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travelin_light
Trad climber
california
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 13, 2008 - 11:30am PT
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Are these reliable? Good metal quality? I planned on using a a plated wedge design (3/8" x 3") in bomber granite in an alpine setting.
I know there is better stuff but is this an adequate selection?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Aug 13, 2008 - 11:53am PT
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Don't concern yourself. Odds are they'll hold.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 13, 2008 - 12:01pm PT
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I've used those for sandstone but it's been awhile (10 yrs) and I don't know they are acceptable by modern standards. Three inches sounds pretty deep for bomber granite, especially if you are hand drilling.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 13, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
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I have used red head bolts - in poured concrete footings.
Obvious comments.
You have to have a hole with good geometry
the hole has to be clean
the harder the rock the better
If someone's life is riding on it, do you really want to go cheap?
If you are going to do it, do it as well as you know how.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 13, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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There are some cheaper wedge anchors out there, and I really can't recomend using them.
If you're going to the trouble to drill a hole, use a good bolt. When you consider the effort and expense to travel to a remote location, spending a few more bucks on a good bolt just doesn't amount to much.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Aug 13, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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You can buy 3/8"x3" SS bolts for just a few cents more than plated steel. You should use SS wherever possible.
Bruce
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pcousar
Sport climber
White Salmon, WA
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Aug 13, 2008 - 01:37pm PT
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Hey BHilden, could you post a link for that comparison???
edited....
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Aug 13, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
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Yes, my friends and I use 'em - in VERY hard granite and ONLY Stainless. sizes 3/8" x 2.25" to 3/8" x 3"
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Aug 13, 2008 - 03:12pm PT
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www.mcmaster-carr.com
Bruce
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 13, 2008 - 03:18pm PT
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I've heard that real climbers use only 1/4" Rawl compression split-shaft bolts.
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jahmon
climber
AK
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Aug 13, 2008 - 04:04pm PT
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I just bought a box of 3/8" x 2.25" stainless red heads, they went for just under $1/. Should be good enough...
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travelin_light
Trad climber
california
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2008 - 05:01pm PT
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Thanks guys.
Looks like the Red Heads (wedge design) will do. I guess they are going to be hard to replace (re-drilling likely) down the road so I should go with SS.
Then there is always the Rawl 5-Piece. Looks like plated is OK because these are much easier to replace when necessary.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 13, 2008 - 05:17pm PT
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Rawl 5 piece is a bitch to replace in my experience. raw. powerstuds in stainless steel. I got a box of 50 3/8 X 2 3/4" for .90 cents apiece.
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ec
climber
ca
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Aug 13, 2008 - 06:18pm PT
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"alpine setting" 1/4ers, 5/16's or no bolts at all (better).
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travelin_light
Trad climber
california
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2008 - 07:00pm PT
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^^^Would love to. I think this will pick up some traffic when its all said and done.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:40pm PT
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I have placed hundreds of ITW Ramset-Redhead "Trubolt" 3/8" SS wedge anchors in Baja. They are a quality bolt at a very reasonable price. That's my preferred bolt for a dry climate, granite, trad area.
Contrary to the above inferences, wedge anchors cannot be replaced. Exception (sort of): By overtorqueing to the extreme, they will often snap at the cone. Thus, if a long bolt was used originally, a shorter bolt might be placed in the same hole.
There is no good reason to use carbon steel, except for being a cheapskate. Trubolts are available in 304 SS and in the more corrosion resistant 316 SS. Save money in boxes of 50.
2-3/4" is a good length, unless you are using a rotohammer, then use 3-3/4".
Hilti is another quality brand, though more expensive. Their wedge anchor is the "Kwik Bolt".
Beware of cheaper brands made offshore and anything out of a hardware store bin.
Wedge anchors are only for hard rock, such as granite, dense basalt, and quartzite. (No wonder "onthedgewasscaredtodeath" using wedge anchors in sandstone!)
Be sure to use proper torque (Do Not Over-torque). Since you are not likely to have a torque wrench in an alpine setting, torqueing might be practiced on concrete and checked so that you will know what the proper torque feels like with a 6" end wrench. Check manufacturer's specs - around 20-22 lbs. ft. for 3/8" SS (carbon steel will accept higher torque values).
Always use the proper size bits. Drill slightly deeper than the bolt. Clean the hole thoroughly: blow, brush, blow, until clean.
To prevent theft of hangers: Install the hanger, flat washer and nut on the bolt. Weld a tiny bead on the tip/outer threads, just a small drop in a 1 second pull on the trigger. It's easy with a MIG (wire feed) and auto-darkening helmet.
"pcousar" above was confused about bolt types. Cost of a "Trubolt" wedge anchor, 3/8" SS, is between $1.25 and $1.80
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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If you don't have a welder, a properly wielded cold chisel will properly bugger the threads to prevent hanger theft. Heck, most folks hammer blows when setting wedge anchors are suficient to bugger the threads to prevent hanchor theft.
I still use 1/2" carbon steel 5 1/2" wedge anchors and 3/8" chain for rap anchors. Pretty bomber setup and reasonably priced.
I also picked up just shy of 3 boxes of 3/8" 3 1/2" stainless rawl bolts on e-bay for $90. So deals are out there if you keep your eyes pealed.
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MisterE
Social climber
My Inner Nut
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Aug 13, 2008 - 09:58pm PT
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FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!!
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 13, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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I've also had good luck with McMaster-Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com
part #s:
92405A200
92405A202
and so forth. All on the same catalog page.
It looks like SS is getting more expensive... but I'd agree with some of the above that it IS worth the money. Personally, I don't see a place for carbon-steel anchors except Joshua Tree or crags near Moab.
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Strider
Trad climber
one of god's mountain temples....
