what's wrong with Scientology?


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Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 18, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
I'm too lazy to research it. Only weird thing I've seen is some Tom Cruise interview where he said "if I see a car accident, I have to stop, because I know I'm the only one who can help" or something like that.

Philadelphia, PA
Sep 18, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
See http://xenu.net/, including the FAQ

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2008 - 01:41pm PT


Not there
Sep 18, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
This famous article critical of Scientology has been awarded the Gerald Loeb Award for distinguished business and financial journalism, the Worth Bingham Prize and the Conscience in Media Awards from the American Society of Journalists and Authors.

Dingus Milktoast

Sep 18, 2008 - 01:49pm PT

"Battlefield Earth."

and then understand - those people think that's for real.

That's all you need bro.

Also, understand that cults are religious ponzi schemes designed to exploit the newer members for the benefit of the inner circle.


Not there
Sep 18, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
This is an article about a teenager being sued for calling Scientology a "cult."


Sep 18, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
Read "Diuretics" by L.Ron Hubbard. It's the science of matter over mind.

Would you trust someone who wears am ascot?

Dingus Milktoast

Sep 18, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
^^^^ Never and I mean NEVER trust a man wearing an ascot.


"Read "Diuretics" by L.Ron Hubbard. It's the science of matter over mind. "

Nah. Just PISS on it!

(that's GOLD JERRY, GOLD!)


Trad climber
So. Cal.
Sep 18, 2008 - 01:57pm PT
Can anyone who has a beef with Scientology tell us what's wrong with it, in your own words, without refering to an article someplace someone else wrote or a film on YouTube?

Or are you content to let others do your thinking for you?....Just like the Scientologists.

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
Just another group trying to tell us what and how to think. A very powerful group at that. Something like it's O.K. to be a rich, powerful prick, it doesn't matter how many little pricks you step on... When I research stuff like that , I look at money and motives, and membership.

Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
Anyone know a Scientologist?


Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
Yes. I do. or did.

Not there
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
L. Ron Hubbard wrote in a letter to his wife Polly (October 1938)

-"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."-
Quoted in Bare-faced Messiah: The True Story of L. Ron Hubbard (1987), p. 81

-"'know, we're all wasting our time writing this hack science fiction! You wanta make real money, you gotta start a religion!"-

As reported to Mike Jittlov by Theodore Sturgeon as a statement Hubbard made while at the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society clubhouse in the 1940s.

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
I always loved that quote and it makes good ammo for debate. When I look at these public Scientologists I just see more not to like, than I care to stomach. They are way too far into mass media manipulation.

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
I'm not at all a religious person, but I find a "religion" founded by a Science Fiction writer that uses a contraption(lack of a better word)to determine one's happiness a bit... um... "F*#ked up". What's next a religion based on Star Trek...

Oh.. wait...

Dingus Milktoast

Sep 18, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
chaz I already did. You're welcome.


Trad climber
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
For dingus:


Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Sep 18, 2008 - 02:57pm PT
all them cults are kinda scary in a way...

kinda like what I saw working for
big "P" in Ventura back in the 80's....

the cult leader would get up in front
of everyone and galvanize the audience
by demonizing sport climbing...everyone
applauds; too weird.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
Pretty much all religions are self serving schemes to one degree or another. Scientology just happens to be more blatant. At least there's no Scientology Fundamentalists blowing sh#t up.

.....in a single wide......
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
Chaz asked, "Can anyone who has a beef with Scientology tell us what's wrong with it, in your own words.."

Here is my story. 1980- was 23. Flew up from LA to Davis to interview for a job at UC Davis. I was supposed to have a place to stay for the night B4 I bussed over to Yosemite for a few weeks. Did the interview, but the place to stay fell through. Did not know what to do, so I did some buildering on campus to kill time. Fellow student chatting me up while I scale walls. He says he thinks he’s got a couch I can stay on.

Turns out to be his Scientology mentor's house and couch.. .

...and before I get to lay my head to pillow, I had to sit through a 2 hour Intro-to-Scientology session that evening. Mildly stimulating at best. OK- I want to go catch some zzzzz’s. Except- they would NOT let me be until I dropped $15 for their intro book. Communication- the book is titled. This their first step towards an enlighted self. Communicate well with others. Uh-huh.

Except i was staying in Yosemite and Tuolumne for 2 weeks, and needed every cent I had. I fought hard to keep my greenbacks, but was no match for their relentless mental arm-twisting. I ponied up the $15, got a safe night’s sleep, plus a ride to the bus station.

I actually perused the book a little while in Tuolumne. I mentioned it (and Scientology) to Randy Vogel, and he snapped me back to reality. Told me in no uncertain terms that Scientology was absolute bullsh*t. I knew this, but was already mildly under the spell. Never looked back, but I sure remember that taste of relentless mental arm-twisting.
Dingus Milktoast

Sep 18, 2008 - 03:05pm PT
No FET they have them too!

The Fundy Scientologists allow their members to marry mulitple aliens.


Sep 18, 2008 - 03:07pm PT
Might be fun to watch them shag their alien spouses.

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
OK... So this thread got me to reading about Scientology, to see what the deal is. All I can say is what a f*#king fruit loop! Anyone who follows him/believes in this crap is a f*#king fruit loop too. Wow!

At least we can take solace in the fact that they are fruity enough that the handing out of the Koolaid should be soon and they'll all be dead.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:19pm PT

Trad climber
new york, NY
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:24pm PT
"Church, cult; cult, church. Whats the difference? Just another way to be bored on a Sunday."

-Bart Simpson


Not there
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:40pm PT
Brainwashing and Mind Control Methods

Relaxation, sleep depravation, meditation creates a higher state of suggestibility.
love bombing
Diet that has no protein, removes the ability to reason and use logic. (Self think.)
Isolation within cult
financial commitment
Removal from their former life; new name/location, status...
group pressure
uncompromising rules
Dr. Rock

Ice climber
Castle Rock
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
It never stops amazing me how people can make broad sweeping statements on topics they know absolutely nothing about.
Wait, thats ther definition of an internet forum, sorry.
There are volumes of good info there, can anybody explain one of the millions of concepts?
I did not think so.

But this is the norm, so don't worry.

No, I am not a Scientologist.
Just someone with an open mind.


Social climber
Truckee, CA
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
What, pray tell, is "love bombing,"

and where do I sign?

Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
" All I can say is what a f*#king fruit loop! Anyone who follows him/believes in this crap is a f*#king fruit loop too. Wow!"

amazing isn't it?

you gotta read Eric Hoffer/True Believer -
all about fanaticism and mass movements;
a tiny book it explains so much in language
for everyone.

For instance, I feel we are in the "middle"
of the biggest and most powerful mass movement
ever, it's called Consumerism; so omnipresent
and woven into the fabric of American culture as be
*almost* invisible...

Fanatics = scary people.


Trad climber
So. Cal.
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
Thanks, Sewellymon.

That told me more than anything so far.

Does Scientology have anything to do with *EST* (Werner Erhard's hustle)?

Not there
Sep 18, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
Dr. Rock,
L. Ron Hubbard Jr." is my expert. If you happen to be part of this religion, then get use to me calling it a cult. This link is L. Ron Hubbard Jr.'s take on his Dad's creation.


You do know that practicing Scientology is banned in Greece, France, Germany and the United Kingdom.


Sep 18, 2008 - 03:51pm PT
"For instance, I feel we are in the "middle"
of the biggest and most powerful mass movement
ever, it's called Consumerism; so omnipresent
and woven into the fabric of American culture as be
*almost* invisible... "

Interesting thought.
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
up Yonder (the edge of Treason)
Sep 18, 2008 - 04:38pm PT
Maybe Scientology is ok...I dunno....I just don't need any more cults around. I mean,Boise is already overrun with Mormons, fer crying out loud...

Trad climber
Sep 18, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
Its almost as bad as "Science."

The world isn't 10,000 years old, YARIGHT! Idiots.

Big Wall climber
Sep 18, 2008 - 07:14pm PT
More than anything, it kind of reminds me of the Heaven's Gate kooks! Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll find Tom and clan in the hotel in Clearwater, "waiting for the aliens".... You can never have too many cult mass-suicides... hahaha
Dingus Milktoast

Sep 18, 2008 - 08:59pm PT

Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Nunya, America
Sep 18, 2008 - 09:02pm PT
Arrrrgh! Avast there, & belay that Foolharrrdiness!


Sep 18, 2008 - 09:06pm PT
Dooooooodes, you found a way around the avatar thingy.

Social climber
Sep 18, 2008 - 10:26pm PT
hey there nafarius... and all... say, i got something mighty seriuos to add to all this:

nefarious... say, i really like that "punching-kittycat-icon" you got there by your name... keep it up....

cat's are so alert and intense sometimes, aren't they?
hmmmmm, come to think of it--so are some of he cats around here, as well... :)


belgrade, mt
Sep 18, 2008 - 11:53pm PT
Yeah, we should put down people we don't understand and try to create a culture of intolerance toward them and to those who have sympathy for them.

Or... we could take it one step further and refuse to talk to their leaders until they concede that democracy (shoot, I mean our ideas whatever they are - no reference to Iran in here) is better. That'll build bridges and create a better world, hell yeah it will.

Now if you'll excuse me some fat old guy, who invented the interweb, told me to buy a Prius or the world would end. I've also got to get my pressed organic Patagonia pants on so I look cool at the farmers market. After that I'm going to hang with my friends and laugh at people I don't care to understand because I've dismissed them based on one or two labels instead of trying to understand the whole picture. Hey it makes me feel better so don't be a hater about it.


Mountain climber
Sep 19, 2008 - 01:06am PT
My first girl friend got picked up by a Scientologist offshoot group. After a short while she started banging her "auditor". I've been wounded ever since. ha, and a little negative.

Here's a church if you need one:
http://www.coltranechurch.org/ All are welcome and hierarchy and beliefs are transparent which is a good policy in this day of false prophets.

by the way, how the hell do you guys embed those moving images? That boxing cat is cool not to mention the buxom blond on another thread :)

Trad climber
east bay, CA
Sep 19, 2008 - 02:29am PT

There's a sucker born every minute. Religion proves this in spades.

Next question...

Stoked OW climber
San Jose, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
I don't think so many people are naturally "suckers"... but the basic human need to be accepted and appreciated is strong enough to override the otherwise better judgment of many folks.

Sep 19, 2008 - 08:39pm PT

A cheater will be sent to a cheater.
Dr. Rock

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
I am a curious person, I love to explore altered states.
So anything like acid, shrooms, hasish, pot, liquor, vicodin, morophine, scientology, om, buhhda, heroin, qualudes, coke, unprotected sex with multiple partners, i am good for all of the above.

Don't get hung up on one thing, explore a little of each, then die.

if you want me to tell you what i gleaned from the scientology system for basically free, i will tell you.

the rest of the stuff you probably already have experience with.

I love the Moody Blues, they are Seizmologist with the L Ron Hubcap.

It is basically this.

Scientology and Dianetics are way f*#king cool if you actually take the time to read the books.

But the people involved in the org?

The all SUCK!

Therein, lies the main problem with Scientology.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Sep 19, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
Whatever happened to the Moonies? Are they still around? Back around 1980 they had
a house on Bush St in SF. Someone said we could pop in for a free dinner, so we went
to check it out. They made us take our shoes off at the front door, and they collected
them all and put them in a closet. That made me a wee bit nervous. Then we listened to a
talk for a while before we were served dinner. After dinner, we were literally swarmed upon
by teams of three-on-one, each team including at least 1 very attractive young woman.
They were trying to get us to leave that evening to go to Booneville for the weekend, and
they were really pouring it on thick! It was like: "Come on, the bus is leaving in 30 minutes!
We'll have such a good time"... The girls were being very flirtatious. I was 19 at the time,
and yet this scared the living hell out of me, because by then I had already heard all
the stories that had already made the headlines, including families kidnapping their own
kids, and hiring "de-programmers" to try to undo the brainwashing. Anyway, we had a hard
time getting our shoes back so we could leave, and when we did, we were very glad to get outta there!
Dr. Rock

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2008 - 10:06pm PT
Anybody remember EST?
What a bunch of sh#t that was, I mean if you thought Seizmologist'se were half baked.

The there were the Hare Krishnas at the Santa Cruz Boardwalk and SF Airport for years and years.

Hey, what ever happened to that Jim Jones guy?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Sep 19, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
Jim Jones?

I heard he died in a rock-climbing accident when a titanium bolt broke...
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Nunya, America
Sep 19, 2008 - 10:14pm PT
Hey, Ya'll want some Kool-Aid ?..............
Dr. Rock

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2008 - 10:21pm PT
Was that the 3/8 inch space age aluminum whose real diameter was reduced to 5/16 inch by way of the stress concentrating grooves?
Dr. Rock

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2008 - 10:22pm PT
Was that the 3/8 inch space age aluminum bolt whose real diameter was reduced to 5/16 inch by way of the stress concentrating grooves?

Those Nasa enginners took one look at that thing and told me "Please do not call us again until you have a real problem. The design flaws are so gross and overwhelming, we are insulted that you would waste our time."

These are examples of Stress Concentrators.
Does the last one remind you of anything?


May 11, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
Amazing how many celebrities are members of the "Church"


Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
May 11, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
Why are scientologists more deserving of derision than anyone else? Yes, thier religion is made up...so what?

Think about ANY religion. Do you honestly expect me to believe that some supernatural being impregnated some young chick 2000 years ago? And, that the offspring from this supernatural trist was the savior of all mankind, who was to be nailed to a cross (and that this act somehow absolves me of a "sin" I have no recollection of?), die and be brought back to life three days later, AND now sits at the right hand of said being who impregnated his mother in the first place? AND said Being and Son are in fact the SAME GUY????

Sorry, but I'd almost rather hang out with Xenu...
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
North of the Owyhees
May 11, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
Cults are cults.
The only good reason to have anything to do with a cult is for a hot girl.
Once laid.......hmmm, GOODBYE CULT!!!!!

Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 11, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
"Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool."

    Mark Twain

Boulder climber
May 12, 2009 - 12:11am PT
jeez, who keeps dredgin this crap?

oh well, as long as were here,
lets see if i can imitate a seizmologist rock climber with my limited knowledge of that deadly cult....

"i confronted the rock with full TR's, getting into comm with the surface friction, then constricting my anchor points to the summit and the deck, i then went exterior at the crux move, but became intoverted when the pink granite snake reminded me of a session that went bad, and L3r repair list was done but the past life engram was hung up on the secondary loss of the #4 camelot, in which an earlier similar incident could not be unlocked, due to symatic pain caused by a bad touch assist.
But I went clear and OT'd final dyno..."

hows that?

thats about as much game as i got on that subject.

Boulder climber
May 12, 2009 - 12:46am PT
They say you can Go Clear just by reading the Scientology Dictionary all the way thru

So lets try it:

A=A=A=A: anything equals anything equals anything. This is the way the reactive mind thinks, irrationally identifying thoughts, people, objects, experiences, statements, etc., with one another where little or no similarity actually exists. Everything is everything else. Mr. X looks at a horse knows it’s a house knows it’s a schoolteacher. So when he sees a horse he is respectful.

aberration: a departure from rational thought or behavior. From the Latin, aberrare, to wander from; Latin, ab, away, errare, to wander. It means basically to err, to make mistakes, or more specifically to have fixed ideas which are not true. The word is also used in its scientific sense. It means departure from a straight line. If a line should go from A to B, then if it is aberrated it would go from A to some other point, to some other point, to some other point, to some other point, to some other point, and finally arrive at B. Taken in its scientific sense, it would also mean the lack of straightness or to see crookedly as, in example, a man sees a horse but thinks he sees an elephant. Aberrated conduct would be wrong conduct, or conduct not supported by reason. Aberration is opposed to sanity, which would be its opposite.

acceptance level: the degree of a person’s willingness to accept people or things freely, monitored and determined by his consideration of the state or condition that those people or things must be in for him to be able to do so.

acknowledgment: something said or done to inform another that his statement or action has been noted, understood and received. “Very good,” “okay,” and other such phrases are intended to inform another who has spoken or acted that his statement or action has been accepted. An acknowledgment also tends to confirm that the statement has been made or the action has been done and so brings about a condition not only of communication but of reality between two or more people. Applause at a theater is an acknowledgment of the actor or act plus approval. Acknowledgment itself does not necessarily imply an approval or disapproval or any other thing beyond the knowledge that an action or a statement has been observed and is received.

action phrase: a word or phrase in an engram or lock which causes the individual to perform involuntary actions on the time track. See also command value.

affinity: degree of liking or affection or lack of it. Affinity is a tolerance of distance. A great affinity would be a tolerance of or liking of close proximity. A lack of affinity would be an intolerance of or dislike of close proximity. Affinity is one of the components of understanding. See also ARC.

ally: someone who protects a person who is in a weak state and becomes a very strong influence over the person. The weaker person, such as a child, even partakes the characteristics of the ally so that one may find that a person who has, for instance, a bad leg, has it because a protector or ally in his youth had a bad leg. The word is from French and Latin and means to bind together.

alter-isness: the consideration which introduces change, and therefore time and persistence, into an as-isness to obtain persistency. (One of the basic manifestations of alter-isness is a lie or deceit: when someone lies he changes the truth into a lie in order to maintain the existence of the lie.) See also as-isness.

analytical mind: the conscious, aware mind which thinks, observes data, remembers it and resolves problems. It would be essentially the conscious mind as opposed to the unconscious mind. In Dianetics and Scientology the analytical mind is the one which is alert and aware and the reactive mind simply reacts without analysis. See also reactive mind.

analyzer: the analytical mind.

anaten: an abbreviation of analytical attenuation, meaning diminution (lessening) or weakening of the analytical awareness of an individual for a brief or extensive period of time. If sufficiently great, it can result in unconsciousness. (It stems from the restimulation of an engram which contains pain and unconsciousness.) See also engram; restimulation.

anchor points: dimension points which demark (limit) the outermost boundaries of a space or its corners. Anchor points, along with the viewpoint, are responsible for space. An anchor point is a dimension point that stays rather still, to keep the space created. See also dimension; viewpoint.

apathy: a complete withdrawal from person or people. There is no real attempt to contact oneself and no attempt to contact others. A very docile and obedient, if sick, state of not-beingness. It is near death or an imitation of death. For example, a person in apathy would say, “What’s the use? All is lost.”

apparency: the way someone or something appears to be, where this is different from the way that they actually are.

arbitrary: something which is introduced into a situation without regard to the data of the situation.

ARC: a word made from the initial letters of Affinity, Reality and Communication, which together equate to Understanding. It is pronounced by stating its letters, A-R-C. To Scientologists it has come to mean good feeling, love or friendliness, such as, “He was in ARC with his friend.” One does not, however, fall out of ARC; he has an ARC break. See also ARC break.

ARC break: a sudden drop or cutting of one’s affinity, reality or communication with someone or something. Upsets with people or things come about because of a lessening or sundering (breaking apart) of affinity, reality or communication or understanding. It’s called an ARC break instead of an upset, because if one discovers which of the three points of understanding have been cut, one can bring about a rapid recovery in the person’s state of mind. See also ARC.

ARC triangle: a triangle which is a symbol of the fact that affinity, reality and communication act together as a whole entity and that one of them cannot be considered unless the other two are also taken into account. Without affinity there is no reality or communication. Without reality or some agreement, affinity and communication are absent. Without communication there can be no affinity or reality. It is only necessary to improve one corner of this very valuable triangle in Scientology in order to improve the remaining two corners. See also ARC.

as-is: to view anything exactly as it is, without any distortions or lies, at which moment it vanishes and ceases to exist. See also as-isness.

as-isness: the condition of immediate creation without persistence, and is the condition of existence which exists at the moment of creation and the moment of destruction, and is different from other considerations in that it does not contain survival.

assist: a simple, easily done process that can be applied to anyone to help them recover more rapidly from accidents, mild illness or upsets; any process which assists the individual to heal himself or be healed by another agency by removing his reasons for precipitating (bringing on) and prolonging his condition and lessening his predisposition (inclination or tendency) to further injure himself or remain in an intolerable condition. See also Touch Assist.

attention: interest which has become fixed.

attention unit: a quantity of awareness existing in the mind. For example, when a person has a lot of attention on some incident, one could say he has a lot of attention units on that incident. See also attention.

auditing: the application of Dianetics or Scientology processes and procedures to someone by a trained auditor. The exact definition of auditing is: The action of asking a person a question (which he can understand and answer), getting an answer to that question and acknowledging him for that answer. Auditors stick to the Auditor's Code.

auditor: a person trained and qualified in applying Dianetics and/or Scientology processes and procedures to individuals for their betterment; called an auditor because auditor means one who listens.

Auditor’s Code: a collection of rules (do’s and don’ts) that an auditor follows while auditing someone, which ensures that the preclear will get the greatest possible gain out of the processing that he is having. It was evolved from years of observing processing.

automaticity: something set up automatically to run without further attention from yourself. There are three kinds of automaticities: those which create things, those which make things persist and those which destroy things.

awareness: the ability to perceive the existence of.

axioms: statements of natural laws on the order of those of the physical sciences.

bank: see engram bank.

banky: being influenced by bank and displaying bad temper, irritability, lack of cooperation and the signs of dramatization; irrational. See also dramatization; engram bank.

basic: the first experience recorded in mental image pictures of a particular type of pain, sensation, discomfort, etc. The first engram on any chain of similar engrams. Basic is simply earliest. See also chain; engram.

basic-basic: the first engram on the time track. See also engram; time track.

basic personality: the individual himself. The basic individual is not a buried unknown or a different person, but an intensity of all that is best and most able in the person.

beefing up: a phrase which describes the sensation of increasing solidity of masses in the mind. When this occurs, we say “the bank is beefing up.” See also mental mass.

beingness: the assumption or choosing of a category of identity. Beingness is assumed by oneself or given to oneself or is attained. Examples of beingness would be one’s own name, one’s profession, one’s physical characteristics, one’s role in a game-each and all of these could be called one’s beingness. See also conditions of existence.

between-lives area: the experiences of a thetan during the time between the loss of a body and the assumption of another.

black panther mechanism: one of the five ways in which a human being reacts toward a source of danger. The term derives its name from an example given in the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health: A particularly black-tempered black panther is sitting on the stairs and a man named Gus is sitting in the living room. Gus wants to go to bed. But there is the black panther. The problem is to get upstairs. There are five things that Gus can do about this panther: (1) he can go attack the black panther; (2) he can run out of the house and flee the black panther; (3) he can use the back stairs and avoid the black panther; (4) he can neglect the black panther; and (5) he can succumb to the black panther. These are the five mechanisms: attack, flee, avoid, neglect or succumb. All actions can be seen to fall within these courses.

blow: a colloquialism (informal expression) for a sudden departure. It is usually used to describe either the sudden dissipation (vanishing) of mass in the mind with an accompanying feeling of relief, or someone leaving, ceasing to be where he should really be, or just ceasing to be audited. See also mental mass.

body: the organized physical composition or substance of an animal or man, whether living or dead. The body is the thetan’s communication center. It is a physical object. It is not the being himself. See also thetan.

boil-off: becoming groggy and seeming to sleep; some period of the person’s life wherein he was unconscious has been slightly restimulated. See also restimulation.

book auditor: someone who has successfully applied Dianetics and/or Scientology from a book to help someone else and who has been certified for doing so.

Book One: The first book published on Dianetics, titled: "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health".

bouncer: an engramic command (such as “Can’t stay here” or “Get out!”) which sends the preclear up the track toward present time. See also present time; time track.

Bridge, The: the route to Clear and OT, which we call the Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart. It is a term originating in early Dianetics days to symbolize travel from unknowingness to revelation. See also Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart.

bullbaiting: a method of drilling whereby a coach attempts to find certain actions, words, phrases, mannerisms or subjects that cause the student doing the drill to become distracted from the drill by reacting to the coach. As a bullfighter attempts to attract the bull’s attention and control the bull, so does the coach attempt to attract and control the student’s attention, however the coach flunks the student whenever he succeeds in distracting the student from the drill and then repeats the action until it no longer has any affect on the student.

button(s): items, words, phrases, subjects or areas that are easily restimulatable in an individual by the words or actions of other people, and which cause him discomfort, embarrassment or upset, or make him laugh uncontrollably. See also restimulation.

bypass circuit: see demon circuit.

bypassed charge: when one gets a lock, a lower, earlier incident restimulates. That is bypassed charge. It isn’t the auditor bypassing it. One handled later charge that restimulated earlier charge. The auditor touches on A, and B goes into restimulation out of the pc’s consciousness. This causes an irritated, ARC-breaky, upset feeling. The pc reacts very badly. He has been hit by a mystery. There is no apparent reason (to him) why he feels this way. This is what bypassed charge means. “Earlier charge restimulated and not seen” would be another name for it. See also ARC break; charge; restimulation.

can’t have: a depriving of self or others of a substance or action or things.

case: a general term for a person being treated or helped. It also refers to his condition, which is monitored by the content of his reactive mind. A person’s case is the way he responds to the world around him by reason of his aberrations.

case gain: the improvements and resurgences a person experiences from auditing; any case betterment according to the pc. See also case.

case supervision: referring to the actions of the Case Supervisor. The C/S is the auditor’s “handler.” He tells the auditor what to do, keeps him corrected, keeps the lines straight and keeps the auditor calm and willing and winning. The C/S directs what auditing actions are done for each individual preclear under his care. All case supervision is for the benefit of the preclear.

Case Supervisor: see case supervision.

cause: could be defined as emanation (something coming forth from a source). It could be defined also, for purposes of communication, as source-point. See also communication.

cause-distance-effect: see communication.

cave in: a state of mental and/or physical collapse to the extent that individuals cannot function causatively. The individuals are quite effect. A US Western term which symbolized mental or physical collapse as like being at the bottom of a mine shaft or in a tunnel when the supports collapsed and left persons under tons of debris.

CCHs: (stands for Control, Communication, Havingness) processes which bring a person into better control of his body and surroundings, put him into better communication with his surroundings and other people, and increase his ability to have things for himself. They bring him into the present, away from his past problems.

chain: a succession of incidents, occurring at various intervals along the time track, that are related to one another by some similarity of either subject, general location, people or perception. Such a succession of similar incidents may span a brief period or a very long period of time. See also incident; time track.

charge: harmful energy or force accumulated and stored within the reactive mind, resulting from the conflicts and unpleasant experiences that a person has had. Auditing discharges this charge so that it is no longer there to affect the individual. See also reactive mind.

circuit: a part of an individual’s bank that behaves as though it were someone or something separate from him and that either talks to him or goes into action of its own accord, and may even, if severe enough, take control of him while it operates. See also engram bank.

classification: an award earned by an auditor that entitles him to audit certain levels of processes, and that shows that he has attained the ability and skill to do so by actual test.

Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart: the route to Clear and the OT states beyond, also called The Bridge to Total Freedom, or The Bridge. Classification means that there are certain actions required to be done or conditions to be attained before an individual is classified for a particular training level and allowed to progress up. Gradation means a gradual grade up, just as there are grades to a road or there are grades to steps. Awareness refers to one’s own awareness, which improves as one progresses up. On the right side of this chart there are various steps called the States of Release. The left-hand side of the chart describes the very important steps of training on which one gains the knowledge and abilities necessary to deliver the Grades of Release to another. It is a guide for the individual from the point where he first becomes dimly aware of a Scientologist or Scientology and shows him how and where he should move up in order to make it. Scientology contains the entire map for getting the individual through all the various points on this gradation scale and for getting him across the Bridge to higher states of existence. See also Bridge, The; Grades of Release.

cleaning a clean: attempting to clean up or deal with something that has already been cleaned up or dealt with or that wasn’t troublesome to the person in the first place.

Clear: the name of a state achieved through auditing or an individual who has achieved this state. A Clear is a being who no longer has his own reactive mind. A Clear is an unaberrated person and is rational in that he forms the best possible solutions he can on the data he has and from his viewpoint. The Clear has no engrams which can be restimulated to throw out the correctness of computation by entering hidden and false data.

coach: (verb and noun) to train intensively by instruction, demonstration and practice. In training drills, one twin (a student’s study partner) is made the coach and the other the student. The coach, in his coaching actions, coaches the student to achieve the purpose of the drill. He coaches with reality and intention, following exactly the materials pertaining to the drill to get the student through it. When this is achieved the roles are then reversed-the student becoming the coach and the coach becoming the student.

co-audit: an abbreviation for cooperative auditing. It means a team of any two people who are helping each other reach a better life with Dianetics or Scientology processing.

