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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 8, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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Last night at Glen Denny's slideshow he showed an image of Chris Jones and Gary Colliver looking at an early hand drawn topo of the Salathé Wall. The picture was taken in 1969. He said that up until that era, route information was largely relayed in an oral tradition, one climber to the next. It got me thinking about the origin of the modern topo and that it must have gone through an evolution over the years, in which many people participated.
So I ask... Is there a point in time, a place, a route, or a person from whom, or at which, this language was conceived? Was it from guides in Europe? When, and pertaining to what, was the very first climbing guide book published? And finally, do we have any copies or record of the earliest Yosemite topos?
Intrigued,
-Jerry
link to photo: http://www.glendenny.com/Portfolios/068.html
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crøtch
climber
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Good question, and a great photo.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I saw that at the FaceLift (and perhaps in his book?) and what struck me was how modern it seemed, that is, I could read and understand it without any problem.
The original Meyers select Topo's refers to the need to be able to communicate the routes to non-English speaking climbers coming to the Valley.
Roper's guide has a legend of topo symbols in it... I'll scan it later... apparently recommended by the european climbing authority...
Topos are mentioned in this Tejada-Flores piece appearing in Ascent in 1974
The Guidebook Problem
suspect they existed prior to that time period...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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They are actually comparing two topos of the Salathe' Wall in that photo. (nowadays we compare the Meyers/Reid and Supertopo versions!)
Royal Robbins also mentioned the existence of topos in Advanced Rockcraft.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here's an interesting problem...
I suspect that the topos that were drawn for Meyers' "Green Guide" were a composite of the best topos drawn by the community at that time... these topos survive into the "Yellow Guide" and the Meyers/Reid "Blue/Green Guide" (I can't tell those colors apart in that shade) and finally the Reid guide... there are enhancements as time goes on, but Falcon Press now "owns" the topos, topos that were generated by the community.
The dilemma is that Falcon Press needs to have ownership in order to be able to make at least cost for publishing the guide. They wouldn't touch common domain stuff with a 10 foot pole...
...on the other hand, they aren't anxious to change much, or even publish a new guide, and no one else can either, at least not using those topos and pictures...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Ed,
It's my understanding that Don Reid has the rights to the material in the guidebook, including topos, and he is free to use a new publisher if he chooses. My friend Brad looked over the contract and said this was the case.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Europeans were using topos for routes long before they became popular in the US (notably Yosemite). The first Topo guide to the Valley was not Meyer's guide (though George's book was certainly the progenitor of the modern topo guide).
In 1974 (two years before the first Meyers guide), three Brits: Dave Nicol, Pete Livesey and Keith Nannery published Rock Climbs in Yosemite, Topographic Drawings of Selected Routes.
And these topos were largely "drawn" from those informally circulating around Camp 4 (for many years). You can see the influence of existing "notational" styles commonly used by the English and Europeans when looking at the 1974 guide. The 1974 guide also is fairly error prone. The fact that was a "foriegn" guidebook to the valley is fairly evident in this and other ways. [The topo notations commonly used in the Valley differed and you can see these difference in the 1976 Meyers guide.]
Meyers, on the other hand, drew, gathered and redrew topos in the format commonly used by Valley regulars and brought a much higher level of accuracy to the project. When his 1976 loose leaf guide was redone and expanded 1982, the production quality and usefulness was greatly enhanced. Both the 1976 and 1982 Meyer's guides had a profound affect on guidebook design and production for years.
As far as "owning" any topos, the only thing a copyright of a topo can cover is the actual artwork, drawing and specific design of that particular topo. Since the topo only attempts to describe natural features that independently exist apart from the topo itself, anyone is free to draw and publish their own topo. Facts cannot be copyrighted, even if the discoverer of the "facts" is the only person with independent knowledge of these "facts."
Which, in plain English means, that once you publish a topo, route name, etc., anyone is free to use that name (FA info) and draw their own topo based upon your work. What is prohibited is merely reproducing someone else’s work directly.
