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Messages 1 - 34 of total 34 in this topic |
waltereo01
Trad climber
Montreal, Canada
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 3, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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Hi,
I'm about to buy a GPS handheld for the climb approach and descend etc ... . I'm wondering, which one is the best for the valley/Tulomne/High Sierra according to your local experience ??
My criteria :
- lightweight
- battery life
- Mapping
- bright screen
So far, from reviews Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx seems the best .
Thank
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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GPS in the Valley can be a problem at times, at least on the floor, as you have limited line-of-sight due to your being in a canyon... the trees don't help, either.
Why do you need a GPS in the Valley? Usually you can see where you are anytime you're likely to be out and about.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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He's asking about beyond the Valley as well.
The 60CS is good. The VistaC is a little smaller and does basically the same thing. The screen is pretty small, though. I have a 76CS. It floats, which makes me feel better about whipping it out in the middle of a storm. When I bought it, it had the most memory of all their units, but now that's moot as they all take memory cards. I was really psyched on the new Colorado 400's. A bigger screen is where it's at, so you can see the maps. However, the new CO 400 doesn't have a bigger screen, just more resolution, and it all seemed way slower when I tried it in the store, and wasn't much smaller or ligher than my 76. I didn't like the controls, either. 60CS or 76CS - both fine.
Get the National Park West 24K maps. They cover all of Yosemite and a little more. You'll also want the Topo USA maps. They cover the rest of the Sierra, but at a lower resolution.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I have always found the Sierra to be a very navigable mountain range. In all my time there (starting in the late 60s) I don't believe I have ever felt like I didn't know where I was.
Maybe it's just me, but studying the topography before going to a place, looking at maps and pictures (and now Google Earth!) gives me, internally, a much better idea of where I am than using a GPS.
John Muir captured it nicely...
Walk away quietly in any direction and taste the freedom of the mountaineer. Camp out among the grasses and gentians of glacial meadows, in craggy garden nooks full of nature's darlings. Climb the mountains and get their good tidings, Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. As age comes on, one source of enjoyment after another is closed, but nature's sources never fail.
from Our National Parks 1901
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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I'm with you on everything you say - but then I bought a GPS. In short, they save time. They are nearly mandatory on snow and off trail because of the much larger contrast in saved time and accuracy over going without. A human with a map, compass, visual queues, whatever, is no match. Wander around aimless and stoned in the spirit of Muir, paying no attention to anything or pay all of it to something other than navigation, then flip that thing on and make a beeline home.
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Manjusri
climber
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I'm not up on the latest models, but definitely get one with a built in compass. Sucks to have to move to get a bearing. Altimeter is nice too for when you can't get the satellites.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Uh Oh.
I sense an ethical debate about to start...
:-)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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For the Valley your best best bet is to get one of them older models, I'd recommend the 'Werner 1000'. It's about as reliable as your gonna get, doesn't need batteries either...just a twinkie or two.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Idaho
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I'm with Ed & Bluering on this one. GPS is overrated, anyway. How 'bout a MAP. Low Tech Solutions INC.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Do you have and are you proficient in use of map & compass? Perhaps combined with a wristwatch altimeter, and an appropriate guidebook, they make a pretty good and very reliable GPS. And are a necessary fallback in case of failure or loss of the more modern type of GPS.
Map & compass take a little more practice and effort, and may not be quite as precise. But they are reliable and time tested.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Columbus had a map and compass.
Look what happened to him.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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I do like a map & compass ($10 orienteering model is fine), plus a garmin geko 201. From what I hear the electronic compasses seem to suck down battery power.
A lot of places you don't really need GPS, but they can be nice to have in certain situations. Make sure your map datum / coordinate system match the GPS settings.
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waltereo01
Trad climber
Montreal, Canada
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
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Thanks for the responses.
And yes, I known how to use a compass / map. But GPS is far more accurate. After reading Supertopo topo on Hight sierra / tulomne, I have the feeling the gps could save me a couple precious hours in trail finding and approach. For example in the High Sierra topo, the approach for Mt Whithney seems to be a real maze.
GPS device is a complement to compass and map. Well that's 300gr in your pack but i think it worth it.
For sure, studiying the map is mandatory before the hike. But still, you could miss some intersections !
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Beware the supertopo GPS coordinates - they are in lat / lon format, with degrees, minutes, and what you might think are seconds - the last number isn't seconds, but thousandths of a minute (this should be apparent because they are frequently larger than 59 :)
For example, the Mosquito Flat trailhead (Bear Creek Spire) is listed as 37° 26' 100", 118° 44' 813" - this is actually 37 degrees, 26.1 minutes by 118 degrees, 44.813 minutes.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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I think they make a cell phone with GPS, if you want to kill two stellar jays with one wrist rocket.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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A couple of my friends were first up the approach to Snake Dike last Sunday. But they weren't sure exactly where the base of the route was. So one of them whipped out a GPS and punched in the coordinates from supertopo. Bingo, they were at the very base, just before 6 other parties showed up!
