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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 22, 2005 - 01:10pm PT
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So I got tired of waiting for part one to load (it was obviously popular, and was taking forever), and started a new thread, related loosely to the same question.
Here's my question, for those of you (us) that believe that there is some superior being out there that had a hand in creating life: so how does it work now?
Is that superior being (we'll call him or her God) still around?
Is God still watching, all-knowing, all-powerful?
Or did God simply start life off and sit back and watch the show?
Most of the people who wrote in on Part 1 seemed to think that some or most of the Bible is screwed up in some way, either by translation mistakes or whatever, and so what do we now believe?
What happens when we die?
Do we believe in the end of the world and the second coming of Jesus? Do we believe in Jesus, or is he myth like some of the things in Genesis or Revelations?
What do you believe are God's current characteristics and level of involvement?
Do you believe there is heaven? Hell? Satan?
Just interested, and still formulating my own opinions about all of these things and more.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 22, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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part one loads on Netscape, when e™ balks.
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Ouch!
climber
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May 22, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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TR, maybe what you see is nature, which is not good or bad. It just is. It can show us beautiful flowers to make us warm and fuzzy, then kill 100K with an earthquake or some horrible disease. The capacity of life to change and adapt to nature's hissy fits is evolution.
We create our stories from our life experiences and they help to sustain us until we get crossways of nature. We wish for things until we convince ourselves they are real. Then we are truly insane.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 22, 2005 - 09:58pm PT
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Creation was not a one-time deal, rather it's an ongoing gig. And you can't separate the creator from the creation. It's not like there's "God," then there's reality. Everything is intertwined. That's my take on it anyhow.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 02:27am PT
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Seems like we've been discussing a bit of deep stuff lately and I hesitate to write about this stuff because I don't like it when politics or religion separate me from folks who I otherwise enjoy and appreciate, but you asked:
Folks tend to try to understand God in terms they can understand. Many tend to visualize God as very human and somewhat like a stern boss or strict father figure. But it's obvious that any being that created a universe that takes light millions of years to traverse, and manifested the vast complexity of even this world, that being is not an easy target for human comprehension.
God created everything out of his own being. If there were some separate material for God to use to make all this, it would be a type of God itself. The book of John says God created the world out of the "word." Our words are vibrating energy structured by information that originate out of ourselves. Not a bad explanation to a primitive people thousands of years ago.
But even though God is vast, transcendent, and beyond all comprehension, God is also intimate and immediate, closer than the closest. Everyone says God is in heaven. Where is that? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within.
God is Spirit which has as its nature consciousness. Would you expect God to be without consciousness? We read that we are created in God's image. Our essential nature is then Spirit which has as its nature consciousness. What's the last thing of yourself that you would ever sacrifice? Your awareness, of course. That's how we have an intimate link with the being that encompasses countless beings, of which there are 6 billion of just humans on this tiny world alone. A spark of the divine is within each of us as our soul and thus, we are keeping track of our own sins and writing our own story in the book of life. Judge not, lest you be judged.
You can think of this world as the dream of God. The reason for it is not comprehensible in rational human awareness. The purpose of our existence in this world is not our pleasure and luxury. The experiences we have in life, bad and good, have the effect of refining and evolving our Spirit. If you look at the course of your own life with openness and clarity, you might see an abstract sort of perfection in it. Everything that ever happened to you has brought you to where you are right now. What you are right now is reflected all around you as your life. Change within and your world will change.
Jesus may have been a pure expression of that divine being, but don't get hung up on one historical figure being the sole expression of divinity. Jesus was talking about his highest nature when he said he was the only way. You can't live without water, but Agua, H2O, and Pani are the same thing, and in a pinch, you can still get along with orange juice, or even cola or malt liquor.
So "what you believe" is a lot less important than "what is in your heart." My feeling is that God doesn't know what religion you are. God sees directly to the heart where that totality of what you are is revealed.
I know this kind of philosophy runs counter to what many folks believe. Believing we have the only way builds religions and makes us feel superior. I respect your path whatever you think, and I'm always open to deepening my understanding, so don't worry about me. If the highest power will grace me with greater understanding, I'm always listening. "Seek and you will find" Just be open to the fact that what you find might not be what you expected.
Peace
karl
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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May 23, 2005 - 08:06am PT
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What is "a creation of man to explain the creation of man"?
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Kirk Kobmann
Trad climber
Milford, MI
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May 23, 2005 - 11:11am PT
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"Seems like we've been discussing a bit of deep stuff lately and I hesitate to write about this stuff because I don't like it when politics or religion separate me from folks who I otherwise enjoy and appreciate"
Karl:
The only way this subject will separate you from others is if you let it. If this subject does separate you from others, it's because you "enjoy and appreciate" on the basis of agreement with you. (But you don't seem to have that problem).
Also, your post reveals your faith - something of your understanding of who you are, who God is, and who you are in relation to God. That's all anyone can have - a faith of one's own understanding. Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating relativistic Truth. Believing reason to be part of the picture of Truth, I also need to believe that Truth is other than my understanding; logic demands it and the word Truth implies it. (A well-known philosophy professor at the University of Michigan once convinced me that Truth is necessarily objective).
Assuming for the sake of argument that Truth is objective and not relative, maybe Jesus meant exactly what he said? Maybe he did mean that he is THE WAY.
C.S. Lewis - famous Oxford Don of scary intellectual prowess - one said that upon making a thorough and critical examination of the claims of Christ, one is necessarily left with two possibilities. He is either the Son of God, the one and only WAY to God, or he is a liar, lunatic, or worse. (Loose quote).
While I would never agrue against your desire for a personal faith. I would argue that Christ's claims about himself do not permit the validity of your analysis regarding him. Make no mistake, he DID claim to be THE way, THE Truth, and THE Life. What one does with that claim is, again, entirely a personal matter.
Largo:
Coming from a Biblical perspective, I would agree with you. The Christian Scripture (ex. NIV Bible) indicates that everything was created through Him and for Him and has it's substance in Him (speaking of Christ's pre-existence and power to create). There's also a verse somewhere in there that indicates that we know Him (the God the Father) through his creation. I wouldn't go so far as to say that creation is progressive because, personally, I don't believe revelation is progressive; but creation is certainly dynamic.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 23, 2005 - 01:11pm PT
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You guys are high.
Come back down to Earth.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 02:50pm PT
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Kirk wrote:
"Assuming for the sake of argument that Truth is objective and not relative, maybe Jesus meant exactly what he said? Maybe he did mean that he is THE WAY.
C.S. Lewis - famous Oxford Don of scary intellectual prowess - one said that upon making a thorough and critical examination of the claims of Christ, one is necessarily left with two possibilities. He is either the Son of God, the one and only WAY to God, or he is a liar, lunatic, or worse. (Loose quote).
While I would never agrue against your desire for a personal faith. I would argue that Christ's claims about himself do not permit the validity of your analysis regarding him. Make no mistake, he DID claim to be THE way, THE Truth, and THE Life. What one does with that claim is, again, entirely a personal matter."
Hi Kirk
The separation that I was worried about concerned not putting folks off who believe that those who don't believe as they do will roast in hell for eternity.
Knowing how to interpret Jesus' claim also means having know what "He" he was talking about.
I would point you to my statement regarding Jesus being "the WAY"
"Jesus was talking about his highest nature when he said he was the only way. You can't live without water, but Agua, H2O, and Pani are the same thing, and in a pinch, you can still get along with orange juice, or even cola or malt liquor."
