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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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What's that, sonny? Speak up, ya whippersnapper!
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Balls are balls young OR..... old(but not bold). Just the old ones have more sense now.
Peace
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Hell ya, I got's my hemet..ya dink I'm senile o sumpthang.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Interesting question. But, it may be impossible to tell since there is no clear way to determine relative boldness.
For example, in the Valley, Peter Haan free soloed, on sight, "Crack of Despair" in 1971. At 5.10a, it wouldn't have garnered a mention a few years later, but it was sure bold at the time. Peter led the left side of the "Hourglass" with essentially no protection, on sight, and then soloed the Salathe when it was considered the most committing climb on El Cap. I think Peter was the boldest climber of his generation in the Valley.
But a little later, John Bachar soloed "New Dimensions," a 5.11 route, but only after wiring it. Charlie Fowler free soloed the DNB. Peter Croft free soloed "Astroman" and the "Rostrum."
I can say that all of these climbs seemed really bold at the time they were done. But they all seem more common place today.
It seems to me that boldness is always relative to current standards of difficulty as measured up against the more or less absolute state of death if you fail. Excluding life-after-death scenarios such as believed in the middle ages, you cannot die ‘more-better’ these days as compared to some past period; dead is dead, no matter how hard you climbed up to that point.
In objective terms, the boldest climber is the one that climbed with the highest cumulative probability of dying without actually doing so. By this standard an uncommitted suicidal climber of modest talent might take the prize for boldest. So most of us only laud boldness when the climber does not want to die.
Given all this, I would say that earlier bold climbs cannot be bolder than recent ones, but I am not sure how you can establish that current standards of boldness are greater than in the past: there is not much daylight between almost dying and dying in, say, 1975 versus 2009.
It might be that when you account for the current level of difficulty and the number of active young climbers, boldness is more or less constant.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Absolutely, I will say, the book on balls is closed.
If I may be so bold.
WTF?
Hell yes they are (a few of them); same as it ever was...
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Might 'Boldness' also incorporate the sense of 'cognizance'? I've seen Bold climbers that put on a spectacular show, and Moronic one's (don't have a clue) that look like a bad B-class horror flick.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Back in 1992 I remember thinking that the gym mentality had taken over climbing and that young climbers were only flocking to the sports crags. blah, blah, blah...
Sometime that year, I met a young climber at the Mickey Mouse Wall and we decided that we would climb together in the Black Canyon the following weekend. And so we did, driving to the Black in his van that lacked a fuel gauge. We ended up doing Kachina Wings on Saturday and the Flakes (beginning from the north rim) on Sunday. Well, Mike was the fastest, boldest climber I had every roped up with. To boot, the Black Canyon trip was just a side diversion -- he went straight from the Black to do some climbing in the Alaska Range. I remember thinking at the time that all was well with the climbing world. My young climbing partner was Mike Pennings.
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WBraun
climber
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Ah ... climbers are pussies.
They can do all this so called bold bad ass sh'it.
But! can they take out the garbage?
And they can't quit climbing, now that would be bold ....
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jstan
climber
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In the 70's a friend was posted to Madrid for several years and she said two things. The people she climbed with in Spain were a wild crazy bunch who did it primarily because it expressed how much they enjoyed life. And they were a really enjoyable crew. I thought that pretty well summed up what climbing should be.
In my day one youngster came along and, to me, it seemed he was taking huge risks. Then I realized he was just that good and no one can really estimate the risks another is taking. I suspect, however, if you look at mortality rates you can estimate levels of stupidity.
So, in conclusion, I would suggest the question in the OP - has no content.
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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I think the differences is in the percentages. In the "old" days (pick your time frame) there were less climbers and from that group a larger percentage of bold climbers than what we have currently. These days with gyms and bolted sport routes at every level, there are just way, way more climbers in our community. They learn to climb with little or no risk. Hard to get beyond that introduction. And really little need to if you are so inclined.
Of the current group the percenatge of bold climbers is way down imo.
No question some really bold stuff being done but the safety net is generally bigger as well if you look at gear improvements, communication and training. Boldness goes down and the level of difficulty goes up kinda the natural order of things.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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In my 15 years of climbing I wouldnt call solos of Astroman, common...in the next 15 we wont call solos of Moonlight common either?