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Manjusri
climber
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"GPS device is a complement to compass and map. Well that's 300gr in your pack but i think it worth it.
Trust me, you want the compass built into the device. One of the most useful features of a gps is the mode where it displays a large arrow pointing to the next waypoint. If there is no built-in compass, it uses your changes in gps position to determine your heading. This gets really wonky when you are moving slow and pausing to routefind.
My fallback if the batteries die or satellites are obscured is the altimeter watch with backup compass. If I really need to be precise with triangulating I'll carry a compass with mirror as well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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300 g is a lot of weight... if carbohydrate or protein, roughly 1200 Calories, half a day's need... if you are going in the "way back" for as many days as possible just pile up 300 g of food next to your GPS and make the decision...
I remember hefting 'biners vs. power bars on won trip... the choice was to be bold and full rather than wimpy and hungry... maybe that is a false dichotomy... but give a little knowledge carried around in your cranium it doesn't seem to be a dramatic trade off.
Now if all you're doing is wandering around in the Sierra, well, you probably aren't going to starve, but you still can get lost, even with the GPS constellation overhead and you knowing where you are to +/- 3m...
Keep It Simple, Stupid
words to live by (oops, this isn't the check out thread...)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"Bingo, they were at the very base, just before 6 other parties showed up! "
That's what I'm talking about. My best stories involve dinner with lots of daylight left after an epic approach - with time to spare to scout the next morning's start.
"Trust me, you want the compass built into the device."
I have that feature but have never once used it. I always know E from W. Walking 5-10 feet to get a GPS pointer alinged is no big deal either.
"Keep It Simple, Stupid"
I flip on the power, wait 20 seconds, and "you are here" appears in the middle of a detailed map. How much simpler can it get?
If the thing dies, it uses the same batteries as my headlamp. If that fails, which I've never even heard of as most of these things built are like pacemakers, - BFD, I'll be late but probably not lost in the Sierra. On a big mountain in a whiteout, though, you're pretty much stopped or relying on other finicky intruments and voodoo. I think the whole reliabilty/backup arguement is just a theory spouted by those who lack the practice.
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Double D
climber
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"Best GPS handheld device for Yosemite ?"
....The old green Roper guide and sun, moon and stars.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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If you're already carrying a compass & map, then there is no need to have a compass in the GPS. Just read the heading to your next waypoint off the GPS and apply it to the compass.
Then you can turn off the GPS and follow the compass to your next waypoint (that's where orienteering skill comes in). Generally if you are following supertopo waypoints it's pretty obvious where the next one is anyway.
300g is ~10.6 ounces. There are lighter alternatives.
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eeh
climber
East Side
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The Sierra Nevada have to be the easiest mountains in the world to navigate. All you need is a 7.5" topographic map and a good set of eyes. You can pretty much always see where you are going, on and off trail. And, as for the approach to Mt Whitney requiring a GPS - that is pretty crazy. There's a trail all the way up the North Fork, folks. GPS technology has it's place, maybe in a whiteout in the winter, but save your money if you think you need one for the Sierras in the summer.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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My older son Skyler has a GPS "watch" (Garmin Forerunner 205), which he uses to map his trail runs - 2.7 oz.
My younger son Lance has a regular GPS that he got for Xmas - Garmin etrex - 5.3 oz. (or 6.4 oz w/ case).
I haven't tried to navigate with either of these things.
We got a little lost snowboarding off the top of Lassen once with a dense cloud on top. Not much visibility, and a small change in angle off the top yields a big distance lower down. A compass or GPS would have been nice. But I agree, in most of the Sierras, it's clear and dry and visibility is good in daylight.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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In open country, all you typically need is a map. In such country, there is no point in using a GPS unit for anything you might have done with a map and compass.
If you are off-trail in the woods, however, it is a whole different ball game. A modern GPS unit (with a chip set able to handle tree cover) is vastly superior. Such situations are common in the East and Northwest but relatively rare (in the summer) in California or, say, Wyoming.
BUT: I think there is still an attractive reason to carry a GPS unit in the Sierra or Wind Rivers or other open areas, for example in the desert, although not for finding your way around during the day. If you get benighted (No one ever does that, do they?), it can be extremely difficult, even in open country, to retrace your steps and get back to camp or car. You can put your GPS unit in the pack lid in the morning and forget about it, and it records a track that will enable you to reverse your route effectively and efficiently, even in the dark by headlamp light when every space between bushes looks like the trail. It can save you many hours, perhaps a whole night out or a bivouac, and even if it is used extremely rarely, it can make an enormous difference the one time you need it.
