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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 14, 2005 - 05:32pm PT
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seems like we've all got stories about dogs at the base of crags, on climber trails, and whatnot. most of these are not pleasant stories, but its seems like whenever i suggest that dogs should not be allowed at crags, all i get are situational justifications about how "my dog..." would act.
how do climbers who own dogs consider whether to bring them (aside from legal restrictions)?
specifically, are there any dog owners that would support a ban on dogs at the base of Lover's?
(full disclosure, i hate dogs, or rather they hate me - bitten 3 times, unprovoked. but i'm sure your dog wouldn't do that sort of thing...)
-st
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
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I love dogs, but they have a place, and the crags ain't it. Want to do something fun with your dog? Skip the crags and go hiking instead.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:23pm PT
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My bulldogs aren't allowed anywhere near the crag.Rockfall,distractions,barking,trying to climb the rock; pose extra danger to others.rg
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smidogg
Trad climber
berkeley
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:24pm PT
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I was at Mortar Rock in Berkeley Last week and I saw a Pit bull attack and almost kill another dog that was tied to a tree. The one dog was bleeding profusely from the neck and ears. I estimate no less that 30 stitches.
Both dogs belonged to climbers
Sad
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:28pm PT
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I took my dog to the crag because I could not leave him at home for more than five hours alone. He'd pee on the carpet or worse. My wife was camping so I got to dog-sit. I left him tied to a tree for the day and I rapped down immediately when someone else came near.
I also think it sucks when someone elses dog gets in my way but maybe the dog bothers you because he's a dog? Or does the dog actually do something that is a real danger or annoyance?
Dave
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:29pm PT
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I love dogs, they are great companions, however, if you have no immediate control of your pet (tied up or not) because your 100 feet up a wall, that is wrong.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
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I think the biggest problem is you don't know what to expect from unfamiliar dogs. The other thing is that people can have strange, enmeshed relationships with pets, and expect you to compensate for their dog, like walking around or doing this and not doing that and all of a sudden we're all having to change our behavior over some hound. "You should have known better" are thelast words off the lips of the person punched by someone who got bit by their dog.
I love dogs, have a dog, and he's my best friend, but I'd never make folks alter their conduct in order to allow my dog more freedom.
JL
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:37pm PT
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I have several dogs,& I hate it when people have untrained & unleashed dogs running loose around the crags.It's disrespectful to others.Some people are scared of dogs & can't handle how most dogs say hello.Run up too you bark, & growl, & then want to smell your ass.I understand this & keep my bulldogs @ home.rg
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:40pm PT
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re."specifically, are there any dog owners that would support a ban on dogs at the base of Lover's?
I guess you're assuming climbers should have the right to regulate who has access to the base of Lover's Leap?
I don't bring my two dogs to Lover's for many of the reasons already stated but I wouldn't support a ban. What if a non-climber decides to take his dog for a walk at Lover's Leap. Why should you as a climber be able to tell this person that they're not allowed to walk a dog where you're climbing? Climbers don't own Lover's Leap. It's National Forest land isn't it?
Most open spaces that allow off leash dogs require that they be under voice command at all times. I suspect that's exactly what's not happening when a dog is tied up while there owners are climbing a multi pitch route.
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smokin_nolens
Social climber
California Valley, California
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Jun 14, 2005 - 06:53pm PT
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3 dogs, no kids.
As my ex-landlady once said, "I'd rather have children with four legs, than animals with two feet."
I totally agree that dogs are not to everyones' taste or liking. My dogs are well-trained & well-liked, but I don't bring them along to Nat'l Parks, Wilderness areas, or most public places where they can be a problem.
That said, we have taken them to Yosemite & J-Tree, where they are well-managed and babysat by other climbers, who take the job seriously. I have a huge 'Thank-you' to those that have in the past! We have never left them unattended, anywhere, for anytime. (That tends to attract 'the man', and also, it is cruel.))
When we decided to have 3 dogs, we also made the commitment to have enough land or property to support 3 dogs. Make responsible decisions and stick to them.
Woof!
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 07:01pm PT
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Some dick at the Leap this weekend had his dogs running around the campground rushing and growling at campers (Yes, one dog with one eye, and one with the ridgeback...you know who you are f*#kwad). Then they tied the dogs to a tree near the trail to East wall so that their dogs could lunge at everyone passing, and threaten other dogs. Everyone at the Leap got to enjoy the sound of them barking all day Saturday. As we were packing to leave, one rushed my buddy again in the parking lot. When he confronted the owner, the guy said that he shouldnt have been vibing the dog. Give me a break. Their excuse was that other people had dogs too. All he needed to say was "sorry, Ill make sure to keep them on a leash." The genius never got that the other dogs were at least friendly, leashed, and under control.
Ultimately I feel bad for the dogs...I was able to slightly get to know them (careful petting) and they seemed like nice dogs once they get to know you. They probably really enjoy being out with their masters spending the weekend (though I doubt that dogs enjoy being tied up all day). But all it takes is for them to bite one person and they will get taken away, good dog or not...Or attack another poor dog tied up...or get attached while tied up...or get lost. I would never endanger my dogs like these dildos. I would be devastated if anything happened to them. I leave mine at home and give them a long walk when I get back.
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DOR
Trad climber
NV.
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Jun 14, 2005 - 07:16pm PT
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I would support banning dogs at any crag, period. I have never
had a day of climbing that was enhanced by the presence of dogs.
I climb at Red Rock, and Mt Charleston mostly. The dog issue is
out of control, as most owners completly ignore the rules and regs. reguarding dogs. Let me say that I do not hate dogs, I love them, I have 2 living with my family and they bring lots of joy to our home. That said, I think it would be cruel to take my guys climbing and have to tie them up. It would also be wrong to let them run around. I've been climbing for over 25 yrs. and have reached the point that I don't put up with it anymore. I tell owners, without hesitation, that their animal is not welcome
and any problems or BS with the dog will result in a swift and harsh course of action.
I don't really care about training, breed charactoristics, or any other lame excuses most owners use to explain the dog's behavior. I let the owner know that I have pepper spray, and will use it to keep their animal out of my space. This is how I deal when I was there 1st, if they were there 1st I go else where. This works so well that I have only had to mace one dog.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
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I mentioned in an earlier post that I rapped down when someone came to where I was climbing. I should have mentioned that I was on a 30 foot rock doing top rope solo climbing. It took about 15 seconds for me to reach the ground before the people arriving even got to my dog. I then checked to see if they cared about him. If they did have a problem, I think I would have left.
The dog is truly trame and will lick any stranger or other dog. Or he will just lay there looking sad.
