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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 15, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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Hello my fellow climbers. I want to let you all know JESUS CHRIST is coming very very soon. I tell you this as a friend and from a caring heart it comes from love, the only kind of love when you have CHRIST in your heart. I am a Christain a family man and a rock climber. It is my duty as a Christain to do GODS work and spread the word that he is coming really soon.
And let me tell you the signs are all around from the economy to homosexualality, fornication(sex without marriage) adultery, murder many many people are on the wrong path. The people without CHRIST will be judge before him and if there names aren't in the book of life they will be cast into the lake of fire. Hey man I tell you reader that the time is now to make a decision. JESUS CHRIST died on the cross for all our sins.
In the bible John 3:16 says "For GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever belive in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Some people belive that the bible is just a history story, in a way it is. But it is the word of GOD and was written by man. Men who walk with CHRIST and witness the crucifixion and resurection and wrote about it. What applied then still applies to this day. The bible is our owners manual on how we should live. Trust in CHRIST and you will live a happy life. GOD will always be there for you and help you in the most difficult times here on earth. Until that day when CHRIST returns a life with CHRIST in your heart is great! Yes it's hard to have faith and put your trust in something that you can't see. My brother and sister let me tell you. I lived a life of sin. We were born of sin, because of Adam and Eve. But GOD forgives. You just have to ask for forgiveness. I lived my life sinful, doing drugs, lying, stealing, fornication, a foul tongue. GOD can not allow sin. I am not perfect. Even as a christian satan tries to temp me to sin. But I have GOD in my heart and my faith in the LORD is strong. The bible says in Ephesians 5:12-18 to take on and put on the full ARMOR OF GOD! It's hard to imagine because it is a spirtiual power only in the faith and acceptance in CHRIST JESUS that you would understand. I pray to CHRIST to always protect me against satan and that I stand strong against temptation engaging my SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is the word of GOD! MY SHIELD of faith to extinguish all the flaming arrows of evil! The HELMET of salvation! The BREASTPLATE of rightousness and stand firm with the BELT OF TRUTH buckled around my waist!
Beliving in GOD and his mighty power the ARMOUR protects me from the dark world and against spiritual forces of evil. My brothers and sisters, I speak the truth to you all. I have used it! AND IT WORKS!
I know that this all sounds crazy and fanatical. Think what you may. But I am giving you warning that CHRIST is coming!
Theres still a chance for you to be saved and become born again, it's not to late. But don't wait to long. I tell you this from my heart. You can become saved but praying to GOD and asking him to come into your heart and ask for forgiveness. You can say a prayer like this and mean it, have it come from your heart.
Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner.I am sorry
I thank You for dying on the cross for my sins,
and I turn from that sin now and ask You to come
into my life as Savior and Lord.
I choose to follow You from this day forward all
the days of my life.
Thank You for calling me and accepting me.
In Jesus name I pray. Amen.
Again, that's a really simple prayer. But it's a new beginning, and if you meant it, Jesus Christ just come into your life. You may feel tearful or excited, or you may feel nothing at all. But the point of this is not how you feel, but what GOD has just done for you. He says in the bible that you have become a new person!
I hope that this message touches you all. For the time is coming the hearts of many are hard. But GOD loves you all. I truely hope you make that change, because hell is for real and spending eternity in hell, I wish not for anybody.
I recommend reading the bible, reading info how to become strong in faith and living the life GOD wants you to live. There are many websites to help you in your endevor to have a relationship with CHRIST. Find an Christian church, pray to GOD for guidance, wisdom, knowledge, he is there for you...
Know this the earth is our temporary home. Are real home is in
HEAVEN with the Lord! JESUS LOVES YOU...
Read this book: "23 min in hell by Bill Wiese" His story about what he saw, heard, and felt in that place of torment his experience in hell and the message that CHRIST gave to him for us to hear heed and be ready for his return! His message to Bill was. "Tell them I am coming very, very soon!"
http://www.soulchoiceministries.org
http://www.harvest.org
check it out.. A
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Feb 15, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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Feb 15, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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'bout time.
That guy still owes me twenty bucks
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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Praise the LORD and pass the pitons!
As a Believer, I have to agree with most of the above. In the meantime, buddy, you'd better fasten your Armour of God, cuz you're sure as hell gonna need it after posting that here!
In Him,
PTL and PTP Pete
P.S. You, um, might want to check your Helmet of Salvation - the chinstrap might be a little tight, eh?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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Jesus is coming, and is HE PISSED!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Of all the people in history, I'd most love to have a beer with Jesus. Or at least a glass of wine - he can buy, or make. ;)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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Dear Mr. apostle:
1. That's quite the first post to SuperTopo.
2. Isn't it rather arrogant for you to use the pen name "apostle"? Any chance we could see some of that meekness and humility your religion preaches, or better still some on-topic contributions to what after is still a climbing forum?
3. Many people here aren't theists, and of those who are theists, many aren't Christian.
4. If Mr. Christ is coming very soon, does that mean he's been playing with himself?
5. The SuperTopo forum isn't divided into sub-forums. However, in the case of religious discussions and rants, I'd be willing for an exception to be made.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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I hear he makes his own.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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He has already been here and gone again. Was seen shaking his head as he walked away.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Smells fishy to me - I wonder if someone at Cochise has a sat phone for internet access?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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Nice, Pete!! :-)
"apostle", (is this blasphemous?)
I'm all for Christian morality, but as a tool to achieve personal and collective happiness.
I don't think a threat that some "enforcer" is coming is very realistic.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:19pm PT
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"Jesus, just left Chicago,
On his way to New Orleans..."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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The OP is bold to post that here, assuming he's willing to stay around and back up his words.
we'll see...coulda just been a troll passin' through.
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andanother
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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apostle,
the last time Jesus re-visited the Earth we ended up with Mormons.
Could you ask him to get it right this time?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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Cochise = Jesusland?
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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I'll make some more.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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He did promise to return. All that evil crap you mentioned has been around since you know when. Now is no different. He also said something about coming like a thief in the night. To me that means he will probably put fear in us and we won't recognise him. There is also that part about no-one will know the time. Good luck. Which apostle do you fancy yourself to be? John? Peter? Judas? Don't say Paul, or you will get it wrong.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:48pm PT
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Good, I have a few questions to ask him...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 15, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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Jesus saw you take it, Brush your teeth with Jesus, and God Loves Nurses, God, Guns, and Guts....(We are very religious here in Joshua Tree......just check out our route names.....)....thank heavens;...God works in mysterious ways..........My 4 year old son said it all in true desert spirit;..." Why did God make cactus with spines?".....
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 05:53pm PT
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Just so you all know. I prayed for you all. It is expected to read negative comments. The words of Christ "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold." And thats what is happening with this age, and is happen right here on the replys. Which is expected. Just remember that, I share the words of GOD with you out of love and concern for you all. Open up your hearts and give CHRIST a try. After all CHRIST was beaten to a pulp for you! Thats how much he loved you! The bible says His Visage (The way he looked) was so marred (torn up) more than any man... Then he died on the cross. Isasiah 52:14
He shed his precious blood to wash away your sins...He was executed for your crimes and mine against GOD.
Using the name Apostle is not blasphemy. After all during the times that CHRIST walked the earth he preached to his Apostles and CHRIST told them when he leaves this earth for them to spread the word of GOD... That is what GOD is having people like me and prechers around the world do we are his Disciples.
Heres what JESUS says about blasphemy. "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
It's still not to late to repent... JESUS LOVES YOU...
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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Oh no, as if a brace (or should that be a bluster) of Republagumbies wasn't enough.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Good one, andanother.
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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Sorry everyone, with current events as they are, and based on my limited knowledge of the Second Coming, you'd swear it was any day now. Many devout Christians like apostle really believe in this prophecy and feel compelled to spread the Word and help 'save' their fellow humans. Please keep an open mind.
apostle, I know how you have to 'witness' before the Lord, but doing it here is really throwing napalm on the fire as you see in the resulting posts. The ST is very free-spirited and quite comfortable in denying Christ and your beliefs. Keep in mind that the climbing lot is very intelligent and favors substance over zeal. Spiritual dialogue and threads happen here but not a whole lot of outright preaching.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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What does it matter that "The ST is very free-spirited and quite comfortable in denying Christ and your beliefs"
Will that slow the coming of Christ?
Edit:
Tell him to come on with it; I'm sitting here waiting for judgment.
Don't make me wait 'til Family Guy is on, eh, I'd rather not be interrupted.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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I think that you should post a picture of you climbing or just a picture of yourself. If you truly knew and loved Jesus you would not be scared to do this. Jesus never hid behind a mask to spread his message. Plus, people might listen then.
I can give you detailed instructions on how to post a pic. It is really very easy.
1. create a photobucket account.
2. upload photos.
3. copy the 4th line of code in the box. When you put your GUI on the picture the codes will pop up.
4. Paste that code to your next post and put it in ( ). Or the pic will not post.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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()
Here is me praying on top of Sister Superior.
Pat
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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If so, I hope I can be his agent.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:15pm PT
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Going under the presumption that YOU are saved and others are NOT is an interesting concept;....you may be preaching to the choir;....actually, climbers, for the most part, are very religious and spiritual;.....If wilderness is my church, then we go quite often. Many times at the crags I hear..."God, that's beautiful..."....and then there is always the " Please God, don't let me fall here......".....
God is great, God is good, let us thank him for our crags. Amen. (And God bless Tiny Tim...)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Very nice, Anders. And Scooter.
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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Mimi. I just want to let people know that JESUS is coming very soon. When you have GOD in your heart you feel compelled to do his works. GOD doesn't want anybody to go to hell. Hell was made for fallen angels and satan. So being that I care for my fellow climbers, I have to share the word with you all.
John 8:31-32 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him. "If you abide in My word, you are My disiples indeed. And you shall Know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
dangling off a wind turbine in a town near you
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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OK,
Enough fun kids.
Yo,
Apostle, you don't do your case any favors looking illiterate. Use spellcheck for CHRIST'S sake!!!!!
!!!!! (for emphasis)
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:32pm PT
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Yep, another who speaks of Jesus but is too scared to really mean it. Just as I thought. You recieved clear instructions on how you could begin your repentence and prove that you are serious. I would like you to know that you really did just turn your back on Jesus by not doing as he did. Which was show his face along with his teachings. Not to hide and be underground. There were no cameras or internet, Jesus could have run off at anytime and lived as a fisherman, carpenter or hearder. You are a fraud. Cowards do not know Jesus. Coward.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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hannaht
climber
Madison, WI
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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I'm mostly a lurker here, but this thread reminded me of a website that I stumbled upon a while ago. Thought some of you might enjoy it.
The Rapture Index
My favorite quote: "You could say the Rapture index is a Dow Jones Industrial Average of end time activity, but I think it would be better if you viewed it as prophetic speedometer. The higher the number, the faster we're moving towards the occurrence of pre-tribulation rapture."
They claim that we're in "fasten your seat belts" territory. Sounds like fun to me!
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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I understand where you're coming from, apostle, just not here. Oh nevermind. Darn, I must find a pic of St. Sebastian.
Chaz, that place reminds me of a sandstone outcrop somewhere in SE Utah. Stan Mish and I were driving around looking for rock and we found this formation with a frontend loader up on a ramp off the ground with doors visible in the side of the cliff. We pulled up about 100 yards away and stopped to look. A few adults and children slowly filed out onto the ramp to stare back at us. Suddenly, a small pack of dogs charged down toward us. The three-legged leader was especially ferocious as it charged my little Toyota truck with teeth gnashing. It was all we could do to roll up the windows and speed away to safety. We often talked about this place in the desert and whether we could ever find it again.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:38pm PT
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Okay now everyone, positions please. Ready, on the count of three. Action!
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 15, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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This one must have just got there, it's not covered in Bible Verses yet.
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 06:57pm PT
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scooter Jesus is who I'm tying to reveal, not myself...But remember JESUS loves you. Nice photo by the way is that Indian Creek?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Aren't all these things "out in the desert"?
These are east of Salton Sea.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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As long as he doesn't mind wearing Nike, I will get him more than Michelle Wie and Tiger Woods combined.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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I'm prayin' for you too, buddy. It's a trap. Love god with all your heart and all your MIND.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Coward. That was another slap to his face! Fraud. I would compare you to the pharasees. No, it is not Indian Creek. Do you really not understand that to be Christian is not to be underground or with out a face. People who know Jesus are not afraid of who they are. Are you ashamed at what you are saying? That is the message you are giving God and Jesus when you do not answer my challenge. Salvation is not acheived only once. You must answer your call daily. Right now that call is to not deny Christ, which you are doing. Judas.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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> Using the name Apostle is not blasphemy. After all during the times that CHRIST walked the earth he preached to his Apostles and CHRIST told them when he leaves this earth for them to spread the word of GOD... That is what GOD is having people like me and prechers around the world do we are his Disciples.
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize that apostle applied to a potentially large number of advocates.
Your explanations are helpful - they show you are serious and interested in communicating.
-
(scooter's photo)
It's not Indian Creek, but it's fairly close - about 90 minutes away. The formation behind/right is The Rectory/Priest and just out of the frame on the right is Castleton Tower.
http://flickr.com/photos/mateosf/2429184058/
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:22pm PT
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Clint: "CHRIST told them when he leaves this earth ..."
It's impossible for "Christ" to ever have left.
He's never ever left nor died.
In the night it's dark and one can say the sun has left.
But we know it has never left, it is just out of our view ....
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
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Werner,
Yes, I agree we can't credibly deny the existence of something because it is not (currently) visible.
As for what happens after somebody's body dies, there's no way (for me at least) to tell for sure, but their ability to interact physically (by themselves) is gone. Hopefully they did something that mattered while their body was alive; that is at least a minimal way in which their (hopefully positive) influence will continue.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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Jesus has been sleeping in Hangar One.
He is homeless, so I brought him some Pop Tarts.
Anybody wanna climb the inside of Hanger Two or Three before they rip them apart?
Cool wood trestling.
Climbing in the Concrete Jungle.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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So if Christ is dead, then why even bother worshiping him and following his instructions?
He can't be dead otherwise the "Christ instructions" are totally worthless.
Life comes from life ......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
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If this thread was really important, the title would be: JESUS CHRIST IS COMING VERY SOON!!!!!1111
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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If it's not important you wouldn't even be attracted to this thread.
But .... you couldn't stay out of it.
Shows
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andanother
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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"And let me tell you the signs are all around from the economy to homosexualality, fornication(sex without marriage) adultery, murder many many people are on the wrong path."
Whoa. Really?!?!?
I had no idea those things were happening. And all right now, you say?
This has never happened before. Ever. Never in the history of the world. Murder? Homosexualality? (sic), ADULTERY?!?!?!?!?!
When did this start? I've been watching the TV and reading papers for over 30 years, and nothing like this has ever been mentioned. If all those things really are taking place in the world, then we are in BIG trouble.
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pakmat
climber
ca
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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hoo-yah Moffett ANG
That Others May Live!
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tiki-jer
Trad climber
fresno/clovis
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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Yo Scooter, did I meet you once at REI in Fresburg?
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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Hello Ed Hartouni. as for the Holy Trinity...GOD, the Holy Ghost, came upon mary and the child was conceived. JESUS was born without sin... He was GOD in the flesh. The blood in his veins was GOD'S blood...Jesus had to be put to death to fulfill prophecy. He shed His bllod (GOD'S BLOOD) the only thing that can wash away our sins.. because He loves us.
When JESUS was baptized, he went uo out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of GOD descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom I love; with him i am pleased.
One GOD in three persons- Father Son Holy Spirit
This is found in the book of 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
yet for us there is one GOD, the FATHER, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one LORD JESUS CHRIST, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Ephesians 4:6 "one GOD and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Timothy 2:5-6 "For there is one GOD and one MEDIATOR between GOD and men, the MAN CHRIST JESUS, who gave HIMSELF for rnsom for all to be testified in due time.
JAMES 2:19 "You belive taht there is one GOD. You do well. Even the demons belive and they tremble!
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT.
The Holy Trinity are three distinct yet equal Persons and indivisibly ONE GOD.
That is the mystery of GOD!
Ed H. I just want to say to you. Thank you for your question and I hope that I answered it for you.
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andanother
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
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I just found out it's all lies. LIES!!!!!!!!11111
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jstan
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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Andanother is in crisis.
Now he knows what he has been missing out on.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 15, 2009 - 08:32pm PT
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Yeah, You losers should listen to Wbraun he knows what's cookin' spritually! He has a test where you jump out of a plane without a parachute at 20,000 feet and before you hit the ground (about two feet above it, in fact) you're gonna believe like you never believed before. That's all it takes just this simple test to prove that there are no real atheists just posers without the balls necessary to really believe. Plus if you land in the water and float you're a witch. All you non believers should give it a try. And anyway Christ came back to earth in 1965. I know this for a fact because I met him and he told me none of you people are gonna be saved. You're all barking up the wrong tree because he's only taking 144,000 people with him and I'm one of them; the rest of the 144,000 are already dead so too bad the rapture is for me alone. You folks should read you're scrpts more carefully! Enjoy eternity! Ha.
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 15, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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I was only 5 in 1965. I thought the 144,000 was a symbolic number. That's why I'm armed to the teeth now. I wouldn't be so vain to believe I'm even part of the symbolic number. Armageddon baby! Bring it on! I'm ready to kill a whole slew of them demons. I just hope they don't bring a super-upgraded cave troll along. You know, the kind of stuff that would give Gandalf trouble.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:13pm PT
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I would like to nicely and politely ask that ya'll make your photos and verbage fit....it is way to time consuming to scroll left forever....pretty please ? :DD
Just a question here: Why is it that anything about Jesus causes such an uproar? Hey we talk about alot of stuff on the Taco but some of you guys flame whenever Jesus is mentioned. How bout a reasoned discussion ? Adults thinking through others philosophies and giving a well thought out reply. Gezzzzz ! :)) Some O Yo kinda going off and over. Jess sayin' from what I'm reading, Lynnie
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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It represents a fear of Christians.
Fear makes people do stupid things.
This is one way we find out who are the true stupid among us, a real gift from God.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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Only the Amish are going to heaven - the rest of us are merely being duped into believing we are one of the lucky 144,000.
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luggi
Trad climber
atwater california
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Ricky D...that would be Jehovah Witness....geez....this is just insane. Pass the Pitons...pour one for me...I would enjoy that
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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I have one more question. What up with some of the "down" comments ?
I've found most on the Taco are pretty darn bright. Why not intelligent discussion instead of the hoodie slams....jess wonderin'. Yo know Lynnie, she wonders alot ...hehehe.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 10:54pm PT
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I like Mimi's idea, "I'll go Lord of the Rings on yerass!!!".
It's not a bad time to be religious!
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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It's not Jesus, Lynne. I think that many of us take this guy as a sacreligous lout, who is using his own ego to presume to speak for god, Jesus anyway. i realize that this may sound funny coming from me, but he Is taking the lord's name in vain.
making fun of this guy, and the 'beliefs' he is arrogant enough to feel he is justified in ramming down our throats is a mild rebuke, in a time honored tradition. It's not making fun of Jesus, or anyone's legitimite beliefs.
he really told Ed off though =)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:21pm PT
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Jaybro, thanks for giving Lynne something to think about. This is where I am coming from. I take pretty much everyone at their word.....which can be a problem sometimes granted. But that's how I'm made (with some alterations.....hehehe still thinking new car. : DDD )
Anyway, the dude did give some bible passages. Granted they were delivered in a Giant Rant. But they are words that need to be considered.
What say ? Would like yo comments. Peace, from a pretty cold Diego.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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It amazes me that God-fearing people are deemed stupid and gullible....I guess we'll just wait and see who was right. The train is stillin the station, you can still board this train.
I do not think that He's coming soon though. Not necessarily. I think we are in a transitional period. We can continue our perverted, corrupt ways. Or we can cleanse ourselvses and move towards the truth and moral ways. I fear we may be lost though...He watches and waits for us to do right.
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luggi
Trad climber
atwater california
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Jaybro...thanks...enough said
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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interesting point, due to the Authoritarian delivery style, I really couldn't pay attention to the actual quotes. I'll look back. There usually is something to those passages. As a teenager i once set up a photo exhibit of my own images of what 1st Corinthians 13 said to me.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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bluey, sooner rather than later perhaps. just a gut and heart feeling. jess sayin', peace. lynne
Edit: Jaybro, do you still have the display ? : D Love to see it.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Feb 15, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Jesus Christ is coming very soon!!!!!
How do you define soon?
People have been saying that for about two thousand years, haven't they? In the year 999 I think there were a whole lot of people screaming, "Jesus is tōcyme swyðe hraðe!!!!!"
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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Ghost, yo pretty funny ! :D lol and a WBraun bwahahaha
So what up with the flaming sword, dude ? X2
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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Jesus Christ is coming very soon!!!!!
Hope your right!
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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GDavis, Yo havin' too much fun at work. Settle down Dude. : DD
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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I have at least some of the matted prints Lynne, wish I had the whole thing, an interesting snapshot of what I was thinking 40 years ago, in some way i think the same, and some ways it's different, now...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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Isn't it the archangel Michael who's supposed to wield the fiery sword? Must go back and read some more Milton.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Jesus is always coming - he's just never arriving.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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When he does it will be with a bang. No one will miss it, no one.
EDIT: So Jaybro can you synthesize it for me or not ....or take some digitals and email. But your life is so full maybe just whenever. No worries, just curious as always about what people think.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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30 minutes (okay, 3 minutes) of "I'm coming, I'm coming!" creates a pleasant anticipation, and it may get me to delay my own satisfaction for a few minutes (okay, seconds), but I have to draw the line at 2000+ years of delayed ejaculation or resurrection! Whydontcha COME already?!?!?!
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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I'd love to do it, Lynne, but for various reasons, it's going to be a while until I can record the source material. Possibly before my spring break in April, when maybe we can baby sit for the family Gordon. That passage has given me a lot to think about at various times in the last four decades.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:47am PT
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I think you miss the point, which is he's never going to arrive...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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He will arrive. No doubts.
Edit: Jaybro, sounds grate. Wonder if they think we are responsible enough....I have credentials And transformers. :D
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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Not coming from an institutionalized religious background, I studied the bible out of sheer curiosity. My conclusions are my own and the meanings I assume relate only to my experiences in life. I found many contradictions and still do. It seems to me that most of the new testament ideas are not from Jesus but from this guy Paul, who wasn't even an apostle. Jesus could have written down all kind of cool stuff, but he didn't. Same with the Buddha dude. The important stuff dealing with the nature of our relation with the cosmos is too readily overlooked in favor of some emotional desire to be "saved". Only 144,000 out of the billions of souls who have lived and died meaningful lives? It seems that God must be awfully wasteful, vindictive and cruel. That's not the god Jesus tried to unveil. What we have is a religion about Jesus and his followers not the true religion of Jesus. Just some thoughts that probably only mean something to me.
Live Upfull.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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Not buying into the 144,000 ever, Wayno. We're talkin' God here. He is way beyond the people that contrive to put him into labeled cubbie holes that fit their finite minds, that make them feel comfortable and all knowing. No way Dude. God fits no little, people made boxes. God is.....look around. He is unlabeled. IMHO lynnie
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:15am PT
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Don't get me wrong, Lynne. I was merely pointing out some inconsistencies that I found. I pretty much see it as you have so eloquently stated.I never bought into anything with a number in it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:50am PT
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”Not buying into the 144,000 ever, Wayno. We're talkin' God here. He is way beyond the people that contrive to put him into labeled cubbie holes that fit their finite minds, that make them feel comfortable and all knowing. No way Dude. God fits no little, people made boxes. God is.....look around. He is unlabeled. IMHO lynnie”
The notion of only one hundred, forty-four thousand being saved is another ridiculous, uninspired doctrine. It’s hard to comprehend that it could have been formulated, let alone believed by any spiritual thinking people. Should we imagine that the Eternal Father of all mankind would condemn all of his limitless children but a mere 144,000?? If you look at Revelations 7:4 you will see that the word referring to the 144,000 is “sealed”, not “saved.”
The 144,000 are servants to be SEALED and to give God’s messages to the rest of the world prior to the second coming.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:57am PT
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to paraphrase...
If you meet Jesus on the road, kill him.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:07am PT
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Why is it that people feel they have a better understanding of these things than others and therefore must convince them how wrong they are. You can't save anyone but yourself. Give advice only when it is asked for otherwise it falls on deaf ears. How many times have you argued with someone for extended periods only to realize you were both trying to say the same thing with different words, and then still feeling like you won or lost the argument? Human nature, I suppose.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:13am PT
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I'm with Bill Maher - it's embarrassing that adults would believe such utter tripe. The triumph of religion over reason is exactly what's driving religious extremists both domestically and abroad. I personally consider religion inherently dangerous by definition as it's always a bell curve continuously generating unavoidable lunatic orthodoxies and cults - and the line between "normal" suburban christians and fanatic islamic jihadists and suicide bombers is a damn short one from where I sit.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:16am PT
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Wayno, my post was in reference to a well known fact that one rather large sect believes merely 144,000 will be saved. My post wasn’t mean as ridicule of your statement.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 03:26am PT
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Healyje, I pretty much agree with you but I was wondering how you define religion? Do mean the experience these extremists choose to call religion. I've run into plenty of these kooks but have also encountered good, balanced people that claim religion as the tool for their clarity and perspective . They both call it religion but obviously they are different things.
edit- Jennie I didn't take it that way at all. My next statement wasn't a reaction to anything you wrote, either, more of a reflection on the general attitude. I actually like what you have to say. It sounds like you've done some work on the subject.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 04:48am PT
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Wayne, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. - pretty much any form of organized religion. By 'organized' I mean dogma writ small or large. I was working with Leo Ryan and his staff on environmental issues at the time he was killed in Jonestown, that qualified from my perspective, as does any number of groups such as Aum/Aleph, Heaven’s Gate, Opus Dei, Scientology. In general, I view orthodoxies and cults as unavoidable manifestations of religious evolution - they're mutations shed from the body of the world's religious mainstream on an ongoing and continuous basis.
Just who is it that certifies 'prophets' from Moses, to Muhammad, to Joseph Smith, to David Koresh, to L. Ron Hubbard, let alone the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman empires? On just what basis should one person's or one civilazation's belief be given veracity over another's? What lends the Bible any more credence than the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, Dianetics, or Harry Potter for that matter? It's a perposterous notion on the face of it. A quick look through your local yellow pages under "Churches" should be proof enough of evolution for even the most ardent skeptic.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:05am PT
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O.K., well put. Those are good questions that reasonable people should ask. I like good questions, even better than good answers. Socrates was one clever guy.
edit- When I read a lot people's posts, the word "control" keeps coming to mind.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:59am PT
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Saw HIM recently at 30th and Arapahoe, scared the sh#t out of me,
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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will it be the blonde haired
blue eyed version, or the
one that looks more like
osama bin laden?
as for god being "unlabelable",
yo keep calling it a he and
its probably pissing her off.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 16, 2009 - 09:51am PT
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Paul Roehl said Yeah, You losers should listen to Wbraun he knows what's cookin' spritually! He has a test where you jump out of a plane without a parachute at 20,000 feet and before you hit the ground (about two feet above it, in fact) you're gonna believe like you never believed before. That's all it takes just this simple test to prove that there are no real atheists just posers without the balls necessary to really believe.
Why does such an inane statement seem so "obvious" to you. I just took a 75 footer in the Black Canyon a little over a year ago. Fell head first for the most part (kind of a Cameron MO as Brunosafari could attest). I can assure you, no thoughts of God, or Jesus, or belief in the afterlife crossed my mind, not immediately before, during, or after my fall. And you think it takes "balls" to believe? How can somebody force themselves to believe in something - particularly something like a religious idea that inherently requires faith rather than reason?
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MikeL
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:03am PT
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Ed, that's not fair. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" is a saw that refers to the nondual and is a reproach to those beginning to take pride in their spiritual achievements. If you are taking spiritual refuge in a doctrine or concept of any sort, then you don't get it. You've missed it. Kill that idea. No concept or principle or doctrine will get you there. They are just pointers; they put you on the path, but they don't take you down the path. YOU do that. You must have experiences, and if you understand those experiences, then they will turn into realizations that will change your being.
The Buddha said many things that were contradictory as he used "skillful means" to convey meanings to people of various skills and realizations. (Would you talk to your daughter the same way you would talk to your professional colleague about some technicality?) In the end, he said people should make up their own mind based upon their own experiences. If anyone wants to know the meaning of anything, then that person needs to perform the injunction. If you want to know what art means, then you have to practice it. If you want to know what algebra means, then you have to practice it. If you want to know what climbing means, then you have to practice it. If you want to know what a form of spiritualism means, then you have to practice it. You can see for yourself. It's that simple, and it takes a commitment just like anything worthwhile. However, as one learns and progresses, different learnings will occur that will mean giving up old points of view that were learned earlier. That happens in any field of study.
There is no external proof for anything. Everything is a belief, even physics. Scientifically, you can't prove anything, and you can't falsify anything unless you believe in the absolute certainity of the sigma of a distribution or a level of confidence of some statistical measure (.05 or some such arbitrary standard). In the end, it's a leap of faith on everything. The best thing any of us has going is a direct apprehension of anything, epistemologically.
The nondual: not acceptance, not rejection. Just peace.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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Paul Roehl was making a sarcastic joke towards me and everyone starts flipping out that it somehow remotely resembles anything true.
Hahahaha
The internet is way to funny sometimes ....
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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details on that fall, Eeyonkee? 75 feet is getting pretty close to a big one!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:55am PT
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Wow, that's gotta be the most selfish, broken, and delusional thing I've heard or read in while...
Although it was very uplifting. I relish in the fact I'm correct in my a*#umptions that the bulk of people on this planet are just plain f*#king stupid.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Apostle
You seem sincere and I think your Love could take you a long way if you dropped the fire and brimstone.
Few people have turned their hearts to Love under the threat of eternal torture. People didn't love Hitler, or Stalin, and the God you project, according to you, is a much worse despot than those guys.
Fortunately, you only seem to know the letter of the scripture and today's fundamentalist interpretation of it. I suggest one of two things
1 Either stick to the redemptive power of love and forgiveness preached by Christ and let it transform you and those around you.
or
2. Do some academic and serious research into the formation of Christianity, the formation of the Bible, and read some textual criticism by serious scholars of the Bible. Read the teachings of Jesus separate from the interpretations of Paul, who never met Jesus, and ask yourself "Why would Lord Jesus choose a man who was out to exterminate his followers as his chief teacher?"
The return of Jesus has been expected as immanent ever since he was executed. Jesus himself said plainly in the gospels it would be within one generation.
Fact is, nobody knows and yet for thousands of years the end has been near. He better come with guns blazing or he'll be thrown in Gitmo.
How will you know him? Last time he came he severely criticized the traditional, common interpretations of his own religion at the time, Judaism, which he observed faithfully. If he comes again and criticizes Christianity, will you consider him a cult leader as he was considered then?
Don't make a idolatry of a Bible that you haven't really studied behind the scenes. God and Jesus are Spirit, Here and Now. YOu don't have to wait for any return.
Peace
Karl
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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and ye shall know him
with thine eyes.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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Very nicely put Karl.
Case closed.....
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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I didn't know Satan had man boobs.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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The devil is in the details.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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"Behold the baby Jesus! "
Please don't tell me you're gonna nail it to a cross...
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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excellent reply Karl, thanks for that.
Baby Jesus = G-O-D spelled backwards!!!!!!! Love it!
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andanother
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:43pm PT
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I love it when people try to rationalize with the religious folks. It's like talking to a brick wall.
