Discussion Topic |
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 10, 2008 - 01:49pm PT
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A rash of coyote attacks on small children in the Inland Empire over the past week has state wildlife management officials concerned.
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Coyotes are typically skittish animals that will run from people. But as their habitat increasingly mingles with humans', coyotes seem to be losing their fear.
"It is concerning to us that we're seeing such bold behavior," said Kevin Brennan, wildlife biologist for the California Department of Fish and Game.
Read Mydesert.com readers comments from Thursday's story on Coyote attacks
Recently in the Southland:
A coyote grabbed a 2-year-old girl by the head and began dragging her out of her yard in the mountain community of Lake Arrowhead on Tuesday before the girl's mother was able to chase the animal away.
In Temecula on Wednesday, a coyote entered a home through a sliding glass door where a 4-year-old child was sleeping on a couch. A babysitter began yelling and throwing things at the coyote to scare it out of the home, but it refused to leave for some time.
A nanny pulled a 2-year-old girl from the jaws of a coyote at Alterra Park in the San Bernardino County community of Chino Hills on May 2.
A coyote came after a toddler in the same park on Sunday. The child's father kicked and chased the coyote away.
Both toddlers who were bitten were taken to the hospital and treated for non-life-threatening injuries.
The Coachella Valley is far from immune from such incidents, with coyotes living in wash areas, foothills and golf courses adjacent to homes.
In January 2007, a former Palm Springs resident walking a small dog on Farrell Drive near the Department of Motor Vehicles was knocked to the ground from behind by a coyote, her Jack Russell terrier snatched from its leash.
In September, a Palm Springs resident walking two small dogs near a wash by Mesquite Avenue was aggressively confronted by two coyotes that were not deterred by the rocks she threw at them. The woman said she picked up her dogs and ran home, the coyotes chasing them.
John Welsh, spokesman for the Riverside County Department of Animal Services, said while coyote encounters are state Fish and Game's jurisdiction, his department gets "a lot of calls about coyotes."
"The Coachella Valley has grown a lot," he said. "Areas that used to be not built up are closer now to where the coyote always roamed."
People need to take "serious precautions about protecting their pets," even in their home's yards, in areas near where coyotes are known to roam, Welsh said.
Suburban living
Aggressive coyote behavior isn't uncommon in areas where neighborhoods interface with nature, Fish and Game spokesman Harry Morse said.
A 2003 study found 111 documented coyote attacks of people statewide over a roughly 20-year period, Morse said.
Many coyotes are born and live all their lives in suburban areas, where garbage, pet food and rodents attracted by bird feeders and fallen ornamental fruit provide a more abundant food supply than the wild, Morse said.
Coyotes have even caused concern in places such as downtown Los Angeles, he said.
"We have a situation here where it's just intensified," he said.
Hunting and trapping efforts were undertaken by Fish and Game to capture and kill the aggressive coyotes in the two San Bernardino County incidents, Brennan said.
Trappers caught and killed three coyotes in Chino Hills Tuesday night, one of which they believe is the coyote that attacked the girl there, Morse said.
Coyote populations are abundant throughout North America, aggressive encounters with humans are happening throughout the U.S. and Canada, and thinning coyote populations isn't an option, Brennan said.
Coyotes have been subjected to bounty hunting, poisoning, trapping and aerial hunting, with no success in controlling their numbers, he said.
"There will never be a program to attempt to thin the coyote population. It just won't work," he said.
"All we can do is respond to incidents as we are doing here."
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 10, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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Bob Carmichael, who is not by any means a small guy, was recently up in the Flatirons above Boulder with a gal climbing the Matron. On his way down, he twisted his knee (hyperflexed it he said): while it took the two of them several hours to descend due to his injury, they were harassed at close range by a pack of coyotes.
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Double D
climber
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May 10, 2008 - 05:47pm PT
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When I used to live in San Clemente dogs and cats disappeared on a regular basis. The local pet store had punch-cards, buy 9 get the 10th free! (just kidding but we all thought it would be a good promo).