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Aug 13, 2008 - 11:57pm PT
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Wow, if you guys are paying $5 for SS 3/8" x 2.25" Stainless Steel Wedge bolts then you are freaking crazy!
Find a Powers Fasteners rep/store or email me and you can get 100 bolts for $1.11 each/$111 for a box. I have a Powers store down the street from my house, I went down and talked to the guy to work out a deal. He thought I was crazy (being a climber) but he was impressed and said that was the best he could do for only 100. So if I buy more I might be able to get a better deal. If I buy a box of 50 then I have to pay around $70 but still cheaper than $5!!!
Now if you want a 5-piece or something like that, then $3-5 bucks for SS is about normal. Wedge bolts are slightly weaker than a 5-piece but not much.
Happy bolting
-n
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Aug 14, 2008 - 12:00am PT
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I used red heads for the belay of Insomnia 20 years ago when I could flash the route that my friends later wanted to top rope.
Also added a bolt to the route that need a handstand, but it was later chopped.
Juan
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Aug 14, 2008 - 01:15am PT
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"few cents"
bruce not true anymore
"There is no good reason to use carbon steel"
Juan M, you are wrong.
"carbon steel will accept higher torque values"
consequently if you don't carry a torque wrench the probability of over torq goes down, thereby raising the safety margin using crabon steel.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 01:32am PT
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Mungeclimber,
You are so right. My assumption is that installer will have at least half of a brain. We should probably assume that the installer will ignore the manufacturer's specs and the numerous internet forum warnings regarding proper torque.
On a side note, I consider every Powers (Rawl) 3/8" "5-piece" to be suspect. Few were properly installed, and fewer still with a torque wrench. Compound that with erroneous specs (way to high) which went uncorrected for years by the manufacturer. Bolts sometimes broke upon installation with a torque wrench. I complained and argued with them. They never admitted to a mistake, but finally lowered the torque spec to the appropriate number.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 01:45am PT
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Bear in mind that stressed or tortured metal at the hanger loading point in not a great idea. The process of forming the threads, even on stainless, stresses the metal in a twist shear mode that may lead to performance problems under repetative loading. Thunderstud type collar bolts and other threaded studs like the Redhead need to be at least 1/2" in my opinion to mitigate these considerations.
Stainless steel bolts and hangers are the only lasting option so don't place mild steel anchors.
The Powers 3/8" is actually only a 5/16" bolt diameter and way too dainty to be at all lasting or foolproof at point of installation. I bought a box for on stance placement and don't use them otherwise. Too little strength margin IMO.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Aug 14, 2008 - 01:54am PT
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"that the installer will ignore the manufacturer's specs and the numerous internet forum warnings regarding proper torque."
you got it bro.
:)
user-proof, even tho it ain't.
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couchmaster
climber
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Aug 14, 2008 - 11:02am PT
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Use stainless. ONLY.
You guys should be posting where you can get them for a buck. Kevin? Links? The price has about doubled in the last year, so anyone sitting on old inventory may have it priced below their costs.
Links?
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 14, 2008 - 02:27pm PT
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How does $0.86 sound to you?
I purchase at Toolup.com in San Diego. You can order online at www.toolup.com
$0.86 for 3/8" x 2-3/4" in 304 SS (part # WW-3826)
http://www.toolup.com/find/displaysearch1.asp?description=trubolt&x=17&y=12
I am surprised after pulling out an old receipt and comparing prices. Eight years ago, the unit price on a WW-3836 (3-3/4")was $1.15. Currently the unit price is $0.96
I didn't see the Trubolt in 316 SS listed on their website, though I'm fairly sure you can order them.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 25, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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We should have all stocked up on stainless back then. Juan's discount link today, about a year later.
ITW RAMSET RED HEAD
WW-3826 Trubolt Stainless Steel Anchor 304 3/8 X 2-3/4" $1.79/ea
itw ramset red head
WW-3830 Trubolt Syle 304 Stainless Steel Anchor 3/8 X 3 $1.99/ea
itw ramset red head
WW-3850 Trubolt Type 304 Stainless Steel 3/8 X 5 $2.39/ea
itw ramset red head WW-1236
Trubolt Style 304 Stainless Steel Anchor 1/2 X 3-3/4 $2.99/ea
itw ramset red head WW 1254
Trubolt Style 304 Stainless Steel Anchor 1/2 X 5 1/2 $4.59/ea
itw ramset red head
WW-1270 Trubolt Style 304 Stainless Steal Anchor 1/2 X 7 $4.99/ea
1/2 x 6-1/4 SS Wedge anchor
Soft rock no cracks.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:39am PT
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Thunderstuds are the way to go. 304ss 3'8X2.25 $1.10 per bolt at CONFAST.COM.
Couch, that rock looks like an expansion bolt would be more appropriate, looks very similar to pinnacles rock. 3/8 X 3 or longer has always done the trick, SS for sure in the conglom. Powers 5 piece gets a bad rap for the cone falling off but before heading up from the ground add a little superglue to the tip, works great.
Enough about bolts, what about some deals on some hangers?
$3 buck a pop sucks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 26, 2009 - 02:49am PT
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Couchmaster nails it - Stainless Only. Plated ends up junk in pretty short order, especial 5pc Powers. Up here in the NW it's entirely pointless to use plated - they will all be complete junk in a decade if the bolts at Beacon bolts are any indication.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 26, 2009 - 03:48am PT
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healyje,
Agreed, stainless for sure. In the Pacific NW / wet cool climate, I'd recommend spending a little more for the more corrosion resistant 316 SS, commonly called "marine grade" stainless steel. 304 SS is a cost effective alternative for drier climates.
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| Messages 1 - 31 of total 31 in this topic |
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