, though he'll have to spend eight weeks in a back brace.
"I consider myself extremely lucky," he said. "I'm so thankful that it was me that fell. I can't even fathom if I was the one to set those anchors and (his climbing partners) Oscar or Charlotte ... ," Boratenski said, his voice halting with emotion. "If those guys had been ... ."
Boratenski said he's been ice climbing since 1999 and has done big climbs in Ouray and Banff, Alberta. He's done much more difficult climbs than the one in Vail that almost took his life, he said.
"That very well could have been a big part of the problem, that I was overconfident and too comfortable in my surroundings up there," he said.
He said he plans to ice climb again.
"I can't blame ice climbing for what happened up there," said Boratenski, who works as a mobile technology consultant. "All I can blame is my own lack of oversight in taking the right precautions and doing the right things.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Mar 30, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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dumbass, glad he's ok though!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Mar 30, 2009 - 01:07pm PT
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I'm glad for the climber and his family that he survived!
From the description it sounds like toproping and lowering, not rapelling as stated, is what weakened the anchor cord.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 01:10pm PT
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Its amazeing that anyone stills makes this kind of error?? It is just unthinkable that someone would set up a yo, yo TR and not beef up the fixed anchor and use at least 2 biners.......
Here in the north east we regulerly rap from Vthread anchors constructed with both webbing and cord without useing biners. Lowering through the same anchor will kill you pretty darn quick............
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2009 - 01:13pm PT
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Chiloe, you are correct in your a*#esment. I think many do the same thing while rappelling, I know I have on many occasions. This guys event just reminded me what a bad idea it really is to do it anytime. Seeing it actually happen kinda drives the point home.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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When we climb multi pitch up at the lake etc there is allmost never leaver biners on the V thread rap stations. The Tree anchors at the top allmost allways have biners/rings etc. Part of it is that the thread anchors melt out or freeze over quite often so they get redone or beefed up regulerly. I allways inspect for burns where the rope is pulled but rarely see any of that kind of evidence. The fact that these anchors exist at the most for 3 months and often only a day or so makes this practice acceptable to me.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mar 30, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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I'm glad to hear the climber is okay.
But one NEVER uses cord over cord.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 02:05pm PT
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Never use cord against cord to lower. It is safe enough for rapells but should not be done at permanant fixed anchors. For that matter permanant fixed ancors shold not have any cord or webbing used in their construction if at all possible INMOP
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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This just highlights the pathetic state of education in this country. The inability to think logically, let alone understand the coefficient of friction. Guess they never rubbed two boy scouts together.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Mar 30, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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BITD, people routinely would bail from webbing or cord-only anchors. If you came across one already established, you'd check it carefully for signs that previous rope pull-throughs had burned the nylon. It often seemed prudent to add another wrap of your own, leading soon to a big mess of fixed slings until somebody came along with a knife.
It did not seem to be very likely that one rappel (unlike repeated pull-throughs) would melt the webbing, unless you let it saw through while rapping two ropes that slipped through your rap system at different speeds -- and we watched out for that.
Although sling-anchor rappels were common, I don't recall ever *not* understanding that lowering or belaying through slings could cut them. So how does one get good enough to lead Rigid Designator without this basic knowledge?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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That was bugging me. That thing looks like its 5ish. Could be a case of strong arms, weak mind?
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 02:31pm PT
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Little scary to hear of it this way but the results could have been worse.
I know all three involved and have to say I am surprised that Oscar let alone Charlotte and Cri (not Chris) missed the anchor.
God's speed to a quick recovery...shit happens when you aren't paying attention.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Never trust a v thread made by another climber unless you can see the whole rig and know it is good. There was a fatality a few years ago near Banff when a visiting climber used a v thread set up earlier in the season. It turns out the thread had a long loose end. When ice built up around the cord the good thread was covered and the loose end was frozen so all the climber saw was a loop coming out of the ice with no evidence of the V. it popped when he weighted the rope.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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The Rigid Designator is the most famous ice climb in Colorado. Couple that with the fact that leading ice is way harder than following (the gap is much larger than in rock climbing) and lots of times you have a situation at the Designator where you have one experienced leader being the rope gun for a lot of less experienced or less competent ice climbers.
Bruce
ps - having said all that, what the climber did was a pretty rookie mistake.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:15pm PT
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I wanted to make this a separate post, but here is another no-no that might not seem obvious.