Way back in the day Ron K. told me a story that still raises the hairs on my neck. He had been hanging out at Lucy’s parent’s place and while riding his bike back at around midnight in front of the lodge and a couple of coyotes were milling around the side of the road. Ron decided to buzz them and scare them away…bad idea. The pack that was lurking in the shadows turned on him and launched into attack mode pursuing Ron well past the gas station as he peddled at full speed heading to C4….said he was totally gripped!
They’re so cute though, huh?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 10, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
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I saw a pretty bold coyote whilst walking my dog this winter- it charged my pooch- in a park in the middle of SF!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 10, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
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I guess we're pretty lucky in Valley Center, NE county of San Diego. The people population has grown but not that much. We still have plenty of cats and dogs (and children) that remain untouched.
An hour away in the beautiful desert of Borrego Springs, the coyots lay under the palm trees and critique our golf games as we walk by them.
P&J LRL
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 10, 2008 - 08:47pm PT
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Ummm...What the hell do people expect? You build and build and build and replace the wilds with strip mall suburbia. This is going to sound callous but, hey I'll just be honest, coyotes have just as much a right to living space and food as people do.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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I wonder if it is a lack of food supply or are the coyotes getting more use to humans.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 10, 2008 - 08:54pm PT
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Yes Allez, I agree, as do mountain lions and bears and the rest of the natural world that's being decimated by urban sprawl.
Trouble is, we've got traps, poison, earth-movers and guns, and they don't.
(Notice I didn't say "a bigger brain"...hahaha!)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 10, 2008 - 09:05pm PT
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I just visualized Kauk pedaling for his life with a pack of coyotes tear-assin' after him, it's actually kinda funny.
Glad he could pedal that fast.
Today, about 2 hours ago, I left my wife and friend at the trailhead hiking back from the lower tier of Diablo. I went solo to get the car and a nice sized coyote walks across the road and stops, looks at me, I keep walking at him, he continues on across the road. No problem.
I guess small children and pets should be watched though. Coyotes know an easy meal when the see it.
Good day to climb today too!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 10, 2008 - 09:10pm PT
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Various coyote populations might get bolder,
perhaps make some moves?
Then get whacked in droves by Fish and Game, or some such?
I wonder what would happen if you just stood there and let 'em come on?? Are they "just playing?", you know - the way a "wild" canine species might??
I wonder.
Packs can be spooky, but you know how they love to chase.
Sorta think the coyote's would just stand there too, probably
thinking, "hey, he's not playing!"
It's the sneaky sh#t they can do, then factor in small children
and, possible bad scene.
For some reason, not sure why, the idea of a mass coyote uprising is, well - exciting, right?
It would bug me to shoot a wolf, a big cat or a bear.
I could shoot a deer for food, rabbits, whatever.
Don't think shooting a coyote would be a problem.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 10, 2008 - 10:00pm PT
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Maybe this makes me a bad person...but, what the hell. I get more upset when I hear about mass animal killings or species extinction than when there is news of a major humanitarian disaster. Bottom line, deep down, I feel like the loss of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, in a population of 6.6 billion is not a tragedy compared to the loss of, say five murdered gorillas out of a population of less than 1000.
People live totally detached from nature. Animals can and will strike back when there homes are threatened.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 10, 2008 - 10:26pm PT
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RE:
"I get more upset when I hear about mass animal killings or species extinction than when there is news of a major humanitarian disaster"
Well, consrevation seems like a good way to bend this topic -
gotta make a suggestion then:
Eyelids of Morning
by Alistair Graham, Chronicle Books, Peter Beard (Photographer)
In some ways this book is, IMHO a kind of insightful
"last word" of sorts on conservation, especially the ending*.
Alistair Graham doesn't mess around with his priorities,
or with quality staff, and yes I am smiling as I
write, who could not when thinking of the true
creative excellence in Peter Beard's photographic work.
the book makes the point for me, so...I'll let it.
http://www.amazon.com/Eyelids-Morning-Graham/dp/0877015392
great sh*t, IMHO.