In other words, if Jesus is the aspect of God that links humans to the divine, of course the Way is through him, but that also means he is way beyond one 2000 year old guy who lived in a limited time and place and planet.
If Jesus is "the Way," are we talking about the physical body of Christ or his Spirit? What's the name and nature that Spirit now? Did you know that neither Jesus nor his followers EVER called him Jesus. Jesus is a greek translation of Yeshua or something similar. Are you assuming that Yeshua knows that we're praying to him when we call him Jesus? If that is the case, can't we assume that God knows that we're praying to him even if we think Jesus was a blue-eyed conservative? If your kids called you DA-DA and didn't understand your true nature, would you roast em in Hell?
And don't forget, in the New Testament Jesus said that he had come before and people didn't recognize him. What's that about? Was his name Jesus before?
Still, I respect your beliefs. Even to claim to know exactly what Jesus said means to believe the Bible is completely accurate and infallable both in it's writing, compilation, and transmission. No such belief is truly necessary to recieve the blessings of Christ and his teaching in my experience.
As an example, a copy of the book of Revelations was just found that's 100 years older than any copy in existence. In this copy, the mark of the Beast is 616 instead of 666. Wonder how many folks got lynched because they were associated with 666 somehow throughout history?
Peace
Karl
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 23, 2005 - 03:21pm PT
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If you want to know what science has to say about how we got here, you should study science. Read, take classes. If you want to know about how a creator fits into the equation you should read the Bible. This is the sole source of the creation idea. There is no other religion that has the kind of history as Judaism that talks about a creator. Of all the religious documents and dogma in the world the Bible is the only authority on the subject of creation. I strongly suggest you read it. If you consider yourself a scholar to any degree, which if you’re interested enough to read this thread then you are then you should read the Bible.
The book of John (since Karl mentioned it) is a good place to start. Although not a traditional place to start a study on creation, it’s actually a great place to start it. Then read Genesis too. Exodus, Acts and Romans (and Hebrews if you’re familiar with the 5 books of Moses) are also excellent books to start with. I recommend you get a version written in modern English like the NIV, New American Standard or The Message.
Why read the Bible? Besides the topic of creation the Bible has more value and cultural relevance than most people know. There are many aspects of our western lives that are Biblical. I didn’t know how much the Bible was in effect in our world until I starting reading it. I’m truly amazed by it. And I’m especially amazed that most people (even religious people) are completely unaware of this reality. There simply is no resource that is more culturally relevant that the Bible today. The sad truth is that most people know little about it. And many of those who (supposedly) do have not read the Bible in its entirety, nor spend much of their time diligently doing so. The last time I asked someone if they read the Bible they said yes. Then I ask if they had read the whole thing. The answer was no. Sad! I honestly do not understand why Academia has pushed the Bible (as a scholarly resource) out of schools. People like to think they know the Bible pretty well simply because they have spent a lot of time around religious people or religious things. That is false. I know because I fell into this category. I used to think I knew what the Bible said. Then I read it. I found out what a moron I was. And I’ve only leaned how valuable it is through reading it. I didn’t appreciate it until I actually opened it for myself. I now understand why it’s printed in more languages and sold more copies than any other book in history.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 04:22pm PT
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It would be interesting to know what scholars (non-fundamentalist) believe about the origins of the book of Genisis. While the first 5 books of the Bible are traditionally ascribed to Moses, that seems unlikely since:
1. They also talk about Moses' death and afterwards.
2. It is written within that Moses was the most humble man on the face of the earth. (not a particuarly humble statement to write yourself.
Read Gilgamesh for example, and ask yourself how it relates to the Genisis Story.
Folks who study any religious books would do well to study some related aspects as well:
1. The cultural beliefs and tradtions at the time.
2. What the secular scholars and even naysayers claim. There are some things that the folks selling the faith (whatever it is) don't like to tell you.
3. Study other paths as well. Sometimes it add perspective to your own path. (just like some knowledge of Mountaineering and wall climbing might add perspective to a sport climber, or reading both sides of a bolting debate.)
Some folks might say that this kind of openness is a threat to keeping the integrity of the faith. I disagree.
peace
karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 04:24pm PT
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Kirk wrote: "I wouldn't go so far as to say that creation is progressive because, personally, I don't believe revelation is progressive; but creation is certainly dynamic."
Unless I'm misinterpreting this, you're sugesting the "one-time" philosophy, where in one great act by fiat, "God" created us in whole cloth and also revealed the "truth" for all time. This basically nails down creation and revelation to fixed points in time and space, whereas my experience shows me that creation, revelation, time and space are much more fluid, and anything that every happened is likewise hapening now.
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 04:38pm PT
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The Bible is the only proof of the Bible.
James Michener's novel, "The Source", offers what seems to me to be a plausible scenario for how our Bump in the Night stories originated.
People seeking answers and finding none, may just make some up to get through the day.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 23, 2005 - 05:48pm PT
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Jah-Weh: "I am."
Pop-eye: "I yam what I yam."
Conclusion:
God eats spinach.*
If you don't believe me, go climb Olive Oil in Red Rocks.
Brutus
*And God is spinach, eating itself.
P.S.
Translation for the humor-impaired:
"Beauty is eternity looking at itself in a mirror.
And you are eternity.
And you are the mirror."
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Kirk Kobmann
Trad climber
Milford, MI
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May 23, 2005 - 07:25pm PT
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Karl:
You've asked some very insightful questions (rhetorically or not). So much so that responding in full would be impossible in this forum. But I will offer what I can given scope and time limitations.
Yes, I am aware of Jesus' name. "Iesous" (ee-ay-sooce') is the Greek word from which the English "Jesus" is transliterated. "Iesous" was derived from the Hebrew "Yehowshuwa`" (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah), which in turn in connected to the Hebrew proper for Jesus, "Yeshua". (Messianic Jews gravitate to this latter name). In the Old Testament, God has many names; each name and a variety of compound names are meant to reveal an aspect of His character. In "Yehowshuwa`" and it's derivatives is the idea of God's power and desire to save the lost.
"In other words, if Jesus is the aspect of God that links humans to the divine, of course the Way is through him, but that also means he is way beyond one 2000 year old guy who lived in a limited time and place and planet.
If Jesus is "the Way," are we talking about the physical body of Christ or his Spirit? What's the name and nature that Spirit now?" --Karl
For a Biblical answer to the first paragraph, refer to the 1st chapter of the Book of John. You're in dead on agreement with the Bible so far as the pre-existence and eternality of Christ is concerned. Your second paragraph is addressed by theology of Incarnation and Sorteriology. The densely packed nutshell answer is that both Christ's Spirit and body are essentially The Way - the sacrifice of His body made efficacious by the perfection of His Spirit are the Biblical basis for salvation.
Largo:
"Unless I'm misinterpreting this, you're sugesting the "one-time" philosophy, where in one great act by fiat, "God" created us in whole cloth and also revealed the "truth" for all time. This basically nails down creation and revelation to fixed points in time and space, whereas my experience shows me that creation, revelation, time and space are much more fluid, and anything that every happened is likewise hapening now."
No, I am not arguing for a "one-time" philosophy wherein creation and revelation are somehow dependent upon time and space. Again, arguing from a Biblical perspective, time and space are constructs or emanations from the Mind of God and, as such, are less than Him. And since God, by any Biblical definition, is reality at its fullest - Truth - one can begin to see how a static reality can appear fluid, at least from a human perspective. Indeed, Biblical Scripture indicates a never ending growth and enjoyment in the Presence of God even as God Himself claims to never change and be "without shadow of turning."
