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Gene
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 21, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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FRESNO — The National Park Service said today it will close part of a popular lodging complex at Yosemite National Park because an unstable cliff has created the potential for deadly rockfall.
Park officials said 233 cabins will close permanently, or about one-third of the lodging units available at Curry Village to park visitors. About half of the 618 cabins have been off-limits since a rockfall on the historic complex Oct. 8.
http://www.modbee.com/breakingnews/story/507605.html
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 21, 2008 - 02:03pm PT
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Nature is awesome..*
Good riddance to a pox on the landscape.
One wonders if this will inspire some sort of 'alternative' development though.
No bailout for Concessionaire Losses!
*and Doug's a pretty cool dude too.
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Ω
climber
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Nov 21, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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What about all the new employee housing directly below the latest rockfall??
Sucks that NPS was allowed to ruin this pristine area! It was always so nice to boulder over there on hot days shaded by all the trees, but all those trees were cut down.
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Nov 21, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
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Regarding the timing and frequency of rockfalls at Glacier Point:
There have been more rockfalls from Glacier Point in the past decade than in previous decades, but even a cursory look at the talus at the base of the cliff indicates that rockfalls are frequent there over geological timescales. 150 years of historical data is useful, but probably not a good indication of longer-term geologic process rates.
It is also interesting to note that the rockfall database (http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-491/of03-491.pdf and subsequent observations) shows similar increases in the number of rockfalls for virtually every major cliff area of Yosemite Valley. This increase mostly results from an increase in reporting rate, and developed areas such as Curry Village have more reported rockfalls simply because there are more people around to report them. Even so, the statement in the recent AP article that there have been more rockfalls above Curry Village than in any other area of Yosemite Valley is factually incorrect.
Half Dome is another area that has shown an apparent increase in rockfall activity in the past several years, and the majority of those events have occurred in the summertime, between May and August. This demonstrates that rockfall patterns seen at Glacier Point occur elsewhere in the Valley. And, I might add, these other areas exhibiting similar rockfall activity do not have any infrastructure at the top of them.
Greg Stock
Park Geologist
(209) 379-1420
greg_stock@nps.gov
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 21, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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Welcome to what passes for contemporary objective journalism. Thank you, Greg, for presenting an objective view.
John
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Nov 21, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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FRESNO, Calif. — An unstable cliff prompted officials Friday to permanently close some cabins in a popular Yosemite National Park lodge complex that has a long history of rockslides.
National Park Service officials said 233 cabins in family friendly Curry Village will close permanently. That's about one-third of the units available in the complex that also includes stores and restaurants run by an outside company.
About half of the 618 cabins at the village have been off-limits since a rockfall Oct. 8.
An Associated Press story this week said federal geologists have warned for at least a decade that the granite face of Glacier Point above the village was dangerous. Despite two deaths and an increase in the frequency and severity of the rockfalls since 1996, park officials had been reluctant to act.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 04:51pm PT
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from the bad journalism link above...
Yosemite geologist Greg Stock, hired three years ago mainly to study the rockfalls, said the incident last month indicates the professors are incorrect in theorizing that human water use is to blame.
You tell 'em Greg!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Nov 21, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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So who's writing the work order for moving all the tent cabins
over to Ahwahnee Meadow in front of the web cam?
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Joe Metz
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 21, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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Thanks for the link, Greg. Any chance we can see the actual data tables?
"Park Geologist, Yosemite National Park" -- is that a cool job title or what!
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Nov 21, 2008 - 05:30pm PT
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You can download an Excel file of documented rockfalls in Yosemite from 1857 to 2004 here:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2003/of03-491/
I have documented all observed rockfalls since 2004, and was originally planning to include them in an updated USGS Open-File Report to be published in 2010. However, given the keen interest in these data I may try to make them available sooner.
Greg Stock
Park Geologist
(209) 379-1420
greg_stock@nps.gov
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Gene
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2008 - 05:37pm PT
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Thanks, Greg. It's great to have you in these discussions.
gm
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 06:52pm PT
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The difficulty being that the entire Valley has a long history of rockslides and floods. When it isn't filled with ice, that is, or experiencing fires, snowstorms, and other natural events.
With the closure of the river and other campgrounds, there are far fewer campsites in the Valley than 25 years ago. This will further restrict the numbers of visitors. Lots of significant policy consequences.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Nov 21, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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did someone call my name?
Is it dinner time?
4:20?
happy hour!
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Joe Metz
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 22, 2008 - 12:13am PT
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Greg, thanks for the prompt reply! There is a lot of interesting info here.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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Speaking of 4:20 nature, it seems ironic that the park stone expert has it in his phone number!
The concession just can't win in recent years. First the river washes away a bunch of yosemite lodge, and now Curry is toast.
PEace
karl
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-Skip
Mountain climber
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Nov 22, 2008 - 01:44am PT
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This is a good discussion. Greg... congrats on getting some cabins closed or moved. I saw in another thread where you said you were “working on it.” I’m certain there are safer places nearby that many units could be moved to.