*short enough to read in a sitting at a bookstore, if you can find it.
RE:
"People live totally detached from nature. "
why IS that?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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May 10, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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I agree. People have an overly developed sense of self worth. We continue to encroach on their habitat, kill them, trap them, put them in zoos etc. I'm speaking of nature in general.
Then we sit around and whine about them doing what they do, try to survive.
Oh well, not to worry. Soon there will be hords out with their rifles shooting them, traping them, posioning them etc.
Sounds like a real well balanced thought process to me...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 10, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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That's kinda funny Raydog. I bet some of is the thrill of the chase for them.
I think it was Ricky D who suggested that sometime a pack sends a lure out to get domesticated dogs to 'play', then the whole pack devours the dog. I saw this behaviour fist hand with my old dog, Lucy. A single coyote would always come around and wait for me to let her out. I thought it was a love thang, but Ricky D could be right.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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May 10, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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Ahhhhh, come on. Wiley is your friend. Humans, the other white meat. It's what's for dinner.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 10, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
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When Mike Waugh and Randy Leavitt were doing the first ascent of Dummy's Delight in Josh, I was standing around on the desert floor watching. The route looked chossy, hence the name, and so I had decided not to climb it. As I was standing there at dusk I was suddenly surrounded by about 12 coyotes that were doing the yapping thing and growling at me. Mike and Randy were watching thinking I was about to be eaten. Instead I soloed a nice 5.9 slab to get away. Being somewhat small they may have decided I could be taken. They may have been right but they were a little too slow about the actual taking to get me. So, don't assume it is only babies that they will try for.
True story from about the year 1975.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 11, 2008 - 12:09am PT
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IF! If they are ready to attack, I seriously doubt fvcking up only one of them would have any effect.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 11, 2008 - 12:12am PT
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I visited a friend in Yellowstone in 1990 during the winter season. (Got to stay for free)!!!!
But a few days after I left, a skier came upon a 'thing' on the trail that ended up being a coyote who attacked him. He was bitten severly, and struggled back to Old Faithful for first aid. My friend, working for the park, but not a ranger, administered first aid (without thinking, didn't put gloves on).
They both had to undergo the entire rabies vaccine due to the
injuries and contact with the victim's blood. The rangers killed a coyote, but it wasn't known if it was the perpetrator.
Cindy said the vaccine wasn't as bad (it now can be administered in the arm, not through the stomach muscles), but the snowmobile trip weekly to Mammoth Hot Spring was worse!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 11, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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So?
We can't extirpate the coyote like the wolf, only killing the stupid ones so the survivors are smarter, so it begins to evolve into the wolf niche but equipped with a better brain.
And we are surprised they are becoming bolder?
Hell, I'm surprised the coyotes don't have their own space program.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 11, 2008 - 12:16am PT
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I don't see coyotes as getting bolder today.
I don't ever remember a time when coyotes seemed to be very frightened of people. At least not the coyotes around here.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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May 11, 2008 - 12:18am PT
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Everyone keeps saying the coyotes keep trying to eat their dogs from the city. The problem is nowdays, since Paris Hilton made it fashionable, the poor Coyotes can't tell the difference between people's dogs and rats.
Get a real dog and you won't have that problem.
I was spending the weekend in Josh a couple months ago, when there was still frost on everything in the morning.
I got up before 6 and wandered around for a while, got some really good shots of a coyote howling straight up in the air before the sun was up from about 20 feet away. Followed him around for a mile or so, until he met up with his pack that was answering him. From hidden valley to echo rock area. I kept walking around after them, taking pictures as the sun rose, and thought I had the pack cornered once, between a wall and a pile of rocks.
I crouched down ready to take their pictures as the came out of the tunnel area, I could hear them grumbling and walking. Kept waiting, listening to them .. finally couldn't wait any longer, I walked into the 'hallway' to surprise them.
Surprise! No dogs. I looked back to where I had been crouching behind a bush.
