Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Messages 1 - 30 of total 30 in this topic |
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 3, 2009 - 04:08am PT
|
OK, weird question of the month award, at least weird as far as climbing-related...
Ed Leeper told me once that he'd sold between 80,000 and 90,000 of his hangers over the 20+ years he made them.
Did anyone here work at SMC and have any idea how many of the old thin SMC hangers were sold?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Well I still have a bunch of them, thin enough to still cut keyhole hangers out of them.
Used a bunch of them putting together Prodigal Sun as a clean route.
Then somebody went up there and replaced a bunch of buttonheads without talking to me first.
You wouldn't know who that was would you Greg?
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2009 - 04:38am PT
|
I'm sure lots of hangers never made it to the point of rusting away on the cliffs - my dad has 10 Leepers he bought in the '60s and never placed (half with 1/4" Star-Dryvins, half with thread-head 1/4" split-shafts).
Ron, if you're talking about 10 years ago, it was probably ASCA-sponsored replacement:
Prodigal Son Replaced all anchors and most protection bolts (16 total). Some bad protection bolts remain on last two pitches 09/99 Jason Stevens and Jared Nielson
I don't know if they talked to you or not. We do try to contact the FAs but we weren't so great about that early on.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
If they had you might have gotten the name of the route correctly,..
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
Those old thin plated hangers have more problems than rust. I've found some where the 'arm' of the carabiner hole near the fold was broken for no apparent reason. There might have been as many out there as Ed Leeper's...
ec
|
|
Darryl Cramer
Social climber
|
|
They are still around:http://www.smcgear.net/
They use to be located a couple blocks from my house but a few years ago they moved north of Seattle. I think the right question to ask is not how many hangers they sold but how many of each design/material type.
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
Guy around here shattered an ankle when one broke on him during a lead fall. Not good.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
They were what was available at the time. Certainly replacement when used as critical pro is warranted, however it is also the responsibility of any leader to carefully examine and understand pro history and potential flaws and act with appropriate skepticism and caution.
Seeing them as time bombs is a bit simplistic.
|
|
Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
|
|
Your advice seems contradictory Ron. On one hand you say that it is the responsibility of the leader to assess the situation and on the other hand you say it is too simplistic to say they are time-bombs... A bolt should be viewed as trustworthy (bomber) or not (time bomber), there really isn't room for a gray area in there, at least in my opinion. Most of the SMC's out there are pretty freaking old, using old compression bolts that are...spicy to say the least....
eh, just don't fall.
-n
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Nick,
> A bolt should be viewed as trustworthy (bomber) or not (time bomber), there really isn't room for a gray area in there, at least in my opinion.
In my view, there's plenty of gray area, but at some point everyone has to decide if a given bolt is something they feel is safe enough to use at the moment. So the two views may be equivalent once you have to make this type of decision.
For first ascent belay anchors and free climbing protection, given the low cost of stainless 3/8" bolts, and good quality carbide tipped drill bits, there is little reason to choose 1/4" and/or nonstainless, except maybe if you are drilling from a difficult stance.
Replacing hangerless aid bolts is a much trickier issue, because you need to match the original concept of low visual impact and sometimes aid routes are designed to be somewhat scary.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
"Seeing them as time bombs is a bit simplistic."
Simplistic, yes. Time bombs, yes. I take it as an absolute. I have seen too many older (thin, plated) SMC hangers with cracks. A frequent site of cracking is from the bolt hole to the outer edge. The steel was brittle, or there was a manufacturing defect in the heat treating or plating process. They were dangerous junk when they were made.
I am not aware of any problem with the modern SMC hangers made from thicker, stainless steel.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Thanks Clint.
Let me put it this way; I may have what looks like a bomber nut, but before I run it out I'll probably look for another just in case.
We know bolts do fail occasionally. Climbing has risks. We either deal with them successfully or quit climbing,.. one way or another.
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
There is a two fold problem with old bolts.
Firstly folks in the old days generally held with the principal of the leader must not fall. Hence bolts were placed sparsely, it sucks to drill by hand from a stance, and the bolts might have held, but in general weren't tested by falling on them.
Secondly in the several decades since the bolts were placed they have been degraded through corosion and there is a cadre of newer climbers that think nothing of falling on lead.
Every piece of lead pro should be scrutinized weather fixed or placed by the leader. If a piece is suspect it should be backed up, the leader shouldn't fall, or the leader should replace that manky bolt before clipping a going.
If everyone carried a bolt kit, tuning fork and a few 3/8" ss bolts, the world would be a better place then relying on the efforts of a few dedicated souls to replace the many manky bolts out there.
|
|
Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
|
|
Clint wrote, "So the two views may be equivalent once you have to make this type of decision."
That is kinda where I was going with my comments. There is plenty of gray area when you think about the actual strength of a 1,5,10,30 year old bolt but it all comes down to, do you trust it and for me, that is a black and white question.
