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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2008 - 12:30pm PT
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Any of you big wally haul pack owners have any observations about the biglittle things you love or (perish the thought) hate about the pack? I'd love to hear them...thanks.
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couchmaster
climber
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May 20, 2008 - 04:39pm PT
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While we wait for another person, my thoughts about this great pack. I've been climbing 36 years and don't recall anything close to it, yet I didn't hear of this product until the internet and Joseph Healy pointed it out.
A) Comfort when loaded yet relative light weight. - the Wally pack weighs right on 4lbs, or I suspect that it would if I washed the dirt off of it. The thing is very very comfortable when carrying. I routinely put in a 10lb drill, 10 lbs of stainless steel bolts a 10lb rope and 30 lbs of hardware and gear and it still is comfortable. That is one of the great things about it, and it's main function, everything else follows. All of the "haul bags" with straps pretty much suck for carrying like a backpack. they almost are OK for walking to the base of El Cap, and I'll admit to carrying one up to the base of half dome, and being thankful that we climbed that route so I wouldn't have to do it again.
On the rocks, if you need to, you can rapidly and easily stuff the straps out of sight in moments and haul the pack, that's it's secondary function, one which many of the owners may not even ever use. This pack is very functional operationally and top of the line for both functions. Note that you may consider combining the Rhinotek haul bag material with the heavy Cordura like Metolius does on the Crag Station. Ray Olsen was saying he originally chose the Ballistics cloth instead of the Haul bag material on the back of the Wally as it was significantly more comfortable, and he expected that to last quite well, which it has. As hauling is incidental (by that I mean you will carry it like a pack many many many times to the single time or 2 you haul) having Ballistics cloth/heavy cordura on the back panel should still last a long long time. People going to do a big wall will still need to buy a dedicated haul bag and suffer for the hike in. Some of those haul bags are huge, and someone buying a huge Full-on Rhinotek (or the stronger Metolius material) will be in the market for your backpack anyway, the hike up to half dome would be easier with all the hardware in a Big Walley, and all the soft goods into one of the existing difficult to wear haul bags.
B) The top strap. Critical this still is on it. It purpose, and what I still use that routinely for, is to strap a rope onto the top. Note that you might even consider lengthening it assuming that when hanging down unused it's not in the way. Ropes use to be 11mil, but were only 40meters, now they are commonly 60m or even 70m long, and despite being thinner diameter, there is more mass to strap to the top. I have an A5 haul pack which I have strapped onto the top of the Wally stuffed full of crap for a hike out of a new area, and getting the strap around the A5 and snapped shut was a bear. The A5 could not have carried the Wally, and would have sucked had it had the weight which the Wally had, yet the Wally easily carried all my pins, bolts, ropes, hammerdrill, shovels personal garbage like harness and shoes, biners etc etc AND strapped to the top of the Wally was the A5 haulpack that was stuffed full of weight and other garbage. It still carried well.
C) The top flap. This is working well as is. For alpine packs, keeping the weather out is critical, thus they all seem to have tight little collar top flaps, not so much on this, and changing the design to make it more waterproof would compromise the functionality of the pack. The Desperado pack that Mt Tools developed was modified so that it has a stuffed, tapered lid. The stuffing in the lid makes it smooth and is less likely to hook or catch onto something, yet they sew straps onto the lid which facilitated keeping the Fastex buckles hidden under the lid, which effectively AND SADLY reduces the size of the zipper and the quantity of material you can put in there -and this SUCKS. The Wally's top flap zipper is HUGE, and the space inside very accessible and accommodating. A single Fastex buckle and BOOM you're in, a single snap it and go. Single buckle. This single buckle system is great as you are getting ready to leave, and have the body of the pack packed but need to stuff a bunch of crap you almost forgot into the thing yet. I mean its taking water bottles, cameras, and lots of big things you normal couldn't or wouldn't be able to fit. Furthermore, opening it in the field is a joy as you will never loose crap that falls out, like you would in the old REI Crag packs and some of the Lowes -i.e. where you forget to zip it and the just sh#t drops out unknown to you as you walk into a place. Having the size means that you have a lot more quick access stuff as well. The top is cut to cover the things it needs to cover, (the top and the single buckle) no more or no less. The design is such that you can lay all kinds of things on it and strap it in, and the top flap fits over it. (rope or an A5 haulpack per comments above)
D) The haul straps. At first blush, they might seem like they could hook or catch onto rocks or projections, I have never found this to be the case, and in fact, having that strap there is sooooo f*cking convenient when this pack is loaded to the gills with too much weight. BAM! You can grab it with your knees still slightly bent, and not have to get down farter than your ligaments want to go and yard it up to your back instead of the reverse. On route, a quick wrap of the haul strap around a wrist-sized tree and a carabiner clip while hanging your sorry ass on the side of a cliff and it's secure. Rock climbers often take a full length sling with a biner on it and clove hitch it onto the haul loop of a conventional pack while on a multi-pitch routes to make the change-over's faster. The second, carrying the pack, gets to the belay ledge, grabs the biner on the end of the full length runner that is cloved to the haul loop and clips it in before he whips it off his back. Clip, whip, grab the rack and go: no chance of loosing the pack and your critical valuables. The Wally's haul straps as they exist almost made the full length runner needlass, you can pretty much clip the long haul strap right onto the anchor.