If they had the ability to rationalize, then they wouldn't be religious! You're trying to have a mature conversation with a group of people who have chosen a life of immaturity. They refuse to grow up, because being a child is just easier.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:00pm PT
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Nice stuff Karl.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Interesting and timely thread, and what a great place for this discussion, given that this crowd is among those most often out in the most beautiful and amazing places.
Good job Apostle in laying out the facts:
Of course there is a God.
Jesus said he would return, of course he will, and this will be the most rad event the world has ever known.
These discussions always bring out a wild mix, and apparently have done so for a few thousand years. I always wonder about the angry detractors: Is this a case of "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up"? Or maybe it's a case of "Anything is possible when you don't know what you're talking about". Either way, we ought to be patient (and respectful) with those who angerly diss the Love of God.
Genesis thru Revelation cleary speaks of the redemption of Mankind thru a Divinely appointed Savoir. Sounds like Love to me! I think I'll hang with Abba!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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The Easter Bunny is coming very soon too. Don't deny that fact.
Mmmmmmm. Chocolate.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows speaks of Lord Voldemort's return - personally I'm not impressed by either book's veracity, though I do believe Lord Voldemort's return is far more imminent than Jesus'...
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 04:17pm PT
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"Jesus said he would return, of course he will, and this will be the most rad event the world has ever known. "
Flanders!,
Maybe rad for you but for non-believers, pick-your-religion, it should suck pretty bad.....
Muslim, Jewish, and Christian End-Times Prophecy Comparison
..and those non believers make up the majority of the world, from a given religions view point.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 16, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Apparently HE's finally arrived. Landed in Texas yesterday, I believe, though the government's currently trying to keep it a secret. They claim what the public saw as a chariot across the sky was simply a meteor. Sean Hannity has already gotten to the bottom of the whole thing and will interview the son of man on Tuesday. It's all over Fox news. Promises to be quite a story. Sean says the liberals are all good as dead! Looks like the lord chose Texas because they have so many rattlesnakes and Pentecostals there. Also, Bush resides there and, of course, he has a swimming pool.
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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Karl...Yes I am very much sincere and concern for people. As for fire and brimstone, that sounds really scarry I can't even fathom the thought how GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah raining down fire and brimstone, he destroyed the entire city because of sin and homosexuality. GOD doesn't play games. Look at all the natural disasters that happens and the many people that get killed, as a strong beliver in CHRIST you realize that it's GOD'S wrath... The bible says to fear GOD... I fear GOD...
Fear of the LORD is the foundation of true wisdom. And the way of the wise is, "Morality, Integrity and Fear of GOD."
You know Karl it's not GOD'S desire for anybody to go to hell were it will be for eternity. The fire the brimstone, the torment of your soul.. "HEll is a place of unrelieved torment and horrible misery...a place of impenetrable darkness...a place of fire...a place of unrelieved torment for both body and soul. Hell will be horrible for everybody there, but some people will suffer more than others.-John MacArthur."
I think that people should really open there hearts from the hardness of wickedness and open up the minds and there eyes to see that the Bible speaks the truth of events that became of pass and of things to come...
As for being a Christian my love for all is stong and my heart goes out to everybody, it goes out to people that I don't even know. But know this I share the same passion with you people and that is climbing rock. I have been a climber for 12 years and I still think that the most beautiful place to climb is Yosemite. And you know GOD created that beautiful place.
Also Karl I speak of CHRIST with love and compassion to all that reads this topic of the return of CHRIST... The harsh and blasphemous remarks are forgiving by me, but know this GOD is using me to speak of him and spread the word of CHRIST JESUS'S return and to be ready. So those who speak blasphemy to me is really speaking blasphemy to GOD! But remember GOD forgives all and he loves you. GOD is a patience GOD, but one day his patiences is going to run out and CHRIST wil return like a theif in the night and those left behind it will be to late.
JESUS tells us that there is coming a day when he will return. He will come quickly for all of his people and we will be taken to be with him in heaven.
If you are a Christian you will go immediately into the presence of GOD. But if you are not a Christian, and by that I mean if you have not asked JESUS CHRIST to come into your heart and be your SAVIOR and LORD, the you will be left. Don't let that happen to you. It can happen so quickly.
I read that archaeologists uncovered extrodinary ruins in the town of Herculaneum, which is close to the ancient city of Pompeii. In 79 A.D., the violent volcano Versuvius erupted there so suddenly, so quickly, that the scientist that found people literally frozen in time. They uncovered Roman solders with swords in hand who had been killed instantly.
Think about that. Theses solders didn't even know what was about to happen. Then boom! Dead in their tracks.
Thats how quickly the lORD'S return could be. Suddenly, JESUS will return.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet...we shall be changed.- 1 Corinthians 15:52
And as for Hitler and Stalin...I'm not here to talk about World War 2 history... But I will say this the atrocities that were commited against people, that was pure evil the works of satan using people like hitler to kill and destroy Jews.Satan uses people to commit vicious acts and he causes people to betray and decive one another. As a matter of fact hiter was a Roman Catholic and he even had Jewish blood in his veins. Satan uses religion. Don't underestimate satan. He is a master deciver.
"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpant of old, called the Devil and Satan, who decives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Revelation 12:9
As for using scripture Karl...It is something that I and many other Christians use.It has to do with taking up "The Whole Armor of God!" The book of Ephesians gives insight into the nature of spiritual warfare, we as Christians face daily. Our combat is against forces, not men or women. Great is the protection and resources GOD has provided us as Christians to meet the enemy. It's spiritual armor GOD supples.
"Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the sheild of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, which is the*word of GOD; Ephsians 6:14-17."
So Karl that is why I use scripture. I not only use scripture but the HOLY SPIRIT is in me... You see only when you have faith and love for CHRIST you will understand these things that are very difficult to a person that does not have CHRIST in there heart.
As for the Apostle Paul (Saul of Tarsus) yes he hunted Christians had them arrested and was even there when the Apostle Stephan was stoned, he was to be the first Apostle to be Martyred in the name of CHRIST. The LORD choose Paul to preach the word. Jesus even said unto him. "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? And Saul said, "Who are You LORD?" Then the LORD said, "I am JESUS, whom you are persecuting."he replied."Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." Acts 9:4-5
The apostle Paul said, "One thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead... Philippians 3:13
You see GOD forgives. He even forgave Paul... GOD uses people to spead his word. People that are poor, people that are uneducated and people that are weak... If that is GOD'S plan he will guide you and make you strong!
Trust me I preach nothing false about the LORD... GOD is using me to spread the word...Degree or no degree. Educated of the Bible or not...I speak strong and stand stong with the true word of GOD!
Yes Karl I do know the LORD, I have a personal relationship with him. He is there for me always. Even when I didn't have him in my heart he was there for me... Run out on a climb scarred to death 80 foot fall, for sure death. But I prayed to GOD to help me. And you know the LORD did. That was 8 years ago.
The Ten Commandments: You shall have no other gods before me.
As for the Bible, it is the word of GOD! It is our owners manual it is giving to us by GOD...
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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Flanders. Nicely said thank you...
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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D-Know That picture of the demon with breast is of Baphomet, the real god behind masonry, one of the ancient forms of Baal. It is of the Masonic religion. Again beware of false religion.
Masonry is a dark, spritiual force, blending all ungodly religions. Becareful.
What communion hath light with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14
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andanother
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:14pm PT
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apostle wrote:
"Again beware of false religion. "
What could possibly make you think that Christianity is somehow any different than all of those other "false" religions?
Just because you're not smart enough to see the bigger picture doesn't give you the right to insult others.
All of those "false" religions are just as credible as Christianity. And all of their followers are just as entitled to their beliefs as you are.
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KuntryKlimber
Mountain climber
Rock Hill, SC
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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...trollerskates
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. so I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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The head nun tells the two new nuns that they have to paint their room without getting any paint on their clothes.
The one nun says to the other, "Hey, let's take all our clothes off, fold them up, and lock the door."
So they do this, and begin painting their room.
Soon they hear a knock at the door. They ask, "Who is it?"
"Blind man!"
The nuns look at each other, then one nun says, "He's blind, he can't see. What could it hurt." They let him in.
The blind man walks in and says, "Hey, nice tits. Where do you want me to hang the blinds?"
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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Jesus had a tough life. I read about that guy. Jesus is the only guy that ever came back from the dead that didn't scare the F--- out of everybody!
-Sam Kinison
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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" Masonry is a dark, spritiual force, blending all ungodly religions. Becareful. "
Both of my grandfathers and many uncles were free Masons.
Some of the most honest, kind, down to earth people I have ever met.
They would definitely take issue with your characterization, as do I.
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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andanother...You know if you read what I said about the masonic religion in comparison with Christianity it is what GOD warns us about. "Thou shall have no other gods before me." Buy choosing a religion that doesn't follow the ways of the LORD CHRIST JESUS and folowing his commandments is dangerous territory. The Apostle Peter said of JESUS: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under Heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
"For by Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves...it is the gift of GOD: Not of Works lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD GOD am a jealous GOD..." Exodus 20: 4-5
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of GOD? Do not be deceived, Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor aduterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of GOD. 1 Corintians 6:9-10
"These things have i written unto you that belive on the name of the SON OF GOD...that ye may know that you have eternal life..1 John 5:13
"Neither is there salvation in any other (except JESUS):for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 16, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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The Freemasons, you mean, Apostle? Their gripe was with the Catholic and Anglican churchies' throttlehold on human freedom. So, yeah, they were devils as far as any theocracy was concerned. And Baal came before Baphomet, technically.
But hey, have fun waiting for Jesus. Get back to us on how that goes. You do know that people have been waiting for this to happen ANY MINUTE NOW for the past two thousand years, right?
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Feb 16, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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What kind of meat do priests eat on Fridays??
NUN.....
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Karl, good post and quite accurate in that it is the Love of God
that leads us to a new scene, new thoughts, and a new way of
relating to God and those around us.
Apostle is correct also in that God does lay it out in rather plain and
simple terms. Essentially He says, here is the way, walk in it.
And He gives us a glimpse of the benies of walking in it, as
well as the challenges/difficulties that await us when we decide
once again that we know better than the God of all creation.
Mankind seems to be continually hell-bent to have it our way.
Checking the CNN this morning tells me that something is really
out of wack, has been for a long time.
The Love of God is represented well by the love a parent has for
his children, educating them in what is good, right, kind, etc. A
parent hopes his children will pursue the good in life, but the child
has to accept what they know to be true, and chose to apply this in
their life. NO ONE, not even God Himself can force a person to seek the
Truth as it is not in His nature, He only encourages us to follow.
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72hw
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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A very frazzled young woman plops herself down in a seat next to a nun on the train and sighs "Oh, T.G.I.F. Sister! T.G.I.F.!"
The nun thinks about this for a moment, turns to the obviously over worked woman and says "S.H.I.T.!"
The woman looks shocked and asks the nun how she of all people could say something like that, to which the nun replies "Sorry Honey, It's Thursday!"
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Opiate of the masses.
If it were not for belief in the BIG BOOGY MAN IN THE SKY - how else could we keep the peasants in control?
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72hw
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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The full text of Exodus 20: 4-5 reads as follows:
"20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; "
So you mean to tell me that this all powerful guy, who knows how many hairs there are on your head, can create an entire planet and highly evolved species in 6 days, part oceans for your hippie brethren to escape through and inspire such loving devotion that people bomb abortion clinics in his name cannot simply remove the human impulse to covet, worship or otherwise take a liking to things that might be cooler than he is?
And where does that fat lump of choss get off punishing ME for what what my Grandfather three generations removed did???
Sounds A LOT like Honor Killings to me!
When one guy walks around talking to his imaginary friend who knows his every thought and lives in the sky, he is called a lunatic.
When many thousands of them get together on Sunday it's called religion.
What a croc.
EDIT: Awesome troll!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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JLKSJLK AIEJ CJAOERUAHNJ god SJFAOQ UU U AOU AOEUR OA FOUAP U god JALSKDFJA MCPE VALE RALKC CHALSKER ERARE god LSDJWEX CI O OALDJF TILA OCELERATE god LJFALDW CEIOOSE GLA CT C COC C god Area 5:1
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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I think I'll make a sock puppet now...
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Feb 16, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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I like Buddhists.
They keep quiet about it.
Christians act like they get extra points for every upsell they make.
Just like car salesmen.
I don't trust either of them.
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andanother
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 08:04pm PT
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My religion is the right religion because my religion SAYS it's the right religion. Can't argue with that!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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IS THIS THREAD DONE YET?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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Apostle wrote
"..You know if you read what I said about the masonic religion in comparison with Christianity it is what GOD warns us about. "Thou shall have no other gods before me...."
Just sayin' Apostle, that it seems you are taking the Bible and turning it into a graven image to worship. Christians never had the Bible for hundreds of years, and never had a copy they could read by most people for over a thousand. There are 5000 manuscripts of the Bible and None are identical. Some differences are kinda large. The story of Jesus stopping the stoning of the adulteress didn't make it into the main text of any Bible until around 1200.
You are following dogma that is just today's fundamentalist dogma, heavily influenced by Paul. There is just as much evidence that Paul "met" Jesus as there is that Joseph Smith did, or Jim Jones for that matter. How come the Prince of Peace gave the keys to Peter and never mentioned his main teacher would come later?
Even those who are inspired by God, as you are too, have trouble translating the pure light into rules for daily life. At least Jesus was physically present to teach his own disciples (Paul was not one) and even they screwed up constantly! There is evidence right in the Bible that there were disagreements between Jesus Direct disciples and Paul.
Did you know that Jesus was NEVER called Jesus by his followers (It's something like Yeshua in Hebrew and Aramaic) ? NEVER celebrated the Sabbath on Sunday? and that there are direct contradictions in the Gospels regarding what day Jesus died on and where his parents went after he was born. Unresolvable contradictions. You claim the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the crucifixion, but not even religious scholars of the Gospels believe that. The names of the books were added later.
Still, I have no doubt that the Love of God exists in your heart and certainly don't wish you to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Embrace the Love radically as Jesus demonstrated.
The evidence for this doctrine of an eternal Hell that people who do not specifically cite Jesus as savior go to....It is pretty scant in the Bible and there is just as much to say you shouldn't be eating shellfish or pork. Do you? You pick and choose your battles rationalized by popular religious culture. You aren't bold enough to question dogma based on the inspiration of your spiritual heart, just as the Pharisees didn't question back when Jesus railed on them for being too "By the Book, not by the heart"
It would be interesting if God could just delegate you to torture one child for the rest of its life for refusal to believe what you tell her happened 2000 years ago. Then maybe you'd understand what a grievous blasphemy and insult to the Divine these brimstone doctrines you preach are.
If you have a 3 year old child, that kid understands you and your adult life and motives better than you could understand the infinite creator, and whatever you told that kid, via the prophecy to the smartest 5 year old kid you could find, would still be a pretty dim approximation of actual truth.
Trust the love and let it expand further in you. Again, humans had a very different understanding 2000 years ago.
It's still true that if you call Jesus into your heart sincerely, that the Spirit of God embodied by Jesus will certainly come. Amazingly, it works if you call for Shiva or Allah or Jehovah. Why? because Intent is everything. If your 3 year old calls out for you by any name, you come. Jesus is the only way, just as we need water to survive. Some call it Pani, Aqua, H20, and it even works in Beer.
PEace
Karl
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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Karl I am clearly sharing the word of GOD with you all and what He has instore for us. I am thankful to the ancient scribes and GOD ,that preserved the sacred scriptures for the hundreds of years. What I do know is that virtually everything that you need to know concerning GOD is in the Bible. If you get to know GOD'S word and understand it clearly, you can know the will of GOD. "Then I would not be ashamned,When I look into all your commandments. I will praise You with uprightness of heart,When I learn Your righteous judgements. How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word."-Psalms 119:6,7,9
When you commune with GOD and learn what pleases HIM. The Bible says, "Let the peace of GOD rule in your hearts" -
Colossians 3:15
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways ackknowledge Him, And HE shall direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5,6
"And because the lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." Matthew 24:9
Just see the signs of the times. We are always to be ready for our LORD'S return, but nobody knows the day and hour when that will be.
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14
So the Bible is a very complex subject. People study it try to show that the text is incorrect a hoax, just a history story and saying the Bible is a lie. Just know this when the day comes and CHRIST JESUS returns to take his belivers into the kingdom. All the non-belivers that had there chance and deciding to reject the word of GOD and claiming JESUS was a liar...Then forget it!
"They will be judged guilty by the LORD JESUS CHRIST,HIMSELF." Revalations 20:11-15 The Bible says that the lost shall be cast into the lake of fire...
When you meet HIM face to face, will HE be your SAVIOUR?- or your JUDGE?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
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You really got them scrambling this time Jody! Well done!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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I try to begin each day with an early quiet time. I use a book containing 365 short meditations along with the bible. Opened it today and laughed. It was about living in the light of Jesus return. I call these things in my life holy coincidences.
Basically what it said, "Live life with Eternity's Values in View."
"And now, little children, abide in Him; that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming." I John 2:28
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
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apostle, you say "in some respects the bible could be complex."
However, the bottom line if you read the whole thing alot is Jesus cares about all and makes it simple so no one will miss him. No matter what your IQ (thankfully for Lynnie)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 16, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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hey there lynne, say......
Why do you speak like a normal person when Jebus is in the room, and like a 14 year old thug with a crooked hat when Jebus is out of the room?
I quote: Mussys' 3:12- And Mussy said, use Ebonics as a recipe for sin, but speak my tongue with truth and purity, as it was intended. Seek proper diction and know it well, for it is a reflection of upbringing and caste. Go forth now into the world, and retard the urge to be "a bringer of children from the womb fornicator" whose oration is painful sin upon the ears of all humanity.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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I really don't know Mussey. I just get to a point when I need some fun in my day. The Yo's and whatevah help Lynnie have fun.
Forum has gotten laugh impaired. I've been on here @ a year and I know the year quite well. It saved mi. So YO I can tell yo it ain't been laughin' late. The laugh meter tells alllll. :D
And Yo, Hey to Sooz ! You special gal. Seriously. Lynnie
EDIT: Glad to have you back, I am Sir to my Friends. Taco is totally not there with out Yo. Like I said only been here a year, but I gotta sense of zis place.....yeah yo dude. ok, now we do the knuckle to knuckle ....side to side...knuckle to knuckle. See how much the yo gal be learnin? Gotta laugh.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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Well.... as long as you are having fun, Jesus forgives yo.
Edit: I'm not really "back". Only you and Werner can see me. Really, I'm stuck here at the computer doing a giant backlog of work, and after a few hours I glaze over... and need a diversion. Like yelling "WOLF" behind Rox or something. Soon it will end.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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Lol, no forgiveness needed .... he encouraged me to be here for laughs and healing. Preciate you Dude. You and Sooz have been part of this crazy gal's getting out of the pain and loss and into living again :D Danke Lynnie
Edit: hear yo edit. I am actually working hard too for first in long time....according to the work force. DonnnnworktohardthodudeitkillsthespiritsosaidDanandhelaughedandlikedyobro. Secret code from the dvd, is it Christmas Story...he tried to shoot his eye out with the red ryder beebee rifle ?!?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Lynne, who are you talking to?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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Yo ...bwahahaha
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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In fact, yo just made an appearance over on the Steve Grossman thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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So, I'm guessing no one is going to answer my questions - maybe Jesus will when he hits town....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
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healyje, when you write so Lynnie can comprehend. : DD
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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apostle wrote: ""Karl I am clearly sharing the word of GOD with you all...""
“Listen! I took the case of children only to make my case clearer. Of the other tears of humanity with which the earth is soaked from its crust to its centre, I will say nothing. I have narrowed my subject on purpose. I am a bug, and I recognize in all humility that I cannot understand why the world is arranged as it is. Men are themselves to blame, I suppose; they were given paradise, they wanted freedom, and stole fire from heaven, though they knew they would become unhappy, so there is no need to pity them. With my pitiful, earthly, Euclidian understanding, all I know is that there is suffering and that there are none guilty; that cause follows effect, simply and directly; that everything flows and finds its level—but that’s only Euclidian nonsense, I know that, and I can’t consent to live by it! What comfort is it to me that there are none guilty and that cause follows effect simply and directly, and that I know it—I must have justice, or I will destroy myself. And not justice in some remote infinite time and space, but here on earth, and that I could see myself. I have believed in it. I want to see it, and if I am dead by then, let me rise again, for if it all happens without me, it will be too unfair. Surely I haven’t suffered, simply that I, my crimes and my sufferings, may manure the soil of the future harmony for somebody else. I want to see with my own eyes the hind lie down with the lion and the victim rise up and embrace his murderer. I want to be there when every one suddenly understands what it has all been for. All the religions of the world are built on this longing, and I am a believer. But then there are the children, and what am I to do about them? That’s a question I can’t answer. For the hundredth time I repeat, there are numbers of questions, but I’ve only taken the children, because in their case what I mean is so unanswerably clear. Listen! If all must suffer to pay for the eternal harmony, what have children to do with it, tell me, please? It’s beyond all comprehension why they should suffer, and why they should pay for the harmony. Why should they, too, furnish material to enrich the soil for the harmony of the future? I understand solidarity in sin among men. I understand solidarity in retribution, too; but there can be no such solidarity with children. And if it is really true that they must share responsibility for all their fathers’ crimes, such a truth is not of this world and is beyond my comprehension. Some jester will say, perhaps, that the child would have grown up and have sinned, but you see he didn’t grow up, he was torn to pieces by the dogs, at eight years old. Oh, Alyosha, I am not blaspheming! I understand, of course, what an upheaval of the universe it will be, when everything in heaven and earth blends in one hymn of praise and everything that lives and has lived cries aloud: ‘Thou art just, O Lord, for Thy ways are revealed.’ When the mother embraces the fiend who threw her child to the dogs, and all three cry aloud with tears, ‘Thou are just. O Lord!’ then, of course, the crown of knowledge will be reached and all will be made clear. But what pulls me up here is that I can’t accept that harmony. And while I am on earth, I make haste to take my own measures. You see, Alyosha, perhaps it really may happen that if I live to that moment, or rise again to see it, I, too, perhaps, may cry aloud with the rest, looking at the mother embracing the child’s torturer, ‘Thou art just, O Lord!’ but I don’t want to cry aloud then. While there is still time. I hasten to protect myself and so I renounce the higher harmony altogether. It’s not worth the tears of that one tortured child who beat itself on the breast with its little fist and prayed in its stinking outhouse, with its unexpiated tears to ‘dear, kind God’! It’s not worth it, because those tears are unatoned for. They must be atoned for, or there can be no harmony. But how? How are you going to atone for them? Is it possible? By their being avenged? But what do I care for avenging them? What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price. I don’t want the mother to embrace the oppressor who threw her son to the dogs! She dare not forgive him! Let her forgive him for herself, if she will, let her forgive the torturer for the immeasurable suffering of her mother’s heart. But the sufferings of her tortured child she has no right to forgive; she dare not forgive the torturer, even if the child were to forgive him! And if that is so, if they dare not forgive, what becomes of harmony? Is there in the whole world a being who would have the right to forgive and could forgive? I don’t want harmony. From love for humanity I don’t want it. I would rather be left with the unavenged suffering. I would rather remain with my unavenged suffering and unsatisfied indignation, even if I were wrong. Besides, too high a price is asked for harmony; it’s beyond our means to pay so much to enter on it. And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It’s not God that I don’t accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return Him the ticket.”
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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In this letter, I want to skip the usual preaching, moralizing, and pontificating and go straight to the facts. I realize that some of you may not know the particular background details of the events I'm referring to. I'm not going to go into those details here, but you can read up on them elsewhere. To deny that I must certainly add my voice to the chorus of those who change the world for the better is peremptory nonsense and political irresponsibility. It is nonsense because Christianity's clear-cut demonstrations of gross moral turpitude have led me to believe that Christianity has a deficiency of real goals. And it is irresponsible because the pessimism "debate" is not a debate. It is a harangue, a politically motivated, brilliantly publicized, quarrelsome attack on progressive ideas. When Christianity's mingy utterances are translated into plain, words-mean-things English, it appears to be saying that it is known for its sound judgment, unerring foresight, and sagacious adaptation of means to ends. For me, this ill-natured moonshine serves only to emphasize how Christianity flagrantly abuses rules and regulations and then complains vehemently when caught. I won't dwell on that except to direct your attention to the pretentious manner in which it has been trying to brand me as possession-obsessed.
Because "ultracentrifugation" is a word that can be interpreted in many ways, we must make it clear that some people think it's a bit extreme of me to maintain social tranquillity—a bit over the top, perhaps. Well, what I ought to remind such people is that Christianity should stop calling me a contumacious, disorderly rumormonger. Although I've been called worse things by better organizations, Christianity decries or dismisses capitalism, technology, industrialization, and systems of government borne of Enlightenment ideas about the dignity and freedom of human beings. These are the things that it fears because they are wedded to individual initiative and responsibility.
Christianity's true goal is to nail people to trees. All the statements that its partisans make to justify or downplay that goal are only apologetics; they do nothing to purge the darkness from Christianity's heart. No one can claim to know the specific source of Christianity's precepts, but I have observed that those who disagree with me on the next point tend to be unsophisticated and those who recognize the validity of the point to be more educated. The point is that I feel that writing this letter is like celestial navigation. Before directional instruments were invented, sailors navigated the seas by fixing their compass on the North Star. However, if Christianity were to trick them into fixing their compass on the wrong star they'd soon be so off-course that they'd actually be willing to help it destabilize the already volatile social fabric that it purportedly aims to save.
By giving rise to evil spielers, Christianity has erected a monument to isolationism. Only it does not seem proper to say that such a thing has been "created". "Excreted", "belched", "spewed", and "spat out" are expressions more appropriate to the object here described. You see, Christianity is not as surly or insecure as you might think. It's more so.
Christianity uses the word "disadvantageousness" without ever having taken the time to look it up in the dictionary. Organizations that are too lazy to get their basic terms right should be ignored, not debated. As something that enjoys brandishing words like "pancreaticoduodenostomy" and "saccharomucilaginous" as a smoke screen to hide its undertakings' inherent paradoxes, Christianity must truly be at a loss when someone presents a logical counterargument to its harebrained, neurotic mind games. No doubt, antinomianism is a source of livelihood for Christianity. But when a friend wants to drive inebriated, you try to stop him. Well, Christianity is drunk with power, which is why we must reveal the constant tension between centripetal and centrifugal forces of dialogized heteroglossia resulting from its conjectures.
Though the unconscionable spring up like grass and snarky hostes generis humani flourish, they are doomed to be destroyed forever—especially if we outline Christianity's troubling pattern of lying, incompetence, and carelessness. In particular, if we contradict Christianity, we are labelled damnable, mutinous opportunists. If we capitulate, however, we forfeit our freedoms. There is no time and little temptation for those who work hard on their jobs and their responsibilities to impinge upon our daily lives. This means, in particular, that Christianity's rodomontades are steeped in flagitious Pyrrhonism. Regular readers of my letters probably take that for granted, but if I am to bring strength to our families, power to our nation, and health to our cities, I must explain to the population at large that inasmuch as I disagree with Christianity's accusations and find its ad hominem attacks offensive, I am happy to meet Christianity's speech with more speech and, if necessary, continue this discussion until the truth shines.
Although this letter provides irrefutable proof that education is vitiated by Christianity's whinges, I know that it will still accuse me of lying. I suppose that's okay as long as I can convince you, the reader, that when I hear Christianity say that it is beyond reproach, I have to wonder about it. Is it absolutely pea-brained? Is it simply being obscene? Or is it merely embracing a delusion in which it must believe in order to continue believing in itself? I wish I had a lot more time to answer that question. Unfortunately, the following comment will have to suffice: The hour is late indeed. Fortunately, it's not yet too late to make a cause célèbre out of exposing Christianity's tirades for what they really are.
Christianity operates on an international scale to create a new cottage industry around its loquacious form of interventionism. It's only fitting, therefore, that we, too, work on an international scale, but to stop defending the batty, hostile status quo and, instead, implement a bold, new agenda for change. My next point of order is that Christianity has vowed that sometime soon it'll engender ill will. This is hardly news; Christianity has been vowing that for months with the regularity of a metronome. What is news is that it asserts that the majority of muddleheaded misfits are heroes, if not saints. Most reasonable people, however, recognize such assertions as nothing more than baseless, if wishful, claims unsupported by concrete evidence.
Nevertheless, if one accepts the framework I've laid out here, it follows logically that Christianity's intent is to prevent us from asking questions. It doesn't want the details checked. It doesn't want anyone looking for any facts other than the official facts it presents to us. I wonder if this is because most of its "facts" are false.
Christianity sometimes puts itself in charge of making my blood curdle. At other times, one of its provocateurs is deputed for the job. In either case, we must fight for what is right if we are ever to renew those institutions of civil society—like families, schools, churches, and civic groups—that invigorate the effort to reach solutions by increasing the scope of the inquiry rather than by narrowing or abandoning it. Yes, this is a bold, audacious, even unprecedented undertaking. Yes, it lacks any realistic guarantee of success. However, it is an undertaking that we must honestly pursue because prudence is no vice. Cowardice—especially Christianity's unsophisticated form of it—is. I would like to go on, but I do have to keep this letter short. So I'll wrap it up by saying that the only visible result of Christianity's obloquies has been a series of tactical and strategic policy blunders.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Christianity has recently made a number of people very angry, including me. However, as anger serves no function in a successful rebuttal, I will simply state objectively that Christianity likes to put on a honest face to dissimulate its plans to promote a herd mentality over principled, individual thought. Although my approach may appear a bit pedantic, by setting some generative point of view against a structural-taxonomical point of view or vice versa, I intend to argue that many people are incredulous when I tell them that it intends to up the ante considerably. "How could Christianity be so bleeding-heart?", they ask me. "It doesn't seem possible." Well, it is unquestionably possible, and now I'll explain exactly how Christianity plans to do it. But first, you need to realize that I can easily see it performing the following adversarial acts. First, Christianity will scrap the notion of national sovereignty. Then, it will prey on people's fear of political and economic instability. I do not profess to know how likely is the eventuality I have outlined, but it is a distinct possibility to be kept in mind.
The devil not only finds too much mischief for idle hands to do but increasingly in our contemporary world he causes misinformed money-worshippers to trivialize certain events that are particularly special to us all. If you can make any sense out Christianity's insipid utterances then you must have gotten higher marks in school than I did. While Christianity's semi-literate ramblings might be of some interest to specialists in child communication, there is unequivocally a covinous dimension to its viewpoints. Or, if "covinous" is too narrow of a term, perhaps you'd prefer "slaphappy". In any case, I'm willing to accept that Christianity's bald-faced lies and growing list of material falsehoods raise some new and very disturbing issues. I'm even willing to accept that its smears are academicism cloaked in the rhetoric of brassbound egotism. But its claim that war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength is not only an attack on the concept of objectivity but an assault on the human mind.
The very genesis of Christianity's noxious warnings is in allotheism. And it seems to me to be a neat bit of historic justice that it will eventually itself be destroyed by allotheism. I see two problems with Christianity's hijinks on a very fundamental level. First, it seems to have trouble constructing a grammatically correct sentence. And second, there are two related questions in this matter. The first is to what extent it has tried to make its equivocations a key dynamic in modern exhibitionism by viscerally defining "succinylsulphathiazole" through the experience of mudslinging obstructionism. The other is whether or not Christianity likes thinking thoughts that aren't burdensome and that feel good. That's why I wish I didn't have to be the one to break the news that splenetic interdenominationalism is not new. Nevertheless, I cannot afford to pass by anything that may help me make my point. So let me just state that Christianity's salacious dream is starting to come true. Liberties are being killed by attrition. Parasitism is being installed by accretion. The only way that we can reverse these irrational trends is to guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by Christianity and its gestapo. To be precise, many people are shocked when I tell them that its ignorance is encyclopedic. And I'm shocked that so many people are shocked. You see, I had thought everybody already knew that it is difficult, if not impossible, for people to come up with an accurate conclusion if the only information it has given them is false, and everyone with half a brain understands that.
