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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 6, 2008 - 08:47pm PT
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So I'm checking out button heads on line and I come across this statement...
"The classical anchor that made a revolution in the sport climbing world."
What does this mean? It doesn't make sense to me.
In other news, when did you place your first buttonhead?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Pictures at an Exhibition (5.10-), Split Rocks Area, Joshua Tree, 1977..........
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Where are YOU from?
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Heading for Oblivion, on the 2d ascent. Just at the anchors. They needed it.
5/16 buttonheads Rock!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Early 70s, above and to the right of the third pitch of Rock On at Squamish. We thought the fourth pitch would go that way, but it didn't. I thought drilling a bolt hole would be easy, but it wasn't.
We had something of an adventure in an attempt to get back to earth by traversing rightward, and the half-drilled hole is probably still there.
Next attempt at drilling was more successful, in that I actually got a quarter-inch split-shank buttonhead (with a Leeper hanger) placed, somewhere on a pointless variation to an old aid route called Shadows, on a cliff right above the Squamish highway.
Edit: As to the thing that revolutionized sport climbing, I thought that was the Bosch Bulldog.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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1982 on a granite rock in the Santa Ana riverbed behind my childhood home. Had just gotten my first RAWL holder and was anxious to try it out.
Thousands of bolts later I'm still at it.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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It is just too far back in time to be sure, but it might have been the second or third bolt on Loose Lady at Josh around 75. There have been lots of 1/4 and 5/16 inch button heads in my career. Probably most of the 5/16 inch ones are still good 20 years later.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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My first 1/4" Rawl compression bolt was in autumn 1974, at Squamish. Something Carl A. and I were trying at the Malamute. Long gone. Probably not a button head, but I can't remember.
Later I'll post a horror story on the Squamish climbing thread about exploding button heads.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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1976/77
Me and Larry Loads out on new route patrol.
Some choss crag off a road, (road has since washed away), in the San Gabriel Mountains, SoCal.
Total spinner, 1 inch long split shaft with the stupid nut: formed a one bolt anchor from which we bailed.
Old-school regulation issue quarter-inch by inch and a quarter button heads are way bomber!!!
(For a little while; maybe 10 or 20 years)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2008 - 02:21am PT
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good stuff, keep it coming. this stuff fascinates me.
Roxjox, no doubt. They definitely revolutionized climbing.
But I'm wondering how someone would assert that they revolutionized 'sport climbing'
sport climbing as a gym born phenomena didn't happen til we started seeing gyms produce sport climbers really. there must have been some point of critical mass. gives me an idea for a new thread.
but I digress, sport climbing seems to be after the hey day of buttonhead bolts used for free climbing.
anyone have thoughts on this?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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5/16" x 1" button heads at the top of Peter, Peter Fairview Dome, Tuolumne Meadows (probably replaced the 1/4" x 1" bolts place by the FA).
These were very easily removed
though they looked in pretty good condition.
Now there are two SS 3/8" x 2.25" Anchor bolts
the bolt fairies sure do get around...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2008 - 04:07am PT
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that's downright pretty Ed.
noyce
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Chris2
Trad climber
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I remember the first buttonhead I saw out of the rock. I could not believe how long I had been clipping into those things! I am sure, when properly installed, they were bomber at first but after many years....damn scary!
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
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Never placed one but I used to whip all over them in Arkansas in the late '80s.
I also hauled off the suckers.
Over the final roof on the Nose, dark, no headlamp, fumbling around on the slabs. I found what seemed like a stance and felt around 'til I found two old-ass 1/4"ers with Leeper hangers.
I clipped in, set the haul and yelled down to my partner to definitely not cut the pig loose, as I thought the anchor might blow. He cut the pig loose. I experienced a sharp rise in blood pressure and heart rate.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Rokjox,
While replacing bolts in the area in 2007, we found an un-named route between "Mid-life crisis" and "Reefer madness" that went all the way from the base to join "Greasy but groovy"s last pitch. All the bolts were 1/4" so they were replaced. I called it the "Mystery Route" Maybe someone finished your route for you. I have the bolts and hangers around here somewhere. I will dig them out and see if they are button heads and what kind of hangers are on them. Maybe another piece of the puzzle has turned up :-)
Roger Brown
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Never, they seemed obsolete when I started placing bolts, in 1972.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Obsolete? I still use them to this very day. I've found nothing better for stance drilling in a hurry. Perhaps there's something better... do tell.
