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bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 7, 2008 - 01:53am PT
O.k., I'm gonna start this thread but I have a lot more to expose when I get better organized.

Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?

Amnesty Int'l

World Workers Party (prolly nazi's)

ANSWER (overt Marxists)

ACLU (American civil liberties? When did they support border patrol agents?)

La Raza (for those that don't speaka spanish..that means "the race", as in brown supremacy...who's the racist?)

AZTLAN ( these idiots clearly state they want to re-conquer the SW United States.)

MECHA...just google it

EDIT: CODE PINK should be on the list too.


I'd say I'm sorry for posting political crap...but I ain't. You people need to wake up.

MisterE

Social climber
My Inner Nut
Aug 7, 2008 - 01:55am PT
you are ignoring this user
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Aug 7, 2008 - 01:56am PT
you forgot to put "SuperTopo" on the list
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:02am PT
Eric, you can choose to ignore me if you like.

I'm trying to tell you, we're being invaded by people who sh#t and burn our flag, and want nothing more than us to disappear.

That means you too.

They want the U.S. dead!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:15am PT
It's not protesters that have dragged America into the hole. Hardly anybody has paid any attention to protesters in recent years and they have had little effect.

American policies, military, economic and otherwise have made us look bad in the eyes of the world. The world isn't seeing our protesters, they are seeing our actions.

Peace

karl
Mighty Hiker

Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:17am PT
There there, isn't all just awful and terrible? I mean, why can't everyone just agree with us? Nobody loves us, everyone hates us, why don't we eat some worms?

Well, we love America anyway. America right or wrong. (But America can never be wrong.) The flag absolves all sins. Liberte, egalite, fraternite. (Oops, sorry, wrong country.) America, the land of exceptionalism and the (usually unnecessary) superlative adjective.

It's all the fault of those commie terrorists who put the Bill of Rights in the constitution. You know, those white property-owning oligarchs. People like Madison, Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton and their co-conspirators. They couldn't possibly have known what they were talking about.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:18am PT
Karl, I knew it was just a matter of time before you showed up.

It wasn't a troll either, I just knew you'd show up. Always equivocating the sins of our past to current affairs.

What did Santayana say?
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:18am PT
you've started two stupid off topic threads today

quit it
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:26am PT
Anders, don't drag down our leaders into that. They created the best system of gov't ever. They didn't advocate communism. Nice try though.

Funny how you people try to re-write their intentions.

Nice try.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 02:32am PT
Hey SS, go pleasure yourself and quit trying to tell me what to do.

I had the day off today and have some time on my hands to point out the fact that Commies suck. MMkaay?
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:36am PT
you're not the boss of me
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:37am PT
no one's the boss of me
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:37am PT
OMG!!!! LOL!!!!
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:40am PT
denying it's a troll outrightly is a clear sign of trolling.

solid effort tho!


Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:53am PT
SS - you twit, you've started more stupid threads than just about anyone I can think of off the top of my head,
and your new "angry" persona hardly makes up for that fact.

Plus, your multipal (unanswered) posts minutes apart to the same thread are pretty lame.

Bottom line: Commies suck, and that's the truth.

No amount of America bashing (yawn) can change this simpile fact.
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:55am PT
i'm not angry you are

Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:55am PT
AND you backed down on a bet
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:01am PT
OMG! LOL!
Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:02am PT
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:05am PT
obviously you 3 are having some kind of slumber party / circle jerk tonight
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:07am PT
It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!

Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:09am PT
when are you giving me the six pack of green labels you promised? if you want, you can change my username to t*r instead. that cuts out all the logistics
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:12am PT
Only if to promise to miss-spell it again...
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:13am PT
how do u misspell t*r

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:16am PT
You miss-spelled Toulumne in your user name,, remember?
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:17am PT
" You miss-spelled Toulumne, remember? "

hahaha!!! now YOU misspelled tuolumne
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:21am PT
Blame it on Toluene*Brainblow...
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:27am PT
i know who it was. but my lips are sealed! forever.

sooo... trade beer for change username?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:32am PT
You have tthe 6 pack of Green Labels coming, for services rendered.

Just register a new account and be done with it (like everyone else).
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:34am PT
Invaded by protesters. This is just too funny...
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:38am PT
Note to self: Do knott post from the iPhone when drinking a wee bit more than prudent.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111
Standing Strong

Trad climber
sunlight on the surf
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:38am PT
"Just register a new account and be done with it (like everyone else)."

no too much of a hassle. i wanna own my own posting history.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:48am PT
Hmmm - you might want to rethink that...
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:58am PT
ummm aren't you guys OT on the OT? Let's just bash some pinko's here, not things that are pink. . .
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 7, 2008 - 04:40am PT
ugh. This thread.
dirtineye

Trad climber
the south
Aug 7, 2008 - 05:24am PT
This thread isn't even worth posting in.

Oops.


Yeah, a few fringe protesters really overwhelms the rape of the US constitution, lying repeatedly to the American people for years, and faking the justification for a war, and getting loads of AMERICAN SOLDIERS maimed and killed in the process, then refusing to take good care of em when they return.

Gosh blue, you sure have a good sense of balance there.

Like Karl the Kommie says, it's not protesters who've made America suck, it's the Bush/Cheney war criminals.

And you voted for em, SUCKER.
MisterE

Social climber
My Inner Nut
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:32am PT
I got a LOLographic image I am trying to load...
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:48am PT
Blue-Here's a little advice from one new dad to another. Focus on your child. Teach him love and compassion and quit spending so much time trying to fix the world 'cuz you can't. There's kooks on both sides of the aisle and always will be, that will never change. The best you can do is take care of yourself and provide a loving and nurturing environment for your family. That you have control over, everything else, you have none. You sound angry, bitter and paranoid...not qualities you want to pass on to your children. Enjoy being a new dad. Peace.
nature

climber
Santa Fe, NM
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:56am PT
I gotta point out that this is one of the finest thread highjacks I've seen in a long long time.

Well done folks! I love it.
the Fet

Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:39am PT
America was for communism before it was against it.
jstan

climber
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:48am PT
Not a hijack really. The archer just had the bow facing in the wrong direction.
nita

climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:52am PT
coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
You forgot to label the US military commies. Being a vet, I can say that the closest thing to true communism in this country is the military. Rolling you socks up to look like every other sock on the base. If it wasn't for the communal aspect of the military, it wouldn't work.


Dog sauce?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 7, 2008 - 12:25pm PT
Bluering's list of commie organizations isn't very well supported. Much easier to make the case that the US military are commies. Free Medical care, subisdized goods, uniforms, free this and that paid by taxpayers, suspended freedom of speech, the works!

What countries are still convincingly commie? China says they are commie but I though we decided that that was a failing economic model. How come they have trillions in the bank and we're in deep debt?

Peace

Karl
klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Aug 7, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
Ahh, the good ol' days, eh Blue?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Aug 7, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
Commie-bashing is out since the fall of the USSR. Now the new enemy is Terrorists. How could th OP have missed that one; it was Propoganda 101. Asleep at the wheel post-9/11, I think.... "Mr. Bluering, the answer's not on the ceiling....."
Buckwheat

Big Wall climber
No. Cal
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
bluerings list sounds like facist organizations, wanting to shove their ajenda down everybodies throat. you can add academia to the list. Thats college professors for all you in rio linda.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
Bluering, are you now or have you ever been a member of the Moron party?


America, love it or leave it.


If you are a fascist, bigot, neo-con nutjob, hater of democracy and freedom, opposed to the right to choose your political affiliation, burner of books, opponent of the US Constitution, against civil liberties, and a whole lot more unAmerican activities and beliefs, perhaps you should just leave it.




The US that is.





As for me, I am going to look under my bed every night before I go to sleep.


Pesky pinkos.







Paranoia strikes deep.



Ooops, I've been trolled by Uncle Joe's nephew.
coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:00pm PT
Is that why you moved to Ireland, Patrick?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
Coldstonesoup, good retort. How long did it take you to think that one up? (It looks like about four minutes. How disappointing, can’t you do better than that?)


As an American living abroad, I believe I have been a good 'ambassador’ for my country. That is the beauty of being from a great nation like the US, we can live abroad without fear of our government revoking our travel rights or denying us our born citizenship. But then some of you people would probably wish there was a gulag system in America, would you be one of those Coldstonesoup?



bahhhhhhhhh
coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
Patrick, don't we already have a gulag system here? We have more people locked up than any other country in the world. Personally, I think living abroad is wonderful, it gives you a unique perspective of our country that the majority of Americans will never have. And yes, it's wonderful to always have a country to come back to.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
CSS, yes it is wonderful to have the US to return to.

I knew when I posted my first post on this thread that I would have somebody fire back about the fact that I have lived abroad for a number of years. I like living abroad but I love America (family's been there since 1640, second man to sign Deco of Indy was an ancestor).

I have a nephew who is a redneck and during the fiasco over a blowjob for Clinton he blocked me off from his e-mails (I let him keep e-mailing me, stuff like Ted Nugent on guns and right-wing crap, I kept my avenue of communications open to him, I guess I just had a more open mind than he did).


Anyway, I get an e-mail one day from him saying something to the effect that I am only living abroad because I can't make it in America.


ROFLMAO.



EDIT
(BTW, my nephew and I are back on speaking terms, we made peace at my mom's funeral. For all I know, some people on this forum could be my nephew, like Blueing, Jody or even Russ. Nah, I didn't think so). ;-)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
Wasn't your waterboard repossessed? You should have kept up payments Locker.
dogtown

climber
Where I once was,I think?
Aug 7, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
You just listed the core of the Democratic Party. So there you have it. Vote for Obama so they can one true leader.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 7, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
You just listed the core of the Democratic Party.

Dogtown, am I correct in assuming that the 'list' you refer to is what I wrote?

If you are a fascist, bigot, neo-con nutjob, hater of democracy and freedom, opposed to the right to choose your political affiliation, burner of books, opponent of the US Constitution, against civil liberties, and a whole lot more unAmerican activities and beliefs, perhaps you should just leave it.

You are such a card. You make me bust my gut laughing (and gawd do I have a gut).

Thanks for the humor, I needed it at this time of night.





You are joking, aren't you? This is a troll, right?









And I thought Fattrad was delusional.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:14pm PT
Commie bashing bastards pontificating on the moralis opperendeye should be jailed and whipped.

Next they will be bashing fishermen and semi truck drivers, or those that buy their goods anywhere besides Walsmart. ...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
Commies, their minions, and their usefull idiots.













coldstonesoup

Mountain climber
outside the taco stand
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:39pm PT
Pin the Molotov on the cop car, beautiful!

Watch out though, that post may be perceived as a threat.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 7, 2008 - 09:45pm PT
Bluering,

1. Do you stand against everything that the ACLU stands for?

2. Do you think it is unamerican to support the Constitution?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2008 - 10:08pm PT
Granite,

1. about 80% of the cases they litigate...yes.

2. No

Here's you ACLU. Sounds really nice like People For The American Way, but their intentions are suspect.

http://www.dianedew.com/aclu.htm

Funny how they couch themselves in patriotic symbolism to mask their agenda.
MisterE

Social climber
My Inner Nut
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:21pm PT

Oooo! A coloring book! Yay! Where's my most-awesome 36-color crayon set with the built-in sharpener?

BTW, the link to this pictue is the following

http://www.zombietime.com/anarchist_bookfair_march_18_2006/IMG_5957.JPG

It's a book fair, now I'm really scared! :-O


"Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of.
Nihilist: Ve don't care. Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or ve f*#k you up.
Walter Sobchak: F*#k you. F*#k the three of you.
The Dude: Hey, cool it Walter.
Walter Sobchak: No, without a hostage, there is no ransom. That's what ransom is. Those are the f*#king rules.
Nihilist #2: His girlfriend gave up her toe!
Nihilist #3: She though we'd be getting million dollars!
Nihilist #2: Iss not fair!
Walter Sobchak: Fair! WHO'S THE F*#KING NIHILIST HERE! WHAT ARE YOU, A BUNCH OF F*#KING CRYBABIES? "

klinefelter

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Aug 7, 2008 - 10:37pm PT
There is a difference between communists and anarchists, BTW.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:45pm PT
"There is a difference between communists and anarchists, BTW. "

A pretty huge one. That doesn't really matter to people who use "communist" as an ad hominem attack though. If you aren't a capitalist or an Americanist then it's all the same to them.
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
Fannie's Crack, AZ
Aug 7, 2008 - 11:52pm PT
bluering = troll
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:03am PT
Bluering,

What is your definition of "communist"? Is it anyone you disagree with? Are libertarians communist also?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:28am PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:29am PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 8, 2008 - 12:34am PT
That's right! I'm a marxist!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
From the teaching of the Frankfurt School of the New Left...

To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Ughhh, it may be too late....
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
citation dude
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
you might have posted the link...

http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_882.shtml

that is proper ethics in citations of work...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
Wes, I don't like Glen Beck. He's kinda like an unleashed Hannity. And prolly just as (un)smart as him.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
6. The promotion of excessive drinking




hahahahahahahaha
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
The points listed also are eerily similar to those of the Venona Papers and the Communist Manifesto.
Gene

Social climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
I fear no Frankfurter!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgqbCq_sxmo
gumbyclimber

climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
Protesters are nearly always the left boot of imperialism.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
Protesters are nearly always the left boot of imperialism.

Unless a neo-Marxist gains power and the protesters hold tea-bags....


I'll re-post the list;

From the teaching of the Frankfurt School of the New Left...

To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Ughhh, it may be too late....


Here's the Marxist thought;

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
jstan

climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
Blue:
You are not helping yourself here.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
Explain, John.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
I'm kinda looking forward to the communist invasion.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
Progressivism is the new Communism:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-february-22-2010/rage-within-the-machine---progressivism

EDIT: Oops. I see someone beat me to it. (Worth watching twice though!)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
yeah, let's just dismiss it....

...or is that part of the game-plan. Racist? Too religious? Too culturalistic? Too nationalistic?

We should just accept and submit.



EDIT:

re: Glen Beck

Why do you assume I take any creedence in him?

I don't!

The vid is funny, but look at what's happened before you dismiss what I'm talking about. Look at what these fools are taught and then look at what's happend over the last 20-40 years.

Commies. Yeah, an alarmist word like 'Global Warming', but based in many more facts. A gov't of semi-radical to radical neo-Marxists. A silent change.

tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Feb 23, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
One thing I've came to realize lately, if I rely on politiceans to provide for my happiness, I'll be sorely disapointed. If I rely upon myself for my happiness, I only have myself to blame if I fail to deliver.

So long as they stay out of my way, and leave me a couple rubels, I really don't give much credence to what the politiceans say and do.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

http://www.ifs.uni-frankfurt.de/english/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/subject/frankfurt-school/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
Ed, what are your personal thoughts on cultural-Marxism and a slow roll into neo-Marxism or maybe into Fascism?

Is it happening as their doctrine prescribes, a natural cultural evolution or "progression'?

Why is Wes a commie?
Duke

Social climber
PSP
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLi_m656tQQ
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
why are you worried about communists?

and especially given that almost nothing secret is possible these days... it seems you have constructed a boogieman which does not really exist.

Also, you have confused communism and fascism, really quiet different things...

communism is an economic philosophy (ideology?): "1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed"

fascism: "1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

you might be worried about totalitarianism: "1 : centralized control by an autocratic authority" which has happened in both communist and fascist governments...

I don't know what Wes is, aside from a poster here on the SuperTopo, who boulders hard... his economic/political philosophy is revealed only in bits and pieces in his posts and these do not constitute a complete exposition of his thoughts.

Also, I think the stuff you've posted on the "Frankfurt School" probably is not attributable to them directly, it seems to be a worry on the web site I linked to above: http://catholicinsight.com/online/features/article_882.shtml a web site concerned with challenges to religious authority.

The article from which your quote is excerpted has a number of rather fantastic claims against the "Frankfurt School." It is a rather paranoid fantasy that less than 20 people have taken over all of western civilization, and starting in 1923?

I find it not really worth seriously debating...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
I don't know what Wes is, aside from a poster here on the SuperTopo, who boulders hard... his economic/political philosophy is revealed only in bits and pieces in his posts and these do not constitute a complete exposition of his thoughts.

What are you a f*#king scientist???? (I know you are)

You are a judicious and diplomatic man, I'll give you that. And good on ya for that!