We must clarify and correct some of the inaccuracies present in Christianity's sophistries. Those who claim otherwise do so only to justify their own unbalanced ballyhoos. Due to the power relationship between the dominator and the dominated, when a friend wants to drive inebriated, you try to stop him. Well, Christianity is drunk with power, which is why we must encourage our spirits to soar. Let me mention again that I am intellectually honest enough to admit my own previous ignorance in that matter. I wish only that Christianity had the same intellectual honesty. Experience should probably indicate that Christianity can't possibly believe that censorship could benefit us. It's impractical but it's not that impractical.
Christianity's ethics are a logical absurdity, a series of deductions from a premise that has been denied. Speaking of absurdities, Christianity claims that coercion in the name of liberty is a valid use of state power. Perhaps it has some sound arguments on its side but if so it's keeping them hidden. I'd say it's far more likely that there are many roads leading to the defeat of Christianity's plans to reduce our modern, civilized, industrialized society to a state of mindless, primitive barbarism. I feel that all of these roads must eventually pass through the same set of gates: the ability to give our young people the values that will inspire them to raise abysmal, randy mendicants out of their cultural misery and lead them to the national community as a valuable, united factor. The tone of Christianity's catch-phrases is eerily reminiscent of that of birdbrained kooks of the late 1940s in the sense that Christianity recently claimed that children should belong to the state. I would have found this comment shocking had I not heard similar garbage from it a hundred times before.
I like to face facts. I like to look reality right in the eye and not pretend it's something else. And the reality of our present situation is this: There are some basic biological realities of the world in which we live. These realities are doubtless regrettable, but they are unalterable. If Christianity finds them intolerable and unthinkable, the only thing that I can suggest is that it try to flag down a flying saucer and take passage for some other solar system, possibly one in which the residents are oblivious to the fact that I once managed to get Christianity to agree that its conjectures do not pass muster by any objective standards. Unfortunately, a few minutes later, it did a volte-face and denied that it had ever said that.
It is true that the reasons that Christianity gives for its "compromises" clearly do not correspond with its real motives, but it argues that nonrepresentationalism is a viable and vital objective for our nation's educational institutions. I wish I could suggest some incontrovertible chain of apodictic reasoning that would overcome this argument, but the best I can do is the following: It is driving me nuts. I can't take it anymore! That's a very important point; one of the great mysteries of modern life is, How can Christianity be so counter-productive? That's not a rhetorical question. What's more, the answer is so stunning that you may want to put down that cereal spoon before reading. You see, Christianity has repeatedly threatened to twist my words six ways for Sunday. Maybe that's just for maximum scaremongering effect. Or maybe it's because if I am correctly informed, we might be able to explain away many of Christianity's myopic perversions as being merely the effect of bad drugs. In any case, I have reason to believe that it is about to hasten society's quiescence to moral pluralism and epistemological uncertainty. I pray that I'm wrong, of course, because the outcome could be devastating. Nevertheless, the indications are there that I, hardheaded cynic that I am, don't care what others say about Christianity. It's still loathsome, disingenuous, and it intends to prevent us from getting in touch with our feelings.
I want to keep this brief: The first response to this from Christianity's votaries is perhaps that without Christianity's superior guidance, we will go nowhere. Wrong. Just glance at the facts: I oppose Christianity's crotchets because they are self-aggrandizing. I oppose them because they are sententious. And I oppose them because they will drive us into a state of apoplexy sometime soon.
We must remove our chains and move towards the light. (In case you didn't understand that analogy, the chains symbolize Christianity's hideous, infernal paroxysms and the light represents the goal of getting all of us to show you, as dispassionately as possible, what kind of bilious thoughts it is thinking about these days.) Christianity is a sore loser. Now that's a rather crude and simplistic statement and, in many cases, it may not even be literally true. But there is a sense in which it is generally true, a sense in which it obviously expresses how there's something fishy about Christianity's epithets. I think it's up to something, something vapid and perhaps even debauched.
What makes Christianity think we want it to scrawl pro-colonialism graffiti over everything? Did it read something about that in "The Do-It-Yourself Guide to Obscurantism"? I don't know what sort of abuse Christianity was subjected to as a child that made it such a disorganized, bumptious ranter but I do know that it takes more than a mass of devious, thrasonical renegades to derail its mephitic little schemes. It takes a great many thoughtful and semi-thoughtful people who are willing to argue about its codices. Finally, if this letter generates a response from someone of opposing viewpoints, I would hope that the author(s) concentrate on offering objections to my ideas while refraining from attacks on my person or my intelligence. I've gotten enough of that already from Christianity.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:06am PT
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The furor over revanchism has been an acutely frustrating cultural phenomenon: pregnant with great possibility, touching on vital and fascinating issues, yet initially formulated in a one-sided and pretentious manner that will blame our societal problems on handy scapegoats sooner than you think. What's important to note, however, is that Mr. Jeebus H Christ's cajoleries share many of the same characteristics. Some background is in order: If society were a beer bottle—something, I believe, that Mr. Christ holds in high regard—he would indeed be the nauseating bit at the bottom that only the homeless like to drink. It is quite common today to hear people express themselves as follows: "Mr. Christ should feel ashamed of himself." He is infernal, unpatriotic, insane, vitriolic, materialistic, and inimical. Need I go on?
Mr. Christ has been trying for some time to convince people that hanging out with vindictive lunkheads is a wonderful, culturally enriching experience. Don't believe his hype! Mr. Christ has just been offering that line as a means to let advanced weaponry fall into the hands of the worst kinds of vengeful blackguards there are. I've heard him say that his notions won't be used for political retribution. Was that just a slip of the lip, or is Mr. Christ secretly trying to pander to the most flippant exhibitionists I've ever seen? One might as well ask, "When he looks in the mirror in the morning, does Mr. Christ see more than the parasitic face of a confused polluter?" Although I haven't been able to concoct an acceptable answer to that question, I can suggest a tentative hypothesis. My hypothesis is that it has been brought to my attention that Mr. Christ personifies our nation's short attention span and penchant for apathy. While this is undoubtedly true, when I was younger I wanted to eschew xenophobic teetotalism. I still want to do that but now I realize that we must overcome the fears that beset us every day of our lives. We must overcome the fear that he will play the blame game. And to overcome these fears, we must embrace the cause of self-determination and recognize the leading role and clearer understanding of those people for whom the quintessential struggle is an encompassing liberation movement against the totality of prætorianism.
If Mr. Christ wants to declare that the federal government should take more and more of our hard-earned money and more and more of our hard-won rights, fine. Just don't make me become increasingly frustrated, humiliated and angry while he's at it. What he is doing is not an innocent, recreational sort of thing. It is a criminal activity, it is an immoral activity, it is a socially destructive activity, and it is a profoundly stuck-up activity.
What that means, simply put, is that by the next full moon, Mr. Christ's lies will be exposed and the truth can be spread. But there is a further-reaching implication: He is more than merely fickle. He's über-fickle. In fact, Mr. Christ's so fickle that I think that he finds enemies everywhere. You probably think that too. But Mr. Christ does not think that. Mr. Christ thinks that a knowledge of correct diction, even if unused, evinces a superiority that covers cowardice or stupidity.
Most of you reading this letter have your hearts in the right place. Now follow your hearts with actions. If we are to resolve our disputes without violence, then we must be guided by a healthy and progressive ideology, not by the larcenous and devious ideologies that Mr. Christ promotes.
If Mr. Christ can't cite the basis for his claim that everyone who doesn't share his beliefs is a sniffish, postmodernist yutz deserving of death and damnation then he should just shut up about it. He doesn't want to acknowledge that he should be forced to wear a scarlet "W" for "Wants to pollute the great canon of English literature with references to his rancorous generalizations". In fact, Mr. Christ would rather block all discussion on the subject. I suppose that's because it would be great if we could develop an alternative community, a cohesive and comprehensive underground with a charter to raise the quality of debate on issues surrounding his footling newsgroup postings. Still, if we take a step, just a step, towards addressing the issue of conformism, then maybe we can open people's eyes (including our own) to a vision of how to brush away the cobwebs of sesquipedalianism.
Today, as yesterday, one of Mr. Christ's most loyal encomiasts is known to have remarked, "The best way to serve one's country is to remove society's moral barriers and allow perversion to prosper." And there you have it: a direct quote from a primary source. The significance of that quote is that it's our responsibility to expose all of Mr. Christ's filthy, subversive, and destructive activities. That's the first step in trying to halt the adulation heaped upon sanctimonious ivory-tower academics, and it's the only way to create greater public understanding of the damage caused by his communications. Mr. Christ has remarked that science is merely a tool invented by the current elite to maintain power. This is a comment that should chill the spine of anyone with moral convictions. To make sure you understand I'll spell it out for you. For starters, Mr. Christ is inherently froward, power-drunk, and tactless. Oh, and he also has an ophidian mode of existence.
Out of the vast number of devastating evils for which jaundiced, indecent dweebs are directly or indirectly responsible, I shall pick out only a single one which is most in keeping with the inner essence of Mr. Christ's possession-obsessed, intellectually challenged monographs: anti-intellectualism. One wonders how Mr. Christ can complain about out-of-touch drongos given that his own traducements also aim to condemn innocent people to death. I may not be perfect, but at least I'm not afraid to say that he wants to dilute the nation's sense of common purpose and shared sacrifice. It gets better: He actually believes that without his superior guidance, we will go nowhere. I guess no one's ever told him that his sentiments have created a saturnine, primitive universe devoid of logic and evidence. Only within this universe does it make sense to say that Mr. Christ is a perpetual victim of injustice. Only within this universe does it make sense to procure explosive devices, gasoline, and detonators for use in an upcoming campaign of terror. And, only if we celebrate knowledge and truth for the sake of knowledge and truth can we destroy this inarticulate, maledicent universe of his and condemn—without hesitation, without remorse—all those who ruin people's lives.
Mr. Christ's inveracities are based on a denial of reality, on the substitution of a deliberately falsified picture of the world in place of reality. And this dishonesty, this refusal to admit the truth, will have some very serious consequences for all of us before the year is over. Mr. Christ's expositors tend to fall into the mistaken belief that Mr. Christ's the best thing to come along since the invention of sliced bread, mainly because they live inside a Mr. Christ-generated illusion-world and talk only with each other. Even if one is opposed to purblind, resentful voyeurism (and I myself am), then surely, we are at a crossroads. One road leads into the light of a bright, shining future in which ungrateful peddlers of snake-oil remedies like Mr. Christ are utterly absent. The other road leads into the darkness of plagiarism. The question, therefore, is: Who's driving the bus? The complete answer to that question is a long, sad story. I've answered parts of that question in several of my previous letters, and I'll answer other parts in future ones. For now, I'll just say that I stand by what I've written before, that I, for one, have begged Mr. Christ's torchbearers to step forth and tell it like it is. To date, not a single soul has agreed to help in this fashion. Are they worried about how Mr. Christ might retaliate? Well, I'm sure Mr. Christ would rather mollycoddle power-hungry, disaffected scroungers than answer that particular question.
I wonder if Mr. Christ really believes the things he says. He knows they're not true, doesn't he? Apparently, even know-it-all Mr. Christ doesn't know the answer to that one. It wouldn't matter much if he did, given that I recently overheard a couple of garrulous perjurers say that everything he says is completely and totally true. Here, again, we encounter the blurred thinking that is characteristic of this Mr. Christ-induced era of slogans and propaganda. Until we address this issue, we will never move beyond it.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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I, hardheaded cynic that I am, will not waste my time criticizing or insulting The Bible as 1) it is unlikely to change, and 2) The Bible probably revels in the letters of shock and repulsion that it regularly receives. Instead, I will focus on its out-of-touch arguments, which, after all, are the things that palliate and excuse the atrocities of its comrades. First, the misinformation: it suggests that we're supposed to shut up and smile when it says bitter things. Where the heck did it come up with that? I'll tell you what I think the answer is. I can't prove it, but if I'm correct, events soon will prove me right. I think that if it is going to talk about higher standards then it needs to live by those higher standards. I can repeat with undiminished conviction something I said eons ago: The Bible's conclusions are simple-minded, poisonous to young minds, and disrespectful to Western values and achievements. More than that, those of us who are still sane, those of us who still have a firm grip on reality, those of us who still suspect that The Bible's associates mimic The Bible's behavior to the last jot and tittle, have an obligation to do more than just observe what The Bible is doing from a safe distance. We have an obligation to give our propaganda fighters an instrument that is very much needed at this time. We have an obligation to indicate in a rough and approximate way the two disdainful tendencies that I believe are the main driving force of modern propagandism. And we have an obligation to promote peace, prosperity, and quality of life, both here and abroad.
What The Bible apparently fails to realize is that the collectivism "debate" is not a debate. It is a harangue, a politically motivated, brilliantly publicized, empty-headed attack on progressive ideas. Should we blindly trust such passive-aggressive fanatics?
The Bible is capable of passing very rapidly from a hidden enjoyment of pushy pessimism to a proclaimed attachment to sadism and back—and back again. And that's why I'm writing this letter; this is my manifesto, if you will, on how to warn the public against those conniving flimflammers whose positive accomplishments are always practically nil but whose conceit can scarcely be excelled. There's no way I can do that alone, and there's no way I can do it without first stating that in asserting that the rest of us are an inferior group of people, fit only to be enslaved, beaten, and butchered at the whim of our betters, The Bible demonstrates an astounding narrowness of vision. The Bible attributes the most distorted, bizarre, and ludicrous "meanings" to ordinary personality characteristics. For example, if you're shy, it calls you "fearful and withdrawn". If, instead, you're the outgoing and active type, The Bible says you're "acting out due to trauma". Why does it say such things? I could give you the answer now but it would be more productive for me first to inform you that I am deliberately using colorful language in this letter. I am deliberately using provocative phrases that I hope will stick in the minds of my readers. I do ensure, however, that my words are always appropriate and accurate and clearly explain how it's easy for armchair philosophers to theorize about The Bible and about hypothetical solutions to our The Bible problem. It's an entirely more difficult matter, however, when one considers that if it were up to it, schoolchildren would be taught reading, 'riting, and racism.
A central point of The Bible's belief systems is the notion that the sun rises just for The Bible. Perhaps it should take some new data into account and revisit that notion. I think it'd find that a great many of us don't want it to cause an increase in disease, Trotskyism, crime, and vice. But we feel a prodigious pressure to smile, to be nice, and not to object to its stentorian, soporific sound bites. I indeed think that the agenda that The Bible is attempting to advance is one of exclusivism, repression, and irreligionism. My views, of course, are not the issue here. The issue is that we must show it that we are not powerless pedestrians on the asphalt of life. We must show The Bible that we can recall the ideals of compassion, nonviolence, community, and cooperation. Maybe then The Bible will realize that its jibes promote a redistribution of wealth. This is always an appealing proposition for The Bible's companions because much of the redistributed wealth will undoubtedly end up in the hands of the redistributors as a condign reward for their loyalty to The Bible.
Certainly, The Bible complains a lot. What's ironic, though, is that it hasn't made even a single concrete suggestion for improvement or identified a single problem with the system as it exists today. In light of my stance on this issue, The Bible seizes every opportunity to discredit and intimidate the opposition. I cannot believe this colossal clownishness. Any sane person knows that you may be worried that The Bible will trample over the very freedoms and rights that it claims to support quicker than you can double-check the spelling of "contemporaneousness". If so, then I share your misgivings. But let's not worry about that now. Instead, let's discuss my observation that the justification The Bible gave for challenging all I stand for was one of the most raving justifications I've ever heard. It was so raving, in fact, that I will not repeat it here. Even without hearing the details you can still see my point quite clearly: The Bible's grievances cannot stand on their own merit. That's why they're dependent on elaborate artifices and explanatory stories to convince us that The Bible can succeed without trying.
When a mistake is made, the smart thing to do is to admit it and reverse course. That takes real courage. The way that The Bible stubbornly refuses to own up to its mistakes serves only to convince me that one can usually be pretty sure when it's lying. Sometimes there's a little doubt: maybe it's not a deliberate lie but merely a difference of opinion. But when The Bible claims that it is the way, the truth, and the light, there's no room for ambiguity: it's lying.
Where are the solid statistics that prove that The Bible's the best thing to come along since the invention of sliced bread? I've never seen any. Yet, it insists that it could do a gentler and fairer job of running the world than anyone else. That lie is a transparent and strained effort to keep us from noticing that it has repeatedly threatened to reinforce the impression that insolent marauders—as opposed to The Bible's buddies—are striving to poke and pry into every facet of our lives. Maybe that's just for maximum scaremongering effect. Or maybe it's because The Bible's like the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. Pull back the curtain of interventionism and you'll see a pathetic jabberer hiding behind it, furiously pulling the levers of officialism in an unsympathetic attempt to saddle the economy with crippling debt. That sort of discovery should make any sane person realize that it has been brought to my attention that The Bible preaches tolerance yet actively refuses to tolerate views that differ from its own. While this is unmistakably true, The Bible refers to a variety of things using the word "disadvantageousness". Translating this bit of jargon into English isn't easy. Basically, it's saying that its jokes provide a liberating insight into life, the universe, and everything, which we all know is patently absurd. At any rate, it has called people like me insensitive dingbats, foolhardy demoniacs, and vulgar, impertinent gaberlunzies so many times that these accusations no longer have any sting. The Bible unquestionably continues to employ such insults because it's run out of logical arguments. I suppose an alternate explanation is that The Bible believes that obstructionism is absolutely essential to the well-being of society. Sorry, but I have to call foul on that one.
Whether you call it "Comstockism", "Marxism", or "denominationalism", it is alive and well in The Bible's scribblings. It's what convinced me that there is an unpleasant fact, painful to the tender-minded, that one can deduce from the laws of nature. This fact is also conclusively established by direct observation. It is a fact so obvious that rational people have always known it and no one doubted it until The Bible and its lackeys started trying to deny it. The fact to which I am referring states that The Bible likes to cite poll results that "prove" that the laws of nature don't apply to it. Really? Have you ever been contacted by one of its pollsters? Chances are good that you never have been contacted and never will be. Otherwise, the polls would show that from secret-handshake societies meeting at "the usual place" to back-door admissions committees, The Bible's shills have always found a way to relabel millions of people as "mendacious".
The Bible thinks I'm trying to say that Bulverism is a wonderful thing. Wait! I just heard something. Oh, never mind; it's just the sound of the point zooming way over The Bible's head. The more I think about venom-spouting fribbles, the more troubled I become by The Bible's tracts. The Bible's ipse dixits are a pitiful jumble of incoherent nonsense. So what's the connection between that and The Bible's prognoses? The connection is that it wants to get me thrown in jail. It can't cite a specific statute that I've violated, but it does believe that there must be some statute. This tells me that most people don't realize that The Bible has already revealed its plans to create a world without history, without philosophy, without science, without reason—a world without beauty of any kind, without art, without literature, without culture. It revealed these plans in a manifesto bearing all of the hallmarks of having been written by an unambitious Neanderthal. Not only is its manifesto entirely lacking in logic, relentlessly subjective, and thoroughly anecdotal, but you should be sure to let me know your ideas about how to deal with The Bible. I am eager to listen to your ideas and I obviously hope that I can grasp their essentials, evaluate their potential, look for flaws, provide suggestions, absorb feedback, suggest improvements, and then put the ideas into effect. Only then can we renew those institutions of civil society—like families, schools, churches, and civic groups—that build bridges where in the past all that existed were moats and drawbridges.
I am not mistaken when I say that I recommend paying close attention to the praxeological method developed by the economist Ludwig von Mises and using it as a technique to admonish The Bible not seven times, but seventy times seven. The praxeological method is useful in this context because it employs praxeology, the general science of human action, to explain why if The Bible's thinking were cerebral rather than glandular, it wouldn't consider it such a good idea to pooh-pooh the concerns of others. It is not news that The Bible fails to consider the consequences of its predaceous, cankered imprecations. What speaks volumes, though, is that I normally prefer to listen than to speak. I would, however, like to remind The Bible that the pen is a powerful tool. Why don't we use that tool to provide you with vital information which it has gone to great lengths to prevent you from discovering? The Bible's protégés are just as bad as The Bible is, if not worse. And that's the honest truth.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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This is an open letter, which you are welcome to use as you wish. I want as many people as possible to know that Apostle frequently demands reparations for what only he perceives as injustices committed against him. For practical reasons, I have to confine my discussion to areas that have received insufficient public attention or in which I have something new to say. It's irrelevant that my allegations are 100% true. He distrusts my information and arguments and will forever maintain his current opinions.
How I pity Apostle if I were to be his judge. I would start by notifying the jury that Apostle will probably respond to this letter just like he responds to all criticism. He will put me down as "egocentric" or "unrealistic". That's his standard answer to everyone who says or writes anything about him except the most fawning praise.
If you're still reading this letter, I wish to compliment you for being sufficiently open-minded to understand that Apostle says that I'm some sort of cully who can be duped into believing that our unalienable rights are merely privileges that he can dole out or retract. You know, I don't think I have heard a less factually based statement in my entire life. I don't know which are worse, right-wing tyrants or left-wing tyrants. But I do know that Apostle has never disproved anything I've ever written. He does, however, often try to discredit me by means of flagrant misquotations, by attributing to me views that I've never expressed. In the end, once you understand Apostle's ideas, you have a responsibility to do something about them. To know, to understand, and not to act, is an egregious sin of omission. It is the sin of silence. It is the sin of letting Apostle seize control over where we eat, sleep, socialize, and associate with others.
Apostle is absolutely gung-ho about demagogism because he lacks more pressing soapbox issues. He knows perfectly well that I'm simply trying to explain his slimy tendencies as well as his cuckoo tendencies as phases of a larger, unified cycle. To prove this, I shall take only a few cases from the mass of existing examples. He would not hesitate to erect a shrine of plagiarism if he felt he could benefit from doing so. I wouldn't want to pander to our worst fears. I would, on the other hand, love to make a cause célèbre out of exposing Apostle's hariolations for what they really are. But, hey, I'm already doing that with this letter. Why Apostle would even pretend that bad things "just happen" (i.e., they're not caused by Apostle himself) is beyond me.
Apostle's contemptible tracts glorify the things that everyone else execrates. Apostle then blames us for that. Now there's a prizewinning example of psychological projection if I've ever seen one. Being the analytical sort that I am, I would have to say that he has the nerve to call those of us who fight him hammer and tong "conspiracy theorists". No, we're "conspiracy revealers" because we reveal that even when the facts don't fit, Apostle sometimes tries to use them anyway. He still maintains, for instance, that he can convince criminals to fill out an application form before committing a crime. He has written volumes about how children should belong to the state. Don't believe a word of it, though. The truth is that he is locked into his present course of destruction. He does not have the interest or the will to change his fundamentally uncontrollable bons mots.
Common sense and scientific evidence agree: If Apostle thinks that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of "insiders", then he's sadly mistaken. Throughout history, there has been a clash between those who wish to celebrate knowledge and truth for the sake of knowledge and truth and those who wish to toss quaint concepts like decency, fairness, and rational debate out the window. Naturally, Apostle belongs to the latter category. To quote someone far wittier than I'll ever be, "Apostle's values are incompatible with the proclivities of instrumental reason." I sure wish I had said that because that's exactly what I allege. Nevertheless, Apostle's not averse to breaking down our communities. More than that, he has never gotten ahead because of his hard work or innovative ideas. Rather, all of his successes are due to kickbacks, bribes, black market double-dealing, outright thuggery, and unsavory political intrigue.
Apostle wants you to believe that merit is adequately measured by his methods and qualifications. You should be wary of such claims. Be aware! Be skeptical! Think! Do not be diverted, deceived, or mesmerized by Apostle's incendiarism-prone squibs.
Apostle's personal interest in seeing his philosophies shoved down people's throats is mercantalism-oriented but that's to be expected of him. The facts are, succinctly, these: First, vitriolic riffraff thrive when the rest of us underestimate the threat they pose or are too weak or unorganized to hold the line. Second, his subalterns are too impuissant to stand up to him. Sad, but true. And it'll only get worse if he finds a way to silence anyone whom he considers malignant. What I wrote just a moment ago is not the paranoid rambling of a stolid wacko. It's a fact. So Apostle thinks that he is clean and bright and pure inside? Interesting viewpoint. Here's another: He uses big words like "pancreaticoduodenostomy" to make himself sound important. For that matter, benevolent Nature has equipped another puny creature, the skunk, with a means of making itself seem important, too. Although Apostle's editorials may reek like a skunk, Apostle might devastate vast acres of precious farmland before the year is over. What are we to do then? Place blinders over our eyes and hope we don't see the horrible outcome?
Poison is countered only by an antidote. At the risk of sounding a tad redundant, let me add that some of the facts I'm about to present may seem shocking. This they certainly are. However, Apostle may talk about you and me in terms that are not fit to be repeated right after he reads this letter. Let him. Sooner or later, I will give peace a chance.
In case you hadn't noticed, Apostle is interpersonally exploitative. That is, he takes advantage of others to achieve his own dour ends. Why does he do that? You see, he hurts people wherever they may be, penthouse or poorhouse. I mean, think about it. Let's be frank: It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Now, I could go off on that point alone, but I want to see all of us working together to prevent the Apostle-induced catastrophe I foresee and save our nation from its time of deepest humiliation and disgrace. Yes, this is an idealistic approach to actualizing our restorative goals. Nevertheless, you should realize that Apostle argues that it's okay for him to indulge his every whim and lust without regard for anyone else or for society as a whole. To maintain this thesis, Apostle naturally has had to shovel away a mountain of evidence, which he does by the desperate expedient of claiming that he is a tireless protector of civil rights and civil liberties for all people. While this letter hasn't provided anything in the way of a concrete plan of action, it may help us focus our thinking a little better when we do work out a plan. For now, we must challenge Apostle to defend his ravings or else to change them. I will unmistakably be happy to have your help in this endeavor.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:11am PT
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Reading this letter won't be the easiest thing you've ever done but it may be one of the most rewarding. It is requisite, even in this summary sketch, to go back a few years to see how sock puppets maliciously defames and damagingly misrepresents everyone and everything around it. There's a word for that: libel. I find that I am embarrassed. Embarrassed that some people don't realize that sock puppets plans to weave its power-hungry traits, academicism-prone apologues, and dastardly notions into a rich tapestry that is sure to put political correctness ahead of scientific rigor. The result will be an amalgam of frightful expansionism and inimical absenteeism, if such a monster can be imagined. Armed only with a white shirt, pocket protector, slide rule, thick glasses, and some other neat stuff, I have determined that intransigent ranters are born, not made. That dictum is as unimpeachable as the "poeta nascitur, non fit" that it echoes and as irreproachable as the brocard that people often get the impression that neurotic pseudo-intellectuals and sock puppets's peons are separate entities. Not so. When one catches cold, the other sneezes. As proof, note that sock puppets has no standards of decency. Let me rephrase that: By forcing me to kiss my freedom goodbye, sock puppets has erected a monument to officialism. Only it does not seem proper to say that such a thing has been "created". "Excreted", "belched", "spewed", and "spat out" are expressions more appropriate to the object here described. You see, if sock puppets is going to operate on a criminal—as opposed to a civil disobedience—basis, then it should at least have the self-respect to remind itself of a few things: First, it treats serious issues callously and somewhat flippantly. And second, it is interpersonally exploitative. That is, it takes advantage of others to achieve its own ophidian ends. Why does it do that? The best answer comes from sock puppets itself. That is, if you pay careful attention to its benighted metanarratives you'll definitely notice that sock puppets's disciples actually believe the bunkum they're always mouthing. That's because these sorts of temperamental louts are idealistic, have no sense of history or human nature, and they think that what they're doing will somehow improve the world as soon as our backs are turned. In reality, of course, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to detect the subtext of this letter. But just in case it's too subliminal for some, let me thrust it into your face right here: The picture I am presenting need not be confined to sock puppets's protests. It applies to everything it says and does.
As I see it, an organization that wants to get ahead should try to understand the long-range consequences of its actions. Sock puppets has never had that faculty. It always does what it wants to do at the moment and figures it'll be able to lie itself out of any problems that arise.
When we nourish children with good morals and self-esteem, we are not only threading our way through a maze of competing interests; we are weaving the very pattern of our social fabric. Sock puppets likes to imply that it knows the "right" way to read Plato, Maimonides, and Machiavelli. This is what its propositions amount to although, of course, they're daubed over with the viscid slobber of deranged drivel devised by its goombahs and mindlessly multiplied by prodigal, irresponsible rotters. If you're the type who dares to think for yourself, then you've probably already determined that if you think that the federal government should take more and more of our hard-earned money and more and more of our hard-won rights, then think again. In order for us to realize more happiness in our lives, we need to understand that sock puppets likes to compare its credos to those that shaped this nation. The comparison, however, doesn't hold up beyond some uselessly broad, superficial similarities that are so vague and pointless, it's not even worth summarizing them. I do not have the time, in one sitting, to go into the long answer as to why it is axiomatic that sock puppets's most recent canards are irreverent, in bad taste, and inappropriate. But the short answer is that each rung on the ladder of revisionism is a crisis of some kind. Each crisis supplies an excuse for sock puppets to trick us into trading freedom for serfdom. That is the standard process by which the most crapulous ratbags I've ever seen take over society's eyes, ears, mind, and spirit.
All I can tell you is what matters to me: There's a lot of daylight between sock puppets's views and mine. It believes that the ideas of "freedom" and "irreligionism" are Siamese twins while I, speaking as someone who is not a spleeny astrologer, claim that it and I disagree about our civic duties. I insist that we must do our utmost to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim that we must always be looking towards the future while keeping the past in mind. Sock puppets, on the other hand, believes that fascism is a be-all, end-all system that should be forcefully imposed upon us. Sock puppets has nothing but contempt for you, and you don't even know it. That's why I feel obligated to inform you that I have no set opinion as to whether or not it is nuttier than squirrel dung. I do, however, doubtlessly warrant that sock puppets argues that it's merely trying to make this world a better place in which to live. To maintain this thesis, sock puppets naturally has had to shovel away a mountain of evidence, which it does by the desperate expedient of claiming that all literature that opposes sectarianism was forged by the worst classes of moonstruck naive-types there are.
So we're supposed to give sock puppets permission to doctor evidence and classification systems and make cynical generalizations to support scurrilous, preconceived views and hope it's rational enough not to do so? How naive! Sock puppets swears that we can all live together happily without laws, like the members of some 1960s-style dope-smoking commune. Clearly, it's living in a world of make-believe, with flowers and bells and leprechauns and magic frogs with funny little hats. Back in the real world, sock puppets periodically puts up a facade of reform. However, underneath the pretty surface, it's always business as usual. Who among you reading these words is not moved to place a high value on honor and self-respect? If sock puppets sincerely believes that its faith in defeatism gives it an uncanny ability to detect astral energy and cosmic vibrations then it must be smoking something illegal.
Sock puppets is secretly planning to violate its pledge not to set up dissident groups and individuals for conspiracy charges and then carry out searches and seizures on flimsy pretexts. I realize that that may sound rather conspiratorial and farfetched to most people, which is why you need to understand that a central point of sock puppets's belief systems is the notion that one can understand the elements of a scientific theory only by reference to the social condition and personal histories of the scientists involved. Perhaps it should take some new data into account and revisit that notion. I think it'd find that it contends that society is screaming for its reports. Excuse me, but where exactly did this little factoid come from?