E) Size considerations. Ray Olsen said he was making another model as well, a larger version. He'd mentioned Kurt Smith having a grade 6 model. If you are going to have a single size, maybe making this one slightly larger is a consideration. Otherwise, maybe consider a large model if this one sells (and you should sell the crap out of it)
Mt Tools claims that the Desparado is 3300 cu. I suspect it actually measures @ 2600 cu though as the goods form the Metolius Crag station will fill it up, and the Metolius lists at only 2500 cu. 2500 is a great day size, but too small. There are plenty of day packs, from most Mfgs, you can just grab and wear on a route for a day of climbing, but there is none like the Wally that seem ideal to hike into an area like the Winds carrying a bunch of heavy-assed crap, AND then climb and haul up the route with you should you so choose.
I'm sure Joseph, as an engineer, will have more to say and advise when he weighs in.
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F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
medicated and flat on my back
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May 20, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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Couchmaster sums up the Big Wally very well
I have been using one since 94 and have been very satisfied. I do alot of rope soloing and this pack carries a large load very well, 2 ropes, extra large rack, food water etc. and yet still carries well when not fully loaded. The plastic? sheet inside the pack always made for a comfortable feel against your back while adding support without bulk. The size seemed to be just right especially when the 2nd rope was placed under the top lid. I liked FROG's (raydog) idea of placing a rope strap in the the top lid securing a rope but still allowing access the the main pack.
I would recommend thicker or double fabric in the lid and the bottom. I always left some warm clothes stashed in the bottom and this has helped prolong the life of the bottom of the pack. The lid wasn't as lucky, sardine cans, knifes etc. have caused some holes to grow with age, mainly above the buckle.
I like a good simple functional pack, I would have bought another BW in a second if Gregory still made them. They even replaced the zipper for free a few years ago.
While the BW has seen it's better days I still regularly use it, however I bought a Mtn Tool Desparado and was disappointed. Too small for my needs, and the zipper under the lid is way to small. Shoulder straps were way to short but a phone call took care of that(good customer support). I have not been able to use it loaded up yet due to an injury, however I will use it as an intermediate pack when out with friends and keep my Big Wally for solo adventures.
Don't reinvent the wheel, simple and funtional with good quality and I will buy one. I still use my FROG pack, thanks Ray.
James
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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May 20, 2008 - 11:51pm PT
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I use my "Big Wally" for bolt replacement. It carries good and hauls good. I wouldn't change a thing.. I just got a spool of 11 mil. static and "Wally" is going to be its rope bag. I would buy another "Big Wally" if I could find one!!!
Roger Brown
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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2008 - 02:19pm PT
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My company is making them. After reading about them on the internet, I got real curious, so I contacted Ray about them. We worked out an arrangement, and credit is due where credit is due, you know?
There will be some changes, but I think we'll stay quite true to the original, the intent and the need. BW, KISS haulable pack, carrying the mean load of the bolt kit and the rest.
Riveting the framesheet into the pack represents a decent investment in tooling that we can't do right now. I've got no real choice but to put the framesheet into a sleeve. We've got a few other issues in that regard, but that's the big one. No double needle machines either...
Materials have changed dramatically since '93. We're going to demo the packs in something like the original ballistics as well as try out modern haul bag material. The modern haul bag material has a hand much like ballistics does, and is also a bit more rigid which will result in better load transfer. I will keep the blog updated as the choice of materials develops.
F10, thanks for your feedback about the lid. I will make sure that the lid is burly on top. I want to keep the weight down, but I'll keep that in mind when selecting the lining fabric.
We're on schedule to post some pictures of the first prototypes early next week, and I'll do some pre-orders then. I don't know how that will work yet, and I don't know how popular these will be, but I like the project and I like the proto's we've got moving...
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F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
medicated and flat on my back
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May 21, 2008 - 02:45pm PT
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There is a big difference in the ballistics material between the BW and the M T Desparado. They both advertised ballistic material however the BW is much more heavy duty.
Not all ballistic materials are created equal.
Maybe older is better
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crackers
climber
istanbul/new york city
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Not all ballistics are created equal...
Ever see the difference between Kodra and Cordura? Hypothetically, it's the same fiber chemically, but man, in terms of tear strength and abrasion resistance they couldn't be more different.
F10, I've got 35 or 40 different swatches of "ballistics" material in the shop right now. It's not that older is better, it's that folks often want to deliver a quality product at a lower cost, and think that buying cheap fabric is the way to do it. DSM Dyneema partnered with cilogear not because we've got a huge budget to buy material with, but because we're making good products. I'm not one to spend my time recreating Ray's pattern and making a new pack to then screw it by using crappy, non functional fabric. I can and have made mistakes, but for honest reasons...
