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Erik of Oakland
Gym climber
Oakland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 12, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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planning a long, multiday (probably three-day) ridge traverse in May, staying on the crest (about 13,500) for the entirety.
Given we'll be climbing with big, overnight packs, along with rope, rack, etc., what is the etiquette for shittting? And what would the etiquette be for a really long trip (e.g. the Paliade Traverse), that might take more than a week?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Dec 12, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Sierra smear would be my choice (given your "we'll" is only two or three people).
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Where are YOU from?
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Dec 12, 2008 - 01:40pm PT
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And be sure YOU lead!
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snakefoot
climber
cali
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Dec 12, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
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whatever you do, do it with style....cover your tracks....
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adam d
climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2008 - 02:12pm PT
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definitely don't smear it. That's on the LNT sh*t list. Even up high, bury it if you're not taking it with you.
High use alpine areas need a poop plan (like WAG bagging at Iceberg Lake below Whitney/Russell). Probably more candidates for this sort of management.
Sometimes a mud falcon high on a route is unavoidable though...
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dfinnecy
Social climber
san joser
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Dec 12, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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What is the LNT sh*t list? I always thought the smear tech sounded pretty good and primaly satisfying in a 2-year old in the nursery way?
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adam d
climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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LNT sh*t list as in, not the most leave no trace technique to plaster your crap all over some boulder.
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dfinnecy
Social climber
san joser
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Dec 12, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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Ahh, LNT = leave no trace. Got it.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 12, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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Fecal Management (a new department in Dept. Homeland Security) is pretty dependent on the situation. Definitely, the ideal is to carry it out- truly LNT- which may very well become the singular option, as human impact in the backcountry increases.
For now, short of that, cat-holing or smearing are still options (for small groups), if used in the right places. If there is lots of organic material around (generally well below treeline), cat-holing is probably the best option. At or above treeline, where little or no organic material is present, cat-holing is probably going to result in a preserved turd that breaks down very slowly, and risks percolation or flushing of bacteria/viruses/protozoans into the groundwater. Nonetheless, this might still be the best choice if you are in an area where there are lots of people around.
Smearing is an effective technique, but obviously very unaesthetic. Having done a little High Sierra field experimentation myself, it does work pretty well- a properly-placed turd (yup) will dessicate and blow away within about 2-3 weeks. Extreme care needs to be paid to location- south facing, little/no risk of the stuff washing or blowing into any kind of water source, and virtually no risk of someone else finding the mess. Mid-summer is about the best time to consider it, when days are long and rain is less likely. This technique probably only makes sense on very remote cross-country routes that are not commonly travelled (or known to others).
Just my sh*tty thoughts.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2008 - 10:20pm PT
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wag baggit-with kitty litter or something...
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adam d
climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2008 - 10:48pm PT
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I know many places think the schmear is an appropriate option. Personally, I haven't done it for a long time.
The idea is you smear the poop thin enough that it is cooked by the sun, flakes off and blows away. Are the microbes really killed through this? Did you smear it thin enough? Where did that poop blow? (in the river/lake in the bottom of the valley).
Granted N. Cascades are different than the Sierra, but the NPS there says no smear.
http://www.nps.gov/noca/climbing-2005.pdf
Maybe reasonable in extremely remote areas, but I'm sure bummed when I find someone's crap wiped everywhere.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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Dig a hole and bury it, WTF. Who carries their sh#t with them other than than the obvious respondants.
I thought the rule was burying is cool if done right. Carry a small sh#t shovel. Bury it. Nature takes over. I wouldn't pack crap with me, c'mon, be realistic here.
It's easy to say just put it off your pack, but...dude dig a discreet hole, bury it, move on.
What would John Muir do? Does a Muir sh#t in the Sierra? You betcha!
I think you guys take this LNT sh#t too seriously and to unreasonable extremes. Don't leave trash, of course, but bury your crap somewhat deep. Maybe pack out the TP.
Sheesh!
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adam d
climber
CA
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
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blue...I'm with you 95% of the time, but some high places just have too many people and too much sh*te to leave it all there (kinda like the taco sometimes...more than a few folks would have been better served by packing out their posts at times)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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Yeah, you can't dump on top of Cathedral or something, you have to be discreet, where you can actually bury it. Most of us have good judgement about where to bury a dump. Hold it until you find a spot!
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tinker b
climber
your local park
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:13pm PT
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lnt says no smear because they are teaching this to the masses and were finding smears in all the wrong places. above treeline it seems pretty damaging to dig around, and not that much in the way of organic material, i still smear...follow everyone else's advice, out of the way, southfacing, away from water sources, and waterways, really spread it...plan ahead, good enough happens when you are peaking. snow prohibits digging, and digging in tree wells is not so good for the trees (or so i have heard). i have packed it out in snow. a good system is well worth it (i have used some shitty systems, not so fun.) wag bags work well...get the air out before you close the bag. be careful out there.
remember all snow becomes water.
peace
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:20pm PT
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Smearing sounds like rationalizing that you're doing the 'right thing'. You still have fecal matter on the surface, no? That's disgusting.
Maybe I'm missing something about 'smearing'. Just dig a fuking hole and bury it!