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Flashlight
climber
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They did not evolve. They were created.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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This is a good topic. Ken will post up, I hope. He's posted some fairly old Valley topos in the past...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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This is a good question and the answer is not entirely clear-- there seem to have been multiple "first" topos. The oldest one I am familiar with is George Flagg's 1910 topo of the ascent of Huntington Ravine, reproduced in the Watermans' Yankee Rock and Ice. It is a line drawing, not that unlike the sort of topos Glenn Denny did in the 1960s.
I've also seen a few from the 1920s and 1930s for smaller English and French crags.
Lines traced over photographs became common pretty early in the 20th century.
So far as Yosemite is concerned, Jay Taylor puts the start of topographic sketches in the 1950s which seems plausible. His article "Mapping Adventure," is recommended, for those who have institutional subscriptions to the Journal of HIstorical Geography:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WJN-4HPK90H-1&_user=4420&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=4420&md5=ef6b42c6c2cf19052b6d7dd78fdbf5be
If you don't have research library access or a personal sub to JHG (and who would?), you can wait for his book to come out..
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jody,
> They did not evolve. They were created.
:-)
They were created, and then they evolved from that point!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Topos were both created and evolved.
Roper's 1970 Yosemite guide included nearly six pages on the "UIAA system" for describing climbs: "the information has been supplied by the UIAA and is printed verbatim." It includes a page of standard symbols for topos.
This suggests that detailed topos were well established in at least some of Europe by then, and there was enough interaction between U.S. and European climbers that they couldn't have been a new concept.
His comments: "Topos are highly detailed schematic route descriptions. Designed to supplement or even replace the written description, topos are controversial in that they tend to make climbing a bit easier on the brain. Routefinding problems are simplified; one know just where to expect a fixed piton or an off-route arch. They encourage climbers onto difficult routes because of their unshakable belief in the topo. Some topos have listed the actual pitons used per pitch. Topos assure speed records; they also lessen responsibility. No more querulous statements such as, 'I'll just look around this corner,' only, 'Here we are and where the hell's the belay bolt.' In other words, part of the adventure of climbing is removed. Topos are not used in this guidebook for the reasons mentioned above and also because this size book is impractical for them (topos are usually drawn on large sheets of paper)."
There seems to be something of a despairing element in what Roper says; the topo cuckoo may have been comfortably ensconced in many climbers' nests by then, if not earlier. Certainly the 1976 Meyers topo guide was well received, and I don't rememember anyone objecting to topos then on principle.
I couldn't find anything obvious in Basic Rockcraft or Advanced Rockcraft about topos.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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All I know is they're a great improvement over the text guides. I recall my old pinnacles guide book, and the epics following "faint animal trails". Those were the days.
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Gene
climber
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I have an old tourist map of Yosemite circa 1920s. It has a bird’s eye view of the Valley with features labeled. I have also seen old maps of hiking trails – specifically one of Yosemite Falls Trail, from maybe the 1930s – that is for all intent and purposes a hiker’s topo. Climbing topos are a natural progression, differing from bird’s eye views and such only in scope and purpose.
RGM
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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I just looked in a coffee table book by Stefano Ardito called "Mont Blanc, Discovery and Conquest of the Giant of the Alps." In it are engravings of the Mont Blanc Chain, showing routes up the mountains from the 1846 edition of Travellers in Switzerland and the Alps of Savoy and Piedmont.
"The first complete guide to Mont Blanc, published in 1863, was written by John Ball, President of the Alpine Club." The image is more of an overview that shows the glaciers and ridges of the range than an individual route topo.
A few pages later is an image of the cover of "A Guide to Chamonix and the Range of Mont Blanc, by Ed. Whymper." "Whymper, an excellent draftsman, demonstrated his skill and his detailed knowledge of the massif in the illustrations to his Guide to Chamonix and the Range of Mont Blanc, published in 1896." It shows one of the illustrations mentioned, a dotted line route overlay depicting the glacier terrain and camps. It akin to a photo overlay more than a rock climbing topo. So it looks like what Gene described above, but for mountaineering.