Sometimes I wonder how you resist my annoyance, and then I appreciate the Hartouni-effect. Just the facts, maam....
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
Ed- what's the proper word for being ruled by corporations?

I'm way more scared of the rich than I am of some whiny hippies. People stopped listening to those guys some time in the late 80's I believe was the last gasp.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
Economic-totalitarianism?

I'll just be a commie....a hippy commie.
Or some such.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
oligarchy.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZS2GthG1hQ

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 23, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
what's the proper word for being ruled by corporations?
Kleptocracy, maybe?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
you sillies...

capitalism: ": an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market"
Gene

Social climber
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
Didn't SCOTUS recently weigh in on this?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
Look at what these fools are taught and then look at what's happend over the last 20-40 years.

For some reason, the only thing I can look at in this thread are those gals with miniskirts and machine guns.

Is that China?

Ed,

Another perspective on the difference between capitalism and other economic structures is the allocation of risk and rewards. Capitalism encourages individual risk by allowing for individual reward. Socialism tries to mitigate risk by spreading it across the population.

Gary: your comic doesn't mention risk, but how risk is managed is key concept in any economic system. The rich guy gets the money because he takes the risks (of course he has more to risk in the first place...)

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
The capitalists are a parasitic minority class that feeds off the hard work of others. What do they risk? What did Goldman Sachs risk, pray tell?
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
What did Goldman Sachs risk, pray tell?

Sachs didn't risk anything. Why? The government took our tax dollars to save them. That's not the fault of a "free" market, just the opposite.

What about the owner of a small store? Isn't that a capitalist? Every day, millions of people have everything at risk. Do you hate them too?


I am really getting sick of everyone hating on the Marxists. Rent the movie "Duck Soup" and tell me the Marxists aren't great. You bet your life!
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
What did Goldman Sachs risk, pray tell?


I'm just providing some academic background. Not trying to prove you right or wrong.

It turns out that Goldman Sachs didn't really risk much, so this is really not an example of capitalism. And that's why I think that situation is as messed up as you apparently do.

You've probably heard the expression "privatized gains, socialized losses." The GS situation was some weird hybrid of the worst of capitalism and socialism.

The solution is regulation of derivatives and investment banking relationships, as well as eliminating "too big to fail" institutions. Capitalism requires free markets, but it's well known that completely unfettered markets lead to disaster.

Buy some stock, start a business, or loan money to someone else who is. Then you are an old-fashioned capitalist. Take a risk, put your money "to work" and hope for a reward.

The stuff that is going on today doesn't have a name -- it's economics gone amok.




Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
First fatal flaw - I'm gonna get back to you when I'm more organized... When will this happen?

"Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?" - (Where are the organized protests that are against anything American taking place? If they are happenign in your living room, please provide video, you may be able to make some money off that.)

"Amnesty Int'l (side note - (Reputable organization that has brought about much good, and your right were not taken away in the process)

World Workers Party (prolly nazi's) - (you're prolly an idiot if you don't know WTF an organization is before you call them "prolly Nazi's"..)

ANSWER (overt Marxists) (show me how you came to this conclusion)

ACLU (American civil liberties? When did they support border patrol agents?) - (Have any border control agents banded together to join a union, or are they just ok with their government salaries, across the board........ Get a clue.. blue)

La Raza (for those that don't speaka spanish..that means "the race", as in brown supremacy...who's the racist?) - (Bluetring is the racist. You should have just left this one with La Raza, and let the rest of us lok it up ourselves, and come to our own conclusions on their merits... But your a reactionary, so.. I understand the limitations you may feel)

AZTLAN ( these idiots clearly state they want to re-conquer the SW United States.) - (what else do they say? I know you to pick and choose you inflammations, seem to focus mainly on hemorrhoid regions, but.. I digress)

MECHA...just google it (thanks, but no thanks... if you have, I'm pretty sure their policies are not in line with your corporate rule/repuglilkunt way of thinking)

EDIT: CODE PINK should be on the list too." - Not sure what this is all about, couldn't get past a jackass voicing his disapproval of anything that relates to helping people instead of corporations....



Wow.. I just got done reading into the mind of bluerig.. and it still ain't pertty....



wholey-shite... this was a total waste of time...
thanks bluerangue.. I'm going back to my life.. Hope to revisit once your more organized.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
Rent the movie "Duck Soup" and tell me the Marxists aren't great. You bet your life!


LOL!
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
I do not think Bluering might not like those chicks in red skirts but I sure he is into this stuff. Gud Merkin Fun!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9RYBcWljiA

PS. Does your your name have anything to do with a Germ Burn?
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
Here is good definition of what you should be afraid of, the right wing Republican Fascist agenda, so well said by Vice Pres Wallace


" If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."

And Democrats in Congress don't do the same thing?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
what exactly did Goldman Sachs do?

wasn't it an investment house, who basically took peoples money, lent to and collected interest on it... while charging a fee for the service, both a flat fee and a percentage.... but the original capital was not Goldman Sach's but their customers'


Now having leveraged the investments, that is, taken on the promise of return far in excess of the available funds, once the investment commitments came due they didn't have enough capital to cover.

That means they risked all of their customers' capital, and a lot of their own. Not only does the company Goldman Sachs suffer, but all of their customers too. What should the position of the government be? Let it all collapse?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
I actually think bluering was trolling...
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
The dictionary definition of fascism is as follows:

"A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Funny my Webster's dictionary says the same thing, minus the "extreme right"

If the government has control of the means of production (through ownership or through regulation) it is Socialism. I will let you argue which wing the bird uses to fly.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
That means they risked all of their customers' capital, and a lot of their own. Not only does the company Goldman Sachs suffer, but all of their customers too. What should the position of the government be? Let it all collapse?

The government let the company I worked for collapse. Over 1600 people out of work. Maybe a small percentage compared to GS but sometimes the small tragedies are just as bad.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
but what should the gov't do? that's a question... not a rhetorical one...
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
Dr F - If the Dems do the same thing as the Repubs, isn't that the same thing no matter what label you decide to put on it. If it quacks like a duck...say the magic word.

Calling me a dope may appease your ego but it doesn't further your cause.

Ed - let them go. Their assets will be bought, some positions absorbed by someone else, people out of work. Investments carry risk. One risk is that you can lose everything.

If the Feds are going to help GS, then they should help everyone. Size shouldn't matter.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
What about the owner of a small store? Isn't that a capitalist?

No.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
What about the owner of a small store? Isn't that a capitalist?

No.

What are they?

What's your definition of a capitalist?
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:40pm PT

Ah yes, bluetard, the amerikan patriot (KNOTT), who loves his country
but won't fight for it.

Why don't you just join juan in his cave.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
What should the position of the government be? Let it all collapse?


Yep! Why not? How much did we spend to prevent "the collapse". We (He) caused it. And did we fix anything?

EDIT:

Ah yes, bluetard, the amerikan patriot (KNOTT), who loves his country
but won't fight for it.

So If I enlist in some service my points have more validity or credibility? Are you serious with that?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
Here's your hero dr-f

guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 23, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
Enough Bluering!

I'm calling in the man-call it what you like, just answer your friggin doorbell.
Might be a good idea to have a stash of dog biscuits handy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 23, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
guido, if that dude's a commie he'll prolly go down fast and hard. If he's conservative he'll prolly just kill ya by squarshing ya'....

guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:04am PT
Better get a quick lesson in Maori Bluering. Our friend, as well as many others, just doesn't understand your lingo.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:06am PT
fair enough, Guido...Have fun wherever you are!

here's this list again...

I'll re-post the list;

From the teaching of the Frankfurt School of the New Left...

To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Ughhh, it may be too late....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:10am PT
So bluering, just because some krackpot krauts in their academic dreamworld are coming up with this drivel, that means that anyone's paying attention?

Anyway, I thought my kleptocracy joke was funny, even if none of you did. I thought it might lead to a discussion about all governments being kleptocratic, and the importance of checks and balances.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:12am PT
I have no problem with # 7
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:14am PT
MH, I'm glad you refer to them as crackpots. It's their disciples that are troubling. The ones carrying the philosophy onward.

EDIT:

I have no problem with # 7


Excellent, then you can slowly accept the rest. Welcome aboard!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:21am PT
Crackpots - like their fellow travellers on the right. Fanatic ideologues, largely disconnected with the real world. The right-wingers just have a better PR machine. I guess when you own the press, that follows.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:29am PT
I'd like to see someone (like Karl probably) justify each of the points laid out, in a reasonable fashion. Sure, you can disagree with one or two, but the whole agenda?

It's crazy, man....
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
appeals to strawmen arguments (i.e. dead guys that wrote what they wrote) does not mean that either post modern or post structuralist or conservative or neo conservative thought is correct.

In fact, both are rhetorically impotent except to the literary blind who appeal to them to drive their agenda.

Appealling to facts, or studies, or current analyses, well that's a much harder thing to do if it really means so much to one.

Personally this kind or most any kind of broad over generalizing should be done good and drunk, and have nothing to do with real life circumstances where people have to survive in a nation state.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:32am PT
Hmm, looking at bluering's talking points list, there's all too many climbers who could be said to have committed #2, #4, #6, #7 and perhaps #11. No wonder this place is infested with communist-anarcho-liberal-syndicalist-fascist-conservative-corporatist pigs.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 12:35am PT
Munge, I agree somewhat. And yes, I am under ze influence. But somtimes a commie IS a commie and not some silly red herring....


MH, I just call 'em pinko's.....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:39am PT
from Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Scene 3

[clop clop]
ARTHUR: Old woman!
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Old Man, sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I'm thirty seven -- I'm not old!
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you `Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say `Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called `Dennis.'
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say sorry about the `old woman,' but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I AM king...
DENNIS: Oh king, eh, very nice. An' how'd you get that, eh? By exploitin' the workers -- by 'angin' on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic an' social differences in our society! If there's ever going to be any progress--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh -- how d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady. I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. we're all Britons and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship. A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give away. Did you here that, did you here that, eh? That's what I'm on about -- did you see him repressing me, you saw it didn't you?

(Courtesy of Ed H, who helpfully posted it a while ago. Of as the Lollards so cheerfully put it during the Peasant's Revolt of 1381, "When Adam delved, and Eve span, who was then, the gentleman?")
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:51am PT
I haven't read even half the posts on this thread, let alone half the most recent ones but I noticed the title and the OP's author so I just had to drop in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

That doesn't actually sound so bad. What's funnier is that's exactly where we're heading right this very second!

The problem with Communism is not the philosophy of it, rather the people who run it. The same goes for Capitalism. The system is good, the people that run it are bad.

Greed, arrogance, greed, envy, greed and power all lead to corruption and perversion of systems designed to create welfare for humanity.

To me that seems like a fundamental truth. Very simple. I don't know how you all feel about that, though.

mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:57am PT
"Excellent, then you can slowly accept the rest. Welcome aboard! "

Thanks for telling me what I can do, rather than what I may do, Bluering, time to put down the bottle and go to bed. Ok big fella'. If you ever grow up and have a family I am sure you will be embarrassed by posts here. Spare your children and stop now.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:08am PT
but what should the gov't do? that's a question... not a rhetorical one...


Ed,

The govt. did need to intervene and prop up the system. It sucks, but it had to be done. I don't know the whole story, but I have some experience with financial markets. I'm sure that if the govt. didn't do what it did, everybody would be hurting bad right now, especially the poor.

What they should have done also, is allowed individuals to fail. Many CEOs and traders should have been financially ruined at the least. And many people should be in jail or on their way there. By now, the news should be reporting an indictment on almost a daily basis. From wall street kingpins to local mortgage brokers, thousands of people should have gone to jail for the excesses of the past years.

But almost none of this happened. They're still getting their paychecks (bigger than ever!) and only a few extreme cases have been prosecuted (e.g. Stanford). The message the govt. is sending now, is this: "go ahead and try to get uber-rich again, you've got nothing to lose..."

And we also need the regulation I mentioned previously.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:12am PT
The problem with Communism is not the philosophy of it, rather the people who run it.

The real problem is that every bunch of murderous thugs to come along think THEY are the right people to run it.


Plato knew his utopia run by philosopher kings was a fantasy.

There have been legion since then without the wisdom to realize that.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:22am PT
this thread is a troll,
or bluering showed
up to another gun
fight armed only
with a wiffle ball bat.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:26am PT
Wisdom & temperance are hard to come by, in humans.
There are ALWAYS predators about.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:32am PT
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:37am PT
Fear not Bluering acute paranoia is often treatable- good luck!
Reilly

Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:44am PT
Having spent years learning to annihilate commies I then
turned to just studying them and you know what? Given the
opportunity with very few exceptions they most willingly
come over to the dark side. The allure of more than three
hots and a cot is too much; most people are upwardly mobile
at heart.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:51am PT
Dr. F. - and blue is for all of this!!!


or at least he patrioticly stands behind those "partriots" that have taken these steps....

I realized after I went on my rant that this was blues thinking from '08.. but you know what....?


I don't think any of it has changed.....


it a shame
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 11:30am PT
Blue, you were born in the wrong age.

You would have had more folks agree with you back in the early 1950s.

Plus there would have been more opportunities for FAs.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
Good lord, folks are seriously worried Commies?

Shows how nutty the modern day John Birchers/Tea Party folks really are.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
jstan

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
"The real problem is that every bunch of murderous thugs to come along think THEY are the right people to run it."

I don't know about the murderous part. But this is very apt characterization of our republican party.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 24, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Why should everyone in the neighborhood own a lawnmower and a snowblower? Why not 1 in 10? At $1,000 a pop, you could put $9,000 for every 10 people into something nice for the COMMUNIty as a whole. Edcuation, a COMMUNIty garden, whatever.

I don't think it's illegal for a community to do that. The problem comes when the government tells me I have to contribute. Maybe I like shovelling snow, or I like the $5000 snowblower better.

I actually think community gardens in urban areas are a fantastic idea. Kids need to know food doesn't originate in the warehouse of Safeway.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
"Blue, you were born in the wrong age.

You would have had more folks agree with you back in the early 1950s."--dktem




How true this is, not necessarily for Blue, but for the preachers and believers of pre-modern day Conservatism. The non-solvable problem for them is that their very "movement" (oxy-moron) is a Catch-22 in itself--"We need to do what was done in the past in order to go ahead"


Look at one example, Mr. Limbaugh--his education (lack of it), upbringing, politics, et al represent the out-dated consciousness that is holding back progress in this country merely by being of a demographic set that can still bring numbers at the voting booths.




,,,at least that's the way I see it.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
TGT, right. The system is valid, but the people who are elected to implement it get power hungry and become corrupt.

WESCHRIST - You're right! Communism is not evil, it's just propagandized and of course those in power in Communist countries are pretty evil (see: China, Russia, etc)

Actually, America is a Socialist/Capitalist country.

Medicare and SOCIAL Security are socialist ideas. Bank bailouts are definitely socialist ideas. They've capitalized profits and socialized losses. Government intervention in financial markets is a bit of communism when they maintain a floor in the stock market to prevent it from crashing.

And as I draw my post to a close, I'd like to leave you all with this thought from our government:

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
"We need to do what was done in the past in order to go ahead"

Which country has ushered in the most progress in it's relatively short history?

North Korea? China? Cuba? Vietnam? Venezuela?

Communism is great on paper or the college classroom, the problem is it never works and ends up sucking real bad for the people

Unless you're talking about a bunch of hippies growing veggies and having 'free-love', then yeah, that can work sometimes but never on any large scale. If you wanna do that, fine, good luck to ya!
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
bluering, you're neglecting the fact that capitalism doesn't work, either.
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”
Winston Churchill
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
Gary, not perfectly, but it seems to be the best thing going.
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
“In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.”
Fran Lebowitz
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
“I believe totally in a Capitalist System, I only wish that someone would try it.”
Frank Lloyd Wright
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
“This American system of ours, call it Americanism, call it capitalism, call it what you will, gives each and every one of us a great opportunity if we only seize it with both hands and make the most of it”
Al Capone
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
“Capitalism is Man Exploiting Man; Communism is just the opposite”
Eastern European proverb
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Ed, what the government should have done is bail them out. Then it should rewrite the laws to limit the size of the company so that in the future, when a company fails, it wont take the whole country with it.

No such thing is pure capitalism.
No such thing as pure socialism.

Neither system will work as men are in control and they aren't pure.

So we have a blend.

apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
“Communism is like Prohibition, it's a good idea but it won't work”
Will Rogers
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
bluering, you're neglecting the fact that capitalism doesn't work, either.