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Burt Bronson
climber
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MEN, BRONSON HERE.
1959
THE COMPRESSOR ROUTE
PARQUE NACIONAL LOS GLACIARES
PATAGONIA, ARGENTINA.
BURT BRONSON
THE LAST BASTION OF THE SERIOUS CLIMBER
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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BURT, didn't you pull those with your teeth on your free solo ascent/downclimb?
Sal, they definitely have/had there place, I was never in the situation where I was in, that, much of a hurry. For sure easier to get bite with crowbar on...
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nudge,
We run into those from time to time. It is a sad day. They almost never come out in one piece. So do you drill the new hole closer or further away? A few inches on either side in some cases can make a big difference. We found three routes last summer with all the bolts the non-removable type like you show, two of the routes were stainless steel. Only one bolt came out in one piece, and the stainless broke much easier. The buttonhead is a good bolt, the newer ones are really solid, and all of them are replaceable. Just my two cents :-)
Rokjox,
The mystery route was probably not yours. 40+ bolts, all were fat SS SMC hangers, drilled deep, (Power drilled-Late 80s?) and pretty much a straight line from top to bottom. The only thing matching your post would be "Mid-Life Crisis" Leeper big biner hole, Leeper small biner hole, and thin SMC hangers. All bolts were button heads. Route was put up in the 80s. Funny thing, there was stuff on my fingers after handling the hangers today that was like soot. The hangers looked like they had been painted black at some time. They couldn't still be dirty from the fire after all these years could they? That would be pretty wild!!
Roger Brown
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Placed my first buttonhead on Future Shlock at Williamson Rock in 1984. I later moved on to bigger stuff thus my spiral into the degenerate world of sport climbing. I eventually found my way out and am grateful trad climber now.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Pictures at an Exhibition (5.10-), Split Rocks Area, Joshua Tree, 1977..........
That route is stellar, I love it mostly for the setting, but climbing a quartz dike up a Monzonite face is just funky and cool.....love that route.
It's a must do every year for my possee.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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speaking of buttonheads the button head rivet ladders on the upper pitch's of half-dome's (Tis-sa-ack route) are in dire need of replacement.
Robbins was shorthanded so he 1/2 drilled the rivet ladder! (need of replacement). This one i will put my Money on! for real!
Classic route!
haven't placed any buttonheads in my life because I'm too young!
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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RIP the 5/16" Buttonhead, you are sorely missed for Boschless, no wrench wilderness area F.A's.
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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Put in a few Buttonheads. Was doing a route with another Wisconsinite. I wanted to call the route "Buttonheads for Cheeseheads" but we used his name.
Go Packers.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2008 - 03:31pm PT
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Wack called it. A wrench doesn't weigh much, but it is extra weight for backcountry ascents. These days I'm using lots of lightweight gear to make up for weakness. So they do have a place it would seem. Not obsolete, but definitely not a revolution in "sport climbing"
I've still got maybe 7 of them left. I still hear that the new bits tend not to work well for buttonheads. Anyone got some insights on this they want to retell?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Roger,
The bolts Rokjox describes were *left* of Reefer Madness, which is the area of Friday the 13th in the 1987 and 1994 guidebooks.
The topo for the first 2 pitches of Friday the 13th is shown differently in the 1987 and 1994 guides.
Plus, Roger, didn't you find a separate start to Friday the 13th, right of what is shown in the topo? Maybe near where we climbed from the top of Hershey Highway?
We should make a topo showing all the bolts in that vicinity, and Rokjox can identify the ones he placed.
Here is a photo overlay I made that summer, but a better photo can be grabbed from the Xrez site
P.S. Rokjox, if you send me the date and names, I'll add it to the first ascent info I keep track of for Yosemite.