I'd be curious to see the other illustrations in this book.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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jerry-- thanks for scanning the ardito.
the ball guides covered the entire range of the alps and were the ac club standards. most of them included line drawings on engravings or (later) photographs.
the 1910 huntington ravine drawings are interesting because they label the cruxes. (they also included action drawings of particular sections), but no one seems to have used them much.
the topos that come later are more abstract-- there's a lot less attempt to offer a straightforward representation of the geology. it's an interesting transition.
work is bad this week, but if things calm down later ill try to get some scans up.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Cool information all. Thanks for the article link, klk!
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2008 - 01:45pm PT
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KLK, that mapping adventure article looks great. But $31.50 for a pdf? Yikes!
I'd love to see the original topo for the Nose. That would be rather interesting in this context.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 12:37am PT
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came across this topo in Robbins' account of the FA of NA Wall [url="http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1965/331_Robbins_NorthAmericaWall_aaj1965.pdf#search=%22Yosemite%22"]AAJ 1965 p331[/url]
You could certainly use the Roper topo legend to decipher this...
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jcques
Trad climber
quebec canada
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Nov 20, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
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I think that to find the first topo whe most go back in the twenty when Welzenbach defined a rating system for climbing. Before that, one can imagine that the topo was just a line on paper. Whit that topo,the climber just have to follow his nose to go to the summit. In that way, the climb was alway a first ascent. I think that, with the popularity of climbing, people want to notify there first ascent and want to have the credit for hit. So, anybody else can't say that he made the first ascent of the route. On that topo, I can imagine that they just put the minimum information, as more difficult is the route better climber he was. At the other hand, other people just want to go to the summit and have good time. They ask for more and more information on the topo to avoid any stress of not knowing what is going after. In a climb, we met guy who always critics the topo for his bad routefinding. They ask at their teacher more information to be "safe"
I think that the modern topo is made by the influence of these two ethics in climbing: adventure, to face the unknow, and sport, to follow bolts.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 01:33pm PT
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Here's some personal history...
My topo binder from the late '70's into the '80's
Some shots of old Meyer's topos (published by Robbins/Mountain Tools.)
Here is a topo of the NF Rostrum. MArk Blanchard and I had done the fist eight before I tried (in vain) to free an off-width (done as aid back then) and tore my hand open trying to grab a bong during a fall. What an arsine thing to do! We retreated with my hand bleeding profusely to the Mountain Room where Kauk and Yabo chatted us up for beta as to whether the route would go free. We assured them WE were the wrong people but others who had skill and talent could do the first nine. They did. Later MArk went back and soloed the route (no need for bleeders...) and together we drew this.
Finally... here is a topo I created years ago when I thought I would publish a topo guide. This is a pretty obscure climb in the ditch. This topo is so old the Letraset press-on lettering I used is coming off so the name is no longer there. What route is this?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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Simon,
That last topo looks like a route first climbed by TC in the 60s.
We'll see if anyone has a different answer...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Topos were pretty common in the Valley by the late sixties. Pratt's notebook had the route descriptions largely in topo form. Perhaps Don Lauria can comment more; I remember him writing about sketching a topo of the Dihedral Wall for their third ascent in a Summit Magazine article entitled "Dihedral Diary" around the time I was in high school (ca. 1967). Incidentally, that article was the first time I heard about the Cult of the Blue Cagoule.
I still have my personal notebooks where I tried to compile my own topos in the Valley and the Sierra, but my system was somewhat worse than that proposed by the UIAA in the 60's.
I also remember an article on routes on Pingora in the Vulgarian Digest, with what was described as the "route description of the future," being a topo of one of the climbs (Beanie Retrieve).