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pleasantOs
climber
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yes handjam...Honnold is pretty damn "bold" to put it mildly.
i cannot wait until someone free solos the nose.
will it actually happen?
when lynn free climbed it in a day, it was monumental and bold.
speed demons summon their boldness by climbing it as fast as they can. for some of them it seems so important that it almost starts to consume their life
truly amazing, non the less!
practically super human to the common groundling!
caldwell's back to back free climbing lines are definitely bold.
sharma is bold in the sense that he is pushing the grade limits.
i think "boldness" is definitely a state of mind.
we all can feel very "bold" at times.
spending a long, cold night out in my sea kayak during the longest night of the year in '08 while it was pushed up into the mangroves with creatures lurking about in the Florida Everglades didn't feel exactly bold, but very cold. however, for another person maybe they would've felt more bold by having experienced this same adventure. i feel that boldness seems to stem from prior experiences we've had on the rock, in the water, or the air...any medium really.
even the mildest free solo of 5.easy can feel "bold"...especially if the rock is a bit wet, no?
this boldness stems from ego, which stems from our selfish sense to feel that we are somehow better than average.
when we throw in a little death, i agree, that window of boldness in a sense definitely shrinks.
dying is not very bold, but tragic.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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I'm blown away by Dean Potter and Alex Honnold... and John Long is my hero.... but there is really only one guy, like him or not:
Warren Harding
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2009 - 03:41am PT
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Bold climbers as a percentage of total climbers - '78 vs '08? It's not even remotely a contest.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:06am PT
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Much bolder stuff is being done now, but, since there are more climbers, perhaps the percentage is lower.
in the 70s and early 80s, climbers were competing by bumping boldness, perhaps more so than difficulty (since "training" was sort of a newish concept)
Fact is, it's really same as it ever was. Some folks want to climb hard, some climb bold, but if bold was really that bold, there would have been a lot of dead or crippled people back in the day, or today.
It's not really happening so are we really talking that bold (or is there Karma and a God protecting us from our boldness backfiring?)
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:21am PT
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http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/pearson_claims_e12_on_english_slab/
The hardest traditional route in the world may be a slab climb. The young English climber James Pearson has climbed The Walk of Life (E12 7a) on a steep slab on the North Devon coast in southwest England. At this grade, the route must include hard 5.14 climbing with death-fall potential.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2009 - 09:24am PT
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Karl, Karl, you're so 2008 :-). That route was recently repeated by a guy with a bum elbow, and he managed to place 25 pieces in 50 meters. http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/
Well, I'm not posting again until I get my butt at least 4 meters off the ground (bouldering, that is). For me an' mah brittle bones, that's bold enough!
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:55am PT
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Dig it, Karl, you forgot 1 thing.
Fortune favors the Bold.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:56am PT
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We were saying in the 80’s that climbing had lost out to gyms and lycra. That the “child that wants to eat its mother” had dined finally on the robust but moribund body of historical climbing. It seemed we were heading into a “kinder, gentler” interpretation as sport climbing set up shop and we all took it for a lot of test drives sometimes even in competition with traditional versions of the art. The entire ship of modern climbing appeared at first to turn away from its fearsome rigor and tenets and instead head for a safe and comforting harbor nearby.
Well we couldn’t have known that it never would get quite that bad. It surely did appear this way though. I am seeing that today we still have some of the best minds of a new generation working at seemingly invisible pitches, climbing at such a continuous, hardworking and difficult level that frankly climbing still looks like a religion rather than some sport or past-time played out merely in jest with brightly colored plastics. We have Honnold who clearly is going to free solo El Cap very soon; Sharma putting in 250 ft 5.15b pitches in the hot desert working endlessly while taking enormous whippers; Tommy C’s link-ups and so on.