I don’t think the real issue in the news articles is the number of rockfalls in Curry Village. I think the issue is simply that the total number of injuries and the amount of damage is higher beneath Glacier Point than elsewhere in the park. And that’s only logical because there are a whole lot more targets (people and structures) there than at other places in Yosemite. It hasn’t made sense for a while now, to house staff and unsuspecting visitors in Curry Village without at least warning them and giving them the choice. Why provide rockfall warnings in other parts of the park (Middle Brother and Bridal Veil) but not there? I sure don’t know... but maybe it was concessions driven?
All of us who climb understand that there are slabs everywhere in Yosemite that are close to equilibrium and that even a small trigger might be enough to start one going. It’s a risk we take. It could be a fellow climber, an earthquake, freeze-thaw, snowmelt, or precipitation to mention some. Each of those can involve water directly or indirectly, and water is listed quite frequently in the rockfall database Greg pointed us to. Shoot, even global climate change might play a role.
So, of all the places in the park, in a setting as critical as Curry Village, it would sure make a lot of sense (for public safety), for the park to invest in the best possible understanding of water movement in the vadose zone under Glacier Point. It doesn’t matter as much at other places in the park... but it sure matters at Curry Village.
Climbing might have hazards. Sleeping in Curry Village shouldn’t. I think that’s why Greg has been working to get cabins closed or moved. Adding a geologist to the park staff was a good move.
I don’t think any of us would knowingly climb Mr. Natural or Apron Jam on the days that extra water was being added in sensitive places up on top... if we had known what days those were.
For those who’d like to dig deeper, there’s an interesting Glacier Point rockfall map, some published professional articles with Glacier Point stability calculations, and even some rockfall source area climbing pictures (if you scroll to the bottom) at:
http://www.runet.edu/~cwatts/yosemite/index.html
Plus... you can find out there when some of the days were that extra water was being added from above to the rocks of Glacier Point.
Climb on,
-Skip
cwattsva@aol.com
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 22, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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John Muir was in the Valley during the 1872 earthquake (8.2-8.4 in Lone Pine):
"... It was a calm moonlit night, and no sound was heard for the first minute or so [after the earthquake], save low, muffled, underground, bubbling rumblings, and the whispering and rustling of the agitated trees, as if Nature were holding her breath. Then, suddenly, out of the strange silence and strange motion there came a tremendous roar. The Eagle Rock on the south wall, about a half a mile up the Valley, gave way and I saw it falling in thousands of the great boulders I had so long been studying, pouring to the Valley floor in a free curve luminous from friction, making a terribly sublime spectacle--an arc of glowing, passionate fire, fifteen hundred feet span, as true in form and as serene in beauty as a rainbow in the midst of the stupendous, roaring rockstorm.
After the ground began to calm I ran across the meadow to the river to see in what direction it was flowing and was glad to find that down the Valley was still down."
Found that here: http://projects.crustal.ucsb.edu/understanding/accounts/muir.html
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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Nov 22, 2008 - 03:15am PT
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I say: get on Grack Center, climb fast, and hope for the best... it's an awesome climb, the danger kinda makes it fun??? maybe!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2008 - 04:21am PT
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"Yosemite geologist Greg Stock, hired three years ago mainly to study the rockfalls, said the incident last month indicates the professors are incorrect in theorizing that human water use is to blame. "
Does this mean they will reopen the mega-expensive bathrooms that are locked up next to the porta-potties?
Peace
karl
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-Skip
Mountain climber
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Nov 22, 2008 - 10:10am PT
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Rokjox - As far as I know, there hasn't been human wastewater "pumped" into the cliffs for several years. I haven't heard of anyone claiming that recent slides were caused by that. Seems to me that you're also right, pumped wastewater would only influence a percentage of the falls, "releasing them early" compared to the longer timing of nature without help. -Skip
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StevenJ
Trad climber
Norcal
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Nov 22, 2008 - 10:18am PT
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Hello Supertop Crew!
I've been lurking for about a year. I climbed in the Valley a lot as a teenager in the mid-80's so it's fun to see that some of you I used to recognize in Camp 4 are still around! (I guess I was luring there too.) Many posts remind me of the "glory days" and I've actually, gasp!, started climbing again with my kids.
I recently read an article Doug Robinsion wrote called "The Atomic Broom Theory", http://www.adventuresportsjournal.com/html/Articles/45/alpinism.htm
In it he talks about how the rock fall in the Sierras accelerated due to atomic testing in he Nevada desert and this left the mostly solid rock of the 60's, 70's etc. to climb on. He goes on to state that rockfall is increasing because enough time has passed for stuff to start getting wedged off of the faces on a regular basis again.
Interesting but I'm not sure I buy it.