John
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 04:37pm PT
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TC and GC both had a hand in this lil' thing.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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Here is one of the topos from the 1974 British (Nicol, Livesey and Nannery) book.
I have more of these oldies if anyone wants to see 'em.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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I was such a climbing geek in middle school in the early 70's, I read Ropers Green Guide, cover to cover, a number of times. So when I first saw some topos I was really down on the idea, having bought into Ropers ethic of the classic verbal description being the right balance between information and leaving space for your own adventure.
Of course I grew out of that like we all did. Though I still enjoy wandering up a route without info occasionally.
Peter
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 05:32pm PT
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Geek! HA! I got ya beat!
I was in junior high at the same time as you and I too coveted the green guide. I knew that thing vertabtim cover-to-cover But.... and this is where I beat you for geekdom... I managed to get mine signed by...
wait for it....
Dean Caldwell!
(I'm not proud...)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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Simon,
Thanks for posting the Nicol / Livesey / Nannery topo - I have never seen one of those before.
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scuffy b
climber
On the dock in the dark
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:36pm PT
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Negative Pinnacle?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:53pm PT
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That's correct Scuffy. Does anyone do that anymore? I think it's free now...
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 20, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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Right on IhatePlastic!
Course my mom gave me a copy of Downward Bound for xmas in 8th grade, so I would have hero worshipped Dean Caldwell also. Good on ya.
On Sierra Club weekend outings to the Valley, folks would come up to me for obscure route recommendations just because I had memorized the green book.
Peter
Edit,
Negative Pinnacle, Damm straight its free, at least the Right Side first pitch, myself and Auggie Klein, 1979 or 80.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Nov 20, 2008 - 07:06pm PT
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Har!
behind the zion curtain it would be a proto/pre, arch,
in Yosemite, it's a negative pinnacle.
Locale informs jargon.
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#310
Social climber
Telluride, CO
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Nov 20, 2008 - 07:58pm PT
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In Chuck Kroger's "climbing book" which starts in 1967, there are climbing topos that I think he copied from someone else or did himself after he completed the climbs.
In the 1967 section are: El Cap West Buttress & Yosemite Point Buttress. Both drawn by Chuck - maybe traced?
In the 1968 section are: two different South Face Washington Column topos (one based on info from Pratt, Davis, Calfee, Miburn, Waterman and Kroger; Penny Nickle - East Face (FA by Kroger & Kep Stone) - all of these drawn by Chuck and one of Half Dome Direct that is a copy from somewhere else. There are many more topos - both hand drawn by Chuck and copies - most from Yosmeite routes - some of desert routes like Shiprock.the Shiprock topos are signed by ECA (Ernie C. Anderson) and Don Liska. So topos were in common use by 1967 in the Valley. Copies were being circulated and mutlitple topos by different "authors" existed of the same route. I don't know how to scan and post these topos but I have lots of 1967 to 1971 era topos. Kathy - Chuck's wife
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Double D
climber
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Nov 20, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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Peter wrote, " was such a climbing geek in middle school in the early 70's, I read Ropers Green Guide, cover to cover, a number of times. So when I first saw some topos I was really down on the idea, having bought into Ropers ethic of the classic verbal description being the right balance between information and leaving space for your own adventure.
Of course I grew out of that like we all did. Though I still enjoy wandering up a route without info occasionally."
Roper's guide rocked! His approach and descent descriptions are SO MUCH BETTER than the modern topo-guides that I've seen. Got me up the slabs approach of HD, down Washingston's Column bushwack, of course East Ledges...etc, etc etc.
Do like the pictures though... it's kinda like the difference between reading literature and a comic book though!