Perhaps we should wonder if “boldness” is maybe not constant but has actually increased, that it has gotten clearer and sharper than ever in some parts of the sport. In any event, we added tons of climbers in the last 30 years and many of them are a new type of individual amongst us that just sees the game as a safe playful activity in privileged nature. But we have also still been producing the true visionary and insanely hardworking people that carry forward the exact same flame that Pratt and Sacherer ignited 50 years ago--- now ablaze larger and more startling than ever. I think climbing is more spectacular---bolder---than ever before as its history gets richer and richer, knowledge deeper and more cogent than ever before. I think soon it will be “colorful enough” as Sharma says, to englobe itself and hold whole lives for good.
Not to go on too much, but there have been many dead spots in modern climbing history when it seemed of course that “it’s just a mopping up operation now” as RR used to say. (How wrong can someone be??) And interest would flag; fewer climbs were going in and individuals would leave the sport. But we can look back now and somewhat to our surprise, the general curve shows us overall making steady headway through what was the unclimbable and the ultimately fearsome. It continues too; it is so encouraging.
best ph.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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All I can say is, I cleanly fired my first post on this thread from bed, but misgraded the extension.
I did repoint my exit from bed today on the second attempt, solo with a sit start, but had a crash pad under me the whole time.
But, since I only feel young on the inside, and that's when I'm NOT climbing, I don't count.
Peace
karl
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:45pm PT
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I think that boldness comes and goes in waves within regions, so within any region there will be periods during which one bold ascent breeds another -- for a while. Then things quiet down, and old curmugeons with too much time on their gnarled hands start muttering about "no one has balls anymore."
The climbing world extends outside the southwestern US, and there are always insanely bold things being done somewhere.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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I don't know, man.
people were more hard core back in the day.
There were a lot more fights at school, drag racing on the streets at night, this is kind of the Age of the Wimp.
Thin necks and big heads for playing video games and surfing the net. Nobody gets out anymore.
This has the effect of making the guys who are hard core look a little bolder compared to the rest of the crowd.
If you have ten time the climbers, then you only need 1 out of ten to be hard core in order to match up with the hardcore population of yesteryear.
Equipment, I don't think it rally makes a difference as from that aspect, things have remained primitive as ever.
A rope, and metal that you attach to the rock.
You would need a meter on someones brain to measure boldness.
Like David Lee Roth says, you can get the same thrill being ten feet off the ground as a pro who is 1000 feet off the ground, just depends on your level.
OK, lets climb, weather looks nice...
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
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"All I can say is, I cleanly fired my first post on this thread from bed, but misgraded the extension.
I did repoint my exit from bed today on the second attempt, solo with a sit start, but had a crash pad under me the whole time.
But, since I only feel young on the inside, and that's when I'm NOT climbing, I don't count."
Karl, that was priceless!!!!!!
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quartziteflight
climber
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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bolder and stronger. This is still a silly ass thread.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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I have a certain respect for bold but it only goes so far.
Guys taking huge whippers trying to free Eagles Way...Bold.
Yabo soloing at his limit and falling into a tree...self destructive.
Where's the line. How far can you push bold before you reveal yourself as not being healthy to yourself?
Are there folks out there with a death wish and how far should we go to emulate them?
Hard to guess sometimes where bold really is. I've gone out and onsight soloed 1000 foot routes a couple grades below my limit. It was somewhat bold but not suicidal. However, it seems pretty dang impressive if somebody who climbs 3-4 number grades harder than me solos something they have wired 2 grades below their limit. How bold does it feel to them? Don't know cause things change up and down the spectrum.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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There are today, and always will be 'bold' climbers. But it's the increasing dilution factor that's remarkable, and the fact that, as a percentage, fewer climbers are 'bold' with each passing day.
In the relatively short span of thrity years, it has devolved to conform with stereotypical societal (and commercial) proxy / 'hero worship' patterns. We hold up the few climbers as representing the 'boldness' of the whole of climbers and climbing while at the very same time imperatively and overwhelmningly striving for 'safer' climbing for the masses at every turn.
That, on one hand we so want climbers and [our] 'climbing' to be identified with the behavior and achievments of that impersonal few, even while deriding as 'out of touch with reality' those who point our typical personal behavior and climbing doesn't remotely resemble or model what we so ardently advertise to the world at large. The 'Emperor's new clothes' hypocrisy and mass denial of it all is breathtaking in scope.