You do realize the irony of posting this on the internet, from what I am sure is comfortable accommodations, within an hour or so of when we are all going to enjoy our lunch, from which we have an overwhelming number of choices on what to eat?

All while we contemplate our recreational activities, which we can pursue in our ample free time, even if we have to use our personal vehicles to cover great distances...

It's worked pretty damn well for all of us at the taco.
apogee

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
“The trouble with Communism is the Communists, just as the trouble with Christianity is the Christians”
Henry Louis Mencken
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
The trouble with so called opposition to communism\socialism is that everyone on here supports some form of it. We all have our sacred cows that must be supported by tax money. It's "other people's" socialist priorities and not our own that outrage us. How about just NO TAXES at all? I could have retired by now if that were the case.
gonzo chemist

climber
a crucible
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
"...organized protests against anything American..."


Blue,

you really like hyperbole, dontcha?

And its probably worth noting that the use of the term 'communist' to describe any nation is an incorrect use of the word. I'm not sure that we've seen any nation actually achieve communism. Most countries that ventured down the path to communism ended up as dictatorships. That's sort of an important distinction to make; because as we all know, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."


And just as you all love to get on a soapbox and defend your right to possess guns, I'll always defend peoples' right to peaceably assemble.
jstan

climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
In a real sense both systems failed for the same reason. A few people wanted the power to make choices for everyone.

In 1905 the Mensheviks took part in an unsuccessful uprising against the still existing feudal order. Following WWI another group, the Bolsheviks led by Lenin overthrew the Tsar and in addition brutally suppressed the Mensheviks. The so-called Communist revolution came into being when a small group suppressed everyone else. That was the context.

In the US it is becoming increasingly clear we have a party whose only priority is that they must have power. Tolkien's line, "Sauron shares power with NO ONE" once again appears to be operational.

The failures are not based on economic model at all, much as people love to argue the point.

The operational word here

is

despotism.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
And its probably worth noting that the use of the term 'communist' to describe any nation is an incorrect use of the word. I'm not sure that we've seen any nation actually achieve communism. Most countries that ventured down the path to communism ended up as dictatorships. That's sort of an important distinction to make; because as we all know, "absolute power corrupts absolutely."


And just as you all love to get on a soapbox and defend your right to possess guns, I'll always defend peoples' right to peaceably assemble.

I agree. Communism can come in many forms, degrees.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 24, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
Blue - what do you call medicare and social security? What do you call taxing people's income and giving it to banks? What do you call paying interest on federal deficits by using social security and medicare funds?

What do you call camping out in Joshua Tree and sharing food and beer with all your fellow campers?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
What do you call taxing people's income and giving it to banks? What do you call paying interest on federal deficits by using social security and medicare funds?

A broken system that needs fixing.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Feb 24, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
bunch of clap trap

what are the conditions of satisfaction that we can say one system is in fact 'socialism' in the perjoratively defined way, and likewise for 'capitalism' otherwise this is just flapping gums and needs to be stopped on or shunted to the Dr F thread that has so neatly kept things contained in 20000 posts or less.


false dichotomies on either side.

actually economists will tell you that blended economies are the ones that provide for what pro-american approaches think is success for society.

neither strictly command based, nor stricly laissez faire.

i gotta stop reading these threads.

Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 24, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
bump for Marxists


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZOlrZNIod0&feature=related
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
Communists are great...








































































...served with fava beans and a nice chianti.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
It is likely that true communists in the USA are as rare as wolves in Idaho, or grizzly bears in California. A fantasy bogeyman.
Gene

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
Communists are so 20th Century.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
What's wrong with communism?

It's just never existed in it's true form.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Right you are MH but there are some wolves in ID. but no Grizzlies in Cali.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
Do they taste good deep fried or are they just bad eats?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
It's [capitalism] worked pretty damn well for all of us at the taco.

The majority of the world is capitalist and yet the majority of the world barely manages to not starve. How's that working out?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
Actually Wes, these asshats came up in conversation and got me all riled up.

The Baader-Meinhof gang...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-528611/Clowns-terror-The-Baader-Meinhof-gang-hopelessly-incompetent-befuddled-drugs-casual-sex.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
It is likely that true communists in the USA are as rare as wolves in Idaho, or grizzly bears in California.


Except on college and university campuses.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
Check out the home page of Blue's link--now there's some cutting-edge, honest jounalism (sarc)


Sounds like the article is trying to scare people...






































































...well, just Bluey ;-)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
Mojede, they call them "incompetent" in the link, as they were. The point is that they were indoctrinated with commie propaganda. Kinda like our own SDS terrorists.

And I'm not afraid of commies, I just don't like their philosophies and what they're trying to do.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
Being overly concerned with deviant out-layers on the normal curve of life/people tends to disrupt the norm and leads to chaos/anarchy--you wouldn't want any of the latter, would you now sir?


If no dissent can take place in this country, then it's pretty much over...
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
I thought the current wingnut argument was like this:

Reforming health care is socialism, because some countries that have more socialist practices than us have socialized medicine.

Following on this impeccable line of reasoning, I've noticed that communist countries frequently have a strong military. Is having a strong military a sign of communism? It's funded by tax payer dollars too after all.

No correlation is too specious for the wingnut media pundits that love to sell their swill!
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Here we just have Anti-socialism.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
There really aren't that many, man.
I've seen 1, in 8 years.

Seen lotsa wingnuts, though. LOTS!
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
I've never personally met an avowed communist (and yes, I attended college).

But you know, there's a terrorist (or communist) behind every Bush.

You must believe it.

Or else you are against the holders of the true moral flame of America.

I'm a Marksman\Lennonist (John) myself.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
this thread is even stupider than the average political thread here at st.

american catholic women's review says that jurgen habermas is a communist.

hahahahahahahahaha!

why don't you just cut-and-paste the protocols of the elders of zion while you're at it.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
For many years, Vancouver had a real live communist on its city council. A man named Harry Rankin. He was a decorated veteran and a lawyer, and his practice focused on representing the underdogs of society - often to the embarrassment of the establishment. He was on council for 20 years, and apart from occasional attacks of potty-mouth, was acknowledged as having been an excellent councilor. Council was and is dominated by business interests, but even they recognized the need for a honest, loyal opposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Rankin
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Feb 24, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Blah blah blah. Can anyone tell me what I want to know about them?

Again I ask: Do they taste good deep fried or are they just bad eats?

I hear there are a lot of them out here in Kalifornia-stan especially in The Peoples Republic of Berkeley. What do I do with them? Do I cook them, hang out with them, drink with them, put them to work, put them in jail, send them to Oaksterdamn University? What's a kev to do - I'm so confused.

Minerals got any advice?

kev
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
Communists are nothin'

What's genuinely subversive is a man who has been known keep his own mind *gasp*. Like the guy who goes to your church who voted for Obama and abortion rights.

Nothing worse than someone who won't conform to agreement about our commonly (or should I say corporately) agreed enemies and sense of what Patriotism entails.

Communists -pshaw. Those are straw men. A cheap substitute for the Inquisitorial powers lost.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
The majority of the world is capitalist and yet the majority of the world barely manages to not starve. How's that working out?


The "majority" of the world that you are referring to has no economic system at all.

And now for the obvious retort: How are the communist countries doing these days?

China seems to be doing well lately, is that because they are more or less communist than they have been?

History buried this debate about 20 years ago.


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
Again the agenda;

To further the advance of their ‘quiet’ cultural revolution - but giving us no ideas about their plans for the future - the School recommended (among other things):

1. The creation of racism offences.
2. Continual change to create confusion
3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children
4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority
5. Huge immigration to destroy identity.
6. The promotion of excessive drinking
7. Emptying of churches
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime
9. Dependency on the state or state benefits
10. Control and dumbing down of media
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family

One of the main ideas of the Frankfurt School was to exploit Freud’s idea of ‘pansexualism’ - the search for pleasure, the exploitation of the differences between the sexes, the overthrowing of traditional relationships between men and women. To further their aims they would:

• attack the authority of the father, deny the specific roles of father and mother, and wrest away from families their rights as primary educators of their children.
• abolish differences in the education of boys and girls
• abolish all forms of male dominance - hence the presence of women in the armed forces
• declare women to be an ‘oppressed class’ and men as ‘oppressors’
Munzenberg summed up the Frankfurt School’s long-term operation thus: ‘We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks.'

The School believed there were two types of revolution: (a) political and (b) cultural. Cultural revolution demolishes from within. ‘Modern forms of subjection are marked by mildness’. They saw it as a long-term project and kept their sights clearly focused on the family, education, media, sex and popular culture.

Many people don't realize they'll in lock-step with Marxists, driving toward the same goal. These 'useful idiots' are used to achieve that goal. They also realize 'communist' or 'Marxist' doesn't fly very well, especially in American politics, so they use other terms. Like 'progressive' or 'green'.

Maybe you're aware Van Jones (former Obama appointee) thought of the green movement as a way to break capitalism and deliver rights back to the people.

They're around, just don't openly call themselves commies anymore.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
The "majority" of the world that you are referring to has no economic system at all.

Not true. Through imperialism, the European and American capitalist have touched every nation in the world. And if you think China is communist, you need to do more reading.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
Where is this Frankfurt school and how do I get my kids into it? *wink*


1. The creation of racism offences. Yes.
2. Continual change to create confusion. -Sounds good if the confusion is directed. Anyway, life was confusing even though my school wasn't Marxist.

3. The teaching of sex and homosexuality to children. Fine by me. I got my education from the next door neighbor's magazines.

4. The undermining of schools’ and teachers’ authority. -I thought this was a right wing mantra.

5. Huge immigration to destroy identity. -You mean like what we did to the Native Americans? Oh wait, you mean WHITE identity. Got it.

6. The promotion of excessive drinking. -So now it's a crime to be Irish?
7. Emptying of churches -Wouldn't bother me.
8. An unreliable legal system with bias against victims of crime. -Somehow I think this just means we need evidence to convict.

9. Dependency on the state or state benefits -You mean like Health Care?
10. Control and dumbing down of media -Like Faux News?
11. Encouraging the breakdown of the family -You mean any family that isn't nuclear, right?


Let me get this straight, you are trying to pin these ideas as identifiers on a specific group of people in this country, you claim are "hiding out" among people who are "progressive" or "green" as a means of equating them with the atrocities perpetuated under some "communist" governments. This is some of the weirdest paranoia I've read in a while. Please continue to post these amazing disclosures of the traitors among us. I hate to break it to you man, but no such cohort exists in any organized fashion. You'd have trouble finding anyone who agreed to all those things and most people would like a few and reject a few. What's a man in search of the GENUINE PUBLIC ENEMY to do?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
bluering inhabits a rather Manichaean world. Everything in black and white, no ambiguities or nuances.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
Here ya go, Binks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_school
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
I don't think China is (purely) communist. The fact that they're not explains why they are doing so well lately.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
All the groups you name, bluering, have one thing in common: they are essentially politically and economically powerless.

Each generation since the time of the Romantic, French and American revolutions have been rebelling against white male pateral figures. Check out D.H. Lawrence, Ibsen, Pound and James Joyce. And, incidentally, each one of those literary figures, except for Ibsen, were extreme right wingers.

The Bolsheviks no longer exist; they went out of business c. 1989-90. You shouldn't confuse domestic enemies of the Right with an organized Marxist-Leninist political party in a foreign state. Hitler killed his domestic racial and political enemies as if that was a means of fighting the Red Army on the Eastern Front.

It does seem as though the Right has been unhappy ever since the Communists called it quits. Now, they don't have any enemies, foreign or domestic, to attack.
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
It's all Fear of a Black Planet stuff. Thank you Public Enemy.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
If, according to bluering, the International Workers of the World are "prolly nazi's [sic]", how in the world are they also communists? The National Socialists and the Bolsheviks despised each other; fought heated street battles in the streets of German cities, which were only a prelude to the big battles on the Eastern Front in WWII.

Doesn't make sense! Sounds like you're confusing US domestic culture wars with real geo-political global right-left conflicts. But of course since the end of the Cold War that global stuff is basically Kaput. No money in it anymore.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
Sorry, Bruce, you are correct. The WWP is Marxist/Leninist, not NAZI-esque.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6603

My mistake.



EDIT:

he is heavily influenced by Glen Beck, the only member of the media to put any real time into the smear campaign against Jones.

Uh, no I'm not. And you're wrong about media coverage of Jones.
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
OK, I gotta confess, I'm aware of the hidden communists bluey writes about. Thanks to the genius of right wing punditry and allied religious dogmatists their secret agenda to infiltrate the progressives and greens has now been blown. Outed. Damn. Thank god we finally know who the bad guys are, even if they don't know who they are themselves. It's been so disorienting since the collapse of the USSR that I had long considered suicide. Without an enemy, I'm nothing.

But the glorious white patriots of the right still don't know about the new secret agenda of these secret communists...to infiltrate the GOP itself! Cloaked in the very language of patriotism of many who are considered holy by the right might there in fact, hide a completely unrelated agenda? The seeds of doubt have been sown... Patriots, denounce the enemies in your midst!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
I've been missing the CCCP logos at the Olympics. The games used to have that cool geo-political edge to them.

I can't determine what this thread is about.

Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
It's not about anything. Some people think it's about something, but when you cut the crap there is nothing there. Communists, Patriots, Capitalists, Nazis, Wolves and Grizzly Bears then the whole thing goes up in smoke.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
Poor lad, but they keep coming up with better treatment.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
Here Wes, from Congressional record and excerpted from "The Naked Communist";



Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963

Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 .

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.


http://upssa.com/1963-congress.htm

Look familiar?
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
"Red China". Gotta love that 1963 style. Blue, as your Dr. I'm prescribing Oxycontin and the viewing of Dr. Strangelove on endless loop for the next three days. Please try this and come see me in a week if problems persist.


Just who we all know who the esteemed "Cleon" is:

Willard (W.) Cleon Skousen (January 20, 1913 – January 9, 2006) was a Mormon American conservative author and political commentator. A prominent figure in some strains of American conservatism (associated with the John Birch Society), Skousen authored books on politics and Mormonism. In 2008, political commentator and media personality Glenn Beck began recommending Skousen's works, sparking new interest in his ideas and publications.

-Wikipedia

I wonder if he knows what the Urim and Thummim are? Ya think?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
Look familiar?

Ever read The Blue Book?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
I love how you guys blow this off paranoid delusion. Off course, that's part of the agenda, right?

When commies tell you how they're going to destroy your society, culture, and country and it's actively pursued till this day, and you want to ignore it, I can only conclude you've been brainwashed (prolly in college) or are a proud communist.

And that's fine, just don't deny it or try to tell me I'm paranoid.


EDIT:

So Binks, do you deny that is the communist agenda?

The communist manifesto lays it out, dude.
http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation_process/hdn003.htm
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."






Who is doing this to the US? I didn't have time to read it all.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
That's all right, bluering. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live—did live, from habit that became instinct—in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized."
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
I love how you guys blow this off paranoid delusion. Off course, that's part of the agenda, right?

When RIGHT WING FANATICS tell you how they're going to destroy your society, culture, and country and it's actively pursued till this day, and you want to ignore it, I can only conclude you've been brainwashed (prolly in college) or are a proud RIGHT WING FANATIC.

And that's fine, just don't deny it or try to tell me I'm paranoid.


EDIT:
the difference between BLUEY and the people of the USSR was that the people of the USSR KNEW they were being bombed with propaganda, and hence they didnt believe a lot of that sh&&. bluey just doesnt know it yet...
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
I think it's a right wing agenda to pretend there is still a relevant communist agenda that is operative in America. Sadly, this does qualify as paranoid delusion. There is no such grouping. Believing in something that isn't there, or trying to graft it onto other groups as some sort of "secret infiltration" appears to me to be futile and false at best, likely just a mask for a naked grab for power.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
I'm not saying you have to believe me. This is just an area to discuss the issue.

In my defensse, however, look at the stated goals of communists and look at leftist policy and progressives in this country.

I would expect closet commies to call me names, marginalize it, or call it some right-wing conspiracy.

Whatever...
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
It's 2010, there are a multitude of very thorny problems confronting us- communism isn't one of them.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
Pickpockets need a distraction, so that you don't notice that your wallet is being lifted.
gonzo chemist

climber
a crucible
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
"look at the stated goals of communists and look at leftist policy and progressives in this country."