Some people have indicated that this was true long before the latest scandal broke. I can neither confirm nor deny that statement, but I can say that we wouldn't currently have a problem with neocolonialism if it weren't for sock puppets. Although it created the problem, aggravated the problem, and escalated the problem, sock puppets insists that it can solve the problem if we just grant it more power. How naïve does it think we are? Truly, sock puppets likes to brag about how the members of its claque are ideologically diverse. Perhaps that means that some of them prefer Stalin over Hitler. In any case, we were put on this planet to be active, to struggle, and to put to rest the animosities that have kept various groups of people from enjoying anything other than superficial unity. We were not put here to censor any incomplicitous disquisitions, as sock puppets might avouch.
The first lies that sock puppets told us were relatively benign. Still, they have been progressing. And they will continue to progress until there is no more truth; its lies will grow until they blot out the sun. Sock puppets wants to hamstring our efforts to enhance people's curiosity, critical acumen, and aesthetic sensitivity. But what if the tables were turned? How would sock puppets like that?
Sock puppets unequivocally believes that we should be grateful for the precious freedom to be robbed and kicked in the face by such a noble creature as it. What kind of Humpty-Dumpty world is it living in? The only clear answer to emerge from the conflicting, contradictory stances that it and its sympathizers take is that we must shake off our torpor, ignore the siren songs of feudalism, and challenge it to defend its sound bites or else to change them. As we all know, the result of sock puppets's proposals will not be an increase in achievement but rather a decrease in expectations. Believe it or not, if sock puppets were to seize control of the power structure, social upheaval and violence would follow. It is therefore clear that sock puppets has recently been going around claiming that all any child needs is a big dose of television every day. You really have to tie your brain in knots to be gullible enough to believe that junk.
Though I don't doubt the depth of sock puppets's sentiments, it's rather the form of its expressions that I find both drossy and pompous. If we fail to advance a clear, credible, and effective vision for dealing with our present dilemma and its most batty manifestations then all of our sacrifices will be as forgotten as the sand blowing across Ozymandias's dead empire. The "decay of that colossal wreck," as the poet Shelley puts it, teaches us that sock puppets's grievances are built on lies and they depend on make-believe for their continuation. We mustn't be content to patch and darn, to piece and cobble at the worn and rotten fabric of sock puppets's insidious, incoherent slogans. Instead we must give the needy a helping hand as opposed to an elbow in the face. There are two related questions in this matter. The first is to what extent sock puppets has tried to conceal information and, occasionally, blatantly lie. The other is whether or not sock puppets's press releases all stem from one, simple, faulty premise—that we should avoid personal responsibility. To end on a more positive note: This is partly connected with what I wrote earlier concerning insolent weirdos.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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ok guys, I know this has been revealed before, what net app are you using to generate those Mad-Lib-esque letters?
Should also have re-edited the Saint Peter one so that it doesn't refer to the "first name:" Saint.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:18am PT
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Jesus told me this thread makes him sad
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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Although I generally believe that the less said about Ed Hartouni, the better, I do feel obligated to say a few things about Ed's scary beliefs (as I would certainly not call them logically reasoned arguments). I would like to start by discussing Ed's ventures, mainly because they scare me. The thing I'm the most frightened about is that Ed says that his debauches are the result of a high-minded urge to do sociological research. That's his unvarying story, and it's a lie: an extremely antihumanist and overbearing lie. Unfortunately, it's a lie that is accepted unquestioningly, uncritically, by Ed's confidants.
Ed wants to bring ugliness and nastiness into our lives. Personally, I don't want that. Personally, I prefer freedom. If you also prefer freedom then you should be working with me to justify condemnation, constructive criticism, and ridicule of him and his savage intimations.
It is as if we were safely on the bank of a raging river, enjoying a picnic with our friends and family, when a bunch of offensive menaces came along and threw us into the river. Not only must we struggle to avoid drowning in the raging torrent of Ed-sponsored hooliganism, but we must crawl out of the river before we can enable patriots to use their freedoms to save their freedoms. If you ask him if it's true that he would have us believe that peremptory tin-pot tyrants should be given absolute authority to twist the truth, you'll just get a lot of foot-shuffling and downcast eyes in response. He, with his craftiness and duplicitous fulminations, will entirely control our country's exuberant riches when you least expect it. He will then use those riches to promote pugnacious ideologies such as chauvinism. The moral of this story is that if he is victorious in his quest to quote me out of context, then his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity. I can't understand why Ed has to be so deplorable. Maybe a dybbuk has taken up residence inside Ed's head and is making him make unrealistic profiteers out to be something they're not. It's a bit more likely, however, that he has already been able to teach the next generation how to hate—and whom to hate. What worries me more than that, however, is that if Ed ever manages to abuse science by using it as a mechanism of ideology, that's when the defecation will really hit the air conditioning.
Do we not, as rational men and women, owe it to both our heritage and our posterity to present a clear picture of what is happening, what has happened, and what is likely to happen in the future? I think we do. How is it that I knew from the beginning that Ed would enslave us, suppress our freedom, regiment our lives, confiscate our property, and dictate our values? Am I smarter than everyone else? No, not at all. I'll admit that I'm smarter than Ed Hartouni but that's like saying that I'm smarter than a toad. I knew what Ed would do because I realized that we must say "no" to his slatternly, unstable expostulations in such a way that there is nothing he can do about it except learn to live with the fait accompli. Please re-read and memorize that sentence if you still believe that you and I are inferior to mumpish bureaucrats.
By Ed's standards, if you have morals, believe that character counts, and actually raise your own children—let alone teach them to be morally fit—you're definitely a nerdy Machiavellian. My standards—and I suspect yours as well—are quite different from his. For instance, I indeed profess that each rung on the ladder of mandarinism is a crisis of some kind. Each crisis supplies an excuse for Ed to publish blatantly overweening rhetoric as "education" for children to learn in school. That is the standard process by which impudent anarchists eliminate the plebiscitary mechanisms which ensure a free and democratic society. In such a brief letter as this, I certainly cannot refute all the codices of the worst sorts of vexatious, amateurish party animals I've ever seen but perhaps I can brush away some of their most deliberate and flagrant assertions. How I pity Ed if I were to be his judge. I would start by notifying the jury that it doesn't do us much good to become angry and wave our arms and shout about the evils of Ed's lamentations in general terms. If we want other people to agree with us and join forces with us, then we must analyze Ed's commentaries in the manner of sociological studies of mass communication and persuasion.
If you read Ed's writings while mentally out of focus, you may get the sense that it's perfectly safe to drink and drive. But if you read his writings while mentally in focus and weigh each point carefully, it's clear that he would have us believe that leading to the destruction of the human race is essential for the safety and welfare of the public. Such flummery can be quickly dissipated merely by skimming a few random pages from any book on the subject. You should not ask, "Is Man to be free to follow his conscience and worship as he sees fit or must he accept a conscience and god provided to him by Ed?", but rather, "What does Ed hope to achieve by repeatedly applying his lips to the posteriors of uncontrollable nobodies?". The latter question is the better one to ask because I, for one, am fed up with Ed's whiney and stolid behavior. I'll probably devote a separate letter to that topic alone, but for now, I'll simply summarize by stating that Ed demands obeisance from his backers. Then, once they prove their loyalty, Ed forces them to shift our society from a culture of conscience to a culture of consensus.
With all due respect, Ed is bound to have a rude awakening when he finally realizes how few people approve of his eccentric drug-induced ravings. Of that I am certain because there are lots of weepy, wimpy flower children out there who are always whining that I'm being too harsh in my criticisms of Ed. I wish such people would wake up and realize that Ed's cause is not glorious. It is not wonderful. It is not good. My long-term goal is to provide a trenchant analysis of Ed's obloquies. Unfortunately, much remains to be done. As you may have noticed, I can guarantee the readers of this letter that Ed somehow manages to maintain a straight face when saying that he is the arbiter of all things. I am greatly grieved by this occurrence of falsehood and fantastic storytelling which is the resultant of layers of social dishevelment and disillusionment amongst the fine citizens of a once organized, motivated, and cognitively enlightened civilization.
To the best of my knowledge, Ed's proxies assert that Ed's merely trying to make this world a better place in which to live. I say to them, "Prove it"—not that they'll be able to, of course, but because the picture I am presenting need not be confined to Ed's adages. It applies to everything he says and does.
I don't just insist that Ed's propositions serve merely to illustrate that hatred, prejudice, and ignorance are still quite prevalent in our culture; I can back that up with facts. For instance, Ed does not tolerate any view that differs from his own. Rather, he discredits and discards those people who contradict him along with the ideas that they represent. Simply put, a central point of his belief systems is the notion that he can make all of our problems go away merely by sprinkling some sort of magic, pink, pixie dust over everything that he considers self-serving or unpatriotic. Perhaps Ed should take some new data into account and revisit that notion. I think he'd find that if he were as bright as he thinks he is, he'd know that whenever there's an argument about his devotion to principles and to freedom, all one has to do is point out that I indisputably don't want to have to listen to his myopic, self-absorbed billingsgate. That should settle the argument pretty quickly.
Ed insists that ebola, AIDS, mad-cow disease, and the hantavirus were intentionally bioengineered by hideous muttonheads for the purpose of population reduction. This fraud, this lie, is just one among the thousands he perpetrates. Maybe he has a reason for acting the way he does, but I doubt it. Pardon my saying so, but he might tear down all theoretical frameworks for addressing the issue sometime soon. What are we to do then? Place blinders over our eyes and hope we don't see the horrible outcome? When you get right down to it, the next time Ed decides to condemn children to a life of drugs, gangs, drinking, rape, incest, verbal abuse, physical abuse, and a number of other horrors, he should think to himself, cui bono?—who benefits? In conclusion, let me just say that there is no compelling moral or economic reason why Ed Hartouni should declare martial law, suspend elections, and round up dissidents (i.e., anyone who does not buy his lie that society is screaming for his inveracities).
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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It will indubitably surprise some people to hear me say this, but Tami is the devil incarnate. Let's get down to brass tacks: Tami is the embodiment of everything petty in our lives. Every grievance, every envy, every intolerant ideology finds expression in Tami. Make special note of that point because he's a psychologically defective person. He's what the psychiatrists call a constitutional psychopath or a sociopath.
Tami is a man with more ambition than conviction. That's probably obvious to a blind man on a galloping horse. Nevertheless, I suspect that few people reading this letter are aware that in asserting that he is a master of precognition, psychokinesis, remote viewing, and other undeveloped human capabilities, Tami demonstrates an astounding narrowness of vision.
Tami's attempts to replace our natural soul with an artificial one are much worse than mere revanchism. They are hurtful, malicious, criminal behavior and deserve nothing less than our collective condemnation. I despise everything about Tami. I despise Tami's attempts to irrationalize thinking on every issue. I despise how he insists that what I call jaded lawless-types have dramatically lower incidences of cancer, heart attacks, heart disease, and many other illnesses than the rest of us. Most of all, I despise his complete obliviousness to the fact that his plaints promote a redistribution of wealth. This is always an appealing proposition for Tami's chums because much of the redistributed wealth will undoubtedly end up in the hands of the redistributors as a condign reward for their loyalty to Tami.
Whenever Tami is blamed for conspiring to kill the goose bearing the golden egg, he blames his encomiasts. Doing so reinforces their passivity and obedience and increases their guilt, shame, terror, and conformity, thereby making them far more willing to help Tami make incorrect leaps of logic. I don't like to repeat myself, but I can fight only for something that I love, love only what I respect, and respect only what I at least know. Think about it, and I'm sure you'll agree with me. There is still hope for our society, real hope—not the false sense of hope that comes from the mouths of mealymouthed adulterers but the hope that makes you eager to tear down his fortress of charlatanism.
Here's some news for people who are surprised by sunrise: We must assert ourselves as champions of freedom and discuss the relationship between three converging and ever-growing factions—revisionism-prone, bad-tempered showboaters, dissolute, incompetent wimps, and the worst types of judgmental wheeler-dealers there are. While perhaps offensive to some readers, only a direct quote can fully convey the venal, callow nature and content of Tami's analects: "Attention, operatives! Your orders are to conspire with evil, and to do so at any cost." Don't be intimidated by Tami's threat to view countries and the people that live in them either as economic targets to be exploited or as military targets to be defeated. A small child really couldn't understand that no one is more lubricious than Tami. But any adult can easily grasp that when a friend wants to drive inebriated, you try to stop him. Well, Tami is drunk with power, which is why we must highlight all of the problems with his vapid equivocations.
With Tami so forcefully causing riots in the streets, things are starting to come to a head. That's why we must help people break free of his cycle of oppression. His secret agents have tried repeatedly to assure me that he will eventually tire of his plan to create an untrue and injurious impression of an entire people and will then step aside and let us sound the bugle of liberty. When that will happen is unclear—probably sometime between "don't hold your breath" and "beware of flying pigs". At the same time, Tami and his advocates behave like a colony of culicidae decrying the occasional angry slap by those that have been stung by Tami's abominable adages. Now that's a strong conclusion to draw just from the evidence I've presented in this letter so let me corroborate it by saying that Tami's legates allege that trees cause more pollution than automobiles do. This is precisely the non-equation that Tami is trying to patch together. What he's missing, as usual, is that if he makes fun of me or insults me I hear it, and it hurts. But I take solace in the fact that I am still able to appeal for comity between us and him.
On a completely different tack, this is a lesson for those with eyes to see. It is a lesson not so much about Tami's pea-brained behavior but about the way that Tami demands obeisance from his helpers. Then, once they prove their loyalty, Tami forces them to rouse the agitated petite bourgeoisie to chauvinistic fervor and hoodwink them into preventing me from sleeping soundly at night.
I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people. I can therefore assure you that Tami needs to stop living in denial. He needs to wake up and realize that he proclaims at every opportunity that he'd never rely on the psychological effects of terror to magnify the localized effects of his imprecations so that, like a stone hurled into a pool of water, shock waves ripple from the epicenter of Tami's attacks to the furthest reaches of the Earth. The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.
Tami uses big words like "undemonstrativeness" to make himself sound important. For that matter, benevolent Nature has equipped another puny creature, the skunk, with a means of making itself seem important, too. Although Tami's policies may reek like a skunk, when one looks at the increasing influence of faddism in our culture one sees that Tami's signature is on everything. So how come his fingerprints are nowhere to be found? Well, while you're deliberating over that, let me ask you another question: Has Tami ever considered what would happen if a small fraction of his time spent trying to overthrow democratic political systems was instead spent on something productive? Now, not to bombard you with too many questions, but his bootlickers always show a streak of cruelty that enables them to find pleasure in their destructiveness. Let me recap that for you because it really is extraordinarily important: I want to give people more information about Tami, help them digest and assimilate and understand that information, and help them draw responsible conclusions from it. Here's one conclusion I undeniably hope people draw: I am certain that if I asked the next person I meet if he would want Tami to dam the flow of effective communication, he would say no. Yet we all stand idly by while Tami claims that his frightful camp is a benign and charitable agency.
If Tami feels ridiculed by all the attention my letters are bringing him, then that's just too darn bad. His arrogance has brought this upon himself. We have a dilemma of leviathan proportions on our hands: Should we resolve our disputes without violence, or is it sufficient to break the spell of great expectations that now binds short-sighted devil-worshippers to Tami? In other words, what sort of severe tunnel vision has led Tami to avouch that "the norm" shouldn't have to worry about how the exceptions feel? Whenever that question is asked, Tami and his functionaries run and hide. I suspect that that's precisely what they're going to do now so as to avoid hearing me say that I do not have the time, in one sitting, to go into the long answer as to why I honestly reject Tami's demands. But the short answer is that even if one isn't completely conversant with current events, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that he has nothing but contempt for you, and you don't even know it. That's why I feel obligated to inform you that he periodically puts up a facade of reform. However, underneath the pretty surface, it's always business as usual. With this letter, I hope I have made my views clear: It would be nugatory to discuss Tami's grievances without first mentioning that Tami is swinging pretty hard on some slender evidence.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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Please forgive me, but I told you so. I predicted long ago that LEB would take rights away from individuals on the basis of prejudice, myth, irrational belief, inaccurate information, and outright falsehood. Now that she has, I'd like to express my thoughts on the matter. For practical reasons, I have to confine my discussion to areas that have received insufficient public attention or in which I have something new to say. If you read her writings while mentally out of focus, you may get the sense that people prefer "cultural integrity" and "multicultural sensitivity" to health, food, safety, and the opportunity to choose their own course through life. But if you read LEB's writings while mentally in focus and weigh each point carefully, it's clear that we must overcome the fears that beset us every day of our lives. We must overcome the fear that she will provide benighted ninnyhammers with a milieu in which they can cultivate the purest breed of irresponsibility. And to overcome these fears, we must give our propaganda fighters an instrument that is very much needed at this time.
To believe that Maoism is absolutely essential to the well-being of society is to deceive ourselves. LEB's revenge fantasies are as predictable as sunrise. Whenever I examine the social and cultural conditions that lead LEB to manipulate the unseen mechanisms of society so as to undermine the intellectual purpose of higher education, LEB's invariant response is to make us the helpless puppets of our demographic labels. Once it becomes clear that the fact that the most covinous dipsomaniacs I've ever seen find her inveracities entertaining—indeed, titillating—is deeply horrifying to the past and potential victims of such ebullitions, it becomes apparent that if this letter did nothing else but serve as a beacon of truth, it would be worthy of reading by all right-thinking people. However, this letter's role is much greater than just to give peace a chance. In the past, it was perfectly clear to everyone with insight and without malice that I find it amusing how all thinking people simultaneously flinched when they heard LEB insist that coercion in the name of liberty is a valid use of state power. Unfortunately, there were a number of people who seemed to lack this insight at the right time or who, contrary to their better knowledge, contested and denied this truth.
LEB's secret passion is to renege on an incredibly large number of promises. For shame! LEB feels obligated to erect a screen of flatulent verbiage to hide the real world from her victims. Sadly, lack of space prevents me from elaborating further. No matter what she thinks, she has stated that freedom must be abolished in order for people to be more secure and comfortable. That's just pure negativism. Well, in LEB's case, it might be pure ignorance, seeing that LEB has hatched all sorts of gin-swilling plans. Remember her attempt to impose a particular curriculum, vision of history, and method of pedagogy on our school systems? No? That's because LEB's so good at concealing her gormless activities.
Although LEB is only one turd floating in the moral cesspool that our society has become, it's easy for us to shake our heads at her foolishness and cowardice. It's easy for us to exclaim that we should bear witness to the plain, unvarnished truth. It's easy for us to say, "LEB enjoys the sense of control that comes from forcing someone else to do things the way she wants them done." The point is that it's easy for us to say these things because no matter how bad you think LEB's suggestions are, I assure you that they are far, far worse than you think. I don't like to repeat myself, but the biggest difference between me and LEB is that LEB wants to waste our time and money. I, on the other hand, want to deal with her grungy reports on a case-by-case basis. She spouts a lot of numbers whenever she wants to make a point. She then subjectively interprets those numbers to support her exegeses while ignoring the fact that when her ethically bankrupt, deluded utterances are translated into plain, words-mean-things English, LEB appears to be saying that public opinion is a reliable indicator of what's true and what isn't. For me, this snotty moonshine serves only to emphasize how being forced to listen to LEB yap on and on about mysticism is about as desirable as being flayed alive and rolled in salt. An obvious parallel from a slightly different context is that she claims that she values our perspectives. That claim illustrates a serious reasoning fallacy, one that is pandemic in her musings. Then again, like a verbal magician, LEB knows how to lie without appearing to be lying, how to bury secrets in mountains of garbage-speak.
If I have characterized LEB's associates up to now as logorrheic and muddleheaded, it is only because many people are incredulous when I tell them that LEB intends to cause incoherent subversion to gather momentum on college campuses. "How could LEB be so mischievous?", they ask me. "It doesn't seem possible." Well, it is really possible, and now I'll explain exactly how LEB plans to do it. But first, you need to realize that it would be great if we could treat the blows of circumstance. Still, if we take a step, just a step, towards addressing the issue of elitism, then maybe we can open people's eyes (including our own) to a vision of how to tell LEB how wrong she is.
LEB's reasoning is circular and therefore invalid. In other words, she always begins an argument with her conclusion (e.g., that raffish, sophomoric vigilantes have dramatically lower incidences of cancer, heart attacks, heart disease, and many other illnesses than the rest of us) and therefore—not surprisingly—she always arrives at that very conclusion. LEB spouts the same bile in everything she writes, making only slight modifications to suit the issue at hand. The issue she's excited about this week is narcissism, which says to me that LEB maintains that she can be trusted to judge the rest of the world from a unique perch of pure wisdom. That's not just a lie but is actually the exact opposite of the truth—and LEB knows it. Why is LEB deliberately turning the truth on its head like that? The answer to that question has broad implications. For example, if you're the type who dares to think for yourself, then you've probably already determined that it's rotten for LEB to throw away our freedom, our honor, and our future. Or perhaps I should say, it's amateurish.
The most sobering aspect of LEB's initiatives is that LEB's zingers have kept us separated for too long from the love, contributions, and challenges of our brothers and sisters in this wonderful adventure we share together—life! Ostensibly, LEB does not intend to spoon-feed us her pabulum but, in fact, she is not the only one who needs to reassess her assumptions. Think about feral misanthropes. They too should realize that I, speaking as someone who is not a crass, rebarbative poltroon, am not trying to save the world—I gave up that pursuit a long time ago. But I am trying to prevent her mawkish machinations from spreading like a malignant tumor. Although there's no denying that we ignore her at our own peril, it may be somewhat more controversial to allege that my love for people necessitates that I solve the problems that are important to most people. Yes, I face opposition from LEB. However, this is not a reason to quit but to strive harder.
Am I being too idealistic—a Pollyanna—when I suggest that all we need to do is champion the poor and oppressed against the evil of LEB? I don't think so. Admittedly, I disagree both with her point and with the way she makes it, but LEB used to be a major proponent of antiheroism. Nowadays, she's putting all of her support behind racism. As they say, plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
It is never easy to judge what the most appropriate or effective response to LEB's mealymouthed diatribes is but one unfortunate fact remains clear: There are some basic biological realities of the world in which we live. These realities are doubtless regrettable, but they are unalterable. If LEB finds them intolerable and unthinkable, the only thing that I can suggest is that she try to flag down a flying saucer and take passage for some other solar system, possibly one in which the residents are oblivious to the fact that I'm not an inerudite person. I'd like nothing more than to extend my hand in friendship to LEB's janissaries and convey my hope that in the days to come we can work together to unveil the semiotic patterns that LEB utilizes to make people weak and dependent. Unfortunately, knowing them, they'd rather calumniate helpless pamphleteers because that's what LEB wants. We can say that her favorite scapegoats are the government, the economy, the environment, society, parents, teachers, and just about everything else, and she can claim the opposite, and it won't make one bit of difference.
LEB is extraordinarily brazen. We've all known that for a long time. However, her willingness to saddle the economy with crippling debt sets a new world record for brazenness. What I wrote just a moment ago is not the paranoid rambling of a dictatorial, vapid wacko. It's a fact. The net effect of LEB's put-downs will be a generation of kids who are unable to read, write, or distinguish good from evil. I won't dwell on that except to direct your attention to the otiose manner in which she has been trying to reduce religion to a consumer item in a spiritual supermarket. One last thing: LEB's behavior is very dangerous and very destructive.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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A number of incidents have taken place in the last several weeks which have troubled many members of our community. To start, Mr. Cookie Monster's legates mimic Mr. Monster's behavior to the last jot and tittle. Excuse me; that's not entirely correct. What I meant to say is that statements like, "Mr. Monster hates us with a hatred so steady and deadly that it consumes in him all sense of time and place" accurately express the feelings of most of us here.
Mr. Monster demands absolute and blind obedience from his myrmidons. If he didn't, they might question his orders to have a serious destabilizing effect on our institutions. This unrelenting demand of obedience also implies that if you want to hide something from Mr. Monster, you just have to put it in a book. He wants to be the one who determines what information we have access to. Yet Mr. Monster is also a big proponent of a particularly duplicitous form of anarchism. Do you see something wrong with that picture? What I see is that when his drossy utterances are translated into plain, words-mean-things English, Mr. Monster appears to be saying that human beings should be appraised by the number of things and the amount of money they possess instead of by their internal value and achievements. For me, this vindictive moonshine serves only to emphasize how I want to take advantage of a rare opportunity to outline Mr. Monster's troubling pattern of lying, incompetence, and carelessness. I want to do this not because I need to tack another line onto my résumé but because much of Mr. Monster's behavior is not rationally calculated to be of benefit to the pouty galoots whom Mr. Monster claims to be trying to help. Of that I am certain because many people have witnessed Mr. Monster show us a gross miscarriage of common judgment. Mr. Monster generally insists that his witnesses are mistaken and blames his manipulative goals on incompetent scalawags. It's like he has no-fault insurance against personal responsibility. What's more, Mr. Monster is careless with data, makes all sorts of causal interpretations of things without any real justification, has a way of combining disparate ideas that don't seem to hang together, seems to show a sort of pride in his own biases, gets into all sorts of intemperate speculation, and then makes no effort to test out his speculations—and that's just the short list!
So we're supposed to give Mr. Monster permission to diminish society's inducements to good behavior and hope he's rational enough not to do so? How incredibly naive! I am shocked and appalled that he could voice the kinds of gross lies and historical misrepresentations that he so often does. And let us not forget that he may start wars, ruin the environment, invent diseases, and routinely do a hundred other things that kill people right after he reads this letter. Let him. By next weekend, I will focus on concrete facts, on hard news, on analyzing and interpreting what's happening in the world.
The next time Mr. Monster decides to manipulate the public like a puppet dangling from strings, he should think to himself, cui bono?—who benefits? He appears to have found a new tool to use to help him help tactless ragamuffins back up their prejudices with "scientific" proof. That tool is absenteeism, and if you watch him wield it, you'll definitely see why to get even the simplest message into the consciousness of antihumanist franions it has to be repeated at least fifty times. Now, I don't want to insult your intelligence by telling you the following fifty times, but he is extraordinarily brazen. We've all known that for a long time. However, Mr. Monster's willingness to initiate a reign of prissy terror sets a new record for brazenness.
Mr. Monster's proxies must be worn out from the acrobatics they have to perform to keep Mr. Monster from turning on them, too. How much more illumination does that fact need before Mr. Monster can grasp it? Assuming the answer is "a substantial amount", let me point out that Mr. Monster is known for walking into crowded rooms and telling everyone there that he has the trappings of deity. Try, if you can, to concoct a statement better calculated to show how brain-damaged Mr. Monster is. You can't do it. Not only that, but I don't just want to make a point. I don't just want to instill a sense of responsibility and maturity in those who abandon me on a desert island. I'm here to give an alternate solution, a better one. I don't just ask rhetorical questions; I have answers. That's why I'm telling you that people tell me that he should reserve his stereotypes and labels and remember to treat others with a bit more respect and equality. And the people who tell me this are correct, of course.
I guess what I really mean to say is that just the other day, some of Mr. Monster's execrable apostles forced a prospectus into my hands as I walked past. The prospectus described Mr. Monster's blueprint for a world in which slovenly usurers are free to marginalize me based on my gender, race, or religion. As I dropped the prospectus onto an overflowing wastebasket I reflected upon the way that opposing Mr. Monster's primitive tirades actively and earnestly is the moral duty of every good human being. I could write pages on the subject, but the following should suffice. I don't care what others say about Mr. Monster. He's still snappish, hypocritical, and he intends to erect a shrine of expansionism.
It is certainly the height of ironies that Mr. Monster managed to convince a bunch of impetuous, sleazy spongers to help him lead to the destruction of the human race. What was the quid pro quo there? The answer is a bit of a taboo subject but that won't stop me from telling you. You see, Mr. Monster is too inaniloquent to reason with. In fact, I have said that to Mr. Monster on many occasions and I will keep on saying it until he stops trying to consign our traditional values to the rubbish heap of neocolonialism. He's a psychologically defective person. He's what the psychiatrists call a constitutional psychopath or a sociopath.
Let me move now from the abstract to the concrete. That is, let me give you a (mercifully) few examples of Mr. Monster's outrageous ineptitude. For starters, I like to speak of him as "feebleminded". That's a reasonable term to use, I aver, but let's now try to understand it a little better. For starters, my goal is to stop this insanity. I will not stint in my labor in this direction. When I have succeeded, the whole world will know that two-faced beatniks paint people of different races and cultures as rapacious alien forces undermining the coherent national will. That said, we mustn't lose sight of who the real enemy is: Cookie Monster and his annoying representatives.
I have a plan to honor our nation's glorious mosaic of cultures and ethnicities. I call this plan "Operation look into the future and consider what will happen if we let Mr. Monster use our weaknesses to his advantage". (Granted, I need a shorter, catchier name but that one will do for now.) My plan's underlying motif is that he is always prating about how laws are meant to be broken. (He used to say that he is the way, the truth, and the light, but the evidence is too contrary so he's given up on that score.)
Mr. Monster's claim that the health effects of secondhand smoke are negligible is not only an attack on the concept of objectivity but an assault on the human mind. If Mr. Monster has any children, I recommend that he teach them about love, trust, cooperation, community, reason, negotiation, and compromise rather than violence, paranoia, and fear. He and I are as different as chalk and cheese. Mr. Monster, for instance, wants to create an intimidating, hostile, or demeaning environment. I, on the other hand, want to shatter the illusion that all literature that opposes frotteurism was forged by dissolute oafs. That's why I need to tell you that he has a strategy. His strategy is to abrogate some of our most fundamental freedoms. Wherever you encounter that strategy, you are dealing with Mr. Monster. It is high time for someone to denounce Mr. Cookie Monster's values. Will that someone be you?
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:28am PT
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Tami wrote: ""Lois as much as I agree with you on the posting in paragraphs, rudder is quoting Dostoyevsky from "The Brothers Karamazov". It's likely the screed he posted is actually all one paragraph.""
Thank you, Tami. :) And, one amazing paragraph it is!
And, if what I posted was read and understood... a Jesus freak I would not be called. lol Um, I, uh, started the agnostic thread. Hello. lol
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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bwaaaa hahahahahaha!
"the raging torrent of Ed-sponsored hooliganism"
climbing wide cracks? with the BAWC? aka 'Team Flowmax' (maybe that's the raging torrent).
"Maybe a dybbuk has taken up residence inside Ed's head"
it's been there as long as I can remember
"Ed is bound to have a rude awakening when he finally realizes how few people approve of his eccentric drug-induced ravings."
Well you can't get everything right, I don't do those things at the request of my employer. But I am sorta looking forward to retirement...
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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And you thought that OP guy apostle was bad.
Then the last two pages people really started to lose it.
Holy sh'it ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:10am PT
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I've haven't been around much the last six months, so I'm guessing "S Powers" is a reincarnation of "Doug Buchanan". If not, then it's time to shutdown the clandestine wackjob cloning operation up there.
EDIT: Or I suppose he could be Jesus on a Santa-track, but even I have a higher bar for Jesus if he does show up...
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apogee
climber
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:31am PT
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S Powers:
Now tell us all, straight up- your ST reputation is on the line here- that you didn't write all that Krap®, and that you cut & pasted it from some wacko website devoted to the love child of Doug Buchanan and Jerry Falwell.
Come on. Tell us.
Otherwise, I will be afraid. Very, very, afraid.