Years ago, my partner and I were rebolting a route at Pinnacles National Monument (Long's Folly). We had two ropes doubled through the anchors one on top of each other as we each worked on portions of the climb. When it came time to pull the two ropes, we pulled his rope first because it was on top of my rope.
You can guess the result. His rope was fine, but the one spot, right at the bend at the anchor, where his rope slid across mine, wore through to the core. We should have pulled both ropes together rather than one at a time.
Bruce
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Dude's very lucky...hopefully he's less careless in the future.
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Swedeclimber
Ice climber
Los Altos, CA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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I was standing 15 feet from Cri when he landed...
I don't think it is so much about knowledge or education. As Cri said in the above referenced article, he felt very confident during the climb and made a mistake by leaving out the most important part of the anchor while threading the rope for his initial double rope repell. We all repell off softgoods all the time - may be he didn't think that this would also be a jo-jo anchor... He doesn't know himself. But, if asked before hand if it's ok to use only softgoods for a TR anchor, he very well knew that doesn't work.
Here's my three learnings:
-I could have asked him "Cri, how did you thread the anchor" once he came down on his double rope. That would have prevented the accident since I would have led up an re-done it.
-Both me and my wife Charlotte followed on TR, however neither one of use climbed the last 5 feets up to the anchor and double checked it.
-I used the same anchor when I led the climb the day before the accident (yes, I used the biner). However, I wanted double back-ups so I used a 6mm cord (spectra/nylon) as a second backup. The anchor now had the sling w. the biner, a 1/2" sling as back-up and the 6mm cord. Now to my learning: The 6mm cord burt off in Cri's fall and hence didn't at all work as a backup.
Think about it... do you always check others TR anchors? You do? Good for you. I didn't. Did you know that cords make really back back-up's? Good. I didn't.
You live and you learn.
Peace.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:20pm PT
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Another recommended tip when rapping off a v-thread : back it up with an ice screw (or two) for the first person(s) down. Make a new one if there is any doubt at all.
Sad to hear of this accident, but glad it is not more serious.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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I'm pretty sure I could get hurt doing something stupid too - it just won't be running a rope through webbing for a TR.
Kind of sounds like someone was too stingy to add a biner to the anchor.
Give the guy a point not setting a TR through 1 biner.
Curious - did you booty the 1 biner that was there?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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hey there all... very very good that he survived and his family did not lose him...
also, thanks for sharing and warning others, and most important--good to know that he will share what this mistake does...
for folks that climb, you all set out really strong important infor here at supertopo---i know, you all have constantly said (as you shared) that it is stuff folks should know, but folks being individuals and having their own mind-set, may not listen (as you all have also learned)... so keep up the good work..
ps:
say, i was coaching and teaching some kids once, and still do, but not as a public school teacher, etc---but i have learned that every one learns differently, and sad to say, some learn only by constant repitition of the results set before their eyes (in differnt ways) (and sometimes in adverse ways), as they seem to think that they already know all the facts and that nothing will fall out of line for them.... and in truth, they may know such---but they dont always know the "what happens if..." can strike anyone (and when it comes and upsets what "normaly may be okay" one is in dire trouble)...
well, what i'm trying to say, is---people are just grown up kids, and we can always keep learning and adding more to our plate of knowledge... especailly, when there are other 'catalyst' that have adverse effects on certain foundations...
you folks are really great here, at sharing so much...
climbers have a vast chest of knowledge from you all...
*did NOT mean any of this, agains the man and his fall....just sharing as in general to how people are always like kids, in some way.... needing a guiding hand, and more facts, than they may at first realize...
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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A good friend once said to me - "We all do dumb things, and most of the time we get away with it. But sometimes we don't."
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
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well gee, too bad he is hurting, good thing his kid has a daddy still, BUT...
i see no reason to sugar coat anything here.
it's f*#king unbelievable to me that this guy somehow got to the point where he is comfortable leading ice climbs, and still is able to make this elementary mistake. i mean seriously- the guy set up a TR for his friends, with no metal at all?!
seriously, think about it, the guy would have had to untie and then re-thread behind the webbing, right? why would you do that? so you don't have to clip a few biners? i don't get it as a "mistake", sounds more like something he chose to do (of course that is just speculation w/ no foundation).
running the rope behind webbing or cord, not for rapping but for TR'ing, that's simply negligent (in fact i think i remember something in CO several years ago where a woman sued some guy who took her out and said he knew what he was doing, but then the all webbing/no metal anchor he built failed and she decked from the TR).
was this his 1st lead ever?
was that the 1st time he ever dealt w/ a non-chain anchor?