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/YOSFA.HTM
Here's the current first ascent info for the routes on that slab:
1547. Barney Rubble FA: Barney Ng, Keith Kishiyama, Dave Ryan, 11/1989
1548. The Violent Bear It Away FA: John Tuttle, Vince DePasque, 1986
1549. Double Trouble FA: unknown
1550. Arches Direct FA: Royal Robbins, Joe Fitschen, 6/1960
1551. The Rambler FA: Steve Gerberding, Scott Burke, Chris Hash, Gene Hash, 6/1986
1552. Shakey Flakes FA: Chris Falkenstein, Ken Bishop, Edd Kuropat, Tom Carter, Mark McPheron, 1972
1553. Friday the 13th FA: Dimitri Barton, Scott Burke, 9/1985
1554. Slander Session FA: unknown
1555. Flakes Away FA: Chris Cantwell, 9/1978
1556. Samurai Crack FA: Bill Price, Chris Cantwell, 9/1978
1557. Hershey Highway FA: Lance Lynch, Malcolm Jolly, 1978
1558. Mid-Life Crisis FA: Bruce Morris, Dave Yerian, et al, late 1980s
1559. Arches Terrace FA: Rich Calderwood, Merle Alley, 12/1957
FFA: Merle Alley, Rich Calderwood, John Ohrenschall, George Sessions, 1958
1560. Anorexia Crack FA: James Selvidge, Bernie Rivadeneyra
1561. Reefer Madness FA: Pat Timson, Don Harder, 1976
1562. un AT FA: Lance Lynch, ?, 1987?
1563. Greasy but Groovy FA: John Long, Rick Accomazzo, Richard Harrison, 5/1974
1564. Surf Nazi FA: unknown
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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You can still buy buttonheads:
http://www.fixeusa.com/button_head_bolts.htm
Have a handful of the 8mm ones and they work like a charm. They are a mite tricky to place though. Here is my first buttonhead placement:
I screwed this one up. If you look where I hammered the head of the bolt you can see I hit it on the top instead of exactly straight in. This caused the bolt to bend downward and create a pretty shitty placement. Still rapped off of it though.
-n
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2008 - 04:29pm PT
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hahaha, are those my hangers?
LOL!!
Strider, if it helps, on the old button heads it didn't matter if you wacked em on top or sideways too much. So I'm wondering if the bit you used was too small for the diameter of those buttons.
I think we talked about this, but don't remember the specifics.
M
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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LOL, I am pretty sure that is one of your hangers.
I was kinda thinking the bit was a little small but the buttonhead and the drill bit were bought together from Fixe and the salesman said this was the bit to use. So I am not sure what my problem is. To date I have placed 6 of these suckers and only 2 of them went is correctly, the rest would go about 3/4 of the way and start to deform. And before someone asks, yes the hole was deep enough.
C'est la vie.
-n
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Strider, toss those POS Fixe copies of the old 5/16" buttonheads. The Fixe ones are total garbage no matter how you place them. An old 5/16" buttonhead usually (despite Ed's experience) takes a ton of work to pull - generally not even worth trying unless the hanger is bunk or the placement clearly bad (fractured rock, bolt loose, etc). One of those copies will just break off with nearly no effort. A 1/4" buttonhead is stronger. No one should be selling those Fixe copies anymore, and if anybody has them, just throw them out. The ASCA bought a big pile (many years ago), and we tossed them.
The original 5/16" buttonheads on the other hand - the few people who have any left guard those like they're solid gold...
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CF
climber
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Here some old crap I have laying around. I got a box of old assorted buttonheads. Here is a Forrest Hammer, Chouinard holster, Leeper hook, Dolt keyhole hanger with some way old sling on it, my drill holder from the 70's and assorted bolts. Some of the old hangers are from old climbs that have been replaced.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Where are YOU from?
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The functional, yet historical kit. Nice.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2008 - 07:39pm PT
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I bid 1000 quotloons on the newcomer!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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What Greg said…
The Fixe buttonheads are way soft. That’s why they bend so easily when placed. We made the mistake of placing a bunch on Cataclysmic Megasheer, on the S Face of Half Dome – those bolts should be replaced sooner rather than later…
The 5th pitch variation of Zodiac (bolt ladder) consists mostly of these bogus Fixe buttonheads. I replaced the first three or four in the ladder with 1/4" buttonheads… because a quarter-incher is way more bomber. The rest should be replaced as well.
These worthless bolts need to be eradicated (oh, and I thought that I was saving that word for humans…) from any piece of rock that will ever be climbed on.