Any thoughts? I'd love to hear from Greg Stock on this if it's been considered. The data on the spreadsheet that Greg posted doesn't appear to support this idea but I would think the reporting of rockfall is probably more complete now than it was in the 30's, 40's and 50's.
If it's true that atomic bombs make for better climbing let's start testing again! (JUST KIDDING!!)
sj
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Nov 22, 2008 - 11:29am PT
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Geologists and hydrologists from the U.S. Geological Survey have investigated the issue of wastewater at Glacier Point in detail. Their results show that the amount of wastewater available for infiltration at Glacier Point is miniscule compared to amounts of natural rainfall and snowmelt. Unfortunately, because of the ongoing litigation, they have not yet been able to publish their findings, and so the media coverage of this issue has been very one-sided.
It was interesting to read in the AP article that the stated human influences on Glacier Point rockfalls have switched from wastewater to the parking lot and unspecified "construction". I presume this is because none of the recent rockfalls can be plausibly linked to wastewater in any way. The shifting arguments for what triggers Glacier Point rockfalls suggest a determination to blame these rockfalls on human activity no matter the circumstances.
Water does not appear to have played a role in triggering the October 7 and 8 rockfalls. The detachment area was dry when photographed immediately after the rockfalls, and when viewed from a helicopter about an hour later. This rules out wastewater, and also parking lot runoff, etc., as possible triggers.
I’ll follow up on Greg Barnes’ historical note with this one. The first documented rockfall from Glacier Point was made by the famous geologist Joseph LeConte, who wrote: “Soon after leaving camp, Soule and myself, riding together, heard a big rumbling, then a crashing sound. ‘Is it thunder or an earthquake? Looking up quickly, the white streak down the cliff of Glacier Point, and the dust there, rising from the Valley, revealed the fact that it was the falling of a huge rock mass from Glacier Point.”
The year of LeConte’s observation? 1870.
The month? August.
Greg
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gstock
climber
Yosemite Valley
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Nov 22, 2008 - 11:39am PT
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StevenJ, I’ve got some issues with the “Atomic Broom Theory”. The May 1980 Mammoth Lakes earthquakes triggered thousands of rockfalls in the Sierra Nevada (Harp et al., 1984, USGS map I-1612), including at least nine here in Yosemite Valley. The atomic broom must not have been very efficient if it left that much loose rock to be dislocated in 1980. Even if the loose rock were “swept away” in the 1950’s, it would take far longer than a few decades for the granite to be substantially weathered again. Think about all that pristine glacial polish in Tuolumne Meadows – it’s 18,000 years old, a product of the Tioga glaciation, but it looks like it formed yesterday. In Yosemite Valley we still see the effects of the Tioga glaciation on the spatial variability of rockfall – most of the large rockfalls occur from above the glacier trimline where the rocks are more weathered.
That is not to say that atomic testing didn’t change our world in fundamental ways (isotopes in the hydrologic cycle are but one eye-opening example), but I doubt that it had much impact on rockfall in the Sierra Nevada.
It’s a beautiful day in Yosemite Valley - I’m out the door.
Greg
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StevenJ
Trad climber
Mill Valley CA
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Nov 22, 2008 - 01:01pm PT
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Thanks Greg!
sj
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Nov 22, 2008 - 02:24pm PT
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rock falls in the valley every day and night. some days and nights more than others.
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-Skip
Mountain climber
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Nov 22, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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“Unfortunately, because of the ongoing litigation, they (government geologists) have not yet been able to publish their findings, and so the media coverage of this issue has been very one-sided.”
That’s what I don’t like about litigation, or even the fear of litigation. It gets in the way of sharing useful information and slows the answering of questions needed to protect the public. That’s so counterproductive.
As for the press, reporters often over simplify or confuse the fine points. Only the general pictures get through. The experts need to be allowed to sit down together and compare what they know with open minds unhindered by attorneys, so they can each begin to grasp what the others have been saying.
There’s more to Glacier Point rockfalls than there’s room for in news bites. But comparing concentrated point-source wastewater in a sensitive location to non-point source rain and snowmelt is like comparing apples to grapes. Which is which? Sadly, it looks like a court might have to decide.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Nov 30, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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I'm amazed that Mighty Hiker's observation has been basically ignored:
"With the closure of the river and other campgrounds, there are far fewer campsites in the Valley than 25 years ago. This will further restrict the numbers of visitors. Lots of significant policy consequences."
Yosemite Lodge cabins, River Campgrounds, and now a third of Curry, gone? (Anyone remember Muir Tree Campground?) No doubt many cheer this as a another step toward getting the Valley under control. For me, the Valley is a lost cause insofar as being a primitive experience. (If we were to limit access sufficiently to return to a primitive experience, the average Joe could get a once-in-a-lifetime, three day visit by winning a lottery.) If the NPS is going to take out a third of Curry, it's time to ask for public input as to whether to close or to relocate the affected cabins.
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enjoimx
Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
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I think the left arete will go!
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