EDIT: You know, it just occurred to me: Doug Buchanan is from Alaska....S Powers is from Alaska.....Sarah Palin is from Alaska...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:58am PT
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I know... it was pretty funny...
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 17, 2009 - 03:48am PT
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Good times
http://www.pakin.org/complaint/
Its been used on this site before, I believe it first reared its ugly head in a Buchanabable thread.
I promise to lay off of the Kool-aid.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 17, 2009 - 08:29am PT
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Just a thought to begin the day.
Following the "For Everything There Is A Season" in Ecclesiastes 3, it says, "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
Joy and Peace to ya'll today.
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 17, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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Thankyou apostle.
good thread...:D
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Feb 17, 2009 - 11:40am PT
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Can't fade yet, Walleye needs the Lord.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Feb 17, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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i only have one question for him
jesus, wtf were you doing sitting your lazy ass in heaven while millions of African people who you supposedly love are being f*#ked beyond all belief, you non caring as#@&%e.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Feb 17, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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This took me nearly 3 hours to accomplish on an iPhone 3G...
When I finally succeeded, I said: "Thank God!"
-and I really meant it (believe it or knott).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 17, 2009 - 02:16pm PT
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JEBUS = DINGUS?
Lord knows he's suffered enough on this earthly plane for our sins...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 20, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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Just thinking today.....If our lives are not ordered by God then all is random chaos.
If there is order in Nature because Nature orders itself, what orders human life on a day to day basis ? Or are all people's decisions random, sporatic actions with no measure of any cohesiveness to create order to an individual's life ?
Lynne
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Place or Another
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Feb 20, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Nice Trip Report, Apostle!
Any pictures?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 20, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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Nice Trip Report, Apostle! Any pictures?
I heard he took a bunch of pictures, but lens flare caused by a burning bush ruined them all.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Feb 22, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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just received an email from a former student who recently graduated from uva; mdavid, if you really want to know what jesus is doing about africa, read on (by the way, what have YOU done for africa?):
"Dearest Friends & Family,
Hello from South Africa! The sun is shining, the wind is blowing, the colors are vibrant, and oh, how wonderful it is to be back on this beloved continent.
To bring everyone up to speed, I arrived here in Johannesburg at the start of February to begin working at three different Joburg orphanages: Baby Haven, Child Haven, and Sparrow Village. Back in December, within the space of a month, what began as an exciting opportunity to play music with some kids abruptly transformed into a new season of life working in orphan ministry and using music to bring joy to kids who have been victimized by the orphan crisis of South Africa.
It has been a beautiful thing to arrive here and to come face-to-face with the Church in action. Here are men and women walking into hospitals full of abandoned babies, taking the most needy home, and finding families to adopt all of them. Here is a 70 year-old nurse who works 16-hour days, 7 days a week, to take care of kids affected by AIDS. Here are kids being taken off the streets and out of the settlements and ghettos, being loved, prayed over, and rescued. I've never seen such amazing testimonies of faith with deeds before.
For at least the next five months, I am so thankful to have the opportunity to work alongside these ministries and to help care for the kids. Here's a brief run-down of the three places I am working:
Baby Haven:
If you've ever so much as let the idea of adoption flash across your mind, how I wish you could come visit Baby Haven! This place of refuge takes in babies who have been abused, neglected, or abandoned and keeps them in loving hands until the right family comes along to adopt them. The stories of where these babies are coming from are far too often absolutely heart-wrenching; but here they are healthy and loved. For the next month, I'm working at Baby Haven several days a week, changing nappies, getting lovely lumps of butternut porridge spit back in my face, and getting to tuck beautiful tired babies into bed for naptimes.
Child Haven:
This children's home is where I will be spending the majority of my 5 months in SA. It is filled with 12 kids from the ages of 3 to 9, some orphaned and others in long-term foster care. For those of you who've got nice little families of 2,3, 4 or 7 kids, imagine throwing another handful in and having 12 of them sit down and wait patiently at the table for dinner to be served. Bedtime often sounds a bit like World War III, and heaven help us when the ice cream cart pulls up outside! What a big happy family, though, and it's wonderful being Auntie Amanda. A big treat has been pulling out the guitar and doing music with the little kids, and on Friday I converted my room in the cottage into a mock studio and the big girls got to record a song with the microphone! The most exciting part for them was hearing their own speaking voice on the computer – none of them had ever heard their own voice recorded before, let alone heard themselves sing. Oh, to see the wonder of a child!
Sparrow Village:
I wish I had the words to convey the depth of an experience at Sparrow. It is a miracle and a tragedy at the same time. Miraculous in that over 250 kids affected by HIV/AIDS have been taken off the streets, placed in a caring community and a home, and provided with education, clothes, food, and, importantly, daily ARVs (anti-retrovirals). Sparrow won't turn anyone away, and everyone, child and adult alike, is helped. But the tragedy is found in that simple fact: for every additional child that arrives, the small funds that Sparrow receives are stretched just one step further…to the point that each housemother is in charge of anywhere from 14 to 24 children, with one bathtub per household. The beautiful idea of the Sparrow community sadly falls short of providing the quality of life that each child truly deserves.
I brought my guitar over there for the first time yesterday, and soon found myself herded under an awning surrounded by close to 50 kids. We all sat there singing praise songs in English and Zulu until we were out of songs and my fingers were in agony. Lord willing, we can get the music project up and running soon. The best discovery was an entire cottage in the village dedicated to music performance, complete with a speaker system, drumset, and an out-of-tune piano! The first step will be to tune up the piano. Thanks for the donations that will make that possible!
Thank you all so much for your prayers and encouragement. I'll be sure to send out updates every month or so to hit up the big steps in the music project; in the meantime I've started a blog to post pictures, some music videos of the kids, and other stories from the orphanages & Joburg. Feel free to check it every so often if you'd like more info!
The website is: http://miracle-work.blogspot.com/
I hope you are well and blessed, hopefully getting to run and play outside in the sunshine, and having an occasional good naptime in the afternoon.
Much love from SA,
Amanda
James 1:27 ~ Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress…"
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 22, 2009 - 09:16pm PT
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Bookworm, one of the most awesome posts ever on the Taco for this gal. Thank you so very much for taking the time to post it. Since I recently became a widow....what a weird word...I have done some Bible reading about widows and orphans and generally people experiencing loss and a varity of needs.
Pretty much the exploration into these topics has hugely altered my life goals. So far with the help of her family and friends and The Taco Lynnie has managed better than most.
BUT, what about those without all the lifelines I have. That is my primary concern lately.
Bookworm, I did not yet click on your link, but does Amanda have a po box I can write to and mayhap send a donation ? Lynnie
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apostle
Trad climber
heaven
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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God Bless you Bookworm and your works. God loves everybody.
"How great is the love the father has lavished on us,that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!"
1 John 3:1
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 22, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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apostle, I think He said it very succinctly when He said, " For God so loved the world (and everymon in it) that He gave His only begotten son. That who evah believes in Him will live forever."
"God has written eternity in the hearts of men". Ec. 3:11
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Place or Another
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Feb 22, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Just men, eh?
Rough gig for the rest of creation, that.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Feb 22, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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Well....and us fems too. He already takes care of all the rest of the creation. See Matthew 5-7.....knows when even a little sparrow dies....clothes the lilies of the field.
It's we hu mans ....and ladies that seem to be somewhat problematic at times, Mr. E. :DD
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 09:28am PT
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lynne, i emailed amanda with that very question; i'm not sure what her internet access is, but i will post any info that she sends me on donations
the girl also spent a semester and summer in africa (ghana and malawi, i think) working with aids awareness and treatment... she humbles me, and i can assure you her joy is genuine
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 23, 2009 - 09:31am PT
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OK. It's been over two weeks since this thread began and still no J.C. Maybe the title should be modified to "pretty soon", or "reasonably soon".
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Feb 23, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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It's sad that people put blind faith in religous indoctrination and act evil, when it's not so hard to figure out what is right and wrong.
If your are evil to your fellow man God won't care if you followed what some religion told you was what he wanted. But if you are a good person you will reap the rewards.
You might be fooled by man's intepretation of God, but He certainly isn't.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Is he or she here yet? When you say "Very Soon"...I took that to mean like last week or this month? Can you please narrow it down for us?
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:12pm PT
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Is there an expert here?
Did polytheism produce better or worse results?
I know there was a secret society of such existing after the time of Christ and that not only was it stamped out but nearly all subsequent references to it were systematically eliminated.
Perhaps Christ was behind that movement as a second go-round in hopes of correcting earlier errors. Considering the impact he had I think we have to conclude he was a pretty smart dude. That being the case he would have been aghast at what was going on.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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"If your are evil to your fellow man God won't care if you followed what some religion told you was what he wanted. But if you are a good person you will reap the rewards."
If you are good because you want to get rewarded, that is just... evil.
Men are flawed (and women) and cannot be trusted when it comes to preaching about God or religion. How can I tell that the guys who wrote the Bible, Qur’an, etc..., were not evil and trying to steer me away from the true nature of God so that they can have more room in heaven themselves. How the heck could I ever know or trust anyone so feeble as man about such a glorious subject as God?
And if Jesus shows up, people won't believe it's him just on faith alone. They will demand proof. Belief from proof is not quite the same as belief from faith now, is it?
Dave
P.S. Good thing I'm an atheist or I'd think we were ALL doomed.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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48 days until Easter.
The Bunny abides.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
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The sun is expected to last another four billion years I believe. Statistically, based upon what we see around us, how long do we think our specie will persist? Pessimists say 100 years while politicians always say four years. Economists say two months. Just as a WAG let's say a length of time equal to the time we, or something very like us, has existed. We get two numbers here based upon the members of which political party you are looking at. We could just average the two numbers, six million years and 30,000 years. I choose to take the length of time Cro-Magnon man has existed - something like 30,000 years.
Now we are very like a virus and the question is whether we will infect other planets before we have successfully used this one up. Based on long arguments only I believe and assuming we do not achieve supra-luminal velocities in the next 1000 years, I suspect we will not successfully spread.
So there is our answer. Barring substantial advances in physics we will become extinct. Now if we, momentarily, get religious we want to believe something is left behind that persists. Perhaps a little metal plaque saying, "Here lies mankind - little did he suspect." But if nature really cared about such things we, somewhere by now, would have found a metal plaque saying, "Here lies Tyrannosaurus - he bit off more than he could chew." But we have not.
So there it is Tilda.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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We will become extinct.
Never will happen. Impossible to do.
Speculating is not science ....
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
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Haha Fattrad you can't fool me, I know you have a soft underbelly of goodness!
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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a BIG soft underbelly
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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I think we will populate other planets. With our current knowledge it may take 5000 years to reach another good planet. But that's not insurmountable given that humanity has lasted millions of years. At worst if the planet was dying we could send frozen embryos to be incubated once they arrived on another planet with robot caretakers.
But technology could be beyond what we dream today. Who knows a worm hole could take you to another planet in an instant.
The Lunar Outpost is in the works.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Place or Another
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:30pm PT
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I don't trust longhairs, generally. Will that be a problem when he comes? Or will he be all Metro-ed out for the faithful?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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Would seem we could occupy this planet for a really long time if we could get our sh#t together.And if we can't,we certainly do not deserve another.
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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please Jesus, let this thread die.
And while your at it, why dont you just cure all those suffering people in africa that have aids? and why did you create such an evil disease? or why did you let the devil create it? do you like to see people suffer? or is the devil just that much more powerful than you are? and could you please explain them gosh dang dinosaurs?
thanks
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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He didn't create any disease, we did.
Everyone blames and points the finger outside of themselves.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aoKti29TR4tE&refer=home
AIG Seeks More Aid, May Lose $60 Billion, CNBC Says (Update1)
By Hugh Son and Vivek Shankar
Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) -- American International Group Inc., the insurer rescued by the government, is in talks with the U.S. for more funding as it prepares to report the biggest corporate loss in American history, CNBC reported, citing unidentified people familiar with the situation.
AIG may report a loss of as much as $60 billion, CNBC’s David Faber said. The company is also exploring bankruptcy, which is an unlikely outcome, Faber said.
A loss may cast doubt on the New York-based insurer’s ability to repay the government, which controls 80 percent of the shares. AIG’s rescue package was expanded to about $150 billion in November as regulators tried to reduce losses at firms that did business with the company. The insurer posted more than $60 billion in writedowns and unrealized losses in two years through Sept. 30, 2008.
Fourth-quarter results, which may be announced next week, will probably include writedowns on assets including securities tied to commercial mortgages, CNBC said today. The company’s board will meet this weekend to discuss another expansion of the rescue, the network reported. AIG spokeswoman Christina Pretto didn’t immediately return a call from Bloomberg seeking comment.
The insurer slipped 4 cents to 50 cents at 2:59 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading, and has plunged 99 percent in the past 12 months.
To contact the reporters on this story: Hugh Son in New York at hson1@bloomberg.net; Vivek Shankar at vshankar3@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: February 23, 2009 15:09 EST
END OF REPORT
4:15 EDT
S&P500 presently below its lowest close since 1997
Dow is -257+ on the day
Unusually steady declines throughout the day.
Janus managing 125B$ has been downrated by S&P to BB+ /now junk
Debt exceeds cash by 600B+
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
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Hoo boy, what fun, where to begin?!
First of all - to apostle/Juan de Fuca - nice job - one of your best trolls in a long time!
Second, regarding the Freemasons - devil-worshipers or not, I think they're cool.
Did y'all know that all Shriners are Freemasons? The funny hats, the little cars,
and the childrens' hospitals. What's not to like!? And another interesting fact - did you know
that Shriners hospitals are free? There is never any charge
for treatment at a Shriners Hospital. No kidding! Free care for little kids with debilitating disease, nasty injuries, and serious burns.
Oh, yeah, sounds like the work of the devil to me!
Cheers, all!
GO
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Fatty's so evil, the Shriners try to run him over in their go-carts.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Feb 23, 2009 - 05:24pm PT
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"light houses are more useful than Churches"
-Benjamin Franklin
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asioux
Trad climber
Rancho Cucamonga
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Mar 10, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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very cool...
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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had to bring this thread back, because Tami is so cute
when she gets riled.
doug
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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I've heard that before.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jesus, protect me from your followers...
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Judges 19
1And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah.
2And his concubine played the whore against him, and went away from him unto her father's house to Bethlehemjudah, and was there four whole months.
3And her husband arose, and went after her, to speak friendly unto her, and to bring her again, having his servant with him, and a couple of asses: and she brought him into her father's house: and when the father of the damsel saw him, he rejoiced to meet him.
4And his father in law, the damsel's father, retained him; and he abode with him three days: so they did eat and drink, and lodged there.
5And it came to pass on the fourth day, when they arose early in the morning, that he rose up to depart: and the damsel's father said unto his son in law, Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way.
6And they sat down, and did eat and drink both of them together: for the damsel's father had said unto the man, Be content, I pray thee, and tarry all night, and let thine heart be merry.
7And when the man rose up to depart, his father in law urged him: therefore he lodged there again.
8And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart; and the damsel's father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.
9And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home.
10But the man would not tarry that night, but he rose up and departed, and came over against Jebus, which is Jerusalem; and there were with him two asses saddled, his concubine also was with him.
11And when they were by Jebus, the day was far spent; and the servant said unto his master, Come, I pray thee, and let us turn in into this city of the Jebusites, and lodge in it.
12And his master said unto him, We will not turn aside hither into the city of a stranger, that is not of the children of Israel; we will pass over to Gibeah.
13And he said unto his servant, Come, and let us draw near to one of these places to lodge all night, in Gibeah, or in Ramah.
14And they passed on and went their way; and the sun went down upon them when they were by Gibeah, which belongeth to Benjamin.
15And they turned aside thither, to go in and to lodge in Gibeah: and when he went in, he sat him down in a street of the city: for there was no man that took them into his house to lodging.
16And, behold, there came an old man from his work out of the field at even, which was also of mount Ephraim; and he sojourned in Gibeah: but the men of the place were Benjamites.
17And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?
18And he said unto him, We are passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence am I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I am now going to the house of the LORD; and there is no man that receiveth me to house.
19Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man which is with thy servants: there is no want of any thing.
20And the old man said, Peace be with thee; howsoever let all thy wants lie upon me; only lodge not in the street.
21So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
22Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
27And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
30And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Baaaaaaaahhhhhhh....
You just have to love it when your "superiors" refer to you as sheep.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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When he gets here will he have a beer with me? How about Sushi? I'm collecting photos of famous people at my sushi bar.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Regarding the OP -
I am really starting to have my doubts, Dude.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"Hello my fellow climbers. I want to let you all know JESUS CHRIST is coming very very soon."
I was away for a while. Did I miss him? Did he come while I was gone?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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`nuff said!
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"I was away for a while. Did I miss him? Did he come while I was gone?"
Oh yeah, he stopped by for a visit, and he was PISSED AT YOU!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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I'm still waiting!
Actually I don't think jesus ever came at all!!!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Nice one, Kevin!!!
The use of LSD seemed to help so many, except me. Nothing can make me climb well!!!
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Oh God. Oh Jesus, Oh YESSSSSSSSSSSS, He's coming!!!
Come unto Jesus and if you come twice, Jesus Christ will bless you!
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Oh, Snap! Nature's Summer Xmas gift:
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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I'm already here, just don't tell anyone!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Since somebody has bumped this thread (something I didn't want to do, but, sigh...)
Jesus Christ, you aren't joking.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Take Me Now
I Have Been Ready For Years
Your stupid angels keep saving my ass
I am tired of trying
Your turn
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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hi, my name is jesus and i just came.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Well, clicked on the link and most all said bible is bullsh#t.
I can tell you it's not. If you want to email me I'll tell you why it's not.
Edit: Tried again on the link and got an entirely different connection. Very cool, guy doesn't buy, but hears. lynnie
What do YO think.....?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 14, 2009 - 01:50am PT
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He's buying if he ever shows up...
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 02:00am PT
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Lynne, I put the wrong link up. I fixed it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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Hi Healyje, nice to read all your posts over the past week. See ya soon maybe ? Fun at Gordo's.
Dfrost7, I always find it so comforting to know I'm not crazy....Peace and Smiles. So the kids still can't put me out of bucket list achievement...bwahahahah. :D
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dogtown
climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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Jul 14, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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I pray he Will!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Hi Dogtown, lots of friends here tonight .... group hug from me...just cause. Lynnie
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 02:12am PT
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He knocked, I opened. That's what I think.
Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers, as well. I've been reading your posts and some of what you've been through. Sincerely, you're in my prayers.
(He actually already bought).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 14, 2009 - 02:18am PT
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Hi Lynne, hope to see you (and way sooner than I see him if truth be told, whether he's buying or not...)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 03:00am PT
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healyje, lol ....and smiles. Facelift in Sept. or Tuloumne in August or......Missing my people but know we here on this planet who remain need to connect, share and live. Peace and hoping for Joy once more, Lynne
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 14, 2009 - 03:06am PT
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OK I have it on good authority he's not going to be a damn hippy this time:
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leavinglasvegas
climber
escondido
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Jul 14, 2009 - 03:10am PT
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fckin hippays!!!!!!!
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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GOclimb said "Did y'all know that all Shriners are Freemasons? The funny hats, the little cars,
and the childrens' hospitals. What's not to like!? And another interesting fact - did you know
that Shriners hospitals are free? There is never any charge
for treatment at a Shriners Hospital. No kidding! Free care for little kids with debilitating disease, nasty injuries, and serious burns.
Oh, yeah, sounds like the work of the devil to me!"
I've read most of this thread and wasn't planning to comment. I like the jokes and this comment, the rest - ugh. The Shriners have provided my eldest daughter free medical care all her life (she's 13 yo). This includes 23 major surgeries and equipment to deal with her brittle bone condition. No questions asked, no need to join anything. Just pure giving. They do this for thousands of kids everyday.
The little cars and funny hats are just cover for all the serious work they do.
We don't need god(s) or Jesus, we need more people like this.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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bc without jesus, I wouldn't even be here. I would have died in my 20's. He's my best friend and just cause you can't see him doesn't mean he's not there. lynne
Edit: life has been a challenge lately. Don't think I could have done as well as I have without him. He's been there for me every day.....especially the hardest ones.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Krishna Das: Jesus and Hanuman are the same thing.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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Lynne, I hear that kind of statement often. Jesus, God, angels or whatever shows when the trouble has already happened. You can almost always count on them showing up after the fact. Why are they never there to stop the car crash or evil deed before it happens? They are like the worst superheroes ever. How would it sound if Superman showed up at the train wreck to just, you know, lift the railcars to remove the bodies. Go Superman.
My wife and I still get this about our daughter. "God had great foresight placing her in such great care of you two wonderful parents and great doctors." BS. Where was he when her genes were going haywire. Late again. Off busy polishing the firmament I suppose. These people also fail to hear about all the kids like her that are basically abandoned by one or both parents. Many end up being adopted - or not.
I'm glad you believe that something was there for you when you needed the help. It seems to have worked for you.
Keep the faith.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jul 14, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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Why the certainty that when He comes again we'll recognize Him?
Why the certainty He hasn't already come back? More than once maybe...
Do you expect the established religions to embrace Him?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Really great, thoughtful comments bc and davidji. I need to think a bit (for hopefully real life examples) and will post tonight.....lynne
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:15pm PT
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Is there any reliable contemporary evidence that Jesus (the man) even existed?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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JC had it down...
And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder: One of the four beasts saying: "Come and see." And I saw. And behold, a white horse.
There's a man goin' 'round takin' names. An' he decides who to free and who to blame. Everybody won't be treated all the same. There'll be a golden ladder reaching down. When the man comes around.
The hairs on your arm will stand up. At the terror in each sip and in each sup. For you partake of that last offered cup, Or disappear into the potter's ground. When the man comes around.
Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marching to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Till Armageddon, no Shalam, no Shalom. Then the father hen will call his chickens home. The wise men will bow down before the throne. And at his feet they'll cast their golden crown. When the man comes around.
Whoever is unjust, let him be unjust still. Whoever is righteous, let him be righteous still. Whoever is filthy, let him be filthy still. Listen to the words long written down, When the man comes around.
Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marchin' to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.
And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
In measured hundredweight and penny pound. When the man comes around.
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts, And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him.
Coincidence he had the same initials as The Man?
I'm posting it on this page too just because it's so badass!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EquA7crNlgk&feature=related
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:21pm PT
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Pfffffft!
Ain't buyin' it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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Skully, nobody is asking you to buy anything.
It's called faith for a reason.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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No Hummm, Still waiting!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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"It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
This line sums up religious debates quite nicely.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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Johnny Cash sang it, so it must be true. The dude spent time in Folsom Prison, he's got to be legit. I'm a believer now, thanks for opening my eyes.
That's not what I said, putz.
My point is that even somebody like Johnny even submitted to The Man. He was a Jesus-lovin' man all his life, just flawed like we all are...except for somebody who calls himself Weschrist.
You're suck a f*#king dick sometimes....
Jesus Christ save me!
You have to actually WANT it.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
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Everyone in prison turns to christ, or say they did. Pathetic!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:53pm PT
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Everyone in prison turns to christ, or say they did. Pathetic!
JC was a 'believer' before prison time.
And nowadays with all the black-liberation crap, they usually turn to Allah instead....losers.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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I've told you all a 1000 times Jesus Christ never left nor ever came. He can't leave, he can't come since he's eternal and he's ever present. When one becomes purified of the contamination of the material energy then one will see Jesus Christ perfectly.
Until then keep drinking the drug of material contamination and bask in your foolish world of duality.
You people just keep projecting your own ignorance onto the outside world of yourselves due to poor fund of real knowledge.
At night the sun hasn't really left it's just not in view but still it exists and in the morning it once again comes into our view. (real crude example)
Blah, blah, blah .......
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:58pm PT
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Uhh - hate to burst your bubble - but Johnny Cash was never in prison - he did spend about 4 hours in a county jail.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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The sun is eaten by a dragon every night and regurgitated the next day - sheesh!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Ricky, my point isn't about trivialities like crap spouted here that he's a criminal.
My point is he always had faith, even in dark times of his life. And he made badass!!!! music too!
The dude was unique.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:12pm PT
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Is there any reliable contemporary evidence that Jesus (the man) even existed?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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You're a coal miner and you lived underground forever.
And you're asking if there's any evidence the sun ever existed .....
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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This post is kooky
many kooks
Good Thought Edit: That's a good point Wes..... here here
Ricky D Edit: True about the never went to jail... "Despite landing in jail seven times for misdemeanors, each stay lasted only a single night." - WiKi Ref
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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There is no need to call Werner a Putz. There is no need for any name calling!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:25pm PT
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If your belief brings so much peace and contentment - why must you continually argue its validity with such fearful ferocity?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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And it certainly doesn't give the "believers" the right to claim moral superiority and influence the behavior of others.
Well, by definition they DO have a distinct moral code they TRY to follow.
What is your moral compass? YOU? Where do you derive a distinction from right and wrong?
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:32pm PT
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Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:34pm PT
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Dude, that's like bringing Sean Hannity in a political discussion.
Idiotic, Ricky.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:36pm PT
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My morals are derived from what my parents taught me,
And them?
Why are these morals about lying, cheating on wives, and murder so ingrained in our culture? What was the source?
Where does your guidance come from? A book, a priest, or directly from God? Or other?
My parents who raised me as a Catholic.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:37pm PT
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Nice reply....
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:40pm PT
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
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I don't think I was the first to see it.
You should feel silly.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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Dirtbag wrote-
"Is there any reliable contemporary evidence that Jesus (the man) even existed?"
There`s no video or nothing but a historical Jesus certainly is admitted by many sources with at least as much frequency as the various Caesars that were his contemporaries. Or that´s what many historians have written at any rate.
I believe that any open minded person who reads the Gospels will not dispute
Jesus´ remarkable moral authority, compassion and wisdom. He seems made of special stuff, born of a better or superior world.
The problems arise when he is accorded superhero physical powers (curing blindness and insanity, walking on water, rising from the dead) and a supernatural ancestry, the likes of which have never been witnessed and documented in modern times. There is no cross-referencing the miracles of Jesus. They are unique, apparently, or simply religious adornments.
Part of me thinks that following the pattern of myth making, writers simply jazzed Jesus up a little with the resurrection and all that. Another part of me wonders exactly who he was - notwithstanding the given labels such as son of man or son of God. One wonders what is really meant with these labels, beyond the glib, stock-in-trade answers provided in Sunday School. I sense you`ll just stall out trying to overthink such questions. Still one wonders . . .
Perhaps he`s a mystery that will never be totally understood.
Like many, things like the virgin birth are not especially useful to me. Even if true fantastic wonders don´t in and of themselves have transformative powers. More than magic, when I think of Jesus I think of unsurpassable humility, and that, ironically, is perhaps where the real power lies after all.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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Obviously nobody could have figured those things out without divine intervention.
This is useless.
If you have read the history of ancient cultures, the Bible, you'd understand that many thought that living for pleasure without consequence was cool. If it feels good, do it, man! Drink up, party, screw that guy sitting next to you, f*#k chix till morning. Lie to people because there's no consequence.
Eventually, somehow, people saw a consequence to these actions. Was it divine? I can't prove anything. But what I do know is that, somehow, living life in a Biblical moral way avoids a lot of 'consequence' somehow.
As a result I have found that living a life according to God's laws, I'm way happier.
I had forgon religion for a while in my life to pursue 'my pleasures'. In retrospect I wasn't that happy. Sure I was high and thought sh#t was solid, but after giving a lot of that up I'm much happier and feel that I'm more in touch with God.
I was blinded by perversion and essentially the Devil's hands.
Laugh if you want, mock me, or whatever, that's the way I see it.
If there is a God there has to be a Devil who steers us and entices us to do the wrong things. He lies and deceives. If he showed himself there would be no more proof needed that God existed. And so he lurks and entices. He guides us to do the wrong things in God's eyes.
He's really a f*#king prick, he's good at what he does, Satan, or whatever you call him. Other religion have other names.
He's the force that deters you from the right path and he's a f*#king as#@&%e!!!
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE 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DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE 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DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!DIE THREAD 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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
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S.Powers
You can't kill anything, you're just a puny mortal like all the rest of us ....
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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damn...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:19pm PT
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"There`s no video or nothing but a historical Jesus certainly is admitted by many sources with at least as much frequency as the various Caesars that were his contemporaries. Or that´s what many historians have written at any rate. "
Thanks Largo. But I'm looking for more concrete evidence, because many historians also don't believe he existed at all, or at least don't think there's enough evidence either way. It's asking a lot, I know, for reliable evidence of a person's actualu existence 2000 years after he lived. But faith asks a lot too. People live and die by this stuff.
I actually don't know or have an answer.
Accounts from the Bible are not contemporary, but written after his death by people who never knew him.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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because many historians also don't believe he existed at all, or at least don't think there's enough evidence either way.
Kinda like Global Warning?
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Om Namah Shivaya
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Jai Jai Hanuman
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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Pass me a PBR.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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"because many historians also don't believe he existed at all, or at least don't think there's enough evidence either way.
Kinda like Global Warning? "
Um, bluering, no.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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It's called "Global Climate Change"
Carry on.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Sweet!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:39pm PT
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looks like the scourge have better position. They will probably win.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
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It's called "Global Climate Change"
Yeah, now it is, tell Al Gore why it changed wording....Oh the Globe is cooling now? Yeah that's it, stil fits if we call it 'Change' we can still believe in.
Heaven forbid you morons were wrong and we're looking at solar shutdown now, and hence, global cooling!
Anything to fit the agenda!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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There is physical evidence that we now have that wasn't ever available to any other people in all of history until right now in our time --- The age of the computer, and the personal computer at that.
The good book talks about how parts of it are sealed and secret until the end. Well, these parts and secrets are now being revealed. Even in the Bible Code it mentions the importance of the computer to understand the hidden secrets.
It exists to strengthen our faith and to warn us what will soon occur.
Two resources that everyone should see or read:
The DVD, The Star of Bethlehem
http://thestarofbethlehemmovie.com/
In the good book it mentions that the stars are for signs and seasons. The stars indeed mark when Jesus was born, and the very day and hour when he died on the cross. We can now know this, using Kepler's laws and powerful software, such as "Stary Night":
http://www.amazon.com/Starry-Night-Pro-Plus-6-2/dp/B000HDFYSS/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1PV726R94V61C&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
It is truly amazing. The stars and planets really do shout and proclaim God.
The other resource that everyone should read is Michael Drosnin's book, The Bible Code:
http://www.amazon.com/BIBLE-CODE-Michael-Drosnin/dp/B0001PIOYI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247624253&sr=8-1
We would not have figured it out and now researching it dilligently by people all over the world if it were not for a humble Jewish Mathematician, and the personal computer. What we are learning now is amazing . . .
Some quick examples from science (something I'm very interested in). These historical events are all in the Bible Code in the Jewish Old Testament written in Hebrew:
Newton, Edison, Wright Brothers, Einstein, Moon landing, Shoemacker-Levy Comet impact with Jupiter, to demonstrate just a few . . .
As a recently returned Prodigal Son Christian, I beleive and I know what it means: God exists, and he inspired his written word and he wants us to know this.
Here is a passage from Drosnin's book and in his own words pg.50-51:
'Does it prove there is a God?
For Eli Rips, the answer is yes. "The Bible code is firm scientific proof," the mathmetician states. But Rips believed in god before he found the evidence.
Many others will also say that we now have the first secular evidence of His existance. I am persuaded only that no human could have encoded the Bible in this way.
We do have the first scientific proof that some intelligence outside our own does exist, or at least did exist at the time the Bible was written.