Sorry that some dog owners are jerks. Some people play their tunes too loud at the campgrounds. Some people cuss profusely in front of my child. Some people just suck. That's life.
Dave
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 14, 2005 - 07:28pm PT
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Remember, when any breed of dog bites a person or another dog it will be labeled a pit bull(APBT).Media sensationalism.There are 20 breeds of dogs that look identical to APBT.A recent case where a "100 lb pit bull mauled a 12 year old child over a dog in heat".I feel for this childs family!!But APBT do not weigh over 75 lbs.The breeds standards are 25-75 pounds anything over that will have mostly Mastiff or TOSA-INU blood.APBT are dog aggressive not people.Bad dogs aren't born; they are raised wrong.Sorry for the rant.Please keep all dogs out of the crags.rg
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 14, 2005 - 08:47pm PT
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the real problem w/ climbers and their dogs is that most climbers aren't lucky enough to have my dog...
=)
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 14, 2005 - 08:55pm PT
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bwancy1 wrote: "When he confronted the owner, the guy said that he shouldnt have been vibing the dog."
I was camping in the site next to the 2 guys you mention, and there dogs, and had no problem at all. They were indeed enthusiastic, younger dogs, and it's unfortunate that they were "howling" and making noise, but they were tied up significantly off-trail. No climber or hiker had any need to go near them. In the campground they rambled around a little bit, but basically stayed at their owners' site.
Of course, I had my own dog with me most of the weekend. She's a fairly mellow golden retriever, sleeps on my pack when I'm up on a route, and doesn't make a peep. Would I support a ban on dogs at Lover's Leap? Hell no. It's one of very few crags to which I can take my dog. I bag her poop (just like at the dog park downtown), I keep her leashed when appropriate, and other times let her roam a little, always within sight. If she gets a little ornery, barks excitedly, or starts begging, she's tied up immediately.
Sorry you had a bad experience. It seems that criticizing --with anger-- someone's dog ownership can be akin to questioning someone's parenting. Might make you feel better about having expressed yourself, but nothing is likely to come of it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 09:02pm PT
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Aw bullshit landcruiserbob, Pitbulls are involved in more fatal dog bites than any other breed.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Jun 14, 2005 - 09:19pm PT
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I always try to provoke the dog so I am bitten. In La Canada one dog bit is worth 100K.
Juan
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 09:21pm PT
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Pitbulls should be exterminated and their owners fixed so they can't reproduce. There is no valid reason whatsoever to subject the public to the maulings and deaths. Famous last words, "Why that sweet thing never killed a kid before."
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 09:24pm PT
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So we were dancing around one day in Eldorado canyon circa early 1970’s, Kauk, Bachar, myself, Westbay, Pettigrew, and others. I spot this big ass dog tied up to a pole and decide to go over and pet him. He was tied up with a chain of some sort and the owners pack was with him too. He’s watching me approach, as I get within 5 feet of him he starts to get that look in his eyes. Yea, that look that says you’re dust dude, ha ha ha.
I go oh sh_it and start to back peddle just as he starts lunging for my juggler veins teeth and all in my face. Unfortunately when that beast came to the end of that chain it broke.
He sinks those big ass teeth into my thigh till it drew blood. He then runs off scared as hell because he knew he did bad. Not his fault though as I am the village idiot who went over there where I didn’t belong.
So Bachar and Kauk tell me I should get a blood test to make sure that dog didn’t have rabies. WTF I knew it didn’t. So we all troop down to the rabies testing center and they do their thing. They tell me they’ll call back later with the results.
We go back to the house we were staying and a couple of hours later Bachar and Kauk tell me the animal control people called and said the dog has rabies and I need to get shots and treatment. Holy, moly that didn’t sound good at all and now I’m scared sh-itless. Jim Pettigrew says get in the car and we’ll take you over there to die, Ha ha ha..
As were driving down the road for a while Bachar, Kauk and Pettigrew keep telling me how much my chances of living through this will be. Now I’m even more scared sh itless, untill they couldn't hold it in any longer and they all start busting up laughing their asses off.
That’s when I realized they took me to the cleaners and I fell for it.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Chatsworth
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Jun 14, 2005 - 09:29pm PT
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I was bitten by a dog at 15. The stoner kids down the block sicked it on me. I need stiches in the butt. My dad called the Torrance Police and they impounded the dog. It got sick in the pound and died a few days later. So the stoner kids blamed me for the death.
I used to get beat up by two of the stoners working together. The bigger stoner kid got sent to reform school. I took some bad beatings. When it was one on one I almost killed the other stoner kid one day at school. I choked him into unconciousness. I was trying to kill him.
So I get suspended for a week.
But it was worth it.
That !@#$%^& avoided me all through high school.
Juan
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herm
Trad climber
Bishop
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Jun 14, 2005 - 09:36pm PT
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Do my kids have less right to run around at the crag than a dog?
Dogbites can be serious, especially to kid. Any shift of blame to the child or parent sounds hollow, regardless of the incident.
And, no, having dogs is NOT like having children.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 14, 2005 - 10:21pm PT
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The "Dogs at the Crag's" thread is the oldest trick in the book. Hundreds of posts in threads on rec.climbing, rockclimbing.com and elsewhere.
If we haven't tackled it here yet, might as well make it good. I don't think we're allowed to stop below 100 posts.
let the party begin
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 10:29pm PT
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"Do my kids have less right to run around at the crag than a dog? "
Do your kids bite?
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Mike Ierien
Trad climber
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Jun 14, 2005 - 10:55pm PT
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Funny, I was just at Lover's Leap yesterday and climbed near some good folks who had two nice dogs, unleashed, but under control. Now, I would never support any ban on dogs at the Leap or anywhere else. That said, Lover's Leap is one place that I do NOT take my dogs (I have two large, 90-pounders). Reason being is that I usually do multi-pitch and don't want to leave them at the base (unlike the pinhead who was soloing Travellers and left his dog baking in the sun at the base) as some people get nuts regarding others dogs. I just don't want to get into a fight with someone 'cause they don't like my dogs sniffing their stuff. I take 'em most everywhere else, unleashed and let 'em roam the base. I have NEVER had a problem due to my dogs. But dig it: dogs pee on things, dogs fight, and dogs check other stuff out. Hmm, so do people. Why don't we ban some people at crags?
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nephron
Mountain climber
west, coast
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Jun 14, 2005 - 11:12pm PT
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I carry bear spray, for use on unruly dogs.
its cheap insurance for me, against injury.
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herm
Trad climber
Bishop
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:11am PT
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"do your kids bite?"