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 07:38pm PT
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Hey Kirk. Are you some kind of Fundy preacher?
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:08pm PT
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What is a Fundy Preacher? I never heard of that term.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 23, 2005 - 08:15pm PT
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sounds like Sundy
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
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Quote: "No, I am not arguing for a "one-time" philosophy wherein creation and revelation are somehow dependent upon time and space."
Not dependent upon, rather originally occuring in a specific time and space. This old perspective posits the "truth" as happening with the birth of Jesus, suggesting that the revelation of that moment will never be equaled again in time and space except by Jesus himself, who operates outside time and space. This seeks to limit "true" revelation to Jesus and Jesus alone, which is not only all-or-nothing thinking (a thought distortion), but blasphemous, in my opinion.
"Again, arguing from a Biblical perspective, time and space are constructs or emanations from the Mind of God and, as such, are less than Him."
My experience suggest to me that it is artificial to separate out the mind of God from the emanations. "Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form. Exactly."
One and the same. Inextricably intertwined.
My take on it anyhow...
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:33pm PT
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Werner, Fundy is internet lingo for fundamentalist. These may include the 6K earthers, snakehandlers, footwashers, Republicans, Campbellites, Evangelicals, Prayer cloth salesmen, funkyhaired TV preachers who get words of knowledge from God that hemorrhoids are miraculously healed by a love offering,the Taliban, and the Bush theocratic council of progress tyranny. I may have left out a few. New ones are springing up as we speak, as new gods are created by necessity and convenience.
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crotch
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
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Karl,
I don't know if this is up to date, but last I heard, scholars had identified a number of writing styles in the bible via linguistic analysis and believe that each one can be attributed to a separate "redactor". It's probably been 10 years since I've visited this topic....
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 23, 2005 - 09:08pm PT
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Just noticed this one: "...you can't separate the creator from the creation. It's not like there's "God," then there's reality. Everything is intertwined. That's my take on it anyhow."
Are you saying that God is evil? By the statement that reality and creation are the same thing I can conclude that God is evil. Evil exists and is part of reality. Since evil is reality then it is a created thing and also intertwined with God. Hence God is interwined with evil, or rather he is evil.
This 'you can't separate the creator from the creation' idea ulimately leads to Panthology. This is very different than what the theology of creation implies.
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Ouch!
climber
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May 23, 2005 - 09:18pm PT
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What is evil? A subjective opinion of the opposite of good? For evil to exist as something other than bad deeds by flawed humans, seems to require belief in the boogerman.
I'll have to consult my Ouija board about that one.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 23, 2005 - 09:20pm PT
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Yes, there is an amazing detective story behind Biblical scholarship regarding the sources and authorship of Biblical Books. I recommend the book "Who wrote the Bible?' by Richard Friedman. (Simon and Schuster-Summit Books)
The analysis goes beyond writing style and includes word usage, theology, politics, and the stories that are often repeated several times with significant variations.
It's a complicated story but suffice to say that battles over the power of the priesthood (particularly who was entitled to be a priest) were exacerbated after the split of the Kingdom into Israel and Juda after Soloman died figure prominently. Both kingdoms developed their own version of the scriptural stories and when they were reunited, they had to combine their versions into a unified work.
Just like you could figure out what came from where if somebody combined the Roper guide, the Supertopo guide and an early Reid guide, you can see where the different strains of Bible sources come from as they differ much more than the books in my example. Unfortunately, political power and religious power have influenced the development and spread of scriptures from most religions.
That doesn't mean you can't suck some wisdom out if you "have ears to hear."
Peace
karl
Since God created all, the buck stops with God, and that includes Evil. If I could have built a strong anchor but make a sketchy one and gave it free will to fail, who'se fault woud that be? Still notions of responsibilty for creation are centered on our limited human view. I wouldn't "Blame" God though since we don't understand the point of creation to begin with.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 23, 2005 - 09:25pm PT
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"It's a complicated story but suffice to say that battles over the power of the priesthood (particularly who was entitled to be a priest) were exacerbated after the split of the Kingdom into Israel and Juda after Soloman died figure prominently. Both kingdoms developed their own version of the scriptural stories and when they were reunited, they had to combine their versions into a unified work."
No wonder I'm forever getting off-route... err... putting up first ascents...
Brutus
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Blight
Social climber
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May 24, 2005 - 05:41am PT
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"Hence God is interwined with evil, or rather he is evil."
Close but not quite.
If you accept the biblical proposition of God (and if you don't then th erest of this is redundant) then you accept that he is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Omnipotent means all-powerful; God can do anything. That doesn't just mean he can do intersting things like being in all places and all times simultaneously and seeing everything at the same time, it means that he can do totally counterintuitive things like being perfectly good but creating evil, being part of and not part of the universe and anything else no matter how difficult to understand.
That God clearly doesn't fall within the narrow set of cirumstances that the arbitrary set of rules we made up and called "logic" can explain is certainly inconvenient. But to argue that he doesn't or can't exist because we don't understand and can't explain him is patently absurd and childish.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 24, 2005 - 10:53am PT
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There's a flaw in your argument. Agreed the God of Israel is omnipotent according to the scriptures, but just because he can do anything doesn’t mean he will do everything.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 24, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
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Jay wrote: "This 'you can't separate the creator from the creation' idea ulimately leads to Panthology. This is very different than what the theology of creation implies."
Nope. The word is Panenthism, al a Whiehead, Bergson, and the others involved in "preocess theology."
I noticed that you mentioned the "God of Israel," so I assume you are qualifying God with terms and constructs particular to your creed. Of course God cannot be contained in this way--of that we may be sure.
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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May 24, 2005 - 03:29pm PT
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The God of Israel is pretty much of a fixed entity. Has been fairly inflexible and steadfast in his notions for a long time. He was probably the first god who was not made of stone in some Greek temple or primitive cave. He was constructed so as to be highly mobile. Until recently, he mostly visited his plagues and
extinctions on his own people. Now he seems to be a bit distracted by Hezbollah and other people of the sandy regions.
The Fundy god is malleable and subject to the political whims of whatever election happens to be at hand. He hasn't the patience for evolution. He forgives any transgression by any rightwing politician or jackleg preacher. All in the middle or to the left of Attilla the Hun are condemned to the fiery pit of minimum wages.
Judging from the mutants emerging from the rightwing, evolution is alive and unwell.
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Claude
climber
where I'll end up
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May 24, 2005 - 03:32pm PT
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Largo~
How can the potter be part of the clay formation that was created by the potter?
Humbly asked,
claude
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 24, 2005 - 03:55pm PT
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Largo~
How can the potter be part of the clay formation that was created by the potter?
Humbly asked,
claude
Mind you, my comments are only my take on this all, nothing more. It is, however, my direct experience, for whatever that's worth.
Anyhooo, you're still thinking of God in terms of an entity or some thing separate from reality as we live it, much as a potter is separate from the clay. This is the model that sees God as one thing, living, perhaps, in a castle in the sky--who exerts influence onto other things--read, us. I'm sugesting that God includes the whole shebang, and excludes nothing, including evil, sex, hang doggers, nuns and saints.
It's our rational minds, specifically lour left brains, that divides reality into things.
Push this any further and we'll be into the timeless discussion of the one and the many, a debate that spans the centuries.