Which is worse? Climbs held hostage by the bold, or climbing sublimated by the meek.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:42pm PT
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Bold is such a state of mind at that moment.....I've personally climbed my best when dumped by a girl friend or didn't give a Phuck about the outcome. Normally I drag my Phat butt up easy .10s but when pissed at the world I lead .10X and even manage an.11 or hang my way up a .12(Dawg is the actual term). Hard is such a "relative" term, there can never be any comparisons between individuals or time frames.
Bold is bold, but it should be proportional to smart...........grades and time frames are insignificant. My boldest climbing was Knott smart, ( I've been lucky for 4 decades).
Bonatti's solo of the north face on the matterhorn was bold and he quit after that.
Bold should be a personal achievement and Knott a standard that other climbers try to emulate.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:47pm PT
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What f*#king world does Joe live in??
It is absolutely mind boggling what these kids are doing today and it's just not in climbing.
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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"It seems to me that boldness is always relative to current standards of difficulty as measured up against the more or less absolute state of death if you fail.
In objective terms, the boldest climber is the one that climbed with the highest cumulative probability of dying without actually doing so."
First, I think that we must talk about a percentage of people climbing 5.7, 5.9 or 5.11 to compare young in the fifty and young today as more or less bolder. When we compare a climber with and other, we talking about culture, time, and...
Second, I don't think that it is a good measure "the absolute state of death". Nobody, who is sane, climb a route whit a measure of death. I think that a beginner with a 70% chance of doing the route will climb 5.6 and an expert with 70% chance to reach the summit will climb 5.12. So, I think that if you have more knowledge and skill, you will be more bolt.
Finally, I think that the new generation are more people with a very low level of commitment: if they have no bolt, they don't climb or they climb very hard block and cannot climb over 15 meters with a rope.
So, I think that the knowledge of the climber is more superficial than before and, even if some people climb very hard stuff, less people have the knowledge to take calculate risk.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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I changed my mind.
A few people are much more bolder than the folks of old.
Speed Climbers.
They did not have that much back then.
That is the factor that tilts the see saw in favor of today's climbers being more bold.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 10:36pm PT
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""A few people are much more bolder than the folks of old.""
I don't know... I still wonder if Harding, having to take longer, be more inventive, do more work, and really not know if the theories and methods were sound... and having no reference point of anyone doing anything similar... is more bold to me, I think. Even a mind boggling solo from Potter is just a harder version of a thing that Croft did before, you know?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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Bob "What f*#king world does Joe live in??"
Preferably any world you're not currently marketing yourself and or one of your books in as small and limited a world that might be.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:52am PT
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Karl,
From your post it could be inferred that Yabo had a death wish. I never believed this to be the case. He did some crazy arse shite but not because he wished to die; he did it because his mind told him he could. Was he out of his mind? That was entirely possible a vast majority of the time!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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"Karl,
From your post it could be inferred that Yabo had a death wish. I never believed this to be the case. He did some crazy arse shite but not because he wished to die; he did it because his mind told him he could. Was he out of his mind? That was entirely possible a vast majority of the time!"
It's probably true that nobody has a death wish all the time but when I met Yabo he has just beaten himself to a pulp, and he did kill himself after all. If he didn't have a self-destructive streak, nobody does
peace
Karl
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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I checked out that Yabo landing spot up on the ridge when he jumped out of the murder wagon, he had it all planned out there is a trail down there where people hang out.
I changed my mind, the older climbers were more bold because they were baked all the time and had bad equipment.
420 Climbing is horrific.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Joe wrote: Preferably any world you're not currently marketing yourself and or one of your books in as small and limited a world that might be.
Your constant criticisms of newer climbers and climbing is just a reflection on you being a never-was-been. You have done nothing for the sport except whine like a little baby.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:30pm PT
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Dr rock...folks like Kor and Roper were into speed ascents 50 years ago.... Roper was doing the arches car to car in under an hour and Kor did the first ascent of golden wall( I think) in a day and a half.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Speaking of speed climbing, we started a re-hab group after people started losing there teeth called "Climbers on Crank."
Basically we just switched everybody over to The Chronic.
Tell your friends, Jaz music is on the air, Spliff Skankin 3 to 7 every Sunday nite.