-only if ya vibe 'em.....
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shakey legs
Trad climber
san diego ca
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:29am PT
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Who cares if dogs are at the crag how about banning slow parties of three!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:41am PT
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When all diplomatic measures fail, Here's a rather spectacular and effective method
of dealing with very bad dogs. (make sure sound is on before you click--yes, it's workplace approved)
(218 KB MPEG-1 video will download in a few seconds on a dial-up connection)
don't bother clicking unless you have sound turned up!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:44am PT
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Like I said, some folks are enmeshed with their dogs and expect them to be accorded the same rights as humans, and will argue and get all rightious and defensive and so forth about you vibing their dog and all the Tommy Rot. As always, the dog's not the problem, rather the owner who treats others like he should be treating his dog.
JL
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Jun 15, 2005 - 03:43am PT
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As the owner of an at-one-time bad crag dog (famous, really) . . . I have tried very hard to leave her at home, behind, etc . . . sometimes it can't be done. I'm poor, don't trust my roommates, etc.
So, that said, I keep my dog well away from others, secured, and if she does anything to anyone, that person is welcome to do what they must to make them more comfortable. If my dog earns a macing, she earns a macing. If dog owners don't understand their role in the environment, then I have a serious problem with that.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:04pm PT
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Some dogs are fine and the crags some are not.
I brought my old dog since he was a sweetheart and well behaved. Of course the prejudice people would look at him and freak out since he looked like a giant pitbull (though he wasn't) and I'd just laugh knowing he wouldn't hurt a fly (he'd run away from Chihauhuas lol). I don't bring my new dog to the crags because she's skittish and sometimes barks.
German Shepherds were the dogs causing the most fatal bites in the 70s, then pitbulls, and more recently Rottweilers. Big dogs mean big responsibilty because they can kill people. Although Yorshire Terriers and weiner dogs have killed people. Agressive behavior is the result of many factors, including heredity (even litter mates can have completely different personalities), training, if they are fixed, etc.
It's a shame how a few irresponsible dog owners (or irresponsible climbers for that matter) can ruin things for everyone else.
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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:26pm PT
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actually i think most dog bites come from labradors. probably because there are so an of them.
we have brought our dog out with us a couple times climbing , once to Indian rock, once to phantom spires, both times someone was always on the ground.
it doesn't make sense to bring your dog, so you can just tie em up and leave alone at the base. especially at a place like lovers wher you walk off most things.
so to i think the original poster, we think about bringing her if we we are planning on doing pretty much single pitch stuff or bouldering.
we bring her out hiking all the time though, she has way better trail etiquite than soe of the people we see.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:41pm PT
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Hey ouch & dirtbag, sorry if I have offended you with the pitbull dialogue.I do want to give you some statistics though.There are 128 million registered dogs in the U.S.& 60 million unregistered.There were only 17 fatal attacks in 2004.Rottweilers committed 10 of these attacks while the chow had 3, & the Presa had 3,& the pitbull had 1.Registered pitbulls out # the dogs listed above 10 to 1.That should give you an idea on the % break down.
In comparison,the U.S. has roughly 280 million people of which 30,000 people were murdered last year.48,000 people were killed in auto accidents last year.When mans best friend kills somebody, it is big news since it doesn't happen that often!!It looks like we are the problem or at least created them.rg
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Peter
climber
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Jun 15, 2005 - 12:51pm PT
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Man, there were at least a half dozen dogs at the leap last Saturday, all unleashed and yapping away with their owners out of sight and earshot. Can anyone explain to me how to tell which of those dogs are friendly and which post a threat?
If you leave your dog unleashed and unattended in a public place I can only assume that either you are very, very sure that the dog is not going to charge strangers, or you don't mind if it gets it's head smashed in with a rock.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 15, 2005 - 01:05pm PT
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Peter, approach all dogs if they are evil,& never make eye contact.It sounds like you need to get off of the deck @ the leap before you get eaten or at best step in dog sh#t. rg
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jun 15, 2005 - 01:16pm PT
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"Hey, brother, give me two-bits! My dog needs some wine! (If you've got two-bits, give me five bucks, cheepo . . .)" - My Dog is Not a Wino Climber
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Jun 15, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
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Oh yeah, and someone should thank me for scooping up your dog's sh#t that was perched proudly on the trail at the base of Bear's Reach....
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 15, 2005 - 02:02pm PT
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Dirtbag, I agree the gang banging crowd has given this dog a horrible name.They have created their own breeders & sub breed(bully dogs).What they have done is take a bull mastiff(people agressive) & cross it with the APBT(dog aggressive)to create this large headed heavy weight dog with bad owners.I have 2(apbt)& once breed them until the thugs started screwing things up.APBT were breed to be have game,which is completely different than the drug dealing aggressive dog.It's nice out & I hope there won't be any dogs @ the boulders today.rg
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 02:52pm PT
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bwancy1 wrote:
"Some dick at the Leap this weekend had his dogs running around the campground rushing and growling at campers (Yes, one dog with one eye, and one with the ridgeback...you know who you are f*#kwad). Then they tied the dogs to a tree near the trail to East wall so that their dogs could lunge at everyone passing, and threaten other dogs. Everyone at the Leap got to enjoy the sound of them barking all day Saturday. As we were packing to leave, one rushed my buddy again in the parking lot. When he confronted the owner, the guy said that he shouldnt have been vibing the dog. Give me a break. Their excuse was that other people had dogs too. All he had to say was "sorry, Ill make sure to keep them on a leash." The genius never got that the other dogs were at least friendly, leashed, and under control.
Ultimately I feel bad for the dogs...I was able to slightly get to know them (careful petting) and they seemed like nice dogs once they get to know you. They probably really enjoy being out with their masters spending the weekend (though I doubt that dogs enjoy being tied up all day). But all it takes is for them to bite one person and they will get taken away, good dog or not...Or attack another poor dog tied up...or get attached while tied up...or get lost. I would never endanger my dogs like these dildos. I would be devastated if anything happened to them. I leave mine at home and give them a long walk when I get back".
Oh my. I just love it when some totally anonymous guy calls people names like "f*#kwad" and "dildos"
after the fact--from the safety of a secure hiding place--having failed to do so in person. Thanks for the laugh.
Knowing DB, it's probably a good thing you didn't say those words to his face. LOL...
Well, there are two side to every story, and it's probably good to hear the other side.
I will post part of an e-mail below, and relate stuff from a phone conversation from a few minutes ago.