JL
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Claude
climber
where I'll end up
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May 24, 2005 - 04:45pm PT
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I still don't feel you are answering the question. I hear this all the time, and i am straining to understand it. I feel like i am in touch with the breaking free from black and white thinking and allowing for greyness to creep in. I am trying to shed all "pre-understandings", but i am unable to find a solid basis for this thought that you suggest. the mere existence of created matter, implies that there was once uncreated matter. what pulled it all together to become what it is today? you are suggesting that the created matter itself pulled itself together to create itself. How can that be brother?
would you say then that at a garbage dump, eventually an airplane may arise out of the garbage?
help me.
claude
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 24, 2005 - 04:52pm PT
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A look in any town's yellow pages under "Churches", even a town as small as Hood River, Oregon shows that god has done pretty lousy PR job relative to anyone understanding what it was he has said or what his intentions are. Even within a particular sect or cult, say Baptists, the "word" of god and the interpretation of the bible is so badly fragmented as to be completely laughable. That coherent interpretations of religious texts can't be maintained over the course of a generation let alone endless generations makes it pretty unlikely that the original thought and intent behind any given religion has survived the butchering of a litany of agendas on its way to paper let alone over the ages on its way down to us.
From the bible, to the qur’an, to the vedas, to the book of mormon, to the works of L. Ron Hubbard there is nothing that distinquishes a single one of these egocentric, self-referential, human fantasies from the other beyond their use to segregate people and imbue power. As far as I'm concerned none have legitimacy rooted in fact of any kind, but exist today as an unbelievably direct and unconfronted [group] emotional tie to primitive fears. I see no difference whatsoever between a Sunday Catholic mass and ritual sacrifice in a village in Borneo - both as primitive and rooted in ignorance and fear as human behavior gets.
When it comes down to a choice between the fantasy and the dogma of make believe answers of religion or an incomplete science which doesn't claim to know more than a fraction of the answers to our existence - I'll take the latter everytime. It's hard to conceive of a more twisted and comical history than the evolution of religion, or one more inextricably tied to our enduring legacy of war and genocide...
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Claude
climber
where I'll end up
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May 24, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
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Thanks Dingus. I understand what you are saying, for i's heard it before.
"Otherwise there has to have been a before. And before implies after. Omnipotent beings don't really cotton to before and after. Why should the universe?"
It is true, but omnipoptent beings can create a universe with a beginning and an end. That is my point though, how can an omnipotent being become part of its powerless creation?
And also, will the lives that life will create (cloning, stem cell, etc.) ever be the same? Ever be as good, as superior, as perfect as the original? My prediction is in no way will they be. we will see serious repercussions.
I just don't want us to get caught up in cool sounding ideologies and self serving philosophies that sound rad over the ever burning campfire, but the next morning sound like complete hogwash. i want us to truly strain for the truth. of course, much of the time i would rather be outside thinking about nothing, but this thread caught me. I appreciate your words brother.
claude
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Ouch!
climber
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May 24, 2005 - 05:25pm PT
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Healyje may possess the vision to look through the trees and see the possum in the forest beyond.
How many of us profess to believe only as a hedge against
the possibility. Is this not the epitome of hypocracy. Reseeding in each generation through indoctrination of children.
Then what if we are spiritual beings of some energy, temporarily
inhabiting matter, like hermet crabs, only to move on when the matter becomes unfit for occupation. Too bad we have to die to have a clue.
Before there was anything, there was something else. What, we can never know, for we are limited by knowing through our human perspective and we are the sum total of our short life experiences in our limited environment.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 24, 2005 - 05:30pm PT
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Largo –
No, I didn’t refer to Panenthism I meant Pantheism (which are related I think). I probably made up that word panthology. A definition for pantheism is: "God is everything and everything is God ... the world is either identical with God or in some way a self-expression of his nature" (Owen 1971: 74). Which is a virtual rewording what you said, no? Theism is the belief in a god or gods especially with regard to them having distinct personalities or being personal. Pantheism regards no such distinctions that theologies have attributed to God. And the Bible paints a picture of a most personal God. He obviously relates to individuals in a personal way. So Pantheism in a way is the opposite of Theism. I suppose it could be a theology given a broad enough definition of the terms but I’ve explained what I meant well enough.
By saying the God of Israel I’m making very clear that I’m speaking of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. It’s his God I speak of. There’s no question I’m referring to the God so detailed in the Bible.
Paraphrasing you said “God cannot be contained in the constructs particular to a creed –of that we may be sure.” Why are you so sure? Have you seen proof of that? Are you saying the Bible is wrong or inadequate in it’s depiction of God? That’s pretty bold. No one can argue successfully either way without a strong enough premise, and who has that kind of premise but God?
I will concede you this though, even the most Bible adherent people admit that they are progressing toward godliness (or getting to know him better) and will never truly know him completely. So in a way your statement has some truth to it if you twist it a little and maybe that’s what you meant. The Bible states that the revelations of God will never end. The picture it paints is that God will continue to be infinitely beyond our understanding and he will manifest himself in increasingly more glorious ways at every stage of our growth. This goes on for eternity. Wow! Pipe dream? Maybe. Not my decision to say it is so, but that is what the Bible says.
Back to my question… You answered it with your response to Claude. I wasn’t sure if you believed that or not but I guess you do. BTW, I sort-of believed that too for a while.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 24, 2005 - 05:37pm PT
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"Healyje may possess the vision to look through the trees and see the possum in the forest beyond."
Man, I don't know about that, but I have no problem with a finite existence borne of a statistical [im]probability...
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Ouch!
climber
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May 24, 2005 - 06:30pm PT
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Some of this stuff is mind blowing. Like Mormons baptizing long dead Jews and Catholics. I read where they were accused of ripping off souls.
Some, downright hilarious. I worked with an old rake who got
visited by the young men on bicycles. Like a reformed smoker or drinker, he became a bit fanatical in his new faith. His bishop told him he must visit and ask forgiveness from those he had done wrong. He started visiting women with whom he had dallied and some of their husbands took a dim view of his testimony. After a few near death experiences, he chose to forego forgiveness for transgressions of the flesh and focus on more mundane petty sins. A most practical epiphany. Curiously, he became enchanted with firearms and always went about heavily armed.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 24, 2005 - 08:12pm PT
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"how can an omnipotent being become part of its powerless creation?"
1. If the being is omnipotent, then by its very nature it has the power to both have the power and not have the power to both become part of its powerless creation, and to not do so at the same time. Or not. No? Yes?
2. Why do you assume its creation is powerless?
Blessed are they who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed.
“Then what if we are spiritual beings of some energy, temporarily inhabiting matter, like hermet crabs, only to move on when the matter becomes unfit for occupation. Too bad we have to die to have a clue.”
Energy and matter are two faces of the same thing, so the less energy you put into it the less it matters.
"Not everything that counts can be counted. And not everything that can be counted counts." -- Either Albert Einstein, or "the Count" from Sesame Stree (depending upon who you ask)
We have all the clues we will ever need. Like Mandelbrot, nature is not a linear mathematician.
Remember the book by Carl Sagan, “Contact” wherein the astrophysicists became obsessed with the search for the signature of God, a perfect circle of ones and zeros buried deep within pi as expressed in base eleven arithmetic?
We have all the glues we will ever knead – remember playing in the horse hoof paste in the first grade? eating the paste, tasting Mr. Ed's toenails?
Or when we realized we were getting old, when we were first grayed?
The Chaos of non-linear mathematics expresses itself, God’s signature, in every aspect of her creation.
Chaos reigns.