Blue,

it's time to turn off the Glenn Beck program. Too much of that garbage will melt your brain.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
too late gonzo, looks like tha damage is done.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
Blue,

it's time to turn off the Glenn Beck program.

This is the last time I will state I refuse to watch that man. He's not an intelligent man even though he thinks he's clever. He's a media tool.

You think the only people concerned with subversive commie goals in this country are Glen Beck and his crew?

It sounds like you guys watch him, not I. I blew that dude off after he started crying about his alcoholism and religion. Give me a break!!!!
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
Chuck Norris would kick all commies and democratics asses with his feet tied up. Go climb!
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
The last great Marxist



"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."
Groucho Marx



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
That was only a year ago. I'm glad you're finally admitting you were a disciple of Beck's for three full years. Unfortunately that's too long to expect any reasonable recovery. Your future surely involves medication.

Are you an idiot? You ASSUME I was watching from the get-go? And why is that such an issue when the commies are telling THEMSELVES what they want?

Why are you stuck on this Beck thing?


EDIT:

It's very questionable if it really was from the 50's-70's.

Yeah, okay...let's just re-write history too. They f*#king admitted it!!!!
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
Feb 24, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
I think we're just wondering you sound like his parrot.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
And why is that such an issue when the commies are telling THEMSELVES what they want?

Is that what you think that link was?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 24, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
The commies are coming, the commies are coming... QUACK, QUACK!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
Gary they're still using the same playbook...

that's pretty funny, Locker.
Binks

Social climber
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
Not only are communist phantoms plaguing you so are "progressive", "green", and "leftist". Honestly how many people so you know that belong to a "progressive", "green", or "leftist" organization so much so that they qualify for demonization under these supposed communist agendas you are editorializing about? I don't know any one who identifies themselves this way. Am I "green" because I compost and bought some CFC bulbs? Am I a communist because I don't really give a crap about traditional family structures? I'm a fiscal conservative but I haven't seen many of them in government lately. I know a guy who works for the Sierra club. I guess that's getting close on those lists. The list you posted from the Frankfurt school listed "Excessive drinking". I mean, geez. Excessive drinker. Must be a communist. These categories are so broad that anybody could be accused, and that, my friend is the real point. This sh#t is batshit crazy.

What you are proposing qualifies as conspiracy theory. These pundits are preying for any enemy to materialize. If they gain power, it will be to start a war. Gotta have an enemy. Even if the only thing they can pin is "excessive drinking". I'm exaggerating -but only a little. The same reason why this stuff if facetious is the same reason the Tea Bag movement can't go anywhere. It has no real target.

Honestly, Blue, WTF do you really care about? Heaven forbid it should be something one someone's communist watch list. Nothing like being branded as being part of some vast conspiracy just for having a differing opinion on some hot button issue.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
"Excessive drinking"?

Oh, oh. McCarthy was a drunk! We're doomed! Doomed!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 24, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
”It is likely that true communists in the USA are as rare as wolves in Idaho, or grizzly bears in California. A fantasy bogeyman.”



Hi Anders…… Often, I can hear wolves howling from my cabin. But I’m more worried about a Ted Kaczynski coming through the door.

Wolf populations? Idaho, about 850….Wyoming, under300….Montana, 550.
Do communists hanging out in Sproul Plaza howl ?


Sorry for the diversion……. with Rox on leave, I feel compelled to guard the flocks......hmmm, about twenty-four in this wolf
pack.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
Feb 24, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
I'm a commie wolf lover....So what?

Bring it.
samg

Trad climber
SLC
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:11am PT
Cleon Skousen's muckraking is one of the main reasons why many Mormons branched away from the church in the 80's and 90's and formed polygamist cults. Kind of a long story and a real shame. Not sure how Glen Beck has managed to overlook that when he quotes Skousen.

Also here is a fun quote about fascism and socialism:

"Fascism is the complete opposite of socialism"
Benito Mussolini, from 'What is Fascism.'

Simple as that.

One thing you have to remember about real Communists is that their intent is the dissolution of the State completely, rather than erecting a totalitarian super-State. Socialism is just a tool for them, to wrest power from the ruling classes, after which the State would be dispensed with.

If you read the FBI files on Albert Einstein, you'll see that Einstein himself was accused of plotting to overthrow the State or specifically, the US Government, because of of his ties to leftist political groups. Since the Cold War and since the totalitarian abuses of supposed Communist governments have been thoroughly aired out, this is a theme you don't hear in anti-Communist propaganda any more.

So it would be wrong to equate Communists with Socialists, and even more wrong to equate them with Fascists.

(Fascism is a political "third way" btw, and contains elements of both the political left and the right)
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:29am PT
It is not wrong to equate Communism and Socialism if Communists are using Socialism as a step in their goal. They are using the State to achieve their goal even if the goal is no State.

There also would still be a State under Communism, otherwise you are discussing anarchy. The people would constitute the State. Who would decide on rules? Utopian Communism is basically democracy without a profit motive. But what happens if I vote against the majority and refuse to comply? There would have to be a mechanism of enforcement - the State.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:32am PT
Naw, we'd just pelt you with rocks......And then build cairns with them.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:39am PT
In my defensse, however, look at the stated goals of communists and look at leftist policy and progressives in this country.

Yep, Clinton was a commie. He worked towards balancing the budget. To be a good capitalist you must belong to the republican party and spend spend spend.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:49am PT
The LDS church publically distanced itself from Skousen and his writings.

Respected BYU history professor Louis C. Midgley accused Skousen of "inventing fantastic ideas and making inferences that go far beyond the bounds of honest commentary."

SLC mayor H Bracken Lee said after firing Skousen as chief of police;

"The man is a master of half-truths. In at least three instances I have proven him to be a liar. He is a very dangerous man [and] one of the greatest spenders of public funds of anyone who ever served in any capacity in Salt Lake City government."

Early LDS leaders such as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young preached the “United Order”, a form of socialism. Many Mormons embraced capitalist concepts but the “United Order” is believed, by adherents to fundamental LDS doctrine to be the final condition in economic evolution. Communism and European socialism are seen as counterfeit systems.
Srbphoto

Trad climber
Kennewick wa
Feb 25, 2010 - 12:54am PT
Naw, we'd just pelt you with rocks......And then build cairns with them.

Try it and I'll put you down with my Big Wall, Smith & Wesson 45 cal "Astroman Special"
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:55am PT
Do you love wolves that are commies or are you a commie who loves wolves?
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:05am PT
"Naw, we'd just pelt you with rocks......And then build cairns with them."

A stoning, a stoning. I'm all for a good old fashioned stoning!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:08am PT
I'm already stoned.
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:11am PT
Wayno, whatever happened to the funny tinfoil hat party or something like that?

We'er overdue for a gathering.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:14am PT
with Rox on leave, I feel compelled to guard the flocks

In case you missed it, he's back. A few tentative posts on Tuesday, almost a dozen today, and who knows what tomorrow's total might be.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:19am PT
We'er overdue for a gathering.

Hi Mimi. The gathering is coming. Wayne and I have been talking about it. Food. Communists. Beer. Wolves. Gonna be great.

Maybe late March or early April?

Is Steve back? Haven't seen him here on ST lately.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:19am PT
The LDS church publically distanced itself from Skousen and his writings.

Just as they have from polygamy - but in reality there's never enough distance between LDS and the inevitable cults and spinoffs it spawns from it's authentic heritage and legacy. I know and have spent time with Joel Skousen (bought the Wind Chapel in Hood River from him). There is much to like about the Skousens as a family apart from their politics and the businesses they copromote with them. And they have a following for a reason and the LDS had and has a significant role in that regardless of their press releases and several decades of working hard at mainstreaming.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:22am PT
Tacos of the world, unite!
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:22am PT
You would rather the LDS leaders advised members to embrace Skousen's ideas and practice polygamy again ?

LDS will never be "mainstreaming" in the USA (as it is). But it's necessary to advise members so they are not misled by the likes of Skousen.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:26am PT
They don't have too. The authentic LDS history, heritage, legacy, core beliefs, and root practices essentially give them a life of their own at this point. A certain percentage of the Mormon faithful will always buy into polygamy and an even larger percentage will always buy the Skousen's perspective on living in the world.
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:26am PT
Back on topic, can the ideal ever get beyond the dictator of the prolitariat, given the nasty nature of a select group of folks in almost every situation.....?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:33am PT
"A certain percentage of the Mormon faithful will always buy into polygamy"


Some will, but they can't be defined as "faithful" in violating church law. That's why they're excommunicated.
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:37am PT
Sorry, this is the commie thread. Can't we just have a little honest godless communism?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:38am PT
What would you guys like to know? I'm holding a copy of the bible in my hands as we speak...


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:41am PT
Some will, but they can't be defined as "faithful"...

They can in every respect be considered faithful to the true heritage and legacy of the church. They can even maintain it's the LDS which is being unfaithful and make a solid case for it. Joseph Smith's wives:

Emma Hale
Fanny Alger
Lucinda Morgan Harris
Louisa Beaman
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Agnes Coolbrith
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Delcena Johnson
Eliza R. Snow
Sarah Ann Whitney
Martha McBride Knight
Ruth Vose Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth
Emily Dow Partridge
Eliza Maria Partridge
Almera Johnson
Lucy Walker
Sarah Lawrence
Maria Lawrence
Helen Mar Kimball
Hanna Ells
Elvira Cowles Holmes
Rhoda Richards
Desdemona Fullmer
Olive Frost
Melissa Lott
Nancy Winchester
Fanny Young
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:41am PT
Mimi, I think your getting to the heart of the matter. How do you remove the nasty parts of human nature from the "guys at the top"? How pure and altruistic can we expect our leaders to be? Should there be stronger penalties for misuse of the public trust? Death perhaps?
Mimi

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:48am PT
Yay, not only a stoning, but a stoning and perhaps some flaying too. Gotta have a proper flogging first, of course. And a fine brine rinse afterwards.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:50am PT
"They can in every respect be considered faithful to the true heritage and legacy of the church."



Being true to "heritage and legacy" is not equivalent to being true to the faith....if the dictates of faith change. The LDS church began as monogamous, becoming polygamous as social conditions compelled. Return to monogamy was obvious evolution as ratio of men to women equalized, (thank heavens).

Many American historians claim the LDS church repudiated polygamy to gain statehood. Not really accurate....Mormons wanted a nation apart from the United States. But the U.S. "owned" the territory...so the Nation of Deseret never came to be.

Interesting list, HealyJE, but somewhat irrelevant to the issue...again, polygamy was not eternal doctrine. Female converts out numbered male in early days of the church. But it should be mentioned that two thirds of Mormon men in 19th century Utah had but one wife.

Getting back to Cleon Skousen...yes, there will be Mormons who subscribe to his ideas. But his rationalizations are his own. Considering he was a professor at BYU and held considerable influence in and outside of Utah, it's valid and reasonable for church officials to communicate that Skousen’s writings should not be taken as church doctrine…especially considering the church's doctrinal belief that millennial society will incline toward socialism.

If you wish to begin another thread I’d be happy to discuss it with you tomorrow.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:50am PT
Can't we burn at least one person at the stake? Pretty please?

And what about dunkings? They're always a ton of fun.

I just love these religious threads.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:54am PT

Bluering must be trolling us
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:20am PT
Kids today remember Vietnam and the Cold War the way a 50 or 60 year old remembers World War II and the Depression - as dim memories. It's a very good sign, I think, that all that anti-Communist freedom fighting nonsense is finally fading into the past. With all manufacturing migrating overseas, there just isn't a proletariat in the US anymore to rebel against the capitalists. The economic system that Karl Marx wrote about just doesn't exist anymore.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:42am PT
Hey Mimi

I have a hot tip on a great source for a fine, brine rinse.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:08am PT
Pelt them with rocks!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:18am PT
Healje, I love Jo's last wife's name, Fanny Young.
I can see the old coot overhearing elementary school roll call, Young, Fanny?...
Here!

MH, as for dunkings, the current politically correct term is "water boarding".


Mimi, when you started to call for stoning I wanted to joint in. But then I realized it wouldn't involve a lighter so never mind.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:29am PT
Marxism is basically Karl's theory on history, especially the economic aspects, and his predictions on what the future holds. Economics is what drives history, according to the Karl.

Economic systems evolve over time, like all pieces of culture. Hunting and gathering gave way to feudalism, then mercantilism, then capitalism. Nobody planned it, there were no conspiracies, it was simply evolution of economic systems. Marx's theory is that the next step in this evolution is socialism. As the capitalists accumulate capital and create monopolies, the next step is for these monopolies to be nationalized. The evolutionary step after socialism is communism.

There's no conspiracy, it will happen naturally. So bluering, better face facts, man. the commies are going to win. Even if you don't drink the water.

On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:39am PT
On no account will a Commie ever drink water, and not without good reason.




Hmmm, Blue seems to only ever have a beer in hand...
Maybe Blue is the common-ist.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Let's not forget the original commie....Jesus Christ, who made all his disciples sell all their stuff and hold money communally for the good of their community according to need.

That's going to really bum out the conservative right when Jesus comes back and wants to raise taxes to 100% (with rebates for need) He'll see Gitmo for sure.

That list Bluering posted doesn't make sense to me. Sounds more like somebody distorting the standpoints of an opposing side by casting them in a negative light

Peace

Karl
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
Karl, I think the Buddhist monks were commie before Jesus. I could be wrong.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
Once you go Red you'll rise from the dead.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
Debunk it? I won't even try to read it. Could you be a little more concise?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
Karl, you're probably right about Jesus. The difference is that he was truly benevolent, not seeking power, not greedy. He wasn't bound by the flaws of mankind.

Men (or women) CANNOT make communism work on any significant scale.


Dr.F, do you really expect people to read all that???
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
Dr. F, I want to say that I'm glad that you have the intellect and take the time to to give us such valuable posts. Of course, I'm on your side of the isle, not everyone on ST will be as appreciative. People having a problem with long posts are the ones most likely to buy into over simplified sloganeering. We live in a "sound bite" time where people can't be bothered to explore a subject in depth.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
Tongue somewhat in cheek, but I do like somewhat extreme manifestos to get the synapses firing.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 25, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
Do you want to reach peoples minds? Or just people that you imagine are as smart and determined as you? Or are you just trying to impress us? Sure, I read it, I read stuff like this, and worse or better, all the time. I don't quote huge slabs of it during discussions.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
Okay, Dr. F, let's look at this one;


3. Develop a thug caste

When leaders who seek what I call a "fascist shift" want to close down an open society, they send paramilitary groups of scary young men out to terrorise citizens. The Blackshirts roamed the Italian countryside beating up communists; the Brownshirts staged violent rallies throughout Germany. This paramilitary force is especially important in a democracy: you need citizens to fear thug violence and so you need thugs who are free from prosecution.

The years following 9/11 have proved a bonanza for America's security contractors, with the Bush administration outsourcing areas of work that traditionally fell to the US military. In the process, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars have been issued for security work by mercenaries at home and abroad. In Iraq, some of these contract operatives have been accused of involvement in torturing prisoners, harassing journalists and firing on Iraqi civilians. Under Order 17, issued to regulate contractors in Iraq by the one-time US administrator in Baghdad, Paul Bremer, these contractors are immune from prosecution

Yes, but that is in Iraq, you could argue; however, after Hurricane Katrina, the Department of Homeland Security hired and deployed hundreds of armed private security guards in New Orleans. The investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill interviewed one unnamed guard who reported having fired on unarmed civilians in the city. It was a natural disaster that underlay that episode - but the administration's endless war on terror means ongoing scope for what are in effect privately contracted armies to take on crisis and emergency management at home in US cities.

Thugs in America? Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000. If you are reading history, you can imagine that there can be a need for "public order" on the next election day. Say there are protests, or a threat, on the day of an election; history would not rule out the presence of a private security firm at a polling station "to restore public order".


First her whole premise is that Bush was becoming a fascist. Well, he's gone. Get over it.

Next she admits her whole Blackwater premise is a red-herring because that's Iraq, not here. Then she balks at the use of 'private security' being used after Katrina and that in one incident these contractors fired on 'civilians'. Were they innocent? Looters? Doesn't really rise to thuggery without more details...which are lacking.

Lastly she points to 'angry Republican males all dressed the same' who intimidated voter counts. Does she have any pictures of this goon squad? And what the hell is intimidation, can she explain???