Code of a Scientologist: a code which governs the activity of a Scientologist in general. It was evolved from many years of observation and experience and is subscribed to by leading Scientologists.

cog: cognition.

cognition: a new realization of life. Cognitions result in higher degrees of awareness and consequently greater abilities to succeed with one’s endeavors in life.

comm: communication.

command value: a degree of authority, power or control over something. For example, a statement in an engram can exercise a command value over the analytical mind of an individual. See also action phrase; analytical mind; engram.

communication: the interchange of ideas across space. Its fullest definition is the consideration and action of impelling an impulse or particle from source-point across a distance to receipt-point, with the intention of bringing into being at the receipt-point a duplication and understanding of that which emanated from the source-point. The formula of communication is cause, distance, effect, with intention, attention and duplication with understanding. See also cause; effect.

communication bridge: an auditing procedure which closes off the process one is running, maintains ARC, and opens up the new process on which one is about to embark. It is used so that a pc will not be startled by change, for if one changes too rapidly in a session, one sticks the preclear in the session every time. He is given some warning, and that is what a communication bridge is for.

Communication Course: a Scientology course in which one gains the ability to effectively communicate with others.

communication lag: the length of time intervening between the asking of the question by the auditor and the reply to that specific question by the preclear. The question must be precise; the reply must be precisely to that question. It does not matter what intervenes in the time between the asking of the question and the receipt of the answer. The preclear may outflow, jabber, discuss, pause, hedge, disperse, dither or be silent; no matter what he does or how he does it, between the asking of the question and the giving of the answer, the time is the communication lag.

communication line: the route along which a communication travels from one person to another; the line on which particles flow; any sequences through which a message of any character may go.

conditions of existence: there are three conditions of existence. These three conditions comprise life. They are Be, Do and Have. The condition of being is defined as the assumption (choosing) of a category of identity. An example of beingness could be one’s own name. Another example would be one’s profession. The second condition of existence is doingness. By doingness is meant action, function, accomplishment, the attainment of goals, the fulfillment of purpose or any change of position in space. The third condition is havingness. By havingness is meant owning, possessing, being capable of commanding, positioning, taking charge of objects, energies or spaces. These three conditions are given in an order of seniority (importance) where life is concerned.

confront: to face without flinching or avoiding. Confront is actually the ability to be there comfortably and perceive.

confusion: any jumble of things, communications, actions, thoughts, etc., that don’t apparently make sense. More broadly, a confusion is random motion.

consideration: thinking, believing, supposing, postulating. Consideration is the highest capability of life, taking rank over the mechanics of space, energy and time.

control: the ability to start, change and stop things at one’s own choice. (With processing, a person is capable of controlling a wider and wider sphere of things.) See also cycle of action.

counseling: see pastoral counseling.

counter-effort: the effort of the environment (physical) against the individual. The individual’s own effort is simply called effort. The efforts of the environment are called counter-efforts.

create: make, manufacture, construct, postulate, bring into beingness.

create-counter-create: to create something against a creation; to create one thing and then create something else against it, bringing about the destruction of the first creation.

create-create-create: create again continuously one moment after the next. This is survival. See also create.

cut comm: cut (stop, halt) communication.

cycle: from the beginning to the conclusion of an intended action. See also cycle of action.

cycle of action: the sequence that an action goes through, wherein the action is started, is continued for as long as is required and then is completed as planned. See also control.

datum: anything of which one could become aware, whether the thing existed or whether he created it.

deaberrate: to remove aberration. See also aberration.

delusion: what one person thinks is, but others don’t necessarily; a reality for one person out of agreement with others.

demon: a mechanical mechanism set up by an engram which takes over a portion of the analyzer and acts as an individual being. A bona fide demon is one who gives thoughts voice or echoes the spoken word interiorly or who gives all sorts of complicated advice like a real, live voice exteriorly. See also analyzer; circuit; demon circuit.

demon circuit: part of an engram which is set up and has a specific command. “You’ve got to control yourself” is typical of one of these circuits. See also circuit; demon.

denyer: an engramic command which, literally translated, means that the engram doesn’t exist. “I’m not here,” “This is getting nowhere,” “I must not talk about it,” “I can’t remember,” etc. A command which makes the preclear feel there is no incident present. See also incident.

destimulate: to settle out; to take away restimulation. See also restimulation.

Dianetics: Dianetics spiritual healing technology. It addresses and handles the effects of the spirit on the body and can alleviate such things as unwanted sensations and emotions, accidents, injuries and psychosomatic illnesses (ones that are caused or aggravated by mental stress). Dianetics means “through the soul” (from Greek dia, through, and nous, soul). It is further defined as “what the soul is doing to the body.”

differentiation: the ability to “tell the difference” between one person and another, one object and another. It indicates a person is sane. As soon as he begins to confuse his wife with his mother, or his coat with his father’s coat, he is on the road toward insanity.

dimension: the distance from the point of view to the anchor point that is in space; a measure of spatial extent, especially width, height or length. See also anchor points.

dissemination: spreading or scattering broadly. It comes from the Latin word disseminatus, which means “to scatter seed.” When we talk about the dissemination of Dianetics and Scientology, we mean spreading information on Dianetics and Scientology broadly, using books, tapes and other works by L. Ron Hubbard.

DMSMH: Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health.

doing(ness): the action of creating an effect. An effect in creation is action. See also conditions of existence.

downscale: down the Tone Scale; in a state of decreased awareness; into the lower-level emotions, such as apathy, anger, etc. See also apathy; Tone Scale.

dramatization: the duplication of engramic content, entire or in part, by an aberree (aberrated person) in his present-time environment. Aberrated conduct is entirely dramatization. The degree of dramatization is in direct ratio to the degree of restimulation of the engrams causing it. When dramatizing, the individual is like an actor playing his dictated part and going through a whole series of irrational actions. See also aberration; engram; restimulation.

dub-in: any unknowingly created mental picture that appears to have been a record of the physical universe but is, in fact, only an altered copy of the time track. It is a phrase taken from the motion picture industry meaning to record dialogue and various sounds and then integrate them into the film after it has been shot.

dwindling spiral: a phenomenon of the ARC triangle whereby when one breaks some affinity, a little bit of the reality goes down, and then communication goes down, which makes it impossible to get affinity as high as before; so a little bit more gets knocked off affinity, and then reality goes down, and then communication. This is the dwindling spiral in progress, until it hits the bottom-death-which is no affinity, no communication and no reality. See also ARC triangle.

dynamic(s): there could be said to be eight urges (drives, impulses) in life. These we call dynamics. These are motives or motivations. We call them the eight dynamics. These are urges for survival as or through (1) self, (2) sex and family, (3) groups, (4) all mankind, (5) living things (plants and animals), (6) the material universe, (7) spirits, and (8) infinity or the Supreme Being.

effect: receipt-point and what is received at the receipt-point. See also cause; communication.

E-meter: the Hubbard Electrometer is a religious artifact used in the Church confessional. It, in itself does nothing, and is used by ministers only, to assist parishioners in locating areas of spiritual distress or travail. The E-meter is not intended or effective for diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease. It passes a tiny current through the preclear's body. This current is influenced by the mental masses, pictures, circuits and machinery. When the unclear pre-clear thinks of something, these mental items shift and this registers on the meter.

emotional tone: the general condition of an individual. See also Tone Scale.

end phenomena: those indicators in the pc and the meter which show that a chain or a process is ended. See also chain; indicators.

engram: a mental image picture which is a recording of an experience containing pain, unconsciousness and a real or fancied threat to survival. It is a recording in the reactive mind of something which actually happened to an individual in the past and which contained pain and unconsciousness, both of which are recorded in the mental image picture called an engram. It must, by definition, have impact or injury as part of its content. These engrams are a complete recording, down to the last accurate detail, of every perception present in a moment of partial or full unconsciousness. See also mental image picture.

engram bank: the reactive mind, that portion of the mind which works on a stimulus-response basis (given a certain stimulus it will automatically give a certain response) which is not under a person’s volitional control and which exerts force and power over a person’s awareness, purposes, thoughts, body and actions. It consists of locks, secondaries, engrams and chains of them and is the single source of human aberration and psychosomatic ills. See also aberration.

entheta: enturbulated theta (thought or life): it especially refers to communications which, based on lies and confusions, are slanderous, choppy or destructive in an attempt to overwhelm or suppress a person or group. See also enturbulated; theta.

enturbulated: turbulent or agitated and disturbed.

environment: one’s surroundings; the material things around one; the area one lives in; the living things, objects, spaces and forces with which one lives whether close to or far away.

EP: end phenomena.

erase: to cause an engram to “vanish” entirely by recounting, at which time it is filed as memory and experience and ceases to be part of the reactive mind. See also engram; reactive mind.

ethical code: a code of certain restrictions indulged in to better the manner of conduct of life. A person conducts himself according to such a code because he wants to or because he feels he is proud enough or decent enough or civilized enough to so conduct himself. See also ethics.

ethics: the study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by the individual in his relationship with others. Ethics is a personal thing. It is the actions the person takes on himself. See also morals.

evaluation: the imposing of data or knowledge upon another. An example would be to tell another why he is the way he is instead of permitting or guiding him to discover it for himself.

Expanded Lower Grades: each Grade is a series of processes which are run on a preclear with the purpose of bringing him to a particular state of Release. These are called “expanded” because they use all the processes of the level developed between 1950 and 1970 and are run on all four flows. The Expanded Lower Grades include Expanded ARC Straightwire© through Expanded Lower Grade IV, as given in the Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart. See also Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart; flow; Grades of Release.

exteriorization, exterior: the state of the thetan being outside his body. When this is attained, the person achieves a certainty that he is himself and not his body.

facsimile: a three-dimensional color picture with sound and smell and all other perceptions, plus the conclusions or speculations of the individual. See also memory; mental image picture; picture.

Factors, the: a summation of the considerations and examinations of the human spirit and the material universe completed between 1923 and 1953, by L. Ron Hubbard. The Factors can be found in the book Scientology 0-8: The Book of Basics.

flat: said of a process or question that has been discharged of all bad reactions to the preclear. No longer producing change or a reaction.

flatten: to carry on with (a process or question) until it no longer produces a reaction.

flow: a progress of energy between two points; an impulse or direction of energy particles or thought or masses between terminals; the progress of particles or impulses or waves from Point A to Point B. The four flows used in processing are flow one, something happened to self; flow two, doing something to another; flow three, others doing things to others; flow zero, self doing something to self.

game: a contest of person against person or team against team. A game consists of freedoms, barriers and purposes, and there is a necessity in a game to have an opponent or an enemy. Also there is a necessity to have problems, and enough individuality to cope with a situation. To live life fully, then, one must have in addition to "something to do," a higher purpose, and this purpose, to be a purpose at all, must have counter-purposes or purposes which prevent it from occurring.

games condition: a condition which consists of fixated attention, an inability to escape coupled with an inability to attack, to the exclusion of other games. See also game.

generality: a general or nonspecific statement which is applicable to all. Used in Scientology to mean a statement made in an effort either to hide cause or to overwhelm another person. A generality would be a statement such as “Everybody thinks . . .”

genetic entity: that beingness not dissimilar to the thetan that has carried forward and developed the body from its earliest moments along the evolutionary line on Earth and which, through experience, necessity and natural selection, has employed the counter-efforts of the environment to fashion an organism of the type best fitted for survival, limited only by the abilities of the genetic entity. The goal of the genetic entity is survival on a much grosser plane of materiality (concerning the material or physical). Abbreviation: GE. See also counter-effort; thetan.

genetic line: the protoplasm (essential living matter of cells) line. It consists of the total of incidents which have occurred during the evolution of the body itself. See also genetic entity.

Goals Problem Mass: the problem created by two or more opposing ideas which being opposed, balanced, and unresolved, make a mass. It's a mental energy mass.

Grade(s): a series of processes which are run on a preclear with the purpose of bringing him to a particular state of Release. See also Grades of Release; Release.

Grades of Release:

1. Expanded ARC Straightwire: Recall Release; Freedom from deterioration; has hope; knows he/she won't get any worse.
2. Grade 0: Communications Release; Ability to communicate freely with anyone on any subject.
3. Grade I: Problems Release; Ability to recognize the source of problems and make them vanish.
4. Grade II: Relief Release; Relief from hostilities and the sufferings of life.
5. Grade III: Freedom Release; Freedom from the upsets of the past and ability to face the future.
6. Grade IV: Ability Release; Moving out of fixed conditions and gaining abilities to do new things.
7. Grade V: Power Release; Ability to handle power.
8. Grade VA: Power Plus Release; Recovery of knowledge.
9. Grade VI: Whole Track Release; Return of powers to act on own determinism.
10. Grade VII: a Grade VII is not a Release Grade. It is a Clear, a being who no longer has his own reactive mind. A complete list of the abilities gained for each of these Grades of Release can be found in the book Scientology 0-8: The Book of Basics. See also Clear; Release.

gradient: a gradual approach to something, taken step by step, level by level, each step or level being, of itself, easily surmountable-so that, finally, quite complicated and difficult activities or high states of being can be achieved with relative ease. This principle is applied to both Scientology processing and training.

gradient scale: (also called a graduated scale) a scale of condition graduated from zero to infinity. On a scale of survival, everything above zero or center would be more and more survival, approaching an infinite survival (immortality), and everything below zero or center would be more and more nonsurvival, approaching an infinite nonsurvival (death). Absolutes are considered to be unobtainable.

grief charge: an outburst of tears that may continue for a considerable time, in a session, after which the preclear feels greatly relieved. This is occasioned by the discharge of grief or painful emotion from a secondary. See also secondary.

grind: go over and over and over and over a lock, secondary or engram without obtaining an actual erasure. A Dianetics auditor who puts a pc through an incident four or five times without erasure or appreciable reduction is encountering “grinding.” See also engram; erase; lock; secondary.

group processes: auditing techniques administered to groups of children or adults by a Group Auditor.

handle: finish off, complete, end cycle on.

happiness: the overcoming of not unknown obstacles toward a known goal and, transiently (passing quickly or soon), the contemplation of, or indulgence in, pleasure.

havingness: the concept of being able to reach. By havingness is meant owning, possessing, being capable of commanding, taking charge of objects, energies and spaces. See also conditions of existence.

hidden standard: a problem a person thinks must be resolved before auditing can be seen to have worked. It is a standard by which a person judges Scientology or auditing or auditors.

high-toned beings: individuals who are high on the Tone Scale. They think wholly into the future. They are extroverted toward their environment. They clearly observe the environment with full perception unclouded by undistinguished fears about the environment. They think very little about themselves but operate automatically in their own interests. They enjoy existence. Their calculations are swift and accurate. They are very self-confident. They know they know and do not even bother to assert that they know. They control their environment. See also Tone Scale.

holder: any engram command which makes an individual remain in an engram knowingly or unknowingly. These include such things as “Stay here,” “Sit right there and think about it,” “Come back and sit down,” “I can’t go,” “I mustn’t leave,” etc. See also engram.

identification: the inability to evaluate differences in time, location, form, composition or importance.

implant: an enforced command or series of commands installed in an individual’s reactive mind below his awareness level to cause him to react or behave in a prearranged way without his “knowing it.” See also reactive mind.

incident: an experience, simple or complex, related by the same subject, location, perception or people that takes place in a short and finite time period such as minutes, hours or days; also, mental image pictures of such experiences. See also mental image picture.

indicators: those manifestations in a person or group that indicate whether it is doing well or poorly, signal an approaching change, or show that the auditing process has reached the desired end point.

individuation: a withdrawal out of groups and into only self. The mechanics of individuation are first, communication into, and then, refusal to communicate into.

intelligence: the ability to perceive, pose and resolve problems.

intensive: a specific number of hours of auditing given to a preclear over a short period of time, as a series of successive sessions at regularly scheduled intervals. As an example, modern auditing is sold and delivered in 121/2-hour intensives.

intention: something that one wishes to do or intends to do. Intention is an impulse toward something; an idea that one is going to accomplish something. It’s intentional, which means one means to do it.

introversion: a looking in too closely; having one’s attention and interest directed upon oneself.

invalidation: refuting or degrading or discrediting or denying something someone else considers to be fact.

isness: an apparency of existence brought about by the continuous alteration of an as-isness. This is called, when agreed upon, reality. See also as-isness.

justification: explaining away wrongnesses. Most explanations of conduct, no matter how far-fetched, seem perfectly right to the person making them since he or she is only asserting self-rightness and other-wrongness.

key-in: a moment when the environment around the awake but fatigued or distressed individual is itself similar to the dormant (inactive) engram. At that moment the engram becomes active. See also engram.

key-out: a release or separation from the reactive mind or some portion of it. See also reactive mind.

KRC triangle: the upper triangle in the Scientology symbol. The points are K for knowledge, R for responsibility, and C for control. It is difficult to be responsible for something or control something unless you have knowledge of it. It is folly to try to control something or even know something without responsibility. It is hard to fully know something or be responsible for something over which you have no control, otherwise the result can be overwhelm. Little by little one can make anything go right by increasing Knowledge on all dynamics, increasing Responsibility on all dynamics, increasing Control on all dynamics. See also dynamic(s).

level: a training step on the Grade Chart which one does for classification. He is then eligible to deliver the auditing grade represented by that level. See also Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart.

level of awareness: that of which a being is aware. (This can be established by finding which general condition of existence he is most aware of, as shown and plotted in the Awareness Characteristics column of the Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart.) See also Classification, Gradation and Awareness Chart.

Life Repair: a series of auditing actions run on a preclear who is starting out in auditing for the first time. Life Repair would address such things as rough spots in life, periods which the preclear may feel bad about, areas of overwhelm, etc.

line charge: a period of sudden laughter, often uncontrollable, that a preclear experiences in a session and that results from the relief of painful emotion. See also charge.

lines: communication lines, the routes along which communications travel from one person to another; the lines on which particles flow.

livingness: the activity of going along a certain course, impelled (driven) by a purpose and with some place to arrive.

lock: a mental image picture of a nonpainful but disturbing experience the person has had, which depends for its force on earlier secondaries and engrams which the experience has restimulated (stirred up). See also engram; mental image picture; secondary.

Logics: a method of thinking. They apply to any universe or any thinking process. They are the forms of thought behavior which can, but do not necessarily have to, be used in creating universes. The Logics can be found in the book Scientology 0-8: The Book of Basics.

LRH: L. Ron Hubbard.

lumbosis: a made-up name for a disease, coined by L. Ron Hubbard and used humorously in many of his lectures and writings.

machine: an actual machine in the mind (like ordinary machinery), constructed out of mental mass and energy, that has been made by the individual to do work for him, usually having been set up so as to come into operation automatically under certain predetermined circumstances. See also mental mass.

mass: see mental mass.

mechanics: referring to space, energy, objects and time. When something has those things in it, it constitutes something mechanical.

memory: any facsimiles of consciously perceived data which can be recalled by the individual. See also facsimile.

mental image picture: a copy of the physical universe as it goes by; we call a mental image picture a facsimile when it is a “photograph” of the physical universe sometime in the past. We call a mental image picture a mock-up when it is created by the thetan or for the thetan and does not consist of photographs of the physical universe. We call a mental image picture a hallucination, or more properly an automaticity (something uncontrolled), when it is created by another and seen by self. See also automaticity; facsimile.

mental mass: the mass contained in the mental image pictures (facsimiles) in the reactive mind. See also mental image picture; reactive mind.

mest: also MEST, the physical universe. A word coined from the initial letters of Matter, Energy, Space and Time, which are the component parts (elements) of the physical universe. Also used as an adjective to mean “physical”-as in “mest universe,” meaning the “physical universe.”

mest universe: that agreed-upon reality of matter, energy, space and time which we use as anchor points and through which we communicate. A mutual system of barriers on which we have agreed so we can have a game.

mind: a control system between the thetan and the physical universe. The mind is not a brain. See also analytical mind; thetan.

misdirector: a command in an engram which sends the preclear in the wrong direction, makes him go earlier when he should be going later or go later when he should go earlier, etc. “You can’t go back at this point,” “You’re turned around,” etc. See also engram.

misemotion: a coined word in Dianetics and Scientology, often used loosely to refer to anything that is unpleasant emotion, such as antagonism, anger, fear, grief, apathy or a death feeling. The full meaning of misemotion is an emotion or emotional reaction that is inappropriate to the present time situation. It is taken from mis- (wrong) + emotion. To say that a person was misemotional would indicate that the person did not display the emotion called for by the actual circumstances of the situation. Being misemotional would be synonymous with being irrational. One can fairly judge the rationality of any individual by the correctness of the emotion he displays in a given set of circumstances. To be joyful and happy when circumstances call for joy and happiness would be rational. To display grief without sufficient present time cause would be irrational.

missed withhold: an undisclosed contrasurvival act which has been restimulated by another but not disclosed. This is a withhold which another person nearly found out about, leaving the person with the withhold in a state of wondering whether his hidden deed is known or not. See also restimulation; withhold.

moral code: a series of agreements to which a person has subscribed (agreed, consented) to guarantee the survival of a group.

morals: a code of good conduct laid down out of the experience of the race to serve as a uniform yardstick for the conduct of individuals and groups. Morals are actually laws.

motivator: an aggressive or destructive act received by the person or one of the dynamics. The reason it is called a motivator is because it tends to prompt that one pays it back-it “motivates” a new overt. See also dynamic(s); overt act.

M/U: misunderstood word.

natter: to find fault with; gripe. In Scientology, if a person is nattering about somebody, one knows the person has overts on that somebody. See also overt act.

necessity level: a person’s ability to rise above his aberrations when his action is required to handle an immediate and serious threat to his survival. See also aberration.

no-games condition: a totality of barriers or a totality of freedom. See also game; games condition.

not-isness: the effort to handle isness by reducing its condition through the use of force. It is an apparency and cannot entirely vanquish an isness. See also apparency; isness.

Objective Process: objective refers to outward things, not the thoughts or feelings of the individual. An Objective Process deals with the real and observable. It calls for the preclear to spot or find something exterior to himself in order to carry out the auditing command. It locates the person in his environment, establishes direct communication with the auditor, and brings a person to present time, a very important factor in mental and spiritual sanity and ability. See also present time.

obnosis: observation of the obvious. The only way one sees anything is by observing the obvious: one looks at the isness of something, at what is actually there. Fortunately, the ability to obnose is not in any sense “inborn” or mystical. It is easily regained and improved through Scientology. See also isness.

obsessive communication: an outflow which is not pertinent to the surrounding persons or situation. An outflow of communication which is not in reality with the existing reality. See also reality.

occlusion: any part of a person’s memories that is hidden on the time track and is not available to conscious recall except through processing. See also time track.

Operating Thetan (OT): it is a state of beingness. It is a being “at cause over matter, energy, space, time, form and life.” Operating comes from “able to operate without dependency on things,” and Thetan is the Greek letter Theta (), which the Greeks used to represent thought or perhaps spirit, to which an n is added to make a noun in the modern style used to create words in engineering. It is also n or “theta to the nth degree,” meaning unlimited or vast. Abbreviation: OT.

optimum solution: the solution which brings the greatest benefit to the greatest number of dynamics. The infinitely perfect solution would be one which brought infinite survival on all dynamics. See also dynamic(s).

OT: Operating Thetan.

other-determinism: the condition of having one’s actions or conclusions determined by something or someone other than oneself.

overrun: continue a process or a series of processes past the optimum point. See also end phenomena.

overt act: an act of omission or commission which does the least good for the least number of dynamics or the most harm to the greatest number of dynamics. It is that thing which you do which you aren’t willing to have happen to you. See also dynamic(s).

overt-motivator sequence: when a person commits an overt, he will then believe he’s got to have a motivator or that he has had a motivator. For instance, if he hits somebody he will tell you immediately that he has been hit by the person, even when he has not been. See also motivator; overt act.


pan-determinism: the willingness to start, change and stop two or more forces, whether or not opposed, and this could be interpreted as two or more individuals, two or more groups, two or more planets, two or more life species, two or more universes, two or more spirits, whether or not opposed. This means that one would not necessarily choose sides.

para-Scientology: a category of data in Scientology which includes all greater or lesser uncertainties and questionable things; things in Scientology of which the common, normal observer cannot be sure with a little study.

pastoral counseling: counseling delivered by a pastor (minister) of the church. Also called auditing or processing. See also auditing; processing.

pc: preclear.

perceptics: sense messages.

physical universe: the universe of matter, energy, space and time. It would be the universe of the planets, their rocks, rivers and oceans, the universe of stars and galaxies, the universe of burning suns and time. See also mest; universe.

picture: an exact likeness of something; a copy or representation of a thing, not the thing itself. An image or mental image of something. See also facsimile; mental image picture.

pleasure moment: mental image pictures containing pleasure sensations. See also mental image picture.

postulate: a conclusion, decision or resolution made by the individual himself; to conclude, decide or resolve a problem or to set a pattern for the future or to nullify a pattern of the past.

potential trouble source: someone who is connected with a suppressive person who is invalidating him, his beingness, his processing, his life; someone connected to a person or a group opposed to Scientology. This connection results in illness and roller coaster (gets better, then gets worse). Processing would work with such a person for a moment, then wouldn’t work. One can’t audit this person up faster than the environment knocks him down. Because the case doesn’t get well, he is a potential trouble source to Scientology organizations, to others and to himself. See also suppressive person or group.

preclear: a spiritual being who is now on the road to becoming Clear, hence pre-Clear.

Prelogics: see Qs.

prenatal: a Dianetics term used to denote (refer to) an engram which is received before birth. See also engram.

pre-OT: a thetan beyond the state of Clear who, through the pre-OT levels, is advancing to the full state of Operating Thetan (OT). See also Clear; Operating Thetan; pre-OT levels; thetan.

pre-OT levels: the advanced auditing levels after Clear and preparatory to the actual OT levels which begin at New OT VIII. The pre-OT levels are New OT I through New OT VII. See also Clear; Operating Thetan.

present time: the time which is now and which becomes the past almost as rapidly as it is observed. It is a term loosely applied to the environment existing in now, as in “The preclear came up to present time,” meaning the preclear became aware of the present environment. See also environment.

present time problem: a special problem that exists in the physical universe “now” on which the pc has his attention fixed. It is any set of circumstances that so engages the attention of the preclear that he feels he should be doing something about it instead of being audited.

process: a set of questions asked or commands given by an auditor to help a person find out things about himself or life and to improve his condition.

processing: the application of Dianetics or Scientology processes to someone by a trained auditor. The exact definition of processing is: The action of asking a preclear a question (which he can understand and answer), getting an answer to that question and acknowledging him for that answer. Also called auditing.

propitiation: a level of the Tone Scale at which one attempts to appease or buy off some danger or imagined danger.

psychosomatic: psycho refers to mind and somatic refers to body; the term psychosomatic means the mind making the body ill or illnesses which have been created physically within the body by derangement of the mind.

PTP: present time problem.

PTS: potential trouble source: a person who is in some way connected to and being adversely affected by a suppressive person. Such a person is called a potential trouble source because he can be a lot of trouble to himself and to others. See also suppressive person in this glossary

Purification Rundown: a special rundown (series of specific actions done on a case) designed to purify and clean out of one’s system the restimulative drug or chemical residues which could act to prevent case gain from Dianetics or Scientology processing. Abbreviation: Purif. See also case gain; restimulation.

Q and A:(noun) the practice of asking a question about a pc’s answer, i.e., the auditor asks a question, the pc answers, the auditor asks a question about the answer. This is the chief auditor fault, as it is giving session control over to the pc. The auditor following only the pc’s lead is giving no auditing and the pc is left on “self-audit.”

Here is a wrong example of auditing:
Auditor : “How are you?”
Pc : “Awful.”
Auditor : “What’s wrong?”

Here is a right example:
Auditor : “How are you?”
Pc : “Awful.”
Auditor : “Thank you.”

(verb) act indecisively; fail to make up one’s mind. Technically, to Q-and-A means to ask a question about a pc’s answer. But it is often used nontechnically in “Scientologese” as noted above.

Qs: knowledge is a pyramid, and knowledge as a pyramid has a common denominator which evaluates all other data below it. At the top point of this pyramid is what could be called a Q, and it could also be called a common denominator. It is in common to every other datum in this pyramid full of data. The Qs are the highest echelon from which all other things are derived. Q comes from quod in Q.E.D. (quod erat demonstrandum), meaning “which was to be shown or demonstrated,” used specifically in mathematical proofs. The Qs can be found in the book Scientology 0-8: The Book of Basics.

randomity: a consideration of motion. There is plus randomity and minus randomity. There can be, from the individual’s consideration, too much or too little motion, or enough motion. “Enough motion” is measured by the consideration of the individual.

rationalization: justification; making excuses to explain irrational behavior. See also justification.

reactive: irrational, reacting instead of acting; thinkingness or behavior dictated by the reactive mind rather than the individual’s own present time determinism. See also reactive mind.

reactive mind: that portion of a person’s mind which works on a totally stimulus-response basis, which is not under his volitional control and which exerts force and the power of command over his awareness, purposes, thoughts, body and actions. The reactive mind is where engrams are stored. See also engram; stimulus-response.

reality: the solid objects, the real things of life; the degree of agreement reached by two people. See also ARC triangle.

recall: an auditing procedure which has the preclear think of, remember or put his attention on something that happened in the past-all done from present time. See also present timem.

rehabilitation: the restoration of some former ability or state of being or some more optimum condition.