Choss rains.
All hail Discordia.
Golden apple of Discordia, Illuminati, eye in the pyramid, i.e. in the pyramId, pyr am id, self-burning Lutheristic pre-theses self-punishment, seeking redemption, is there any Mir in the mirror, on the wall we crawl, we fall, grasping at the fairest wheel of them all, The Ferris Wheel, the world is a wheel, we wheel and deal but in the end we’re all fish in the creel, as we gasp our last breath still longing for the Lost World of Atlantis, the unfound door, the distant and magical mountains of our childhood, looking homeward Angel as the fish, the angelfish we are, angled for, snap up the worm never seeing the glint of the long-sought brass ring, the golden hook buried within, becoming at the moment of our feasting the feast, the food for the worm, the full belly of the snake, dreams of reptillian pleasure in the belly of the persona of evil, looking out of lidless eyes, tasting the air with our forked tongue
welcome to the food chain. We taste just like chicken, a snake eating its own tail, the perfect circle.
The world is a wheel. My tire’s flat, flat on my back and tired, and I’m missing spokes. I mis-spoke. I must have Miss Polk.
No wonder I don’t know whether I’m coming or going.
"you run and you run to catch up to the sun but it's sinking
racing around to come up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older,
shorter of breath, one day closer to death." -- Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon
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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2005 - 09:23pm PT
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God is omnipotent, therefore He can be exactly in touch with us by His words. His words and He are not different. That is omnipotency. Omnipotency means in everything relating to God has the same potency.
Just like here in this material world the..., if you want water, you are thirsty, if you want water, then this water, simply calling, simply saying repeatedly, "water, water, water, water, water," will not satisfy your thirst. Because this word has not the same potency as water itself. You require the water as it is. Then your thirst will be satisfied.
But in the transcendental, in the absolute world, there is no such difference.
These personalities, either God or son of God, who come from the transcendental world, they keep their transcendental identity without being contaminated by this material world. That is their omnipotency
Now what?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 24, 2005 - 10:49pm PT
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Jay wrote:
"Paraphrasing you said “God cannot be contained in the constructs particular to a creed –of that we may be sure.” Why are you so sure? Have you seen proof of that? Are you saying the Bible is wrong or inadequate in it’s depiction of God? That’s pretty bold. No one can argue successfully either way without a strong enough premise, and who has that kind of premise but God?"
What you're arguing for here is the propriety of a map–namely, you're chosen map, the religious map furnished by the Bible, while at the same time daring me to provide another map that has more authority, truth, verity, than the Judeo-Christian topo. What I believe you're missing here is that I'm not referring to a map at all, and for good reason: the map, no matter how divine, has never been, is not, and never can be, the territory. The map, by it's very structure, is second-hand information provided by someone who has "been there," much as a Supertopo is a map of a wall that contains accurate information, but not ALL the information, nor is the Supertopo the wall itself. If the map was the territory, or the Supertopo was the wall, there would be no need to climb at all.
I'm talking about the territory itself, and if you ever chose to go there I can guarantee you that you won't experience a map, rather the territory itself. Living off the map is called "religion," and there's certainly no harm in that providing there's no judgement or hierarchy involved. Exploring the territory is called "spirituality," and it's 5.13 all the way.
You asked me, "Why are you so sure? Have you seen proof of that?" I have. If you're interested in finding out for yourself, you'll have to make that adventure alone, and it will start the second you step off the Map of the Known.
If you're honestly searching--which would amaze and astonish me--backchannel me.
JL
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 25, 2005 - 01:26am PT
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Hello to my frieds on the S. taco.
Quite a discussion and beat poetry session going on! nice brutus!
I'll have to first point out...
Karl -
"But it's obvious that any being that created a universe that takes light millions of years to traverse"
Okay Karl, first point is just the little inner geek. Light will never be able to traverse from one side of the universe to the other. The universe is expanding faster than the speed of light. Sorry - very geeky I know.
Largo -
"... and it will start the second you step off the Map of the Known"
Very poetic, honest and very hard for people to do.
I think a point that has been made in many ways is that nobody has THE answer. You can have YOUR belief - that God is THIS or God is THAT - but it's simply a guess. Each and every one of us gets our own free guess at what the whole ball of wax is about, where when why and most definitely HOW?!
Some people like their guess enough to either never take a step off that map or just don't care to... it could make their guess look silly in hindsight.
As for the fella way up in the top of this thread asking about an airplane popping outta garbage... what you're really asking is if entropy is one directional? Do things go from an ordered to unordered state or vice-versus?
Let me ask you this? How did tiny little bits of sand end up becoming the computer that you are typing on? Things can certainly move from less ordered to more ordered... but it takes energy. And as mentioned above, c squared is the constant leaving us with Mass and Energy being two sides of the same coin. If you've got Mass, then you've got energy and things WILL happen because they can.
I'm getting long winded here, and the question was what?!
J.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2005 - 01:47am PT
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Modern "science" has created an imaginary world where there is no soul, there is no need for any higher intelligence, a world where everything can be explained by the chance interaction of material elements. A world where the life force does not exist at all, it is simply a manifestation, a reaction from a certain chance chemical combination.
Their whole world is evolution. Evolution is the most fundamental belief that practically all of today's science is built on. And there is evolution also--but it is the consciousness that evolves or devolves--not the body. All the bodies of all the 8,400,000 species of life are existing--if not in a physical form in a subtle form--and when a particular living entities' consciousness matches a particular body he is awarded that type of body. But all the individual species exist eternally. It is the individual souls who are evolving and devolving up and down through the different species of life, not that one species is evolving into another species by "natural selection."
They love evolution because it enables them to believe that everything happens by chance, that there is no authority, there is no higher intelligence above them. They do not have to surrender to anyone, they do not have to serve anyone. This is the real point of science. To provide a world-view where there is no necessity for a God or any form of higher intelligence. That way humans are at the top of the ladder and the most powerful, and free to do as we like.
We could speculate for millions of years but it would not help. We can not see what is going on and we can not see how the machine is working or what is making it work. These things are simply beyond the power of our senses to perceive. We can never understand the universe in this way.
Now go find the holes, you will become frustrated ............
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 25, 2005 - 02:18am PT
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To address Claude's question higher above:
He asks how can God be part of God's creation?
Imagine this analogy. You dream at night. You create a whole world filled with many beings in your dream, all out of your own awareness. Are you a part of them or not? What else are they composed of? Are you a personal God for them or are you just their substance?
See how simplistic answers don't apply? Although everything in your dream is created out of your own conciousness alone, you still exist transcendent of the world you created. Everything in your dream world is made of you, and yet you are both personal, yet also abstractly present in the dream, and the contents of the dream reflect on you as well.
The dream has a beginning and an end that's not the same as your beginning and end, yet the dream people still emanate from you and dissolves back into you.
It's not a perfect analogy but the spiritual world can't be modeled in our terms easily.
After all, think of this, "Eternity" is beyond time. If God is Eternal, he has no beginning or end. That means time is ony real for us in the creation of God, but God's existence is in a whole different (non)framework,.
Peace
karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 25, 2005 - 03:08am PT
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Now go find the holes, you will become frustrated...
Well, I don't think frustration really enters into it; your beliefs are that - unsubstantiated beliefs not provable by any means - so it's not so much frustrating as fascinating.
Modern "science" has created an imaginary world where there is no soul, there is no need for any higher intelligence, a world where everything can be explained by the chance interaction of material elements. A world where the life force does not exist at all, it is simply a manifestation, a reaction from a certain chance chemical combination.