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 09:28am PT
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As others have stated, like most things in climbing 'modern' topos seem to have originated in Europe.By this I mean quite detailed "route maps", usually broken down by pitches, with prominent features identified. I believe that they were "formally" introduced into US climbing circles in the 1963 AAJ in an article on the first US ascent of the Walker Spur by John Harlin.If my memory is correct, in it he describes the European use of topos and one for the Walker accompanies the account. Prior to this there existed mimeographed hand-drawn sketches of various crags with general route lines drawn in, for places such as the Gunks, but these were not as detailed as the European topos, which also initially tended to be for longer alpine routes and were intended to be copied and brought along on the climb to avoid carrying the full guidebook. As for guidebooks in general, following the Alpine guides described earlier, English-language (I don't know much about guidebook evolution in other counties) guidebooks specifically for rock-climbing appeared in the late nineteenth century in Great Britain, written by early rock-climbing pioneers such as Haskett-Smith, the Abraham brothers, and HG Jones . These early books were a mix of adventure narrative, photo essay(especially the Abrahams' books), and route description, but by the early 20th Century very modern-style text guidebooks were being published in Britain, such as Laycock's for some gritstone climbs. In the US, I believe that the first published guidebook specifically focusing on rock climbing was Wilts' original guidebook to Tahquitz Rock in the early 50s---but may well be wrong on that. Prior there were a number of informal guides to various areas that were privately circulated, as well as route descriptions and some guidebook-type articles published in various club journals. While a few other rock-climbing guidebooks appeared in the intervening years, 1964/5 was a landmark period for the publication of US rock climbing guidebooks, with Roper's Yosemite guidebook and volumnes for 3 northeastern areas (the Gunks, Ragged Mountain, CT., and Quincy Quarries, MA), and I believe, one for the Leavenworth, Wash. areas all being released. That opened the floodgates.....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 21, 2008 - 10:16am PT
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Thanks Alan,
from Henry Kendall's article "The Walker Spur of the Grandes Jorasses" in [url="http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1963/376_kendall_walkerspur_aaj1963.pdf"]AAJ 1963 p376[/url]
'A further account of an ascent would not be warranted were it not for the fact that growing interest in Alpine climbing among American climbers makes it useful to publish a complete description of such a big climb in a journal accessible to those tempted to try an ascent. The European climbers, before starting on a major ascent, “do their homework” by assembling what in France is called a “topo”. A topo is not a topographic map but is as complete a route description as can be gathered by talking to other climbers who are familiar with the route. A topo is not a supplement to the usually inadequate guidebook description of a major climb-it supplants it entirely.'
emphasis added by me... (Henry is a fellow particle physicist, and a Nobel Prize winner, 1990)
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 21, 2008 - 11:50am PT
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I'm embarrassed, not only was it Kendall who wrote the article, but Harlin wasn't even on the climb---his partner was Hemming. So much for my memory......I guess Divad was right in his post on the Gunk's Reunion thread---I am getting old !!!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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Since Clint had not seen these British topos before I thought I'd end the week with a few more from that book.
Misty Wall and Snatch
Basketcase
Heart
Koko Ledge
Mouth
South Face Half Dome
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Nov 22, 2008 - 12:14am PT
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This is probably utterly unimportant, but I thought I'd throw in simply that I made a very high quality and detailed "topo" with lines and comments, and "x" marks for bolts, and so forth, when my young friend Ruwitch and I did our ascent of the Nose (in June 1967, just prior to Madsen's ascent...). I had not seen a topo of the route. That doesn't mean one didn't exist or hadn't been made, but I certainly knew of none.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 22, 2008 - 12:24am PT
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totally cool, Pat! do you remember where you got the idea for drawing such a thing?
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Chris Jones
Social climber
Glen Ellen, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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As young and woefully inexperienced climbers in Britain preparing to attempt the Walker Spur of the Grandes Jorasses in 1964, (then quite a big deal), one of our team stumbled across Henry Kendall's AAJ article about the climb and its wonderful topo. As there were no copying machines available to us, we hand-copied the topo and carried it with us up the climb. It was a god-send.
