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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Oct 16, 2008 - 09:10pm PT
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Either provide the links to the prop descriptions without letting us know how your voting, or describe why you would vote the against a renewable energy statute, and continue to fund the militant Islamist countries.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
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A vote for Prop 8 is a vote for bigotry.
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Oct 16, 2008 - 09:15pm PT
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Here we go again. Why am I not surprised that I disagree with Jody on the two I clicked. Yadda-yadda-yadda
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 16, 2008 - 09:17pm PT
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Well, I'm with you on 7....
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2008 - 09:41pm PT
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Jay, prop 7 or on 7 of the props?
Kleinhopper...it will result in drastically increased utility rates and a further depressed economy in CA.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 16, 2008 - 09:56pm PT
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#7, possibly something else
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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Jay, that is the prop kleinhopper was ragging on me about.
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andanother
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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I just read #2.
Flashlight, you are a genuinely despicable human being. You really are.
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2008 - 10:42pm PT
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Andanotheridiot, everything is not as it seems. There are already regulations about treatment of farm animals. If this passes, watch the price of food skyrocket in CA.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
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And I'll repeat, a vote for Prop 8 is a vote for bigotry...and hate.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:22pm PT
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What Moral Authority does the Government have to decide who can and who cannot be married?
Shouldn't those decisions be left to the individual, the family, their temple, church, mosque, tribe, drum circle or whatever?
Instead of the Government?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:32pm PT
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I agree, so vote no on 8.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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maybe I can edit the title:
California Asshole's Voting Guide
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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A *YES* vote on Prop. 8 says the same thing; that you believe decisions as to who may or may not get married are best made by the Government.
The Government should not be recognizing marriages any more than it recognizes who's baptised, circumsised, saved by Jesus or whatever.
Don't vote yes OR no on Prop 8. Tell The Government to mind it's own business.
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andanother
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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OK Flashlight, then enlighten us.
Based on a quick read of the props, I'd have to say that your voting opinions are pretty f*#ked up. And, no, I'm not referring to #8. You have your opinions on that subject, and I understand why.
So if you're going to post what you're voting, how about a little explanation as to WHY?
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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So, who agrees with my entire list so far?
Why should I explain myself to an anonymous internet dork? You mean NOTHING to me.
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andanother
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:48pm PT
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"Their headed for the fuking dinner table...
give me a break!!!..."
And locker joins the ranks of the other white-trash-pieces-of-shit that make our country so great!
Hey locker, have you ever considered suicide? It's a great alternative to just wasting your life away by smoking weed all the time.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
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"Don't vote yes OR no on Prop 8. Tell The Government to mind it's own business. "
Nope. Voting Yes is a vote for discrimination. It tells the government that certain people are of less value. A none-vote simply allows it to happen. I understand what you are saying. But either vote against government sanctioning of marriages entirely (which I think you'd support, but is not on the ballot) or vote against discriminatory practices by voting no on 8.
Eight is hate (catchy--I just made that up).
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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Vote family values, for all families, No on 8!
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2008 - 11:53pm PT
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Oh, how ignorant some of you people are.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:54pm PT
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Why SHOULD The Government decide who can and who cannot be married?
Why should The Government care?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:55pm PT
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Chaz, I'm not arguing that point with you. I AGREE.
BUT: the fact is, Prop 8 would do exactly that!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 16, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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"Why should The Government care?"
Because the government is you.
Not my idea, but that's how I see it.
Oh ...! and edit. That thing about how they treat animals:
"As long as there are slaughter houses, there will be battle fields" -- Leo Tolstoy
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andanother
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:01am PT
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"Why should I explain myself to an anonymous internet dork? You mean NOTHING to me."
Well, you've responded to me twice now. And you seem to be getting a little worked up, calling me names and such. So I think I mean a little more to you than you care to admit.
Also, a few others have asked for an explanation as well. So, just tell yourself you are responding to THEM and not me.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:01am PT
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I can't tell my neighbor it's OK or not for him to marry whomever he pleases.
Why should I be able to just because I get The Government to go along with me?
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MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:02am PT
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It's nice of Jody to bunch them all together in one thread, rather than a thread for each proposition!
Thanks for that!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:04am PT
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"I can't tell my neighbor it's OK or not for him to marry whomever he pleases.
Why should I be able to just because I get The Government to go along with me?"
Agreed again Chaz. So vote no on 8, which would preclude some people from getting married.
I understand you don't like state sanctioned marraiges, but if it exists it should at least be a hate-free institution open to all.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:07am PT
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Don't slaughter animals, please.
You don't need to eat them.
You don't eat your children?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:10am PT
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About what I'd expect Jody. Stick to taking beautiful photos. We can agree on that.