"Modern science" hasn't created worlds of any kind and certainly not one that claims to understand all or even many aspects of human conciousness. While possessing a fair understanding of the basics, science has far more questions than answers when it comes to conciousness, or even "thinking", let alone "being". And looking out into the universe it does look as though the conditions that allow for life (as we know it on earth) are a result of a series of simple, but nuturing, statistical outcomes.
Their whole world is evolution. Evolution is the most fundamental belief that practically all of today's science is built on.
Nothing could be further from the truth - if anything our understanding of evolutionary processes has been utterly primitive prior to the development of almost every other area of science. Particularly the quite recent rise of genetic sciences has allowed us to see evolutionary processes and consequences more clearly than even 20 years ago. Hell, it turns out that most of our taxonomies (family trees) of life, especially plants, were completely screwed up and based [mistakenly] on things "looking" alike when in reality they were genetically quite disimilar and distant.
And there is evolution also--but it is the consciousness that evolves or devolves--not the body. All the bodies of all the 8,400,000 species of life are existing--if not in a physical form in a subtle form--and when a particular living entities' consciousness matches a particular body he is awarded that type of body. But all the individual species exist eternally. It is the individual souls who are evolving and devolving up and down through the different species of life, not that one species is evolving into another species by "natural selection."
Well, that's certainly one belief - on what evidence do you hold this belief? That you were simply told [as a disciple] it was so? If that is the case, then what drove you to believe that particular story over any of the other religious/aboriginal creation story? That you liked the idea, or the people who told it to you, or both? By your choice you are contributing to the "fitness" and survivability of your particular theology in a rather vicious evolutionary fight among various religions to survive for yet another generation in a world that has buried and forgotten more than a few of them.
They love evolution because it enables them to believe that everything happens by chance, that there is no authority, there is no higher intelligence above them.
I know no one in science that holds this perspective; they may believe there is no "higher intelligence", but that has nothing whatsoever to do with their affinity for the theory or science of evolution; that has more to do with plausibility than purpose.
They do not have to surrender to anyone, they do not have to serve anyone.
Life (and death) represents, if nothing else, inescapable and relentless service - biologically and ecologically speaking anyway, all organisms serve a collective whole. I don't know any scientists who wouldn't acknowledge that simple reality, especially if they survive off grants and endowments.
This is the real point of science. To provide a world-view where there is no necessity for a God or any form of higher intelligence. That way humans are at the top of the ladder and the most powerful, and free to do as we like.
I don't think there is a "real point" to science beyond establishing a thoroughly incomplete "worldview" or collection of independently verifiable facts, some of which help us, many of which do not. And I certainly don't consider humans the "top" of anything beyond exploitive tool use. I happen to share a worldview that sees all organisms on the planet as simply the current ["fruiting body"] expressions of an underlying global pool of DNA that is relentlessly churning species to keep pace with the physical and biological realities exhibited by our planet at any given time.
Maybe we are the "best" survival vehicle for the moment, but I suspect our impact and consumption patterns over the long haul may be creating a world where we will actually have a higher "value" as a [transitional] food source than as a durable survival vehicle. That role could easily revert back to "lower order" species without any great loss to the overall diversity of the underlying [gene] pool. Simply put, from a pathobiological perspective, it's just not necessarily an advantage to be the "last man standing" as other "higher order" species vanish in a world rapidly losing natural habitat and biodiversity...
We could speculate for millions of years but it would not help. We can not see what is going on and we can not see how the machine is working or what is making it work. These things are simply beyond the power of our senses to perceive. We can never understand the universe in this way.
Well, most science-oriented folks would agree that with our limited senses and capabilities we are never going to have anything remotely like a complete "worldview" or "collection of facts" about existence, certainly not in the remaining time this sun is going to burn suitable for life on earth. What "science" does do is encourage people to think up interesting and plausible answers to questions without them; what it doesn't do is give people [within the admittedly limited context of "science"] permission to pass off any imaginable answer as "the answer" or as a "fact" without some means of others being able to independently verify it [at will].
And if god or any other "higher intelligence" existed, then one could presume they have powers far exceeding yours yet you and I are able to communicate directly both in person or over time and space via the Internet; I find it remarkable that such an entity seems unable to do the same at the very least - or have I simply been underestimating Juan all this time...
P.S. Brutus, when it comes to primates pushing plastic my hat's off to you for that last post...
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 25, 2005 - 11:51am PT
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Nice invitation JL, I was wondering if it would come to this. For those paying attention I must say that I haven’t been completely forthright in my beliefs because they really don’t matter all that much. What matters is the truth. What authority do I have to tell other people what to believe by claiming my own? The only authority I feel comfortable to use in such a forum is the Bible. No other document is quite like it. It’s extremely logical in content and meaning unbeknownst to many people. Many think it a wild fairy tail, which I can understand why. But most of those people have never read it, or they’ve rebelled against it early on because something has left a bad taste in their mouth. Most people who’ve read it see it differently though; even those who don’t “believe” it. It’s elegant and strong. It’s not the world’s best seller for nothing. Some people hijack the Bible to say all kinds of crazy things. And others are gullible enough to believe someone’s whacked out plans with it. I hope that’s not the case for all of you. Don’t let anyone tell you what to believe. Guard your heart and don’t cross any bridges you haven’t been lead in spirit to cross, or haven’t checked out thoroughly.
I notice an extreme amount of inaccuracy and misconceptions about the Bible spoken here and all over the place. It’s not my job get you to believe anything in particular, but given my studies and experience in learning from the Bible I think it’s my duty (to some extent, I’m not your teacher and you aren’t my student) to at least present the Bible for what it says. It’s up to you to make what you want with it once you’re aware. My hope is that you’ll actually read it, and pray for truth and enlightenment in the process. What have you got to loose by doing that? Let the Bible speak for itself.
JL calls it a map. Would you sail accross the sea or venture into the winderness without a map, compass, or some kind of guiding instruments? How do you know what kind of terrain you're going to run accross. And what is your desired destination? There are many maps. I say the Bible is a darn good one. But don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself. You can read a map and not go on the adventure. But man, what an adventure you can have!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 25, 2005 - 12:38pm PT
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"It’s elegant and strong."
That's definitely an "eye of the beholder" sort of thing; I find the Bible quite a meandering mess and very, very weak because of it.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2005 - 12:40pm PT
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Lol
Yes, very good ……. do not believe for one instance that I believe I’m enlightened, that is a true shackle.
There are two arguments being made Gods and yours now which will hold true?
Do not also jump to the conclusion thinking that I believe I’m god. One who thinks he is god is none other than dog.
The lord of all creation will see who really is in shackles here.
I know that I am ,without doubt, under the tight grip of the shackles of illusion …..are you?
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 25, 2005 - 01:13pm PT
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healyje, have you read the whole thing? In a version you can understand without being a linguist?
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Claude
climber
where I'll end up
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May 25, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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well, in the end, despite our thoughts and perceptions, despite our progress and attempted manipulations, one thing is inevitable...
every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess.
Sooner than later i hope.
I love you.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 25, 2005 - 03:50pm PT
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"JL calls it a map. Would you sail accross the sea or venture into the winderness without a map, compass, or some kind of guiding instruments? How do you know what kind of terrain you're going to run accross. And what is your desired destination? There are many maps."