Now let's discuss Obama and his desire to create a Civilian Police Force, that's just as well armed as the military. WTF? That doesn't seem worrisome to you?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
The Bush may be gone but the roots remain. The Bush appointees to the Supreme Court will be screwing us over for years to come. Witness the Corporate give away in their recent BS ruling.



Have Blue, quick comrade look behind you, it's the RED MENACE!!!!!
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
Lastly she points to 'angry Republican males all dressed the same' who intimidated voter counts. Does she have any pictures of this goon squad?

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-09/local/me-28_1_polling-place

Uniformed security guards hired by the Republican Party of Orange County were removed from Santa Ana polling places Tuesday morning after the chief deputy secretary of state termed their presence "unlawful intimidation of voters."

Outraged Democratic Party leaders had charged that the guards were harassing Latino voters in the bitterly contested 72nd Assembly District, writing down automobile license plate numbers and challenging voters to prove that they are U.S. citizens.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
There ya go Blue. Read it and weep over another beer.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
Gary, that isn't what she said. She changed it to 'angry Repub males'.

Those were security guards hired by Repubs concerned with illegal alien voting. She painted a different picture.

That link is from the 1988 elections too...

And I'm all in favor of having to show an I.D. to vote.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 25, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
we all should realize that no amount of varifiable "proof" (that is proof to you and me, that anyone would say is "proof") is never going to be enough for the blueguy....


he's firmly red-state guy living among blue-staters....


BTW - That story was posted to the web in 1988.. not sure of its relevence to current events.


Blue - the nation has a civilian police force.. and they get a healthy percentage of state funds... not sure what you mean by "Obama's creating a civilian police force" you mention above...


no response is needed really.. I know this all to be pointless bickering about what you don't want to admit.. (how has your life been made by the actions of the last administration, or has your person life turned horably bad since a democrat got into office?)



good day sir
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
Here, Jingy;

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/07/obamas_civilian_national_secur.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
I googled the police force...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Those were security guards hired by Repubs concerned with illegal alien voting. She painted a different picture.

No, those were Republicans concerned with Democrats voting.

That link is from the 1988 elections too...

And how does that make it invalid? You said there had never been Republican goon squads, I gave an example. Even if the local Republican Central Committee sent a squad of uniformed thugs into your house and dragged away your family, you still wouldn't acknowledge it. Why?

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them....To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies — all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Feb 25, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
how's yer chains, Bluey?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
Gary, that's from 1988 mid-terms. Who was prez then?

The whole premise of F's article was that Bush was going fascist. That happend under Clinton. And in your link, even the other local Repubs called it too much.

Actually, it was Reagen who was prez...
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
whatever, F.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
Bluey, Can't face the Truth of being part of a Fascist organization claiming that Obama is trying a Communist Takeover, that is totally debunked

I simply stated what Obama himself stated during the campaign that he wanted a civilian police force that is as well funded and well armed as the military.

He said it! Not me. And you didn't debunk squat. You just said you didn't believe it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
That hurts, Dingus.....
Forest

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Feb 25, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
I'm happy to say that I gave a sizeable amount of dough (for me, at least) to both the ACLU and Amnesty International a few years back. Other recipients of my money, and who should probably be on your list of "communism" (really, communism? What is this, the 50s?)

Planned Parenthood
Democracy Now
Water for People
Natural Resources Defense Council

(p.s. a national civilian service corps is not a civilian police force, no matter how many times Limbaugh and Beck claim otherwise.)

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
Forest he said "civilian security force". Watch the video.

"That's just as powerful" as the military.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Is this propaganda? Obama encouraging people to 'persuade' people through talk radio.

CALLING TIPS

* Be polite, respectful, and clear. Remember, you represent Organizing for America.
* How radio stations will connect you will depend on the show. Some radio shows may connect you right away, but most will take your name and basic info and put you on hold. You may or may not be able to hear the broadcast on the show while you're waiting. You may hear the radio host say something like, "Hello, we have your name on the line with us."
* Some hosts may challenge your views. Stay calm and firm. Sharing a personal story about how health reform affects you and your family is a great way to show the importance and urgency of health reform.
* If you can't get through, don't worry! If the show you call is busy or not accepting calls at the moment you call in, simply click "Give me another show" to find another.

DISCUSSION POINTS

These points are only to provide extra information and suggestions. Your personal story will make the most compelling message.

* For most Americans, their health care plan covers too little and costs too much. Far too many people delay or even skip the care they need because they simply can’t afford it.
* The plan the President laid out includes the largest health care tax cut for middle class families in history and makes coverage more affordable for tens of millions of families and small business owners and expands coverage to over 31 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
* This plan will give millions of Americans new choices in health insurance by making coverage more affordable, ending the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, putting power in the hands of consumers instead of insurance companies and providing one of the largest tax cuts in history while also reducing our national deficit.
* Reform couldn’t be more urgent – just this month consumers in California were told their premiums could go up as much as 39 percent.
* Too many in Washington are now saying that we should delay or give up on reform entirely, but Americans understand the stakes for our economy and our lives, and we want action.

http://radio.barackobama.com/

All the stuff isn't totally factual and the prez is telling people to propagate this stuff with the intent of mis-informing/indoctrinating people.

No?


And at the top of the page is this;

The fate of health reform has been a focus of debate in living rooms and offices, on TV and online -- and on talk radio. And since millions of folks turn to talk radio as a trusted source of news and opinions, we need to make sure OFA supporters are calling in with a pro-reform message.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Hey Bluey, you were born too late, you should have been on HUAC. Uncle Joe could have been your relative.

DICKHEAD.


That's the best I can say, because you have proven yourself to be an as#@&%e with this thread. And to think that I use to think that you were alright. But then you are a TROLL. Sob, "and I thought that Bluey was human, who would have thought?" ;-)
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
I'm curious what changed my status in your mind? Any particular comment?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
Hey Bluey, the best thing that you can do is to let your brain engage before your mouth. Did that ever occur to you? But then, a brain full of McDonalds and Captain Crunch can be dangerous. Let us real Americans take care of the country and planet, not you tea-bagging confused morons who want to suck up to the likes of Glenn Beck and such. Gee, is that a poster of Ann Coulter on your bedroom wall? ;-)

I'll be behind the bicycle shed after school. Meet you there.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
Nobody suggested that yet, Locker.

Socialist, yeah, but not a commie yet....But commies like Lenin and Marx historically started slow and took steps towards anti-capitalism. That the philosophy of so many, just look at the philosophy of the Frankfurt School.

And I'll be damned if I just sit here and watch a Marxist revolution take place. At what point does it become a Marxist cultural revolution? That's the trick they deploy.


EDIT:

But then, a brain full of McDonalds and Captain Crunch can be dangerous. Let us real Americans take care of the country and planet, not you tea-bagging confused morons who want to suck up to the likes of Glenn Beck and such. Gee, is that a poster of Ann Coulter on your bedroom wall? ;-)

You know me real well don't you, in your mind? Who's being stereotypical and bigoted? I gotta eat McWhatever to be an anti-communist? Or if I am am an anti-communist I must be a f*#k-tard moron?


Wes, why can't he be all four?
Gene

Social climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvonsjqE2a4
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
Wes, how do you know what I read? You can only know what I post. Why are you people so assuming?

I read some left-wing stuff. Some 'independent' stuff (AP, UPI, Reuters). The problem is that they are silent on some issues. Factual issues.

Surely you are capable of understanding this. How many times have you heard mention of Obama's radio program or his civilian security force?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
I must be a f*#k-tard moron

You said it Bluey. What did you have a good look in the mirror? Must be the case.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
The real question is, why do you cling so desperately to the Catholic Church after it rejected you? Are you not capable of forming a personal relationship with Christ?

Again the assumptions. I was googling the story and that link was the most comprehensive. I provided you with different links, but you won't mention that because it disproves your theory that it is strictly a moronic Catholic-based conspiracy.

As a scientist this paints you as a biased person. I understand we're loose here, but stop being disengenuous. You want your 'scientific', 'intellectual', standards to be respected but deny when I offer corresponding data from Congressional record.

There are many sources that documented the trevails of communist ideology. I think you know this too.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
Gene put up a great video. Republicans just won't get it.

I am certain that my fellow Americans expect that on my induction into the Presidency I will address them with a candor and a decision which the present situation of our people impel. This is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Nor need we shrink from honestly facing conditions in our country today. This great Nation will endure as it has endured, will revive and will prosper. So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. In every dark hour of our national life a leadership of frankness and vigor has met with that understanding and support of the people themselves which is essential to victory. I am convinced that you will again give that support to leadership in these critical days.

In such a spirit on my part and on yours we face our common difficulties. They concern, thank God, only material things. Values have shrunken to fantastic levels; taxes have risen; our ability to pay has fallen; government of all kinds is faced by serious curtailment of income; the means of exchange are frozen in the currents of trade; the withered leaves of industrial enterprise lie on every side; farmers find no markets for their produce; the savings of many years in thousands of families are gone.

More important, a host of unemployed citizens face the grim problem of existence, and an equally great number toil with little return. Only a foolish optimist can deny the dark realities of the moment.

Yet our distress comes from no failure of substance. We are stricken by no plague of locusts. Compared with the perils which our forefathers conquered because they believed and were not afraid, we have still much to be thankful for. Nature still offers her bounty and human efforts have multiplied it. Plenty is at our doorstep, but a generous use of it languishes in the very sight of the supply. Primarily this is because the rulers of the exchange of mankind’s goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men.

True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. They have no vision, and when there is no vision the people perish.

The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.

Happiness lies not in the mere possession of money; it lies in the joy of achievement, in the thrill of creative effort. The joy and moral stimulation of work no longer must be forgotten in the mad chase of evanescent profits. These dark days will be worth all they cost us if they teach us that our true destiny is not to be ministered unto but to minister to ourselves and to our fellow men.

Oops! I forgot, FDR was a SOCIALIST!!
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
And I'll be damned if I just sit here and watch a Marxist revolution take place. At what point does it become a Marxist cultural revolution? That's the trick they deploy.

I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 25, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
Come on folks, let's not get too down on Bluey. It is apparent that he really thinks that America is under threat from the lefties. He deserves our sympathy and we should start a fundraising drive to get the guy some psychchriatic, eh, some psyching, eh, physickie, eh... some sort of help. Help.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
Sometimes I like you people, and other times I'm puzzled. So Marxism is not so bad? You guys dig it!

That's the big difference I suppose. Conservatives are quite open with their objectives, lefties seem to be all over the place. Twisting and spiralling the truth and intent....
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
Conservatives are quite open with their objectives

Certainly Reagan and the Bushes were out in the open about their objectives. They promised to f*#k up the American worker and they did. The middle class is next. And bluering is correct, they are out in the open about it. And people still vote for them, because who else will protect us from godless communism! And those darkies...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
wow bluey....

i lived in west berlin, you remember, the whole wall and sh%%, checkpoint charlie all of that. i travelled to communist East Germany and other east-bloc countries.

you are far more worried than even the residents of those countries were about big brother and the red threat.

help is available
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
Certainly Reagan and the Bushes were out in the open about their objectives. They promised to f*#k up the American worker and they did. The middle class is next.

I thought the workers were the middle class.

And bluering is correct, they are out in the open about it. And people still vote for them, because who else will protect us from godless communism! And those darkies...

WTF are you talking about?


Hawkeye said;
you are far more worried than even the residents of those countries were about big brother and the red threat.

and yet who succumbed to oppression and totalitarianism??? Us or the East Germans? Of course they went along, they had to!!!


EDIT:

Ricky said;

Bluering, if you look at the entirety of this thread in a different context, say people, not friends per se, but people with some level of interest in you, are overwhelmingly suggesting you have some sort of cognitive deficiency. Let's forget about politics and economics for a brief moment and may I suggest to you you have a genuine problem. Paranoia barely scratches the surface I fear. Perhaps there is someone here on Super Topo who is a mental health professional and can offer you some advice. Perhaps a referral to someone who is local for you. I humbly suggest that you may be a happier, healthier human being and will enjoy your remaining days much more if you get some help in the near future.

I am not kidding here (I almost put that in all caps, but that's not my style). Politics have no bearing here. You have an issue you need to address. I wish you the best of luck.

Let me guess, you think Dr. F is rational and I'm deluded/paranoid/insane, right?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
i travelled to communist East Germany and other east-bloc countries.

Hawkeye, I work with Hungarians and Western Russians too, what do your buddies tell you about the differences between communistic rule and democratic/parliamentary rule?

Be honest.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 25, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
They are coming to take me away haha, coming to take me away haha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Commies_Are_Coming,_the_Commies_Are_Coming

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
Wes, get over it already. I've taken college science courses. on the engineering side and advanced mathematics (for electronics). You just want to portray me as a toothless fool.

Dingus, what?

EDIT;

If you think you and Dr. F are equals on opposite sides of the spectrum you're even more fuked up than I realized.

Hey, dipsh#t, I didn't do that, Dingus did. Pay attention. He made the comparison.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 25, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
That's like asking a welfare recipient if they'll vote for welfare limitations and more jobs programs. Of course they won't, why work when the gov't gives you everything????
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
Welcome to the land of fossilized grey matter.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 25, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
Certainly Reagan and the Bushes were out in the open about their objectives. They promised to f*#k up the American worker and they did. The middle class is next.

I thought the workers were the middle class.

See, there's part of the problem. Since you're so good at analysis, analyze wages, incomes and shares of total wealth by income brackets in this country from 1970 on.
jstan

climber
Feb 25, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
The corporate and employee share of US income from Bureau of Commerce.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=634


It is apparent profits have no limit if labor cost can be driven to zero. Salary and bonus for the CEO and their lieutenants of course are included in wages. If these are not so included the total compensation curve may look somewhat different.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 26, 2010 - 03:44am PT
This whole string is hilarious.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:28am PT
Bruce is right, and I am laughing. Bluey boy, settle down, contact your local Birch society branch and you will be alright. In the meantime, I'll ask the local priest to pray for you. Since I am an atheist, I can't. I am godless. Oh my gawd, I must be a commie. I'll hang myself now so you won't get the chance to do me in.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Feb 26, 2010 - 06:23am PT
Karl, you're probably right about Jesus. The difference is that he was truly benevolent, not seeking power, not greedy. He wasn't bound by the flaws of mankind.

Men (or women) CANNOT make communism work on any significant scale.

No pure system works and all for the same reasons... Impure human nature.

The reason US government sorta works is checks and balances. Capitalism needs that too.

Peace

Karl
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
Blue:
Go look at the "Creativity" thread.

These are the devils we have fought bitterly for fifty years.

To whose benefit?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
No pure system works and all for the same reasons... Impure human nature.

The reason US government sorta works is checks and balances. Capitalism needs that too.

I agree Karl.
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
FWIW:
Werner said something. "You got to let people be who they are."

Now that can sometimes be hard when you feel damage is being done.

Political correctness used to advise one always to walk away and let what will be, alone.

Political correctness has not served us well.

The time has come to sing out when we see a problem.

But do it with agreement as the goal.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
Well said, John, I agree.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
Dr. F, re-read John's post. It sounds like you'd agree too.

He's saying we're better served to speak out, as long as the goal is to reach a better comprehension if not an agreement.

To converse, have a dialogue.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Feb 26, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
bluey said,
You just want to portray me as a toothless fool.

you are doing an adequate job of that yourself...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Not many self identified Comunists left,











but plenty of Manchean Neojacobins.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
but plenty of Manchean Neojacobites.

Shh! Quiet!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
How many card-carrying Communists are there in the State Department, anyway? And what about the card-carrying Christianists? I always get the various 'ists' confused.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
Shh! Quiet!

One posted imediately after me.

They know we are on to them.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
Are you a commie, or a citizen?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w86QhV7whjs
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
We need to look at the sand painting thread titled "creativity." These are the people we are labeling as "communists."

During the battle for Stalingrad these people were fighting the German Sixth army with little more than their bare hands at -40F. You notice what was shown in the paintings and the reaction of the audience? The pain was immense and lasts unto this day. They did not choose their economic system. It was forced upon them by a group of people having only one priority. To gain power. Only to gain power. Nothing more.

The German Army had to force Stalingrad so they might obtain needed energy supplies in the Caucasus. Baku for one. Germany needed oil. General Zhukov committed minimal support to the defense of the city because he was amassing thousands of tanks which would drive the Germans back in the spring, the time the Germans assumed they would be able to operate their armoured forces to better advantage.