Release: the term for what occurs when a person separates from his reactive mind or some part of it. The degree and relative permanence of being pulled out of the reactive mind determines the state of Release. There are a number of states or stages of Release and these are called Grades. See also Expanded Lower Grades; Grades.

religious philosophy: a term which implies study of spiritual manifestations; research on the nature of the spirit and study on the relationship of the spirit to the body.

repair: patching up past auditing or recent life errors.

repeater technique: a Dianetics auditing technique given in the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health in which the auditor would have the preclear repeat over and over certain phrases found in engrams being run. See also engram.

repetitive processing: auditing in which a process is run over and over again, with the same question of the pc. The pc answers the question and the auditor acknowledges him. The process is run until it is flat. See also flat.

responsibility: the concept of being able to care for, to reach or to be; the ability and willingness to be cause. To accept responsibility for something is to accept that one operated as cause in the matter. It should be clearly distinguished from such lower-level considerations as blame or praise, which include the further evaluation of the goodness or badness of the thing caused.

restimulation: reactivation of a past memory due to similar circumstances in the present approximating circumstances of the past. See also key-in.

restimulator: anything in the individual’s surroundings which is sufficiently similar to something in his reactive mind that it causes part of his reactive mind to become restimulated. See also reactive mind; restimulation.

reverie: a light state of “concentration” not to be confused with hypnosis; in reverie the person is fully aware of what is taking place.

R-factor: reality factor. It is the action of the auditor telling the pc what the auditor is going to do at each new step. This gives the pc more reality on what is occurring in the auditing session.

ridge: a solid accumulation of old, inactive energy suspended in space and time. It is generated by opposing energy flows which hit one another, and continues to exist long after the energy flows have ceased. See also flow.

routine: a standard process. See also process.

rudiments: those steps or actions used to get the pc in shape to be audited in that session. For auditing to take place at all the pc must be “in- session” which means: (1) willing to talk to the auditor, (2) interested in own case. Rudiments are actions done to accomplish this.

ruds: rudiments.

run: to administer or undergo a process or auditing action.

rundown: a series of steps which are auditing actions and processes designed to handle a specific aspect of a case and which have a known end phenomena. Example: Scientology Drug Rundown. See also end phenomena.

sanity: the ability to recognize differences, similarities and identities. The legal definition of sanity is the “ability to tell right from wrong.” The better one can tell differences, the more rational he is. The less one can tell differences, no matter how minute, and know the width of those differences and the closer one comes to thinking in identities (A=A), the less sane he is. See also A=A=A=A.

Scientologist: one who knows he has found the way to a better life through Scientology and who, through Scientology books, tapes, training and processing, is actively attaining it.

Scientology: Scientology applied religious philosophy. It is the study and handling of the spirit in relationship to itself, universes and other life. Scientology means scio, knowing in the fullest sense of the word and logos, study. In itself the word means literally knowing how to know. Scientology is a “route,” a way, rather than a dissertation or an assertive body of knowledge. Through its drills and studies one may find the truth for himself. The technology is therefore not expounded as something to believe, but something to do.

Scientology Drug Rundown: a rundown (series of auditing actions) which uses Scientology auditing techniques to handle the harmful effects of drugs, medicine and alcohol on a case. This rundown extroverts a person, brings him into present time, and allows him to experience the relief and expansion available to one who has been freed from the influence of drugs. See also case; rundown.

secondary: also called secondary engram. A period of anguish brought about by a major loss or threat of loss to the individual. The secondary engram depends for its strength and force upon physical-pain engrams which underlie it. See also engram.

second dynamic: see dynamic(s).

self-determinism: that state of being wherein the individual can or cannot be controlled by his environment according to his own choice. He is confident about any and all abilities or talents he may possess. He is confident in his interpersonal relationships. He reasons but does not need to react.

service facsimile: a computation generated by the individual to make self right and others wrong, to dominate or escape domination and to enhance own survival and injure that of others. This computation will cause the individual to deliberately hold in restimulation selected parts of his reactive mind to explain his failures in life. For example, a person may keep an old injury in restimulation so that his family has to look after him. See also facsimile; reactive mind; restimulation.

session: a precise period of time during which an auditor audits a preclear.

significance: a word which is used in the special sense to denote any thought, decision, concept, idea, purpose or meaning in the mind in distinction to its masses. (The mind is basically composed of masses and significances.) See also mental mass.

solid communication line: a communication line is the route along which a communication travels from one person to another; the line on which particles flow. A solid communication line is one requiring solid contact, such as the auditor’s hand in the preclear’s hand or the preclear’s hand in his.

somatic: a physical pain or discomfort of any kind. The word somatic means, actually, bodily or physical. Because the word pain is restimulative, and because the word pain has in the past l

Boulder climber
May 12, 2009 - 12:51am PT
somatic mind: that mind which takes care of the automatic mechanisms of the body, the regulation of the minutiae (precise details) which keep the organism running.

sonic: the recall of something heard, so that it is heard again in the mind in full tone and strength.

soul: the living unit which operates the body. See also thetan.

SP: suppressive person. A person who possesses a distinct set of characteristics and mental attitudes that cause him to suppress other people in his vicinity. This is the person whose behavior is calculated to be disastrous. Also called antisocial personality.

space opera: of or relating to time periods on the whole track millions of years ago which concerned activities in this and other galaxies. Space opera has space travel, spaceships, spacemen, intergalactic travel, wars, conflicts, other beings, civilizations and societies, and other planets and galaxies. It is not fiction and concerns actual incidents and things that occurred on the track. See also whole track.

stable datum: one datum, one factor, one particular in a confusion of particles that keeps things from being in a confusion and on which other things can be aligned. Any confusing motion can be understood by conceiving one thing to be motionless. The one thing selected and used becomes the stable datum for the remainder.

Standard Technology: the exact processes and auditing actions laid down by L. Ron Hubbard and used for the invariable resolution of cases, taught in the organizations of Scientology and used without variation by all Scientology auditors. The term applies equally to Dianetics and its technology.

start-change-stop: the cycle of action in this universe, which is also the anatomy of control. Almost the entire subject of control is summed up in the ability to start, change and stop one’s activities, body and one’s environment. See also cycle of action.

static: something which doesn’t have wavelength, so it is not in motion; it doesn’t have weight, it doesn’t have mass, it doesn’t have length, breadth or any of these things. It is motionlessness.

stimulus-response: given a certain stimulus, something will automatically give a certain response.

Straightwire: the name of a process. It is the act of stringing a line between present time and some incident in the past, and stringing that line directly and without any detours. The auditor is stringing a straight wire of memory between the actual genus (origin) of a condition and present time, thus demonstrating that there is a difference of time and space in the condition then and the condition now, and that the preclear, conceding this difference, then rids himself of the condition or at least is able to handle it. The motto of Straightwire could be said to be, “Discover the actual genus of any condition and you will place the condition under the control of the preclear.” See also present time.

subconscious: the unconscious mind. See also unconscious mind.

suppress: to squash, to sit on, to make smaller, to refuse to let reach, to make a person uncertain about reaching, to render or lessen in any way possible by any means possible, to the harm of the individual and for the fancied protection of a suppressor.

suppressive acts: actions or omissions undertaken knowingly to suppress, reduce or impede Scientology or Scientologists. (Such actions are high crimes and result in dismissal from Scientology and its organizations.)

suppressive person or group: a person or group of persons who actively seek to suppress or damage Scientology or a Scientologist by suppressive acts. See also potential trouble source; suppressive acts.

survival: an impulse to persist through time, in space, as matter and energy. It is a condition susceptible to nonsurvival. If one is “surviving,” one is at the same moment admitting that one can cease to survive, otherwise one would never strive to survive.

sweetness and light: a humorous term which means pleasant, good-tempered, etc. Often used to describe the case which cannot conceive of ever having done anything bad to anybody or anything. See also case.

symbiote: a term which in Dianetics is extended beyond the dictionary definition to mean “any or all life or energy forms which are mutually dependent for survival.” The atom depends on the universe, the universe on the atom.

tactile: the perceptics (sense messages) of touch.

tech: 1. technical. 2. technology.

technology: the methods of application of an art or science as opposed to mere knowledge of the science or art itself.

terminal: anything used in a communication system; anything that can receive, relay or send a communication; a man would be a terminal, but a post (position, job or duty to which a person is assigned) would also be a terminal; also, things with mass and meaning.

theta: energy peculiar to life or a thetan which acts upon material in the physical universe and animates it, mobilizes it and changes it; natural creative energy of a thetan which he has free to direct toward survival goals, especially when it manifests itself as high tone, constructive communications. See also thetan.

Theta Clear: a person who operates exterior to the body without need of a body.

thetan: the person himself-not his body or his name, the physical universe, his mind, or anything else; that which is aware of being aware; the identity which is the individual. The term was coined to eliminate any possible confusion with older, invalid concepts. It comes from the Greek letter Theta (), which the Greeks used to represent thought or perhaps spirit, to which an n is added to make a noun in the modern style used to create words in engineering. It is also n, or “theta to the nth degree,” meaning unlimited or vast.

Theta Universe:

1. thought matter (ideas), thought energy, thought space, and thought time, combined in an independent universe analogous to the material universe. One of the purposes of theta is postulated as the conquest, change, and ordering of mest. (From Science of Survival Glossary)
2. is a postulated reality for which there exists much evidence. (From Science of Survival, page 99.)

third party: one who by false reports creates trouble between two people, a person and a group, or a group and another group. See also third party law.

third party law: a law which states that a third party must be present and unknown in every quarrel for a conflict to exist. Or, for a quarrel to occur, an unknown third party must be active in producing it between two potential opponents.

time track: the consecutive record of mental image pictures which accumulates through a person’s life or lives. It is very exactly dated. The time track is the entire sequence of “now” incidents, complete with all perceptics, picked up by a person during his whole existence. See also incident; mental image picture.

tone: the emotional condition of an engram or the general condition of an individual. See also engram; Tone Scale.

Tone Scale: a scale which shows the emotional tones of a person. These, ranged from the highest to the lowest, are, in part, serenity, enthusiasm (as we proceed downward), conservatism, boredom, antagonism, anger, covert hostility, fear, grief, apathy. (There are additional tone levels than these in the Expanded Tone Scale).

Touch Assist: an assist action which reestablishes communication with injured or ill body parts. It brings the person’s attention to the injured or affected body areas. This is done by repetitively touching the ill or injured person’s body and putting him into communication with the injury. His communication with it brings about recovery. The technique is based on the principle that the way to heal anything or remedy anything is to put somebody into communication with it.

track: see time track.

truth: the exact consideration. Truth is the exact time, place, form and event.

two-way communication: a two-way cycle of communication would work as follows: Joe, having originated a communication, and having completed it, may then wait for Bill to originate a communication to Joe, thus completing the remainder of the two-way cycle of communication. Thus we get the normal cycle of a communication between two terminals (people).

unconscious mind: a term from psychoanalysis. It is said to be the sum of all thoughts, memories, impulses, desires, feelings, etc., of which the individual is not conscious but which influence his emotions and behavior. In actuality, the “unconscious” is the sum of all a man’s bad experiences and nothing more mysterious than that. In Dianetics and Scientology it is called the reactive mind. See also reactive mind.

universe: a whole system of created things. The universes are three in number. The first of these is one’s own universe. The second would be the material universe, which is the universe of matter, energy, space and time, which is the common meeting ground of all of us. The third is actually a class of universes-the universe of every other person.

unmock: become nothing; make nothing of.

valences: personalities. The term is used to denote the borrowing of the personalities of others. Valences are substitutes for self taken on after the fact of lost confidence in self. Preclears “in their father’s valence” are acting as though they were their father.

VGIs: abbreviation for Very Good Indicators. It means good indicators to a very marked degree. Extremely good indicators. For example, if a preclear were happy or laughing in session, those could be considered very good indicators. See also indicators.

vias: relay points in a communication line. To talk via a body, to get energy via eating, alike are communication by-routes. Enough vias make a stop. A stop is made out of vias.

viewpoint: a point of awareness from which one can perceive.

visio: the recall of something seen, so that it is seen again in the mind in full color, scale, dimension, brightness and detail.

whole track: the moment to moment record of a person’s existence in this universe in picture and impression form.

withhold: an unspoken, unannounced transgression against a moral code by which the person was bound. Something the preclear did that he or she is not talking about. A withhold is always the manifestation which comes after an overt. Any withhold comes after an overt. See also moral code; overt act.

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
May 12, 2009 - 12:51am PT
I've never quite understood what Scientology claimed to actually do for a student.

hungry man

Trad climber
May 12, 2009 - 12:53am PT
It is stupid.

Hobart, Australia
May 13, 2009 - 06:13pm PT
I had a girlfriend who was into EST (and ropes courses) way back when. It gave her a lot of positive energy, but it always seemed a bit creepy to me. Not sure if it was typical, but it also seemed very secretive--she wouldn't really tell me much what it was about, but I found out more from her EST friends, who assumed I was "in the know".

May 13, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
"I don't think so many people are naturally "suckers"... but the basic human need to be accepted and appreciated is strong enough to override the otherwise better judgment of many folks."

Andrew Clark: You don't have any goals.
John Bender: Oh but I do.
Andrew Clark: Yeah?
John Bender: I wanna be just like you. I figure all I need, is a lobotomy and some tights.
Brian Johnson: You wear tights?
Andrew Clark: No I don't wear tights. I wear the required uniform.
Brian Johnson: Tights.
Andrew Clark: Shut up.


Big Wall climber
May 13, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
Scientology does good for the stars though, instead of killing people in dui's, going through heroin phases and generally being as#@&%es they are doing e meters, staring contests, looking up words in dictionaries and generally being as#@&%es; at least they aren't causing me harm.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 13, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
Thanks, Anastasia. Somewhere I knew L. Ron Hubbard wrote something about the quickest way to becoming a millionaire was to start your own religion, so thanks for the reference.

You can say what you like about Jesus, but he sure didn't "start" anything to become rich. Poor old bugger died without a possession in the world, though they played for his clothes.

Actually, you don't hear many people saying anything negative about Jesus, just Christians. What can you say negative about Jesus? Jesus was very cool. He's the person in history I'd most like to have a beer with. Or wine - and he could buy the first round!

Social climber
Flatland, Ca
May 13, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
uhm...... nutjob... thought you were a thinking man... and would know better..

Does the question even need to be asked?


Plain and simple

Boulder climber
May 13, 2009 - 10:46pm PT
in all fairness of my ribbing of the seizmologists, i did see a lot of very happy people every Saturday night during graduation.
much improvement over when they came in.
so, unless you have been "inside" for a while, you really have no idea of what really goes on, because of all the screwed up pr it gets for some weird reason.

the diseminators put it a little nicer, "if you don't know what the f*#k your talkin about, shut the f*#k up so you don't show the world what an ignorant chicken sucker you are!"

you have to try pot to form an opinion.
you have to get drunk to from a valid opinion.
get it?

the main reason i did not like it was it was too straight.
they told me i could no longer use the chronic.
but then i go to a staff party on saturday nite, and all the higher up's are just getting plastered on booze, orgies in the hallway, three sheets to the wind, but i can't do my thing?
screw it.

it was funny to see them drunk, some of them even turning on scientology, "this chick corea music sucks!"

"have you heard L Rons album? what a joke!"

so it was a bit more open than most folks think.

Boulder climber
May 13, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
this book was banned by the seizmologists, too weird:

"Chapter 3
APATHY (0.05)
Apathy. 1. Lack of emotion or feeling. 2. Lack of interest in things generally found ex-
citing, interesting, or moving; indifference.
– The American Heritage Dictionary
"I'm on a different trip now," my young friend said. "Nothing
bothers me; I
just take life as it comes. I've matured a lot in the last few months. I got all those wild
dreams out of my system and now I'm ready to settle down to some serious study.
That's where it's really at."
If I didn't know the tone scale, my friend's assertions of maturity might have
convinced me. But I recalled his sparkling ebullience only four months earlier as he
left for New York City. Confident of his talent, optimistic about the future, he de-
parted with dreams of success. Somewhere in the intervening months, soundlessly
and without fanfare, the bottom dropped out of his world. Someone or something
took away his hope. The philosophic "realization" was a cop-out. He had given up.
When a person suffers a severe loss and cannot express his grief, he restrains
it and goes into Apathy where he may claim that he isn't affected at all. "I didn't want
that part in the play anyway."
Apathy is turned-off. Turned-off to loving, living, hoping, crying, laughing,
A person may drop to any low tone after a loss, but in Apathy he has not
only lost, he knows he will never be able to win again.
This is the most serious of all tone levels. A dangerous state of mind border-
ing on death, it's often suicidal. Life is a herd of elephants and trampled him beyond
help or hope.
If every person in this emotion were curled up in a ball on the floor of a men-
tal institution and labeled "catatonic," you could identify him easily. But you are just
as likely to find him lecturing in a large university and labeled a "brilliant intellectual."
Apathy breaks down into two levels. Deepest Apathy (sometimes called pre-
tended death) is only a gnat's breath above death. He may be in bed, unable to care
for himself, completely withdrawn and suffering hallucinations. People are usually in
this state after an operation or severe accident. He's easy to recognize.
It's the higher level, walking-around-Apathy person we find more deceiving.
He may be barefoot, bearded and freaked out on LSD. He could be wearing the
portly businessman's costume and getting smashed on martinis every afternoon. He
may commit suicide with a gun or wander listlessly across the street against the
light, hoping someone else will do it for him.
"I met a talkative Apathy person at a dinner party recently. His tone was re-
flected in nearly every remark. We were talking about cars. He disposed of the sub-
ject with: "The automotive business is dead. It's all over."
When the conversation turned to problems in the construction business, he
said, "The small contractor is dead. He hasn't a chance."
Later we discussed a political problem: "Try to get something like that cor-
rected and you're dead."
The clue to his tone was not only his absolute pessimism, but his frequent use
of the word dead.
Although the Apathy person may be going to classes, doing housework,
making movies, or holding a job, he is usually trying to destroy himself in some
The drug addict and the alcoholic are Apathy persons. Don't be misled by any
surface belligerence, maudlin sweetness, or exuberance manifested when he's high.
How is he when he's down? That's the feeling which drives him back to the chemical
escape. He's committing suicide slowly. He's waiting to succumb, but he's going to
stay stoned so it won't hurt so much. Meanwhile the people around him will be frus-
trated, concerned and desperately trying to do something for him. That's a good tip-
off to Apathy; his associates are frazzled beyond endurance from trying (and failing)
to help him.
Now and then we find a person in Apathy who thinks he's in a state of seren-
ity. Unable to acknowledge his own feeling of helplessness, he justifies it with schol-
arly discourse. I call this "Intellectual Apathy."
Bill, a college student, told me about his friend who studied many philoso-
phies and religions until he evolved one of his own. The friend lengthily described
his achievement of "ultimate awareness."
Deeply impressed, Bill said, "Now that you've reached this state yourself, I'm
surprised you're not trying to help others to get there too."
"Why should l?" the friend replied. "They're all me anyway."
Everything is beyond right and wrong. He walks around in Apathy and
thinks he's a god.
There are certain philosophies (such as Eastern religions) based on the highest
attitudes of the scale; but low-tone people can invert the meaning so that the end
result is Apathy. When any individual or body of thought advocates less activity, lesscommunication, less contact with people or less involvement with living, you can
disregard the erudite labels. It leads toward Apathy.
Other studies and doctrines seem to invite an apathetic outlook. The fatalist
clings to the belief that all events are preordained and human beings are powerless
to change anything ("I'm not even responsible for myself" says Apathy). Their fol-
lowers look to the stars, numbers, colors and crystal balls to indicate their destinies.
People in Apathy are perfect dupes for such hokum.
When someone considers himself to be totally governed by influences outside
himself, he sits in Apathy. He will accept grievous losses and say with a sigh, "It's
God's will; nothing can be done." "If it was meant to be, it will be." (This is not truly a
religious viewpoint, incidentally, for any religion worthy of the name, offers man a
way out – a salvation.) The Apathy person considers himself less than the stars, the
planets, the baseball scores and the flea on his leg. High on the tone scale a person
feels dangerous to his environment (not full effect of it); he changes the environment
to suit him; he's cause. But the more a person believes himself to be the effect, the
closer he is to Apathy and death.
Low-tone people have peculiar concepts of ownership. At Apathy, however, a
person is close to feeling that he owns nothing. This may be literally true or he may
own many possessions and still run around saying, "There's just no point in owning
He also thinks others should own nothing. He lets all property decay and rot.
He wastes your time, runs up your utility bills, leaves lights on and motors running,
and casually uses your telephone to call New Zealand. He's quite bewildered if this
bothers you: "You should get rid of all this anyway." A newly rich screen star says: "I
should save money for my old age, but I don't. All the money I've made just slips
away as if it didn't belong to me. I don't feel like doing anything to save myself. I
just let everything happen ."
There are people who brag about not being affected by anything; they're the
emotionally unemployed. This is most extreme in Apathy. Jim, a college student, felt
that life was losing its sparkle; nothing turned him on anymore. He told his friend,
George, he planned to try an LSD trip. Both boys knew that the drug could produce
long-term mental disorders and, up to that point, they had opted to bypass the
whole drug venture. George, however, was also in Apathy at the time, so he said
only, "Well, I don't agree with what you want to do, but I know there is nothing I
can say that will stop you." In a higher tone, George would not have felt powerless;
he would at least try to do something about the situation . The sophisticated Apathy person will claim he's bored: "I'm fed up with life. Nothing is amusing. What can you
do to create excitement in this superficial world?"
One year after the first moon landing by American astronauts, a large U.S.
newspaper chain sent reporters to conduct seventeen hundred interviews in com-
munities across the nation, asking for opinions of the event. The newsmen reported
that an extraordinary number of people doubted the reality of the Apollo feat. This
was true particularly among the old and the poor. An elderly Philadelphia woman
thought the moon landing was "staged" on the Arizona desert. An unemployed con-
struction worker in Miami said, "I saw that on television, but I don't believe none of
it. Man's never been on the moon." In a Washington, D. C. ghetto more than half of
the people interviewed expressed doubts about the authenticity of the moon walk.
One man, trying to explain away his emotional attitude, said, "It's all a deliberate ef-
fort to mask problems at home. The people are unhappy, and this takes their minds
off their problems." Things are never real to the Apathy person.
The compulsive gambler is at Apathy. If a person consistently wins he's
higher-tone because he's cause over the game rather than effect. The compulsive
gambler, however, cannot quit any game a winner. When a man gambles away the
rent and grocery money every payday, he's manifesting the Apathy attitude about
ownership: "I'd better not own."
A steamship on a cruise to South America received a report that another ship
nearby was wrecked and on fire. The captain changed course and was the first to
arrive at the flaming ship. Eight hundred passengers and crew members were in the
water, floundering, wet and frightened. They'd lost everything but the clothes they
wore. All of them were saved, however, and passengers crowded on deck where
they watched and participated in the exciting rescue, some of them providing cloth-
ing, and warm quarters for the victims.
Throughout all this activity the gambling casino remained open. A certain
number of hard-core players stayed there, eyes hypnotically fixed on the tables, ap-
parently unaware and unaffected by the real-life drama occurring a few yards out-
side the door. That's Apathy. No other tone would be indifferent to such a moving
The youngster who understands the tone scale knows whether to accept ad-
vice and ideas from his elders. One day my seventeen-year-old son described a lec-
ture given by one of his high school teachers, who declared, "Man never changes. He
keeps making the same mistakes over and over. He never learns. He will never im-
"Where's that on the tone scale?" I asked. My son laughed and said, "Apathy, of course." This is another person using
her years of education and experience to support an emotional attitude over which
she has no control.
You can find history and documentation to support every attitude on the
scale. If we fully accepted her "proof," however, no teacher would bother to teach,
no scientist would continue to juggle his test tubes, and I would have stayed in bed
myself today.
No matter how brilliant he is, no Apathy person can be more than an imita-
tion of the vitality we find in the higher tones.
Let's crawl up a notch . . .

Boulder climber
May 14, 2009 - 12:03am PT
this would be the top of the scale:

Our new high school math teacher was speaking carefully, "This is supposed
to be a true story," he said. "A man, sitting in church with his wife, fell asleep and
dreamed he was living in the time of the French Revolution. He was captured and
brought before the guillotine. Death seemed imminent. At just this moment his wife
noticed his closed eyes and drooping head, so she picked up his straw hat and
tapped the back of his neck. Dreaming that this was the blade of the guillotine com-
ing down on him, he died right there in his sleep.
"Now, how do you know this is not really a true story?"
The teacher laughed as he watched us catch on, one by one, to his trick story.
If the man died in his sleep who would know what he was dreaming?
Our introduction to this handsome young man was certainly unusual. The
girls were delighted to be in his class, of course, but we were somewhat apprehen-
sive about that formidable looking geometry textbook.
To our surprise, however, he ignored the text for over a week. Instead, he
spent each class period telling us baffling stories for which we were to find loopholes
or solutions. This was school? Soon we were eagerly anticipating his class and won-
dering what kind of posers we would get each day. After a week of grappling with
strange puzzles – taking them apart, finding flaws, arriving at solutions – we were
convinced that problem solving could be fun. By the time he finally opened the ge-
ometry textbook, we were interested.
That's how a topscale person handles others – by bringing them up to a level
where they become interested. He uses reasoning rather than the emotional persua-
sions used by lower tones ("Do your work or you flunk").
At the top of the scale we find a band ranging from Interest (amusement) to
Enthusiasm (cheerfulness). I've placed them in one chapter because they're similar in
characteristics. The 4.0 is just a little more so. Anyway, when we meet either one of
them, it's such a welcome experience we don't want to waste our time nit-picking
about which tone he's in.
One can become interested in various subjects, of course, at any level of the
tone scale. He may be interested in anything from learning Swahili to looking at
dirty pictures; but this doesn't place him at 3.5 on the scale.
The high-tone person takes an active interest in subjects related to survival.
There's more action, more involvement and more creativity.
He can envision far-reaching plans and ideas that project toward a better fu-
ture for himself and all mankind. His interests may be more novel and of broader
scope than those of the lower-tone person.
He's more of a participant than a spectator. If he takes up sports, he'll excel
because of his fast reaction time.
The 3.5 is capable of maintaining a strong, sustained interest; he doesn't take
up something and drop it a week later (as we see in lower tones).
I once knew a young man who became interested in bird-watching. He was
so enthused with the subject that he learned to recognize every bird call as soon as
he heard it, and within a few months became an expert. Later this same young man
studied karate until he earned the coveted black belt. Before he was twenty years old
he acquired two skills that would give him pleasure and confidence for the rest of his
life. I've known many people twice his age who have dabbled in a dozen subjects
without achieving such proficiency in any of them.
One reason the 3 5 can put more attention onto any subject he's learning is
because he is less introverted. His attention is outside of himself; he wants to be in-
terested rather than interesting.
This is the tone of the fellow who just won the Irish Sweepstakes (before the
income tax men arrive). He's eager, enthusiastic, cheerful, alive!
Before you get the picture of 4.0 as a perpetually grinning ape whom most of
us would find obnoxious (at least before the first cup of coffee in the mornings, I'd
better explain that he is not constantly bubbling over (that's more likely the phony
bonhomie of the 1.1 or the strange, hysterical glee that may occur on any low tone –
even Apathy). Generally he wakes up with a quiet sense of well-being and looks
forward to carrying out his plans for the future.
He's mobile on the scale – able to experience all emotions as the occasion calls
for them – although he's generally at the top with the volume turned down to a
good-natured cheerfulness.
He's an active person who inspires others to action. If he's not the boss yet, he
probably will be.
He enjoys working and is willing to be responsible for a large sphere of activ-
ity. You won't find him in squalid quarters; he recognizes and enjoys the good
things in living. Here's a fully sane human being.
He's free from having to take sides. He finds no need to fight; but he defi-
nitely will rather than tolerate injustices. Since he doesn't need approval from others,
he is able to do things courageously on a basis of personal conviction.
He can spend time with low-tone people without getting depressed, compul-
sively sympathetic or cruel.
There was a San Francisco men's club which collected money and food each
year for a needy family in the community. One year, after such a family was se-
lected, Fred, an up-tone member of the club, said, "You know, I don't mind helping
this fellow, but I'd much rather see him earn his own money."
Fred followed up on his idea and learned that the impoverished man was laid
off, but sincerely wanted to work. With the cooperation of the other members, Fred
helped the man set up a lawn care business. The man soon came upscale and started
adding customers. Within two years he owned two trucks, employed several helpers
and ran a busy, thriving business – one that benefited the whole community. That's
upscale help.
Having no need to control or dominate people to satisfy his own ego, the 4.0
uses his enthusiasm and confidence to inspire others to reach higher levels and do
things for themselves. His tremendous personal power is a calming influence to a
worried or troubled area.
Because of his fast reaction time, he avoids accidents. He's excellent at sports
or any project he undertakes. He generally enjoys good health, because he doesn't
recklessly ignore the rules of good body care.
A high-tone person makes himself understood easily. He's capable of com-
municating deeply-felt ideas, but he does so with discrimination. He prefers dealing
with constructive facts, rather than destructive ones. While a lower-tone doom
salesman is reciting all the shocking news, he will be pointing to the survival activi-
ties occurring. He'll mention a book that will help you make more money. He'll de-
scribe a new development for making sturdier cars. He prefers discussing solutions,
rather than clucking about the horribleness of it all.
He listens to others and understands them easily (provided the communica-
tion is understandable and does not exceed his educational level) and he can hear
low-tone people without becoming upset, critical or derogatory .
My son told me about an upscale teacher who periodically gave the students a
free discussion period in which they could make suggestions or comments about the
class. One day a girl peevishly complained, "I don't think you let us talk enough."
Not finding it necessary to argue or defend himself, he replied calmly: "Hmm.
I think you're right. I often talk too much"
If a high-tone fellow delegates someone to give him a full report on a situa-
tion, he'll expect truthful facts and, if possible, a suggestion for rectifying any nega-
tive conditions. He will not accept a report based on generalities, innuendoes and
assumptions that merely concludes: ''The world is going to hell in a handbasket." The
3.5 will call such a person on the carpet. He resents and strikes back at unnecessary
"bad news" reports.
At 4.0 the person simply cuts a vicious or slanderous communication line. He
doesn't absorb it or relay it. If possible, he'll raise the tone of the originator. Other-
wise, he'll probably just cease accepting communication from that person.
When the 3.0 gets mad at a newspaper for biased reportings he'll write a blis-
tering letter to the editor. The 4.0 will most likely cancel his subscription and look for
a more upscale paper.
His magnetic personality attracts people without effort, and he'll be loved by
almost everyone. Some low-tone types, however, will get upset around 4.0 because
they can't knock him down to their level. People who can move easily on the tone
scale will find him inspiring. His high tone is contagious; they want to be around him
so they can catch it themselves.
Be friends with him, hire him, elect him, promote him, work for him. You
can't go wrong.
If you are playing cards with him and accidentally expose your hand, he
won't look. He's honest. He doesn't subscribe to the get-away-with-what-you-can
philosophy. He actually refines ethics beyond those demanded by his group. He
doesn't need laws, rules or policies to force him to be honest.
You can trust him with your money, your reputation or your wife.
A person who can assume no responsibility feels horrible.
''Full responsibility is a very light-hearted thing.''
– L. Ron Hubbard, Philadelphia Doctorate Course
If Enthusiasm isn't chairman of the board, he should be. He enjoys his work
and takes large responsibilities easily. He's willing to take command or take orders
(although he'll rebel against executing non-survival orders).
He works with persistence toward constructive goals. if someone tells him it
can't be done or "We don't have any," a person in this tone band will bypass the ob-
structing individual and find another way to accomplish his purpose. I observed a
topscale man recently calling a New York supplier to order materials for one of his
machines. The supplier's order department was manned by a Grief/Apathy person
who said, "Well, I don't know if you're ever going to get these supplies. We're out of
them and they've been on order for ages. That machine is obsolete now, you know."
"Are you telling me the company just stopped making supplies for the ma-
chines that are out in the field?"
"Well, it's coming to that. We aren't getting our shipments like we used to."
"What am I supposed to do?"
"I don't know. You'll just have to get a new machine, I guess."
"Would I be able to trade this one in?" "Well, you won't get much money for
it. After all, it's obsolete. "
"This is ridiculous; my machine is still working fine." "That's all I can tell you.
There's nothing more I can do."
He hung up in disgust; but he didn't stay upset long. Unwilling to accept this
stop, he phoned another supplier who promptly filled the order. A lower-tone per-
son would have succumbed to the bad news without question. The upscale guy just
doesn't give up so easily.
He tends toward higher goals than people lower on the scale. If you hire him,
you'd better plan on promoting him; he won't settle for mediocrity. While he's not
grasping or greedy, he's more capable of owning than people lower on the scale. He
enjoys possessions, can easily make a fortune and usually embraces plentiful goals of
survival. Lower on the scale, we find people who think they would like to have more
money or more possessions and sometimes they acquire them. More often, how-
ever, they cannot permit themselves to own much. This is no problem to the high-
tone person. He will realize that survival on a bare necessity level is unsafe, and it
will be intolerable to him. If it appears that he needs five hundred dollars a month in
order to provide the minimum needs for himself and his family, he'll get busy and
earn two thousand dollars a month.
He can tolerate larger effects on himself than lowertone people. This means
that he may lose a fortune; but he's able to bounce back and earn another one. Al-
though he's frequently attacked by downscale people, he fights such attacks (if nec-
essary) and recovers easily.
If you can find such a spouse, take him (or her) and don't look back. You
must be doing something right.
Here at the highest level of the scale, we find constancy and a natural instinct
for monogamy. The 4.0 has a high enjoyment of sex; but a moral reaction to it. Al-
though he loves with a spontaneous and free exuberance, we won't find the dissi-
pated love at 4.0, because at this level a person is more likely to sublimate the sexual
drive into creative thought and energy.
The 4.0 is extremely interested in children. He not only cares for their mental
and physical well-being, he is concerned about the society in which they will live. He
is interested in efforts that improve the culture, so that youngsters will have a better
chance for survival in the future.
Ron Hubbard has plotted a second, expanded tone scale which goes below 0.0
and above 4.0. it relates to the spiritual entity, however, and to understand it one
must know and embrace the religious philosophy of Scientology. One actually ap-
pears on both scales. But this book deals with the human being, who will always befound somewhere between 0.0 and 4.0. A chart of the expanded scale is available to
those who are interested (see list in the back).
He's alive and he likes it. Neither falsely modest nor egotistically inflated, he
knows what he can do and has an honest evaluation of his own worth. He enjoys
being himself.
He's mobile on the tone scale. He can suffer a loss and bounce back quickly.
When he is deliberately stopped or suppressed, he fights with fervor, although he
holds no long-term grudges.
This fellow is no rubber stamp, but he'll follow orders without an argument
provided they do not compromise his own integrity. He's both independent and
cooperative. He can stay on good terms with others without surrendering his own
If he resolves to save money, lose weight or stop playing the horses, he'll do
He's a lighthearted man with a free mind, capable of changing viewpoints and
looking at new concepts. He can act spontaneously and intuitively. He's liable to
follow his hunches – and be right.
Can you remember the last day of school? You walk out of the dreary build-
ing. Gone are the deadlines, those tardy themes, the verb conjugations, the heavy
homework and the dull lectures. There's a tremendous relief. You're so light you
could float through the air with the dandelion seeds. Nothing is serious; the future
looks gloriously bright. You feel magnanimous and the world is yours to explore, to
love, to play in and to laugh with.
That's the top of the scale.
You just can't buy that sort of thing at the corner drugstore.

Boulder climber
May 14, 2009 - 12:39am PT
This is by far, the funnest emotion to act out on.
This is everything good in life, right here.
This is where the fun is at:

"Chapter 9
Covert: l) Covered or covered over; sheltered. 2) concealed; hidden; secret. Hostile: 1)
Of or pertaining to an enemy. 2) feeling or showing enmity; antagonistic.
– American Heritage Dictionary
The main difficulty with a 1.1 is that he doesn't wear a neon sign telling you
he's a 1.1.
It's a cover-up tone – the most difficult one on the scale to recognize. After
you do spot one, don't expect the next 1.1 you meet to bear much resemblance.
He may be that hearty buffoon, "the life of the party." She's the inconspicuous
little old maid down the street who never forgets your birthday. He could be the
jovial, back-slapping salesman. The smooth con man. The witty, entertaining gossip
columnist. The swaggering office Don Juan who might be the smiling lady next door
who knows all the delicious little stories about the neighbors. He's the lover who is
gay and tenderly passionate one minute and disdainfully sarcastic the next. He's the
clever impostor who passed himself off as a surgeon for fifteen years. He's the gen-
tle-mannered homosexual. Or that pleasant young man who "never said an unkind
word to anyone" but was just convicted of seven hideous sex crimes. Or that news-
paper reporter who appeared so friendly until his story (full of slimy innuendoes)
was in print. And here's where we find that nice bank president who embezzled
100,000 and skipped off to Brazil with the belly dancer. He could be the sensitive
poet, the suave millionaire or the charming vagrant who lives by his wits and hasn't
done a day's work in twenty years.
Wherever he turns up, he'll be in disguise. If you're generous in character,
you may be tempted to treat him leniently.
At 1.1 we find the emotion Ron Hubbard has described as "the most danger-
ous and wicked level on the tone scale." (Science of Survival)
He's halfway between Fear (which motivates his tone) and Anger (which he
must conceal). His emotion dictates that he smile and put up a good front at all times
since he "knows" we mustn't ever become angry. At this position we find flagrant
lying in order to avoid real communication. Such lying may be in the form of pre-
tended agreement ("what a marvelous idea"), flattery ("that's a darling dress, my
dear") or appeasement ("now don't worry; I'll take care of everything").
The 1.1 constructs a false facade, an artificial personality. He's the cheerful
hypocrite. AS A FRIEND
You won't need enemies. You'd be better off as a recluse. Don't trust him
with your money, your reputation or your wife. He's a person who hates but is un-
able to say he hates. He deals in treachery and expects to be forgiven. He'll tell you
he stood up for you when he actually did his best to destroy your reputation. He'll
flatter you quite insincerely while he waits for his moment to do you in. And he'll
find more ways of doing you in than I can possibly catalog in one chapter.
The 1.1 expects special privileges or exemptions, He'll be the one most likely
to assume that he can break the rules – of a marriage, a company, a group or soci-
We often like the 1.1 at first because he pretends to be so high-tone. But even-
tually (unless we're in Sympathy) we grow to despise him. Our loathing, however, is
sometimes hard to explain because we can seldom pin down exactly what this doll is
doing that's so despicable.
While he's arrogant, he's such an accomplished actor that we may be deceived
by his put-on of humility Having command of all the tones below his, he uses them
without conscience to convince us he's harmless and means well. In this way, he ma-
nipulates people, always seeking hidden control. He may weep, plead, propitiate or
sympathize; he may pose contempt or disdain. But through all the histrionics he is
trying to nullify others to get them to the level where they can be used.
If you get mad at him, he usually drops to Propitiation (goes out of his way to
do things for you or brings you gifts) or Grief ("I didn't mean any harm...") in order
to worm his way back into your confidence. Count on him to know your soft spots
and to play on them with consummate skill.
Here's a fast way to peg a 1.1: he seeks to introvert you. This generally occurs
in the first few seconds of meeting him. He'll say, "You've gained some weight,
haven't you?" or "I can't figure out why you look so different..." On the phone, he
may open the conversation with: ''Your voice sounds funny; do you have a cold?"
Under the guise of friendly concern, these remarks are meant to push your attention
into yourself (and away from him). Soon you'll be explaining yourself or worrying:
"What's the matter with me?"
On meeting, the 1.1 nearly always tries to speak first in order to grasp control
of the conversation. If he gets his own darts in first, there is less chance for some-
thing to be thrown at him. I once introduced two 1.1 men to each other. As I did so, I
wondered who would win the inevitable rush to get in the first word. Well, they both
started talking at once, and they kept talking for at least a full minute, neither hear-
ing a single word said by the other. They were well-matched.
Covert Hostility fills his conversation with small barbs, thinly veiled as com-
pliments ("this cake is delicious, almost as good as anything you could buy in a
store"). It's a 1.1 who uttered the classic put-down: ''That's such a lovely dress you're
wearing. I've admired it for years."
He feels a continual nervous necessity to reject almost any remark. If you're
trying to make a sincere statement or present an upscale idea, he'll query it, "I see
what you mean, but..." He'll helpfully correct your pronunciation and word choices
(he's the semantic fanatic), start picking lint off your shoulder, or interject a joke at
your expense (usually with puns; he loves them). He uses any conceivable method
of cutting your communication to ribbons. Of course (ha ha) he didn't mean any
harm. Just being friendly.
He lies when there's no reason to lie. Facts are confused, twisted or hidden,
while he noisily advertises his honesty, ethics and virtue. He may be giving you his
"sacred word" while he wields his automatic knife-in-the-back trickery.
If you challenge his lies, he'll probably tell you he was being "subtle."
The high-tone person might play the role of spy and do it well (although he
does not enjoy subterfuge). The 1.1, however, is a natural spy. If you want to make
this fellow come to life, present him with an inviting situation that requires guile,
cunning, deviousness or perversion. Give him a justification for window peeping,
eavesdropping, snooping or secret investigating and he's fully aware.
When there's a straight course for doing something, the 1.1 won't use it; it
doesn't occur to him. He'll think of a devious method for doing the same thing. I
once worked in an office where the 1.1 office manager forbade dumping ashtrays in
the wastebaskets. I assumed this rule was motivated by fastidiousness (or a con-
science about fire prevention) until I learned that every night he searched through all
the wastebaskets before they were emptied (even piecing together torn bits of pa-
per), so he could find out what was "really going on" in the office. He relished dis-
covering some juicy secret in this manner. Of course, the word got around, so the
staff started amusing themselves by planting all sorts of wild, fictitious scraps of
"evidence" in with the discards.
Although 1.1 conceals his own motives and activities, he is strongly compelled
to reveal secrets of others. This is the tone of the traitor and the subversive. Having
no regard for privacy, he thrives on the chance to expose people (this is even more
prevalent in the next tone: No Sympathy). The Covert Hostility who is having a "se-
cret" love affair will do his best to see that evidence is left around so that people find
out, especially where this creates trouble for his partner.
He's a genius at extracting information from others. Several years ago I
worked for a company on some secret research. Only three of us knew the nature of
the project and none of us was an indiscriminate talker. Therefore, I was surprised
one day, lunching with the switchboard operator, when she casually said, "Well, I
understand you found..." She was so nearly right that it was hard to believe she was
only guessing. I denied any knowledge of the subject, so she said, "Oh, come on,
don't kid me. Everyone knows what you're working on." I realized later that she must have listened in on phone conversations for part of her information; the rest
was conjecture.
Even the speculations of a 1.1 are done with a blatant pretense that he knows
all; this way he frequently lures his unsuspecting victim into telling too much.
The 1.1 not only enjoys probing a mystery, he likes to create one. He can
even use a knowing, enigmatic smile as a put-down. I once saw a 1.1 looking over
the manuscript prepared by a friend of mine, while my friend eagerly awaited
comments. When he finished, the 1.1 merely smiled slyly and said, "I'm reserving
judgment on it. I'll be thinking it over."
This was an insidious blow to the author's pride, but he recovered when I in-
dicated the tone level of his would-be critic. A clever and vicious way to entrap a
creative person – pin his attention in a mystery.
Implying hidden knowledge is a common device of the gossip. A person of
higher tone may pass on news of mutual friends, but he tries to stay with facts. The
1.1, however, embellishes the facts with additives which sound true. "You know Joe
and Phyllis are splitting up?" That may be a fact. But Mabel (the 1.1) will add: "Just
between you and me, it wouldn't surprise me to hear that she was running around
with Bill on the sly." Her knowing manner suggests that she's certain of more facts
than she's telling.
The chronic gossip who enjoys shredding a reputation with half-truths, sup-
positions and speculations is a 1.1. You may meet her draped over the backyard
fence; you'll find him leaning on the office water cooler. It's often the tone of the re-
porter, interviewer and talk show m.c. – the one who uses his charm to gain the con-
fidence of the interviewee before he slices him up. It requires stoic discipline to resist
the sly questioning techniques of the 1.1. Many years ago I moved into a flat and
purchased the furniture of the former tenants. A short time later, the upstairs neigh-
bor dropped in. "I see you bought their furniture," she said.
I nodded and changed the subject. A few minutes later she brought the con-
versation back to the furniture: "I understand they were asking fifteen hundred dol-
lars for it . . . " The statement hung in the air like a question, creating a perfect op-
portunity for me to correct or confirm her statement. Having met her kind before,
however, I decided to out 1.1 her, so I simply murmured, "Really?" and changed the
The 1.1 will jeopardize a business. He cunningly infects an entire office, turn-
ing people against each other and all of them against the company. He's so covert
that he's nearly invisible as the source of bad news and general frustration in the en-
vironment. Although he can do a job, and usually manages to appear hardworking,
it's often a bluff. Unable to tolerate being the effect of anyone, he evades by covert means. Ask him to do a job and he says, "Sure, I'll be glad to do it," but it never gets
done. He pretends to take orders; but there's no intention to follow through.
Covert Hostility is not responsible but he pretends to be. I went to a charm-
ing modern wedding out on the West Coast where there were no ushers. A 1.1 rela-
tive of the groom took it upon herself to stand at the door telling incoming guests:
"Since apparently there aren't to be any ushers, I guess you'll just have to find your
own seat." Speaking with acid emphasis, she appeared to be assuming responsibil-
ity; but her intent was destructive. Clearly, she wanted to make certain the guests
knew this wedding was "improperly planned." If a high-tone person noticed that ar-
riving guests were confused (and I don't think they were in this case), he might say,
"Just take a seat wherever you like" No vicious implications.
The 1.1 is so preoccupied with making an impression on people, his need for
recognition puts him on stage all of the time. Never relaxing, he's an actor, con-
stantly studying his audience to see if everyone is impressed. It's difficult for a 1.1 to
be an audience for long.
In the classroom, he's often the first person to pose a question after the lec-
ture (he'll interrupt if permitted): "Professor, don't you think . . ." He's not interested
in getting an answer; he merely wants to establish his brilliance. The question is
posed for its effect.
Many 1.1s want attention so much they're immune to embarrassment. I once
knew one who dressed in the most outlandish clothes imaginable. He drifted around
looking like a psychedelic bad trip and frequently bragged: "Everybody noticed me."
This same person relished any opportunity to make remarks designed to shock eve-
ryone in the room. There are other 1.1s, incidentally, who dress and speak most con-
When he can't get into the limelight himself, he fastens onto creative, success-
ful people and works unceasingly to knock them downscale. We find 1.1s clustered
around the perimeter of show business. He is often the non performing critic who
seeks hidden control over some area of aesthetics so he can tell the talented person
viciously destructive things "for your own good."
When he fails to get close to the winners, he brags that he is anyway. He
knows the big movie stars. The President asks his advice. He pretends he's having
love affairs with the most beautiful women.
Because of a strong compulsion to play the big shot, the 1.1 often connives his
way to the higher echelons of business, politics, clubs or social groups. He's a short-
cutter, however, with such idle persistence that he's rarely proficient in any line. In-stead, he learns only enough to fake his way to an influential spot. He wants the ap-
plause without ever learning to dance.
He's the dilettante who dabbles in music and gives it up. He studies painting
for a month and loses interest. Too flighty to concentrate on a subject long enough
to become accomplished, he prefers to make a cursory study after which he uses
guile and chicanery to pass himself off as an expert.
All criminals fall below 2.0 on the scale (as long as they are still criminals) and
a great many of them are 1.1s. Even when a Covert Hostility person is not actively
breaking the law, he is unethical and dishonest.
He has a tendency toward suicidal actions; but he is actively seeking the death
of his entire environment ("I guess I'll succumb but maybe I'll take you with me").
Here we have murder by slow erosion of individuals and culture, each harmful ac-
tion slyly masked with lengthy reasoning. Here we find the people who most pro-
mote (and most enjoy pornography.) Here is the silky pimp who talks the young
girl into becoming a prostitute. Here is the cagey pusher who convinces teenagers
that they should "get with it," and that drugs are harmless anyway.
He prefers to relay only the most malicious communication. Good news is
quickly forgotten or deliberately suppressed. If you send a special bargain notice to a
customer and there's a 1.1 opening the mail, he'll see that the notice never gets to the
buyer in time. Covert Hostility people frequently position themselves where they
can control incoming communications. This not only gratifies their snooping in-
stincts, it permits hidden control.
One morning I observed a 1.1 handling a small business establishment for the
absent owner. It was a busy day with customers, orders and inquiries constantly
flowing in. An irate workman called; a foreman was not on the job and couldn't be
located. A few minutes later the owner phoned in. "Oh boy," our dream girl reported
with relish, "things are really a mess around here today. . ."
She dwelled lengthily on the one "trouble" call, completely neglecting to men-
tion all the good news and normal business.
He enjoys no real sense of humor, but at this tone you'll most often hear the
compulsive laughter that burbles out when there is nothing at all amusing. We may
be discussing the weather or the ball scores and the 1.1 will titter or chuckle mean-
inglessly. He laughs at a joke – probably longer than everyone else – but it's not
really funny to him. Nothing is.
I've known many 1.1s who were not practical jokers; but I've never known a
practical joker who wasn't a 1.1. They delight in making elaborate, secret prepara-tions designed to fool, embarrass, expose, belittle or humiliate the victim. All in fun,
of course.
The manager of a local insurance company told me of a time, early in his ca-
reer, when he was transferred to an office in another state. Apparently some ethnic
conviction caused people in that particular area to shun life insurance policies, al-
though they would happily buy annuities. Unaware of this, our man spent two frus-
trating weeks trying to sell life insurance; but he failed completely. Bewildered and
depressed, he described his experiences to the men in the office. Finally, they dis-
closed the secret of selling in that city. Permitting him to lose for awhile was part of
the "initiation" for a new man. Although my friend failed to appreciate the joke, the
1.1 boys in the office considered it hilarious.
He acts amazed when you don't laugh at his sly capers. If you get annoyed,
he expects you to forgive his peccadilloes.
You could write a whole book on the sexual characteristics of the 1.1 (and
many people have). Some of them are strait-laced to the point of prudishness and
blatantly insist on morals for others. But also at this level we most frequently find
promiscuity, perversion, sadism and every irregular practice. Strangely, the 1.1
doesn't actually enjoy the sex act itself, but is hectically anxious about it. He'll be the
strong advocate of "free love."
The excessively promiscuous person is nearly always a 1.1. His lack of persis-
tence shows up in the inability to enjoy a long-term, meaningful relationship with
one individual. He constantly seeks sexual pleasure through the new and different.
Such people are dangerous to a society because their kinky behavior is conta-
gious. Free love and promiscuity are danger signals which should be heeded if a race
is to go forward. Such activities indicate a covert reversal of the sanctity of love and
marriage. There are now so many publications devoted exclusively to advocating,
encouraging and glamorizing promiscuity, that the upscale person may fee! out-
numbered. He begins to question his natural instinct for fidelity and constancy and
wonders if he's old-fashioned.
Today's frank confrontation of problems related to abortion, birth control
and enlightened sexual adjustment is much saner than the Victorian priggishness
that clouded such issues for many years. However, harbingers of the "liberated age"
(usually the 1.1s of the press and periodicals) would have us believe that this means
anything goes. With glib irresponsibility, they report on man's most debased activities
and ignore the possibility that their own choice of "news" will be a corroding influ-
The 1.1 can be the sweetest-talking lover on the tone scale, but as a long-term
partner, he's most harmful. Very likely he'll cheat and/or insidiously undermine his
spouse's confidence with all manner of subterfuge. He won't be satisfied until his
partner is reduced to Apathy and all dreams are gone.
HOMOSEXUALS Recently a friend wrote me about observing a group of homosexuals who
lived near him: "I think they're called 'gay' for good reason," he said, "I've never
heard so much laughter as I have living with these cats around. There's an almost
constant level of superficial gaiety and happiness."
This is the forced "happiness" of the 1.1.
Homosexuals may be fearful, sympathetic, propitiative, griefy or apathetic.
Occasionally they manage an ineffectual tantrum. But home base is 1.1.
Homosexuals don't practice love; 1.1s can't. Their relationships consist of: 1)
brief, sordid and impersonal meetings or 2) longer arrangements punctuated by
dramatic tirades, discords, jealousies and frequent infidelity. It could hardly be oth-
erwise since the tone is made up of suspicion and hate, producing a darling sweet-
ness interspersed with petty peevishness. Their "love" turns to deep contempt even-
Although the 1.1 detests children, he's sometimes capable of playing the role
of parent convincingly. There is always the subtle, damaging inclination, however,
no matter how benignly masked. We see little concern for the future of the child. We
see careless family actions (such as adultery) which tend to split up the family and
destroy the security on which the child's future depends.
Sometimes the 1.1 takes good physical care of a child, but is guilty of emo-
tional and moral neglect. This tone always tries to stop the child from being angry,
thus suppressing him below 1.5 on the scale. He's excessively concerned with the
child's appearance and manners – his front. Ultimately, he tries to push the child to
apathetic compliance. At best, the Covert Hostility parent begets a Covert Hostility
Since it's unpopular to dislike children, the 1.1 may hide his cruelty behind
playful jokes. He will tease, criticize and gently harass a child to the point of tears.
One time a saleswoman calling at the door jokingly said to my youngest son, "I'm
going to take you home with me." He looked at her as if she'd lost her marbles and
wandered off to play. She related that earlier the same day she told a little girl she
was going to take her baby brother home; the little girl burst into tears. It is typical
of the 1.1, that having just produced a totally alarming effect on one child, she was
now attempting to use the same technique on mine. Under the guise of joking
friendliness, she wanted to hurt the youngsters.
In a safe, upscale environment, the 1.1 may come up to 1.5. But generally
speaking, he is incapable of Anger. Somewhere in the past, losing his temper became
so dangerous that he is now afraid to do so. The animosity is there, however, con-
stantly squeezing out beneath the veneer of good fellowship. If he could blow his
top and get it out of his system, he might move up the scale and become a nice per-
son. But as long as he is unable to express himself in direct confrontation, he works
secretly to injure and destroy. If you're uncertain whether a person is 1.1, notice how you feel with him. Do
you get thrown off balance? Feel self-conscious? Worry about whether you're witty
enough, cool enough, sophisticated enough?
This is a common social tone. People of higher or lower levels will adopt a
somewhat false politeness for superficial contacts. Such "good manners," however,
do not carry the destructive intention of the chronic 1.1.
The tones below this are more destructive (especially for the poor chaps who
are in them); but they are weak. Unless your relationship is very personal, they will
have little influence on you. The 1.1, however, can seldom be ignored. He impinges.
He makes his presence known. The more able you are, the more likely he will in-
sinuate himself into your space, your time and your life – as jovial as the deadly vi-
rus that invades your bloodstream and lays you up in bed for six weeks.
Several ways of handling a 1.1 will be discussed in later chapters, but probably
the best advice is this: get him out of your environment. Don't bother being subtle
about it. He's insensitive to hints, incapable of embarrassment. He'll keep coming
back with the persistence of a fly on a sticky summer day unless you bluntly tell
him – perhaps several times – that you don't want his company. Once you do this,
naturally, he'll talk about you behind your back. But, don't kid yourself, he's been
talking about you all along anyway.
Remember that beneath that pixie twinkle thumps a heart of solid granite." (uh oh...)


Trad climber
the cliffs of insanity
May 14, 2009 - 01:31am PT
I live for the day that I meet Cruise so I can tell him that I'm sorry about Goose.