Strider, I think it’s safe to blame Fixe for the appearance of your first bolt, not your handiwork. The original Rawl buttonheads don’t bend that easily.
As far as drill bits for the original 5/16” buttonheads go, you’ll be cursing if you use a straight 5/16” bit. Use 21/64” bits for the not-so-solid stuff and 11/32” for the super-solid stuff. Oh, and you’ll need a REAL drill holder… not one of those SDS-only jobs (which are close to worthless IMHO).
Who makes those Metolius-look-alike hangers? Retail cost?
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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Well thanks for the update on the Fixe buttonheads. I had no idea they were so universally hated. Weird that Fixe would continue to sell them when they seem like a sub-par anchor.
Anybody know if the Powers buttonheads are any different? Maybe they make a good alternative.
-n
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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I use the Powers buttonheads all the time. I have a bunch of the old Rawl buttonheads (from the late 70's) and dispite the head being a little different profile, they are the same...BOMBER. I like the Confast buttonheads a little more though. Stronger, harder, cheaper.
You can score a box of 100 for $18 bucks here,
http://www.confast.com/products/split-drive-anchor.aspx
That's 28 cents each shipped and at your door.
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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Holy Crap! That Confast 1/4" buttonhead is rated to 5400 lbs of shear strength and 1050 lbs for pullout! That shear number is huge for a 1/4" bolt. A 3/8" x 2.75" wedge bolt is only rated to 3700 lbs in shear. The Power's 1/4" buttonhead is rated to 1760 lbs for pullout and 2090 lbs for shear.
-n
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2008 - 11:14pm PT
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Sal, what kind of drill bit you using for those Confast's?
I hate to go back and redrill to 3/8" but on some routes I really need to go faster and quicker on the drill. My calves can't hold out that much.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Fixe shouldn't be selling those, Kevin Daniels told me that he was going to stop selling them and try to get shops to stop selling them, and that was at least 5 years ago.
But sure enough, they are still on the Fixe website - 8 x 40mm.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Mungie,
I use a standard 1/4in X 4in Bosch SDS drill bit.
Gotta have the 4in one, the more available 6in bit bends too easily.
Confast is an excellent company. My orders usually only take a few days to arrive on my doorstep, unlike FIXE which takes up to two weeks at twice the shipping charges.
Their 3/8 and 1/2 inch bolts are excellent too.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2008 - 03:17am PT
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thx Sal.
i need to get me some a couple more shorty bits for that kind of work if I go that way.
disappointing about the FIXE bolts.
I separated out a thread for that as it seems damn important.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 11, 2008 - 12:27pm PT
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Death-defying buttonhead story finally added to the "Climbing at Squamish in the 1970s" thread.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Dec 11, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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Greg writes: "Fixe shouldn't be selling those, Kevin Daniels told me that he was going to stop selling them and try to get shops to stop selling them, and that was at least 5 years ago.
But sure enough, they are still on the Fixe website - 8 x 40mm."
Hi Greg, I agree with you. I bought several hundred from Kevin a while back. I tried everything to make them work- hand drilled, power drilled, different size bits, everything. They're just too soft, and often buckle when you hammer them in.
I was doing a new route on Higher Cathedral Rock, 30 feet out, and hand drilled a perfect 5/16 inch hole. When I attempted to pound in the 5/16 inch fixe button-head, it buckled- no good. I was able to yank it out and pound in the last 5/16 rawl button head I had- went in no problem. Not exactly easy to do on a stance 30 ft. out! Those old rawl 5/16 inch button heads were the best for hand drilling (4800 lb sheer.)
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Dec 13, 2008 - 01:00am PT
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safety sessions are always welcomed.
My concern with buttonheads is 20+years of that "freeze thaw effect" might make them useless for future climbers.
Life safety is way more important to me these days.
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Dec 13, 2008 - 11:32am PT
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Thanks for the beta Salamanizer, I ended up ordering a box from them.
Question: what hangers do you use for the 1/4 inchers? Looks like Pika sells a superlight one but it's a bit pricey...
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Dec 13, 2008 - 12:00pm PT
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"sport climbing as a gym born phenomena didn't happen til we started seeing gyms produce sport climbers really."