During the winter the Russian troops and civilians were luring the German tanks out onto the ice by offering the tanks the chance to machine gun them. Leading the tanks into an area where they had weakened the ice was all the Russians had going for them.

We have our own communists here in the US. Our american communists also want only to have power. As a group their aims are not different from those of Lenin and Stalin. Even their methods are eerily similar.

Saying they will do something and then doing the exact opposite.

Lincoln said foreign soldiers will never drink from the Ohio. Our danger then was internal and of our own making.

As it is now.
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
If so Dingus, then these people will lead us to disaster. They also will partake of that disaster.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
Is Dr F a communist?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWeZ5SKXvj8
Jack Webb thinks so!
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Feb 26, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
My wife is from Russia, born in Leningrad, moved here from St. Petersburg.

Says that at least in the USSR the people knew that the crap on TV was Propaganda, many in the US don't...Seems like a contributing factor for Blue to consider.

jstan, I am almost done reading a book on Stalingrad and while there were many atrocities inflicted upon both sides, I never read about leading the tanks onto the ice. Not saying it didnt happen, I just never heard about it.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
Says that at least in the USSR the people knew that the crap on TV was Propaganda, many in the US don't...Seems like a contributing factor for Blue to consider.

The older Soviet Stalinism isn't the same as the Marxism that people currently aspire for. Of course it usually turns into Stalinism in the end, but they seem to always start with Marxism/Leninism.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Feb 26, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
blue - Not gonna do it...

Your links lead me to what looks like another one of your friends blogs... American thinker.. Are they a right wing think-tank? are they a group of nuts waiting for the black helicopters? Are they all stationed on top of a mountian with a huge weapons stockpile?

I don't know.. but I think it might be useful to reads some of what they have to say in order to determine just where the head is at...

this taken from your friends site:
"Follow my impeccable logic here: While anything can happen between now and the first Tuesday of November, 2012, as the situation exists today (absent a swift and substantial rightward shift by Obama, a dramatic drop in the unemployment rate, the emergence of the Tea Parties as a viable third party, a decision by Obama not to run, or the sudden appearance of a deus ex machina) Barack Obama is a one-term president. If present trends continue, the next president will be a Republican. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, your Aunt Petunia."


So, it turns out that this is one of those whacky groups I mentioned above... And I don't think that just because a nut, or even a group of nuts, is screaming about the right being right and the left wrong that they have any valid information, but if you chose to get all your information from them.. then that's your decision. Keep it up, you're doing just fine, and everything will turn out just fine for you, your family, and all your friends.


Sorry, couldn't watch the delightful vid you have supplied, as I am being oppressed by my emoployer from viewing from work. But this an be expected, because the republican want to give everything to the corporations so that this world is made a better place for all the right people....


I wish I had a checklist of all the left-wing/liberal blogs so that I can come back like you do ("See, jingy.. it's true 'cause this jackazz says so!) but i don't spend any of my time looking to them to give me perspective on the my world, like others do. I get all my feelings from within, I can make up my own mind about what I see going on around me, unlike others who have to be told by the radio what to like and what to hate.

I strongly suggest you take stock of your own situation, then put that up next to how your situation was yesterday, the month before, and the year or years before to see that.. well, if you are anything like the masses of unemployed, and fearing the worst employed (like me, always seems that I am about a paycheck and a half away from homelessness)... I'd think that you would see the error in your views.



But even still... we can get along, becuase you are still a human, and I know we all have limitations of understanding.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
It is a little known fact that the Just In Time Inventory strategy was devised by the Soviets at Stalingrad.

The Nazis and the Commies were duking it out over the huge Red October Tractor Factory. The Nazis occupied half, the Commies the other half. The Russkies were producing T-34 tanks at the factory, rolling them off the assembly line and right into the battle.
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
My wife [...] says that at least in the USSR the people knew that the crap on TV was Propaganda

That is a very astute perspective.

I remember reading the Lonely Planet guide for Volgograd. There was a sentence along the lines of this:

"Even today, construction excavation routinely exposes mass graves."

Sitting here in peaceful suburbia, It's impossible for me to imagine horror on such an immense scale. It wasn't that long ago either.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
Jingy, that is what turned up when I googled what you were seekeing. There is a you-tube video under that link also.
Mason

Trad climber
Yay Area
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
Guys,

Blue is here really as a double agent. He's the true communist. He's just trying to recruit people to his cause by trolling these boards and confusing us.

What is that report a communist hot-line phone number again?

I'm going to call it right now.
jstan

climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
I'll have to try and find where the ice business was written up. It was associated with an analysis explaining Zhukov's lack of interest in supporting the battle in the city.

When I was working as a civilian for the US Navy they let my boss take a sabbatical at the Lebedev Institute, which I thought was most interesting, and useful. He said the people tended to get down and real the most when they were in their cups. Which makes sense when you factor in the extent to which Stalin had used informants to keep everyone terrified. Say the wrong thing and you found yourself in a gulag the next day. No due process.

As an undergrad I took two semesters of Russian. It is an interesting language and since we were adversaries I thought it would be good to know something more than "they are bad and we are good." Very hard language to speak and with all the other courses I simply had to give up. This was not long after the war. Mrs. Gourevich, the teacher, was extremely interesting. She had a little metal cigarette case she would pull out while lecturing and would carefully extract one cigarette while leaving the case open. She always broke the cigarettes into about one half inch lengths without dropping even one piece of tobacco, putting the second half back into the case. Then she would smoke it between thumb and forefinger because it was too short to hold any other way. Most of the other students were in the USAF hoping to learn enough so they would not be totally helpless if shot down. No way they were going to learn the speech well enough to pass.

And Dr. F, I support your valiant efforts to bring people to the point of discussing. It is an immense task and I am grateful you have taken it on.

Today we are functioning by hyperbole. I am trying to work in a slightly different manner. In hyperbole you put handles on the thought that fit into slots in the people, in the way chemicals gain access to the cell. I avoid that as I don't want to bring into play all the prepared pathways. Kerwin is right I am hopelessly constructionist but as our country descends into greater and greater pain the moment will come when people will realize this is going nowhere and we have to change.

We need to be ready to make the most of that moment when people restart their engines.

They will do that.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
Dam, I sooo wanted the "420" post on the Commie-pinko thread:-(
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:19pm PT
Thanks, DMT, but back at you:-)

From who, I don't know...
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
Was Panama Red a commie?
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
I think the problem is that the U.S. was from the very beginning founded as a social experiment and the definition of what is "American" is ongoing and always subject to revision. The only constant is change. When bluering talks about "our schools", "our family", or "our religion" what in the heck does he mean? Those terms have been changing for over 200 years and just aren't set in concrete yet. Of course, Blue would like to define them and hold onto his definitions forever, but real life just isn't like that.

"All things are a changing
Sage Heraclitus says,
But a tawdry cheapness
Shall outlast our days"

 Ezra Pound
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
dktem

Trad climber
Temecula
Feb 26, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
talkes about "our schools", "our family", or "our religion" what in the heck does he mean?


That's the question.

Here's the answer:

http://vodpod.com/watch/2811023-the-daily-show-even-better-than-the-real-thing


Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 06:06pm PT

(Posted just to burn up this guys bandwidth)
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Feb 26, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
Gary, that photomontage, aside from being provovative, is inaccurate. Missing is Lavrenti Beria, the most powerful.

Could Trotsky, among others there, be defined as being "behind Stalin"?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
ROUND eyeglasses seem to have been in FASHION...

That's an easy way to spot a pinko, Locker...

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
Gary, that photomontage, aside from being provovative, is inaccurate. Missing is Lavrenti Beria, the most powerful.

Could Trotsky, among others there, be defined as being "behind Stalin"?

Well, the photo captions are in German, that'll tell you something about the "accuracy" of the line-up.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
What's interesting, and why I don't advocate the outright destruction of commies, is they're quite adept in the arts.

Music especially. Usually the lyrics lose me but the music kicks ass!!!! Take Rage Against The Machine for example. Or Lennon. Jimi it seems was a bit more conservative than most think though.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 08:10pm PT

"ROUND eyeglasses seem to have been in FASHION...


That's an easy way to spot a pinko, Locker..."...

Oh, no!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
So Bluey

Are you saying that all Jews are Communists

I think that is what your saying

You really are a fool, aren't you?


Lennon kicked ass, Wes, he was just misguided....
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 26, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
What's interesting, and why I don't advocate the outright destruction of commies, is they're quite adept in the arts.

That's mighty white of you, bluering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
F*#k off, Wes, there are currently found interviews of Jimi that go beyond what you're saying....

You are just too arrogant to assume someone like Jimi may have some traditional values.
Gene

Social climber
Feb 26, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
I found a Commie!
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Feb 26, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
BUMP!!

cuz chris had something climbing related he was asking us for our input on and communist-paranoidism is more important.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2010 - 09:22pm PT

It'll come out soon...

http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/jimi_hendrix-conservative/

Are you capable of using Google, Wes?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090401053806AAGnkRo
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 26, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
It is 20f*#king10, communism is no longer a factor, come up with some "climbing" posts.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 26, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
Whoa Ron...down boy, glad you don't know where my kids (if I had them) go to school.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 26, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
I found one of them subversive round eyeglass wearers.











DEATH PANEL!












This thread cracks me up.
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
Feb 26, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
I bet chipmunks are commies.
Terrified.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Feb 27, 2010 - 12:10am PT

Philo
Where can I git me some o' dem commie glasses????


Oh, I gots to have sum!!!!!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Feb 27, 2010 - 10:27am PT
Vell comarade SteveDubski Ve can, as the corrupt imperialist youth say, hook you up.











The weird and wonderful world of Fattrad....
Jews=communists=democrats=socialists...

Maybe it's a Clash of Realizations.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Feb 27, 2010 - 01:31pm PT

Matthew 19:16-30 (KJV)
[16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[25] When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
[27] Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
[28] And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
[29] And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
[30] But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.



Wow. Doing the right thing and treating others with love and taking care of others less fortunate and working out what really is truly important in life sounds like Communism.


Therefore, Doing the Right Thing = Communism.



Boy, I must be a Communist. (Tongue in cheek)
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Feb 27, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
No stems no seeds that you don't need, Fox News is bad ass weed.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
I like you Stewart, you're not like the other people, here in the trailer park

Yeah man!!!! Woot! You soooo kick ass!!!!
dirtbag

climber
Feb 28, 2010 - 04:25am PT
Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues

Well, I was feelin’ sad and feelin’ blue
I didn’t know what in the world I wus gonna do
Them Communists they wus comin’ around
They wus in the air
They wus on the ground
They wouldn’t gimme no peace . . .

So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the John Birch Society
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin’ down the road
Yee-hoo, I’m a real John Bircher now!
Look out you Commies!

Now we all agree with Hitler’s views
Although he killed six million Jews
It don’t matter too much that he was a Fascist
At least you can’t say he was a Communist!
That’s to say like if you got a cold you take a shot of malaria

Well, I wus lookin’ everywhere for them gol-darned Reds
I got up in the mornin’ ’n’ looked under my bed
Looked in the sink, behind the door
Looked in the glove compartment of my car
Couldn’t find ’em . . .

I wus lookin’ high an’ low for them Reds everywhere
I wus lookin’ in the sink an’ underneath the chair
I looked way up my chimney hole
I even looked deep down inside my toilet bowl
They got away . . .

Well, I wus sittin’ home alone an’ started to sweat
Figured they wus in my T.V. set
Peeked behind the picture frame
Got a shock from my feet, hittin’ right up in the brain
Them Reds caused it!
I know they did . . . them hard-core ones

Well, I quit my job so I could work all alone
Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes
Followed some clues from my detective bag
And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag!
That ol’ Betsy Ross . . .

Well, I investigated all the books in the library
Ninety percent of ’em gotta be burned away
I investigated all the people that I knowed
Ninety-eight percent of them gotta go
The other two percent are fellow Birchers . . . just like me

Now Eisenhower, he’s a Russian spy
Lincoln, Jefferson and that Roosevelt guy
To my knowledge there’s just one man
That’s really a true American: George Lincoln Rockwell
I know for a fact he hates Commies cus he picketed the movie Exodus

Well, I fin’ly started thinkin’ straight
When I run outa things to investigate
Couldn’t imagine doin’ anything else
So now I’m sittin’ home investigatin’ myself!
Hope I don’t find out anything . . . hmm, great God!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
So I was re-reading "A Brave New World" by Aldous 'the man' and the parallels to our current society and the directions we're heading are striking. (Good book for jury duty).

Comments?

Aldous was brilliant. He called it. F*#king amazing and shocking at the same time....
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 3, 2010 - 12:21am PT
Commies have the best 'staches.


Birchers, not so much.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 3, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
That must be a lot of fun to drive.
quietpartner

Trad climber
Moantannah
Mar 3, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
The bigger the drivin' rig, the smaller the....
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
Did ya'll know the Aldous Huxley and C.S. Lewis died the same day as JFK? Must've been the work of some covert commies...
dirtbag

climber
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
there's a red under my bed
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:13pm PT

I think I'm more afraid of those right wingers like bluey
than I am of communists. . .
dirtbag

climber
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
Kinda sad that people nowadays stay up late worrying about commies.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/9056

you dont need to look under the bed for red. just come to Seattle...of course this is the same Seattle that votes Democrat, pro-environment, yada yada....must be closet communists



[quote]Lenin Statue

Seattle, Washington


Fremont, self-proclaimed "Center of the Universe," is the venue for America's largest statue honoring Lenin.

No, kids -- not one of the Beatles, but Vladimir Illych Lenin, hero of the workers, Communism, and the former Soviet Union.

The 16-ft. tall bronze originated in Poprad, Czechoslovakia, where it was first erected in 1988. It tumbled along with other heroic (and out of fashion) statues when the Soviets went down in 1989. For a time, the 7-ton Lenin lay face down in the mud at the Poprad dump -- until rescued by American entrepreneur Lewis Carpenter. Carpenter, who admired the artistry, mortgaged his house to buy and transport the statue to Seattle.


Carpenter died in a car accident in 1994. To recover the statue debt, Carpenter's family made an arrangement to loan it to the Fremont district until a buyer emerged. Asking price: $150,000. In 1995, Fremont put the statue up in the center of town, near a Cold War era rocket also displayed as public art.

The statue was controversial and remains so -- especially to Russian immigrants. It's as if someone erected a sculpture of a Klansman in the deep South (wait -- someone has), or Chinese Communists sold tickets for a look at Tibetan temples outside Disney World (oh yeah, that too...). Or someone slapped up a statue of Mark David Chapman, assassin of John Lennon, in Strawberry Fields (not so far).

Sure, Lenin the Man endorsed the use of mass terror against his enemies, created the Soviet Union's secret police, and implemented policies that caused millions of peasant farmers to starve to death. But Lenin the Public Artwork is a beautifully crafted sculpture, and a catalyst for healthy discourse.

Today the statue -- still unsold -- is easily visible up the boulevard, past Organic Espresso and Kwangjai Thai Cuisine. He stands in front of a Taco Del Mar restaurant. Locals and passersby pause in his shadow on their cell phones, or rest on the monument steps after a hard morning of shopping. Ironically, he can’t be photographed without the Mexican fast food signs around him.

In the end, a Capitalist victory? Not really a “We Won” message like the Lenin that once stood in Dallas , or the decapitated Lenin in in Las Vegas.

This one seems to say: "Whenever the world is ready for Communism again, freaky lefty Fremont will be there! Please buy this statue."
quote]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 3, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
Far right a-holes like Jim Bunning are holding this country hostage in a way the communists wouldn't have considered possible in their wildest dreams.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
Hawkeye, at first glimpse I was gonna guess the Lenin tribute was in Vermont...

Far right a-holes like Jim Bunning are holding this country hostage in a way the communists wouldn't have considered possible in their wildest dreams.

Wow! Holding the entire country hostage? Really??? And don't underestimate good commies, Jim, they're quite capable. Look back at history. Sh#t, look at Venezuela, the newest commie to hit the scene.
jstan

climber
Mar 3, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
A recent piece by Niall Ferguson in the LA Times suggests empires need not fail slowly. They can fail very quickly.


latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-ferguson

28-2010feb28,
latimes.com

Opinion

America, the fragile empire

Here today, gone tomorrow -- could the United States fall that fast?