As you might guess, I happen to know those guys, and in fact are really good friends whom I climb with all the time. Needless to say, I have spent a lot of time with both of those dogs. Cam (the dog who snapped) was off-leash in the parking
lot as DB and CE were packing up to leave. Your friend almost stepped on Cam
and Cam snapped at him. DB apologized, but says you (whoever you are) really
escalated the situation while your friend was cool. He also said that you guys had
been around the dogs in camp and that there weren't any problems.
Apparently he almost stepped on Cam and that's why Cam snapped at him.
FWIW, Cam was raised in an abusive situation with the previous owner, and used to be really skittish
around people. While he has gotten much better, I know first-hand that DB is
careful to keep Cam on a leash when new people approach. He has never bitten
anybody, but it's more about not making people uncomfortable or alarmed.
In fact, you are the only person there was a problem with all weekend.
He said that the dogs were nowhere near the trail on Saturday, but were tied up in
the shade between the main trail and the East Wall. From DB's e-mail, posted with permission:
--------------------------------------
Cam and Lola were tied up 150 ft off of the trail and
400 ft away from the base of Lovers Leap, on the
flats. When we climbed the east wall routes it would
take about 1.25 hours. Then we would check back with
the dogs treats, water, etc, before climbing another
route. When we were cragging the dogs were leashed
when other people were around and once they all got to
know each other they were let off. We had no problems
with any other people, just this one guy.
Incidentally, I almost got bitten by a dog that was
running around the base of the Leap. In fact, there
were two dogs running around the base on Saturday
barking and lunging at everybody that passed by. I love
dogs but I think that is unacceptable, these dogs
should have been tied up away from the cliff. If
there are anymore complaints about two dogs at the
leap last weekend I am sure it was these two and not
Cam and Lola. Lastly, there were about 15 dogs at the
Leap last weekend.
DB
--------------------------------------
Edit: (Forgot to mention that DB and CE were done with their 2 routes by noon
and then went 1-pitch cragging elsewhere with the dogs)
In the phone conversation with DB, he said that there were 2 dogs running loose
at the base of the East Wall, and one of the dogs nipped at DB and almost bit him.
There was a lady yelling from above: stop barking!! to one of those dogs,
and a guy was yelling at another dog to shut up. Finally, DB said that Lover's Leap
is one of the few multi-pitch areas where dogs are allowed. He would like to go to
the Valley but dogs aren't allowed there.
I would like to say (HK) that Strawberry has tons of dogs, and Lover's Leap is a dog-friendly place.
If this doesn't work for you, maybe you could try diplomatically talking
to the dog owners if you are having a problem -- being nasty rarely achieves anything.
From where I sit, it sounds like your friend was cool and that you (whoever you are)
were out of line with your nasty attitude and comments..
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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2005 - 03:33pm PT
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like i said, we've all got stories about dogs at crags, and i have zero expectations that there is any possiblity of restriction dogs at the base of Lover's. Being a climber and not liking dogs is like being left handed in a right handed word, ya just gotta deal wit it.
but i am curious... the dominant direction of this thread seems to support the observation that, in general, dogs at crags are not a great idea - for the dogs, the owner, or others.
i relate to what Largo said above. To me it's downright bizarre how dogs get elevated to human status by many owners, and by extension there is some expectation that I like someone's dog or treat them with the same respect I would treat a person. Sometimes I get the impression from dog owners that, if i don't like their dog, it's somehow my issue and not theirs.
i'd be okay with that, were it not for the facts that A) dogs are not human, and B) the presence of a dog (regardless of its training) introduces a degree of unpredictability in any public environment. (Seems like controlling unpredicatbility would be a good thing in a heavy use climbing area, but that's just me barking up a tree.)
question remains, if you take away the sentimental connection between owners and their dogs (and i mean that as a purely hypothetical, internet fourm fantasy world "if"), what are the justifications for allowing dogs at the base of Lover's Leap?
-st
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 03:49pm PT
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DB mentioned that one thing that really annoys him at the crags are crying babies.
I guess I could say the same. It's about acceptance. As annoying as a crying baby
might be to me, I'm honestly glad that the baby is out with the parents (especially climbing!)
and not in some room with a baby-sitter. And earplugs are cheap. ;-)
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Jun 15, 2005 - 03:50pm PT
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At the Leap, dogs may keep the squirrels from eating your lunch.
Although, a bear canister works better, as we carried and stashed on Saturday.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Jun 15, 2005 - 03:52pm PT
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waaaaaaaaa, theres dogs at the crags.... this horse has been beaten so many times. Taking my dog to donner this weekend. If you see a large german shepard approaching, run..
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:01pm PT
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--especially if you hear someone yell:
Sick 'em!...
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:04pm PT
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haha, "sick balls" is the command he knows, wear a cup at the crags...
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:18pm PT
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Regardless of DB's excuses or attempts at distraction, the dogs were offleash and lunging at people in the campground and in the parking lot.
I know first-hand that DB is
careful to keep Cam on a leash when new people approach
Bullshit!! They charged us twice on the trail in the campground...unleashed.
All they had to do is put the dogs on a leash and there would have been no problem. If your dogs lunge and intimidate people, put them on a leash! How can you argue with that? It doesn't matter if we were too close (by walking to the bathroom), or if the dog is a rescue dog, or anything else...if he’s sketchy put him on a leash! Period. And yes, I did make friends with the dogs. I pet them when they came into our camp...offleash still.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:21pm PT
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Bilbo wrote:
At the Leap, dogs may keep the squirrels from eating your lunch.
Although, a bear canister works better, as we carried and stashed on Saturday.
Yeah, but a bear-canister won't keep scumbags from stealing your gear...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:33pm PT
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To Bwancy1:
Why don't you take it up with DB directly instead of making noise about it here?
Do you mind if I give him your e-mail address?
Or do you want to give me a phone # (via e-mail) that he can call?
It's not worth having bad blood over -- and if you have concerns you could tell
him without being an ass. (name-calling after the fact is indeed being an ass)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
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just to get a quick vote in:
no dogs at the crags (unless it's mine)
no babies at the crags
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wildone
Social climber
the little ditch
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:51pm PT
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I agree wholeheartedly with no dogs at the crag. I LOVE dogs. I mean it, they are my favorite freakin' animal, I like most dogs more than most humans, all doogs, big ones, little ones, etc.
Not at a crag.
Babies are ok with me, as I haven't run into the situation, but I doubt it would bother me much.
.02
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 15, 2005 - 04:53pm PT
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I like cats. A cat's respect is earned, and does not compromise it's independence. I don't dislike dogs, but I'm just not a dog person.