Jaz Music is Reggae Music, ......all styles,....... all formats, .......89.7 KFJC.
We begin this broadcast as always, with a performance from Bob Marley and the Wailers, from somewhere during his world wide journeys...
And judging by the clock on the wall, it's that time, that dread, dread time, you know, that time where we at KFJC like to take a pause, it's a pause for the cause, a pause to refresh, and we invite you to do so yourself, and we do hope that you have your refreshments ready.
or online at http://www.kfjc.org/netcast/
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 12, 2009 - 01:57am PT
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Bob: "Your constant criticisms of newer climbers and climbing is just a reflection on you being a never-was-been. You have done nothing for the sport except whine like a little baby."
I don't criticize newer climbers - I criticize what climbing has become as it has become domesticated into suburban society and the continous cost to rock that has entailed. The fact you see no downsides at all in your relentless commercial promotion of climbing comes as no surprise whatsoever.
As for what I've done for the sport? No argument there, I've simply done what I've always done: climb.
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jan 12, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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Interesting, as a climbing history fan this is a good question.
As a youngster myself, and growing up around alot of young and old climbers. I've noticed that thery aren't as bold.
Of coarse you have your extra ordinarily good- climbers "that can hold on to very small holds" .. but it seems there just number chasing. Thats cool and all, everyman to his own.
But looking back when guys were putting up crazy stuff. like ~hang dog flyer~ and ~1096~ all on passive pro.. o..and in swamis and rr boots. ;)i love that pic
THEY ARE MOTHER F#@ken BOLD.
Yea kids do that stuff now.. but its all repeat. With certified and tested mechanical gear... The entire route topo-ed to sh#t on which hold to grab and what not to grab.
So no young climbers are NOT as BOLD as they used to be.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Up thread I attempted to make the obvious point that no one can actually tell how bold another person is being on technical rock. You really don't know how great that person's reserves and abilities are. In alpine climbing where a change in weather can determine everything, boldness is a little easier to get a handle on.
I would like to expand a little on my comment the OP "lacked content." Since boldness can't be known the question has no answer and is not a real question. In fact asking this pseudo-question may be destructive. We have a lot of real questions to which to find answers and if these pseudo questions drive wedges between us, our ability to talk about real things is diminished.
We need to grow larger and to focus on real things.
If we become fascinated by "boldness" we will have inadequately prepared persons paying very large prices. Taxpayers may become unwilling to see public lands used as vehicles serving someone's desire to spend their lives as vegetables all paid for by the taxpayer. Your father is not wealthy enough to keep you in-hospital for fifty years.
Read the newspapers. Considerations of this sort have only just begun to increase in importance as regards public policy.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Jan 12, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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Wow! We waste a ton of time "debating" some really stupid things here. What would be really bold is debating something worthwhile rather than some folks attempting to put others down to stroke their own egos.
Just so you guys know, all of the old, old guys I've hung with, like Beckey, think the generation that came after them were less-bold wankers too. Of course, that generation thought the next lacked "boldness", etc. How many feet of snow did you walk through, uphill (in both directions), while barefoot, to get to school again?
If there was no boldness in the sport we'd all still be working towards sending Crack of Doom, as the hardest valley climb. There would be no .15b, nor .14, .13, etc. No climbs in Baffin, no one sending your hard routes on The Captain that took you 5 days (or more) in 24 hours or less, nor a huge block of the boldest, hardest aid routes in the valley and on The Captain, no one free climbing routes on The Captain that you had to aid, no one soloing things that most of you couldn't climb, in your prime, etc. We could go on and on.
The whole gear and safety argument is just foolish. You guys wouldn't have climbed ANY of the sh#t you did without improved gear technology. Maybe we'd be super bold if we were still leading Nutcracker with nuts, rather than putting up .14 crack routes with cams, right?