Piton Ron wrote, "I may have what looks like a bomber nut, but before I run it out I'll probably look for another just in case. "
Those were my thoughts Ron. I only commented because you were starting to sound like Werner with your enigmatic comments. =)
tolman wrote, "If everyone carried a bolt kit, tuning fork and a few 3/8" ss bolts, the world would be a better place"
Lord help us if that ever happens!
-n
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
My comment about the bolt kit is in regards to folks replacing mank when they come across it. Not that I want a bunch of goobers out there botching bolt placements.
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
"If everyone carried a bolt kit, tuning fork and a few 3/8" ss bolts, the world would be a better place then relying on the efforts of a few dedicated souls to replace the many manky bolts out there."
...and there would be a lot more manky bolts out there.
I've seen Greg and few others in action and these guys are absolutely experts at placement/removal/replacement. They take it very seriously and take a lot of pride in craftsmanship.
the average climber, or in my case, below average climber, has probably never touched a drill. In thirty years I've placed less than 10 bolts. I'd have to place many, many more to develop the judgement, the swing and the tendonitis required to drill a dead straight 3/8 hole in Meadows granite...and stance drilling on lead is exponentially more difficult.
edit: tolman_Paul you beat me to it
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
"I have seen too many older (thin, plated) SMC hangers with cracks. A frequent site of cracking is from the bolt hole to the outer edge. The steel was brittle, or there was a manufacturing defect in the heat treating or plating process. They were dangerous junk when they were made."
Most likely: hydrogen embrittlement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement
ec
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
|
|
why Greg?.. is there a recall comin? LOL
Now, more importantly... which routes have them as anchors?
Good luck
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Compare and contrast the newer stainless steel SMC on the left with a top fractured (center)and intact (right) plated chromemoly SMC hangers.
Worth noting is the shift in position of the SMC stamp to allign with the long axis of the hanger on the reliable stainless version. If the bolt itself is rusting, it can be hard to tell the two hanger types apart other than by material thickness.
SMC claims that they have never had a failure with their stainless steel bolt hanger. I personally like the design and am happy to trade for Petzl Couers if anyone out there has a stash to trade. I have a lifetimes' worth of old bolts
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
Anyone have a SMC hanger of the 'generation' between the old plated and the stainless? They were coated (powder/anodized?) black.
ec
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
Mar 12, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
|
Anyone know Which one this is?
Shot a pic of this one at Pinnacle Peak. It's the first bolt on the route Shalayly Direct (11c).
POS?
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 03:34am PT
|
Older generation SMC. Not stainless steel. Definitely a POS which should be replaced.
I'd also recommend a minimum 3/8" x 3" bolt, due to the large grain size of the granitic rock.
That is, if it wasn't already replaced. This info from RC.com:
"Left of Fear of Flying and above the two ring bolts. Layback past one old SMC bolt (thanks for replacing this one) and onto face with three new bolts to a step into a crack. Climb crack to a 4 bolt headwall with a bouldery move. I think one bolt was added to this route 21 years after the FA.
Submitted by: climblouisiana on 2004-11-22"
http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/North_America/United_States/Arizona/Phoenix_Area/Pinnacle_Peak/Summit_Eas...side_/Shalaylay_Direct_61921.html
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 09:25am PT
|
Thank Juan for confirming what I suspected.
And no, it hasn't been replaced.
At least as of yesterday at around 5pm.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 10:12am PT
|
The product stamp orientation tells the tale every time.
ec- Are you sure that the blackening wasn't a stainless wash to cut down the shine rather than an alternate plating or finish? All the blackened ones that I have are of the stainless variety. Have one that looks suspicious?
|
|
mooser
Trad climber
seattle
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 10:26am PT
|
Anyone ever get the retroactive willys, thinking about bolts we used to clip?
|
|
meclimber
Trad climber
Dover, NH
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
|
or still clip!
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
|
Steve,
'not sure. I know when new they had a dark, almost black 'metal flake' finish to them, and looks like the last picture posted when weathered. The stainless variety might have been those, however I know that bright stainless were the final generation sold.
ec
|
|
mooser
Trad climber
seattle
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
|
"or still clip!"
Yeah, if I'm scared enough, I'll clip anything...
|
|
T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
|
|
Mar 13, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
|
The "Black" finish might be Black Oxide like Cam Hooks and Beaks?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Mar 14, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
|
It would have been plating of some sort to prevent rust. Bare, blackened chromoly rusts readily. I will go look through my bolt buckets and see if I can nail this down.
I posted those SMC hanger shots to help people recognize the problem hangers and what the stress cracks actually look like if you have to make the call. An AidScreamer or two around back of your gear loops may allow you to get by in one piece.
|
|
Messages 1 - 30 of total 30 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|