(and did his friends have any experience? were they aware of his level of competence? do people really just go ICE CLIMBING and not openly discuss their safety systems? that's just absurd to me)
and in the article posted above, he talks about missing his wife and young son, well what about his partner's wife and son?
the only thing worse that killing yourself with stupidity or carelessness would be killing someone else with stupidity or carelessness and having to carry that around with you.
edit-
too bad the guy got hurt
lucky to be alive
but this just goes to show you that whomever you choose to climb with, you are responsible for yourself and your own safety at all times, period.
further, it at adds to me inclination to tell people being unsafe that they are flat out being unsafe (which sounds simple but there are always so many shades of grey).
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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I agree that you allways back up the V threads unless you personaly set the anchor or can see the whole thing. Often I am the guy who set that anchor a few days or a week ago ( I also often use two or more threads) so it is interesting for me to see how the various weather patterns affect them. Some of the busy classics @ the lake and Cannon end up with huge anchors so it can be pretty kosher to just go with what is there provideing you use your head. This accident really is crazy though. The leader had to know how he set his rope up and it is hard to fanthom why he did not say. Oh crap! I didn't set the rope for a TR, we better pull it .....
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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do you always check others TR anchors?
Yes, that is the habit I got into when I started climbing, but even moreso when climbing with new partners.
Sorry again for what happened :(
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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I also check TR anchors. Even if I am just up there soloing I will look at the anchors as I cut accross the top of the cliff and won't hessitate to help someone correct a critical mistake. Worst accident at our crag was A Failed TR anchor.
I ended up guideing a NYC coupple for free one day when it was obvious that the gentleman did not know how to build the trad anchor that he was fumbling with. I was really laid back about it and asked him if he wanted help with it. The guy was smart and gladly accepted. I gave them a TR/ anchor building lesson and allmost dropped them a half dozen times because she was so smoking hot that I couldn't concentrate to save our lives!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Mar 30, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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back in the day a buddy of mine did the same stupid thing. Ran out of biners so he wrapped a sling around the rope (lead climbing) and somehow attached it to the rock, then led on. He later fell, burnt through the web instantly (obviously) and decked. Broken back. He too was 21 or something, full of spit and no sense what-so-ever.
I think Pete or Ricardo said years ago when discussing a big wall accident - some people just don't belong up there. There is a certain degree of common sense necessary or you are just a risk to yourself and others.
How many professional "courses" would one have to take before the instructor bothered (it seems so obvious) to tell you "don't ever run rope through nylon" I doubt they'd actually ever articulate that little bit of wisdom. But most of us have figured it out somehow....
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Mar 30, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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I'm glad this guy is more or less o.k.
It sounds like he rigged to rap and then the party decided to yo-yo the route without remembering to re-rig. Probably an honest yet major mistake.
I don't know shite about ice climbing, and never will, but it seems like a popular route would have rings or some other metal at the anchor?
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Matt,
"running the rope behind webbing or cord, not for rapping but for TR'ing, that's simply negligent (in fact i think i remember something in CO several years ago where a woman sued some guy who took her out and said he knew what he was doing, but then the all webbing/no metal anchor he built failed and she decked from the TR). "
The incident you are thinking of was in Utah. The gal it happened to is a friend, the guy was a dirt bag and the jury agreed.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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From the description it sounded like there was either rings or a biner at the rap station. Why that was not used is a mystery. Even if he only planned on rapping there would be no good reason to not use the rings or biners. Sounds like one of those decisions that he will have to live with and ponder the rest of his days. So lucky that it was the leader and not annother member of the party that got hurt.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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Chiloe asked the question I was wondering about.
How on earth do you get to the point of being confident enough to lead the Des without dying and yet not follow one of the most rudimentary rules of the game?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:22pm PT
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72 feet on the back, the body is amazing, heck, how high do we have to go to be assured of not surviving?