Indeed thre are many kinds of maps. The maps I have found most useful are the ones that don't describe the territory so much as help steady you up once you get outside your comfort zone. That's like turning the roof on the Shield, and it can be very unnerving for the old ego.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 25, 2005 - 04:08pm PT
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"healyje, have you read the whole thing?
No, it was simply too badly written and assembled with so many conflicting concepts, stories, and pronouncements I had to put it down about a third of the way through - if that is god's word s/he is in serious need of a proofreader, editor, and an instructional designer.
"In a version you can understand without being a linguist?"
Well, that is essential problem with religious texts, isn't it? Put a text through an intepretive/tranlation process that inherently includes biases and agendas every so often for a thousand years or so and the result is a mess. In this case the collection of starting texts appear to have been a largely incoherent mess.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 25, 2005 - 04:11pm PT
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"I know that I am ,without doubt, under the tight grip of the shackles of illusion …..are you?
I'm just another spark in the dark, but as a dog - I know a bone when I trip over one and there's [almost] nothing I can't get right on the fourth or fifth try...
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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May 25, 2005 - 05:47pm PT
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Healyje,
Yeah, I know what you mean. Which parts did you read? Sounds like you got bogged down somewhere in the Old Testament. That’s easy to do. It took me a few tries over the years to find that it’s not as messy as you think. It's long and depending on which book you read it could easily bore you to death. You should pick it up again. What do you have to loose? Do you think you’ll be manipulated? People do that. The Bible won’t.
If I were to recommend a good place to start for anyone interested in possibly giving it a try, or 2nd try, or nth try start with John, then Acts and Romans, in that order (funny I said that before). Go anywhere from there, but it’s also my recommendation to simply complete the New Testament after Romans. Then start back at the beginning with Genesis and work your way back to John. It’s not all that important to read it exactly in that order, but I do think it’s important to gravitate toward certain books to start with. It will give a better framework in which the rest of them have context.
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2005 - 12:33am PT
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Do you believe there is heaven? Hell? Satan?
Maybe better ask this guy?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2005 - 12:41am PT
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Werner, I can't quite make out what he's saying, but he's definitely talking to you - waywards spirits before atheists...
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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May 26, 2005 - 01:02am PT
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I do believe some of the more lengthy posts here(Karl's) are described by the old saying that "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh#t." Come on all of you, it ain't that frickin' complicated. If people want to think that everything evolved over 3.5 billion years, let them. I did some research a while back and found that even if evolution were true, there isn't enough time in the evolutionists model for all this evolving to take place. You guys that are trying to change their minds are wasting your time.
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2005 - 01:24am PT
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Oh no it ain't Dingus we got 100 more posts to go. Don't be runing away now. Let me tell ya whippersnappers all about it, err ...
I think I'll wait till tommorrow......
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Ouch!
climber
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May 26, 2005 - 01:29am PT
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Come back in a year, or century. Same questions, same confabulation. This history was written long ago, by people who witnessed none of it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2005 - 01:56am PT
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Considering all the delicate ground that was covered in both this thread and the one before it, I think it's pretty dang good that no flame war has erupted.
Maybe we all get some "God Points" from the One upstairs/within for that.
Or maybe we've just evolved...
Peace
karl
Regarding my post length, I'm just presenting my point of view, with the knowledge that few will read carefully or try to understand. And it's just fine with me that way. Once in awhile I get in a hurry and I didn't even give the Brutus masterpiece all the time it deserved. (PS Brutus, come visit with the Nurse sometime and bring whatever was in your cup when you wrote that)
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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2005 - 02:58pm PT
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I have to say, this thread has been fascinating.
I particularly enjoyed the poetry by Brutus: Hail Discordia!
I have to find out what/where Discordia is, by the way, so if you know, let me know...
Also, the analogy of a dream is a great one; and so is that of the Bible being a map.
And Healjye and Dingus have some wicked good points, too. It looks like several sides of this thing are well-represented.
The relative lack of flame-fests is sweet and shows something pretty cool - I'm psyched that we can bounce this huge topic back and forth without getting pissed at one another.
I still haven't fully decided what to believe, but I sure am having fun trying to figure it out based on all of your comments!
In the meantime, I went to Bishop the past three days, and even though it was rippin' hot during the middle of the day (mid-90s, it was okay b/c we went skinny-dipping and then laid around like lizards in the shade from noon to 4), I got in some good climbing in the AM and PM (sans religious conflict).
Although, the boulder problem Atari (V6, at the Happy Boulders) did give me a near-religious experience: it most be the proudest, most beautiful problem in the whole damn world. I didn't even come close to sending it, but I loved trying!
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 27, 2005 - 03:20pm PT
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I'm in there, about 3 weeks after "fishing season" opens.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 28, 2005 - 06:46pm PT
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"I know that I am ,without doubt, under the tight grip of the shackles of illusion …..are you? "
um, sure. I take that as the starting point and try to work from there.
Werner how do you come up with thosoe animations and photos on such short notice? Col Klink was my favorite.
"In the begining there was this thing, then one thing lead to another ..." Genisis, via Tom Robbins
"And god made made man out of mud and gave him life.
"What is the purpose of this?" asked man.
"Does everyhting have to have a purpose?" asked God.
"Certainly! ""said man.
"Then I leave it tou you to find the purpose in this."
apologies to Kurt Vonnegut
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2005 - 09:36pm PT
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How do you come up with thosoe animations and photos on such short notice?
Jaybro I .......
Google,...and more google, and Col Klink was actually first found by Donny. Since I have to do so much research on microprocessors I've really learned the art of using that great search engine.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 28, 2005 - 10:12pm PT
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Some nice replies above, especially by Healyje.
Testament and Exodus are two of my favorite metal bands…
And I am so tempted to quote Iron Maiden again… “666, the Number of the Beast, Hell and Fire were spawned to be released…” It would still sound just as cool if they sang “616, the Number of…” instead…
Here’s one: Why is hard rock/heavy metal so greatly influenced by religion, especially Evil? I could quote applicable lyrics all day long until the keys fall out of my keyboard…
If God is Good, then Dog is Evil, because Evil is the opposite of Good and Dog is the opposite of God. Hmmm, I can’t think of too many songs about a dog, other than that stupid one by G’nR… “I used to love her, but I had to kill her…” So why does Lord Ozzy keep singing about Satan instead of his dog? Who is Satan? That animated guy with a bad sunburn above looks like he’s ready for Halloween. I thought Satan was a goat, but I’m sure that I could imagine something different… guess I’ll just have to wait and see…
There is a good article in the November 2004 issue of National Geographic, titled “Was Darwin Wrong?” that discusses the subject of evolution vs. creationism. One thing that I found amusing was that, according to a Gallup poll of 1,000 U.S. adults in the years, 1982, 1993, 1997, 1999, and 2001, the percentage of those who believed that God created humans (and evolution played no role) remained relatively constant (at least 44%) over this period of almost 20 years. Throw in some big business and you have a majority to win an election… Yikes! …but blowing sh#t up is still cool…
Werner, I found your 8,400,000 species of life… as estimated by “Srila Prabhupada, of the Hare Krishna movement.” Where does this estimation come from? Does it take into account the species that have become extinct?
A simple and quick search on the total number of species turned up these two sites:
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/58.html
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/9h.html
AKclimber wrote:
“I did some research a while back and found that even if evolution were true, there isn't enough time in the evolutionists model for all this evolving to take place. You guys that are trying to change their minds are wasting your time.”