By the way, there is other information in a GPS that can be helpful at night, such as the moonrise and moon phase. If you know, say, that you'll have a full moon in an hour, it might shape how you proceed.
I have a Garmin 60CXs. It has chips that work under heavy tree cover (and, to some extent, in canyons and near cliffs). The current lack of 24K topo maps outside National Parks restricts the utility of map-based back-country navigation, but as I suggested above, that may not be the main reason to have a unit anyway. The track reversal feature works just fine even if you don't have a detailed topo map loaded.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"I haven't tried to navigate with either of these things. "
Forerunners are great for pacing and having a good odometer - and yeah, getting a track. Nobody uses them for navigation. I've had mine for 3 years and I'm not even sure how you would get it to display coordinates.
"You can put your GPS unit in the pack lid in the morning and forget about it, and it records a track "
I don't do that as it puts your batteries into the unknown. Also, the only reliable way to get a good track is to have that thing out in the open and correctly oriented, which some people do. It's a little geeky, though, with anything bigger than a Forerunner.
In situations where I need to "wand" the trail, I keep the GPS close at hand and occasionally turn it on, collect the waypoint, then turn it off. Unless you are in incredibly complex terrain or are a retard, all you really need are occasional waypoints. I usually only "wand" when I don't have a digital map loaded.
"The current lack of 24K topo maps outside National Parks restricts the utility of map-based back-country navigation"
Garmin's Topo USA is fine at 100k. Keep a 24k paper map in your pack if you really think you need it. However, fine contours generally are not necessary when you have a GPS nailing your position.
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waltereo01
Trad climber
Montreal, Canada
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2008 - 06:02pm PT
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Good to known that High Sierra and Tulomne are easy to navigate with just a map and compass .
But now imagine, on a long climb (10+ pitches) with an approach of 2-3 hours, I top out in the dark and I have to find my way down and then find the trail to go back to the car. Unless you known the descent or you are with soemone who done it, my guess is the the GPS can be handy in this case.
Unless you known some tips to navigate in the dark with just your headlamp and want to share them ;-) ?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I wrote, "You can put your GPS unit in the pack lid in the morning and forget about it, and it records a track "
JLP wrote, "I don't do that as it puts your batteries into the unknown."
My typical use has been on the approach to a climb, so I turn the unit off when we get to the base and so I've never had it on anywhere near all day. I do carry spare batteries as well, but obviously you can't do this every day on an extended trip. There wouldn't any need to, however.
JLP wrote, "Also, the only reliable way to get a good track is to have that thing out in the open and correctly oriented, which some people do. It's a little geeky, though, with anything bigger than a Forerunner."
Well, I have gotten tracks that got me back in the dark in Red Rock just leaving the unit in the pack lid as I described. The tracks were obviously "good enough," but I don't have any way of knowing how accurate they really were.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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I'd rather have 24K map (lightest thing) with or without compass (next), and no GPS, than a GPS and no map. I almost never go out without the map, not merely for navigation but to find interesting habitats, ski terrain, crags, whatever. Great tool. That said, GPS with an extra set of lithium batteries is also a great tool which I use heavily in work and play. Be sure to be conversant with map datum and use the right one, or those other 6 parties will be on belay while you're a few hundred yards off. Get the GPSMAP 60CSx. Has a newer type of antenna that works much better than older models (e.g., eTrex Vista) under tree canopy; also more easily used interface. I used the 60CSx for habitat mapping in DENSE tropical forest with astonishing success; same exact site where the Vista failed miserably. If you can spare the weight for a GPS, don't leave the compass behind either. Someday you'll want it. Maybe just to barter for some fine fried forest rat (no, I kept mine, and they kept the rat).
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Ah, benighted .. reminds of me of a haiku ..
Caught out -- time to spoon!
Which position do you choose;
Pitcher or catcher?
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marky
climber
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has anyone done the homework on the Oregon versus Colorado series, and how either compares to the GPSMAP series?
I vaguely recall hearing that one of these three series is an absolute dud, but I can't recall which
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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can someone remind me the best/most used way to display gps coordinates?
I'd prefer UTM, but NG Topo can deal with lat/lon, as long as the format is known. It's probably also a good idea to give the datum (I've been assuming it's WGS84).
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Chris2
Trad climber
The Gunks to Joshua Tree
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GPS in the valley...
Gaze Pleasantly Skyward
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