I just want to get knocked out and die, non of this quad stuff.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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Sh#t like that happens, be careful, out there!
on the other hand,
I belayed Roadkill Phil once when he led the The (rigid) Designator. He stayed up at the top to belay me and my fogged glasses.
"Whadya get in for a belay anchor?" I asked from mid-height.
'Some slings frozen into the ice," he answered.
Kept me on my front points!
When I got up there and cleaned my lenses, I saw that he had a more substantial anchor than he had led me to believe. I like climbing with people that have that sort of sense of humor!
Roadkill Phil, 'Bouldering' around the base of the designator, just after the turn of the century.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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this guy should sell his rack and go free solo, so no one else gets hurt.
in Extreme Ice, the guy had to drill three long holes for an anchor because the ice was too mank for a screw.
then he rapped into an river sink hole that went 1/2 mile down thru the glacier.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Mar 30, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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rhyang,
> Another recommended tip when rapping off a v-thread:
> back it up with an ice screw (or two) for the first
> person(s) down.
amen. a climber _way_ better than me (not that that that limits the field all that much) -- taught me long ago to back up any v-thread rap with a screw for at least the first down. and if things still looked sketchy, burn the screw. he convinced me i was worth a screw (um, as it were).
but was it a v-thread? or just some tat off something more permanent. nothing i've read tells anything on this front.
~~~
rapp'ing off of old nylon... well, i've done that. t'roping off the same, nylon on nylon, is rather counter-indicated. friction happens, even in the cold and wet. but then all those nearby (and hopefully even the rest of us) have since figured that out. i've done dumber things, so who am i to say.
~~~
i wish chris a quick and complete recovery. and peace to Swedeclimber and his beau; a very rough day out, surely.
^,,^
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Swedeclimber
Ice climber
Los Altos, CA
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Mar 30, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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philo and Chiloe does have an interesting point. To me though, this is exactly what separates a mistake from bad judgement. For bad judgement there has to be judgement and consideration (and this should indeed always be part of climbing), but for a mistake it only takes... well, a mistake.
I've climbed with Cri for years and always trusted him. Still do. Although he will have to shapen his game when it comes to building anchors :-)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mar 30, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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"I think Pete or Ricardo said years ago when discussing a big wall accident - some people just don't belong up there. There is a certain degree of common sense necessary or you are just a risk to yourself and others."
We all make mistakes from time to time [like me when I busted my leg] and some of us are lucky enough to live to tell the tale. Some mistakes are a result of a small series of mistakes, a synergistic effect where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And others are a result of just plain being boneheaded.
We know what kind of mistake this was.
So it's fortunate he lived to tell the tale! Don't do such a dumbass move again. Good luck in your healing, mate - see you back soon, eh?
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jbar
Social climber
Asymptote
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Mar 31, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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I guess I gave the guy credit for having the ability and experience to leat up the designator. In reading the article I never assumed he pulled the tr rope directly through the webbing. I was thinking someone had placed the webbing and rapped from it and this guy comes along and places his biners on the old webbing instead of from the metal anchors. This is also not a good idea since he didn't know how long the webbing had been there, etc. I thought the story was that he yo yo'd his friends from the suspect webbing using biners and then it broke on him after he cleaned the gear and started his rap. Did I totally mess that up?? Could ANY lead climber truly be o.k. with pulling a tr through bare webbing over and over?
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Mar 31, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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I use to believe only idiots made mistakes...then after several decades of climbing I did. Resulted in a 30' ground fall and a year plus of recovery.
Nice that we can make mistakes and learn from them. But I am long past condeming anyone...that lives or dies from a mistake in our sport. Obviously they are so easy to avoid in hindsight. Just takes one momenatry lapse of judgement or attention.
Not may of us here can say that has never happened, just that the lapses have yet to catch us at the wrong moment.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 31, 2009 - 06:27am PT
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hey there dane burns... say, well said... even with kids, and house hold chores, the same saying goes...
and in so many different ways...
at work, too...
one must always take care...
god bless, thanks for the share...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 31, 2009 - 08:19am PT
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The thing that bothers me with this mistake was that time durration. Most rapping accidents are flash decisions and over before you know it. Example.. Earlier this year I leaned back into a rap and I was only connected to the rope with my auto block. I never threadded my rap device! I skipped a crucial step and allmost gave you guys the opertunity to call me a moron, ect, ect... I did a stupid thing and the result was fast and irreversable. Rapping off the ends, lowering off the ends ect. is the same thing. By the time it happens its all over. The Rigid Designator incident there was a considerable time frame to correct the mistake.. How can someone hang arround yo,yoing for half an hour and not recall how they set the anchor??? Especially when it is their turn to do annother lap.
