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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I have been here many times. This is the point where we can either:
1) Assume there is not a problem, even though there was a failure.
2) Wait for some mole to return from 3 months in the lab and quote mind numbing statistics about how there isn't really a problem.
3) Wait for another mole to return from 3 months of Ansys simulations. He'll put on a ppt show that will put your best 4th of July to shame. Someone later will find he had to change all his material constants to meet the statistics guy's numbers.
4) Fix the obvious problem.
I say fix the ring feature and get the welding process under control.
Did someone say these bolts are no longer and this one was "The Last One in the Bin" and marked differently to boot? Holy cow if I haven't seen that before as well. I say this bolt was just as likely from the reject bin - the guy who knew WTF left long ago and some scavenger grabbed all the sh#t from the lab and shipped it.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Graniteclimber - from that very page you linked:
Ushba Mountain Works gratefully acknowledges the hard work, research, expert opinions, and contributions of John Byrnes, Skip Harper, Sam Lightener Jr., and Mike Shelton. Numerous other individuals such as Eric Hirst, Marty Karabin, and Josh Blumenthal also contributed.
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Evan Jackson
climber
Austin, texas
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“Thanks for the update. No need for name-calling.”Apologies; just a play on words not an insult.
"I thought C-100 had been out of production for many years. What was the expiration date on that tube?"
The bolt was placed years ago. No way of knowing the expiration date but we always check it.
"How do you explain the bend in the bolt?"
I can't. Residual stress is a definite possibility. I've machined parts to a thousandth of an inch only to have them go significantly out of tolerance the second I start machining a new surface. I’ve even had parts go out of tolerance simply by polishing a surface. Removing a few thousandths of an inch is enough to remove locally deformed material and relieve residual surface stress created during the machining process. These weren’t skimpy parts either, some were 3” thick pieces of mild steel
"So was the shaft exposed prior to breaking or not?"
No. FYI we have a local reporting system for suspect bolts. It works well and our climbing community is very close. No visual warning was present.
"If the rock withered away so that an inch or more of the shaft was exposed" It didn't. Please stop speaking hypothetically.
"Please, please show me ANY bolt that wouldn't bend if subjected to such force with an inch of shaft exposed."
Powers, 1/2" by 3-3/4" expansion. Have you ever tried to pull bolts? You'd be amazed at how strong they are even when they're just hammered into the rock and not even tightened down. I've shanked these guys with a 4lb sledge, taken 4' static falls on them, pried with a crowbar, and nothing has happened. Many times, a bolt will pull partially out and then get stuck sometimes leaving half an inch or more and the opportunity to test crappy placement scenarios.
“You wrote that you fall-tested the bolt by taking falls with "plenty of slack"...It's the short dogging falls with minimal slack that put the most load on a bolt, since there's less rope”
You’re not looking at the big picture. This might be true (but it’s not) if you were comparing 2’ of rope to 40’ of rope, but not 42’ of rope compared to 50’ of rope. Furthermore, loading conditions change once slack is paid out. In the roof, if you are taking a fall from the lip, 10’ of slack will catch with the rope in a load rate near vertical orientation compared to 2’ of rope in which a swing and low impulse is applied.
Think about it this way, would you rather pull out ten feet of slack and take a fall while you were next to the bolt so the rope formed a u shaped bend or would you rather take a fall while you were as far away as possible with the rope horizontal (assuming no obstacles)?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Since this is the first I've heard of a Tortuga bolt failing, and many of them reside at Mickey's Beach
(my local crag), I would hardly call it beating a dead horse. The more information, the better.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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That substantial bend in the broken bolt seems to be the big mystery. By all accounts
(solid, straight vertical placement; vertical angle of pull) it should not be there.
But there it is.
Since my photo of a pristine Tortuga bolt has been mentioned a few times, here's a closeup
from that photo showing the weld and first groove.
The little white marks you see are just surface scratches.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Although I can't guess what happened to that broken bolt, it's worth reiterating that
the Tortuga was developed to solve a very real and potentially deadly weakness of steel
bolts in warm marine environments. I've seen fat sport climbing bolts break under
hand pressure, while Tortuga bolts nearby still look new (and hold falls) after more than
five years in place.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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A lot of words posted to this thread, and yet I am still failing to comprehend the bend ™.