It seems that I was never able to find anything approaching this topo for other climbs in the Alps during that era. If the French had them, as Henry suggests they did, they did not share them over much with us.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Mar 25, 2010 - 02:15am PT
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Some not so Super Topos from an era when it was mostly oral history, word of mouth, hand me downs and sessions in Camp 4 and the quiet of the Yosemite Lodge. Beg, borrow and probably sometimes steal.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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Cool topos, Joe - thanks for sharing!
Your descent from Middle is down the Spires Gully.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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Thanks Clint- topo corrected.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Paradise Island
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Mar 25, 2010 - 06:06am PT
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Just after Don Lauria’s and my 8th ascent of the Nose, I made a detailed topo of the route, having taken notes for it along the way. I made several copies and certainly gave copies to Don, Dennis Hennek and probably Schmitz, Madsen, Bridwell and others. I can’t find a copy among my stuff, at least not yet. Don is probably the best bet for turning up a copy since Dennis shed much of his climbing stuff before moving to Hawaii, but I’ll ask him when we next speak.
I have a couple of samples of hand-drawn topos, both from about ’67.
S. Face of N. Dome
N. Buttress of Middle
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mar 25, 2010 - 09:42am PT
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Topos, of one kind or another, have been around since way before the printing press. Believe it or not, the 60's were quite modern, especially where the written word is concerned.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Joe's pictures remind me that we referred to these as "line drawings". The word "topo" was still in the future.
I had an entire notebook of Yosemite topos, mostly from routes done during 1966. This, I foolishly lent to a person I hardly knew who said he wanted to copy it, and never saw it again. There was some good stuff in it including the North Face of Lower Cathedral Rock, the last ascent.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Mar 25, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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Great topos, guido and BooDawg. Possibly of value to Ken and the Yosemite Climbing museum?
chim-
get Adobe photoshop are illustrator. Probably more basic and cheaper software out there though.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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digging all the old topos!
here's some scans from a 1935 brochure I picked up awhile back...
y'all have other old topos to add to this thread?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Guido! Brilliant!!
No wonder this used to be a multi-day climb:
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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a not-so-old topo, drawn by the brotherman...
BTW, is there a topo appreciation thread out there?
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Buju
Big Wall climber
the range of light
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These are incredible! Please keep 'em coming!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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interesting to notice that the 1934 topo looks a bit like the style of the 1910 huntington ravine topo.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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klk, is there an image of that topo floating around somewhere on the net?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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i don't have one. but you can get the book used in paperback, and it's probably one of the best histories of climbing in north america out there.
one you want for the shelf anyway, even if yr keeping the shelf short.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Right on...now I'm confused about what to exactly look for...
Title? link?
Thanks!
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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cool drawn topo, TK. Love to see topos with an artful approach.
I don't recall a topo appreciation thread, although there should be one...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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reproduced in Yankee Rock and Ice by Laura and Guy Waterman
drawn by George Flagg
Found researching climbing in the Mt. Washington area...
"Leafing through the 1910 edition, our eyes were suddenly arrested by the page headed "Huntingon Ravine, Aug. 20, 1910, Party: Geo. Flagg--Mr. Dennis--Mayo Tollman--Paul Bradley."... There followed to our wonder and joy, a series of eight drawings depicting an ascent of Pinnacle--eighteen years before the Underhill-Allis climb."
"In place of the sophisticated British classification of 'Difficult,' 'Severe,' and 'Extreme' or the modern U.S. numerical gradings (5.0 to 5.10 and beyond), the 1910 cartoonist marked crux moves as 'bad'--and one as 'very bad.'..."
"But the revelation was that the route details were explicitly delineated. We quickly realized that here was all the evidence required to trace the 1910 ascent with far better assurance than most purely written accounts of early climbs."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps the roots of the modern climbing topo are with late 19th century pen and ink line drawings in books about mountaineering, showing peaks, cols, valleys, and routes?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 18, 2014 - 07:01am PT
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lunch table discussion bump
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| Messages 1 - 62 of total 62 in this topic |
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