Boulder climber
May 14, 2009 - 03:01am PT
OK, you are in Sympathy, or a 0.9d
Read up on yourself:

"Chapter 7
Sympathy: A relationship or affinity between persons or things in which whatever
affects one correspondingly affects the other. The act of or capacity for sharing or under-
standing the feelings of another person. A feeling or expression of pity or of sorrow for the
distress of another.
– The American Heritage Dictionary
Maxwell was a cheerful, optimistic man who plodded off to a regular job each
day and spent every night writing short stories. These he sent off to the popular
magazines. Although he did sell two stories, he acquired a huge collection of rejec-
tion slips. He persisted, however. One day, he promised himself, I'll quit that dull job
and write all the time.
Meanwhile, he married a lovely girl who was kind and understanding. He
knew she would "stand by him" through everything. And she certainly did. Every
time he received a rejection slip, she said, "Poor darling. They don't appreciate your
One day he came home to find four of his favorite stories returned. Slumping
dejectedly in the chair he moaned, "I guess I just don't have what it takes."
His tender wife sat on the arm of his chair to comfort him. "Now, dear,
you've just been working too hard. You need a rest. Why don't you take a vaca-
So he did take a vacation – from writing. Maxwell now spends his evenings
glumly watching television and drinking beer. His sweet wife understands why he
gave up his ambitions and consoles him: "You tried so hard, and you are a good
writer. I'm sure the only people who get published nowadays are the ones who
know the editors personally."
That's Sympathy. She's a darling. And she's deadly.
The only trouble looming in this chapter is with the definition of the word
Sympathy. So let's clear that up first.
We say "we're in complete sympathy with each other" when we're talking
about the closest possible harmony with someone. We say "he's sympathetic to our
cause" when referring to a person who's smart enough to agree with our own ideas.
And is there any one of us with a character so stoic that we don't welcome a sympa-
thetic person around to soothe us when someone has stolen our little red wagon,
our lover or our knee warmers (depending on which stage of this game we're play-
Sympathy, as we generally use the word, can mean a high toned empathy
and accord, the charitableness and understanding of the big-hearted, a shaft of warm
sunlight slicing through the murk. However, we're talking something else here. The .9 is a counterfeit. He doesn't choose to be kind; he's chronically sympa-
thetic. He can't do anything but commiserate.
The prominent manifestation of this emotion is obsessive agreement. We're in
the Fear band here and it is Fear that dominates the .9. So at this position of the scale,
Sympathy is not valor, but cowardice, stemming from a basic fear of people. He's
excessively afraid of hurting others. He's compulsively "understanding" and "reason-
able" about all the lowest-tone unfortunates of the world. He's the person who's
"reasonable" about the axe murderer. He'll be understanding about the toadying
Sympathy means "feeling together," so if one were sympathetic with a high-
tone person, everything would be glorious; he'd feel high-tone. But the person at .9
seldom achieves more than a superficial tolerance of upscale people and conditions.
He is most comfortable when he can sympathize with Apathy and Grief. Of course,
his "feeling together" causes this chameleon to wobble drunkenly through the low
tones always somewhere between complacent tenderness and tears.
He looks harmless. And that's just how he wants to look. He's desperately
trying to ward off blame. "See how understanding I am?" "See how I wouldn't hurt
anybody?" His addiction to praise and fear of blame make him compulsively under-
It was a quiet, pleasant party. We were exchanging ideas about the future of
religion when Casper – a new arrival – interrupted contemptuously: "Surely you've
read Schemerhorn's theory on penalties and predicaments?"
No one had, but he rambled on interspersing his complicated monologue
with obscure references. When he ran out of breath, we picked up our conversation
again. Someone said, "I think most people need to believe in something, whether or
not they call it religion. So if . . . "
Sneeringly, Casper cut in: "That's just infantile thinking! In my opinion, there's
only one intelligent viewpoint. Vosgarten's treatise on the majestic obsession covers
the whole concept. . . " After enduring two hours of Casper's rude arrogance and
unintelligible speeches, an aggressive member of the party challenged him: "Why
can't you just say what you want to say, man? We don't understand you. Do you
believe that?"
"Well, it doesn't fit into my model of reference. It's like Wumvoogen says.. . "
"Don't get started again. I'm trying to tell you that we can't understand you.
You don't make sense. You've monopolized the conversation and you haven't said
anything. Furthermore, you don't listen to anything the rest of us say. What's the
matter with you that you can't communicate?"
To our amazement, Casper's defenses collapsed and his eyes filled with tears.
Although everyone felt some compassion for him (and eased the conversa-
tion back to neutral grounds), only one compulsive Sympathy person emerged. A pretty young woman named Judy, silent until now, leaned toward him, "Casper,"
she said, "I see beautiful qualities in you."
"I can't believe you mean that."
"Of course, I mean it."
"Oh, people say those things, but they don't follow through. It takes more
than words to convince me."
"I want you to believe me. I mean it sincerely."
I could see the beginnings of a complicated and regrettable relationship here.
Judy saw nothing "beautiful" about Casper in his moments of boorish arrogance. It
required his defenseless state of Grief to bring her to life. The ultimate cohesion be-
tween this pair would be about as inspired as a glutinous mass of day-old spaghetti .
Someone once said that behind every successful man there's a woman. What
no one said (until Ron Hubbard uncovered this emotion) is that behind every up-
scale man who goes downhill and fails, there's probably a sympathetic woman. No
high-tone man ever broke down from mere hard work or even a few setbacks. He
can be crushed, however, by the slow, eroding benevolence of a Sympathy person
who "helps" by supplying infinite justifications for his failures.
Sympathy is so devastating because he is telling the low-tone person: "The
helplessness you feel about yourself is so justified that I feel it too."
No one needs that kind of assistance; it strengthens the person's problems in-
stead of his ability to solve problems. It takes responsibility away from the individ-
ual. "Poor you. The world isn't treating you right."
The high-tone person (especially if he understands the tone scale) would say,
"Well, this is most unfortunate; but let's take a look and see what went wrong. You
can go out and try it again." But Sympathy loves company, so he doesn't help some-
one recover from a loss and go back to win. He can't; there wouldn't be anyone to
spend his Sympathy on.
The high-tone person sees a drowning man and throws him a life line. The
Sympathy person jumps in and drowns with the victim.
We may find ourselves liking Sympathy better than the more aggressive
people between 1.1 and 2.0 on the scale. He's not throwing barbs at us. He's not de-
manding that we change. He's not excessively critical. If we need to lay the head
down for a good cry, he's right in there with a velvet-cushioned shoulder. It feels so
comfortable to have someone who accepts us uncritically in our most unlovely mo-
ments (it's probably quite similar to the sensation of drowning).
But, he's ineffectual. He does nothing to improve conditions. The upscale per-
son says "You're hurt; we'll patch it up." But .9 moves in on the same wavelength saying, "Oh, you're so tired. We'll have to take care of you." There's a deadly time-
lessness about that. He doesn't say "cure." He says "take care of."
Sympathy (as well as Propitiation) is most comfortable around sick people.
And if they're not sick already, he'll help them along. If the person on the receiving
end of all this kindness becomes convinced that he needs to be cared for, he remains
at the bottom of the scale.
The .9 is too afraid of hurting others to do anything effective. He just agrees
about how terrible it all is. A high-tone person is not afraid of hurting others for a
just cause; he's able to take any necessary actions to benefit the greatest number. But
Sympathy, instead of curing the alcoholic, sits down and gets drunk with him.
Don't work yourself into a lather trying to figure out whether a person is at
Sympathy or Propitiation. Although each tone is slightly different in character, they
intertwine like two tangled coat hangers. Sympathy often leads, automatically, to
Propitiation. Mother says, "It's too cold out for you to walk (Sympathy). I'll drive
you to school (Propitiation)." The student says, "It's too bad you fell asleep during
the lectures. Here, you can copy my notes."
The crime of Sympathy is the crime of omission – the crime of not handling,
not controlling, not disciplining, not providing strength. His pity and leniency
merely reinforce low tones.
He's quite destructive when coupled with a highertone individual because the
emotion results from a hidden goal to knock the higher person down to the point
where Sympathy will be needed. He waits until the upscale person suffers a setback,
at which time he comes alive. He slows down or stops the other individual by pity-
ing him.
Sympathy finds many ways of castrating the higher tone person. The boss
gets mad when he hears that the tippling salesman is offending customers, so he
plans a showdown. Along comes Sympathy who soothingly purrs: "Now, now,
boss. Of course it's upsetting, but let me handle it. I have a little more patience than
you have."
Patience may be a virtue at the top of the scale, but at .9 it's only another
euphemism for weakness.
Everyone – even the topscale person – sinks down into the drearies some-
times. Sympathy, however, is more prone than any other emotion to revolve in a
perpetual circle between happiness and melancholia. His brand of happiness, of
course, is nothing you're going to want to bottle up and sell on the street corners.
It's mostly a consoling self-righteousness: "Oh, how merciful and compassionate I
am. I never turn my back on anyone who needs me."
He's a magnet for the dregs of society. He puts his attention on the criminals,
the invalids, the skid row bums, addicts, alcoholics, and all the woeful, poor, stricken, limp, sobbing Grief and Apathy cats he can find. He's easily taken in by their lies.
Grief says he has no money, no job and nobody loves him. So Sympathy says, "Oh,
you poor thing. Life has treated you terribly. Of course I'll help you." So he goes
down to Propitiation, providing shelter, food, money, sex – perhaps his whole life.
Soon he's down there in Grief himself (he's always duplicating tones, remember)
and we hear him sobbing "I've done everything I could, but nothing seems to help."
When Sympathy isn't slobbering over the needy types at the bottom, he's
recklessly defending the destructive ones in the 1.0 to 2.0 band. He insists that "No-
body is all bad. Give them the benefit of the doubt."
He's the most gullible victim of the 1.1 con. Also, because of the ease with
which he is influenced, the Sympathy person can be readily corrupted; the glib 1.1
can lure him into all sorts of criminality, perversion or promiscuity (all of which are
more common to the 1.1 tone). Eventually these activities get Sympathy into trou-
ble, so we hear him grieving again.
Too weak to actually handle the low tones he attracts and too compulsively
"understanding" to permit himself to retreat, he stays locked in a permanent elevator
ride with Sympathy as the top floor and Apathy in the basement.
You can spot him by his fluctuation. Even if you point out that he's associating
with low-tone people who are dragging him down, he's unable to handle and un-
willing to disconnect. He might hurt somebody.
That's how such a nice person gets betrayed so often. He's noble though. He
soon crawls back up to Sympathy and tries again.
If you run a business and you want to stay solvent, don't put a Sympathy
person in charge of a department. His overwhelming fear of hurting others is a dan-
gerous attitude. He'll be ineffective on the job, he'll throw away your profits and
he'll attract the losers because he feels sorry for them. He's the one who insists on
hiring the griefy girl because she's had all the bad breaks. He'll defend the employee
who goofs off because "he has a sick wife and fourteen children, you know."
It's the Sympathy person who most often marries the bad fellow. Here you
find the beautiful young girl who weds the down-and-outer, because she just can't
bear to hurt his feelings.
The .9 is one of the worst possible parents. His over-permissiveness breeds an
uncontrolled, destructive child.
It's easy for loving parents to get lured into feeling Sympathy. How many of
us could remain untouched if we saw a small child sobbing because his ice cream
cone just fell in the sand? Attitudes of Sympathy and Propitiation are automatic:
"There, there, don't cry. I'll buy you another one." This is not truly kindness because
it neglects the future of the child; the gesture teaches him that no matter how careless
and negligent he is, if he cries loud enough someone will pity and take care of him. It would be equally cruel to shrug unsympathetically and say, "That's tough; you
should learn to be more careful." What is the high-tone response? Give the child a
chance to recover from the loss with dignity, not as a beggar: "How would you like
to do a job for me? You can earn the money for another ice cream if you want it."
When we see a youngster who is chronically hideous – crying, whining,
screaming or throwing tantrums – it's a safe bet his parents are stuck in the Sympa-
thy/Propitiation tones. They obviously surrendered, repeatedly, to this behavior;
that's why the child continues using it. He's rewarded for his weaknesses, so he
never develops strength.
Sympathy parents wonder "Where did we go wrong?" while the child grows
into a perpetually immature adult who continues whining through life looking for a
permanent baby sitter to hold his hand and agree that it's a cruel world.
When I was a child, I knew a young boy who was constantly getting beaten
up by a neighborhood bully. One day he ran home crying and his mother decided
not to be sympathetic: "You go back over there and lick that kid or I'm going to give
you a beating myself."
More frightened of his mother's mood than the neighbor, the boy went back
and beat up on the bully for the first time. With new confidence he soon established
neighborhood supremacy as a fighter. As I recall, it was necessary to take on nearly
every belligerent kid in the school first, but he eventually emerged as a peace-loving
individual who knew he could defend himself.
A mother stuck in Sympathy will be so "understanding" that she creates a
permanent loser. I'm not suggesting that we cultivate bullies; but we should recog-
nize that fighting is higher-tone than surrender. And the person who cannot fight
cannot move upscale.
Probably the best answer is to teach the child the tone scale so he can select
higher-tone friends.
He's the nice guy who marries the helpless clinging vine because "she needs
Not everyone who goes to read to the blind children is in permanent Sympa-
thy. High-tone people care too. In fact, they'll probably be the first ones to teach the
children to read Braille.
The highscale person will be compassionate; but he'll boost you back up.
When you find someone who seems hard to place on the chart, who's never vicious,
who's prone to noble deeds and good intentions, but who collects physical and emo-
tional cripples faster than a dog picks up parasites in a flea farm, suspect a Sympathy
I started my study of this tone with the assumption that I would find very few
people here – probably only those types who get their kicks out of going to funerals
or placing wreaths on gravestones. I couldn't have been more wrong. I finished with the shocking realization that it was one of the more populated
levels of the tone scale. Those who aren't there already are frequently forced into
Sympathy socially by the many popular pity-the underdog movements.
In the harsh light of research I recognized a disconcerting number of my fa-
vorite people at .9 – people I tried (sympathetically) to place at a higher tone.
The act of Sympathy convinces a person he has lost, and once he thoroughly
believes that he can lose, he is unable to win. After a person finds the comfortable
warmth of Sympathy, he begins to desire it. He may become so addicted that he
runs around hoping for an accident or illness so he can get more.
This is a thick, gooey, insidiously destructive emotion. Everything's so seri-
In fact, it's a downright shame.
Dingus Milktoast

May 14, 2009 - 07:07am PT
Scientology, just like Mormon, present old thyme religions a very serious challenge - credibility.

It is stunning that some of the same folks in this thread who label one, the other or both, as cults would be offended when it is pointed out Christianity started out the exacte same way and was a cult in every definition of the word, for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Witnessing the birth of a religion is some ugly f*#king sh#t.


May 29, 2009 - 08:14pm PT
Wikipedia bans the Church of Scientology.


Boulder climber
May 29, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
OK, that is because they are afraid, which is
Fear - 1.0

"Chapter 8
FEAR (1.0)
Fear: A feeling of alarm or disquiet caused by the expectation of danger, pain, disas-
ter, or the like; terror, dread, apprehension.
– American Heritage Dictionary
"Now, Fred, slow down. Watch this car up here, Fred. Better get into the left
lane, Fred. We have to turn eight blocks from here. That dog might run out. Be care-
ful, Fred!"
Driver panics (at scream, not at any outside threat) and hits brakes; he nearly
gets rammed by the car behind. Everyone is a nervous wreck.
This tone wears many disguises. It slips down to influence the Sympathy per-
son (who is afraid of hurting others) and Propitiation (where we see the strange
manifestation of a person attempting to buy off imagined danger by propitiating),
and it sneaks upward on the tone scale to lurk behind Covert Hostility and No Sym-
pathy tones.
Most people harbor a few select, temporary fears. We see the tough, swag-
gering student who turns to a quivering butterfly in the seat of an airplane. We see a
housewife who has the courage to be a Cub Scout den mother, but who quails at the
sight of a harmless snake. We see the bull strength of the business tycoon melt into a
pool of limp terror when forced to give a speech. Although irrational, these fears are
not necessarily chronic, so they don't indicate that the person is a 1.0.
There is a time to be afraid, just as there is a time for joy or grief. It's sensible
to have a respect for danger when caught in a burning house or a New York taxicab.
That's survival.
Acute Fear (whether rational or irrational) causes a pounding heart, a cold
sweat or trembling. This may be fear of actual death, injury or merely some harm-
less menace. Stark terror is the highest volume of Fear. In low volume, we see Fear
expressed as excessive shyness, extreme modesty, or unwarranted suspicions. We
find the person who gets tongue-tied easily, who withdraws from people, who
jumps at a door slam.
The person in chronic Fear tone lives with one or another of these manifesta-
tions all the time. He's continually frightened; everything is dangerous. He's afraid
to exist. He's afraid to own things (he might lose them). His solution to life is to be careful – about everything. So, whether he's in terror, mild anxiety, dread or insecu-
rity, he's at Fear on the tone scale. He talks about fearful things, real or imaginary.
In Grief we find anxiety taking a limp form ("Oh, dear, how am I going to
handle this? I just don't know what I can do.") but at the higher tone of Fear the per-
son tries to handle all of the anxieties. Of course, he's pretty ineffectual, but he does
work hard at it.
This person is scattered – like a Kleenex that's been through the washing ma-
chine. He's trying to be somewhere else – anywhere else. He flits around, physically
or mentally. His attention jumps from one thing to another. His conversation takes
grasshopper leaps from subject to subject.
Sometimes (not always) you can see this dispersal in his eyes when he talks to
you – they flit over here, over there, up, down – everywhere but straight ahead. He
can't look at you.
Fear is careful because he knows that nearly everything is threatening. I once
knew a man who insisted that all of the doors and windows of his house be locked,
day and night. He called his wife half a dozen times daily just to see if everything
was all right. If she went on an unscheduled visit to a neighbor, he phoned every
house in the block until he located her. His speech was peppered with phrases such
as "You can't be too careful," "You never know what might happen," and "It doesn't
pay to take chances."
Where a higher-tone person will plan his attack on the enemy force, Fear is
always planning his defense (if he's on the high side) or his retreat (if he's on the low
side of Fear).
When there's a robbery on the other side of town, Fear puts extra locks on his
doors. If he lives in Minnesota, but learns of a deadly new mosquito breeding in the
tropics, he get anxious about it. His attention flits all over the universe trying to
cover every possible danger.
In case you think there aren't many people at Fear, let me remind you of the
now famous Orson Wells radio broadcast "The War of the Worlds" in 1938-a realistic
but fictional report of a Martian "invasion." An estimated one million listeners missed
the three announcements about the fictional nature of the program and panicked.
Telephone lines were hopelessly jammed and people were running in the streets. A
Fear person is gullible and credulous about fearful things. He selectively hears only
communications on his own level.
A smooth-talking insurance salesman chalks up a bonus day when he meets
up with a Fear person – the poor devil will buy one of everything.
He's afraid of losing things, so he walks around constantly fearing that he'll
get bad news – news of a loss. He's afraid he'll hear that his house burned down;
he's apprehensive about getting fired; he wonders if somebody is going to die; he
worries about his wife leaving him.
I once lived across the street from a Fear couple. His face compressed with
deep worry lines, completely bald at the age of twenty-nine ( I don't know if that's
relevant; but I'll mention it anyway), he and his wife worried constantly about
germs, diseases, bad health, burglaries, accidents and disasters. Name anything
dreadful – they dreaded it. Before letting their children out to play, they bundled
them up like Eskimos for fear of catching colds. Interestingly, their two youngsters
suffered more colds and illnesses than any children on the block.
One quiet Sunday morning I saw this neighbor cautiously emerge from his
house. After carefully testing the door to make certain it was locked, he walked to
the garage and unlocked it. After unlocking his car, he drove out to the gate, which
he also unlocked. He backed the car out, returned to the garage and locked it,
walked down the drive, put the chain padlock back on the gate and drove off.
Impressed, I thought: he must be leaving for a month. (We weren't living in
the heart of the crime belt, you understand. The most serious wrongdoing in this
bland suburban community during the previous six months was when a three-year-
old youngster down the street toddled off with another three-year-old's tricycle).
Ten minutes later, however, the neighbor returned with the Sunday papers. He un-
locked the gate, the garage, and went through the whole lockup routine in reverse.
This chap could put the security system at Fort Knox to shame.
While we were living in the same neighborhood, a salesman called one eve-
ning trying to sell a fire alarm system. We turned him down, but as he left I thought:
If he would only stop across the street, they'll surely buy one.
Well, he did, and they did.
At 1.0 love shows up as suspicion of proffered affection. Filbert offers Belinda
his class ring. Instead of happily accepting it, she queries, "What does this mean?"
He tells her he loves her and she wonders what that really means: "I don't
want to say I love you; it might turn out that I don't."
There won't be much free-wheeling love from a Fear partner. He's too careful
to be spontaneous.
Fear parents strongly influence their children. I once knew a woman who ac-
tually hid in the bedroom closet whenever there was a thunder storm. Her fearful
mother taught her to do this. I knew another woman who was afraid of cats, "My
mother always said they were dangerous. You know, they're supposed to carry all
sorts of diseases-at least that's what Mother told me."
A contagious emotion, Fear. Unless he takes the trouble to examine all the
boogies himself, the child grows up convinced that nearly everything is dangerous.
The Fear person performs poorly on a job. He constantly worries about protecting
himself. He's afraid to make decisions, worries about taking on new projects and
invents amazingly insurmountable obstacles to any new plan. "This is a dangerous
time to get into that market. We could lose our shirts." "I'm afraid we'll get sued for
patent infringement if we try this." "It's a nice idea if it weren't so risky."
Convinced that huge effort and energy are necessary to overcome his imaginary
barriers, he'd rather put off than confront them. So he invents reasons why he can't
do a job.
He tries to avoid responsibility at all cost (he thinks he'd be hurt): "Oh no,
you're not going to get me to take on that job. Everybody would be passing the
buck to me. I'd have to take the blame for everything that goes wrong."
While he's better than all the tones below this, you have a poor job risk here.
Fear represents a crossover point on decision making. At the lower part of
Fear, the person is afraid to do things. Retreating, on the run, he's a master at
avoiding. At the high point of Fear the person is afraid not to. He defends against
every possible eventuality. In the middle of Fear tone, we find the absolute maybe.
Here is the person frozen into indecision; he can't make up his mind.
This is not the apathetic indecision of Grief ("I just don't know what to do"). At
Fear the person actively vacillates between "Should I ?" and "Shouldn't I ?"
When a higher-tone person hits this level of the scale, he finds it uncomfort-
able. Here we see the young girl faced with the choice between two eligible men.
She likes them both; she can't decide; she wavers back and forth. Finally, the indeci-
sion becomes so painful that she impulsively makes a choice (she may even run
away with a third man who is totally unsuitable). Anything to move off that maybe.
Some Fear people, however, live in indecision for years – waiting for some
occurrence to tip the scale. Such an individual is afraid to be right and he doesn't dare
be wrong. He's afraid to and he's afraid not to. He can't commit himself. He can't
plan the future, and he can't face the present. If you ask him to set up an appoint-
ment a few days in advance, he can't: "Call me later. We'll see what happens." (The
more high-tone a person is, the more willingly he will commit himself to something
in the future.)
Here we find the couple who date each other for seventeen years because
they're afraid to get married. He's the man who wants to change jobs, but can't
muster the nerve; he grows old waiting for the right impetus. Here's the miserable
marriage that continues on because neither person works up the courage to resolve
it or end it.
Hope is a marvelous quality when it is quickly transferred into specific plans,
actions and accomplishments. Every great doer starts with a dream. At Fear, how-
ever, we find the vacuum of blind hope – the deadly initiative killer. He doesn't pro-
gress; he doesn't give up. He simply postpones living today. It's too frightful, so he
waits for something to happen. What is that something? I don't know. I've seen
people who waited for years, but "it" never arrived. They spend their lives living out
of mental suitcases; they never unpack and settle down to something and they never
take off and go anywhere. They wait. They day-dream. They think wistfully. The
next moment, the next hour, the next day, surety, will bring that magic something
that dissolves all doubts.
That's blind hope. Waiting. Indecision. That's the dead center of Fear.
Fear is the last of the soft emotions. Now we're going to leave the mushy
marshes and pick our way through a stretch of barbed wire.. .

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 29, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
Like everything- same with Christianity and on and on and....

Boulder climber
May 29, 2009 - 10:12pm PT
you sound like you are stuck at

Boredom - 2.5

You go to the beach for a two-week vacation. Sometimes it takes most of the
journey to quit worrying about whether you turned off all the stove burners and
whether the dog will feel heartbroken at the kennel. It may be another day or so
before you stop waking up with the panicky feeling that you're late for work. Fi-
nally you relax and drift along with the mildly pleasant experience of no pressures or
demands. You sleep late, swim, fish, loaf. When everything becomes so calm that the
big event of the day is a stroll to the general store to see what's going on – you've
arrived at Boredom.
It's a pleasant state where one is unconcerned about the larger issues of the
world. Most of us, however, soon reach a saturation point on this level and start
looking forward to getting involved again.
Not so with the chronic Boredom person. His biggest purpose in life is to kill
time; he's an expert at it.
About the only mistake you can make with this tone is putting people here
who don't belong.
Sometimes a person gives the appearance of going up to Boredom when ac-
tually he is still in his usual tone with the volume turned down. Nothing is happen-
ing which permits him to dramatize his chronic tone.
An Apathy person may tell you almost anything was boring, because it takes
such an impact to create any effect on him. Grief will complain that a funny movie
was boring, simply because she found no occasion to cry. When the 1.1 is not getting
enough attention to ignite his spark plugs he affects a sophisticated, hypercritical
boredom: "Why are we hanging around here? Let's go where there's some action."
Such people are bored (by most definitions) because nothing is occurring that
turns on the adrenaline; but they are not at 2.5 on the tone scale. The Boredom per-
son is not complaining, not impatient. He can endure it.
Let's look in on a high school classroom. ..
"Dear Marcy, I've never been so bored. If this guy doesn't shut up pretty
soon, I'm going to have a screaming fit! He's talking about grasshopper legs, for
gosh sakes! Like, wouldn't you think you'd 'earn something sexy in Biology?"
Three seats behind our letter writer, a lanky six footer slumps in light slum-
ber. Across the row, a scowling youth swings his foot impatiently.
All of them will say they are bored; but none of them are really at Boredom
on the scale. The real 2.5 is sitting in the back of the room. He doodles in his note-
book. He watches a fly explore the top of the desk. He wonders if the instructor is
wearing a wig and decides it doesn't matter. He examines dust particles drifting through a shaft of sunlight. He thinks briefly about grasshoppers and limp
solves to read that chapter someday.
Let's turn up the volume on the true tone of the students by introduc
emergency. A huge rock smashes through the window and thuds on the tea
desk. Papers fly. A vase of flowers crashes to the floor. The teacher jumps b
chilling wind whips through the room. A girl screams. Another bursts into
Several students laugh. One of them rushes up to see if the instructor is hurt
affects concern while mentally planning how he'll embellish the story later. E
them turns on strong in his chronic tone. In the back of the room, Boredom p
watches everything. He realizes this might be serious; but he doesn't panic. Lo
out the window, he wonders who threw the rock; but he decides it really d
matter. It's been an interesting afternoon.
He's "well adjusted." The emotion is pleasurable. His attention is leisure
slightly scattered. He wants to be entertained. He likes a certain amount of pl
random activity. He can occupy himself for hours, days, years with the most
matters. He'll wash the car, trim the shrubs, play a game of cribbage, watch t
game on TV.
Although some large ideas may flicker through his mind from time to
he won't be the guy who invents a new fuel to replace gasoline, and he won
the revolution movement.
This tone is marked by a purposelessness in living.
He's careless, indifferent, mildly pleasant. You'll probably like him. He
be attacking you, trying to undermine you, warning you, taking care of y
sopping all over you. He won't try to draw you into his game; he's not even p
much of a game. He's just watching it.
Boredom is somewhat negligent about facts; but you'll find him comfo
and amiable. He won't pick a fight because he doesn't care whether or not you
with him. If you introduce some static, he'll say, "Let's not argue."
He makes pointless, idle conversation. Although this easygoing guy m
able to tell you all about the neighbors, his mild gossip is never vicious. He's
what careless as to whether his communications are received or understood.
try to clarify something, he'll toss it away: "Oh, it's not important."
He accepts people, not necessarily because he's interested in them, b
cause it would be too much trouble to do otherwise. Ask him whether he thin
should hire Martin for the job and he'll say, "He's OK, I guess."
The 2.5 devaluates emergencies. If somebody comes along and says, "The
house is burning down. Hurry! Do something!" he says, "Well, now, don't get all
worked up about it."
He collects comfortable platitudes with which to dismiss all emergencies and
shed all responsibilities. Tell him you're trying to find a way to make more money,
and he'll shrug and discard the whole subject with: "Well, it takes money to make
He doesn't feel much need to do anything about anything.
Ask him what he's been doing lately; he'll probably say, "Oh, nothing much.
Same old thing." He putters and loafs. He collects useless information and trivia. He
may remember every baseball score since the beginning of time; but won't master a
new subject that could improve his whole life.
He'll never achieve greatness unless it's thrust upon him.
There's a moth-eaten, old joke about two Britishers talking: "I was so sorry to
hear that you buried your wife yesterday."
"Well, I had to, old man. She was dead, you know."
The 2.5 will laugh merrily at that one (he'll probably repeat it too). His sense
of humor is so literal that he likes the groaners. His attempts at humor will include
cheerful, but corny puns and platitudes – seldom original – which he will repeat pre-
dictably over and over: "Long time no see," "I should stood in bed," and "Well, shut
my mouth." The witty, original puns are usually the product of a 1.1. Boredom can't
be bothered thinking up anything original.
I was selecting ears of corn from a wheelbarrow in front of a farm house
when the owner strolled over. "Looks like nice corn," I said.
"Yup. Fresh too. Only been picked less than an hour. I know that for a fact,"
he leaned forward and with a conspiratorial grin, confided: "cause I picked it myself –
that's how I know."
Chuckling in appreciation of his own nimble humor, he bagged up the corn
and handed me change. This agreeable exchange represents the height of original
humor that will be attempted by a 2.5.
Not exactly a rapier wit, but a pleasant fellow.
As a father he's OK. He has a friendly tolerance of children, although he never
gets too involved in their affairs.
If you like a passionate relationship, scintillating repartee and hilarious high
jinx, don't hook up with Boredom. He's far too negligent to pursue you with any
burning passion. He won't even lose sleep worrying about whether or not you love him. If he wants to watch Wild Will Six-gun on television, he'll simply turn it on. He's
indifferent about getting your agreement or support.
Hardly the lordly cavalier; but he'll keep the grass mowed.
Although he doesn't look as active as many lowertone people, he'll drift along
fairly well on a routine job, and he'll be much better liked by his fellow employees.
He's a poor candidate for manager because he's incapable of getting others enthused
and too careless of support or participation. As an idea man, don't count on him. His
decision making is indifferent. Ask him, "How would you like to organize a big sales
campaign?" He'll shrug and say, "I don't mind."
Not persistent, too idle, concentration poor, he's willing to do the job . Just.
Boredom is a sort of high-tone Apathy. But there's flippancy in Boredom. It's
much more alive, carefree and extroverted.
This is the nicest person we've met so far on our trip up the scale. If you find it
hard to remember any Boredom people, it's because they so seldom say or do any-
thing memorable.
He's a man of unused ambition, pleasant and easygoing, who won't set the
world on fire – or even light a match.
He's neither contented nor discontented. He mostly wants to be entertained.
He's a spectator.
Ho hum.

Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
May 31, 2009 - 02:14am PT
I just want to belong to something, IS THAT WRONG???

You see we have no ritual of initiation in our culture

we leave it to the vultures...

Social climber
Ft. Useless, Virginia
Mar 5, 2011 - 12:17am PT
I've never quite understood what Scientology claimed to actually do for a student.

They promise to remove all the alien souls trapped in our bodies.

Social climber
Ft. Useless, Virginia
Mar 5, 2011 - 12:30am PT
speaking of scientology, check out this awesome recipe for a grilled cheese sandwich!


Mar 5, 2011 - 01:03am PT
Ever notice that Dr.Sprock disappeared after putting in all that drool in the previous page ......

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 5, 2011 - 01:24am PT
Who could or would read all that crap. What a waste.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 5, 2011 - 08:33am PT
What's wrong with Scientology?

Have you been audited?

Ever read a L Ron Hubbard novel? You know the ones targeted at 8th graders?

The Alpine

Big Wall climber
Mar 5, 2011 - 10:12am PT
I grew up in Clearwater, FL - the universe headquarters for scientology, so I've got a bit of experience with them.

So BESIDES them buying up tons of prime realty, tax free of course because its a religion, and basically shutting down any commerce not related to supporting scientology....

New recruits have to give up their posessions and pay into the 'church' regularly.

They work them like worker bees - low wages, work for the queen, return to the hive, don't speak up.

They don't do doctors. Many low-level people have died for basic issues such as dehydration.

So they've got these 2 cans that you hold that are hooked up to a meter. Reads out some sort of signal thats generated by negative memories. By doing this you can get rid of negative memories and improve yourself. This gives you access to more of their 'knowledge'. You must pay for each of these sessions.

The highest level people and 'knowledge' are on a ship permanently at sea.

Shitz crazy yo.

This is all stuff I've witnessed first hand.

Any questions?

Social climber
Mar 5, 2011 - 10:25am PT
What's wrong with Scientology is that it was started by an egocentric MAN. Sound familiar?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 6, 2011 - 07:50am PT
Disagree hossjulia (nothing personal mind you)

Whatever is wrong with any of these cult/religions has virtually nothing to do with the dead dudes that founded them, whether they passed through the veil darkly 25 years ago or 2000.

The faults belong to the living.


Trad climber
the pitch above you
Mar 6, 2011 - 07:58am PT

Yer not gonna argue that Scientology was rock solid before "Mr. Ascot" died, and has only since then lost it's way are you?

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 6, 2011 - 08:17am PT


Trad climber
the pitch above you
Mar 6, 2011 - 08:27am PT
OK, that's great news! I was just checking.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 6, 2011 - 08:46am PT
My take is L Ron Hubbard - the writer - was a cheap knock off of Robert Heinlein. He was also a con artist, but whaddaya gonna do? My reading of Battlefield Earth suggests their fare was similar - homoerotic scifi targeted at 13-year old boys. No wonder Tom Cruise fell in love with it.


Jim Henson's Basement
Mar 6, 2011 - 11:13am PT
OK- I'm not giving Scientology more than 5 minutes of my time, so I didn't read all 90 posts so forgive if this is is a repeat but...

Southpark does an awesome job of explaining Scientology.

What Scientologists actually believe (excerpt):


Entire episode is hilarious and pretty much explains everything you would ever want to know about Scientology without reading the crappy novels.

Entire episode:


They nearly got sued for revealing all the "secrets"

Social climber
Asheville, NC
Mar 6, 2011 - 12:39pm PT

that makes eckankar seem downright grounded.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 6, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
The First Church of Appliantology offers more satisfying accessories...LOL

Somewhere out there
Mar 6, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
its a cult

Mar 6, 2011 - 01:26pm PT

All the scientists go there .....

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 6, 2011 - 01:27pm PT
I belong to Flip Wilson's congregation, The Church of What's Happening Now.

Jim Henson's Basement
Mar 6, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
... and I don't subscribe to any religion where you have to buy your way into Heaven.

A long way from where I started
Mar 6, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
The First Church of Appliantology offers more satisfying accessories...LOL

Appliantology: The religion for those who have moved from pantheism to frying-pantheism.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Mar 6, 2011 - 03:14pm PT
For one, men with silk scarves?

But feather boa's are cool!
photo not found
Missing photo ID#193744

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 6, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
Certainly a thread worthy of 107 posts. Make that 108.

Mar 12, 2011 - 10:08am PT
Today is Hubbard's 100th birthday. Excerpt from a short bio:

Parsons described Hubbard as his "magical partner," and together the men engaged in a rite in which Parsons tried to impregnate with an antichrist child a woman he considered the whore of Babylon, a goal that Crowley had long promoted. With Rachmaninoff's "Isle of the Dead" playing in the background, Hubbard allegedly chanted spells over the copulating couple, according to Miller and others. (Ultimately Hubbard would steal Parsons' girlfriend and allegedly bilk him in a Miami yacht venture.) Years later, when Hubbard had grown famous and realized the antichrist episode didn't comport with his image as a man of culture and wisdom, he would reportedly claim to have been working on an undercover mission for U.S. Naval Intelligence to investigate black magic.


I would love to see tax-exempt status stripped from this giant scam...go ahead and make Cruise, Travolta and Beck howl.

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 12, 2011 - 10:20am PT
I never knew that.

Thanks for posting it, Dirt.

Seems like another dumb fuk.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 10:45am PT
Nice. What's next? Shall we do a thread about Jews and site only refernce from Nazi web sites?

Spread a little more hate, slander and bullsh#t.


Mar 12, 2011 - 11:06am PT
Give me a break.

Why should any "religion" be exempt from scrutiny and criticism?

Especially one with a long track record of corruption, control, and intimidation?


Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
Dec 2, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
what happens on a scientology cruise:

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 3, 2011 - 10:27am PT
The mormons have their golden tablets dug from a New Hampshire corn field.

Scientolgists have Terl

Why these people don't get some serious laughter thrown their way, escapes me.


Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 3, 2011 - 10:38am PT
Predator dreads, cool
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Dec 3, 2011 - 11:06am PT
hubby prided himself on being "a yachtsman," and i think, hence, the ascot. don't knock ascots, they have a place, as at horse races in england.

the best comment i've seen on scientology came in the movie "repo man". the principals are standing around a good old homeless people's 50-gallon-barrel fire somewhere near downtown l.a. one is reading a book, which looks a lot like the standard scientology handbook. the closeup on the cover, however, shows a slightly different spelling: "diuretics".

"makes a lot of sense," says repo man.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 3, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
No sh#t tony the guy who played that role nailed it.


Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 3, 2011 - 12:24pm PT
what's wrong with Scientology?


Sorry, but Scientology is a wicked cult.

People should know better. Look into their founder. Look into their doctrine. Look into what they teach. Look into what they do. Look into how hard it is to leave if you become a member and how these people are abused mentally and emotionally. Pure 100% Bovine Dung.
Off White

Tenino, WA
Dec 3, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
way back there, Chaz asked:
Can anyone who has a beef with Scientology tell us what's wrong with it, in your own words, without refering to an article someplace someone else wrote or a film on YouTube?

Or are you content to let others do your thinking for you?....Just like the Scientologists.

They didn't like a friend of mine's public criticism of them, so they printed up flyers warning neighbors that a sexual predator had moved into their neighborhood featuring her picture and distributed them in peoples mailboxes and stapled to telephone poles.

It they come to my house, I'm putting the dogs on 'em.
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Dec 3, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
ah but klimsie, scientology has a take on stargate, so to speak. so do you. your take versus their take.

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 3, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
The mormons have their golden tablets dug from a New Hampshire corn field.

Actually a hilltop near Manchester, New York, Dingus


Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
Dec 3, 2011 - 03:40pm PT
According to Hubbard, Scientology is an "applied religious philosophy" and is "a religion in that it addresses the spirit". At the beginning of many Scientology books this statement to the reader appears:

Scientology is a religious philosophy containing pastoral counseling procedures intended to assist an individual to attain spiritual freedom. The mission of the church of Scientology is a simple one-to help the individual attain full awareness of himself as an Immortal Being, and his relationship to the supreme being. The attainment of the benefits and goals of Scientology requires each individuals dedicated participation as only his own efforts can he himself, as a spiritual being, achieve these.

Hubbard founded Scientology in the 1950's. He was influenced by "in a nut shell" by Vedic Hinduism.

The Veda he writes...A great deal of our material in Scientology is discovered right back there. This makes the earliest part of Scientology, sacred lore. Another is Taoism. Hubbard states that Tao means Knowingness. In other words it is an ancestor to Scientology, the study of how of knowing how. Scientology claims that a Scientologist is a first cousin to the Buddhist.
sandstone conglomerate

sharon conglomerate central
Dec 3, 2011 - 03:44pm PT
we're all first cousins of buddha

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 18, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
Has anyone posted up his/her e-meter readings yet


Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 18, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
They guy who made it up is dead and just wanted your money.. like he told Heinlein.

Other than that it's excellent.

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Jan 18, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
"Church, cult; cult, church. Whats the difference? Just another way to be bored on a Sunday."

-Bart Simpson

Ironic quote, since Nancy Cartwright, the voice of Bart, is a scientologist.

When I was in highschool I took scientology's personality test and they fleeced me out of 20 bucks for a crappy book.

I'm 46 now and I still get mail from them.

phuq 'em

.....in a single wide......
Jan 18, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
my repost from '08 upthread..

* *

Chaz asked, "Can anyone who has a beef with Scientology tell us what's wrong with it, in your own words.."

Here is my story. 1980- was 23. Flew up from LA to Davis to interview for a job at UC Davis. I was supposed to have a place to stay for the night B4 I bussed over to Yosemite for a few weeks. Did the interview, but the place to stay fell through. Did not know what to do, so I did some buildering on campus to kill time. Fellow student chatting me up while I scale walls. He says he thinks he’s got a couch I can stay on.

Turns out to be his Scientology mentor's house and couch.. .

...and before I get to lay my head to pillow, I had to sit through a 2 hour Intro-to-Scientology session that evening. Mildly stimulating at best. OK- I want to go catch some zzzzz’s. Except- they would NOT let me be until I dropped $15 for their intro book. Communication- the book is titled. This their first step towards an enlighted self. Communicate well with others. Uh-huh.

Except i was staying in Yosemite and Tuolumne for 2 weeks, and needed every cent I had. I fought hard to keep my greenbacks, but was no match for their relentless mental arm-twisting. I ponied up the $15, got a safe night’s sleep, plus a ride to the bus station.

I actually perused the book a little while in Tuolumne. I mentioned it (and Scientology) to Randy Vogel, and he snapped me back to reality. Told me in no uncertain terms that Scientology was absolute bullsh*t. I knew this, but was already mildly under the spell. Never looked back, but I sure remember that taste of relentless mental arm-twisting.

Jan 18, 2013 - 08:39pm PT
It dawned on me a few weeks ago that a friend of mine trying to get me to listen to "motivational" tapes many years ago in college was probably pitching scientology.


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 18, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
what's right with Scientology?
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Jan 18, 2013 - 09:57pm PT

some gain something; but will it do anything for you?

If we asked this question at every turn would we be wise R?

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Dingus...good for them, but in my case no religion, no belief system, no cult will have the slightest effect on how I conduct my life.

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Anyone watch The Master?

My favorite film of last year

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
well DMT

some gain something; but will it do anything for you?

I think the proper question is how many don't or actually lose.
bit'er ol' guy

the past
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:20pm PT

Your debating the validity of scientology?

On an on line "climbing" forum?

I'm sorry......I can't even...


that's really lame!

Dingus McGee

Social climber
Jan 18, 2013 - 10:22pm PT

it sounds like you have made that evaluation: Will it do anything for me?

What is right with Scientology? You have suggested, "Good for them", to those that find something right with it. Let's say that what is good TO them is they can manipulate people using Scientology. Do you still have a feeling and wish such folks that manipulate in this way a pleasant approval like, "Good for them"?

dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Jan 18, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Jeff, you should e-mail Tom Cruise for the 15 bucks!

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 18, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
Dude left scientology & founded his own helicopter religion

Captain...or Skully

Jan 18, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
I'm with the bit'er ol' guy.

Social climber
So Cal
Jan 18, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
About 20 years ago, I got a bizarre call from an outfit that wanted to upgrade the lighting in their LA book distribution warehouse.

There were a couple of seriously weird dudes running the site.

I quoted a quite intentionally extravagant price.

The "You will never get paid by this bunch" antenna were on overload.

Trad climber
Nevada City
Jan 18, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
dirty manipulating bastards, using the guise of their "religion" to feast upon weak willed people. i happen to know a person who was manipulated into giving basically every cent they had saved to these people. coincidentally, she is not a scientologist anymore.

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 19, 2013 - 12:03am PT
what's wrong with scientology?

Answer: It is an organized religion.

Jan 19, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Scientology isn't even a religion. It's an organized scam posing as Religion.

There's no fuking religion at all in Scientology!

And then you have Donini saying

but in my case no religion, no belief system, no cult will have the slightest effect on how I conduct my life.

"no belief system"

Your whole being Jim is based on the "belief system" of climbing and that climbing promotes and keeps you alive, sane and healthy and that's how you conduct your life.

So your whole statement is a goof .....

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 12:37am PT
this is something i have been using on a daily basis since 1973,

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jan 19, 2013 - 02:31am PT
See http://xenu.net/, including the FAQ

I tried to visit this website but the filter at work blocked it as an "offensive voodoo/cult" website

That says everything that there needs to be said about Scientology.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Jan 19, 2013 - 02:50am PT

It ain't science. It's bullsh#t. Clear?

And it lacks Berkeley totally.

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 19, 2013 - 04:21am PT
I'm with the mouse and others on this one. What's right with Scientology? I was always always under the impression you are known by your fruits. This seems to be true on many levels.

Social climber
Jan 19, 2013 - 04:29am PT
I was heavily exposed to scientology in 1984; while dredging for Gold in the Klamath Basin.

I can tell you right now it is a scam, from the large amounts of money required to buy the books (discs or web access now more than likely) to the little black box they hook you up to; a holy amp meter of sorts.

I'm surprised Spock wasn't a scientologist, most Vulcans are.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 19, 2013 - 10:44am PT
Scientology is good stuff. Like a long hard climb in Yosemite, challenging, beautiful, and full of magic, also with rough spots and times you wonder what you are doing here but in the end completely satisfying.

30 years ago I cautiously approached the group, tested the water, then dove in. In very short order I was no longer a customer. I am a founding member.

I've met Mr Hubbard, I've read all the books. I've listened to hundreds of hours of recorded lectures. I've done just about every course, I've become skilled with the training. I have been helped greatly by this and I've been able to help others to live better lives through the use of this philosophy.

With Scientology I have been able to get along well with others, enjoy a rich and interesting life, get myself out of troubles, help others out of troubles, make more money and rock climb better.

There you go. Spider is out of the closet.
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:14am PT
and i thought you "liked the christian life". the only thing christian about scientology seems to be in its iconography ... about as "christian" as rosicrucianism.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:32am PT
Tony, I started that thread to help my Christian friends. Because I know how much is sucks to see your religion get kicked around.

Trad climber
Nevada City
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:39am PT
scientology makes you climb harder!?

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:47am PT
^ Fish On!
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 19, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
"scientology makes you climb harder"

No. It doesn't "make" you. It can help you climb a little better depending on how much of it you know and study.

It can help you over come fears. Dianetics is best for the that. It can help cure chronic unwanted sewing machine leg (Elvis syndrome). That is if practice and exercise isn't working.

I dare say that if you study it up well and practice it's philosophical discipline then you might climb a grade or two harder.

It is about life and how you as a being interact with the physical universe. Climbing is interaction with the physical universe in a very pure sense.

When you are climbing at a good hard level and challenging yourself with the determination to succeed, especially on lead or soloing, you can get to a place where the noise of mind just shuts off and you can just "be" and you are in complete control in a place where, strictly speaking, humans do not belong. That state of cause over body and the physical universe is what Scientologists are seeking with both feet on the ground.

Such a state climbers, especially good ones, achieve all the time for moments or even hours. A Scientologist is following a philosophical path trying to get there full time. Very much like the original Buddhist seeking state of Bodhi. It does work to get there through Scientology. But just like a good hard climb you have to work to get there. The more you practice the better you get at it.

Trad climber
Nevada City
Jan 19, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
sarcasm is sooo hard to tell in text. now i remember why i avoid religious/political threads - not worth the effort.

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 19, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
It's all explained right here. Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to red line the display needle and then take out your check book.

Credit: zBrown

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 19, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Locker, That Scientology you stumbled into in Boston many decades ago has grown. You are one of the ones who walked away. I am one of the ones who went in curious to find out more.

I am your friend. I am a Scientologist.

You can now say you have a friend who is a Scientologist.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 19, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
How do you reconcile the facts of scientology's negative impact on society with your personal positive experiences Spider?

Bruce, I have not read the book you reference but I have read every single book of Scientology. Stacked up they all about the size of an encyclopedia.

Having been deeply involved in The Church of Scientology for over 30 years, I am not aware of any negative impact it has had on society. Quite the opposite.

I am an ordained minister of this church. I have helped build it with my time and money. I have helped guide it and grow it from inside and from out. My grown children work there at high levels of the organization. I have worked at high levels of the organization and I have many friends in all levels of the organization. If you ever had a problem with the group, I could help you get it sorted out.

Critics of Scientology:

1. Just heard some crap about it from an unreliable source and innocently enough believed that false information thinking the source was reliable.

2. Want what Scientology has but had some upset with individuals in the group who failed to help them get what they needed and wanted.

3. Are part of a special interest that is deeply threatened by what Scientology has to offer since it would eliminate the need for their livelihood, eg., tenured professors of psychiatry, drug dealers, psych-drug makers, astrologers, hypnotists, people who want to see you strictly controlled and not running around free having ideas and a good time in life. These are the guys producing the alarming books, web sites and other sources horror stories. Some of them are quite mad.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 19, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Locker, I apologize on behalf of the Church for sending out someone who just wanted your money instead of giving you what ever it was you needed that might help you. We try to hire the best people we can but not all are perfect.

You can get just about every bit of Scientology for free at the public library or on line at www.scientology.org these days.

You just have to know the right Scientologist.
What should have happened.
What should have happened.
Credit: Spider Savage

EDIT: Disclaimer - Will not make your dick bigger.

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 19, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
How do people fall for this crock o'sh#t?

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 19, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
EDIT: Disclaimer - Will not make your dick bigger

How about your head?

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
if you want to mount a good argument against something,

the first step is to actually know something about what it is that you are dishing,

i mean you guys would make piss poor attorneys,

like kelly slater, people who did not even know the dude were ripping him,

what's up with that?

no, i am no longer a seismologist for L Ron Hubcap,

members joke about L Ron and the tech all the time,

question authority, that was the attitude along the way,

ask anybody who rips the church what they actually know about it,

the answer will always be the same,

been that way for the last 40 years

never met anybody who knew jack sh#t

but that does not stop them from flappin those lips does it?


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
how many of these books have you read?


wow, what a surprise,


prejudice, racism, bigotry, all the same,

fixed opinions, what are they?

an open mind, what is it?


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
one serious fault with the church is the people who run the missions,

there are good missions and bad missions,

just like there are good catholic churches and bad churches,

i do not know what the missions are like now days,

maybe the people who now run the place really suck,

that is my own lack of knowledge at work,

maybe i lucked out,

maybe it sucks today, if so, i apoligize to whoever had a bad trip with it,

but i had a relly good time and so did everybody else,

Robert Reefer, this black dude that looks like Link in the Mod Squad,

dude made me laugh so hard, never met anybody like that since,

Rev, the ex Buddhist, Phd from UC Davis, knew more about eastern philosphy than anybody, he was a real heavy dude,

i would probably not like it much today, too many straight people f*#king it all up,

so like every group, it is all about the people,


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 07:22pm PT

a fantastic drill,

never had so much fun,

but of course nobody knows what the f*#k it is so why try to explain it to close minds anyway?

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 19, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Haven't looked into it but probably no better or worse than the rest. I consider all religions to be science fiction based.
Walking on water, transubstantiation, ascension into heaven, feeding the multitudes, getting your own planet, rising from the dead, virgin birth.....need I go on?

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
explore everything and take the good from it,

why should people who know nothing about something stop you from exploring it?

are they afraid of the unknown?

or just supressive people who f*#k up everybody no matter where they go?

knowledge replaces fear,

if you are afraid, learn something about what you are afraid of,

Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 19, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
I bet Tony knows about this.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Tony Robbins?

now that guy is a crook,

and he burned up some peoples funky bare feets,

L Ron never made us walk on coals,

but i am sure there is a rumor about it happening,


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 19, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Tony gives me the gitters. Geeez.....what if i got a life coach like him and found out i had not come near my potential. Damn...at nearly 70 i would feel such guilt for those wasted years.

I know....when i come back i don't want to be Lebron, i want to be JUST LIKE Tony!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 19, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Tony Bird, the guy on the alien-visitors * 9/11-was-an-inside-job * evolution-by-intelligent-design thread.

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 19, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
Please tell me more about Xenu, the intergallactic ruler. I'll paypal you $$$$$$. My body thetans are aching for more of your knowledge.

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 19, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
God is Love, therefore whoever reincarnates love more fully should be followed:

have you read "The Letter Killeth"?

then don't go talkin' sheeit about Jim Jones (btw he torched the e-meter offscale - clear down to Guyana) that's his helicopter pilot upstream

gimme little water Sylvie
every little once in a while


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 19, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
God is love....what a crock of shite. Love is love keep avatars out of it.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
most people who argue about something have some sort of knowledge about what they are arguing

ultra lame to cut something that you have no clue about,

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
To the original question Everything. I had one friend get sucked into it, fuccked his min up.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
it is not about scientology,folks,

it is about knowing what you are talking about,

if you hate honda civics, please please tell me you have at least rode in one for 1/16 th mile,

not " i know someone with a civic and he says, she says,"

get it?

fixed opinions



that is what i do not like,

if you say i really disagree with chapter 4 of Self Analysys,

then i have something to work with,

then i might think you have some credibility,

ok then, where;s my hash pipe, i need to go OT on all this giberish,


Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Yes, people eveywhere say that they find their religious beliefs helpful, comforting....gives them hope, solace. Researchers also find in drug studies that people say that the placebo they are unknowingly taking is helpful, comforting....gives them hope, solace.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:37pm PT

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
Mother Theresa comes to mind

then again

so does Torquemada.

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
c'mon Nemoy

One had to attend the People's Temple (I thought that was just for the Jews, another story) in order to render an opinion on Jim Jones?


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
where's the beef?

between who's legs?

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
grain fed?

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 19, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
i spent about 100 bucks in my year there,

they have a free library,

if you get on staff, you can work up the ladder for free,

so there goes the flimsy money argument right there,

most of the OT,s worked their way up,

what else you got?

anything with substance?

any experience what so ever with the tech?

no, of course not,

some people make a livin out of talkin sh#t,


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:08am PT
again, no first hand experience, so argument void of substance,

.....in a single wide......
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:14am PT

give this one a read....

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:17am PT
i used to be the guy who walked around campus trying to get folks into the church,

hardest job in the world,


there is so much mis-information, so many unfounded rumors, so much BS people were telling me that i got fed up and switched over to Estates, which is taking care of the building,

if you have 8 million people in an organization, then you are gonna get a few folks who will not be happy,

these are the folks you are linking to,

we need to hear from current scientologist or ex scientologists in person,

i am getting emails from taco members who are afraid to argue because they do not want the ridicule caused by a bunch of uninformed mutants, which is sad,


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:30am PT
do me a favor,

if you have any balls at all,

go out on the street tomorrow and pretend you are a Seismologist,

approach a complete stranger and try to get them to come down and hear a lecture,

see what happens,

see if you can get somebody to listen for 1 minute,

i bet you can't do it,

but if you do manage to actually hold a conversation with somebody,

tell me what crazy stuff they have heard, because it is always amusing,

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:37am PT
Most religions, for all their faults, will at least contribute something positive to the mix - " love thy neighbor", Golden Rule, etc.

But we're still waiting for Scientology's ONE positive contribution to society.

Jan 20, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Dr Sprock comes out of the closet with Scientology and calls his leader "Ron L Hubcap" ......


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:46am PT
Kirstie Alley Actor 12-Jan-1951 Rebecca from Cheers
Anne Archer Actor 25-Aug-1947 Fatal Attraction
Beck Musician 8-Jul-1970 Loser
Catherine Bell Actor 14-Aug-1968 Sarah MacKenzie on JAG
Karen Black Actor 1-Jul-1942 Five Easy Pieces
Trevor Bolder Guitarist 9-Jun-1950 Uriah Heap bassist
Brandy Musician 11-Feb-1979 R&B singer turned sitcom star
Nancy Cartwright Actor 25-Oct-1959 Voice of Bart Simpson
Erika Christensen Actor 19-Aug-1982 Caroline in Traffic
Chick Corea Jazz Musician 12-Jun-1941 Jazz keyboardist
Tom Cruise Actor 3-Jul-1962 Flamboyant Scientologist
Eddie Deezen Actor 6-Mar-1957 Mr. Potato Head in Wargames
Bodhi Elfman Actor 19-Jul-1968 Son of an Elfman
Jenna Elfman Actor 30-Sep-1971 Freaky chick on Dharma and Greg
Frank Kelly Freas Artist 22-Aug-1922 2-Jan-2005 Illustrator of science fiction and fantasy
Doug E. Fresh Rapper 17-Sep-1966 Rap artist
Soleil Moon Frye Actor 6-Aug-1976 Punky Brewster
Isaac Hayes Musician 20-Aug-1942 Black Moses, also Chef on South Park
Amy Heckerling Film Director 7-May-1954 Fast Times At Ridgemont High
Katie Holmes Actor 18-Dec-1978 Joey Potter on Dawson's Creek
L. Ron Hubbard Religion 13-Mar-1911 24-Jan-1986 Perpetrated Dianetics, Scientology
Jason Lee Actor 25-Apr-1970 Mall Rats
Juliette Lewis Actor 21-Jun-1973 Natural Born Killers
Chris Masterson Actor 22-Jan-1980 Francis on Malcolm in the Middle
Danny Masterson Actor 13-Mar-1976 Hyde on That 70's Show
David Miscavige Religion 1960 Leader of the Church of Scientology
Corin Nemec Actor 5-Nov-1971 Parker Lewis Can't Lose
Judy Norton-Taylor Actor 29-Jan-1958 The Waltons
Liz Phair Musician 17-Apr-1967 Exile in Guyville
Laura Prepon Actor 7-Mar-1980 Donna on That 70's Show
Lisa Marie Presley Musician 1-Feb-1968 Daughter of Elvis Presley
Priscilla Presley Actor 24-May-1945 Elvis's wife
Kelly Preston Actor 13-Oct-1962 What a Girl Wants
Leah Remini Actor 15-Jun-1970 Old School
Giovanni Ribisi Actor 17-Dec-1974 Sky Captain's Dex Dearborn
Mimi Rogers Actor 27-Jan-1956 Someone To Watch Over Me
Billy Sheehan Guitarist 19-Mar-1953 Former Mr. Big bassist
Ethan Suplee Actor 25-May-1976 Frankie on Boy Meets World
Gabor Szabo Jazz Musician 8-Mar-1936 26-Feb-1982 Innovative jazz guitarist
John Travolta Actor 18-Feb-1954 Saturday Night Fever
Greta Van Susteren Journalist 11-Jun-1955 CNN journalist, plastic surgery victim
Edgar Winter Musician 28-Dec-1946 Albino rock star
Woody Woodmansey Drummer c. 1951 Drummer for The Spiders From Mars

have not practiced for 40 years,

but i still remember how to run an L3rd list against a failed F/N after the 4th R3R command,

everybody at the Davis mission called him L Ron Hubcap,

we were just a bunch of hippies looking for the next big thing,

we got the tech and moved on, some stayed, but most returned to normal life,

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 12:57am PT
i forgot Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues


Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:16am PT
A lot of people who play pretend for a living seem to be prominent among The Faithful. That's another good reason to steer clear of Scientology.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:17am PT
why is it a church?

because they Help people.

every Sat night we had Graduation.

people get up and tell their success stories,

saw a lot of people come in and change for the better,

most were much happier with their lives,

some were so overjoyed that they were almost too corny to listen to,

when you see so many people making gains, it is spiritual,

therefore i have no problem with the Church thing,

besides, don't we need a modern church?

the bible is cool and everything, but how old is it?


Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:19am PT
AA helps people, too. But they don't require you sign over to them all your material worth before they do it.

Big Church only wants ten percent tithe, and for that, Jesus makes the sun come up in the morning.

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:24am PT
But we're still waiting for Scientology's ONE positive contribution to society.

Unintended, but I'd say usenet after the cancelbot wars (usenet servers stopped accepting cancel messages after that).

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:25am PT
100 bucks

Dianetic Auditor, Comm Course Graduate, Study Course Graduate,

you can buy books now without being a memnber,

use to be you had to be a member,

so go down and get a book,

just don't let the guy talk you into anything else,

don't buy Dianetcs, that book sucks,


Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:36am PT
Went to a great flamenco show tonight. I feel so much better about myself and the universe now. It was sort of organized and there was a collection and people were pretty rabid so I guess it was a religious experience.

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:40am PT
Or EST. Whatever happened to them?

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:40am PT
that is just a temporary buzz,

auditing fixes stuff forever,


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:44am PT
you need to fly your rudes, (rudiments)


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 01:47am PT


Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 20, 2013 - 02:38am PT

One of the numerous actions by the Co$ to shut down discourse.

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 20, 2013 - 02:45am PT
Sign ME the fuk up. Sea ORG my ass. I need HELPPPP.

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 20, 2013 - 03:29am PT
Quote me some Xenu stuff man. I want top level pricey sh#t. Tell me about aliens and volcanos.
Patrick Sawyer

Originally California now Ireland
Jan 20, 2013 - 07:35am PT
Yes Chaz, I personally know three people that tried to leave Scientology and were abused, threatened and intimidated.

I do not need to read or hear or view anything on these nut cases who think DC-10s transported people across the universe.

I know three people (friends) who told me their stories, and the troubles they encountered by this cult group.

But why are you such a supporter of this cult?
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 20, 2013 - 09:18am PT
yea, sprocker. i got a blister on my scroll finger now.

i think we've finally gotten spider to put some cards on the table, but there's a couple things wrong with his story.

one is the timeline. hubbard started this mofo in the early 50s. doesn't quite jibe with spider being in on the ground floor.

perhaps we've got a spider game going here. he caught the artful locker in a pretty web. watch him riggle and jiggle.

and then we hear that spider's "i like the christian life" thread a few months back was merely a "sympathy" gesture to the poor, persecuted christians whose beliefs are likewise ridiculed mercilessly on supertopo. i'll revisit all that after my blister heals.

let's suppose that chris really is a scientologist. let's suppose that, along with every other "religion" of any stature in the world, that it's basically a cargo cult on steroids, the result of contacts--carl sagan contact-type contacts--which genuinely happened--that is, if you can think of ufo contactee and abductee experiences as "genuine". i'll tell you one thing for sure. the people these things happen to sure think they're genuine, and they easily convince others of it.

people who have gotten high up in scientology, and then quit, have reported the "inside" story of mother hubbard's ET contacts. i'll bet you'll find the same sort of stuff in 2,000-year-old unpublished "scripture" behind the heavily guarded doors of the vatican library. it isn't really very exciting any more. swing low sweet chariot, adios ezikiel, half a dozen spielberg movies ... and yawn.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 20, 2013 - 10:18am PT
Good morning. I do have somewhat of a life outside of Supertopo. (But I do look forward to retirement so I can be here 24/7.)

Doc Sprock was doing a good job saying what I would say yesterday but then late last night he went completely off the rails. As he says, he has not been on board in nearly 40 years but he has tasted the Kool-Aid. He is definitely not on the inside and would be booted quickly for posting the garbage he digs up and dumps here. Practicing Scientology requires a discipline that he does not have. But thanks for giving it a try Doc. And thanks for the earlier posts.

The fact is Scientology is great stuff. All this horror and crazy crap written about it is 180 degrees opposite.

What more could I do than state my experience. You have to see for yourself directly if you are going to have a valid opinion.

Newspaper writers make no money writing that Mr Savage got into Scientology and it helped him quit drugs (which were really bringing him down) and achieve his personal spiritual goals far beyond all expectations. ZZZZZZZZZZ

A much better story is the a gullible fool was brainwashed into doing all sort of embarrassing things and was bilked out of lots of money. Better throw in some deaths, and wild stories about aliens to make it even more crazy. Ah,, there is a something that will sell.

Brainwashing is when you give up your own personal integrity and believe whatever you are told.

Scientology is the exact opposite. Scientology helps you to stand up, be your self, see for yourself what is true and what is not. Hubbard demanded that you think for yourself (Scientology; The Fundamentals of Thought).

The following short video was made by a friend of mine who I took climbing in Yosmite when he was a kid. Many of the other people pictured are friends of mine and one helped me put up the route Vestal Virgin at Texas Canyon.

Scientology is the realest thing you will ever find in this crazy world.

Believe it... or, Not.

I'm going climbing now. After that I'm going down to Sunset to work on my next Scientology course. You are always welcome join me. I'll make sure you have a good time.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Jan 20, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Freedom of Religion = License to Rip Off the Gullible

Give me all your money, then I'll make sure you'll get to go to the Happy Place when you die where you'll be reunited with all your family and loved ones. All the neurotic dependency games you played as a child will go on forever and ever.

Now, just give me all your money!

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 20, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Spider said:

The fact is Scientology is great stuff. All this horror and crazy crap written about it is 180 degrees opposite.

ok, I admit to just reading up on Scientology lately thanks to this thread

i have read reams, loads, all kinds of bad stuff about it.

So let's hear all the "great stuff" about it!

Can you take the lead Spider and educate me, a brief summary, perhaps?

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jan 20, 2013 - 03:10pm PT

No great stuff?

Not even one such stuff?

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
there is nothing good about scientology

stay away

it does not work,

just go on the way you are,

keep a closed mine so everybody will like you,
Captain...or Skully

Jan 20, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
The only reason for a guy, any guy, to join a cult is for chicks.
Got any scientologist chick pics?
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 20, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
i say go easy on chris. he's a decent guy, and it took more than the usual guts to "come out" about this on here. stop your attention whoring about scientology and try to have a dialogue with him. we might learn something. he might learn something.

speaking of chicks, when i worked for berlitz translations, we had one hot blonde babe in the graphic arts department who was, unfortunately, a scientologist. all the jokes about it stopped when she was around. say what you will about this cult, they manage to attract some beautiful people.
Captain...or Skully

Jan 20, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Alleged Hot Scientologist chicks, so far, big head guy.

Jan 20, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Good post Tony.
Captain...or Skully

Jan 20, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
They're still alleged hot scientiligist chicks, so far.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 20, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
they had jokes back in 73 like;

"what do you call a gay scientology couple?"

"a 2D Fruti"

2D stands for the 2nd dynamic, which is sex,

get it? prertry funny, eh? or not.

and we hated chick corea music,

just because your a scientologist it does not mean you can't suck,

bit'er ol' guy

the past
Jan 20, 2013 - 09:16pm PT


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:03am PT
well, that cuts both ways,

what did we call the general public, Wogs was a word i remember, Normies,

if you want to get the best and skip the rest, and for cheap, this is what you do,

skip the clearing course and OT levels as the "price per benifit" tends to get worse as you move up the ladder.

they figure if you made it that far, you can surly sport down some big bucks for the advanced levels,

maybe even take a road trip to saint hill if your really loaded,

well, us hippies and drunks at the Kappa Sigma frat house at UC Davis we Required to take the 50 dollarr Comm Course down on Olive Drive, right across the street from Murder Burger,

ok, so it was not like i got talked into it by some street seizmologists, i was getting pressure from the Frat Ratsm so i took it,

but being a broke college student i could not afford the 600 dollar Dianetic Auditors course, or the $1500 dollar Life Repair, or the $4,000 Drug Rundown, so the option they give you is to join the staff.

now i recieved No auditing from the center, only Training.

there ar two ladders in scientology, the training side, and the auditing side where you go OT,

so we train and audit each other, pretty slick, make high priced shrinks out of Normies and have a self perpetuatung machine,no PhD in Shrikology required,

L Ron was a genius in many was, and us Frat boys could smell a few things we didn't like, we were the worst skeptics in town, that is why very few of us did anything more than the Comm course and maybe the PRD, which is the Primary Rundown where you sit there with a dictionary and look up 10,000 words and define them visually with a Demo Kit, which is a can full of junk, you use the objects in the Phicial Universe to Demo out the concept,which is another concept that works extremely well.

now why these frat Rats at Kappa Sig took Seizmology, I will never know, worst frat on campus, latter shut down for gang rape and hazing,

ok, here is what you do if you want the best for cheap,

buy the books online for the Study Course, the PRD, buy Self Analysis, and steal as much info off the net on auditing up to The Grades, Level 4.

everything above the grades was L Ron just keeping product coming down the liner as people ran out of stuff to pay for,

you get the most benifit on everything up to The Grades.

books can be had for 5 bucks used, so you can read good stuff for about 20 bucks and move on to Budhism or the next best thing.

oh, and i took apart my emeter, those are a total rip, so i bought mine used for 200.

now they sting you for mega bucks, so if you need the schematic, forget it, i lost it a long time ago,

it really is a good circuit, works very well,

yoiu can watch your thoughts move the needle around, tripped me out,

Mary Sue Hubbard was Hot!

but we frat boys did not like L Ron cruising around on that huge boat, those things are a money chewing machine and we knew where the money w2as coming from,

felt that if he really loved humanity, he would have lowered prices and bought a smaller boat, does anybody have a pic of that thing?


Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:21am PT
Interesting story there. So your fellow frat boys pressured you into Siesmologly? That sounds super weird. Don't frat boys usually pressure you into chugging beers and stuff like that, and not joining a cult?

Maybe in Canuckistan we roll a little different.

Oh that documentary BK linked had footage of the boat. It was ridiculous. Hubbard seemed to suit his boat.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:25am PT
Garbachic, a Plant Major, had a Jungle in his room,

and a Keg going at all times,

in the basement were torture tools, and ladders and stuff,

you had to take a dump into the bucket while on the ladder, then take the Comm Course

yeah check it.

paid straight up cash

he owns that refinery also, there up yonder on the ridge,

Credit: Dr.Sprock

Gold Canyon, AZ
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:38am PT
The fact is Scientology is great stuff.

So is meth if the downside doesn't matter.


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:40am PT
whats so wrong with meth?

sonny barger likes it, an american hero,
Lemmy still does it,

hall of famer for sure,


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:44am PT
try to get Lemmy into Scientology,

that would be Mission Impossible, even for that gay punk tom cruise,


Gold Canyon, AZ
Jan 21, 2013 - 01:51am PT
whats so wrong with meth?

Nothing I guess.

Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 21, 2013 - 08:27am PT
let me vouch for chris a little bit. we climbed together once, musta been back in the 90s, something up rattlesnake canyon during an scma trip. he still hangs out with that group and has an abiding interest in the mountains. he's probably a pretty good backcountry telemarker as well, although he keeps talking about going skiing with me and it never seems to get past the talk phase. i think perhaps there's been the matter of clearing some air first, and i'd very much like to pursue that on this thread.

chris is also responsible for a number of well-conceived sport routes in southern california. i've climbed some of his good lines in texas canyon. no, he isn't a bigtime hardman. i don't think he's put up much beyond 5.10s, but a solid sport developer is appreciated by the whole climbing community around here, and chris gets kudos from me for that. we get a lot of blab on supertopo about the best climbing areas, as well as a lot of criticism of the crummy rock we mess with around los angeles. the days of casually jumping in the car and driving 600 miles every weekend ought to be over. the close-in routes are a tremendous asset to our city population, and chris is one of an important group which has given this attention.

chris has also been a welcome, if somewhat cryptic, presence on supertopo. i'm not about to subscribe to scientology, but he tends to keep his cool better, and address most issues with a lot more class, than the common denominator. he also has a sense of humor which comes through in what he writes. your average supertopo buffoon only seems able to express himself by cutting up magazine pictures. i will stand by this bro because he has something to say, he says it well, and he doesn't make an effing pest of himself.

Jan 21, 2013 - 10:43am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#285314
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 21, 2013 - 02:22pm PT

Any questions?
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 22, 2013 - 09:51am PT
bump for spider savage. has he gone off on an extended road trip? or is he finally pushing that 5.11 line at texas canyon?

just a few side notes on scientology.

1. bill briggs is a lifelong scientologist. from his hall of fame citation:

Bill Briggs is regarded as the father of big mountain skiing in the United States. He was able to imagine and believe it possible to ski in places where no one else had skied before. His first ski descent of Wyoming’s Grand Teton on June 15, 1971 is regarded by most as the single crystallizing moment in American big mountain skiing. He also completed the first high ski traverse in the Canadian Rockies and the first modern ski descent of Mount Rainier.

briggs is also a very respectable rockclimber and banjo picker, and a personal friend of bob dylan's from the days they both played greenwich village coffeehouses.

2. i recently came across the work of paul twitchell, who was in scientology during its early days in the 1950s. he seemed to get right up there to the top, but then he went on to other things, incorporating a possibly imaginary excursion into tibetan mysticism into his "eckankar" religion.

i think there are some interesting parallels between twitchell, carlos castaneda, the "transmigrated" lobsang rampa, and a contemporary entity named anastasia (no, not a certain greek anastasia of mammarian fame) who seems to have captured the imagination of many russians. all are insightful adventures into spirituality which are arguably entirely fictional. arguably.

3. as long as we're talking climbers and cultism, someone posted a photo awhile back of jim bridwell sitting at a picnic table at camp 4 reading a book that looks a lot like a bible. "that's jim's bible," someone commented. it isn't quite that simple. jim's "bible" is a book called urantia, which is yet another opening into realms where many fear to tread.

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Jan 22, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Always knew there was something "off" about any grown-ass man running around calling himself "Spider".

My intuition was CLEAR (godddamn, I even got a bad scientology pun in there!)

Gotta say though, it's alwasy good to have the nutjob cukoos stand up and put the dunce cap on themselves...easier to avoid them in public that way.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 22, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Well said Bruce, it could be a brilliant philosophy, but how many brilliant philosophers started their own cults, let alone tricked people into joining by not disclosing who they are to the recruits. They seem to prey on naive and depressed people, certainly not a unique attribute of cults and religions. This group has a thousand red flags, even if it wasn't based on science fiction.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 22, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
probably 50 percent predatory,

half the people who came in were friends of people already in who thought it was cool enuff to invite their buddies,

the other half was raw meat, pulled in from the campus,

a contrast to the people involved can be seen with the Davis Mission and the Downtown Sac Mission.

Davis was full of lonely college students away from home for the first time, they made very good seizmologists because they were smart enough to get into UC, which means that they did not have any heavy drug addictions or Serious alcohol problems, yet.

now compare that with downtown Sactown, winos laying in the sidewalks of alkali flats, homeless freaks wandering back and forth to Loaves and Fishes, these were the denizens of the deep who were dredged up in order to meet the monthly goal for new pre-clears,

so when we had a group graduation with Sac, i was very happy to get the heck out of there and back to the Normal type seizmologists,

so your mileage may vary depending on where you are located,

vice pres from LA came up and told us that Davis was very special, and probably the best mission in the united states, so the people do make a difference,

we had some pretty good parties every sat night, people gettin drunk, dancin, pickin up fellow seizmologist chicks for the night, havin fun and getting the tech at the same time, so our image to the public was very different from waht was actually going on,

back then at least, i would probably not get involved in the church today, simply because it don't have the same vibe,

Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
i'm not here to defend scientology, bruce. spider's supposed to do that, and i think he got gun shy.

as usual, mighty hiker knows everything. but i'll bet he can't ski everything.


Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 22, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Scientology is no different than any one of another 15 organized religions around the world. The only difference is it's age and doesn't have as many members..

You could make a religion based on an old shoe and people would follow it. See "The Life of Brian" for details.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 22, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
if you want to see if it is BS or not, talk to a Clear or an OT.

everyone i talked to was floating off the ground, like they were on acid or something,

but these folks usually do not tell you what they are on unless you ask,

Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:16am PT
i've got a good religious crime for you, bruce. and a lot of government crimes for that matter, but would they lead you to try to withhold your income tax? or is that an option in canada?

the religious crime is the murder of pope john paul the first. it isn't a well-known conspiracy theory, but it's pretty much outlined in the book in god's name by the british investigative writer, david yallop. this upright churchman, pope for less than a month, was poisoned because he was about to do two things: legalize artificial birth control for catholics, and blow the corruption of the vatican bank out of the water. the result was the unholy and deadly marriage of two interests--the oldfart cynical cardinals who like to dictate bedroom practices, and the financial mafia of italy, playing fast and loose with other people's money and using the vatican bank as a handy laundry.

i guess i have to explain why i bring this up. you'll have a hard time convincing a lifelong practicing catholic that such a crime ever occurred, much less to give up their faith because of it. it's easy to rag on scientology. even easier, i think, to rag on the catholic church. i just thought we might have had an opportunity here to talk about the subject with chris, but i think he's taken his toys and left. seems to be a lot of that going on these days.

Sport climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:30am PT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:32am PT
explain how he reconciles the crimes of the institution of Scientology with his material / spiritual gains from the same institution

Crimes? What crimes? All the evidence was supposed to have been purged back in the 1970's. See United States v. Mary Sue Hubbard et al.

Sport climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:42am PT
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:47am PT
Dudes, I gotta work and do other stuff. Plus, everything I had so say has been said.

You want to argue with me about someone's false information about a subject on which you are not expert. I don't have time.

I will try to address all sensible questions as I have time.

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:16am PT
My 22 cents:

In the mid-80's L. Ron Hubbard was living at his Creston ranch, about forty miles from San Luis Obispo. When he died, his handlers tried to spirit the body out to the crematorium - but quick - without any sort of autopsy. The local sheriff, Ed Williams, would have nothing to do with that - there would be an official autopsy, same as any other death in the county.

Well, they found L. Ron was full of drugs and chemicals, some of them used to treat psychiatric disorders. Since Scientology claims such drugs are worthless, harmful, etc., it was a bit of a PR headache for the group. They claimed he took the psychiatric medicines for other reasons, not because he was a raving lunatic.



There are, allegedly, stainless steel sheet pages protected in titanium boxes, hidden in a cave near Trementina, New Mexico. They supposedly comprise all the writings and ravings of L. Ron Hubbard. The idea here is, a future civilization will dig them up, and erroneously believe that our present civilization, or at least a significant portion thereof, believed in what Hubbard had to say.

I'd say it's a case of pre-emptive archeological fraud.

I really, really admire their efforts to document something now, that can be found by people in the future. I just wish it comprised more practical knowledge, like current technology, and not just a bunch of hagiographic hokum.



Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:22am PT
Ya know ya gotta be careful the baby still ain't in the bath water when ya chuck it.
Hitler did some gud things too. The Autobahn and the Beetle are gud, right?

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:23am PT
new book out

Lawrence Wright

Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood & the Prison of Belief.

he's long gone
ridin' down to Texas
with the rodeo


Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 24, 2013 - 01:16am PT
Sounds like someone's imitating the Mormons. As gold fake scriptures had already...

They were described by Joseph Smith as "gold-colored" ...they couldn't have been of 100% genuine gold content for several reasons

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 24, 2013 - 01:43am PT
Since you asked... :-)

Witnesses estimated the weight at about 50 lbs...considering their size, pure gold would weigh around 200 lbs.

With high gold content, the pages would bend but not have resilience to spring back.

Witnesses said pages were engraved on both sides...that would be very unlikely with high gold content.

Gold pages would be too soft for three rings to bind them.

Some metalurgists say copper alloyed with a small amount of gold was used by ancient Americans, had a gold color, was resilient and highly resistant to corrosion.

I'd better go to bed before Riley accuses me of being a "paid plant" for the Mormon Church, again... :-)

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 24, 2013 - 02:15am PT
Long, unsubstantiated details left out.. but. My grandfather was waaaaaaaay into it (as in personal buds with l Ron). At one point, in order to get the magic underwear or some such, he paid an ungodly amount of money. My grandmother went apeshit and wrote them a letter, demanding the money back. She got it. All record of him was erased and years later, my aunt was blackballed from a job at a joint they owned. For having the same last name. Silly!

Edit: no offense Jennie!

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Jan 24, 2013 - 02:46am PT
No offense taken Michelle…

I was curious if your grandfather was a Scientologist or a Mormon?

The two organizations aren’t affiliated. Mormon temple garments aren’t really more expensive than common store bought undergarments and there is no charge for performing the ceremony (beyond having the garments.)

Oh, I see you wrote “L Ron” so apparently your grandfather was a Scientologist. I don’t know a great deal about the inner workings of Scientology, their clothing or ceremonies. I read about two thirds of Dianetics but it didn’t go into rites and rituals as I remember. 

Best regards!

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 24, 2013 - 02:48am PT
this is why the cult thing started,

the endless bullcrap,

this is why there is the divide,

an apathy towards the stupidity of the general pubic,

a welcome isolation from moronic and unfounded criticism,


Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 24, 2013 - 03:40am PT
Lol, I meant the magic underwear comment
Delhi Dog

Good Question...
Jan 24, 2013 - 07:50am PT
What general pubic?

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:14am PT
So what would you call well founded and credible criticism of the COS? Does it exist?

Seems like every ex-member that criticizes them in the media gets called a liar by the COS.

Same story, over and over...
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 24, 2013 - 10:46am PT
what the hell was he doing on Super topo in the first place?

spider savage, a longtime rockclimber, route developer and ski mountaineer, has one hell of a lot more business being on supertopo than "bruce kay, gym climber".

but i don't think you've addressed my points, chris, and i think they're reasonable. you don't fit the timeline of having been in on scientology since the beginning, which i believe was 1952.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 24, 2013 - 11:03am PT
I say I am a founding Scientologist because the movement is many times larger now than when I started. It is also a statement of responsibility. I've worked to help build this organization in many ways along with thousands of others.

Scientology offers a new paradigm for a much better life for all of us. The practical philosophy, is a great improvement over past values of religious dogma or of psychological theories coming out of universities over the last 100 years or so.

It is about you as an individual and how you can do better and help others to do better in life.

I and my friends want to GIVE you this knowledge. We want you to have it. To enjoy life more.

You can look for yourself or listen to the crazy alarming crap that people publish on the internet or in tabloids.

There are a few crazy people in the world who definitely do NOT want you to be smarter, more able, more happy. Fvck 'em!

Here's another short vid. About 1/3rd of the people in this one are personal friends of mine, come to my house, etc. The girl who want's to wear the Scientology pin is a friend of one of my daughters. I've taken her climbing at Stoney Point too.

EDIT: It would be fun to do a video like this about rock climbers.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 24, 2013 - 11:20am PT


Free online courses at www.Scientology.org

All books are in the library.

You can form a co-op with others who are interested. The Church is very happy to support these. They are called Dianetics Counselling Groups.

Going all the way up the line requires many hours of work, support staff, buildings and facilities.

Legend has it Jesus could heal people for free just like that. *snap*

Hubbard could fix you up in a week or two in a few hours a day.

He couldn't do everyone so he figured out ways the people could get together and fix-up each others. It was a long strange trip but here we are. It's not easy but it works pretty damn good.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 24, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Guys, I have already answered both of your questions. However, you are not satisfied.

The easiest thing would be for you to just believe whatever you find on the Internet.

Bruce - I could show you a blank piece of paper listing all actual harm Scientology has caused. You could go to the Scientology web site and explore for all the good stuff we have done. Not what you want to hear though.

Locker - You're kickin' my ass dude. Money. Serious subject for some people. I just want enough to pay my bills, finish my Scientology classes, and go hang in the Valley for a few months a year. I've donated huge money (by some people's standards) and I've gotten every penny and much more back in satisfaction. Some folks are materialistic and don't get the money for knowledge deal. How about college? I get people coming to me for work who paid $80,000 for some bullshit degree and they can't even fuc'in spell. Do a study class in Scientology for $2,000 bucks and skip the 80 grand college degree. Worked good for me. You seem to be retired and happy for a bag-o-weed. Good for you, Makes you feel good. I liked the high okay but the fogginess afterward sucked. Pretty much felt foggy all the time. Add up all you've spent on weed in the last ten years? What percentage of your income? Don't answer. Just something to think about. Money for what? Feeling good. Sounds fair to me.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
the funny thing is that the skeptics are the ones that end up in the church,

the people who do not post on this thread have no interest either way,

they just go on in life, they are happy the way they are

as a Disseminatior, when i heard the endless questioning about rumors in the paper or from their friends, i knew i could get the sucker down there and improve my stats.

because if they are talking with you for a few seconds, you know you have a chance.

but most people politely walk away without an exchange on the subject and you can't kidnap them, so life moves on,

so asking about money and bad trips at least means that you might be somewhat curious.

the problem is most folks want a one paragraph explanation of exactly how the tech works and how it can make them really happy,

the problem is that L Ron wrote about 10 billion words on the subject so it takes a while to learn everything,


Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
Sometimes it's worth coming at it from another angle.

So, what's right with Scientology?


Ice climber
the ghost
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
L Ron wrote about 10 billion words on the subject

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
ok i can tell you all the secrets,

but it is gonna cost ya,

should i set up a paypal account?

somebody asked for the code and i put it up and then they said it was too long, wtf, over?

Captain...or Skully

Jan 24, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Just another crock pot filled with smaller crock pots.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Wouldn't that be a Sprock Pot?

Captain...or Skully

Jan 24, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Mmmmmmm, could be.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
remember the line

"what is true for you in scientology and dianetics is what you have observed for yourself"

translation: if you don't get this stuff, be truthful about it and move on to something you connect with, we do not want to keep you into something if it is not working for you,

you need a tough defense with all the world BS constantly attacking you,

Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Scientology is a scam, plan and simple. The head of the Cult is a giant con artist, and if you get in their way.....better watch out.

What lessons are taught in Scientology, that can't be found for free by those seeking.


CON Job.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 24, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
your right.


Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 25, 2013 - 02:34am PT
Today's Fresh Air:


Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Jan 25, 2013 - 05:12am PT
It is made up.......... IMHO

Social climber
Vancouver, BC
Jan 25, 2013 - 05:44am PT
Bruce, don't even bother asking anymore. All you're gonna get from him is suggestions to come and see for yourself, drink the kool aid.

Brainwashed, blinded, sheep herding cult.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:32am PT
You guys posting you snide comments. You are so clever. You are the brainwashed. Those aren’t even your original thoughts. You saw those comments in some magazine somewhere once. I bet you don’t even lead hard trad. Whimps!
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 25, 2013 - 10:32am PT
Bruce, Ah… the 1970s. There is a story there.

In mid ’77 the FBI raided Scientology in Los Angeles & Washington DC. Biggest government raid on a Church ever. I was not there. There is a Supertopo member who lurks here who was right in the thick of it. I’ll never “out” them, but maybe that person will come forward some day.

I think it was almost 300 agents. Came in tore the place a part and seized our papers. Yes we had a lot of paper then. Dangerous paper.

The end result was 6 executives, and I think the founder’s wife, had to do hard time for 3 months in the federal pen. It was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they had been using government photocopy machines without permission. This was back when they had just been invented so photocopies were costly.