Sorry to butt into the oh-so-interesting technicalities of button head bolts, but this statement up-thread struck me.
From my perspective of 80's climbing history, gyms came about shortly on the heels of sport climbing, as a by-product of that.
I think the first sport climb I did was at Joshua Tree or Suicide in 1987 or so.
When I moved back to Boulder in 1989, there was Cats gym in Boulder, more a place for little girls gymnastics really. The next gym I saw was in Denver, then the Bolder Rock Club, this would have been in the early 90's?????
So I think sport climbing came first, then gyms.
I helped place a bolt, on lead, once. I don't know if it was a button head or not, I only helped drill. It was fun.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Where are YOU from?
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Dec 13, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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Tap, tap, tap.....
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
Vacaville Ca,
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Dec 13, 2008 - 02:11pm PT
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Nate, just use your standard fare bolt hanger. They work just fine. Look around, you can usually score cheap hangers for 1.75 to 1.95ea. Barrabes has good sales as does Acme Climbing and Ebay. Fixe is overpriced.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dec 13, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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Clint, Sorry it took so long to reply. Working long hours at the plant getting ready for the "Big Show" in January. Pulled out the log book for 2007 and yes there were some strange things about those first few pitches of "Friday the 13th". The second bolt on the second pitch was a double. I figured this to be an anchor for what I called a "Variation third pitch" There were three bolts on this pitch and it rejoined "Friday the 13th" at the second bolt of the third pitch. This variation was way easier and not so run-out as the pitch shown in the 1987 and 1994 guides. Also I seem to remember that the bolts on the first three pitches were button heads compared to the taper bolts found on the pitches above. It was like a period of time had passed before that 10c fourth pitch was climbed and the route completed. I will dig out that box from 2007 and take another look at the bolts/hangers from those first three pitches, that variation pitch, and the pitches above and get back to you.
Roger Brown
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dec 13, 2008 - 03:52pm PT
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The Warbler wrote: "First bolt, first buttonhead for me was the third bolt, first pitch of Stoner's. Now it's the fourth bolt, as we retrobolted the pitch with a bolt to better protect future followers of the crux traverse.
Largo was barking instructions from the base - I was a good thirty feet out looking at a possible ground fall.
But the stance was bomber."
Man, I totally forgot that we retrofittd that first pitch. When we first did it, that first lead was deadly if you fell after the traverse. Fall there and you'd go for, like 70 feet.
We used a stack of buttonheads on that route and most of them were pretty good for years. The other, threaded bolts failed after just a few months for reasons that still are a little mysterious.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dec 13, 2008 - 05:22pm PT
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We're thread jacking but hey, that was a great day at the base of Middle (1972??) when we first cast off on Stoners. The first move off the deck was 5.9, and 1,200 feet of slab loomed overhead. I was the guy with all the "experience," having climbed many of the hard face routes at Tahquitz and Suicide but having little experience on new routes. That didn't stop us. We were on a mission. How many times, during all those early probes on the route, did we say, "If we can only get this part, the route is ours." Amazing route in the respect that if you move a few feet on either side the climbing becomes either 5.12 or impossible. I remember being adamant that there was a route there, but looking back, I was just hoping there was . . . but we'd have a blast finding out, and scare the crap out of ourselves in the process, and that was the point after all.
JL
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Dec 14, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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Clint,
I took a good look at the stuff from 2007. Yes that "variation pitch" could have started at the west end of the ledge at the top of Hershey Highway. The bolts were as follows: The first bolt was a little above and to the right of the double bolts on the second pitch of "Friday the 13th" (1994 guide), then two more bolts to a 2 bolt anchor, then 1 more bolt that was just a bit below and to the right of the 2nd bolt of the 3rd pitch of "Friday the 13th" (1994 guide). All the bolts were 1/4" button heads with matching Leeper style hangers. The hangers were unmarked. 2 of the bolts had way old bail slings. All of the protection bolts on "Friday the 13th were threaded Rawl to the top of the 3rd pitch. After that they were Taper Bolts. My notes show you replaced the last 4 bolts on "Friday the 13th" so you probably have those bolts/hangers around there somewhere. We started replacing the "Friday the 13th" bolts on the 13th of July that year. Yea, it was a Friday :-)
Roger Brown
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