What I dislike the most is piles of dog crap left that are all over the place at crags and public parks. Cats bury their crap and clean themselves. Two traits I appreciate in people too :-)
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DOR
Trad climber
NV.
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Jun 15, 2005 - 06:37pm PT
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I've never climbed at Lover's, and frankly "15 dogs on Saturday"
means I probably won't, at least on a weekend.
Why don't people understand that a yapping, whining, barking,
or worst of all unleashed, dog can ruin an otherwise perfect day on the rock! Try taking a dog for a round of golf, or an hour of tennis. Better yet, try taking your dog to the climbing gym. When have you ever over heard a climber say "Today sucked, man. Not a single dog at the crags."
Many folks go to considerable lengths, and expence, to arrive at a climbing destination, only to have a couple of dogs and thier shamless owners stomp on the scene.
I'm left-handed, it's never been a problem for me; nothing TO accept. I'm a climber, but I DO NOT have to accept another climbers dog. I'm not going to bitch behind your back, or stew over your lack of consideration for my precious time on the rock.
I'm not going to be distracted hazing your dog while you lead or belay. Like most other things in life, I'm going to confront you.
I'm going to be very clear about the action I will take if your dog, in any way, becomes a nusience. I'm not looking to make buddies, with you or your dog. That said, 98% of the folks I speak to either leave or the dog is not an issue.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 15, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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Let's hear about the other 2%...
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DOR
Trad climber
NV.
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Jun 15, 2005 - 07:16pm PT
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Well HK, the dog that kept dry-humping on my daughter got maced.
I have pulled the rope and packed my stuff when the whacko pet people became hostile.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 16, 2005 - 01:59am PT
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Dave wrote:
He also said that you guys had
been around the dogs in camp and that there weren't any problems.
Apparently he almost stepped on Cam and that's why Cam snapped at him.
FWIW, Cam was raised in an abusive situation with the previous owner, and used to be really skittish
around people. While he has gotten much better, I know first-hand that DB is
careful to keep Cam on a leash when new people approach. He has never bitten
anybody, but it's more about not making people uncomfortable or alarmed.
In fact, you are the only person there was a problem with all weekend.
which has me thinking...
i have a dog, a very friendly and affectionate male yellow lab, not fixed. to me, he is the best of everything. he is a lover and he's beautiful, he is all wags and licks, unless some toughguy dog wants to mix it up, and then he will hold his ground, but never start anything, and if the other dog starts and then quits or the dogs are pulled apart, he instantly lets it go (just checking, not really into fighting you anyway).
i keep him off leash almost all the time. the upside is that he is used to being off leash and he doesn't spaz out, and he is used to responding to my voice commands (which he does very well, unless he sees a bush that he has never peed on before).
what troubles me about the above narrative is this:
Apparently he almost stepped on Cam and that's why Cam snapped at him...In fact, you are the only person there was a problem with all weekend.
the feeling i get is that it's the guys fault for nearly stepping on the dog...(?) perhaps that was just a failure of written communication, but if you have a skittish dog (kudos to the guy for taking in the dog and giving it a loving home and a better life, and a firey eternity in hell surely awaits anyone who abuses any animal) then you knowingly take an added responsibility when you take that dog to any place where that dog might interact w/ anyone or any other dog. if that dog almost got stepped on, then maybe the owner could have been slightly more careful about where he tied up his dog while he packed up the rig? traffic enters that parking lot from all directions, and you never know when someone will come squirting out between 2 cars or whatever.
additionally, and i wasn't there so what do i really know anyway, but i'll bet that an appologetic reaction by the dog owner would have gone a long way to preventing this story from making it onto the internet! (i.e. "BAD DOG, DOWN! oh my gosh, i didn't expect people to be walking right there or i'd have tied him up to that tree/left him in the car, he was abused as a puppy and he just gets suprised sometimes, he was just frightened, i'm sorry he snapped at you, he really is a sweetheart, it's my fault, again i'm sorry...)
instead what dog owners do is to learn to live with and accept the behavior patterns of their pets, and then internalize those behaviors and defend them as if they were inherant to the animal, like breathing or shedding, and then expect everyone to accept and accomodate the behaviors of their pet as if there were no other option. flatly put- there are other options, and lots of them.
my dog gets excited when we let him out of the house in the AM, and if there sre kids on the sidewalk or older people, i am always scared that he will jump up and try to kiss them on the face (which in those instances could cause harm). he was taught to jump up as a small puppy when it was cute, but 80 lbs later it's just not acceptable. we try to rid him of this behavior, but the only thing we can do is toi admonish him when he does it, so when he doesn't do it it'd not as if we can take him to the park and practice not jumping up...
what is the solution?
in my case, we make sure the area is clear when he 1st goes out in the AM, and we try to watch for pedestrians who might be at risk and make sure we have the dog sit or lie down as they approach.
on the plus side, i had the dog on the pizza dech the other week (on leash), and there were literally 8 or 10 kids petting him at once, as soon as their parens all realized that he was well behaved and that i had him entirely under control. it's just not every dog that you can do that with.
as far as the leap goes, it s nice to have a place to go climbing where you can legally take your dog along. it's not cool to put other people in a position where they are inconvenienced by the interaction with your dog. if your dog is violent, might be violent, or even if your dog might exibit behavior which other people who are not familiar w/ your dog might feel threatened by or might actually be threatened by, then as a dog owner, you need to find a way to ENTIRELY mitigate that risk and/or eliminate the opportunity for others to feel threatened by your dog, PERIOD, or leave your dog at home.
as far as dogs barking, tell the babies to quit crying, the newbies to quit crying, the euros to quit smoking, the sport climbers to quit swearing, the parties of three to quit lagging, the NOLS groups to quit toproping, and the projectors to quit ticking, and then maybe i'll be worried about the dogs barking (not that mine is a barker, but if dogs are legal, when the place gets crowded the dogs will too, and when there are several dogs, they will bark, they are just trying to see if any onf the other dogs want to f*#k, so it's really no different than seeing a whole slew of flowers!)
all that said, when there are a few dogs off leash at the east wall, they always start rinning back and forth along the wall and it is kind of a nightmare, but even so, my dog still wants to make it w/ your dog, especially if she's cute and has 4 legs and a tail.
it's just a shame that everyone doesn't have my wonderful dog...
=)
(mostly joking)
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Jun 16, 2005 - 10:17am PT
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Great post Matt, you said it better than I.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 16, 2005 - 10:56am PT
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toyon wrote:"To me it's downright bizarre how dogs get elevated to human status by many owners, and by extension there is some expectation that I like someone's dog or treat them with the same respect I would treat a person. Sometimes I get the impression from dog owners that, if i don't like their dog, it's somehow my issue and not theirs."