By Niall Ferguson

February 28, 2010


For centuries, historians, political theorists, anthropologists and the public have tended to think about the political process in seasonal, cyclical terms. From Polybius to Paul Kennedy, from ancient Rome to imperial Britain, we discern a rhythm to history. Great powers, like great men, are born, rise, reign and then gradually wane. No matter whether civilizations decline culturally, economically or ecologically, their downfalls are protracted.

In the same way, the challenges that face the United States are often represented as slow-burning. It is the steady march of demographics -- which is driving up the ratio of retirees to workers -- not bad policy that condemns the public finances of the United States to sink deeper into the red. It is the inexorable growth of China's economy, not American stagnation, that will make the gross domestic product of the People's Republic larger than that of the United States by 2027.

As for climate change, the day of reckoning could be as much as a century away. These threats seem very remote compared with the time frame for the deployment of U.S. soldiers to Afghanistan, in which the unit of account is months, not years, much less decades.

But what if history is not cyclical and slow-moving but arrhythmic -- at times almost stationary but also capable of accelerating suddenly, like a sports car? What if collapse does not arrive over a number of centuries but comes suddenly, like a thief in the night?

Great powers are complex systems, made up of a very large number of interacting components that are asymmetrically organized, which means their construction more resembles a termite hill than an Egyptian pyramid. They operate somewhere between order and disorder. Such systems can appear to operate quite stably for some time; they seem to be in equilibrium but are, in fact, constantly adapting. But there comes a moment when complex systems "go critical." A very small trigger can set off a "phase transition" from a benign equilibrium to a crisis -- a single grain of sand causes a whole pile to collapse.

Not long after such crises happen, historians arrive on the scene. They are the scholars who specialize in the study of "fat tail" events -- the low-frequency, high-impact historical moments, the ones that are by definition outside the norm and that therefore inhabit the "tails" of probability distributions -- such as wars, revolutions, financial crashes and imperial collapses. But historians often misunderstand complexity in decoding these events. They are trained to explain calamity in terms of long-term causes, often dating back decades. This is what Nassim Taleb rightly condemned in "The Black Swan" as "the narrative fallacy."

In reality, most of the fat-tail phenomena that historians study are not the climaxes of prolonged and deterministic story lines; instead, they represent perturbations, and sometimes the complete breakdowns, of complex systems.

To understand complexity, it is helpful to examine how natural scientists use the concept. Think of the spontaneous organization of termites, which allows them to construct complex hills and nests, or the fractal geometry of water molecules as they form intricate snowflakes. Human intelligence itself is a complex system, a product of the interaction of billions of neurons in the central nervous system.

All these complex systems share certain characteristics. A small input to such a system can produce huge, often unanticipated changes -- what scientists call "the amplifier effect." Causal relationships are often nonlinear, which means that traditional methods of generalizing through observation are of little use. Thus, when things go wrong in a complex system, the scale of disruption is nearly impossible to anticipate.

There is no such thing as a typical or average forest fire, for example. To use the jargon of modern physics, a forest before a fire is in a state of "self-organized criticality": It is teetering on the verge of a breakdown, but the size of the breakdown is unknown. Will there be a small fire or a huge one? It is nearly impossible to predict. The key point is that in such systems, a relatively minor shock can cause a disproportionate disruption.

Any large-scale political unit is a complex system. Most great empires have a nominal central authority -- either a hereditary emperor or an elected president -- but in practice the power of any individual ruler is a function of the network of economic, social and political relations over which he or she presides. As such, empires exhibit many of the characteristics of other complex adaptive systems -- including the tendency to move from stability to instability quite suddenly.

The most recent and familiar example of precipitous decline is the collapse of the Soviet Union. With the benefit of hindsight, historians have traced all kinds of rot within the Soviet system back to the Brezhnev era and beyond. Perhaps, as the historian and political scientist Stephen Kotkin has argued, it was only the high oil prices of the 1970s that "averted Armageddon." But this did not seem to be the case at the time. The Soviet nuclear arsenal was larger than the U.S. stockpile. And governments in what was then called the Third World, from Vietnam to Nicaragua, had been tilting in the Soviets' favor for most of the previous 20 years.

Yet, less than five years after Mikhail Gorbachev took power, the Soviet imperium in central and Eastern Europe had fallen apart, followed by the Soviet Union itself in 1991. If ever an empire fell off a cliff, rather than gently declining, it was the one founded by Lenin.

If empires are complex systems that sooner or later succumb to sudden and catastrophic malfunctions, what are the implications for the United States today? First, debating the stages of decline may be a waste of time -- it is a precipitous and unexpected fall that should most concern policymakers and citizens. Second, most imperial falls are associated with fiscal crises. Alarm bells should therefore be ringing very loudly indeed as the United States contemplates a deficit for 2010 of more than $1.5 trillion -- about 11% of GDP, the biggest since World War II.

These numbers are bad, but in the realm of political entities, the role of perception is just as crucial. In imperial crises, it is not the material underpinnings of power that really matter but expectations about future power. The fiscal numbers cited above cannot erode U.S. strength on their own, but they can work to weaken a long-assumed faith in the United States' ability to weather any crisis.

One day, a seemingly random piece of bad news -- perhaps a negative report by a rating agency -- will make the headlines during an otherwise quiet news cycle. Suddenly, it will be not just a few policy wonks who worry about the sustainability of U.S. fiscal policy but the public at large, not to mention investors abroad. It is this shift that is crucial: A complex adaptive system is in big trouble when its component parts lose faith in its viability.

Over the last three years, the complex system of the global economy flipped from boom to bust -- all because a bunch of Americans started to default on their subprime mortgages, thereby blowing huge holes in the business models of thousands of highly leveraged financial institutions. The next phase of the current crisis may begin when the public begins to reassess the credibility of the radical monetary and fiscal steps that were taken in response.

Neither interest rates at zero nor fiscal stimulus can achieve a sustainable recovery if people in the United States and abroad collectively decide, overnight, that such measures will ultimately lead to much higher inflation rates or outright default. Bond yields can shoot up if expectations change about future government solvency, intensifying an already bad fiscal crisis by driving up the cost of interest payments on new debt. Just ask Greece.

Ask Russia too. Fighting a losing battle in the mountains of the Hindu Kush has long been a harbinger of imperial fall. What happened 20 years ago is a reminder that empires do not in fact appear, rise, reign, decline and fall according to some recurrent and predictable life cycle. It is historians who retrospectively portray the process of imperial dissolution as slow-acting. Rather, empires behave like all complex adaptive systems. They function in apparent equilibrium for some unknowable period. And then, quite abruptly, they collapse.

Washington, you have been warned.

Niall Ferguson is a professor at Harvard University and Harvard Business School, and a fellow of Jesus College, Oxford. His latest book is "The Ascent of Money: A Financial History of the World." A longer version of this essay appears in the March/April issue of Foreign Affairs.

Copyright © 2010, The Los Angeles Times


bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
Fighting a losing battle in the mountains of the Hindu Kush has long been a harbinger of imperial fall.

So this implies that nobody will ever have a successful campaign in the Hindu-Kush? Bullshit! With Pakistani support, it's a done deal. Which is what we have and the Russkies never had.



bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
How do I ignore history, genius????
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 3, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
If communism was our big worry, I'd be a happy man.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
Manichean Jacobins

Plenty of them around.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
Let's see... you will never see battle, the Uhmerikun empire will likely fall before your son comes of age, you ignore history, you are afraid of Commies, you don't like to pay taxes, and you despise the federal deficit.

Clearly we are dealing with a rational person here.

Again, how am I ignoring history, genius???
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
Manichean Jacobins

I think you just quoted one. Bluey.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
What the f*#k are you talking about, Wes? The Russians tried to conquer Afghanistan with no regard for civilians, it was an indiscriminate takeover! Of course, the ENTIRE country rallied against them with a little help from their anti-commie friends, U.S.

What we're doing there now is way different, and unlike anything anybody had done before. That is, ridding the place of oppressive religious thugs, and helping to put in place a humane gov't, while at the same time rebuilding the country like it has never been before.

And it's working. The Taliban have resorted to bombing innocent civilians in their last throws of retaliation.

Lights out Taliban. Time to cash in on your virgins...in a really hot place.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
Aldous was describing life in dr. F's progressive utopia.

Both the Dr, and Wes seem to suffer from the same reading comprehension problems.





Dyslexia anyone?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
Dr. F, re-read the book. And read a history book too.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 3, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
How's that Iraq thing doing? Must be swell over there since I don't hear anything about it anymore.

I'll ask my kid when he gets back next month.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 4, 2010 - 12:18am PT
The Russians tried to conquer Afghanistan with no regard for civilians, it was an indiscriminate takeover! Of course, the ENTIRE country rallied against them with a little help from their anti-commie friends, U.S.

What we're doing there now is way different, and unlike anything anybody had done before.

Wow! Did you miss the news about the 27 civilians we killed last week? Or just conveniently forget it?

In a video distributed Tuesday in Dari and Pashto, the main languages spoken in Afghanistan, the top NATO commander here Gen. Stanley McChrystal said he was sorry to the nation for 27 civilian deaths, after US special forces killed a convoy of Afghan civilians they had mistaken for insurgents. It was the coalition’s deadliest mistake in six months.

While public apologies by NATO have become almost commonplace – this was just one of half a dozen in the past 10 days, and the second by McChrystal himself – the push to admit mistakes and say sorry is unprecedented in NATO’s nine-year intervention in Afghanistan. It fits into McChyrstal’s new strategy that prioritizes winning over the population.

Doublethink in action!

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
The Russians tried to conquer Afghanistan with no regard for civilians, it was an indiscriminate takeover! Of course, the ENTIRE country rallied against them with a little help from their anti-commie friends, U.S.

What we're doing there now is way different, and unlike anything anybody had done before.

Wow! Did you miss the news about the 27 civilians we killed last week? Or just conveniently forget it?

Gary, we're getting off the the topic here, but re-read what I said. The Russians didn't really have a regard for killing civi's.

In our current operation, Moshatarak, that you cite, we had given a week's notice that we going to sweep through the area and it would be very dangerous for civilians. They were advised to leave for camps set up for them in Lashkar Gah.

We have a much higher regard for the welfare of civis...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 4, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
Sorry he had to go in the first place. Glad he's coming home.

He had a choice. He wanted to go.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 4, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
Gary, we're getting off the the topic here, but re-read what I said. The Russians didn't really have a regard for killing civi's.

Oh, in that case I'm sure they feel a lot better knowing that they were killed in high regard.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 5, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
some don't really.

Then they should have not joined.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Naxal-founder-Kanu-Sanyal-kills-himself/H1-Article1-522311.aspx

I actually know a Sikh communist from India. Operates a liquor store on my way to CRSP weekend climbs. He told me once he was a local town commie leader. I joked that we could no longer be friends. I said I was kidding...

He's a nice guy, 2 pothead kids I used to score from. We actually smoked a joint in the beer cooler once!

Anyway, Maoists in India are a somewhat manageable problem. The Indian aren't as PC at 'dispatching' the violent ones. They don't tolerate the whole neo-Marxist anarchy thing.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 23, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
Anyone care to discuss Prop 13? How's that working out for California? Who REALLY benefits from that

The little old lady who has had the same house for 50 years and who would otherwise be taxed out of her own house just because her neighbor sold theirs. She has no income and has no way to gain benefit from her neighbors house being sold yet that very thing would raise her taxes that she has to pay to stay it her own house.

That is who benefits.

Dave
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 23, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
Since the proverbial "little old lady"'s house has risen in value from $30 k to $650k over her holding period, I don't think it would have been impossible for her to take out a second mortgage if she was being outed for non-payment of taxes. Meanwhile the neighbor family has three kids, both parents have to work two jobs, so they can pay 10 times as much in taxes for the exact same house, since they had to buy high. What gives? Put the burden on the young and struggling.

But the real beneficiaries are the corporations - and they largely financed prop 13 originally. Since they are "perpetual" entities, they never die they never have to sell property, so they get to pay the same low tax rates in perpetuity.
Average residential house turns over every 8 years. But those who don't sell get windfall benefit. Why shouldn't everyone help pay for civilization equally?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
Alex. What the f*#k is your problem????

If you give an obscure answer you're a fag.....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 12:58am PT
dude, calling someone a fag is weak bro, come up with some new material.

A couple things...

1st reaction - F*#k off!!! Don't tell me what to say. Especially if it ain't FAG related!!!


2nd reaction - Why is that offensive to you? Is redneck, meth-head, whitey, cracker, white-trash or some other sh#t offensive?

Do we react equally?

Really? Think about it. Who's the racist?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 01:00am PT
alex, don't even TRY to talk to me. You are crazy, or a troll.....
apogee

climber
Mar 24, 2010 - 02:15am PT
"Think about it. Who's the racist? "

That was clear to me a long time ago. Didn't take a whole lot of thinking, either.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Mar 24, 2010 - 03:59am PT
Is this thread still going on? I must admit I'm amazed! All rational argument ends when name calling begins.
jstan

climber
Mar 24, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
You know when someone is going off the deep end, it seems an opportunity to move things in a better direction.

Fogeddaboutit.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
Lot of longevity for a post about a subject as out of date as communism.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
Damn! Hadn't thought about that.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
http://www.cpusa.org/

yeah, communists are an old myth.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
Nah... I caught one just the other night hiding behind my wife's shoes in the closet.
UncleDoug

Mountain climber
Places unkown
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
Bluey,

You'd fit right in with that group of communist homophobes.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 24, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Thanks for the laugh Donini!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
Bluey,

You'd fit right in with that group of communist homophobes.

#1 - I'm not a homophobe, I just don't agree with the lifestyle. Do whatever you want in your house if you're not harming anyone.

#2 - Commies love homos. They hate the traditional nuclear family. Just as they hate religion.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Mar 24, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
Do you really think that only communists hate religion? How about rationalists.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 24, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
A lot of religious people hate religions other than their own.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
Do you really think that only communists hate religion?

No.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
What is Communism?

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wccIqjrGGMk

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg6yXwoEduM
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
I'm not sure if you're posting that mock me or not , Ed, but there's a lot of truth to it.

I like the part about class warfare and especially the clever names of commie groups.

'The American League for Peace and Democracy' sounds akin to the 'American Civil Liberties Union', 'People for the American Way', and the 'Southern Poverty Law Center'.

Yeah, right, communism can't happen here...
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 24, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
Funny quote from many in Part 1:

"I hope you are more than shocked. I hope that you are aroused."
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 24, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
I think that it raised a fear in people for a particular political agenda at the time, which was reprehensible, especially in a country supposedly founded on the principles including freedom to associate with any political organization.

The American Civil Liberties Union is not a communist organization. You are very poorly informed if you have been told that, it is easy to see what the ACLU is for, who it represents... and while that may not be very popular, I suspect you'd be surprised at whose rights they have advocated for in their history. You could take a few moments before posting about them again and at least going to their web site: http://www.aclu.org/

Similarly the Southern Poverty Law Center, http://www.splcenter.org/ or you can look at the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center after which please report back here why this is "like communism"

I find your uncritical acceptance of a information from the news media to be most disturbing.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 12:36am PT
Ed, I watch the cases those two groups take and it's a personal opinion of mine that they are interested in un-American activities. I'll put together a few reasons why when I get a chance.

The head of the SPLC is really a rat in my book. Southern Poverty Law Center? Yeah, right!!!!

What kind of name is that???
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:40am PT
when you say "unAmerican" you have to define what you mean.... individuals have rights independent of the majority's opinion
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:49am PT
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
SEIU targets BofA exec's personal home

http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/19/news/companies/SEIU_Bank_of_America_protest.fortune/

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=297177&D=2010-05-20&SO=&HC=3

Not really Marxists, quite, but more like World Workers Int'l types. I would have a taken a garden hose to them all...at first. Cops did squat too, when called.

f*#king lame...
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 20, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
Damn! I hate it when billionaires are inconvenienced!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
Apparently his neighbors were too, including journalist Nina Easton.

And, my Dad was an Int'l Operations exec for BofA. His is no billionaire...In fact he's a very honest, decent man.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
Someday you or I could be a rich banker just scraping by on a nine figure bonus, so we should always vote in a way that protects that lifestyle for the day when you or I attain it, right?

That's the only reason I can think of for a poor or middle-class person to be stupid enough to vote Republican.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 20, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
History has spoken...