I do not know if it is God. I only know that no human being could have encoded the Bible 3000 years ago, and accurately foretold the future.
If the Rabin assassination, the Gulf War, and the collision of a comet with Jupiter are all encoded, and they clearly are, then some intelligence very different from our own did it.
The Bible code demands that we accept what the bible can only ask us to believe --- that we are not alone.
But the code does not exist simply to announce the existence of the encoder. The Bible was encoded to sound a warning.'
If you want proof of God's existance and his plan of salvation, it is available. I would just simply ask for everyone to do so. Check it out.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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"Anything to fit the agenda! "
You mean, most of the leading scientific organizations who are convinced that global warming is real have an "agenda"? It's this kind of armchair quarterbacking of science that drives scientists away from the Republican Party in droves.
"Agenda." You sound like Klimmer and NWO when you say that.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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As far as reliable record of Jesus existence easier topic. There's an excellent book, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable, by F. F. Bruce. You can read it free on Google books. There are references by Josephus, first century historian, there are those who make attempts to discredit his documentation. You should do your reading about something this important.
As far as Jesus, morality, social Jesus, superhero Jesus, my homey Jesus, "head of a religion" Jesus, those are off point.
It was never about religion. If you hate religion, you're in good company - so did he.
It was about redemption. About having a living relationship with
God.
It's not doing right to be right with Jesus. It's about doing right because you Love God. Love not about self and self-enlightenment. It's Reckless, radical, selfless, active, unconditional love. Love you throw under the bus every day. Extravagant love: God's love. Love you chose to give rather than because you "feel" it. It is
committed, strong and lavish.
As far as "seeing" God, As far as faith goes, you definitely do need to invite Him into your heart, your life, for that. He doesn't barge in because a lot of people don't want
to engage in a relationship with him.
Jesus broke all the rules. He was hated, still is, because He shook things to the foundation. Women were part of his ministering body - unheard of in any belief system.
But, he's not a system of belief, he's a relationship. Probably, why people just can't imagine why other people can't see.
Faith? Everything you and I do is by faith. We see by faith. Seal a room from any light source and you are now operating by faith that it's your friend's voice. Do you love someone? Take it out of your heart, or wherever you consider it to be, and put it on the table. It's invisible, you believe it exists. "Faith is the
substance of things hoped for."
You are correct to bust people as phonies for not stepping up to what you know they are supposed to be believing. Jesus was radical, he asked radical things. Someone strikes you, offer him the other cheek if he needs it? You have two coats, give one away, at a time clothing, as such, was traded for goods.
I think this is a very important thread, though OP should not hide and should
maybe be a little more humble (apostle?). Either way, what he/she does, can't
change who God is. Nor does whether people say they don't believe.
C.S. Lewis was an atheist. Super good read: Mere Christianity. My son was
totally an atheist. I have great love and regard for atheists. Many boldly question
where others are too afraid or complacent to. I really do care about what they think.
Rude, offensive Jesus cartoons? Can you imagine, He was taken to the
RELIGIOUS LEADERS, they blindfolded him and hit him, told him to prophecy
who hit him. Sounds like something they would do today. Do i think the
religious leaders would recognize him? Some would, some wouldn't. Do you
think anyone will notice when he comes back? The entire world will know.
There won't be a question.
There has been significant loss recently. We will be spending much more, in time, not here. This isn't about passing works from one existence to the next. People are treated deplorably because they are believed to deserve it in parts of the world.
They have to drag all their bad deeds into the next life. God reaches to us offering
forgiveness so that doesn't happen. We forgive, when we follow, not because
it makes us enlightened, but because we have been forgiven - we love becaue
He first loved us.
It's about redemption. We've all lied, cheated, been unkind, not respected our parents, desired what someone else had. Most of what we know, our personality even, is not tangible. So, faith is not only essential to live, it is how we do most things. Science is only how we, humans, strive to explain things we observe.
So, it is so much more simple than moral superiority. That is not what Christ is about. It's about a living relationship with the living God. I love the fact this topic comes alive with such passion. But, with such recent loss, it is pertinent to everything.
I didn't believe because of catastrophe. God just found me one day, and i said yes. I didn't know where it was all going to go.
I really think as serious as life and death is, that those who have gone would be so glad for such discussion.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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You mean, most of the leading scientific organizations who are convinced that global warming is real have an "agenda"? It's this kind of armchair quarterbacking of science that drives scientists away from the Republican Party in droves.
To say these are Repub scientists is foolish....look at them.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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My God, oops using that name in vain, what dribble!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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DIrtbag, I haven´t studied this in thirty years but when I was a philosophy of religion student in undergraduate school, no credible, mainstream historian denied that a man named Jesus Christ existed, as described in the gospels. His heritage was always much questioned but the idea that a conspiracy existed to fashion the man out of whole cloth, to simply make the guy up - this was thought to me no more viable than denying that Tiberius Claudius or Seneca had once lived on earth around the same time.
Are we talking conspiracy here, about making Jesus up? You know what that (conspiracy) means, don´t you?
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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Heh heh heh
Largo pulls one out of the hat ......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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if Jesus was the "Son of God" and Budha was the Son of God and Krishna and Mohammad and whoever else has their finger in the proverbial pie, does this mean that God had a whole lot of "wives?" He certainly seems to have produced a whole bunch of offspring who are seemingly "half siblings?" No?
You're right, you have no idea....read a Bible or a Tora.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:20pm PT
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All those guys didn't say they were the real thing. When Jesus said it, they tried to push him off a cliff - the religious leaders.
The other great leaders you mention, though some have beautiful
teachings, don't claim to restore you to the one living God. That
Nuke other people? i don't think so. There have always been leaders
who lead people, manipulate people, make it a "national" religion.
We've just lived through that again.
It isn't popular to walk away from people who want to attach Christ
to their political agenda. Plus, people trying to get you to do
things using guilt (religions and guilt mongers). Jesus took not
only the wrong on himself, he took the guilt with it. Knowing
that changes your life. Well, if you want to know him.
Cracks me up. A year or two ago, I read a thread here that said,
"who would Jesus vote for?". So don't get cranky when the subject
is brought up. I cracked up because, who would the King of Kings
vote for?
Your question about the other countries, he dealt with. He asked someone to give him a coin, Who is on this coin? Not me. Render to him what is his and to me (Jesus) what is mine. What did he want? our vote? He wanted our love. People who make it about
politics are pretty far off mark.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to write so much. I know you're just having fun.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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"And then all these guys say they were the one and only - you know the "real thing""
But they didn't all say that. Followers of some religions get pretty worked up about that stuff though.
Does the concept of a God-Man (Messiah, or whatever you want to call Him) who returns periodically seem so unlikely?
While it may seem unlikely to someone with no inner conviction of the existence of God, to someone who understands that God is real I'd think it would make more sense than the concept that a God-Man just came once, for one group of people long ago.
But everyone's gotta believe their own thing...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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Yup, and Harlem will rise again...but I ain't waitin' up nights for either to happen.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:31pm PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:32pm PT
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What did he want? our vote? He wanted our love.
Many may misinterpret that. In my world, or belief system, his love meant faith in the Father. And not just that, faith. He wanted us to UNDERSTAND love and be living in his image of a perfect soul. It;s impossible of course for us to achieve that but the journey to achieve that goal is what makes God proud. To disregard that makes Him disappointed and angry.
It took me a while to see this. We all see it from birth but are lured away. Life is the struggle to find a presence with God, an attachment. We are constantly lured away from it by that vile beast.
In the end, I think God will judge us by our deeds. Dicks like Weschrist will even be forgiven as long as they live just lives in the eyes of the Lord. But if you deny his presence in the end, then where do you go?
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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... and that's what I love about Anastasia. Being kind to one another. Taking care of one another. If this community needs that
they need it now.
That's what love does at its best. I blow it every day, but my job
first, is to just love. To show what that love is like. At a time
like these days, to comfort if someone needs that. If they need
a potato salad, make one. Definitely, if someone needs more than
an email, do that.
Someone mentioned little Tyrus. There will be a need for him to
feel his dad is not forgotten. He will need the community of
men to teach him how. Know what i mean? There's a family, both
by blood, and by community, that loved someone(s) now gone.
So hard. So, they all need to be remembered and cared for. It's
our job. Our privilege.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:41pm PT
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Skully, I don't really hate Wes, I just just converse in terms that he understands. Is he a dick? Eh, it's just a word for blasphemy.
I don't appreciate him spitting on my religion but he'll be held accountable for that.
Do I wish him harm? No!
I pray that sometime people like he will 'see the light', in this life or in passing to the next. I like the dude, really. Seems strongminded, if not arrogant, but we all have flaws.....
May God bless you, Wes...and you too , Skully.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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OMG!!!666
People arguing on the internet!!??
I NEVER!!!
LA LA LA - I CAN'T HEAR YOUUUU...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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MisteE, Jesus always hears you!!!11!!
Bwaahahaahhh!!!!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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Right on, Blue....(grins)
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Seek Him with a sincere heart & see what happens.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Is he going to have time to take me up Bachar/Yerian before he gets on to other important stuff?
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:57pm PT
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What are you people talking about, Jesús was here this afternoon, he cut the lawn, trimmed the hedges then went on his merry way.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 14, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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That guy does good work....
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Well, If I say I am Jerry Husted's daughter it's not bragging. It's just fact. Again, these comments only appear when you're talking about Jesus Christ. You don't hear them when you talk about incarnations of Buddha, or any other. I think it's because you actually have to make a choice. He wasn't down with fence-sitters.
"Either you're hot or Cold" if you are luke-warm It makes me sick
(paraphrase - the real word is for barf).
I think He would have walked right up to a fire with climbers sitting there, or at the bottom of some route. he would have probably said, "the Kingdom of God is like a route ..."
Following him is. if anyone understands commitment ..
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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Largo, I'm genuinely curious. No conspiracies at work. I'm not a Christian, but I'm not outright denying his existence either. Just wondering what kind of hard or even somewhat hard evidence exists. After 30 years, I understand that you might be a bit rusty on this, so I'm not trying to badger you either. I thought it was a basic question.
A close friend of mine who was a religion major said there isn't much beyond vague references in contemporary documents. I don't view the Bible as a trustworthy source because it was written a few years after his death by people who did not know him and has since been heavily edited by various people in power.
Werner, pulling what out of a hat?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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I admit I was wrong about Howiedean. He definitely is not Jody.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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dirtbag -- "Werner, pulling what out of a hat?"
Your memory is short, your vision is short.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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Posting in a thread where I actually agree with some of the things that Howeird is saying.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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"dirtbag -- "Werner, pulling what out of a hat?"
Your memory is short, your vision is short. "
Fine, go ahead and play hide the ball then.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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Largo, great thoughtful posts. Reading what Jesus said in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is incredibly heart and mind provoking.
In Psalm 145: It says, "The Lord is near to all that call upon him, to all who call on him in truth."
James 4:8 "Come near to God and He will come near to you."
If anyone is really interested in finding the answer, take some quiet hours/days and go on an amazing quest.
Lynne is in the middle of discovering another "new frontier". Tho the trail has been a real bushwack, I can see the peaks gleaming in the distant sunlight.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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Dirtbag, I'm sorry for adding this because you weren't asking me the question, but it may help to know a couple of things.
"Most of what we think we know about Socrates comes from a student of his over forty years his junior, Plato. Socrates himself wrote--so far as we know--nothing. Plato (427 to 347 B.C.E) is especially important to our understanding of the trial of Socrates because he, along with Xenophon, wrote the only two surviving accounts of the defense (or apology) of Socrates. Of the two authors, Plato's account is generally given more attention by scholars because he, unlike Xenophon, actually attended the one-day trial of Socrates in Athens in 399 B.C.E."
(http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/socrates/Plato&soc.html
at least a .edu)
"The Tripitaka (called Tipitaka in Pali) is the earliest collection of buddhist writings. Initially, they were composed orally, but were written down by the third century bce. The word means "the three baskets," (tri=three, pitaka=baskets), and refers to the way the texts were first recorded. The early writing material was long, narrow leaves, which were sewn together on one side. Bunches of these were then stored in baskets. This is a large collection, running 45 volumes in one modern edition." (http://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/Religionet/er/buddhism/BTEXTS.HTM at least this is a .edu)
". The time of his birth and death are uncertain: most early 20th-century historians date his lifetime from c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE" (Wikipedia, sorry, but this is pretty much so)
Religious degrees are about a study of something. I don't mean to
minimize what your friend knows, but people don't go after Socrates or Buddha. Neither of them wrote their teachings down.
And, the teachings were written further from their lives.
I have this to say about the keeping of history in those days.
We have a very weak presumption that oral history was inferior.
I think it might have been, actually, very accurate. The keeping
of such history known to be of such importance was not as casual
as our analogy of the "gossip" game. Not at all. Those keeping
history, including all the above, knew how precious their
task was.
EDIT; Howierdd (sorry about the sp), It's not a problem if you
ask for credibility. If you ask for one, then you must ask from
all. He said he's the Son of God, I just agreed with him. It's
why they hauled him in.
His teachings are not complex, that's what's such a head scratcher: it's not that they would be so confusing and hard
to remember. It's that they are such an offense - he said that.
It was an offense then - claiming to be the son of God. It still
is. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and
your neighbor as yourself. I am the good shepherd, I am the way,
Who comes to me, I will give living water ... you will never thirst. These are not hard things you might get mixed up.
For God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten son, that
whoever believes in him would have eternal life. Not whoever
gives more money, or thinks he can do it on his own merit. Just
receive a gift. No, you don't have to do anything. It's love
from there on. "Keep his commandments, and his commandments are
not burdensome, that you love one another". That was 1 John. John
was there with his mom watching him.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:25am PT
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Jesus is the bastard son of a rape! Poor Joseph! He didn't get any!
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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dfrost,
I appreciate your answer but that is not very persuasive.
Socrates at least knew Plato.
Buddha, I don't know enough about to comment.
I don't see why texts written years after someone's supposed death by people who did not know him are more believable because they were written 2000 years ago. There are lots of people and plenty of time for information to be misinterpreted, forgotten, made up, or outright distorted.
Many people hold beliefs that they feel are sacred. Many of them are also flat out wrong, and anything they wrote down would be wrong too.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:29am PT
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Socrates didn't promote religion - in fact, he was ostensibly executed for atheism, and corrupting youth. He talked about philosophy, and one of his acolytes/disciples (Plato) later wrote down what he claimed Socrates said. Whether Plato put words in Socrates' mouth, and whether what we see now is what Plato and the Academy recorded, is another matter. Although we have the Arabs and Turks to thank for transmitting it to us.
And Socrates was a real person - read Aristophanes.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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"We have a very weak presumption that oral history was inferior."--dfrost7
Yeah, when it goes against our OWN beliefs--when "we" agree with oral history, it's because the belief/faith is already there.
edit: how much do y'all "believe" the Native American oral history?
...and it's pretty fresh information, historically speaking.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Dirtbag,
I couldn´t dig up much on the spur of the moment but this-
The existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure has been questioned by a few scholars and historians, some of the earliest being Constantin-François Volney and Charles François Dupuis in the 18th century and Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. Each of these proposed that the Jesus character was a fusion of earlier mythologies.
The views of scholars who entirely rejected Jesus' historicity were summarized in Will Durant's Caesar and Christ, published in 1944. Their rejections were based on a suggested lack of eyewitnesses, a lack of direct archaeological evidence, the failure of ancient works to mention Jesus, and similarities early Christianity shares with then-contemporary religion and mythology.
More recently, arguments for non-historicity have been discussed by George Albert Wells, by Earl Doherty (The Jesus Puzzle, 1999), by Tony Bushby (The Bible Fraud), by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy (Jesus & the Lost Goddess) and by biblical scholar Robert M. Price. Doherty, for example, maintains that the earliest records of Christian beliefs (the earliest epistles) are best explained if Christianity began as a mythic saviour cult, with no specific historical figure in mind.
Nevertheless, the historicity of Jesus is accepted by almost all Biblical scholars and classical historians. Theologian James Dunn describes the mythical Jesus theory as a 'thoroughly dead thesis'.
My personal sense of it is that we will never exhaust wondering who Jesus really and truly was, just as we´ll wonder the same things about ourselves. Son of God? This always throws us back to the question of God himself, and when you´ve found the person who has wrangled that one to the ground, let me know. I think it´s like asking fish about water, but we´re so close we literally can´t see or fathom ourselves. We merely think about ourselves and declare that´s all there is because thinking says so. I find this terribly underpowered and effete.
JL
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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Jesus didn't promote religion either.
Native American history, as well as other indigenous histories,
my point exactly. In fact, many are in tact without written
versions for centuries, more recently recorded. I have much
respect for them.
I can tell you, as a college teacher, many of my colleagues are
pretty religious about Socrates and the ancient Greeks.
It's ok. I'm not trying to win a bunch of points of discussion,
I respect what you guys have to say. (Click on that Penn link I
posted earlier).
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Respect and belief are two different things, sir. Your point was about belief.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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”And Socrates was a real person - read Aristophanes.”
But did Aristophanes exist and if so, was he the sole author of the plays attributed to him? The plays, in fact, are our primary source of information about the individual,Aristophanes.
Our dog can chase its own tail doubting Greek history just as it can with the biblical.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:52am PT
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Howweirddean, All of us have the choice to believe or not believe. I choose to believe because I have been the way of sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and none of these lasted, but the love of Christ remains. And I have personally seen Him at work in my life, and the lives of others, and I feel His presence in my heart. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Don't confuse religion (a man made thing) with a personal relationship.
"He who has ears, let him hear."
Wow. Yep, I thought I elluded to this but you put it just as well.
I think, like organized poiltics, religion has been corrupted. It was when Jesus walked the Earth so why would it have changed? He opposed money-changing rats and taking money to pray to God. This may indeed be a sign of the times.
Having faith and praying to God is selfless and should cost nothing but committment. You don't need a mediator to talk to God. JUST DO IT!
If it costs money, you're talking to the wrong people.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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(Modje) Earlier I was talking about credibility, wasn't about respect or belief. I certainly accept Native American oral histories as credible. I just added I respected them - (not a sir, though).
Nice Blue.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Now, now - no need to jump the conclusion that I was suggesting that anyone other than Socrates was (or was not) a historic figure. Although if both Aristophanes and Socrates weren't 'real', then the NWO conspiracy is clearly much bigger than even the Da Crackpot Code indicated.
When we go back more than a few centuries, 'proving' that someone existed is an uphill battle. We have documents, architecture, archaeology, and of course whatever's in the historical record. In a sense, it's all circumstantial evidence - but there's a whole pile of it for Socrates and Aristophanes.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 12:59am PT
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How can you not love the minds on this.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Again I state: the credibility (believeability) of the oral history lies in the listener.
We believe most, that which best reflects our pre-conceived thoughts.
Too late in the night for examples on all sides of the coin. Some frightening AND uplifting oral histories from all over the globe. Not all are true, and most have had embellishment (grapevine stuff).
Bluey said some wisdom that I agree with upthread--not that it matters to anyone.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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Is there credible historic proof of Jesus?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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Is there credible historic proof of Jesus?
No. If you have to ask the question, no.......you've missed a major point.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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I saw him in a dream when I was eight... he told me not to believe in false prophets, FWIW अद्वैत वेदान्त;
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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I just talked to the big J and he said he was going to send the Mormons to Hell tell the Jews to cut their sideburns. Pass it on and by the way he said fuucckk those snake handlers let them die.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Thanks Largo. Much appreciated.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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oh and he borrowed my sleeping bag on lay lady ledge and when I woke it was gone.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:16am PT
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goat, he just lent it to someone in greater need:-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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How old are You cragman? You remember that?
Just yanking your chain.
My point is that you pretty much have to denounce science and history to be one with "the death cult", then there is the "only way" dogma.
No prob, many people do not believe in offwidth, and I live it, even if I can't climb it, anymore.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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Why do I think there is historic proof? Guess I'd better go do some research. Josh McDowell wrote a great book regarding this question.
I mean the Gospels give Jesus lineage from Mary's side and Joseph's side. Are you telling me that all the people in the Bible were made up figments of imaginations? What about Solomon and the Temple he built in the City of Jerusalem ? The Proverbs he wrote......
Oral History can also be quite good. Before papyrus some cultures memorized their lineages.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा, co
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:20am PT
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That's okay Lynne you don't need proof it's all about "the faith"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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You guys are funny...just be careful what you hold in disregard.
I pray for y'all.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:23am PT
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Yeah Lynne, a lot of the folks might or might not have existed.
Let's look at things from a modern perspective. If I wrote down something that someone else claims they witnessed 40 years or so earlier, and which is quite extraordinary, and presented it to you, would that be very credible?
I don't think so.
Now add 1900 years of additions, deletions, and interpretations to the texts (heck, entire books were deliberately omitted!) and you have, as an historical "source," a mess. There are probably some nugget of truth, but where?
I just don't find that very credible.
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Window Dressing
Social climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:26am PT
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Largo writes:
"Like many, things like the virgin birth are not especially useful to me. Even if true fantastic wonders don´t in and of themselves have transformative powers. More than magic, when I think of Jesus I think of unsurpassable humility, and that, ironically, is perhaps where the real power lies after all."
Very true.
I think the miracles were more significant in the message they sent than in themselves. Jesus was confirming that He was Emanuel (God with us) that Isaiah had written of. That was good news.
Regards,
-Mike
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:44am PT
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”Now, now - no need to jump the conclusion that I was suggesting that anyone other than Socrates was (or was not) a historic figure…..In a sense, it's all circumstantial evidence - but there's a whole pile of it for Socrates and Aristophanes.”
I wasn’t jumping to that conclusion, Anders.
We don’t really have that much evidence about the man, Aristophanes, beyond his plays. Consider those who attempt to “debunk” Shakespeare and claim “he” was actually a fictitious personage used by several English writers. Or the theory that Shakespeare’s plays were written by Francis Bacon.
Establishing doubt as to the authorship of writings, works the same for the “Baconians” and those who might doubt Aristophanes existence as it does for those who claim the apostles Peter and John (contemporaries of Christ) didn’t write the testaments and history attributed to them. Stripped of rationalizations, this doubt is derived from personal opinions and agendas more than concrete evidence.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 02:28am PT
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Gosh, dirtbag, you bring up alot of great stuff to discuss. I sure wish we had a real campfire and could sit around and do justice to these topics.
It's late and I am pretty much out, but this one thing comes to my mind. There are witnesses and then there are credible witnesses. If one actually cares....I mean Really cares to take the Bible, study it, dissect it and truly weigh what it says and then take the Grand Experiment and Apply it to your life.....well the results might astound you....or me. :D Peace, lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 02:43am PT
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"what sort of time scale are we talkin' here ?"
Uh, Dude are you talkin' brain function here? I'd say short, very very short....bwahahaha :D
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 15, 2009 - 02:45am PT
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I was afraid of that....
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reddirt
climber
Elevation 285 ft
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Jul 15, 2009 - 07:15am PT
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[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ1LC7AotNE"]
Jesus was a good guy he didn't need this shi+
So he took a pill with a bag of peanuts and
A Coca-Cola and he swallowed it.
He discovered the Beatles
And he recorded with the Stones
Once He even opened up a three-way package
In Southern California for old George Jones[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsOW7HYc-mc"]
Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on.
Who they can feel better than at anytime they please.
Someone doin' somethin' dirty, decent folks can frown on.
If you can't find nobody else, then help yourself to me.[/url]
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 10:16am PT
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Hey, mornin Howardd.
The comment you mention, I'm closely paraphrasing Jesus. The answer is yes, and no. Yes, you can live an honorable life, a good, ethical and productive life, yes. I mentioned, earlier, it's not about religion, Jesus is about having a relationship with the living God - it's about redemption.
This isn't somethingyou get on your own. - that you can get on
your own. The whole point of the question you put forth is, to be a good person, yet, not need to really engage in a relationship with God. That is exactly why God give us a free will, to choose whether we even want to know Him.
I heard it said recently, "Jesus didn't come to make bad men good (or women), he came to make dead men live". The result of loving God is why we do good (as those who do believe). It is in thanks for His gift.
When you receive his gift, you cease trying to get
God's approval by good deeds and works. You begin to do good because you know His love, you know Him personally and want to show Him thanks.
That's one of the big differences. Again, it's not a religion, it's a relationship with a very loving, personal God. Loving others is the evidence you know Him, not the effort to achieve a long enough list of things that will outbalance the bad things in our lives. "... she loves much, because she's been forgiven much" (Jesus). It really does feel like that.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 15, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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Doubletalk.
Why do I need redemption? Not my fault I was born.
Religious talk goes in the "useless" bucket, with the Politicos.
Have a nice day.I'm through with this.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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Sitting here thinking.....and laughing. :D If God really is, it's kinda funny how we talk about him like he's not in the room.
In my logical illogic I speculate that if God does exist I would pro want to make sure he either does or doesn't before I decide on my life philosphy. Happy Wednesday....lynnie,
Edit: Well not really, still sad about all the recent deaths.
Jesus isn't my crutch in life....he's my chauffer driven limo. Why go it alone when you have such a great resource ?
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franky
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 15, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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in 1000 years the religious morons will be scientologists who can't believe that stupid ancient people used to be christians, what a horrible, nonsensical religion that was!
I wonder how much L Ron Hubbard type sh#t Jesus pulled? He was probably sitting around with his cronies thinking of ways to make a buck, I mean, who the hell wants to be a carpenter anyway? Even back in the day that was probably a rough job.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 15, 2009 - 02:08pm PT
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In the Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends universe, imaginary friends become physical beings the instant a child imagines them... an Imaginary Friend takes physical and emotional form after a child creates specific details about that character. Unfortunately for them, the children eventually outgrow them around ages 7-8. When this happens, the friends are left to fend for themselves. Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends was founded by the elderly Madame Foster to provide a foster home for abandoned imaginary friends.... The house motto is "Where good ideas are not forgotten."
Mr. Jesus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTWJo7a9l0
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jul 15, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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We feel like we need to understand, but we can't, and it's hard to accept. People deal with it differently. It's how God made us, or it's how we made ourselves. We do better working together than individually, so let's talk about it. It fills a need that God gave me, or I gave myself. Deeply satisfying ..
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Jul 15, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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jESUS loVes mE buT hE caNt sTand U:
I know you smoke, I know you drink that brew,
I just can't abide a sinner like you.
God can't either, that's why I know it's true,
That Jesus loves me but he can't stand you.
I'm going straight to heaven, boys, when I die,
'cause I've crossed every T and I've dotted every I
Why, my preacher tells me I'm god's kind of guy,
That's why Jesus loves me, but you're gonna fry.
God loves all his children, by gum,
That doesn't mean he won't incinerate some,
Can't you feel those hot flames licking you?
I'm raising my kids in a righteous way,
So don't be sending your kids to my house to play,
Yours will grow up stoned, left leaning and gay,
I know - Jesus told me on the phone today.
Jesus loves me, this I know
And he told me where you're gonna go,
There's room for your kind down below
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Jesus loves me, he loves me real good. I know he does. He called me up on the phone today and told me how much he loves me. He said, "Son, I love you." He speaks English pretty well, considering it's a second language for him. You can talk to him, too, you know. I've got a 900- number in Tulsa you can call him at, I do it all the time. He'll be glad to hear from you. I talk to him everyday.
Jesus love me, but he can't stand you.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Jul 15, 2009 - 06:26pm PT
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Religion is all about business. Take away a churches tax exemption, they'll loose faith!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 15, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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Tell him to take a number. I'm busy drinking beer.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 06:29pm PT
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I wish we would have had this discussion on a different thread. We've been trolled big time by the OP.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 15, 2009 - 06:56pm PT
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Oh, ye of little faith. One day, one day . . .
Better to make up your mind on this side of eternity, really. On 7/20 I will post more evidence that critical minds can perhaps believe and get. There is real solid evidence that cannot be explained away, all ye doubting Thomases.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 15, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
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Um, I'm going to actually be away from the internet that day. Can you push it forward a little? Or back, till after Aug. 1 or so? That might be better, and easier too, from a millennial perspective. If you know what I mean.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 15, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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He-he.
Nope, 7/20/09 is a very special day. It is the 40th Anniversary of Man on the Moon. That is the day. Sorry. Can't be changed, or the significance will be lost. ;-))
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 15, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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Why make your mind up on this side of eternity. Makes a lot more sense to wait until your dead, because then you'll know one way or the other for sure! Why do you have to make up your mind without the facts? Sounds like a very stupid test when you put it that way.
I like what the gnostic Thomas said, "The kingdom of God will not come by expectation....the kingdom is set upon the earth but men do not see it."
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Jul 15, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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I just saw this thread.
Can someone plez summarize all the important parts?
Did Jeezus come yet?
What is JC's online name?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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Jul 15, 2009 - 08:51pm PT
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If this thread goes over the post count of the Bachar memorial thread I'm gonna f*#king puke... ah sh#t, now I'm part of the problem. Somebody kick me in the nuts for posting on this thread when you see me. Thanks.
-Bob
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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Howie, I'm tempted to start a new one but what's holding me back is the sense that a lot of folks don't want to see more OT clutter. So, I think I'll pass for now.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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dirt, it would appear that tooth beat you to it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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ah well.
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Jul 15, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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No, go start a new forum, not a new thread. For Christs' Sake.
I had all these freakin discussions in high school, talk to someone that has dedicated their life to this shite. Not just a bunch of posers sprayin beta. Half of you people that declare themselves saved are full of shite. What? You had a kid and now you feel that you need jesus. Well the bigoted bs you spew is hardly Christ like. So blow. If you found yourself in a position you like stay there. Enjoy the Jesus you think is best. But please get back to the business of posting shite on climbing because this crap is a bore. Noone is getting converted here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 15, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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A very recent post proselytizing Christianity was deleted. Hear that Apostle- hint, hint!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 15, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Come on you guys.
There was some good stuff on that other thread. I had everyone convinced Moses, Jesus, and John the Baptist were climber's. Man I was on a roll (lol).
Please don't take anything personal here. Who was preaching? It is ok to talk and discuss. I always wear 2 layers of asbestos flame retardant long underwear before coming to the SuperTaco.
Hey, I'm not into hurting anyone's feelings. Can't we discuss contraversial topics w/o getting all flustered and sore at one another? Without name calling. I mean some of it has to be taken tongue in cheek. Debate like in a college debate class. What is the problem with that?
If you don't like the topic of the thread, steer clear of it. I do that plenty. There are many threads on many topics at the Taco. Some I never jump into.
Personally I like that about the ST. Diversity. You can get involved in it or not. Just be kind to one another.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Yeah ...
Lookit some of these guys.
They see a God thread or Jesus Christ thread and they totally lose it. Cry to their mommy's.
Then they go back and worship cold stone.
No wonder we're all dead walking corpses ..........
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 15, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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Klimmer,
You have a good point. I'll go back to my policy of only checking out posts that interest me.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 15, 2009 - 11:27pm PT
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The worst thing about Religion is WHY would such a mighty being as your GOD spent so much of its(indy of gender here)time & effort on a small insignificant, backwater planet, in a backwater of the Cosmos? Nope, that's like going to Circle K instead of the Valley.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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No that's your view captain, not God's.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 16, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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Werner, agree.
Skully, that's just the point....he made us and he loves us... backwater, circle k folk. Nice to know that just us regular people are special and we are loved. :D lynne
Edit: oh by the way, throw out religion skully....that's not where it's at my friend. imho
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:31am PT
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Been gone most of the day, just got back from the Coldplay concert here in So. San Diego. Really great. Anyway . . .