They were all a few feet behind that spot looking at me!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 11, 2008 - 12:28am PT
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hey there all... say, in south texas, we saw them out in mid afternoon, at padred island, while we were fishing.... they didn't make a move to come near though---this was near 15 years ago... .or so...
now, then, in the delta area, in california.... near brentwood, or so.... my friend had her daughter outside on the porch, near abouts 10? years ago, and a coyote began approaching the house, eyeing her child... think the gal was about 2, or so...
she says there are still out and about, there, too....
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 01:17am PT
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RE:
"Hell, I'm surprised the coyotes don't have their own space program."
they've been a little busy, Ron - setting up the National Adoption
agency for wayward poodles...
Sheeesh, give some busy coyotes a break, will ya?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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May 11, 2008 - 02:18am PT
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Fifi! Come back with my Fifi!!!!!!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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May 11, 2008 - 04:08am PT
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What with all the bear, mountain lion, and now coyote attacks recently, I begin to suspect the animal kingdom is on the verge of a world wide "animal liberation" revolution. Maybe they've just been biding their time the last few centuries and now it time to rumble. All the two legged creatures are about the taste the rage of the wild ones. ha
and about time too, I'd say
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Kid Cossack
climber
Joshua Tree
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May 11, 2008 - 04:28am PT
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I live next to Coyote Hole in Joshua Tree. Last year my neighbors, Bruce and Martha, were walking their small dogs on a leach. Two Hungery Coyotes raced out of the bush and attempted to run of with both dogs. The couple beat the coyotes with everything they could get thier hands on. Luckily, they were successful.
On the other hand, I have witnessed cruelties to many a Coyote. Just recently one was used for target practice. He crawled to a neighbors back porch to die. My other Neighbor Patty wrapped him in a blanket & put him in the back of her truck so he could die in peace. Also, I've seen badly burned Coyotes that have had gas thrown on them & lite. While the human race multiplies wild animals become more susceptible to abuse & confused over their role in the enviroment.
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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May 11, 2008 - 09:52am PT
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The whole we moved into their habitat and deserve it is a bunch of crap. When I am camped in remote places, like the bob marshall, it is rare to hear coyotes, and when you do it usually sounds like less than 5. When camped near towns I hear huge packs all the time. Populated areas can support larger numbers than wild areas, and the coyotes in these areas have spent there whole live eating out of trash cans, road shoulders, and dog food bowls. I don't feel any worse shooting a coyote near town, than I do setting a mouse trap.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 11, 2008 - 09:57am PT
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Yeah Sketch,
they oughta thank us for being here to support them, huh?
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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May 11, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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Not quite what I meant but I can see how you got that from what
I wrote. Coyotes will do just fine with or without us, much like rats. I think it is strange that people think coyotes in urban areas should be protected, but no one bats an eye when you kill a rat.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 11, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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In another lifetime as an Indie and documentary filmmaker, I worked with tame coyotes on a regular basis for several years.
Once they got it through their heads that I was the Alpha Female (and a real beotch--hahaha!), they were as sweet and gentle and willing to please as any domestic dog I've ever owned. They were also tougher, surprisingly more courageous, and a heck of a lot smarter.
Never felt threatened by them, nor by any in the wild--and I've been around wild ones my entire life.
However, they can sense fear better than any animal I've ever seen, and for a predator, that's like a blinking neon "Diner" sign. Plus with their habitat being replaced by human settlements, it's not a mystery why they've become so aggressive. At least not to me.
Edit: Sketchyy...if you are unable to see the difference between wild coyotes that have been evicted from their homes and hunting territories, and rats who prefer to live in the shadow of humanity, and actually proliferate there as they never could in the wild, then your eyes are closed and I'm wondering how you can even read this thread.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2008 - 10:32am PT
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Outdoor cats in our neighborhood last less than a year. Ours are in by dusk whey the coyote's come down the wash for dinner. Neighbors find the cats in tact except for the innerds skillfully removed.