Up-thread I offered $100.00 for hi-rez photos of the bolt (pre-break) as originally installed,
which prove that the bolt was indeed seated all the way, and that the bolt was oriented
faced in the direction best suited for the forces it would be subjected to.
In the unlikely event that someone actually comes up with such pics, I would ask that
the money be donated to rebolting efforts, although that would certainly be up to you.
Also, my offer of $10.00 stands (the cost of 2 beers plus tip) for close-up pics (post-break) of the hole
that held the bolt, and preferably from a view which shows the angle of the bolt in relation to the rock.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Graniteclimber spewed "The Ushba marketing copy recommends the ascender for roped soling "Oh my god, what an idiot" Hardman/Slime is. They were wrong."
To be accurate, the copy says it is indeed recommended for top-rope solo only. And the instructions have a very large caution that states "NEVER grasp the device during a fall!" with an illustration stating DANGER. It also warns against shock loads. The guy who decked has only himself to blame.
The bend in that bolt as well as the location of the break tells us there is more to this story than the weld.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Ain't no flatlander: "The guy who decked has only himself to blame."
Can you explain how you know this? Ushba recommended the device for top-rope soloing and he was top-rope soloing. (I edited the post to say this.) You do not know that the device was shock-loaded. Also, you don't know that he grasped the device during a fall.
The guy who decked should have used back-up knots, but if the ascender failed it shouldn't have.
You weren't there. You have no idea what happened. But just that doesn't stop you from saying you know who is too blame, just like the posters blaming the failure of the Tortuga bolt on the installation.
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sawin
climber
So. Cal.
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navblk4 like yourself does not appear to be prejudicial here.
He stated think.
I think the other request of yours with the reward is beneficial
for determining further facts.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Hmmm, I sent a link to this thread to Liberty Mountain yesterday, and asked them to come explain what they could about those tortugas.
Still waiting.....
Now. before, when Ushba was in charge of this stuff, I used to talk to those guys all the time on the phone. They sent me a special Piton one time (which got stolen off the route GODAMNITALL) to put non corroding pro in a wet section of a climb, and I got one of the old version of the ti nut tool, plus they told me a lot of information about titanium climbing gear applications.
Wish I could get in touch with those guys about this. I know they'd take it seriously.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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OK, I am doing the math on this, film at 11, but one interesting thing has come up.
With this design, it is actually better if you do mis install it and leaver a little shaft hanging out.
So that eliminates the install as a variable.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Degrees from eye bolt axis vs. Percentage of stamped load-lifting capacity available:
15 degrees 55%
30 degrees 35%
45 degrees 25%
90 degrees 20%
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Can someone provide those pictures that Hardman is asking for?
When photographing the hole, please (if possible) use a digital SLR camera set to low ISO. (The last set of pictures were taken with an Olympus 350 point and shoot at ISO 200 and are grainer then they need to be.)
Are there any good pictures of the bolt before it broke? If there are not, push the broken-off piece back all the way into the hole and photograph that from different angles.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Will someone tell DRShlock to STFU?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Hmmm, I sent a link to this thread to Liberty Mountain yesterday, and asked them to come explain what they could about those tortugas.
They're swamped right now with the OR in town. I saw them quaffing beer, uhh, I mean working last night...
They've really not got much USHBA stuff in stock, and, no plans to re-order from what I've heard.
They're the distributor. Not sure what they'd bring to the party with regard to the busted bolt issue. Worth a try, I guess.
Surfing around the 'net, I see the Thai folks have done a ton of bolt replacement using Ti, but, a bolt "like" the tortuga. Anyone know anything specific about what bolts they are using? Seems like they got a direct source for a custom job or some such? Sam probably knows...
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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jstan
climber
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Perhaps, after all is said and done, the leader really should not fall?
Are we coming all the way round? I have seen curiouser.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Granite spewed once again "Can you explain how you know this? Also, you don't know that he grasped the device during a fall. "
According to NorCal, that's exactly what he did. Plus he failed to use a backup, which is a fundamental error. The device cannot be blamed yet you and NorCal want to discredit all products the company made based on this.
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