It sounds like you certainly do have issues. How did you add 2+2 and get 5? Dog's aren't human therefore they don't have to be treated with the respect and compassion that any intelligent animal deserves? wtf.
btw.
I feel like the open spaces and national forests are already way overregulated. I can't believe that climbers of all people want to add to this buracuarcy by suggesting more rules and regulations. Be careful what you ask for.
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drunky
Social climber
flagstaff,az
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Jun 16, 2005 - 02:12pm PT
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I am a dog owner, and love her to death. She is well behaved and loves to be outside. That said, I think dogs at crags unattended is wrong. It's probabably why I stopped cragging. Bouldering is way more fun, and I can bring her along. I did say UNATTENDED. If you bring out your dog, just make sure they have a babysitter. After all, you wouldn't leave a baby unattended. Which brings up another point......Taking baby climbing. I think crying babies are just as annoying as barking dogs. Leave society at home....leave the babies at grandma's!
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casey
climber
oakland
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Jun 16, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
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i was out at the leap tues & weds, and there were quite a few dogs at the base. all very friendly, we had no troubles (but i love dogs).
one big thing to consider for dog owners at a place like lover's leap is that there are usually many parties on the wall, many parties of 3, and lots of newer climbers. they probably drop a lot of crap. esp on popular routes that are clogged or looser routes (psychadelic tree was kinda loose). all the dogs we saw were asleep right underneath the routes. i would worry about a #1 cracking my dog on the skull from the clusterf*ck on the line or something.
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Good Morning!
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 16, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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My vote:
No Dogs
(Can we do something about all the climbers?)
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 17, 2005 - 01:29am PT
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regarding babies at the craggs-
i am far more troubled by the though of rockfall (or gear-fall) tagging some defenseless 2 year old than I am about the thought of a dog getting tagged, but that doesn't stop a few mommies from spreading out a blanket and a few dozen tonka toys about 12 feet from the wall buy church bowl or surrealistic pillar...
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:02am PT
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I take my dog to the crags every time I go just to annoy intolerant f*#ktards like the morons here. I've trained my dog to bark at you, piss on your gear and eat your food when you're climbing.
I can't believe how many grown people here are scared of dogs.
For f*#k's sake.
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Weenis
Trad climber
Shastafaria
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Jun 17, 2005 - 11:14am PT
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Some years ago at Smith there were about five huge dogs. Total cluster. Barking, snapping, fighting. The owners all had this "Holier than thou" attitude. The vibe was bad everywhere all day. A few weeks later I hiked into Castle Crags to solo a route and here is one of those mean dogs at the base of the route. Well, at the start of the trail into this WILDERNESS AREA there is ample signage making it very clear- NO DOGS! The climbers were a few pitches up with 3 or 4 to go and their dog starts barking and trying to defend the start of the route. The climbers see everything and say nothing. I hurled up some of my feelings and chased off the dog.
If I hadn't worked with and trained dogs, specifically military K-9's, I might have been a little scared.
If the dog had messed with me it would have been toast. And then I would have told the RANGERS and then I would...
Don't bring your dogs to the crags or Wilderness areas. An altercation could cost you a lot of money, or your dog.
These are beautiful animals, know their limits.
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 17, 2005 - 11:20am PT
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Oooh, and we can't have the "vibe" being bad now can we? That would be just terrible. If something as commonplace as a barking dog is all it takes to ruin your entire day, you must lead a very disappointing life.
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Weenis
Trad climber
Shastafaria
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Jun 17, 2005 - 12:17pm PT
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It takes quite a bit to "ruin my day", dogs barking being the least of it. Self righteous Bloats that are angry at their own lives... well, I usually go solo where I won't find them either.
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BKW
Mountain climber
Central Texas
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Jun 17, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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Friends of mine recently had their dog killed by rockfall in Mexico. She usually ran around wild while they climbed, (no leash laws in Mex.) but this time she was lounging at the base waiting for her owner to return. She was an awsome dog and will be missed.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:20pm PT
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I think this thread is a metaphor for many issues where people are divided on a topic. I've noticed that those insisting on having their dogs anywhere they damn well choose seem to promote the following traits:
1. Selfish. What I want is all that matters, and if you don't have total tolerence for my bidding and my cur, there's something wrong with you.
2. Various degrees of disregard for what others think or feel.
3. Crazy deflections, like diverting the question of having dogs in the wilds, to questions about, or even atacks on, us humans--namely, "your" problems and shortcomings.
4. According dogs human rights in the name of equality to all living things and all that "back room hand jive."
I conclude that some folks simply can't tall the difference between dogs and human beings, and in some cases, have confused the cur for the Joe.
JL
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:29pm PT
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Interesting. I've noticed that #1 is also the trait that seems to be the most commonly displayed by those advocating a ban on dogs.
The thought process seems to be..."I" don't like dogs therefore they should be banned from anyplace that "I" like to visit. Let's have some additional regulations applied to our open spaces so that "I" can be more comfortable. "I" like to climb therefore this area should be designated for climbers only. Selfish.
I still think that dogs tied to the base of a climb while you're climbing a multi-pitch route is a bad idea but I also agree with Blight. If the presence of a couple of dogs somehow ruins your day, you've got more serious problems.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:53pm PT
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It's not the presence of dogs, in and of itself. It's the bad dog owners. Probably around 20% of my contact with dogs at the crags has been negative, and this definitely colors my view of dogs at the crags in general.
Selfish? *I* don't like it when a dog eats my pb&j. *I* don't like it when its running around like a spaz, bumping into my leg, and standing on my rope while I'm belaying. *I* don't like it when a dog growls at me when I walk down a trail.
Yep. Selfish.
That said, I have met great people with great dogs. And I don't support a ban/more crag regulation. And while dogs have annoyed me on occasion, they have not to date ruined my day.
But I'm not sorry at all when there's no dogs there.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:54pm PT
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"Interesting. I've noticed that #1 is also the trait that seems to be the most commonly displayed by those advocating a ban on dogs."
The flaw in this argument: The person who goes to the crag with a dog brings something extra, namely the dog. The others at the crag, sans dog, are not arguing for the right to bring along--and for everyone to lump it--what they don't have (cur). And to call selfish those who do without dogs at the crags is to invert the argument away from your dog bugging folks--to which you don't give a sh#t--to calling folks selfish for wanting to be left to human company.
Another thing is that a dog would never go to a crag on their own (not many feral dogs at the cliffside), so the onus is on the folks who bring dogs to the crag to tell the rest of us why the intrusion is required or desired--beyond the fact that you whan it that way (selfish).