It's funny how things go on this site. Here we have guys from a previous generation saying the folks from the current generation aren't bold... A thread which stemmed from another thread, wherein people from that previous generation were arguing that climbing on pre-placed gear was bold as f*#k and that regardless of the fact that they'd aided each pitch prior to climbing it free (with pre-placed pro) and spent 3 months on the route, they were SO much more hard than a guy who climbed one of the pitches on TR prior to leading it on gear. Funny thing is, most of the non-bold, wanker climbers from the current generation would pretty much consider climbing on pre-placed aid placements (every 4 or 5 feet, from the looks) a wanker move and pretty much equate it to outdoor gym climbing. The *real* irony is that the generation who's calling us out would bag on us for days on end if one of us sprayed about sending a route on pre-placed gear, after we'd aided the pitch, and called it a ground-up, onsite free pitch, let alone if we called it bold.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Jan 12, 2009 - 02:24pm PT
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Guess I was born into the wrong generation...whatta shame...I coulda been bold!
Too bad all the rad sh#t was done before I was born...that being said, I like reading about it...
EDIT: well said Nef...
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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I think this question is very egocentric. It hints that the past might have been more glorious than the present. The fact is the past and now are the same.
AF
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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Sure... And, yet they are both moving forward, which means tomorrow will be more advanced than today and today is more advanced than yesterday... So, the same, and yet not the same.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 05:50pm PT
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" .... the past and now are the same."
How's that work? In the past you once were a little girl.
Now you are a woman.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
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Jan 12, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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"""Up thread I attempted to make the obvious point that no one can actually tell how bold another person is being on technical rock. You really don't know how great that person's reserves and abilities are. In alpine climbing where a change in weather can determine everything, boldness is a little easier to get a handle on."""
I agree... and that's point one.
Point two... I think... is the copying versus inventing... like I have been bringing up. For instance... I was just watching the Dog Whisperer. Once he shows people what to do they do it quite easily.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 12, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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" .... the past and now are the same."
How's that work?
C'mon Werner, you of all people know the answer to that one.
As it was in the beginning,
Is now,
And ever shall be...
Climbs without end.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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Hahaha ..... are you sure?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 12, 2009 - 06:19pm PT
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Hahaha ..... are you sure?
When I was younger, I was bold, and sure of many things. Apparently now that I'm old I can't be bold any more... So how can I be sure?
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:29pm PT
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Everybody is bold and cowardly in different ways. If we belittle someones courage, we just don't understand the challenges that they face. Or, we are just in the mood to give them a hard time.
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nevenneve
Trad climber
St. Paul, MN
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Jan 12, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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I think that the only comparison that holds any water is that the truly bold ones tend to stay outside of societies grasp. Whether it is omnipresent recording devices or whatever the collective "you" avoided before becoming old dads. That said I rather liked Werner's assertion that quitting climbing would be bold.
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dgbryan
Mountain climber
Hong Kong
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Jan 12, 2009 - 10:48pm PT
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Climbers were bolder BITD.
The bold climbers of old were as bold as the bold of today. Sometimes they were drunk, high or fat, which meant that the absolute level of their accomplishment did not match that of modern, bold climbers, but the boldness did.
Mostly the not-so-bold were also bold. This was partly because there was not much alternative.
I was also bold. Or at least bolder. This was primarily because my rack, which I shared with my friend and climbing partner, consisted of 12 pieces of passive pro, including a MOAC I had found and #1,2, & 3 Chouinard stoppers about the size of my little thumbnail, which a friend of the famly had brought back from Canada. Such boldness as wasn't attributable to my rack was basically down to stupidity, although to be fair, I climbed enough that it was reasonably well-informed stupidity.
Some of the not-so-bold were old, and to be honest, they really were not-so-bold. On the other other hand they could drink prodigiously, and did so. I myself progressed quickly from moderately bold climbing to drinking 22 pints of Guinness in a single afternoon, and you don't see many young people doing that nowadays. On the other hand, my heroes were the likes of Whillans and Barber, and I think there are no comparable contemporary role models available today.
Leaving aside the whole issue of sport-climbing (which is quite good fun) better gear has has obviously allowed the bold to operate at a higher level of absolute performance, and it is trite knowledge that the bold of old would be doing exactly the same thing if they were alive / active today.
However better gear has probably made it harder for the not-so-bold to be as bold as they once were. When the gear goes in pretty much everywhere, and you own enough of it to put a piece in at body length intervals (and I am only 5'8")it takes a lot of willpower to be bold. And you don't develop that by spending your youthful afternoons downing 22 pints of Guinness.