We camped next to a yappy dog in Jumbo Rocks who was tied to the desert shrubbery. We were hoping he would become a coyote snack when he was yapping at 6am.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 10:54am PT
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Sketch, you seriously have no problem shooting coyotes? Using your logic, we should just shoot the bears that rummage through trash in Yosemite Valley. I just don't get the killing thing. How does one kill an animal feel fine about it? F*#king psychos.
Especially in this day and age. And don't give me the "I hunt to feed my family" line. Such crap. People in the U$ hunt for the thrill of murder.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2008 - 11:06am PT
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Humans killed in excess of 100 million fellow humans in the 20th century alone. Humans inflicting pain of such magnitude is beyond anything you can imagine. And that is not taking into account mental, emotional and physical violence, the torture, pain and cruelty they continue to inflict on each other. Echart Tolle
Psychos seems to fit the bill.
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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May 11, 2008 - 11:11am PT
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Didn't say I felt fine about it, I said I feel the same as if I kill a rodent. My point was that the coyote population is expanding because of us, not in spite of us. The popular hippy notion of "we moved into there area" is not accurate. They were here before us, and will be here after, but in much lower numbers.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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How is it a 'hippy' notion? I think it's a 'fact'. Five hundred years ago there was no LA or Riverside urban sprawl. The coyotes and other species were here before. We most definitely did move onto their land. Or, onto Chumash and Gabrielino land if one is to be human-centric.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 11, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Considering your self-styled label is "vagrant", I would wonder about your sources.
It isn't a hippy notion, as you so technically put it. It is a fact, supported by US Dept of F&W data, various state agencies data, wildlife protective groups' data, and anecdotally by anyone with half a brain.
You think all the coyotes came running into our backyards because they were tired of living in Siberia and decided to migrate?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 11, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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Not sure why sketchyy's waving his arms so, certainly both trends are real --
people paving over coyote country with McMansions in some places, and coyotes
moving in amongst humans in others.
I often hear coyotes yip and howl to each other as I'm walking Jack in the woods at
night. He growls back softly. The notheastern coyotes seem to be a relatively new
arrival, moving into ecological space left empty when the wolves were killed off.
These northeast coyotes tend to be larger than the western or midwestern kind.
Some believe they hybridized with wolves somewhere along their trek east, but then
again animals tend to get larger towards the north; genetics of the NE coyotes seem
surprisingly unclear. They've been pretty shy around me and a 60-pound dog, though
we see their scat on the trail.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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May 11, 2008 - 12:00pm PT
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Here in Michigan we have a decent population in the Lower Peninsula, and had a good population in the Upper Peninsula. Since the introduction/ re-introduction of the grey Wolf in the U.P. the coyote #’s have plummeted. The current Wolf population is somewhere in the area of 500, in 1995 it was 80, in 1980 there were none. Maybe we should introduce Wolves into more urban areas.
Prod.
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jstan
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 12:04pm PT
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The red wolf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Wolf
shares its dentition with the coyote and is thought to share an ancestor
with wolves. I would expect questions of ancestry in the canus family
could probably yield threads whose number of posts exceeds anything
found on ST.
For many years packs of two or three coyote have been taking domestic
dogs in JT. A common occurence. Attacks on small children may come
now just because small children can be found everywhere.
During a long hike many years ago here on the So Cal coast I decided at
2AM to just lie down on the trail and take a nap. Seemed reasonable.
After a bit the coyotes let go very close by and I discovered a reason it
was probably not wise to be down.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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May 11, 2008 - 12:06pm PT
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That is a funny story jstan.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 11, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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There's a $60 bounty on coyotes in San Bernardino County.
Too much work for too little compensation, if you ask me.
Besides, the local coyotes know the only thing I'll send their way is a CB Long out of a CZ 452 (quieter than an air-rifle), so they stay beyond it's 75-100 yard range. This way, we both peacefully coexist.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 12:12pm PT
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A world where large megafauna can only be found in zoos is not a world i want to live in.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 11, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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Chaz,
You surprise me...and in a good way, too. :-)
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 11, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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Round here, we have another pet-snatching critter called the fisher cat (actually a larger
relative of the weasel) that occasionally scores kitties and poodles. They (the fisher
cats) make a creepy screaming noise at night. Newspapers have reported them walking off
with Fluffy from a suburb in broad daylight.