Note that this is climbing related - very nice granite.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 20, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
Apparently his neighbors were too, including journalist Nina Easton.

Nnnnnnoooooo!!!!!!!!!! Not Nina Easton, too!!!!!!!!!!! O! the humanity!

And, my Dad was an Int'l Operations exec for BofA. His is no billionaire...In fact he's a very honest, decent man.

Well, Parvati is a decent gal, but she hitched her wagon to Russell Hantz and it cost her $1,000,000.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
Gary, hopefully you'd agree that it's a pathetic state of affairs when the police won't do anything for fear of 'inciting the crowd'. WTF????

They were trespassing!!! And causing a public disturbance on private property!

I don't know if I would have been able to contain myself. After a warning, I think the homeowner has a right to 'forcefully' encourage people to get off his property.

Baseball bat, say hello to kneecaps. Then the weak-kneed cops would prolly show. And arrest the the wrong person. Pathetic...


EDIT:

Well, Parvati is a decent gal, but she hitched her wagon to Russell Hantz and it cost her $1,000,000.


This is where you people make stupid generalizations about execs. My Dad has been married to the same woman for 50 years. He's very happy too. And he's no millionaire. Maybe close, I dunno. I just know that you people don't see the real face of common bank execs, instead just assume all bankers are blood suckers making billions.

Whatever...get real.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
May 20, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
bluering,

You are reaping the harvest you have sown.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
bluering, you are the king of "stupid generalizations" (e.g. unamerican, communists, etc.).

You should spend more time at http://rantburg.com/ with the other knee-jerks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
bluering, you are the king of "stupid generalizations" (i.e. unamerican, communists, etc.).

Wanda, so you disagree with me that these SEIU idiots are just commie-esque brats? For you to assume all banks execs are blood-thirsty guys making millions hand-over-fist is a bit ridiculous.

Doug, WTF do you mean?
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
What makes them "commie-esque", bluey?

What makes them "brats"?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
Because they want home loans and houses without any risk. They want a high-risk loan for next to no risk and don't expect to pay their dues when things turn bad on their 'gamble'.

You rolled...you lost. Live with it. DON'T EXPECT THE BANKS TO ABSORB YOUR IDIOCY!

In other words, they want cheap, free housing...at no risk!

Brats, because they all appear to be trouble makers that want something for nothing.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 20, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
bluering,

You make a lot of assumptions about their motives. Do you think these are the type of people that were flipping houses?

And where in the hell do you get that they want "free" housing? It's one thing to generalize and exagerrate, but try not to pull stuff out of your ass.

I don't think they "appear" to want something for nothing; maybe they just want to not be taken advantage of.
Augie

Mountain climber
South Pasadena, CA
May 20, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
"Has anybody noticed that all the organized protests against anything American are supported by the same old groups?"

All we need is a comprehensive list of all subjects that are "American" and then prohibit public protests focusing on those subjects. Perfect. Just to make sure nothing goes amiss, let's come up with a list of groups that should not be allowed to protest at all whatever the subject. To make this all a little easier to accomplish, let's eliminate some of those troublesome parts of the 1st Amendment like free speech and freedom of association. Founding Fathers really sent us in the wrong direction with that one! Sounds like, well, sounds alot like a system that Communist governments see as essential.





P.S. I didn't see on your list the Michigan Militia, unless you don't consider the charge against them, sedition against the USA, "sh##ing on the flag."
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
I don't think they "appear" to want something for nothing; maybe they just want to not be taken advantage of.

Taken advantage of how?


EDIT:

I didn't see on your list the Michigan Militia, unless you don't consider the charge against them, sedition against the USA, "sh##ing on the flag."

Let's see if those charges stick.

Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 20, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
Taken advantage of how?

Through their efforts they create wealth. The capitalists then steal, oopsie, I mean accumulate, this wealth. Then call the people freeloaders and lazy because they have the audacity to want to keep what is theirs.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 20, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
The one thing that I never really liked about Jesus was his Communist tendency: redistribution of wealth, camels through the eyes of needles and all that stuff, really anti Capitalist, anti American dribble. If it weren't for the money changers I wouldn't have my big screen or my BMW, and that's a fact!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
Through their efforts they create wealth. The capitalists then steal, oopsie, I mean accumulate, this wealth. Then call the people freeloaders and lazy because they have the audacity to want to keep what is theirs.

WTF are you talking about? The people who lost their houses took ridiculous loans out they could never afford. When foreclosed upon, you think the banks made millions off these loans??? Have you seen the housing market?

Granted some sketchy traders made money, but not BofA. They were out of the biz in 2001, prolly because they saw it was a house of cards. I'd say, good for them.

BofA ain't the demon here. Look up what Fannie/Freddie were involved in under the pressure of guys like Barney Frank, Acorn, and Chris Dodd.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 21, 2010 - 12:00am PT
WTF are you talking about?

I was about to ask you the same thing.

It's funny how you conservatives always project the faults of the capitalists onto the working stiffs of this country.

Corporations get BILLIONS in welfare from the government, but the tea baggers complain about welfare moms and their Cadillacs. (Even though Ronnie Raygun pulled that out of his ass)

Some guy works 50 hour weeks at Wal-mart, but has to get food stamps to survive, and tea baggers call him lazy.

Meanwhile, your capitalist masters laugh all the way to the bank. They make billions, they keep it. They lose billions, suckers like you pay for it.

Keep voting Republican.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
Have I said that I hate Commies yet????

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=300063&D=2010-07-01&SO=&HC=1
or
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100626/jsp/bengal/story_12612676.jsp

Lessons from the Mao play-book. Nice!

They're sooooo humane!

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=300062&D=2010-07-01&SO=&HC=1
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:13am PT
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:18am PT
I'm a communist. sorta.


Hi!
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:29am PT
rantburg?

Have I said that bluering is an idiot yet???

You must actively go out looking to be manipulated--to get wound up and angry so you can spew it all out with a sense of righteous indignation like you enjoy it. Weird.

The problem isn't communists, the problem is with True Believers and what they are capable of. They might be communists, anti-communists, capitalists, fascists, christians, muslims, whatever. Humans have been doing this kind of sh#t to other humans forever.
Jeremy Handren

climber
NV
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:44am PT
"Have I said that bluering is an idiot yet???"

Do you have to?
the kid

Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
Jul 2, 2010 - 09:39am PT
boy there are some bent people on this site.
hmm. must be the rich see their power base slipping away and need to diss anyone who helps those in need (ACLU etc>>)

this struggle between the haves and have nots has been going on for thousands of years..
lose the rant, open your eyes and sit in someone else's shoes for once..

funny how those who bang the drum the loudest for WAR are the ones who get the deferments to stay out of war. Cheney, rumsfield, wolfowitz and bush not really there when he was supped to..
my rant, take it or leave it..
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2010 - 10:49am PT
open your eyes and sit in someone else's shoes for once

this was worth repeating, although sitting in blueeys shoes might really suck...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 2, 2010 - 11:58am PT
bluering said
WTF are you talking about? The people who lost their houses took ridiculous loans out they could never afford. When foreclosed upon, you think the banks made millions off these loans??? Have you seen the housing market?


Depends on which banks you mean, bluering. You don't really seem to understand how this all worked. Many of those banks made TONS of money off those loans because they simply originated the loan and then sold it to someone else. They never had to actually carry the risk, which is why the loans got riskier and riskier and the market finally collapsed. The people who lost so much money in the end were the banks that BOUGHT those loans as long term investments and those people/institutions that invested in those banks.

C'mon bluering that is pretty fundamental knowledge of this issue. Don't go all e-raging about it if you haven't actually been paying attention.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
Clearly he hasn't been paying attention.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
I wonder if bluering could post for us an objective definition of a communist.
apogee

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
If he posts his own definition, it kinda loses it's objectivity, dunnit?
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
Wow. 600.
apogee

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
Actually, 602.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Well, to judge from bluering's posts (and others), there are apparently a lot of vicious dangerous communists loose in the USA. I want to know what to watch out for when I'm in your country, for example at the FaceLift. There are lots of people at that event, and it worries me that one or more may be commie infiltrators. That FatTrad guy, for example - if giving away free BBQ isn't communism, what is? And all those people "volunteering" to help - what's that all about?

It's really for my own safety and security. I'll check with Ron et al as to what ordnance will be necessary to defend myself.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
It's much easier to see the world in black and white when you're uncouth.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
komrade MH, you should be fine so long as you know the right salute and share all of your alcohol and food
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
Listen to Hawkeye, MH. Just bring lots of beer and no harm will be done to you.

Well, except for your liver maybe. But then you can get a free liver transplant from those godless communist doctors in Canada.
pc

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
With the recent bust of the spy ring in New York, we have to think, 'there are others out there...' Possibly even fellow Tacos!

Following the profile, I suggest we look at the most unlikely (best disguised) first. Does anyone here really know anything about Blue"spy"ring's past?

There are other, obviously well disguised candidates as well. You know who you are.
















;)
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
I am what I am. Who are we?
dirtbag

climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
About that Russian spy ring...

What top secret info did they actually obtain? It kind of seems like a joke.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 2, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
They didn't which is why they aren't being charged with espionage. They were "undeclared agents of a foreign power" I think is the term that is being used.



Amazingly, none of them were in Code Pink! (Seriously, if you think Code Pink is anything but a bunch of outspoken ninnies than you are not very well able to ascertain Threats To Democracy).
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
Stupidist thread ever? Let me add to the disaster:

Super commie spy Anna Chapman is haught.
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
They stole Jamba Juice's latest smoothie recipe and the price gun from that insurance chick.
Believe me man, it was serious. Like the Walker case only more insidious.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
actually anna chapman was trying to be one of tigers girls and then persuade him to defect.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 2, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
It seems like over the last 20 years or so, the only spies being caught and convicted in the US are Israeli. What's that all about? I know Israel's origins were socialist, but I didn't know they were commies.

And this "Cosmic Cragsman" guy, what about him? It sort of sounds like communist cragsman, to me.

While we're on these fascinating, arcane, subjects, can someone define what "unAmerican" is? As there are 300 million of you, and a rather diverse bunch at that, it gets very confusing.
Gary

climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 2, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
While we're on these fascinating, arcane, subjects, can someone define what "unAmerican" is?

Just look in the mirror pal. We're on to you Marxist fanatics from Canuckistan.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 2, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
shoot Blue, you have it all wrong!! Those are all just good natured peace loving "ethinc" groups that we should be welcoming with open amnesty cluases just like BO wants us too......But of course ,, knowing his complete disdain for the constitution,,,,he tends to bend toward the commie end of things as well....


At least he has some respect for grammar and punctuation. Christ.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 3, 2010 - 02:38am PT
Just look in the mirror pal. We're on to you Marxist fanatics from Canuckistan.
OK, will do. But one of my grandmothers was born in the US, and I have quite a lot of second and more distant cousins who live there. Plus I live only 50 km from the border, and sometimes go to the US. So I figure I'm at least 0.31487% American, maybe more. The trouble is, how can I tell when it's my good side that's manifesting itself?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 3, 2010 - 02:40am PT
It's ok, MH. Most of us Americans are commies too. What you fail to recognize is that people like bluering insist on loving America but declaring that the vast majority of Americans are in fact "unamerican" for not subscribing to his hard right jingoistic worldview.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 3, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
I was wondering that myself. Isn't "red" another word for commie? Does that mean Republicans are commies? And the "blue" thing - are all Democrats true blue?

Put me down with the purples, eh?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 11:01am PT
Bwahahahaha!!! Chavez is such a putz....

http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=300206&D=2010-07-04&SO=&HC=3

commie!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 11:20am PT
why am I cheap too???
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
Dr. F, you can't even use your own material? You have to quote some BS from another, more witty, poster?

Weak....
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jul 4, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
Because it has been said to you before and you blue it off. It's just a reminder..
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
Do you deny an active communist party at work in the U.S.? Some of whom are at high levels of gov't?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
This day reminds me of America's ideals that millions have given their lives to uphold; You have the right to be a communist in this country. Not sure why anyone would want to be a commie but I support your right to be one never the less.

Andy, I do agree with freedom to hold communistic views. The problem I have is it's advocated to change our system of governing the country. Many 'useful idiots' as they were called thought it sounded like a great idea too. The concept is appealing to many. The problem is it is NEVER implemented they way people thought.

It NEVER has worked in the interest of freedom or prosperity. Me, I like freedom and prosperity, and despise oppression and loss of individual liberty.

That is why I crusade against commies. See you at the Facelift!


EDIT: I believe it's pretty well documented that McCarthy was onto something in his commie-hunt BITD.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Jul 4, 2010 - 03:50pm PT





I like freedom and prosperity, and despise oppression and loss of individual liberty . . . I believe it's pretty well documented that McCarthy was onto something in his commie-hunt BITD.

No cognitive dissonance there?





I crusade against commies.

Do you wear a cape?
























bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
As is typical in conspiracies and counter-culture activity, it easiest to marginalize people, to call them paranoid.

Sometimes they're right, Johnson.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jul 4, 2010 - 05:49pm PT

COMMUNISTS R US!!!!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 5, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
I believe it's pretty well documented that McCarthy was onto something in his commie-hunt BITD

Whatever one thinks of communism, it is hard to view Joseph McCarthy as anything other than either a paranoid madman or a gold-digging witch hunter. His accusations are in the classic mold of political/religious persecution illustrated countless times throughout history. If you can demonize a word, and get that demonization accepted by the masses, you're in a position to destroy anyone you wish.

Don't like Bluering? Then just accuse him of being a commie (jew, homosexual, aristocrat, witch, catholic, tutu, hutsi, whatever...) and there's no need to prove anything. And no defense is possible. Kind of like the old British military court system: "He's bound to be guilty or he wouldn't be here."

So, just what documentation shows that Senator McCarthy was "on to something"? And just what was he "on to"? That some American citizens were believers in communism? I'm not an American, but I believe the constitution of the United States of America is pretty clear about the right of citizens to believe in what they choose, and to speak publicly about those beliefs.

Could be I'm wrong, and I'll certainly listen to what you have to say, but it seems to me that Senator McCarthy was an alcoholic madman who saw a chance to grab the spotlight, and didn't care that grabbing it had an enormous cost to the nation and its citizens.

D
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:17am PT
McCarthy had the Big Lie mastered and then some. But there was just a tiny kernel of truth in what he said. Communism did exist, and did threaten the US, and there were a few - very few - Americans who actually were Communists. Just enough for McCarthy and his supporters to hang their hats on. One of those supporters being Richard Nixon, who made his career as a red-baiter.

It was all grotesquely exaggerated by McCarthy, and the real internal threat to the US was not great. The Russians, for example, would soon enough have developed atomic and thermonuclear weapons, with or without leaks from a few spies. And their missile program was mostly home grown.

Witch-hunts are sadly nothing new in the US, particularly in combination with nativist zeal.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 6, 2010 - 12:48am PT
Witch-hunts are sadly nothing new in the US, particularly in combination with nativist zeal.

Your anti-Americanism is showing, Anders. There are a lot of places where witch hunts are a lot more common and more devastating than they've ever been in the US. Which is not to say that McCarthy and his cronies don't deserve to be resoundingly condemned, but come on, you make it sound like the US is the witch hunt capital of the universe. Your grasp of history is better than that.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 6, 2010 - 01:09am PT
I didn't say anything about other countries - we're discussing mostly the US. You rightly pointed out that witch-hunts are common to humanity, and I didn't have anything to add.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 6, 2010 - 01:19am PT
bluering said
As is typical in conspiracies and counter-culture activity, it easiest to marginalize people, to call them paranoid.


More irony in this thread.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2010 - 01:25am PT
So, just what documentation shows that Senator McCarthy was "on to something"? And just what was he "on to"?

Funny, the Canadians chime in.....

Here ya go love!!!!
http://www.rense.com/politics6/mc.htm
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2010 - 01:34am PT
Don't make me come over there, Locker....
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Jul 6, 2010 - 01:58am PT
If McCarthy was "on to something" then why did democracy persist after he was disgraced and his hearings ended? McCarthy failed and yet we are not a communist state and the communist party in this country is basically non-existent. The proof is in the pudding.

Also, you're supporting someone who literally persecuted people for their beliefs? You don't see the irony (and hypocrisy) there? Using government power to literally blacklist people and pressure others into not dealing with them based on their alleged ideology and potential association at any length with people? You talk of tyranny for providing health care to those who cannot get it and yet you defend this man?