I mean no dissrespect and I know this is a touchy subject on this forum but if I was investigateing this incident I would have to ask if there was any hippy lettuce use involved.. Asking is not acuseing. Just a question that would INMOP be appropriate to ask when trying to determin the factors that may have contributed to an accident.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Mar 31, 2009 - 10:29am PT
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stupid is is stupid does....
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Cloudraker
Big Wall climber
BC
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Mar 31, 2009 - 11:00am PT
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stupid is is stupid does....
hey stupid, stupid is as stupid does.....
edit: sorry, couldn't help myself
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
Littleton
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Mar 31, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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What a dummy.
I do like the name of the reporter tho. Our last names go very well together. :-)
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 31, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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Mistakes tend to be made by those who are noobs and just don't know better, or by those that have been climbing for a long time and get lax with safety. This isn't a climbing specific thing, goes for all activities.
Double check, don't rush, and don't be too cheap to leave proper gear at anchors or when bailing. Also have the materials to re-place webbing and rap rings at permanent anchors. I was rapping off an ice climb I hadn't done before and found that the rap ring had been nearly worn through from idiots top roping through the ring. Unfortunately I didn't have a spare ring with me, but there was a lap link to back up the ring.
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KathyS
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 31, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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"don't be too cheap to leave proper gear at anchors or when bailing"
Friends don't let friends rap off junk. I usually carry donor material to leave if there is any question. My life is worth way more than a nylon sling and a booty biner I got for free.
Kathy
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 31, 2009 - 06:48pm PT
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#1; The first question is weather or not he was aware that he was just through the webbing and not through the rap biners or rings.
#2; Then the next question would be if he was aware that the rope was only through slings and not the metal why did he let his friends and himself lower and TR on that setup?
#3; Was he aware that the setup was incorect and then forgot that he set it up that way?
#4; Was he unaware that this type of rigging is allmost gaurenteed to fail in this application untill the moment it failed?
If the answer to #1 is. No he was Not aware that the rope was only through slings and Not through the rap rings or rap biners then you are back to a single incorect decision that was not checked or noticed by the other climbers in the party..
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 31, 2009 - 07:06pm PT
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rwedgee's video is why I don't climb iceicles!!!! (1:52 in the vid)
Not to mention all the sharp tools falling with ya. As Matt is fond of saying, "Ice is for cocktails".
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Mar 31, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Blue,
Looks like when your worst fears come to life.
I just stick on the wimpy fat stuff, that is attached to the walls. If you look at this pic where the two guys are approaching there is a free hanging bit of ice just a tad to the right of them. This year it formed all the way to the base of the wall. I thought I'd give it a go. When I approached it I noticed a crack that went clear through the base, that didn't instill much confidence. I figured I'd just bolder up it and see how it fealt. It just didn't sound good when I got on it, so, I got off it.
I e-mailed my buddy about that, and he said, oh yeah, the free hanging stuff always sounds wierd. Hmm, no thanks!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Mar 31, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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glad he is going to be alright...
some of you on here are pukes.
remember the woodyst thread? everyone was so sensitive, but when you dont know the poor guy you throw out all manner of BS.
reminds me of jr high....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I watch that interview and he repetedly states that he CHOSE to use nylon instead of metal for his anchor. He does Not state that he accidently threaded the nylon instead of the metal. I really wish this guy would clarify that for us. And I would still like to know if Hippy Lettuce was involved. He also states that he would Not have made this mistake when he started climbing at age 15. Interesting stuff.
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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I know and have climbed with Cri. No drugs involved. He made an obvious error on the anchor. I suspect he forgot they would be top roping after his lead. May be Oscar or Cris as he reads this can clarify but I bet he rapped off after leading (who hasn't rapped off slings) and then they decided to TR the route.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dane, thank you for answering that question. I will take your word for it.
See how easy that was.
Now if we can gets Cris take on weather he accidently missed the rings or did not use rings or biners on purpose.