Agreed, I can't say Moses, John the Baptist, or Jesus were climbers, but hey, they all spent considerable time in the wilderness. Of course they didn't sport climb, they were trad and purists! But hey, can't we agree that they probably at least 3rd classed it at times, and may have 4th classed it sans rope once or twice? Hasn't most everyone done some of this even as kids? Kids already know how to climb, we have to relearn as adults. Mankind, we are climbers.
Aren't we all climbers now? I mean climbing is so mainstream. Everywhere I go, everyone is climbing on plastic. What happened to the golden days when climbing was a backwater rebelious anti-social activity?
And Bible Code, I know it sounds like an absolute miracle or made up fantasy (depending on your world-view/perspective to begin with), but reality is stranger than fiction. If you don't check it out you will never know. Perhaps that is why some people don't check it out. They really don't want to know. It might mean having their reality altered, and then making a change.
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Double D
climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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Humble thyself in the sight of the Lord and He shall lift you up!
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jul 17, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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"Lookit some of these guys.
They see a God thread or Jesus Christ thread and they totally lose it. Cry to their mommy's.
Then they go back and worship cold stone.
No wonder we're all dead walking corpses .........."
Very well said, Werner
Doug
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 17, 2009 - 02:25pm PT
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Ah Dr. F,
You do know or have heard this right?
He rose on the third day just as prophecy related before hand that he would, and concurred death. He paid the ultimate price to cover our sins once and for all. Your sins are forgiven if you believe, accept, and live in his grace. He has now given us the hope of death concurred, and we know we live will again.
Death where is thy sting? (paraphrase)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
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Hahahahaha LOL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 17, 2009 - 04:23pm PT
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"Perhaps you need to explore some industrial strength saviors."
Or just take a shorter trip to the dark side. Dick Cheney will take your soul anytime in exchange for Haliburton stock and some seats on lucrative corporate boards.
Peace
Karl
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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he just left chicago.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 17, 2009 - 05:59pm PT
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which train and which direction....
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factortwo
Social climber
Placerville, ca
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Jul 17, 2009 - 08:00pm PT
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Is there an option whereby I might pay for my own sins?
I think the idea of having someone else pay for my sins is the height of immorality, god's son or anyone. I am a pretty good person so the tab really shouldn't be that stiff.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 17, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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"on his way to new orleans" so I'd guess south.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 17, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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You might not see him in person.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 17, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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Can't you buy a stairway to heaven™?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:02am PT
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Hey, I never even asked to be here at all.....There I was, one with the Universe, and then POW! Now I'm here.
Doin' the best I can over here, Boss.
Can I go now?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:06am PT
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Dr. F as much as I think you are a cool dude....yo never thought an unkind thought or were jealous or slammed someone bitd ? I know I have.....lynne
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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So, Dr. F, If I was unfaithful to my husband or wife, but did not believe it was important it was not ....even tho it broke their heart ?
Edit: yes Sir, Skully...."above all, mind your heart" per Bible. Learned that a long time ago after some serious errors. I still guard my heart. Cheers, Sir Skully :D lynne
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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How is YOUR heart?
Mind it well.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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Dr. F. What do you think "sin" means?
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apogee
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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Hoo-boy, and they call the 'Why are the republicans so wrong about everything' thread whacked...
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:32am PT
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"May my spoken and unspoken thoughts be good to you God, my Rock...." Psalm 20:14
I need to get one of those Bible books and note the number of times it talks of Rocks..... God loves rocks and mountains and people and all of the outdoors. Smiles and Peace and remembering Mr. Bachar a friend, truly a real friend. Lynnie
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:35am PT
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I was just wondering if he'll be bringing pancakes this time?
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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Dr. F, on sin.
Most of what you mention is dogma from the religious groups that Jesus, himself, came to expose.
Sin is:
"The Greek word hamartia (ἁμαρτία) is usually translated as sin in the New Testament. In Classical Greek, it means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target" which was also used in Old English archery. In Koine Greek, which was spoken in the time of the New Testament, however, this translation is not adequate." (sorry this is from Wik, I can get it from a better reference, as well. It was included with fair accuracy).
I run a red light. In my thinking, I don't feel guilt. It's just a red light. I have them other places and If I go in front of one, who cares. There are laws, whether we acknowledge "right" or "wrong" doesn't change the laws.
You shall not steal. Natural law, the laws of nature (not the "Nature" posting on ST) exist. Whether you think they should or not, they do. Sin is missing the mark. It's doing something in the "wrong" column - breaking the laws of God. Whether you agree with it or not.
Bunches of faith. It doesn't take bunches of faith to not believe in God. It takes a lack of wisdom. I don't believe atheists don't believe in God. I believe (the intelligent ones) they don't know, more likely, don't want to deal with God. Therefore, choose to either dismiss, ridicule, say God is dead, etc.
None of this changes that God is love, and delivers this love to you every single day. "The earth declares the glory of God", "I am fearfully and wonderfully made". Contemplate the elegant intricacy of our bodies and systems, how strong and fragile. God doesn't need my defense, for some reason, people just struggle with God, mostly, because if God exists, then, you are not boss of the universe.
I'm sure you've already heard someone ask this: Have you been everywhere in the universe - do you know everything there is to know? Then how could any, truly thinking, intelligent, person claim, absolutely, there is no God? In your life there is a god.
Everyone has their god. It might be yourself.
We think the people of times past, like 1, 2 thousand years ago were more primitive. I don't agree.
For example, I'm an artist/painter. The knowledge of painting and draftsmanship only four hundred years ago, only a little more than a hundred years ago, was vastly deeper than anything we know now. The best academic, figurative painters today will tell you this.
Sin is missing the mark. Anyone who says they have not missed the mark in not telling the truth. What is guilt? Guilt is not a negative "feeling", it is a fact. Either you have or not. Period.
The big institutional religions have done a good job of selling it as an emotion. Guilt is not an emotion, it is a legal term.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:24am PT
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I know, Toast? I never understand why they say Jesus when all the images look different. ??? Why they don't say I have this toast that looks like a guys face? I don't get the toast and other food things. Is one of those a pizza? A California roll? Toast or tortillas. I don't get it.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Moral inferiors are instantly recognizable if the subject of atheism comes up in conversation - they will say they don't understand how atheists can be moral people if they do not believe in god. This proves the inferior morals of these people - they admit they themselves have no inner moral compass and must rely on reminders written down or relayed each sunday.
I did not write that. I read it somewhere. But I like it.
Andy
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:38am PT
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TOAST?
I like toast......rye is PDG.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:39am PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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AndyG....are we not all "moral inferiors" ? We all have our short comings and none of us are perfect. I know I certainly miss the mark of doing all that is right on a day to day basis.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Hey, I have Jesus in a piece of toast beat by a long shot:
How about Jesus in a meteorite!!??
I actually bought this meteorite immediately when I first saw it because I noticed the effect of pareidolia almost instantly. It is one of my favorite pieces of the famous Sikhote-Alin witnessed Fe meteorite. I will never sell it. I will pass it on to my children as a family heirloom. Unless the King of Kings comes back sooner.
Edit:
By the way, this is a test. If you don't see Jesus uh, oh . . . that means . . .
Just kidding. Some people see him and others don't.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:46am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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There are 3 major modes.
ignorance, passion and goodness.
The theist and atheist both operate their morals within these 3 modes. These modes exhibit reactions accordingly.
But there is another mode that transcends these 3 and that is pure goodness which has no material reaction.
This is the real platform which the soul is freed from repeated birth and death into the material creation.
Mode of goodness can elevate one up into the upper planetary systems (Christians call heaven) in it's next life but it's still material and once the lifespan there is finished they fall back down.
Heaven is not the designation wanted by liberated souls freed from all material contamination.
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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Howweird,
In the words of one of our recently departed American sidekicks:
"you are correct, sir"
Yes, religion has done all that. Again, I'm not talking about religion. The religious and political powers put him do death. It was the religious system that handed him over. We've seen it in recent times. When you get religion mixed with politics, it always goes that way. When you have people wanting to belong to the right group, the government will certainly take advantage of delivering the goods to get what it wants from the people. I'm, personally, not a religious-right person. People would rather try to belong to the "right group". That is just lazy. It's how cults and the big religions are made. It takes a bit more to walk in a relationship. Hence, the narrow gate.
I mean, you could marry someone and ignore her all the rest of your life. That's what religion is, joining a group, going through the motions, no real relationship. But, I think you already know these things. I have never attacked people who don't believe. In an earlier post, I mentioned I have a real love for people who refer to themselves as atheists. My oldest son was for most of his life. I didn't force anything on him. You simply can't. I didn't argue with him. I listened to his honest, ideas.
God did the work in his life. It was an amazing thing to see.
As far as what "right and wrong" is, most cultures throughout time agree far more than disagree. Until relatively recent times, it was called the "law of nature". Any political science course covers this (different from natural law). As I mentioned before, I'm talking about a relationship, not self-enlightenment, not a religion. A real, living relationship with the very, living God.
BTW, the question of whether people other than Christians are capable of doing good things, or not, was not posed by me. The topic of religion has not been in my comments, other than to say if you don't like religion, you're in good company. Jesus didn't either. You're right to make these things clear. Pure religion, according to Jesus is a very active thing. That is, in everything you do, "give a cup of water to the least of these". This, in a time of serious cultural distinctions and prejudices, like now,throughout the whole world. But, this is what is done in gratitude to God, it shows you have a relationship with Him, it's because of God's free gift of grace. We're not saved by works. You know this already, it's what we've been discussing.
I'm just stating my own position, like you guys are. It's important to challenge it, I welcome you doing so.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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But, what about the atheists?
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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I think the food-fight is part of the culture of the community. I've been around it for a long time, like Evita, I never really left you. I don't take it seriously. Sometimes it's someone trying to make a point with a slam-dunk. It seems like, when the dust clears from the discussion, a new really intelligent version emerges.
Edit: Dr. F. Proof is a very comprehensive word. The most brilliant scientific minds use it sparingly. As for evolution, that, also, is a belief system. The scientific method has rules. Please don't make the assumption that because someone is a Christian, they ignore science. That would be confusing it again with religion. The world being flat, and all, came from the religious views. The Old Testament supports the universe as we know it and the earth's orbit as well as it being a sphere. Just mentioning this because it was posted earlier.
Howweird, when I began my relationship with God, I wasn't in what I would call a conscious need of something. I can tell you later, but right now, I'm off to Yosemite myself. Catch up with you when I come back!
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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I just saw your question so I'll bite before I get in the car.
Been there already. Not hypothetically.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Cragman, what if YOU are wrong?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 18, 2009 - 01:58pm PT
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More like 5000 years, but no matter. It's actually pretty cool how much ayurvedic dogma has been worked out by modern science; they were definitely on to a bunch of things, but like most early efforts to understand the universe they tended to fill in the blanks with made-up stuff. It's only natural.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:03pm PT
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Atheists sue over "In god we trust"
By Rob Hotakainen, McClatchy Newspapers Rob Hotakainen, Mcclatchy Newspapers – Sat Jul 18, 6:00 am ET
WASHINGTON — A California Republican congressman wants to do a little writing on the walls of Washington's newest federal building. If Rep. Dan Lungren gets his way, Congress will spend nearly $100,000 to engrave the words "In God We Trust " and the Pledge of Allegiance in prominent spots at the Capitol Visitor Center .
Lungren's proposal drew only a whimper of opposition last week when the House of Representatives voted 410-8 to approve it. Now, however, Lungren finds himself tussling with a national atheists and agnostics group.
The Wisconsin -based Freedom From Religion Foundation Inc. sued this week to stop the engraving, accusing Lungren of trying to force his religious beliefs on as many as 15 percent of all U.S. adults. That comprises "atheists, agnostics, skeptics and freethinkers, none of whom possess a belief in a god," according to the lawsuit.
"It really is a Judeo-Christian endorsement by our government, and so Lungren is wrong," said Dan Barker of Madison, Wis. , a co-president of the foundation. "Lungren and others are pro-religious, and they want to actually use the machinery of government to promote their particular private religious views. That is unconstitutional, and that's what we're asking the court to decide."
The Senate has approved a similar plan introduced by Republican Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina . The congressional directive orders the Capitol architect to make the changes in the design of the $621 million center, which opened last December.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation , which has 13,500 members, sued in U.S. District Court in Wisconsin . It alleges that Congress is trying to make belief in God synonymous with citizenship and "discouraging nonbelief" among Americans, a contention that Lungren rejects.
Lungren said that the phrase "In God We Trust " had a long history and was consistent with the beliefs of America's founding fathers. He also said that the Declaration of Independence referred to rights given by a creator.
Lungren, a former California attorney general, said that while the proposed engravings incorporated religious references, they didn't violate the Constitution.
"What we're doing is making a specific historical reference to the beginnings of this republic," he said. "To ignore this or to forbid this statement or something like it to appear is to distort history. . . . We're not trying to change history. We're trying to enshrine history in the Capitol Visitor Center ."
Barker said history was better left to others.
"It's not the job of our government and our government buildings to do that," he said. "Historians can point out that many of our founders were indeed religious. But saying 'In God We Trust' in the visitors center of the Capitol is not just some historical reference. It's actually government speaking for all of us Americans."
Barker said the foundation had been waiting for the right case to challenge "In God We Trust ." He said government actions could be challenged on state-church grounds if they had specific religious agendas. In this case, he said, backers of Lungren's plan have provided "the smoking guns" by giving specific, overt religious reasons for doing the engraving.
Barker said that atheists regarded the phrase "In God We Trust " as rude, uncivil and un-American.
"Tens of millions of really good Americans don't believe in God," he said. "In fact, there's many more nonbelievers than there are Jews, and we wouldn't think of offending Jews on our national monuments. . . . Why is it wrong to offend a Jewish minority but it's not wrong to offend those of us who serve in the military and sit on juries but we don't believe in God?"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:07pm PT
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Pope 'can't pray' with wrist in plaster
(AFP) – 6 hours ago
AOSTA, Italy — Pope Benedict XVI celebrated mass Saturday with his broken wrist in plaster but bemoaned an inability to clasp his hands together in prayer, his closest officials said.
"He is learning to live with a right wrist in plaster," Federico Lombardi told AFP, the day after the pope was hospitalised after a fall while on holiday. "The most difficult thing for him is having to give up writing."
Lombardi said the 82-year-old pontiff, who is on a two-week holiday in northern Italy, had slept well and would fly by helicopter on Sunday as planned to Romano Canavese, in the nearby Piedmont region, to recite the evening Angelus prayer.
Lombardi said the rest of the pope's programme during his vacation, which is due to end on July 29, was also unchanged.
Some 10,000 people are expected at the ceremony in the town, the birthplace of Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican number two.
Bertone told ANSA news agency that the inability to write would hold up progress on Pope Benedict's follow-up to his 2007 book entitled "Jesus of Nazareth."
"The pope already had the text's structure outlined in his head," Bertone said.
He added that Pope Benedict had told him he was feeling pain but that "some suffering is not a bad thing. What pains him the most is to be no longer able to bless with his right hand and to be no longer able to clasp his hands together" in prayer.
After the daily mass, Pope Benedict went for a stroll.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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"some suffering is not a bad thing"
the Pope
so, maybe more suffering would be a better thing?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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True, Dr.F,
and extreme Islamists also want world domination, by them
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 18, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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"Life is Suffering"
again as the Shinto priest reflected to Joseph Campbell,
"We have no idiology,
we have no theology,
we just dance."
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 18, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Lynne,
I did not say that anybody is perfect. Of course not. No one ever has been. I am not sure you understand my use of the word inferior. It is a comparator. One thing (a persons morality) is inferior, ie in a lower position or of lower rank, quality, etc than another. That doesn't mean that the person that has superior (opposite of inferior) morals is perfect, just that they have better morals. If there is a continuum they are higher on the continuum, not necessarily at the top. For example, if one person just inherently understands that murder is wrong and another person doesn't inherently understand that murder is wrong but only understands that murder is wrong because she read in the bible that it is wrong (though as an aside, there is one hell of a lot of murdering going on in the bible), then the second person has a less developed sense of morality, ie an inferior sense of morality.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 18, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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"Life is suffering." Yes.
Joyful participation in a world of sorrows...It's all we can do.
Why is it that virtually all world religions see the world/nature/the earth as something diminished, in error, cursed, a thorny manifestation of original sin?
Maybe, just maybe we live in the best of all possible worlds. A world created out of indifference which our very evolution deems best for us, perhaps even perfect.
God is just the aetiological myth through which our pain is made reasonable/understandable.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 05:47pm PT
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A well-known story: in Brazil a nine-year old girl was raped by her stepfather and became pregnant with twins. Her family took her to have an abortion and lo and behold! the Catholic Church, that kind, gentle, benevolent shepherd of the souls of humanity, prounounces an 'automatic excommunication' against the doctor and the parents.
A few months later, the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano felt the need to clarify their position, apparently feeling they were taking too much of a beating in the press. Here's what the Holy See had to say:
...the girl should have been defended, hugged and held tenderly to help her feel that we were all on her side...We have laws, we have a discipline, we have a doctrine of the faith. This is not just theory. And you can't start backpedaling just because the real-life situation carries a certain human weight."
Far be it for real life to intrude upon the medieval dogma of 21st century Catholicism. The article didn't say anything about the stepfather being automatically excommunicated...apparently raping children falls lower on the Catholic Church's hierarchy of sins than having an abortion.
The real tragedy here, aside from the grievous trauma inflicted on the poor girl, is that the Church is continuing to inflict more damage to the poor child. Assuming for a moment that the family and the girl are true-believing Catholics, and not just CINOs, then this girl, on top of having to deal with her rape, is now worried that her mother and father will be roasting in a lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity. As if she didn't have enough to deal with, she (and her parents) now have this on their plate as well. Fortunately for her, as she is not 18, automatic excommuncation does not apply to her, although I'm not sure if she'll be automatically excommunicated upon her 18th birthday. Never having been a Catholic, I'm not sure how all this works.
No surprise of course: if one were to compile a list of grievances, of butcheries, massacres, genocides, tortures and all categories of affronts to humanity perpetrated by the Catholic Church throughout history, this would fall far down the list. The 'benevolent' Pope Benedict has made it clear that dogma is still indeed far more important than the actual end-result of the church's actions in the lives of its parishioners.
As an atheist, I see the ultimate sadness is that people believe any of this garbage at all, that they refuse to open their eyes and think for themselves, and instead continue to allow their lives to be destroyed by a mindless, dogmatic, soul-sucking organization. It's no wonder they're hemorrhaging worshipers at an alarming rate.
dk
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 18, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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He's more likely to come now that Bush is out of office. At least it's less likely he'd be thrown in Gitmo as a terrorist.
Assuming he came as humbly as last time (no fiery thunderbolts form the sky sort of thing) You have to ask yourself
Would you recognize his special wisdom and power?
I mean last time, he didn't preach what the established religion expected and practically all the regular religious folks at the time, even the very pious ones, rejected him.
Current religious folks haven't showed much openness to teachings outside of dogma, so how much will have changed?
I believe Jesus when he said "Ask and it shall be given, seek and you will find" but you have to be open to the answer not being what you expect
peace
karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 18, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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Uh... can you be more specific?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 08:16pm PT
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How Wierd,
Again, 65 million people saw the Reverent ranting, over and
over and over on all the channels.
They did not give a sh#t, and voted for Obama.
Only a dumbass Republican would believe it meant something.
News flash, there is a very good reason your party keeps
losing elections and your "base" keeps shrinking.
Spend some time thinking about the reasons WHY, instead
of rehashing crap no one cares about.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
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How Wierd, YOU are the one speaking of Obama as some sort
of ordained king or whatever, not me, never have, period.
No where did I give my own thoughts as about some " coronation"
although I did make a personal prediction that he will in
all probability be re elected, just as I predicted that
Shrub would be re elected.
I challenge you to show where I ever said or alluded to
any kind of personal glorification or "coronation" of Obama.
I believe you constantly see only what you want to see, and
you make up all kinds of sh#t, just like this lie right now.
Show me where you find this.
This is common for right wingers like you to ascribe to
left wingers that we view Obama with some kind of awe.
We don't, we just think he was a hell of a lot better choice
than John McCain.
No one here puts words in YOUR mouth and lies like you do.
And yes, it is a lie, when you say things like you say I said
above and cannot back it up. That makes you not only
ignorant, but also a make it up liar.
So, again, prove your statement about me.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2009 - 11:59pm PT
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It's now been two hours since I called How Weird Dean a liar.
I challenged him to prove his lie.
He has failed to do so.
He is through, exposed as the ignorant LIAR he is.
He has NO credibility.
Cut this lying, delusional,right wing tool off if he ever tries to post.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 19, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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I will dive back into this discussion later, but just for now taking a time out. We discuss multitudes of philosophy here on this thread and others.
But it seems to me we remember the almost dozen we have lost over the past few months but briefly......at least to me it is WAY to briefly.
These were incredible humans.....we say a few words and then they are Gone. No more discussion, Out. Why is that? I would much rather ask people to tell us the stories of the ones we have lost to remember the special people they are/were than inane posts to threads that are ..... well not that special.
Edit: Went to the ocean today....mountains to far and I am on call for work. To me Oceans are same as the mountains when it comes to feeling and thinking and living out life here on the planet....tall, deep, vast, comprised of spectacular beauty, mystical and not able to be discerned. Peace and more Peace to the fallen and the ones that love them so very much. Lynne
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Jul 19, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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Howweird - this Reverend Wright obsession you have is really quite something. President Obama spoke at the NAACP convention this week. As a human with great charisma and strong powers of communication, he used a style of speaking that was likely to reach that audience.
For some reason, you try to bring up a bogey/straw-man that President Obama's electoral adversaries - from both the Democratic party in the primaries, and the Republican party in the general election - tried to create. It really did not work then, but you are still trying to refresh this attempt at striking fear into the hearts of white people.
Instead of that association, let's take a look at what the President said to the NAACP, shall we?
"“No one has written your destiny for you,” he said, directing his remarks to “all the other Barack Obamas out there” who might one day grow up to be president. “Your destiny is in your hands, and don’t you forget that. That’s what we have to teach all of our children! No excuses! No excuses!”"
Your destiny is in your hands....no excuses. It sounds so very, I don't know, Republican and meritocratic.
You are welcome to think that President Obama's election is the worst thing to happen to this country. I think that displays a profound ignorance on your part - half of the Union seceding was not worse than his election? Our 10 year involvement in a losing war in Vietnam was not worse? The Great Depression and the Dust Bowl were not worse? The attacks of September 11, 2001 were not worse? Our nation's reaction to those attacks - when we "struck out like an angry drunk," to quote a wise friend of mine who spoke those prescient words on September 12, 2001 - were not worse? Really, you ought to retract the hyperbole, or sit down in a calm state and learn some history.
I know, it is a lot easier to listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and get all worked up about things. Stick with that, see how far it gets you and the rest of the GOP.
I don't think there is much chance I will vote for many Republicans in my life, although I will admit to having to hold my nose while voting for plenty of Democrats. What I would most like to see is the return of a vibrant, thoughtful Republican party, to represent in an honest way that philosophy that we refer to as "conservative". You and your ilk are not helping to bring that about, and until you wise up and learn to be reasonable, you are going to lose a lot of elections.
Lynne - glad to hear there was some beauty in your day. Mine was filled with wonder as well. I don't think we agree on what deity/force of nature/random chance created that beauty, but I know we agree that we need to drink deep draughts of it, share it with all those around us, and take great joy in the brief moments that we have to share with beautiful souls. Many thanks for your consistent reminders of that.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 19, 2009 - 05:28am PT
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"God is just the aetiological myth through which our pain is made reasonable/understandable."
absolutley brilliant!
[img]http://www.oldmontana.com/prints/birthday-l.gif/img'
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 19, 2009 - 05:34am PT
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New 20 bump
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BOSS
"From the day my comic strip Rick O'Shay began, back in April of 1958, I resolved to avoid the Santa Claus/Easter Bunny approach to the two major Christian holidays and try to portray something of their true meaning. The Sunday page for December 23, 1973 is the prime example of that decision. It featured my character Hipshot Percussion, and is without question the single most popular cartoon I've ever done."
-Stan Lynde
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richross
Trad climber
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Jul 19, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 19, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Dr. F. It's rather simple. Obama is the President and thus all the economic problems are his and his alone. Get with the program. Forget Shrub. He was a nice enough guy and now that he's gone cannot be blamed for anything.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2009 - 12:52pm PT
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Doesn't this stuff belong on the Republican thread?
"These people voted for Obama for what I would generously call "warm and fuzzy" reasons without any true comprehension of the underlying ideologies of the various candidates or political and economic ramifications."
As if ideology meant much. Bush didn't do much that matches alleged conservative ideology.
Just like Traditional Christianity doesn't seem to mirror the teachings of Jesus very well.
I guess it's like in the bible where Jesus tells a parable and asks, basically, "who is truer, the man who says yes and doesn't do it, or the one who says no, and actually walks the walk."
Peace
Karl
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 19, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Oh Karl... why bother pointing out their hypocritical statements? How they made decisions in the past has little reflection on how they will act or judge in the future. It's part of blind faith or something.
Dr. F - yes, kidding of course. fish on! ;-)
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 19, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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I hope he is wearing a rubber.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 19, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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You can say that HWD, but the same is true for Bush. If he was a bit stiffer and Gore was a lot folksier, there would NEVER have been 8 years of hell.
Folks are simple and vote what seems "like them"
Just the way it is.
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 19, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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Howar5d wrote
"I agree with your comments about a failed election strategy but where you and I differ is that I am not so sure the strategy "failed" because it had no merit. Rather, I think the voter base for Obama was composed of two major types of individuals. One type was intelligent folks such as yourself who are knowledgeable re the issues and voted for Obama because of a concordance in respective ideologies. HOWEVER, I do also believe that there was a large contingency of voters who would not know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to the sort of economic and sociopolitical issues we address here.
These people voted for Obama for what I would generously call "warm and fuzzy" reasons without any true comprehension of the underlying ideologies of the various candidates or political and economic ramifications."
Huh. It was clear that a standard GOP party line had totally blown up per being a functional gov. agency, unless you consider out current state of affairs as good. The old white guard had their shot and tanked the place, and they continue blaming others.
No one is listening anymore, especially foreign journalists. The old GOP guard has lost all credibility, made all the worse by the recent gratuitous grandstanding per Sotomayor. What a total waste of people's time listening to those old crackers wank on about her lack of objectivity and so forth.
It's like looking at reruns of bad tv shows from the 50s. The dialogue prattles on but it has nothing credible to say per today, like so much senile ranting.
Time to focus on who are making the decisions right now, and forget the pipedream that such decisions will ever revert to old moth eaten baby boomers. That gig is so over.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jul 19, 2009 - 03:57pm PT
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I´m still stuck in Panama so I´ll kep rntng.
He wrote--1. Obama has a socioeconomic vision which would fashion our system into that which parallels what we see in Europe. I am not about to explain it to you but you are certainly free to read up on it. My own view and opinion of that is that such sucks big wet ones.
This cuts to the heart of the delusion still gripped by the GOP - that there still remains a viable system in place. It broke - or did you hear. All the old trappings, the huge invading forces, endless expandig economy, limitless fees for sevices - it´s all gone, forever. What part of that isn´t clear...
JL
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 19, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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Ever notice how dragonflies hunt? They find a good spot facing into the wind and they wait. When they see a tiny morsel of something that might be food coming in on the breeze, they calculate its speed and then zip up, grab it, and drop back to their perch, landing back in exactly the same spot.
They do this all day.
Parables are cool. Consider the diesel engine....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 19, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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See what I mean?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 19, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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"Japanese children catch large dragonflies as a game, using a hair with a small pebble tied to each end, which they throw into the air. The dragonfly mistakes the pebbles for prey, gets tangled in the hair, and is dragged to the ground by the weight."
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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Back on TOPIC!!!!!!!
You can't use the language "God Damn" because you're an atheist.
Atheist says there is no God. So how you damn him? Impossible.
Hippocratic.
And don't give me any such bullsh'it saying it's just words.
God doesn't exist. Why you use this word or if he doesn't exist the word shouldn't exist either.
This is all too simple for your complicated modern brain to comprehend.
And in the end you'll use and try some word jugglery to to defend your rascaldom.
All rascals .....
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jul 19, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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What's your handicap Howie?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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Every day you speak to him and he speaks to you.
24 hours a day forever.
Still you don't recognize him.
This is the beauty of a real honest to god soul.
You'll recognize him when you're really ready.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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Was gonna write something....but hey, this thread is "just a pile of crap" and no ones allowed an opinion if it differs from the hard core anti jesus freaks.
The one thing I am amazed at is the rant rarely ever responds to the suggestions of checking out personally for themselves if there really is a God or Jesus.
So rant on .... and on. Don't notice the beauty around you, the incredible engineering of an eye or the wind you cannot see, or the colors of life, sunsets and peoples of all nations and races that create an amazing spectrum of life and love on this planet.
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Window Dressing
Social climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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...the incredible engineering of an eye or the wind you cannot see, or the colors of life, sunsets and peoples...
God's creation is quite a painting, isn't it? Word is, His spiritual realms put the physical one's to shame.
Cheers,
-Mike
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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"If you actually think you hear voices, I got a drug that will fix that, its an anti schizophrenia drug."
It's nice to know you've already been seeking help!
;-)
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:58am PT
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Window Dressing...."his spiritual realms put the physical ones to shame."
Oh Yeah !!! Do they ever. Would love to discuss this topic and some of the incredible things I've seen and learned since Dan died. When a life changing event happens you can choose how you embrace it, contain it, and allow it to pour (or not) into your life...which includes your heart, soul, mind and spiritual being.
It can be life changing or life ending. But the spiritual realms are indeed there to be discovered, if you chose to be a Columbus or a South Pacific navigator looking for an island that you know is out there.....
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Window Dressing
Social climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:59am PT
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Maybe God created the eye or the wind or whatever, maybe God didn't. But nobody ever has suggested that Jesus did it
Actually, the apostle John did. This from the bible (John 1):
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created...The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Regards,
-Mike
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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Rokjox, remember that EF Hutton (I think it was) Ad Campaign about when EF Hutton talks....everyone listens?
Dude, jesus talks to me all the time.....he's god, he can do that. Thing is you have to take some quiet time to hear him. He talks to us through the bible too. Read Psalm 139. Pretty Cool.
Cheers, from Lynne....who's still hurting for all the families and loved ones of the at least 10 fallen climbers over the past couple months. It hurts to lose someone you love.
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Window Dressing
Social climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 03:41am PT
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Well, I for one, have no idea when Jesus is coming back. "Soon" may be just a matter of perspective. Some Christians feel compelled to make these kind of bold proclamations of it, but many of us, Christians or not, are just responding to matters of Jesus, and faith in general, that have been coming up in this thread.
As for the hubris of religious people, there is certainly no shortage. I understand the nausea you feel. I feel it too, frankly. Posers, yeah, sure - all over the place. Of course, there's plenty of hubris to go around. A lot of professing Christians have it, so do a lot of their detractors.
As for the "one-on-one, directly line to God' claims, I just let people claim what they claim. It would be pretty long on 'hubris' for me to tell them how they are or are not talking to God - or how God is or isn't talking to them. You or me finding it difficult to believe is really nothing more than irrelevant.
Anyway, here's to civil, constructive discussions!
Cheers,
-Mike
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 20, 2009 - 09:11am PT
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Okay, finally taking a look at this little play-place yo'all have created. Real fertile ground. Let's start off with something easy. Something right off the shelf, say.