Anyway you shake it, if you bring a dog to the crags you're imposing your dog on others, even if the imposition is only in their heads. If that doesn't matter to you, or worse, if you don't think it should mater, then I fear you're one of those sociopaths who have mistaken dogs for humans.
JL
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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2005 - 06:02pm PT
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example of a defensive person turning a legitimate debate into a ridiculous absolute:
"The thought process seems to be "I" don't like dogs... "I" like to climb therefore this area should be designated for climbers only. Selfish."
funny how often you see that these days...
-st
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:06pm PT
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Here's the thing though. Love's Leap is not designated for a single user group.
Myself and other on this site go to Lover's Leap to climb but that doesn't mean we own the place.
There are familys that live only a few hundred yards from climbers trails. If a person decides that he/she likes to use the trails to walk her Saint Bernard after work I personally believe that he/she has every right to do so.
Alas, there are always people that prefer to solve problems by making new laws and posting signs instead of trying to find a middle ground based on communication. Out of curiosity, how will the ban be enforced? Should we have rangers patrol Lover's Leap on a more active basis? Cameras in the woods? If I can get a hold of a shiny gold badge maybe you'll take the job?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
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Oh yeah -- we were talking about Lovers Leap...
Fact is, many if not most of the locals have dogs. LL is a dog-friendly place.
As a matter of fact, "Billie" (short for Strawbilly) used to have a beer-opener around
her neck -- and was usually there when we needed to pop a cold one, which was
more often than I care to admit. There are good dogs and bad dogs.
I agree that people shouldn't have to tolerate bad dogs. But we do for the
sake of civility. (with the post-incident name-caller above being a notable exception)
But what about bad people?
How about the idiots who go to sleep with a fire going?
How about people screaming at the top of their lungs "off belay! and "on belay!"
People slamming their car doors early in the morning.
Ect, ect, ect.
Should I yell at people to put their fire out (don't worry -- I do)
Should I yell "shut up!" to the Belay-Screamers™?
Should I yell: "Hey f*#kwad, don't slam the door so loud!"
Should I yell: "Hey as#@&%e, you left litter in the squirrel box!"
I put up with a lot of stuff I don't like. We all do.
It's nice to minimize the things we don't like, but a lot of us try to be accepting
of others--after all, isn't that what "diversity" and "tolerance" is all about?
Come on folks, this is Northern California for f*#ks sake!
Let's try to be a little more accepting of our brothers and sisters.
And remember, dogs are people too...
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:51pm PT
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The reason I'm not especially psyched about seeing dogs at the crags is that I've been biten--twice--at Suicide by "friendly" dogs who's owners asked me what I had "done" to "make" the dog bite me. In one case I didn't even see the dog till it bit me. I saw the same thing happen to another climber who proceeded to pound the dog owner into pulp--a disgusting, ridiculous and totally avoidable incident. Now, when I see a dog at the crag I naturally wonder about my legs, and realize I could do fine without the worry and the dog.
JL
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 07:02pm PT
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For reference, I have two dogs and I don't bring them to Lover's Leap. I'm not afraid of them hurting anybody but I know they'll run around playing and making a general nuiscance of themselves. Monitoring the dogs would take my full attention and defeat the entire purpose of heading out to go climbing.
However, other magange just fine and I simply don't support the idea of more regulation. As Dave pointed out, we could make alls sorts of rules for all types of behavior patterns we don't like. I'd rather avoid the police state approach. That's all.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 17, 2005 - 07:06pm PT
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Yikes! That sounds like the worst of the worst. No wonder those dogs bit.
The owners are/were utter freaks, plain and simple. I can see where you're coming from!
On the bright side, there's a lot of money to made suffering a dog bite in today's world.
(especially in tort-happy California)
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 07:18pm PT
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Don't forget though:
"Every dog gets one free bite"
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 17, 2005 - 08:42pm PT
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Even if it is a dog's first bite any decent lawyer should be able to get you 3-5 K for a dog bite in CA. Why should your medical insurance pay for the dog's bite. If it is not your fault let the people know do not get mad get even You deserve the money!
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2005 - 10:37am PT
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What a remarkably revolting group of self-righteous little maggots you are. I'm of half a mind to say something like, "I like watching crybabies at the crags complain about my dog while they litter the deck with cigarette butts and wrappers and leave chalk marks all over the rock" just so I can hear you squealing about how you are perfect and never ever do anything to bother anyone else while climbing.
Okay, so you're scared of dogs. I'm sorry that's ruining your day. Maybe if you tried growing up and not behaving like an insecure 7-year-old then you wouldn't feel the need to control every tiny thing around you.
Oh and could someone please give me directions to where you climb? I'd really like to bring my dog and have a good laugh at you snivelling and cowering at the sight of her while my friends steal all your gear.
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wildone
Social climber
the little ditch
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Jun 20, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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Hey Blight, would you stop being such an asshat, saying people who don't want dogs are *afraid* of dogs? Lame. You're certainly not reading what other people are writing, that's for sure. I love dogs, they're my favorite animals, hands down. I don't like (most) of them at the crags. Lots of reasons. If I wrote them, you wouldn't read them or care, so I won't bother. I've never met a dog, rott, pit, shepherd, etc. that I was afraid of. Sure, when a large dog is being aggressive, I use care in my body language. But I am not afraid. More like "in red mode". I sure wouldn't want to be a dog that bit or attacked me.
But that's nevr been an issue, because I think the dogs can sense that. In any case, just had to chime in in response to your reiterations of, "you people are all pansies, there's something wrong with you, etc., etc.
nothing personal
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 20, 2005 - 01:57pm PT
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Blight wrote: "What a remarkably revolting group of self-righteous little maggots you are. I'm of half a mind to say something like, "I like watching crybabies at the crags complain about my dog while they litter the deck with cigarette butts and wrappers and leave chalk marks all over the rock" just so I can hear you squealing about how you are perfect and never ever do anything to bother anyone else while climbing.
Okay, so you're scared of dogs. I'm sorry that's ruining your day. Maybe if you tried growing up and not behaving like an insecure 7-year-old then you wouldn't feel the need to control every tiny thing around you.
Oh and could someone please give me directions to where you climb? I'd really like to bring my dog and have a good laugh at you snivelling and cowering at the sight of her while my friends steal all your gear."
I think your dog must have bit you--and your dog surely has rabies. Either way, professional help is indicated.
JL
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 20, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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100 posts, here we come...
I ran into CE the other morning at Peets in downtown Mill Valley.