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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"I've never rapped off slings"
Sh#t,.no slings? I've rapped off freaking boot laces. Just never tried to TR off them. I don't generally look at every anchor as something to TR off...more likely just as a rap station to get off.
I might suggest if you have never rapped off just slings you've spent way too much time on the computer and not enough climbing.
I'd take Cri for a partner any time.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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By all accounts there were fixed rap slings with metal rings or biners. Why did Cri not use the rings/biners? was it accidental or deliberate. If it was deliberate why did he then allow people to top rope on this setup?
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Using the biner....no mistake
Having seen the biner and not using it..."my mistake"
Seems that question has already been answered.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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So he deliberatly did not use the biner knowing his friends were going to do laps on it?
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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"So he deliberatly did not use the biner knowing his friends were going to do laps on it?"
I can't answer that obviously. But I suspect that they hadn't thought about top roping the climb origianlly as all involved were capable of leading it.
But no one knowledgable..deliberately hangs a TR on just nylon unless they want to commit suicide or kill some one. I think your answer is in Cri's comments about when he first dropped on the TR as the original piece of webbing failed and then the second moments later. He mentions "knowing what had happened" and thankful he didn't hurt one of his partners by the mistake.
Some amazingly brilliant responses here. Hopefully something was learned by those needing a lesson. Cri certainly got his reminder to do it right the next time out.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dane, I ask this question as this is a situation that I have been in dozens if not hundreds of times. You just led a pitch and either lowered or rapped and someone wants to do a lap on my rope. Many times over the years I have had to answer that the rope was not set for a TR we better pull it and re lead or You better check it when you get up there to make shur its running right case I didn't set for a TR. Etc Etc. . I am just haveing a hard time wrapping my mind arround deliberatly not useing the rap biner and still letting someone run laps on the rope. I can see setting the ropes up and then realizeing that I didn't get through the rings and possibly being lazy enough to say what the heck, I am only rapping, it will be OK. (highy doubtfull as I would feel guilty for putting extra wear on the slings when pulling) I just cant get past the next part though.
I am certainly not above pulling dumb mistakes. I have had at least 2 close calls rapping. But those mistakes as mentioned earlier are usualy snap decisions. This was wicked prolonged. Especialy when Cri took an additional run up the climb..
Could it be possible that he was aware the whole time that he was running nylon on nylon and didn't think it was really that dangerous until he heard that pop?
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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I obviously have no clue. As Oscar stated he never bothered checking the anchors after Cri set up the rope...I wouldn't have either. I will personally check any anchor I am using in the future no matter who I am climbing with. But in almost 40 years of climbing I haven't always done so.
Obviously there was a disconnect on what Cri knew he should be doing and what he did....simple mistake...mental lapse. Why? Only Cri knows. I took a dirt dive because I was thinking about things other than climbing...while climbing. Seems like a reasonable price to pay for the inattention....could have been worse.
I had a lapse in concentration while climbing 11 months ago. I've since spent 3 months of that time in bed and the next 7 months working hard at my own rehab. Costly certainly and gives one food for thought. When you stop concentrating on or thinking about climbing when climbing, or learning from climbing, probably time to stop climbing. Or you might well be stopped from climbing or breathing for that matter.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Even after 26yrs climbing and fairly reguler free soloing I am still blesssed with enough fear that I check anchors constantly. Still dosen't make me immune to screwing up and going splat. I do have a sticker of Mother Mary with the baby Jesus on my helmet. Maby that will help?
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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like I said in my silly little thread- " better lucky than good!"
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Rope directly through webbing? That's not a mistake just anyone could make...
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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I use to think anyone that got hurt climbing was either an idiot or a fool. Then I got hurt.
Sh#t happens. If you are lucky...you'll climb again. If not....there really are worse things in life.
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hatestocarry
climber
gunks
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Sorry to be harsh, but that fool deserves a runner-up Darwin Award for not only endangering his life, but the lives of his friends.
Rule #1: Don't F*#k Up & Die
Rule #2: Don't Take Anyone Else With You
...and who wrote that original "analysis" of the accident? Clearly NOT a climber.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nederland
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Glad yer allright BUT, You get the wooden pliers award for being a bonehead! As was allready stated:
Rule 1; Don't f*#k-up and die.
Rule 2; Don't take anyone else with you.
and finally,
Rule 3; See Rule 1
Mahalo!
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