What type of research did you do? Do you have any references to share? Which model are you referring to? Not enough time for evolution to take place? How about viruses? HIV is able to mutate and evolve at human time-scale rates, rather than geologic time-scale rates. Do you not believe in the fossil record? 3.5 billion years is a long time. How long would it take you to count to 3.5 billion? It would take almost 111 years if you counted at a rate of one number per second. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind – I just have fun pointing out the silliness in their arguments!
Blinny wrote:
"That God clearly doesn't fall within the narrow set of cirumstances that the arbitrary set of rules we made up and called "logic" can explain is certainly inconvenient. But to argue that he doesn't or can't exist because we don't understand and can't explain him is patently absurd and childish."
So if we don’t understand him and can’t explain him, then why bother believing in him in the first place? That seems as absurd and childish as Saturday morning cartoons. Where is the EVIDENCE? In some ancient book? Why jump to such illogical conclusions with no solid evidence to back it up? And if we’re/you’re supposed to believe, based on faith, then I might as well be convinced that there are purple cows on The Dark Side of The Moon. If I have faith, then they exist. I then can make anything exist. I’m a magician. Whatever.
Werner wrote:
”They love evolution because it enables them to believe that everything happens by chance, that there is no authority, there is no higher intelligence above them. They do not have to surrender to anyone, they do not have to serve anyone. This is the real point of science. To provide a world-view where there is no necessity for a God or any form of higher intelligence. That way humans are at the top of the ladder and the most powerful, and free to do as we like.”
Chance? Seems to me like it’s pretty orderly if you start to look at the details. You see order in electronics, right? Then why can’t that order carry over to life and evolution? Are electronics and evolution governed by two different forces?
The real point of science? That’s like me telling you the real meaning of religion…
In no way do I feel like science puts me at the top of a ladder. In fact, it humbles me and makes my existence feel quite inconsequential and minute – a single grain of sand (SiO2) washed into the sea of time.
Why does ‘order’ in nature have to be created by higher intelligence? Or is intelligence what enables us to appreciate the ‘order’ that we observe?
”We could speculate for millions of years but it would not help. We can not see what is going on and we can not see how the machine is working or what is making it work.”
Oh, but we CAN see the machine work and all of its beauty and that is what has caused us to THEORIZE that the Earth has been here for millions and billions of years (4.6 billion to be vaguely precise).
The sciences tend to compliment each other rather than contradict each other, as it seems the many religions of the world do. What kind of conclusion would one come to if each religion sold them a different story? Can everybody be right all of the time?
Seems to me like religion is a way for someone to know everything without knowing anything. It’s a crutch – the easy way out. What’s wrong with being comfortable not knowing everything? If we knew everything about everything, wouldn’t life be pretty boring? Doesn’t predetermined creation limit the need for advancing human thinking?
I have a friend here in town that I met five years ago in one of my geology classes. We became friends because of similar interests (rock hounding/geology, shooting guns…) but I don’t see him too often because I’m not on campus much anymore. The last time I saw him, he mentioned something about Creation and I was like, “Oh, I better not go there…” He then said that he was looking at a job at some sort of Creationist’s organization and how he didn’t believe in all of the science (that he just spent several years learning). I asked him how old he thought all of the granites that I am working on in the Sierra are… and he said about 6,000 years old. “What about U-Pb zircon dating?” I said. He replied that it doesn’t work, nor does carbon dating and the Grand Canyon couldn’t have formed in 6,000 years so God must have created it. I was shocked.
How can someone go through over six years of college, get a Masters degree in geology, and then decide that it’s all a bunch of BS and refute the beliefs of the majority of scientists on this planet? I think he has lost it; he gave up.
Here are a couple more random links, just for the Hell of it…
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f01/web3/baird.html
http://www.fathom.com/course/10701050/session2.html
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2005 - 11:01pm PT
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Of course, fanatical materialists may argue that God is a mere anthropomorphic creation of the human mind—a mythological deity created by people who need to believe in some superior being. But this argument is not logical, nor does it prove anything. It is merely the opinion of certain people. We need water, but that does not mean man creates water. We also need food, oxygen and many other things that we do not create. Since our general experience is that our needs correspond to available objects existing in the external world, that we appear to need a Supreme Lord would tend to indicate that in fact there is a Supreme Lord.
In other words, nature endows us with a sense of need for things that actually exist and that are in fact necessary for our well-being. Similarly, we experience a need for God because we are in fact part of God and cannot live without Him.
At the end of Kali-yuga this same God will appear as the mighty Kalki avatara and beat the pollution out of the demons.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 28, 2005 - 11:30pm PT
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I do not need a Supreme Lord, therefore a Supreme Lord does not exist.
At the end of Kali Yuga is the summit of Half Dome.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 28, 2005 - 11:43pm PT
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What you "believe" disappears whenever you're not thinking about it.
What are "are" endures in your every act, and can be shaped by your religion, your pursuit of science, or spirituality, or even climbing, or raising a family.
Life puts lessons and tests in front of you. What you learn from them and how you "evolve" as a result, moulds who you are.
Whether it's science or religion, we tend to believe what we want to believe. It takes courage to question your beliefs to get closer to the truth, and yet, we all must do that if our vision is to get clearer, since nobody has 20/20 vision out of the gate.
Interesting reading on "The neurobiology of mass delusion"
http://www.willitsnews.com/Stories/0,1413,253~27832~2891502,00.html
Peace
karl
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 29, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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To gain insight into semi-rigid attitudes about religion and science, look at your parents and what they believed. How much is your belief and/or proof system a function of their preferred systems? in other words, do your predilections closely follow theirs, or are they 180 degrees different? (both cases you surrender control to parents, not creating room for developing your own viewpoint).
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2005 - 01:11am PT
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Yes the man killed his neighbor and believed he did not kill him even though deep inside his consciousness he knew he was lying to himself. After many years he actually believed he never killed the neighbor. All his friends believed it too, for he was very expert at manipulating words to give so called true meanings. He believed he had no need for truth, and truth came to him as death.
The truth can never be deceived.
I do not need the sun, therefor the sun does not exist ........
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 29, 2005 - 01:33am PT
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Ok, we'll see how long you last...
"Hey, turn off the Sun for a few days for me, will ya God?..."
And then God spoke the word and there were forty nights and then forty more nights...
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 29, 2005 - 01:35am PT
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I do not need the sun, therefore I will climb Steck Salathe.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Yes, The Sun is the eye of Narayana. Beyond the effulgent bodily rays of the lord is Supreme Lord himself.
All schemes are only useless scraps of paper in the face of war, famine, earthquakes and other disasters. All these disasters are warnings from Mother Durga, and by them she confirms her eternal superiority over the illusioned planmakers.
Yes the foolish children who do not understand things beyond their limited knowledge simply wave them way and say “It does not exsist”
The lion king of the jungle did not care for their foolish knowledge either and simply devoured them.
You simply have no power to drive away this mist!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 29, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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You simply have no power to drive away this mist!
Well, the Death Star has over 300 horsepower and the windshield wipers work pretty well...
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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Lol .... ok! Good sense of humor, Minerals
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 29, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
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"Since our general experience is that our needs correspond to available objects existing in the external world, that we appear to need a Supreme Lord would tend to indicate that in fact there is a Supreme Lord."
Seems to me you're putting the heart before the course.
Brutus
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 29, 2005 - 06:38pm PT
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If god (in whatever incarnation resonates with you) appeared before you and said "if you believe in me you must destroy all humanity" would you do it?
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| Messages 1 - 78 of total 78 in this topic |
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