He saw this thread (after I sent him the link) and was pretty amused by it.
He added a couple tidbits of info which I thought was interesting.
Earlier, CE and DB were bouldering at the rocks above the last campsite.
Lola (the dog with one eye) wandered down to the site just below the rocks.
Can you guess whose site this was? That's right, our friends from Davis.
CE walked down and asked the guys if Lola was bothering them.
They said no. Hmmm. I don't suppose this was one of the other two cases of alleged lunging, eh?
If those lunging incidents indeed happened, perhaps someone should have spoken up?
I can only wonder why not, especially after what followed. Double Hmmm...
The other thing CW mentioned was that it wouldn't have
made much difference whether Cam was tied up or not, since the polite guy
nearly stepped on and startled the dog -- he probably would have lunged anyway.
Still, CE wasn't excusing what happened, and he said he would feel bad if the dogs were causing grief.
The funny thing is, CE and DB are really nice guys, and I think this whole
thing could have been dealt with in a more friendly manner.
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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Jun 20, 2005 - 04:55pm PT
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Blight wrote:
"Oh and could someone please give me directions to where you climb? I'd really like to bring my dog and have a good laugh at you snivelling and cowering at the sight of her while my friends steal all your gear."
Blight, (though I really hope you're just trolling, few people are that stupid) I don't know how people handle these things where you live, but if your dog is messing with my gear, pissing or chewing on it or doing anything else to it, I'll kill the dog and kick your a$$. If you try and steal my gear, it will get worse.
For the record, here's my opinion: I love dogs, but they are like small children that have no conscience and can't talk: they should never be left anywhere (in a car, in public or anywhere other people are) UNATTENDED. That includes a situation where the owner is 100 ft off the ground with no dogsitter maintaining below.
You, as an owner, are responsible for their behavior. A dog gets one chance - after it attacks a human, it's game over, no matter how loved. If you can't do it, the law will.
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jun 20, 2005 - 10:21pm PT
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I've ignored this thread til now (dogs vs. cats yawn), but just skimmed it out of boredom. This caught my eye:
...to me, he is the best of everything. he is a lover and he's beautiful, he is all wags and licks...
Dude, does your wife know about this? If your not getting any, talk to the hand.
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 21, 2005 - 05:07am PT
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"Blight, (though I really hope you're just trolling, few people are that stupid) I don't know how people handle these things where you live, but if your dog is messing with my gear, pissing or chewing on it or doing anything else to it, I'll kill the dog and kick your a$$. If you try and steal my gear, it will get worse."
Correctly identifying a troll AND being hooked by it in the same post? Don't think I've ever seen that before!
Oh and good work on the macho posturing. It would actually be quite funny to watch a midget like you trying to, ahem, "kick my ass" (ha ha ha). You do realise that physical threats on a web forum are more than a little ridiculous right?
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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Jun 21, 2005 - 04:21pm PT
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Yeah, pretty silly, I must admit ...
Almost as silly as, say, arguing with almost 100 posts about whether dogs should be allowed at a crag, or threatening to steal another climber's gear as he or she cowers in fear of your poochie.
Have a great day!
And not so bad with the macho posturing yourself, amiga!
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Bilbo
Trad climber
Truckee
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Jun 21, 2005 - 05:23pm PT
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"100 posts about whether dogs should be allowed at a crag"
This is not about: if dogs should be allowed, they are allowed and thats not going to change.
This is about, when you should leave your mutt at home instead of being disrespectful and bringing your dog to a crowded area where it barks, fights, poops, bites, and tramples over ropes.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Jun 21, 2005 - 05:27pm PT
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I just wanted the 100th post because I wanted it. . . this is the most circular, boring thread out there - and done to death. Maybe this one is better, though. I didn't read it.
I just wanted to say: 100th! BOOYA>
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drunky
Social climber
flagstaff,az
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Jun 23, 2005 - 05:16pm PT
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In the end, I find all this talk funny. I just plan on taking my dog where I won't find a crowded area. I mean, where does it end? Loud people, beginners, crying babies, rabid bunnies. I personally feel that it should be declared open season at the crags on hangdoggers, lycra wearers, screaming babies, over-the-hillers(don't they belong at the OLD FOLKS CRAG), faggots, lesbians, oh and George Bush. Shoot'em. Get Real.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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I used to ignore these threads and thought most folks egged the dog on by poor body language, not allowing the sniffing, or getting too close to a baby the dog was guarding, etc.
I've completly changed my mind. Dogs should be leashed at all times when others are around. "He's never done that before." doesn't cut it.
Fair enough, but "I've never had to defend myself and kill your dog until recently when your dog attacked." Look, I'm used to dogs, grew up around large Boxers, and trained them some with professionals. I have friends who have dogs. However, I will kick your dog til it's teeth are up inside it's skull. I will use 20lb rocks to crush the dog's skull in. I may not come out without being severely hurt, but I will sue if your dog bites me. California is a strict liability state. It's just not worth it. Keep them leashed. Voice commands don't work if the dog is already hot to bite (or at least those that aren't police dogs or have equivalent expensive and ongoing training).
Blaming the victim with regards to dog attacks is ridiculous. It's that kind of attitude that tends me toward complaining to land managers about leashless pets. I may make an exception for dogs that I drop kick 20 feet, as there is little real threat of danger, but even a smaller medium size dog can bite and cause harm.
And I'm not even going to raise the issues of allergic reactions to dog dander, crotch sniffing, or pissing on gear.
here endeth the rant and real complaint and warning.
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Fried
Trad climber
Utah
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Why does someone become a dog owner?
* Dog is considered as a status symbol
* Boredom: Owner is unable to entertain himself.
* oafishness: Owner needs an equally stupid partner
* Security equipment: Owner ist too stingy to buy real alarm equipment
* Usefulness: Guide dog, Avalanche dog. This is the exception
* The need to talk: The poor animal has to listen. Luckily the poor animal does not understand anyway.
* alleged animal love: Caring for a helpless animal, which was bred for humans anyway. Thus the animal is condemned to diminish in a city dwelling.
* Compensation: The dog has to make up for the weaknesses of its owner. Therefore combat dogs almost always are owned by idiots.
* Child entertainment: Some parents believe that their children would be bored without a dog. However young people suffer from the obligations they have because of the dog.
Dogs are a spitting image of their owners:
* same characteristics
* just as fat
* just as aggressively
* just as stupid
* just as undisciplined
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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so if you had a dog, it would bark like an idiot then?
edit
i think i just got trolled
/edit
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| Messages 1 - 96 of total 96 in this topic |
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