The same tired arguments against gay marriage were used to justify bans on inter-racial marriage within my lifetime. Denying civil rights to any group is about as UnAmerican as it gets.
With Liberty and Justice For All should not just be a nice sentiment.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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Mr Moosie writes:
"It matters how animals are raised, even if they are going to slaughter."
Do they taste any different?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 17, 2008 - 12:54am PT
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"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'"
(Matthew 25.35-40 ESV)
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lunchbox
Trad climber
santa cruz, ca
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:51am PT
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"It matters how animals are raised, even if they are going to slaughter."
"Do they taste any different?"
Maybe, maybe not, but consider this. Poor quality meats and veggies are cheaper aren't they? Why is this? Calories are calories, but the nutritional contents vary greatly from organic to factory farmed products. Wine makers figured this out centuries ago, it's in the soil.
If solitary confinement and stress positions have taught us anything, it drives people to the brink of insanity and beyond. And people want to eat animals subjected to the same kind of treatment? It blows my mind.
The western diet has failed us!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:28am PT
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"Why should I explain myself to an anonymous internet dork? You mean NOTHING to me."
Yeah I mean what kind of total geektard would actually think to COMMENT on a public forum when someone specifically posts their voting record in a brand new thread and then solicits comments?
I mean what kind of lifeless jackass are you?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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You would have to be a real lowlife piece of sh#t to vote no on 2.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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Sorry the guy was attacked but that "article" is shitpropaganda from a shitsource.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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And yes, Prop 8 supporters are supporting hate.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
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Ha ha... the funny thing is that the polls for the one's I looked at suggest that Jody is voting opposite of what will come to pass.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:14pm PT
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I found the article (concerning prop 8) ironic. "I don't have anything against them (gays)", yet he supports legislation that discriminates against and oppresses them. Lame. Whether you want to admit it or not, it *is* discriminatory.
In my mind, the only options for being a supporter are: you're a religious fanatic, a homophobe or simply "jumping off a bridge" cause your friends did. Pathetic, really.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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"religious fanatic, a homophobe or simply 'jumping off a bridge'"
Well, there must be a lot of those in California because the voters disapproved of gay-marriage by a 61% to 38% margin before, only to have it overturned by a 4-3 court decision...which is pretty close.
Hence the constitutional amendment to skirt the judges and have the 'dicriminatory/hateful' Californian's votes actually count.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:30pm PT
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Apparently so. Regardless, doesn't change what it is. It's too bad separation of church and state isn't a real thing.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:32pm PT
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Many of the finest court decisions in history have run counter to the hateful/discriminatory majority of the time.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:33pm PT
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Once again, California voters have a chance to vote themselves more services without paying for them. The successful initiatives will become essentially unfunded mandates that then compete against other unfunded mandates and constitutionally mandated services. Then we will go even deeper into the red.
For thirty years, California voters have been voting themselves more services and lower taxes. This election will be no different. But due to our irrational tax structure and the collapse of the housing/paper bubble, next year's revenue will be catastrophically lower than projections and lower than this year's. But we will have mandated that the state provide us with more services.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:43pm PT
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I agree klk, we have a budget problem in Cali right now and often times people don't read what financial impacts certain Props will have on our already overly inflated budget.
I heard about this non-partisan site that summarizes Props but I haven't thouroughly checkid it out yet.
http://citizenvoiceblog.wordpress.com/
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 17, 2008 - 03:57pm PT
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blue-- tx for the link. gary dietrich's been around for awhile (he's a regular on one of the bay area radio stations), but i hadn't seen his website.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 17, 2008 - 04:14pm PT
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Just think, if Gay Marriage is legalized, so many previously moral men might leave their wives and marry guys instead. Watch all the sports you want, all the sex you want, I'm sure it will tempt them grievously.
Everybody who wants to go gay once you can marry a guy, raise your hand!
peace
Karl
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 05:06pm PT
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See what happens when The Government gets involved in something that's none of it's business?
We have folks, who would otherwise get along fine, at each other's throats, burning and stealing sh#t, etc.
But you're going to trust The Government to make it all better. Good luck!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Oct 17, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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I think people who believe in others', rather than just their own, freedoms probably look at it a bit differently.... The government is already involved and they are trying to remove the government's involvement so that they can live their lives how they see fit and with whom they choose.