Ballistics cordura costs 1.5 to 2.5 times the price of generic "ballistics" cloth. It's worth the money, imho.
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jbur
Trad climber
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May 21, 2008 - 11:34pm PT
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I've had one going on 9 years now. Use it for just about everything. There's not anything that I would change on it. It always amazed me that it went out of prodution. It's a no frills, tough, and light pack that I've used on everything from crags to ice.
The pack that I have is the one made out of ballistics fabric, not the haul bag type material. It has held up very well, and I have not been gentle with it. A climbing partner of mine has the one made from the haul bag type material, and it's held up to everything from Yosemite to Kyrgyzstan and everything in between. His is showing a little more wear from more use, but a little duct tape and it keeps going. If you put one into production, following the original design would be a winner in my book. Jody
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couchmaster
climber
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May 22, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
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The only upgrade to attune to modern times I can think of bump might be the addition of a bladder pocket/way to suck water kind of thingy.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 24, 2008 - 12:35am PT
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it's lacking a bong pocket,
or a place to put my nine...
the design is clearly outdated
probably that guy don't climb no
mo - he jus sittin on hisass
laughin' at fools
blowin' hella bud
and bangin' fine young ladies...
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couchmaster
climber
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May 27, 2008 - 06:55pm PT
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Outdated? Other than the bongwater pocket, what else could you do? BTW, I had my Acterex 65L out the other day and it was just a sick-joke reminder how much it sucks compared to the Wally. Harder to pic up off the deck (small, neee tiny haul loop, I'm use to grabbing the big wallys and not having to bend over to start the process of pulling the pack off the dirt and loading the pack onto my back).
More difficult to get it on my back.
Not as comfortable.
Top pockets have 2 zippers so you can enter it open or closed, but smaller top flap.
2 buckles to clip the top on.
No strap for a rope on top.
Narrower and not as good of feeling shoulder straps.
Too small, and carrying heavier weight (not as much as the wally) already makes my lower back hurt with this one.
Thats the cons - the single pro, a zipper down the side to access your crap, is difficult to utilize.
_
And thats supposedly one of the better built, top of the line, high tech packs out there.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 27, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
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Late to the game, but I'd basically echo Bill's statements - it's the best climbing pack I've ever seen or owned bar none. The only thing that has worn on the pack is the lower front fabric has a few small holes in it. If it wore better there it would last forever, though it essentially already has. Other than reinforcing that lower quadrant I wouldn't change a thing about the design. All the advances in climbing pack design since the Big Wally beyond specialized haul bags and alpine packs have been for shite resulting in bags that border on worthless by comparison. It's the only pack larger I'll rope solo free climb with when I need to take a bunch of stuff along for some reason.
Thank god I got a new one off ebay last year that was an old spare from a mil spec ops team purchase back in the day. So I'm set, but as far as I'm concerned the rest of you folks ought to be clamoring for this baby to be reproduced and jump on them if Cilo makes good on this admirable project.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 27, 2008 - 07:24pm PT
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have an honest question for BW owners/users -
especially those who have used the ballistics version
for hauling:
how does the fabric covering the back panel foam look?
has it held up well?
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couchmaster
climber
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Feb 16, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Big Wally backpacks are about to start rolling this week after a 35 year hiatus/vacation! For those living in caves, the original Ray Olsen design may have been the best pack ever made for Rockclimbing. It was discontinued by Gregory as it was one of the more expensive packs around and many many years ago the few climbers who were around that needed this product were typically poor assed/dirtbagging tightwads. We have more money now. If you want one (and I'm first in line so no tossing elbows here), best not wait until you finally see one in the store cause that's NEVER gonna happen. (maybe never isn't the best word there).
Contact Cilogear as he is only making them to order. http://www.cilogear.com/
I believe that Graham, the owner of Cilogear, could lay this out better than me, with specs, pictures, arrows and diagrams. Maybe he'll see my jumbled words and put something on next which explains all this and makes sense. Needless to say, his lightweight packs are typically purchased (not given) to some of the top alpinists in the world. I suspect that once this packs starts getting used around Yosemite, everyone will want one.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 16, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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I have a MT Desperado pack, and though it may not have the ballistic fabric of the Wally, I have not had one tear in it and the thing has been up and down all around. The pack wears like iron, is lightweight, holds a ton of gear, is versatile and comfortable to wear. The only thing is the haul straps where they attach to the hip belt sometimes if you don't get them right will rub you but other then that no complaints.
The pack will hold double rack, 60m rope, rack of draws, shoes, harness, chalk bag, extra clothing, food, 2 bottles of water, bivy gear,all the rest everything you need for a long 1-2 day climb so it has some room in it contrary to what is stated above. If you really stuff it, it has extra long straps so you can bolt down on top anything that won't fit in the pack. Also built in daisy chain and a good price. That said, I have never tried the Wally.
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