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:22pm PT
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If we don't poop in the woods today...we deny untold numbers of future archaeologists the thrill of finding a 21th century coprolite.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:24pm PT
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"look at this nugget I found!!!"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 12, 2008 - 11:30pm PT
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Alright, seriously, if you are on ridge traverse and cannot find a place to bury 6"deep in a discreet locale off the route, maybe a wag-bag should be considered. Maybe bring a couple. Hold it as long as possible until a 'bury spot' is found off trail. If not, use the bag.
Happy? How many people are on ridge traverses in those conditions? Not a lot. That makes the 'under-Cairn' surprise a legit option. Hell, in places like that the weather cleanses the joint every year.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 13, 2008 - 12:54am PT
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Those of you who comment to the effect that these various sh*t management techniques are disgusting and over the top reflects that you probably don't travel into heavily used backcountry areas much. Either that, or you are the source of the TP I found under rocks, blowing in the wind, or floating along the shore of some heavily used backcountry lake.
Smearing is definitely NOT appropriate for front- or mid- (?) country locations (i.e. most commonly used JT crags, TM & Cathedral Peak), since the risk of 'discovery' is unacceptably high, and getting into a well-treed area is oftentimes a viable option, or just hold it until you get to one of the world-famous JT sh*thouses. In truly backcountry areas, well above treeline (where burying basically preserves the turd), and where the likelihood of another human following your path is extremely remote, it just might be the best option.
The choice of technique is highly variable, according to the specific environment you are in, and the judgement & experience of the person (and just how badly you have to go). It should come as no surprise that the NPS would advise against smearing, since their public recommendations always are aimed at the lowest common denominator.
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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Dec 13, 2008 - 10:00am PT
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I am pretty much a bury kind of guy. I do go for the high and far rule of thumb (get off the beatten path). On a recent trip to Red Rocks I was amazed to see full wag bags in a few areas, at least 4 in the Kraft Mountain bouldering area. I would much rather see a pile of sh#t than a bag of sh#t. What is up with that practice?
Prod.
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Dec 13, 2008 - 10:27am PT
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The smear is cool in the right backcountry local,let the sun do it's job. burying lets the turd fester to contaminate at a later date (i.e. high ground water-snow melt),In winter try a poop bomb, mini version of wall tube, on longer tours find a good sunny spot to smear, to lighten your load. Happy pooooping!!!!!!!
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Dec 13, 2008 - 11:37am PT
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"3 day ridge traverse with full packs"? Oh really.
(Expect full trip report, complete with pooping details I'm sure.)
Personally, I don't think I could eat enough to get rid of much on a trip like that. The couple of little tiny things that might come out would wind up under a rock, as far off route as possible.
If I was a big pooper, I would wag bag it, and I would buy them in a kit, not try a home made version that would probably leak.
Thread drift Poll: how many of you gals use tp when you pee in the woods? What do you do with it?
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Michelle
Trad climber
El Frickin' Paso
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Dec 13, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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this is simple. take a bunch of immodium. don't sh#t.
julia - no tp in the back country, drip dry. easier that way. for other uses of tp, I burn it usually.
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nature
climber
Somewhere else....
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Dec 13, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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sierra smear.
I used that technique out at winslow wall. I'd go out there ever weekend for a few summers in a row. I visited the same spot every morning. I was amazed that when I went back the following week there was no sign of my "being" there.
it dries up and turns to dust. the wind takes it away.
Flat rocks in place of TP...
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Dec 13, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
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Used to smear the crap into neat pictographs in the alpine high. Started carrying a small pooptube, and it does well at taking ALL of the waste out, even the wee bits of snack wrappers.
We don't need more Scratch-N-Sniffs in the Sierra!
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apogee
climber
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Dec 13, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Scott Wayland
climber
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Dec 13, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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I bury and pack out all TP. I generally avoid places like Whitney and such that are so crowded you now have to pack out yer own poop. Pretty dang gross, but I understand why it's needed. I'm not exactly ancient (46), but it sure has been a drag to see how impacted so many places have become. Lovin' it all to death (poop).
It's been great to live until this age, but it's been a bit sad to see the passing of so many freedoms. I've seen the closing and regulating of so many free, wild camping areas. Many posters here remember the free off-season Camp 4 days, the endless hangs in Josh, the free, open-ended camping at the Leap. My first trips to the Canadian Rockies featured all kinds of free camping--Cougar Canyon, on the creek below Edith Cavell, Yamnuska--all history now! Regulated, closed, FEE'd. Now even your poop is regulated. CRAP! What's a guy to do?
Scott
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Dec 13, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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I agree with Adam..I believe LNT changed there positon of the smear....Saying that it ends up streading the bacteria into a larger area.
Leave it in a pile... I guess
Please pack out your TP. Don't burn it...it never burns all the way.
I like the Sh*t frisbee....if there is no WAG bag or soil you can find.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Dec 13, 2008 - 09:22pm PT
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Use the LBP.
Worked for me, Special Forces, Nam, 68, there we were, Charlie Company clears the ridge with a whole regimen, would have sh#t my pants without the LBP.
Soon as you sh#t, Charlie is onto you like white on rice.
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Erik of Oakland
Gym climber
Oakland
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2008 - 11:47pm PT
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this may come across the internet as sarcasm but it isn't
I worry about Charlie. A lot.
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