I know the weak sauce argument will come up that "no one is saying they can't be gay", "no one is saying they can't be with whom they choose", etc... Weak sauce! About as weak as the belief/argument, back in the day, that "we're not hurting the coons, we're keeping our kids safe by sending them to their own schools" or "we're not doing anything to them, we're exercising our right to do our own thing..." The list could go on and on and on........ Discrimination in this country is simply an abomination, considering the fact that this country was founded on beliefs stemming from the desire to not be discriminated against.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 17, 2008 - 05:30pm PT
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We don't have any recent public polling data on most of these. Field and Public Policy institute haven't published anything this month. The September numbers are here:
http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/
http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=839
The "No on 8" folks have really pushed hard in fundraising and ads the last few weeks, which suggests that their internals aren't as reassuring as the summer numbers.
Incredibly, the Obama campaign has enough money that its doing media buys in the Bay area-- TV ads! --even though there's zero chance of McCain getting anywhere close om Ca. Presumably the campaign is trying to help out downticket Dems in close races, along with key Proposition votes.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Oct 17, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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I agree Chaz. Like most of our problems, Supertopo bickering is pretty much the government's fault.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Oct 17, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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"Hence the constitutional amendment to skirt the judges and have the 'dicriminatory/hateful' Californian's votes actually count."
The Constitutional Amendment route is necessary because the prior attempt at a ban was in fact Un-Constitutional. And last time I looked, it is the Judicial Branch that is charged with making those determinations (not the voters).
What is particularly bizarre about this isn't really what side you take, but rather a simple majority vote (50% + 1 vote) is sufficient to alter basic Constitutional Rights (in Calif), yet to raise taxes takes a 66.6% majority.
Doesn't that strike you as backwards?
Who needs Constitutional Rights if you always find yourself in the majority?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 17, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
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Yes, it is backwards.
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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This is fun. :)
Re: Prop 8...if someone doesn't understand the history and sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, then what is the point in discussing homosexual "marriage" with them?
Sorry you folks think it means I hate homosexuals...that is your problem, deal with it.
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2008 - 07:34pm PT
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Ooops!
I have to change my vote on Prop 7.
Look who is against it:
California League of Conservation Voters
Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Technologies
Coalition for Clean Air
Environment California
Environmental Defense Fund
Natural Resources Defense Council
Sierra Club California
Union of Concerned Scientists
Hey Kleinhopper, you ripped me for opposing 7, how do you feel about it knowing you were also ripping those in the above list?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 07:48pm PT
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I don't think you guys realize that for a Prop calling for a constitutional amendment has to pass certain legal hurdles to even QUALIFY for the Prop to be allowed on the ballot.
It's not you can just make sh#t up, and it qualifies with a certain number of signatures...that's the normal Prop process.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 17, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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blue--
actually, an initiative doesn't have to pass much scrutiny at all. california voters have on numerous occasions voted for propositions that were clearly unconstitutional and thus had no chance of making it into actual law.
the main requirement for putting something on the ballot is money: the last time i checked, five million could get just about anything you wanted on the ballot. a number of cali firms specialize in the packaging and signature-gathering. then, for the votes, since cali is a media-buy state, you need a lot more dough.
there is considerable fighting over the precise wording of the summary that will appear on the ballot-- money alone can't buy that.
god, i can remember the newspapers calling me to give them some historical context about horsemeat as a table delicacy back when that horsemeat prop was on the ballot. just about anything is game.
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2008 - 07:56pm PT
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Kerwin, check your e-mail.
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Flashlight
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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Never mind, I sent it to your old addy. I'll re-send it.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Oct 17, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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I certainly understand that, bluering (not that what you say is entirely correct). But it really shouldn't be about what *other* Californian's want. Not when it comes to personal rights, such as what we're talking about here. I thought maybe we'd learned from some of our past mistakes. But, then again, we do torture people again too, so who knows... Maybe you don't understand that the whole nation thought slavery was cool and normal at one time too? I seem to remember we had a war over it, or something along those lines...? People not wanting to have it abolished, etc...
edit: Honestly, I think we should leave the whole thing up to Joe the Plumber tho....
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 17, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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Chaz. Prop 8 is unrelated to your argument. If you think the state should stay out of marriage recognition, then you should gather signature for just such a proposition.
The fact is that right now, same-sex couples have the right to marry in CA. Prop 8 would remove that.
You can either vote for prop 8 and remove their right to have a legally recognized marriage and all the rights and responsibilities that come with it (hospital visitation, property rights, etc); you can vote against it, to maintain those rights; or you can not vote on it (i.e. not really give a f*#k.)
Legal recognition of marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with any given religion or church's recognition of that marriage.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 17, 2008 - 08:42pm PT
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You guys have convinced me to vote YES on 8.
You have convinced me that The Government DOES have a legitimate power to decide who can and who cannot marry.
If The Government is going to decide something, it's better that it's decided by a vote of the people than by the edict of one judge.
A YES vote on 8 is a vote FOR the democratic process, it's a much bigger issue than gay rights.
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