The government had been after us for decades and we were gathering data for lawsuits to get them to stop it. Since then, all has been resolved. The government let’s us be and many government officials are grateful to us for the help we give them. For the last 24 years or so we have been at peace with the US Gov.

The German government still hates us though.
Jolly Roger

Trad climber
here and there
Jan 25, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Yes, I have dust mites from space all over me, currupting my life.


It is hard for one to see when they are in fact involved in something that is not right.

If these teachings are so important, and the path to salvation through enlitement and becoming you. where you find peace.

Then why is the head of your operations such an as#@&%e. I personally would never get involved in any group, where the leader is an evil, greedy, vendictive son of a bitch, who inflicts pain on others. Has them confess their evil thoughts about himself, and then beat and imprison them for it. Sounds like a stand up dude to me.

Sure makes me want to go out and convince young people to join.

It's a pyramid scheme. you know it to, but you are too vested to look at your belief structre. It would mean you have been part of a lie, and noone wants to admit that.

I feel bad for all these young people, getting trapped in it's grasp.

There are plenty of converts out there, telling the truth about the inner workings. Hard to dismiss such information.

Get out while you can.

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
I guess the Scientology weirdos even have their own jail they call "The Hole". Senior members can spend months or even years there.


Trad climber
Nor Cal
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:18pm PT

Thanks for the link to the interview, just listened to it. Very Interesting.

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 25, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
you pimp-ass monks will never have the coin to find out about this stuff in the first place, so why bother to even worry about it?

ha ha ha, suffer on with yo broke azz!

hide the money y'all, theirs po folks in the house,

these folks get all excited about finding a free biner, so how the heck are they gonna make it thru life repair?

scirntology is about good people getting better,

no losers allowed.

we don't want you contaminating our space,

(just trying to stimulate rude conversation to keep this thread at the top and the advertising revenue coming in,)


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
mod squad?

here is the order of operations:

1. get teeth fixed

2. get scientology

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Good teeth are essential to maintaining a psychic connection with Xenu . . .

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 25, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
but your problem is mental, not dental,

just like david lee roth,

Forrest B.

Trad climber
Jan 25, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
How the hell did this cult achieve religion status. What other religion charges for goods and services?

Just a quick google search explains soo much. So many people ripped off.

Secret meetings by managers, discussing which members have the most money and deciding who they should target.


Any tacos involved should leave asap.

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jan 25, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
It was ordained.


.....in a single wide......
Jan 25, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
i just read this .. pretty much confirms what I'd read previously.


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jan 26, 2013 - 05:52am PT
nobody forces you to stay in scientology.

all you have to do is leave.

if they hassle you, call the cops.
they can be aggressive, i alienated myself from the church one afternoon and was smokin a joint at the frat house and her comes Norm, this wired up curly red haired midget who was in charge of my trip up the ladder, he must have been psychic, he acted pretty OT even though he was only grade 4 anyway,he's like, "he dude, whats up, i like the allman brothers Blue Sky (best morning joint smokin tune in the world) but you can't smoke weed and go OT!
so i got back "on track" and coffee and ciggies were the thing.

see, i wanted to "infiltrate" the Program. work both ends at the same time, study seizmology in the day time, smoke weed and listen to Pink Floyd at night, kind of a "hybrid" enlightenment. that's why i took Training only.
i wanted to learn the secret code before they used it on me, get it?
i was a double EE at davis, i wanted the A squared plus B squared sh#t because i was curious about tech sh#t for the mind,i could care less about clearing the planet, i wanted to know what all the fuss was about without paying, kind of like you guys,

that way i could do it myself and save money (kind of like masturbation) but called coffee shop auditing)but it don't work that way. i figured weed is good, scientology is really cool, why not combine them and have the total edge?

well the problem is you can not audit out past life BS while on weed, because weed is great, but while on it, you have the awareness of a monkey;s as#@&%e, but this is why we smoke it! to tune it all out.

there was a Lot of "non standard tech" being applied back in the seventies.

LRH can not be everywhere at once, so if you have 8, million, there is gonna be trouble somewhere, simply because you can not control that many people in a precise fashion.

there were a lot of ex acid heads and pot heads and beer drinkers and hell raisers back then, can you imagine the church full of these types without the drugs?
i mean, imagine Neal Cassidy doing the Drug Rundown (where they try to audit out all bad trips and awareness problems)he would have to spend 3 million bucks just to get that course done.

there were many letters sent by Ronnie, one of them was Blinkless TR-0.

somebody mis-understood the comm course drill where you sit across from somebody and stare at them without moving, talking, or blinking.

it was a Flunk if you blinked.

many people learned how not to blink in at the Davis mission.

he said " i really appreciate you guys being that committed to where you have trained yourselves to do the impossible, which is don't blink,but guess what? The eye need to blimk!"how somebody twisted this easy drill into something really weird, i don't know,

i bet if you do a search, you can find the HCOB on blinless tr-0.

so the people were f*#king up the tech, not ron.

this is a source of constant irratation for the church, and many auditing sessions have been given to people who have been mis-handled in some form or another.there is a strong effort to keep this crap from happening, as the bad PR gets blown into such weird sh#t by the time it hits the papers.

LRH also wrote volumes on business management that are used by non scientology companies everywhere.

if you get a chance to read this stuff, you will see the genius at his best,

there are people who are already like OT-7 scientologist in life who have had no auditing or scientology of any kind,

they don't need it, they are born naturally clear,

an example of that might be Joe Montana, or some other super over achiever,

these lucky folks don't need nuthin to kick ass,

but do not envy them, envy is the quickest way to hell, right?

L Ron did not come up with all the stuff, he just condensed everything he learned from mny different areas and made it his own.

what is the Goal of scientology?to keep you in PT, Present Time.

this means never dwelling on he past for one second.

always the future,

the better you have your sh#t together, the further you think into the future,

herion addict thinks about next fix, OT 7 thinks about avoiding the black hole that he will encounter while traversing the universe in 29,7889,989, get it?

how many people can say they have never spent a moment thinking about past problems?

well, when your OT, you are always in present time. if something f*#ks up, you handle it quick and get back on the time track,

a speeding ticket will stop you on your time track, a DUI will really stop you in time, you will worry about a past moment while everybody is moving ahead,

sometimes really bad things happen along the time track that can hang you up for years, a death in the family, getting fired, getting in a bad accident,

what you want to do is keep moving along the time track without getting stuck on say, 1989 when you lost your stock or some other BS.

so the goal is to stay in PT and not get hung up and if you do, handle it.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 26, 2013 - 08:00am PT
How did Katey Holmes get out???


Jan 26, 2013 - 08:07am PT
Being a hot celebrity probably helps.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 26, 2013 - 08:14am PT
I thought she looked kinda... tired, there for a while. (I mean what WAS that evil man doing to her???!!!1111)

Sucking her soul out her bum, doubtless.

I was like... whatEVER!


Jan 26, 2013 - 09:41am PT
Lately, she does look better, like a burden has been lifted. I kinda get the feeling she never really fully bought into Scientology in the first place.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jan 26, 2013 - 10:28am PT
Prolly right but at least he got milked! Lol. She appears to be warm. Lastun's just a cold fish. Harhar


Jan 26, 2013 - 10:41am PT
Hey, anyone got any good Katie Holmes boobie shots they'd like to share?
Tony Bird

Northridge, CA
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
there are a couple of interesting listings of "famous" scientologists. i'd say maybe 10 percent are names which are generally recognizable. the rest are actors who had a role in a movie or television show which might be recognizable. and not much "famous" outside of showbiz.

you do have to hand it to scientology--it has a considerable presence in hollywood. it doesn't take much inducement for a frustrated youngster off the bus from terre haute to walk in the front door of their "celebrity center" to see what it's all about and decide maybe it's the ticket to networking in a cold, cruel industry.

the ranks of scientology are heavy with the pretty. hollywood is flooded with the merely pretty trying to cash in on--being merely pretty. then you have those who've gotten themselves miserably addicted to one drug or another. some turn to christianity. i guess scientology has its own offering. if life got better for you, you have my congratulations. maybe you never did much thinking for yourself in the first place, so you don't even miss it.

Somewhere out there
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
…. you mean aside from its cult status?

Big Mike

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
Spider- You still haven't really told us what the church is to you or how it helps you in your everyday life? Could you possibly elaborate on that?

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Scientology's "hole"


lovely organization!

Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
A bunch of people who think that they are their own God. That way they only have to answer to themselves.
That’s my take on it anyway.

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Being a hot celebrity probably helps.

Being a hot celebrity with a hard-ass dad and brother who are divorce lawyers probably helps more.

Trad climber
Feb 5, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
L.Ron Hoover....you're a latent appliance fetsishist it appears to me. -FZ

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
In the same class of cults

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 7, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Big Mike - Thanks for asking. I see you are a real climber too.

1. Communication - as in stuff you never learned from school or at home. Scientology offers a Communication course at the front door. Communication as in to talking to people and being understood. This is the true foundation of the whole movement. Upper levels just lead you to being better at just getting on with others. I'm currently on my 25th anniversary retread of the professional level communications training required to work as a counsellor. In going over the material again I found some hidden gems that will help me to listen to others and be less of an overbearing as#@&%e at times. My climbing partners should notice a difference.

2. Understanding human emotion. In the book Science of Survival, Hubbard lays out a Chart of Human Evaluation and explains each part of it in detail. This is some really valuable information that allows me to accurately predict human behavior. This allows me to make friends with just about anyone and has helped me greatly in surviving a career in the Los Angeles advertising agency scene.

3. Dealing with problems in life. Helping get past the petty problems that are thrust on me and onto some nice big ones that are problems of my choosing.

4. Financial Conditions; There is a very workable philosophy from the book Introduction to Scientology Ethics. Following these common sense steps can get you through rough times and into the black. I have made way more money throughout my life because of this than I would have otherwise. Making money is not a matter of luck. It is a matter of effectiveness.

There are many other facets to this philosophy but these would be the top 5 every day useful things.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
Scientology is hard for many people in the Western World to grasp because it is more like an Eastern Religion.

In the Americas and Europe you grow up with one big God and worship worship worship. The reason to do that is so you don't burn in hell when you die (so they say).

In Eastern religions, that haven't been twisted into Western style dogma, you have the individual searching for enlightenment; Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, Taoism, Confucius, and some bits of Hinduism. Scientology is more like that, yet completely different in it's path to enlightenment.

As a young man I rejected monothesitic dogma and found metaphysics. I wanted to know more about creating reality and past lives and immortality. Lots of people talkin' but nobody with any way to get there. After actively searching I found Scientology and there it was. Everything I wanted was all laid out I just had climb up that ladder (or cross the Bridge as we call it on the inside).

Pretty much all the crap said about Scientology is exactly opposite.

What would happen if something really good came along?

Don't you think it would piss off a lot of people who had a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

If want to know about Scientology, you need to get it direct from Hubbard through a book, or a video or class. We don't interpret his work. We like to get it directly.

People who "investigate" it are full of crap. They think they see an easy way to make a buck.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
What about the space aliens? That seems like the best part.

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:14pm PT
People who "investigate" it are full of crap. They think they see an easy way to make a buck.

I'm not trying to make a buck. Scientology is, on the other hand.

I don't buy it.

Knowledge should be free to anyone who asks, especially spiritual knowledge, should not be kept secret.

Scientology is a secret society. Secret knowledge is corrupt knowledge. Secrets are kept in order to exercise control over (the minds and finances and labor) of other people.

It is a cult. If you quit you must sever all ties to any family still "bought" in to the church.

Effing, wake up and think for your self.

(Jeez, and I thought Mormonism was crazy)

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Feb 7, 2013 - 09:16pm PT

Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 7, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.
L. Ron Hubbard

* Response to a question from the audience during a meeting of the Eastern Science Fiction Association on (7 November 1948), as quoted in a 1994 affidavit by Sam Moskowitz.

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
check out this new book on Scientology:


Pretty crazy stuff the author talked about yesterday on The Colbert Report...beatings, involuntary confinement, blackmail...
Then again, I woke up this morning to more news of Cardinals covering up child sex crimes....

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 8, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
I heard the interview with the author on NPR yesterday and he sounded very honorable. He made it sound as though while The Church's lawyers have made lots of threatening noises they haven't actually filed anything against him, yet. That speaks volumes as to the veracity of the book.

Gold Canyon, AZ
Feb 8, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
Scientology may be no more irrational than any other religion. That still doesn't mean its adherents aren't completely nuts.


Ice climber
the ghost
Feb 8, 2013 - 10:46pm PT
Scientology is hard for many people in the Western World to grasp because it is more like a Ponzi scheme
fixed it for ya

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 8, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
Everything you need to know about scientology can be distilled down to a single phrase and concept introduced in fourth-grade texts in their grade schools: "senior knowledge".

Beyond that there is really no need to know anything else about them.

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Mar 12, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
What is your take on the movie "the master" ?

not suprisingly scientologist didnt like it:


Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Mar 12, 2013 - 07:59pm PT

Trad climber
phx AZ
Mar 12, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Years and I mean years ago, I tried to choke through the book "dianetics" that i got through the mail (way,way pre internet). Every week in the mail came crap about buying some sort of "meter" and it was EXPENSIVE. I forget what use they were supposed to achieve, but I do remember price tags -300 - 2500 smackers - utter nonsense in my military day pay. After 2 or 3 chapters,I knew it was bullsh#t. I cannot believe anything about scientology to this day. My rant --over !!

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Apr 24, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
this guy is my fav scientologist

Credit: S.Leeper

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Apr 24, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
is that Van Morrison?

i heard he relapsed, chasing the dragon again,

May 13, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
So are those alien movies cruise and smith are starring in supposed to be documentaries?

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Jul 3, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
L ron getting his groove on


Mar 12, 2015 - 10:37am PT
Two hour documentary on Scientology titled "Going Clear" is debuting on HBO March 29. I'm sure the church is none too pleased by it.

Here's an interesting interview with one of the collaborators for this documentary:


Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:44am PT
Shouldn't this thread be merged with the fraternity/sorority thread?

Mar 12, 2015 - 10:48am PT
Half Sole = $32.00 + one years income...

Who needs Scientology? Locker will save your sole.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 12, 2015 - 10:53am PT
Like all religions Scientology is a creation of man.....Hubbard just had a little bit more of a bizarre imagination than most.

Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
I haven't read through this thread and admit to knowing very little of Scientology and the only first hand experience I'm aware of is on a rare occasion seeing the Dianetics folks with tables set up in public spacers in NYC with those meters and books.

I saw the movie The Master a few weeks ago and it made me curious to try to gain some slight familiarity with Scientology.

Among the first things I came upon was all sorts of draconian activity. The behaviour appears to be that of morally defective individuals, psychopaths.

List of Guardian's Office operations

"From its establishment in 1966 to its demise in the early 1980s, the Guardian's Office (GO) of the Church of Scientology carried out numerous covert operations and programs against a range of perceived opponents of Scientology in the United States and around the world. The GO sought to discredit, destroy or otherwise neutralize – or "depower", in Scientology jargon – any group or individual that it regarded as anti-Scientology. Instructions for such operations were distributed in the form of individually numbered "Guardian Program Orders", abbreviated as GPgmOs, which were distributed from the GO leadership to GO branches in Churches of Scientology and ultimately used to task agents."

Operation Freakout
Operation Freakout, also known as Operation PC Freakout, was a Church of Scientology covert plan intended to have the U.S. author and journalist Paulette Cooper imprisoned or committed to a mental institution. The plan, undertaken in 1976 following years of church-initiated lawsuits and covert harassment, was meant to eliminate the perceived threat that Cooper posed to the church and obtain revenge for her publication in 1971 of a highly critical book, The Scandal of Scientology. The Federal Bureau of Investigation discovered documentary evidence of the plot and the preceding campaign of harassment during an investigation into the Church of Scientology in 1977, eventually leading to the church compensating Cooper in an out-of-court settlement."

Cooper, a freelance journalist and author, had begun researching Scientology in 1968 and wrote a critical article on the church for the British magazine Queen (now Harpers Bazaar) in 1969.[1] The church promptly sued for libel, adding Queen to the dozens of British publications that it had already sued.[2][3]

Undeterred, Cooper expanded her article into a full-length book, The Scandal of Scientology (subtitled "A chilling examination of the nature, beliefs and practices of the "now religion.'"). It was published by Tower Publications, Inc. of New York in the summer of 1971. The church responded by suing her in December 1971, demanding $300,000 for "untrue, libelous and defamatory statements about the Church."[4]

1972–1976: Operations Daniel and Dynamite[edit]
Cooper was seen as a high-priority target by the church's Guardian's Office, which acted as a combination of intelligence agency, legal office and public relations bureau for the church. As early as February 29, 1972, the church's third most senior official, Jane Kember, sent a directive to Terry Milner, the Deputy Guardian for Intelligence United States (DGIUS) directing that he collect information about Paulette Cooper so that she could be "handled".[5] In response, Milner ordered his subordinates to "attack her in as many ways as possible" and undertake "wide-scale exposure of PC's sex life", a plan which was named Operation Daniel.[6]

Cooper counter-sued on March 30, 1972, demanding $15.4 million in damages for the ongoing harassment.[7] However, the church stepped up the harassment, for instance painting her name and phone number on street walls so that she would receive obscene phone calls, and subscribing her to pornographic mailing lists. She also received anonymous death threats and her neighbors received letters claiming that she had a venereal disease.[8]

The second of the two forged bomb threats
In December 1972, the Church launched a new attack called Operation Dynamite. That month, a woman ostensibly soliciting funds for United Farm Workers stole a quantity of stationary from Cooper's apartment. A few days later, the New York Church of Scientology "received" two anonymous bomb threats. The following May, Cooper was indicted for making the bomb threats and arraigned for a federal grand jury. The threats had been written on her stationary, which was marked with her fingerprints.

The charges were eventually dropped in 1975 with the filing of a Nolle prosequi order by the local US Attorney's office, but it was not until the fall of 1977 that the FBI discovered that the bomb threats had been staged by the Guardian’s Office.[5] A contemporary memorandum sent between two Guardian's Office staff noted on a list of jobs successfully accomplished: "Conspired to entrap Mrs. Lovely into being arrested for a felony which she did not commit. She was arraigned for the crime."[8]

The church sued Cooper again in 1975 in the United Kingdom, the United States, and Australia in 1976.[9][10][11]

The church itself was reported to have imported Cooper's books into foreign countries for the express purpose of suing her in jurisdictions where the libel laws were stricter than in the United States.[12]"

Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
Mar 12, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
The Guardian's Office scandal

On July 8, 1977, 134 agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation simultaneously stormed the Church of Scientology's offices in Washington, D.C. and Los Angeles, seizing nearly 50,000 documents and other evidence.[40] The raids were in response to the federal government's discovery that the Church of Scientology had been carrying out a secret and highly illegal "dirty tricks" campaign against government agencies, individuals, and institutions deemed to be enemies of Scientology. A year later, on August 15, 1978, Mary Sue Hubbard was indicted by a grand jury, accused of masterminding a conspiracy against the government in her capacity as head of the Church's Guardian's Office.[41]

Mary Sue was appointed by her husband as Guardian (later Controller) of the Guardian's Office (GO) in March 1966.[42] Established in response to the battering that Scientology was receiving at the time from governments and the media, the GO was tasked with tackling any "threat of great importance" to Scientology. This work took a variety of forms, including public relations, legal actions, and the gathering of "intelligence" on perceived enemies. In the UK alone, it issued hundreds of writs against the media for publishing negative reports on Scientology. It carried out an international campaign against psychiatry, Interpol, the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and various other government agencies.[43] Its eventual downfall was to result from the use of illegal methods, ordered and authorized by Mary Sue, to further its campaign.

Mary Sue was promoted to the position of Controller "for life" of the Guardian's Office in January 1969, with one of her subordinates, Jane Kember, being appointed to Mary Sue's old post of Guardian.[44] Mary Sue continued to manage the GO from her various abodes aboard the Apollo and, later, the villa in Tangier. At the order of both of the Hubbards, the GO ran scores of often illegal operations against Scientology's enemies. The targets were not just external enemies but dissident Scientologists; in 1969, Mary Sue wrote an order directing the GO to cull information from the confessional folders of Scientologists, breaking a rule of confidence that was supposedly sacrosanct.[45] L. Ron Hubbard was said to have been fully aware of the GO's actions; the US government would later declare him to be an "unindicted co-conspirator" in the GO's illegal activities.[46]

One of their primary targets was the IRS, with which Scientology was engaged in a bitter battle over tax exemptions. As part of a wider strategy codenamed Operation Snow White, the GO succeeded in infiltrating a Scientologist into the IRS to steal files about the government's litigation strategy against Scientology.[47] Mary Sue was closely involved in the strategy; a letter written by her, approving the thefts, was later used in evidence against her.[48] In March 1976, she approved an illegal plan to obtain "non-FOI data" from the government, meaning classified documents not available through the Freedom of Information Act.[49] The GO's agent in the IRS, Michael Meisner, was ordered to obtain all files concerning L. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard from the IRS Office of International Operations, which he succeeded in infiltrating.[49]

The espionage continued for another three months before Meisner's luck ran out and he was caught in June 1976. Although he bluffed it out initially, a warrant was issued for his arrest in August. The situation was potentially disastrous for the GO and caused panic among the leadership. Mary Sue conspired with her subordinates to concoct alibis for Meisner and work out how to keep him out of the hands of the authorities, keeping him in hiding under a series of false identities.[50] Meisner became increasingly reluctant to cooperate with his GO handlers and in April 1977 he was forcibly taken by GO staff to a new hiding place. He succeeded in escaping in May and turned himself in to the FBI, making a full confession. The raids of July 1977 were the result.[51]

The case eventually came to trial in September 1979, following months of delay occasioned by a fierce rear-guard action by the Church of Scientology's lawyers. On October 8, a deal was struck between the government and the Church that the nine defendants – including Mary Sue – would each plead guilty to one charge of conspiracy if they agreed to sign a written stipulation by the government (essentially a public confession) of what they had done, thus avoiding a lengthy trial. They were formally found guilty on October 26, 1979. Mary Sue and two others received the heaviest penalties, a five-year prison sentence and a $10,000 fine. The other five defendants received lesser sentences and fines.[52] Her husband avoided being indicted but was extremely concerned that Mary Sue would betray him.


This sort of behaviour is the product of Delusion/Confusion, Greed, Aversion/Hatred. The sanction for such behaviour reflects very poorly on the institution and it's values. That isn't to say that individuals cannot derive spiritual benefits from Scientology, and the light can shine through even the dirtiest glass.
But one needs to be extremely careful when associating with psychopaths and morally defective individuals. The difficulty is that it may not always be apparent who is who. Psychopaths can be charming, intelligent, and beautiful. People risk being turned into programmed puppets, sexually or financially abused, they can lose their jobs, family, or sanity, and risk disillusionment from pursuing any spiritual quest.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

Out Of Bed
Mar 13, 2015 - 07:50am PT
Largo used the term "going clear"or getting clear, in the most recent post to What is mind; here :
- Mar 12, 2015 - 10:06pm PT, post #4824
Tvash, you come up with some remarkable claims. Who married "spiritualism" with a non-local watcher? I have no idea even what spiritualism is? Is there a spirit involved? Who's spirit? Does it speak "the English?" What does it tell you?

What's more, memory is required for for the mind to register things and events and to formulate a history that our discursive minds can reflect on as say, "This is 'my' experience. This is happening to 'me.'"

What do you suspect happens when - as PSP has been pointing out - you let go of "you," and reflecting on the past, and even abandon experience of all things and stuff and thoughts and perspectives? You are insisting that the mind simply MUST work this way and only this way, according to your absolutes - in this case, "all" and "must" betrays your hand.

The mudra, a certain way of holding your hands in your lap that has been around since about 200 BC, is a sure way to shift your attention from being fused to memory,
and to start getting clear.


lovegasoline,this goes for any and IMHO, all the 'churches'. . .

This sort of behaviour is the product of Delusion/Confusion, Greed, Aversion/Hatred. The sanction for such behaviour reflects very poorly on the institution and it's values. That isn't to say that individuals cannot derive spiritual benefits from Scientology, and the light can shine through even the dirtiest glass.
But one needs to be extremely careful when associating with psychopaths and morally defective individuals. The difficulty is that it may not always be apparent who is who. Psychopaths can be charming, intelligent, and beautiful. People risk being turned into programmed puppets, sexually or financially abused, they can lose their jobs, family, or sanity, and risk disillusionment from pursuing any spiritual quest.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 13, 2015 - 08:08am PT
it made me curious to try to gain some slight familiarity with Scientology

If you want to find out about something, look at it directly. Not through the eyes of haters.

To reiterate, I've been on the inside of this group for 35 years and have enjoyed a much better life as result.

I'm not a follower, I helped, along with thousands of others, to build it. It is not a secret cult. The doors of every Church and group are wide open.

You'll not find the truth in the media because there is no story. Money for the media only comes from generating false controversy by singling out people that might be different and making them look like a freak show.


Apr 3, 2015 - 07:54am PT

So I watched the documentary last night and the stories of abuse are absolutey horrifying.

But even if you put blinders on and say all the former members in the program--all former higher ups, btw--are malcontents and liars, the documentary includes videos of former members being harassed by the "church." You can see it right there in the footage. What mainstream church harasses its critics like that?

Scientology has serious problems.

Apr 3, 2015 - 07:58am PT
And btw, the church and some of its members were offered opportunities to respond and participate in the film. They chose not to. Smearing people is more their style.

Apr 3, 2015 - 08:03am PT

That thing is called a church?

Those Scientology criminals even publicly said it's a business.

It's a criminal business run under the flag and cloth of so called religion by a group of nutcase mafia style sh!theads.

Stooopid loons fall for these bullsh!t artists ....
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:11am PT

I'm in agreement with the smoking duck.


Apr 3, 2015 - 08:21am PT
Good catch, Werner. I put deliberately put "church" in parentheses the first time I should have done it in the second post too.

Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:27am PT
It is hypocritical when a religious person is making fun of other religions.


Apr 3, 2015 - 08:36am PT
Moose watch the HBO documentary going clear.

Even their head honchos who ran this criminal enterprise for Miscavige and were able to defect this bullsh!t outfit will tell you the same.

These guys were Miscavige's top thugs and loons until they woke up and realized what they were really doing.

If you actually believe this is a bonafide religious group then you are in the same boat the Scientology devotees have fallen for .....

Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:44am PT
Sure, Werner. Vatican is scheming people for 2000 years, but that's OK. Christians are holly!


Apr 3, 2015 - 08:53am PT
but that's OK. Christians are holly!

You said it not me.

I didn't say it's OK


T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Apr 3, 2015 - 08:54am PT
Moose watch the HBO documentary going clear.

Yeah Moose give it a look,
I saw it a few nights ago and recommend it as well.

Miscavige and his officers are criminals running a business under the guise of religion.
When will he poison the Kool-Aid?


Apr 3, 2015 - 08:54am PT
Moose, at most I'm an agnostic so I don't have any allegiance to any organized religion. You really cannot compare the modern Catholic Church to the money mind f*#k organization Scientology.

Does the Catholic Church tell its members to shun apostate family members? Does it harass former members? Punish members by isolating them for years while making them perform menial labor in horrible conditions for pennies an hour?

What would happen if you attended mass for years, then decided Catholicism wasn't for you and left? You might get a phone call from a few concerned members, but would you be harassed? Would you be deemed "suppressive" and isolated from family and friends who were still members?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 3, 2015 - 09:08am PT
Just another religion led by a paranoid psychotic egomaniac.
These people can't help themselves, they rise to the top and will do anything to get what they want.

It just shows how easily people can be convinced of anything if you put the right labels on it.

All you have to do is promise riches and the secret to a better life now, or in the after life.

They're all suckers.
Every Religion consists mostly of suckers, that's the scam,
get a bunch of suckers to give you money and power for a promise that can never be fulfilled.

I've watched about half the money so far.
L. Ron Hubbard is one scary dude, you can see him lying through his teeth without hesitation.

Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Apr 3, 2015 - 09:10am PT
Dirtbag, moderm Catholic Church evolved under pressure. 500 years ago was much worst than Scientology.

Why people fall for that crap? I feel sorry for them.


Apr 3, 2015 - 09:13am PT
Mr Drool.

This thread is about Scientology.

You want to get into The Catholic Church then you need a new Topic.

Focus on the topic.

Your mind wanders all over the place .....

Apr 3, 2015 - 09:22am PT
It's more like the mafia.

Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Apr 3, 2015 - 09:42am PT
Werner, I am on topic.

What's wrong with Scientology?

It is an organized religion, that's what wrong with it. Power and money.

Scientology is just an easy target for you. Go ahead, get outraged, feel better about yourself. You are so superior!

Flip Flop

salad bowl, california
Apr 3, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
Can you feel the Love, Jesus? Can't you just feel it?
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