The result is that your testicles get smaller, and I have noticed a directly inverse proportion between these and the size of the gear shed out the back.
As an aside, it seems likely that better gear has also made it possible for more of the not-so-bold to remain on the fringes of the game, decrying the death of boldness and wasting their employers' time writing stuff like this.
Perhaps completely unrelated, but I have elected to begin 2009 with a beard, which I last had BITD, when I was bold(er), and I am wondering if this will reverse some of the decline.
Damian
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Jan 13, 2009 - 02:36am PT
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Einstein’s Theory of Relativity demonstrates that time is an illusion and nothing is really separating us from the past or future. We are all intrinsically connected, related and exist always. We are neither dead nor alive. We simply are: different and the same, spawning colors in a gigantic universal kaleidoscope.
Plus if you believe in the soul, no matter how my body changes... Does my soul change or is it only becoming aware?
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Jan 13, 2009 - 02:52am PT
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Anastasia is right. Time is relative.
You can prove it, just remove the B in Bold from the Thread Title:
"Are young climbers as old as young climbers used to be?"
See?
BTW, Einstein dreamed Relativity.
At least that's what I heard on NPR this morning.
Same with Howe and the Sewing Needle, which started the revolution that we are leaving, and China is beginning, but I digress.
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Jan 13, 2009 - 10:47am PT
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wow... thread drift...these ..bold old climbers...must have taken some old acid, once or twice.
but yea u guys are all right. everything, is relative to your own personal perspective.
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Jan 14, 2009 - 12:34am PT
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Nefarius, I understand your point of view. Before, in a crag, people discuss about security and daring. Isn't it the definition of boldness? Today, they talk about the last shoe or piece of equipment. In phylosophie, Socrate I think, said: "do the same and a little bit more".
In this discussion, what is "a little bit more" a climber can do today in comparaison with the climber before to be bolder? All was pratically done by the early 80th.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 14, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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jcques, I think I may agree with you in a narrow sense but I am not sure. I believe that 'boldness' is relative to the times and what is very bold in one era can be common place in another era. Maybe this is what you mean when you say that "All was practically done by the early 80th.
But I don't think that that supports any notion that prior generations are bolder than current ones. Boldness drives our sport and certainly current levels of boldness are at a much higher difficulty standard and are more spectacular.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 14, 2009 - 11:24am PT
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If a 3rd class of the Reg Route on Half Dome doesn't peg the bold meter, then what will it take?
But what I don't really understand is why anybody would be into comparing "boldness." Young folks are doing stupid crazy things these days to prove they are part of the Mt. Dew generation. And lots of folks are plenty f'ed up trying to show how cool they could have been.
Personally, I climb for myself, and if I do something that I consider bold, then that's for me. I've gotten hurt too many times trying to do bold things to impress others.
[edit]
In the copy from the link in the OP: "He had worked it on toprope, then fired it first go unroped." Then the photo caption shows the unroped ascent with a caption: "... on the first ascent of Ambrosia."
I'm not saying that this isn't proud, but a headpoint of .13a highball is boldness news? Do it for yourself man....
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jan 14, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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They do not free solo as much as we used to. So in a sense they are little girls. If you have not soloed North Overhang or Flower of high rank you might as well find a new hobby.
Juan
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Jan 14, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Roger Breedlove. By boldness, I think about brave, not afraid by... When Hans Dulfer used his technique (layback)to climb diedral, I think that he was bolder than the other man of his generation. He did the same and a little bit more than the other. With his technique, he was able to open a lot of route that other can not. He was not afraid where other people turn back because he mastered his technique.
Today, few people can climb a 5.13 on sight. They repeat the route as many time they can to be able to make it. I think that older climber did that on a regular basis at the higher level for the era they lived in. They was not bolder, they are just good climber.
When you tell that a climber his bolder, you also means that other are not bolder. Where is the limits between those climbers? I just said that before it was easier to discover new technique to climb more scary thinks because a 5.7 layback or a 5.14 layback is still a layback. It is just the size of the hole which are different. A climber of 5.14 can: be lighter, have more skill, etc, but if he is afraid by any uncontrol situation (a run out for exemple)...I don't call him bolder.
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