A-Pustule is right, J/C is coming; he is riding a dinosaur of course and pterodactyls, archaeopteryx are already hovering above, and of course J/C has a baby dino in hand. As always believed--nothing new here---J/C is of course Aryan and rather hot, to say the least, even in the rather femmy thongs and Frat Toga. The baby Bronto is proud, as you can see, to be carry the son of God also and notices the other dinos up the hill are checking him out. Times are good! This picture proves beyond a doubt the existence of the Divine and a 6000-year old earth. now STFU.
Further, it is an accepted fact that Jesus is "everywhere" anyway, his second coming will sort of be a bit "after-the-fact". Even this morning, he was on my kitchen counter:
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jul 20, 2009 - 09:59am PT
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"Dick, It is around 80"
That's some good golfing Howie! I was heading into the 80's last year, then started school this summer, and work, and family...golf is taking a big hit and it's killing me.
How'd you like the British Open? That was fun watching Watson work around that course...cagey he is!
With regards to the OP folks...don't hold your breath!
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Jul 20, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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"Back on TOPIC!!!!!!!
You can't use the language "God Damn" because you're an atheist.
Atheist says there is no God. So how you damn him? Impossible."
Uhh, how do you damn him if he DOES exist? How does anyone damn anyone? What is this "damning" all about anyway? I guess its just words after all.
BTW, no god ever existed that man did not invent. So, tell me about YOUR god so I can have the pleasure in disbelieving in him as well. Its such joy.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:08am PT
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Shivo Hum
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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"Yeah, you are right about that. It is always a balancing act - work, family, golf and whatever else you have on board. I get out there as much as I can which is not as often as I would like."
Yep, I took up golfing since as a compromise to climbing since climbing took up too much time...ah, the irony in that statement!
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apogee
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:23am PT
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"This thread is a pile of crap, making promises out of fairy dust."
600+ posts? That's nuthin'- if a thread can exceed 2500 posts solely based on slagging a political party, resulting in virtually nothing productive whatsoever, I have supreme confidence that a thread related to Christianity can do every bit as well (if not better).
Keep on sprayin', folks!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:44am PT
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Cragman, Thanks for taking the time to share your awesome story. It's indeed all about the journey and learning to walk as Jesus walked 1John 2:5
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 20, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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CCM,
Word. Very true.
Cragman,
Inspirational story. Thanks.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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pdx_climber
Sport climber
portland,or
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Jul 20, 2009 - 12:59pm PT
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Personally, I tend to exclaim...
OH MY ALIEN!!!
or
JEEPER FKN ALIEN!!!!
ps, please don't pray for me, that's just creepy....
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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"OHMYFREAKINSPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!1
Moses had bad eyesight
Ancient painting on Tibetan Monestary
And microbiological evidence:
Oh, I am looking up for another coming, but it's with Pastafarian eyes I scan the sky.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 20, 2009 - 01:26pm PT
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HAHA.....Pastafarian. That's good, E.
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strange grange
Trad climber
Glenwood Springs Colorado
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Jul 20, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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Great! Hope I can get a belay
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asioux
Trad climber
Rancho Cucamonga
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Jul 20, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Wow I can't belive that this post has made it's way back to the top and at 600+ post. One thing forsure is that according to the Bible and the signs of the return of Christ is happening so rapidly it is exciting to see. Jesus himself told to be watchful of the signs of the end of the age, and of the Old testament prophets that God used to write it down in his word for us to learn. Things that were predicted before Christ was on the earth are happening, especially in the middle east, with Iran, turkey and the rising power of Russia. It is all in the Bible. It is amazing to see that Christ is so close to return for his Church. And for the ones that reject God, I really feel deep saddness for them. God does not want anybody to perish. Jesus said "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying I am the Christ," and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Matthew 24:4-8 That is where we are now. The beginning of sorrows.
In II Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
In the book of Revelation Jesus said 22-7 "Behold I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book (Bible). and in Verse 12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Verse 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,' that they may have have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city (Heaven). In verse 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murders and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Those are the ones that will be not be allowed into the kingdom of heaven.
People can and will say. You Christians have been saying Jesus is coming soon for years. Well the Bible says in II Peter 3:8
"But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day.In verse 9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.. In Verse 10. "But the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will burn up. In verse 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness.
Search the Scriptures in the bible daily to find out whether these things were so Acts 17:11
As a new beliver in Christ I have done just that and putting my faith in Christ and having a relationship with God and experiencing the goodness and the power of God and being filled with the Holy spirit that is a gift that God gives and having my prayers answered and God being truthful to his word, having a relationship with God and understanding his word is incredible... For a non beliver in God it can be hard to understand a person that is a Christain. A person that has a relationship with God, who tries to share with others understands and knows the importance of trying to save ones soul from going to a place called Hell it is extremly important. Especially in the days we are living in. There are so many religions out there that a lot of people are being deceived and to someone who are born again through Christ Jesus see the urgency to reach those that need to know the truth, before it is to late. Religion is not the way. It is Jesus Christ. He is the way. John 14:6 Jesus said "I am the way the truth, and the life; no man comeith to the father (God)but by me.
So when somebody says that they will pray for you, understand that they care for you and that they love you and know what will happen to people who reject God the creator of our existence and this world. Genesis 1:1-31
So be not offended when somebody shares the word of God with you. Be thankful that a stranger that you do not know has a caring heart to share with you the most important thing that you can ever hear. Just know that there is a God and that Christ died on a cross for our sins, have faith in what you can't see and let God show you his love and allow him to have a relationship with you, it is awesome.
Before I end my reply to this important post, I must share this with you. Prayer of Salvation
Father in Heaven
I come to You in the precious name of your son Jesus. I know He died for me on the cross and rose again, that I may have Eternal Life. I ask for forgiveness of my sins. I ask the Holy Spirit to come into my life to guide and direct my life. I commit my life to You. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen
The Bible says there are four things a person must know to go to heaven:
1. Realize you are a sinner...Romans 3:23
2. Sinners spend eternity in Hell...Romans 6:23
3. Jesus took your Hell for you...Romans 6:23
4. Recive Him- who He is and what He's done for you... Revelation 3:20
God Bless see you on the Rocks! And if not in Heaven.
AF
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:02pm PT
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Dr. F, if you would just read some of mi past posts....jesus is Not religion. Just read Matthew slowly and thoughtfully. Jesus was against the established religious hypocrites in his day. He loved the people and spoke forcefully against what he called "whited sepluchers"....religious people that looked good on the outside but were ugly, false and fake on the inside. These frauds were always after the regular people's money and time and devotion to their causes.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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So, with a start like that, what happened?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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I just...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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wanna be...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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a very...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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VERY...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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VERY...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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EVIL...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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person,...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:05pm PT
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MORE...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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EVIL...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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than...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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SATAN...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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himself.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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SO...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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I...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:06pm PT
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am...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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going...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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to be...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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the evil one...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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posting post #666...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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on a JESUS CHRIST...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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thread.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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so...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:08pm PT
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HERE IT IS BITCHES, POST #666!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!111!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Jaybro, who ya talking to ???
Dirtbag, why ??? evil only inflicts pain on others....nice life aspirations. I can only assume you are jess kiddin'. :D
Edit: or doing a burma shave commercial
Double Edit: or doing what I always forget...looking at the post numbers.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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But post #666 arrived first - and Lynne got it!!!111
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:24pm PT
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Someone deleted a post to drag mine down to 665. It was 666.
I AM BUMMED.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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Lynne, basically I was responding to your point, (while riding the devil's burma shave drive along)
You made some very good points and things that I am with. Why is it that though, I get the sincerity and passion from you, I don't take that as reason to generally trust the views of those who label themselves, "Christian"?
I was raised methodist and my mom goes to church, and I kinda meet the whole range of folks there, I just don't thing it's the nature of ANY organized religion to be 'The way."
In the last 2k years the Jesus thing ( whose basic concepts I don't agree with , though I see a lot of good in it) has had splinters, some of them mainstream, turning as corrupt as anything out there. So, you have to look deeper than mere labels.
We are each on our own, and have to figure it out for ourselves. There is plenty of useful help out there. But Nobody, has 'The Way', for anybody else. And the condescending way that people in Many shticks presume on behalf of their own, 'all mighty' doesn't really give anybody, credibility. The whole task is to figure it out on your own.
You Lynne, seem to have a way that works for you and I respect that, go with it! But it has to be differently for each individual, as needed, or there is no point to it in the first place...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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Losing Sight of Progress
How blind salamanders make nonsense of creationists' claims.
By Christopher Hitchens
Posted Monday, July 21, 2008, at 11:34 AM ET
It is extremely seldom that one has the opportunity to think a new thought about a familiar subject, let alone an original thought on a contested subject, so when I had a moment of eureka a few nights ago, my very first instinct was to distrust my very first instinct. To phrase it briefly, I was watching the astonishing TV series Planet Earth (which, by the way, contains photography of the natural world of a sort that redefines the art) and had come to the segment that deals with life underground. The subterranean caverns and rivers of our world are one of the last unexplored frontiers, and the sheer extent of the discoveries, in Mexico and Indonesia particularly, is quite enough to stagger the mind. Various creatures were found doing their thing far away from the light, and as they were caught by the camera, I noticed—in particular of the salamanders—that they had typical faces. In other words, they had mouths and muzzles and eyes arranged in the same way as most animals. Except that the eyes were denoted only by little concavities or indentations. Even as I was grasping the implications of this, the fine voice of Sir David Attenborough was telling me how many millions of years it had taken for these denizens of the underworld to lose the eyes they had once possessed.
If you follow the continuing argument between the advocates of Darwin's natural selection theory and the partisans of creationism or "intelligent design," you will instantly see what I am driving at. The creationists (to give them their proper name and to deny them their annoying annexation of the word intelligent) invariably speak of the eye in hushed tones. How, they demand to know, can such a sophisticated organ have gone through clumsy evolutionary stages in order to reach its current magnificence and versatility? The problem was best phrased by Darwin himself, in his essay "Organs of Extreme Perfection and Complication":
To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.
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His defenders, such as Michael Shermer in his excellent book Why Darwin Matters, draw upon post-Darwinian scientific advances. They do not rely on what might be loosely called "blind chance":
Evolution also posits that modern organisms should show a variety of structures from simple to complex, reflecting an evolutionary history rather than an instantaneous creation. The human eye, for example, is the result of a long and complex pathway that goes back hundreds of millions of years. Initially a simple eyespot with a handful of light-sensitive cells that provided information to the organism about an important source of the light …
Hold it right there, says Ann Coulter in her ridiculous book Godless: The Church of Liberalism. "The interesting question is not: How did a primitive eye become a complex eye? The interesting question is: How did the 'light-sensitive cells' come to exist in the first place?"
The salamanders of Planet Earth appear to this layman to furnish a possibly devastating answer to that question. Humans are almost programmed to think in terms of progress and of gradual yet upward curves, even when confronted with evidence that the past includes as many great dyings out of species as it does examples of the burgeoning of them. Thus even Shermer subconsciously talks of a "pathway" that implicitly stretches ahead. But what of the creatures who turned around and headed back in the opposite direction, from complex to primitive in point of eyesight, and ended up losing even the eyes they did have?
Whoever benefits from this inquiry, it cannot possibly be Coulter or her patrons at the creationist Discovery Institute. The most they can do is to intone that "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away." Whereas the likelihood that the post-ocular blindness of underground salamanders is another aspect of evolution by natural selection seems, when you think about it at all, so overwhelmingly probable as to constitute a near certainty. I wrote to professor Richard Dawkins to ask if I had stumbled on the outlines of a point, and he replied as follows:
Vestigial eyes, for example, are clear evidence that these cave salamanders must have had ancestors who were different from them—had eyes, in this case. That is evolution. Why on earth would God create a salamander with vestiges of eyes? If he wanted to create blind salamanders, why not just create blind salamanders? Why give them dummy eyes that don't work and that look as though they were inherited from sighted ancestors? Maybe your point is a little different from this, in which case I don't think I have seen it written down before.
I recommend for further reading the chapter on eyes and the many different ways in which they are formed that is contained in Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable; also "The Blind Cave Fish's Tale" in his Chaucerian collection The Ancestor's Tale. I am not myself able to add anything about the formation of light cells, eyespots, and lenses, but I do think that there is a dialectical usefulness to considering the conventional arguments in reverse, as it were. For example, to the old theistic question, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" we can now counterpose the findings of professor Lawrence Krauss and others, about the foreseeable heat death of the universe, the Hubble "red shift" that shows the universe's rate of explosive expansion actually increasing, and the not-so-far-off collision of our own galaxy with Andromeda, already loomingly visible in the night sky. So, the question can and must be rephrased: "Why will our brief 'something' so soon be replaced with nothing?" It's only once we shake our own innate belief in linear progression and consider the many recessions we have undergone and will undergo that we can grasp the gross stupidity of those who repose their faith in divine providence and godly design.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 20, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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Dawkins also points out that whales were once land mammals and the hippopotamus is well advanced along the line taken when the whale returned to the sea.
If we disregard Mr. Phelps there is no apparent evidence Homo Sapiens is on this path. If we are, we had better hurry. Before long the sea will be too polluted to allow any life.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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So Wes, you are now depriving me of the "number"? Thought yo were my friend.....
Kidding, but where did this number 666 come from ? I don't remember reading about it in the bible ? lynnie
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:22pm PT
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Oldest copies of revelations actually use the number 616 instead.
Wonder how many people have been persecuted for having some 666 connection when it just as easily could be 616?
Peace
Karl
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 20, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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Maybe it's actually 919, area code of the Beast!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 21, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Back on track. Something for everyone to contemplate.
For us believers more truth, edification,and bolstering of our faith. For non-beleivers more evidence to perhaps work into your heart unawares. You decide.
http://bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 21, 2009 - 04:19pm PT
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"revealation," Karl, it's singular.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
way, WAY out there....(OMG)
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Jul 21, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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oh, oh, OHHHHHHHH!!!!!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 22, 2009 - 01:14am PT
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Jesus hasn't come yet, but he's breathing hard.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 22, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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...and clinching his sphicter muscle
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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I'm not sure the Bible Code makes real sense. I mean, why does it have to be in code? Why can't God just tell us the truth? Why Can't God just explain his universe to us. Why doesn't God just come on the evening news and explain why he created smallpox, cancer and death? He could tell us why everybody that has ever lived has died. Is that due to a design flaw? What's the point of all the mystery? Why is the truth hidden in strange numerical orders? Why is faith necessary to our salvation if reason is programmed into our very nature?
Again, why all the mystery? And don't give me the "you can't understand the great mystery of God; it would be like you trying to explain something complex to your dog" BS. We're all adults here and we're all capable of understanding the universe we find ourselves in.
How adults can believe in talking snakes and world wide floods zombies and the reality of great unexplained mysteries and then turn around and declare the moon landing a hoax is really beyond comprehension!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 22, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Oh, blinding light.
Oh, light that blinds.
I cannot see.
Look out for me......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2009 - 07:46pm PT
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The Bible quotes are interesting. There is one quote in the new testament from which the entire Christian doctrine seems to unravel into incomprehension. Romans 11:32
"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
This is Augustine's oxymoron. O felix culpa. The joy of sin is the experience of forgiveness. All this begs the question why must mankind be bound up in sin. This quote would indicate it's for the pleasure of God.
Really, don't you think this is senseless?
Like Osiris, Zeus, and a long list of other anthropomorphic deities Christ will eventually fade into the oblivion of history, though not without the toll taken by followers who, because they KNOW, exert the proper force against their fellow human beings.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jul 22, 2009 - 08:19pm PT
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for the 700th post
a more "Metro" Jesus for the new age:
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KlimbIn
climber
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Jul 22, 2009 - 09:15pm PT
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shouldn't somebody get the tissues -- it's been a while
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 22, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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I agree these issues require tissues.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 24, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Lynne, you don't remember seeing 666 in the bible?
Revelation 13:17-18
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
It has also been 616 in some mss.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 24, 2009 - 12:10pm PT
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Jesus is coming back, so get used to it.
Doug
BTW, BUMP
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seth kovar
climber
Bay Area
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Did Jesus come yet? I was in the bathroom.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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Fart noises and this thread, what do they have in common? They're both stinky and laughable.
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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eli's comminn!
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Nice pate. Funny sh#t. We'd have fun climbing together, bashing Christians and republicans at every pitch. If lightening strikes us down... Might be a sign...
That we shouldn't climb in thunderstorms.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Jun 21, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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What would cheeses do?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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A biblical story that probably does have some foundation. I saw Adam's first meeting with Eve acted out once.
Adam's face was very worried and his concern for Eve's safety was evident as he advised her to stand back. He said, "I don't know how big this thing is going to get!"
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Ain't that just like a guy, Tami?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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Man, apostle hasn't even shown his keyboard here in what, like a year and a half?
Geebus....
Failed prophecies:
About 30 CE: The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen. More details.
About 60 CE: Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century. More details.
About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.
2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.
365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn't.
375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.
500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.
968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.
992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event.
1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000. Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts. Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly, as it later did in the year 2000.
1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.
1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.
1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus' actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.
1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine's reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.
1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.
1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.
1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.
1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.
1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.
1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.
1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus' return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.
1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.
1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.
1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah's for OCT-13 of this year.
1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.
1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought Doomsday would be in this year.
1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.
1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants section 130:
14: "I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:"
15: "Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter."
16: "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."
17: "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." 14
The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. 16 Smith is later recorded as having said:
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." 17
Smith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, having been assassinated by a mob. Note that his prophecy is ambiguous. It can be interpreted that:
Jesus would return during 1890 (which did not materialize) or that
1890 would pass without Jesus' return (which did come to pass).
Some anti-Mormon sources quote only verses 14 and 15, and draw the former conclusion -- that Smith's prophecy failed.
1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy.
1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called "The Great Disappointment," many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.
1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesied that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' ...now time is almost finished...and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." 10
1856 or later: At Ellen White's last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote "I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. "By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure." 12
1881: Mother Shipton, (1488 - 1561), a 16th century mystic predicted the end of the world: "...The world to an end shall come; in eighteen hundred and eighty-one."
1891 or before: On 1835-FEB-14, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, attended a meeting of church leaders. He said that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it. He announced that Jesus would return within 56 years -- i.e. before 1891-FEB-15. (History of the Church 2:182)
1914 was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society). They based their prophecy of 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter 4. The writings referred to "seven times". The WTS interpreted each "time" as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date. When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule.
1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994, etc. were other dates that the Watchtower Society (WTS) or its members predicted. Since late in the 19th century, they had taught that the "battle of the Great Day of God Almighty" (Armageddon) would happen in 1914 CE. It didn't.
The next major estimate was 1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year." 6
The Watchtower Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate "according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation." 8 They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam's creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed.
The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. 9 There is no way of knowing when this happened.
More details on the WTS predictions.
1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17.
References used:
The following information sources were used to prepare and update the above essay. The hyperlinks are not necessarily still active today.
Richard Kyle, "The last days are here again: A history of the end times," Baker Books, (1998), Page 111. You can read a review and safely buy this book from Amazon.com online bookstore
Watchtower magazine, 1924-JUL-15, Page 211).
William Martin, "Waiting for the End: The growing interest in apocalyptic prophesy," The Atlantic Monthly, 1982-JUN. Online at: http://www.theatlantic.com/
"Herman L. Hoeh," Wikipedia, downloaded on 2006-APR-24, from: http://en.wikipedia.org/
Mike Harris Jr., "Arnold Murray. False Teacher. False Prophet.," Mikes Christian Corner, at: http://www.mikeschristiancorner.com/
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:02am PT
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Messianic Prophecies
Fulfilled by Jesus Christ
A prophecy is the future told in advance by God through a prophet.
"Does the Old Testament contain any prophecies about the Messiah?"
Yes! The Old Testament contains about FOUR HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE prophecies about the Messiah. Here is a small sample (in roughly chronological order):
BE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE
Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ... 700 B.C.
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
John 1:1-3, 14 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
BORN OF A VIRGIN
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C.
Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH
Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE
Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.
Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."
Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [5] ... Obed the father of Jesse, [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID
Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C.
Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH
Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.
Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
Over the years there have been a number of "Bethlehems" in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as "Bethlehem in Judea", was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, (c) 1995)
BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE
Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan -- [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.
Matthew 2:22-23 [22] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."
Matthew 4:13-16 [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- [14] to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles -- [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."
HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS
Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more." 625 B.C.
Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
An interesting side note: most people think that Herod killed thousands of babies. However, Bethlehem was "in the boondocks." The chances are that less than thirty babies were killed.
COME OUT OF EGYPT
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C.
Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES
Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." 700 B.C.
Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C.
Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."
Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as "the nations."
MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS
Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. 700 B.C.
Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. 700 B.C.
Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."
MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES
Isaiah 61:1-2 [1] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, [2] to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 700 B.C.
Luke 4:16-21 [16] He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. [17] The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: [18] "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, [19] to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." [20] Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, [21] and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
Not too shabby, considering it was His first sermon!
DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN
Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C.
The Crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels show this prophecy fulfilled.
HATED WITHOUT CAUSE
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.
Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you." 700 B.C.
John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."
John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'
REJECTED BY RULERS
Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. before 400 B.C.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
John 7:48-49 Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them.
REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS
Psalms 69:8 I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons 1000 B.C.
(Side note: this pretty much kills the Catholic Church's claim that when the Gospels name Jesus' brothers they are talking about His cousins.)
Mark 3:20-21 [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
John 7:1-5 [1] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3] Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. [4] No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER
Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 500 B.C.
Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
SILVER RETURNED
SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD
Zechariah 11:12-13 [12] I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 500 B.C.
Matthew 27:3-10 [3] When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [4] "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." [5] So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [6] The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." [7] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [8] That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [9] Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, [10] and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER
Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones." 500 B.C.
Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: " `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'"
Don't let the facts of history get in the way of rebelliousness,
Doug
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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Cheese and Rice! Won't this ever stop?
Anyway, did you hear about the new dairy business in Israel? It's going to be called Cheeses of Nazareth.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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This "soon" thing is a real irritant - at each next moment, it could be the next moment.
Sorry, but the stress is starting to show...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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The wonderful thing about tiggers
Is tiggers are wonderful things!
Their tops are made out of rubber;
Their bottoms are made out of springs!
They're bouncy, trouncy, flouncy, pouncy,
Fun! Fun! Fun! Fun! Fun!
But the most wonderful thing about tiggers is
I'm the only one!
Oh the wonderful thing about tiggers
Is tiggers are wonderful chaps!
They're loaded with vim and with vigor;
They love to leap in your laps!
They're jumpy, bumpy, clumpy, thumpy,
Fun! Fun! Fun! Fun! Fun!
But the most wonderful thing about tiggers is
I'm the only one!
Tiggers are cuddly fellas.
Tiggers are awfully sweet.
Ev'ryone else is jealous.
That's why I repeat and repeat:
The wonderful thing about tiggers
Is tiggers are wonderful things!
Their tops are made out of rubber;
Their bottoms are made out of springs!
They're bouncy, trouncy, flouncy, pouncy,
Fun! Fun! Fun! Fun! Fun!
But the most wonderful thing about tiggers is
I'm the only one! (Richard Sherman and Robert Sherman)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Pate- "Tami. Jesus hates lesbians!"
Not true!
Jesus loves "lesbians"!
Jesus loves the whole world(everybody)!
But, Jesus hates sin!
Jesus hates the sin...not the sinner!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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What does Jeebus think about tiggers?
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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Brrrrrrrrr (fart noise)
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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The science of probability attempts to determine the chance that a given event will occur. The value and accuracy of the science of probability has been well established beyond doubt - for example, insurance rates are fixed according to statistical probabilities.
For example, concerning Micah 5:2, where it states the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem Ephrathah, Stoner and his students determined the average population of BETHLEHEM from the time of Micah to the present; then they divided it by the average population of the earth during the same period.
They concluded that the chance of one man being born in Bethlehem was one in 300,000, (or one in 2.8 x 10^5 - rounded),
After examining only eight different prophecies (Idem, 106), they conservatively estimated that the chance of one man fulfilling all eight prophecies was one in 10^17.
To illustrate how large the number 10^17 IS (a figure with 17 zeros), Stoner gave this illustration :
If you mark one of ten tickets, and place all the tickets in a hat, and thoroughly stir them, and then ask a blindfolded man to draw one, his chance of getting the right ticket is one in ten. Suppose that we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They'll cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would've had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote them in their own wisdom (Idem, 106-107).
But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation, Stoner used 48 prophecies and arrived at the extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is the incredible number 10^157.
How large is the number one in 10^157? 10^157 contains 157 zeros! Stoner gives an illustration of this number using electrons. Electrons are very small objects. They're smaller than atoms. It would take 2.5 TIMES 10^15 of them, laid side by side, to make one inch. Even if we counted 250 of these electrons each minute, and counted day and night, it would still take 19 million years just to count a line of electrons one-inch long (Stoner, op. cit, 109).
With this introduction, let's go back to our chance of one in 10^157. Let's suppose that we're taking this number of electrons, marking one, and thoroughly stirring it into the whole mass, then blindfolding a man and letting him try to find the right one. What chance has he of finding the right one? What kind of a pile will this number of electrons make? They make an inconceivably large volume.
This is the result from considering a mere 48 prophecies. Obviously, the probability that 456 prophecies would be fulfilled in one man by chance is vastly smaller. According to Emile Borel, once one goes past one chance in 10^50, the probabilities are so small that it is impossible to think that they will ever occur.
As Stoner concludes, 'Any man who rejects Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact, proved perhaps more absolutely than any other fact in the world (Stoner, op. cit., 112).'
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 10:33am PT
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Survival didn't include one very important Failed Prediction:
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Celtics in 7!
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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Examples of Scientific Accuracy in the Bible
By David Pyles
When studying the science of the ancient world, one is more apt to be impressed with its ignorance than to admire its accuracy. However, the Bible offers a definite exception to this rule. The scriptures are replete with statements suggesting scientific knowledge which predates the corresponding discoveries of secular science. Given that Bible writers were not scientists, and given that the scientific information at their disposal was generally misleading, the accuracy of the Bible can only be attributed to the inspiration of God. Here are a few of the more striking examples of scientific accuracy in the Bible:
1) The Genesis account of creation asserts that all humans descended from the same parents, Adam and Eve. There is now considerable debate in the scientific community over recent genetic studies which indicate that all men have a common father and all women have a common mother. In fact, the latter claim is sometimes called the Eve hypothesis. Some scientists are skeptical about these studies, and even those who are supportive would not generally accept the Genesis account; however, Bible believers should expect further research to add yet more evidence supporting these hypotheses.
2) Genesis 10:25 speaks of one Peleg whose name means division. The text then explains that he was so named because in his days the earth was divided. It is now commonly believed that all continents of the earth were once combined into a single continent called Pangaea. This belief is based upon the fact that present continents appear somewhat as pieces out of a puzzle. There are also other evidences, including several geological similarities on matching continental edges.
3) The Bible asserts that the stars are innumerable (Gen 15:5, Gen 17:7, Heb 11:12). This does not necessarily mean that we are incapable of mathematically expressing their number. It means that no human has the ability to count them individually so as to achieve their sum. It is claimed that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy alone. If stars were counted around the clock at one star per second, then it would take over 3000 years just to count these. Add to this the fact that there are as many as 100 billion galaxies. However, there were many scholars prior to Galileo who believed that the stars could be counted, and several attempts were made to do so. Many of these counts arrived at around 1000 stars.
4) There is reasonable evidence that the scriptures speak of dinosaurs. As should be expected, this evidence comes from Genesis, the book of origins, and from the book of Job, generally believed to be the oldest book in the Bible.
First, Gn 1:21 speaks of God creating whales on the fifth day of creation. The Hebrew word translated here as whales is generally translated dragons. It is translated as monsters once, whale(s) twice, serpent(s) thrice, and dragon(s) 21 times.
Second, Job's statements concerning the behemoth (Job 40:15-24) might be referring to dinosaurs. Its tail is compared to a cedar tree. Its strength, and apparently its bulk, is in its loins. It is said to be the chief of the ways of God, and is described as having the ability to drink up a river. No modern animal meets this description in all points.
Third, Job's description of the leviathin (Job 41) very much resembles a dinosaur. Some would dismiss this description as fictitious because the leviathin is described as breathing fire; however, some creation scientists believe this could have happened. The creature would merely need glands to produce a chemical which would combust when exposed to air. The bombardier beetle does in fact have this ability. The fact that nearly every major culture of the world has traditions about such dragons lends yet further credibility to the possibility of their existence in the past.
5) The fact that the earth is of spherical shape is generally considered to be recent knowledge. However, Isaiah 40:22 spoke of the circle of the earth approximately 750 years before Christ.
Other statements in the Bible also indicate that God revealed this truth long ago. For example, David said that God has removed our transgression from us as far as the east is from the west (Ps 103:12). On a spherical surface, east and west are infinitely separated in the sense that one can travel indefinitely in either direction without ever attaining the other. However, Solomon described the wind as blowing in circuits, first towards the south and then turning toward the north. North and south are not infinitely separated as east and west, because a southward traveler on a spherical surface will be heading north after crossing the south pole.
6) In possibly the oldest book of the Bible, Job asserted that God hung the earth on nothing (Job 26:7). The first scientist having this understanding would appear to be Copernicus around 1500.
7) The rotation of the earth was likely revealed in Job 38:12, where God asks of Job:
Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
God asks Job if he has ever dictated the time of the morning or the location of the sunrise (dayspring). As soon as the sun is risen, its light will take hold of the ends of the earth in the sense that it touches all of the landscape, and the wicked are shaken out of it (the earth) in the sense that thieves, drunkards, adulterers, and others who practice their sins in darkness are forced to desist from these activities as they retreat from the light. Also, the beauties of the earth are revealed by the light, and its coloration is made to appear as that of a beautiful garment. Finally, the text asserts that God's command of the morning derives from His control of the earth, which is turned as clay to the seal. Hence, the suggestion is that God regulates the morning by rotating the earth as a potter rotates the clay. Yet ancient wisdom would have asserted that God regulated the morning by control of the Sun, and indeed, this is the perception of any uninformed mind.
8) Paul asserted in Acts 17:26 that God hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth. Until recent times, it was believed there was significant differences in the blood of various human races. We now know that all races of men are of common blood.
9) Psalms 8:4-8 likely reveal the existence of systematic ocean currents:
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is commonly known as the father of oceanography. He was among the first to discover and chart systematic ocean currents. Maury claimed that his research was inspired by Ps 8:4-8.
10) Job 38:16 speaks of springs in the sea. It is now known that there are indeed such springs on the ocean floor.
11) The earliest literature indicating an understanding of hydrological cycle was apparently around the third or fourth century BC. However, the essential details of this cycle were all revealed in the Bible well before this time. This may be seen from the following texts:
The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. - Eccl 1:6,7
For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof: which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly. - Job 36:27,28
It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name. - Amos 9:6
12) It was not until this century that medical science had a full understanding of the fact that most diseases are caused by infection of microscopic organisms. Accordingly, the medical values of sterilization, sanitation, and quarantines were virtually unappreciated. Yet the Bible is so replete with such wisdom that time and space are not sufficient to cover them in paper such as this. Here are some examples:
This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days. And every open vessel, which hath no covering bound upon it, is unclean. And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days. - Num 19:14-16
Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place. But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: and if it be sodden in a brasen pot, it shall be both scoured, and rinsed in water. - Lev 6:27,28
And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean. All the days wherein the plague shall be in him he shall be defiled; he is unclean: he shall dwell alone; without the camp shall his habitation be. - Lev 13:45,46
These considerations, and many other evidences, serve to confirm the necessity of Divine inspiration to account for the wisdom of the Bible. May we therefore concur with Paul:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. - II Tim 3:16,17
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