Jack treed this guy one day in our yard. Seeing its claws, I was glad it didn't choose
to stand and fight.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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May 11, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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I don't know why Californians can't get along with animals.
Remember the Grizzly Bears?
I have walked a mile beside a bear in the Valley just like the BC backcountry, had Coyotes wake me up howling in both places, the animals don't change, the people do. Apparently you are taught in California that Coyotes are scary creatures.
I don't camp with food out, or rats or tiny annoying dogs running around though. I guess if you value a yappy annoying dog that hasn't learned to get along with other animals more than a Coyote you will think the coyote is annoying.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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May 11, 2008 - 01:10pm PT
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Yosemite last winter. Does he look concerned?
And since we are talking about hungry little critters, check out the stemming this guy is doing to get in my haul bag!
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 02:02pm PT
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Well, we in CA are taught that the appropriate measure when wildlife "threatens" us is extermination.
Uh oh, a mountain lion sighting in a San Jose subdivision? Better kill them all. Shark attack? Kill 'em. Coyotes? Shoot 'em.
This state has 40 million people. If Vancouver BC had 20 million people to it (roughly the size of the greater LA "metroplex") you might see this kind of attitude there too. Luckily for y'all, the harsher climate keeps growth at a somewhat sustainable level.
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sketchyy
Trad climber
Vagrant
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May 11, 2008 - 02:59pm PT
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The "hippy notion" I was referring too is that children deserve to be bit because coyotes have been on the continent longer than us. (10th post). Yes coyotes were here before us. But when you have wild animals living off a domestic food source, these things will happen. That is why I said "near town"when I mentioned Shooting them. I love to hear and see coyotes when I camp, but when they walk through my neighborhood in broad daylight, it is a different story. Last year less than 2 miles from my house coyotes attacked a lab on a runner in the back yard. By the time the owners could chase them off they had tore one of his legs off and had to be put down. If you think that I am an idiot for thinking some coyotes should be shot, then thats fine.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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May 11, 2008 - 03:24pm PT
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I was approached by 3 one evening in the middle of El Cap meadow they started circling around me again and again only a few feet away with their teeth out making little growling noises. I started to walk back to my car and they followed me continuing to circle around to the other side of the meadow. I got in my car and they got right up next to it only a foot or two away and continued walking around the car the 3 of them in a circle. I kinda laughed like what the heck give up already guys! It was a little creepy.
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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May 11, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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My nieghbors in Mammoth had their Poodle lured out by one Coyote, than the others from a small pack each grabbed a leg and ripped the Pood to bits.
The population around here changes each year, 2 years ago there was a load of Chipmonks and few Coyote, this more Coyote. We hear them party howl every other night.
The Coyote population takes care of itself, if there is an abundance of Coyote the litter count decreases. If there are very few of Coyote the litter count increases, uncanny eh!
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enjoimx
Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
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May 11, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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I want to fight a coyote
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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May 11, 2008 - 03:56pm PT
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tooth:
"Everyone keeps saying the coyotes keep trying to eat their dogs from the city."
"Get a real dog and you won't have that problem."
"I guess if you value a yappy annoying dog that hasn't learned to get along with other animals more that a Coyote you will think the coyote is annoying."
Chiloe:
"They've been pretty shy around me and a 60-pound dog, though..."
(and yes fischer cats are mean arse...)
G_Gnome:
"IF! If they are ready to attack, I seriously doubt fvcking up only one of them would have any effect."
Tricky wording because what are you calling "ready"?
If the Alpha has given the nod or he himself has already tried an aggressive action then look for a tree.
However if you are a healthy adult, way (way, way) before that they (coyotes) almost inevitably be displaying aggressive pack behavior and slowly 'close the circle'.
If you identify all this and do nothing you are 'bait'
Identifying the pack's aggressive behavior... Immediately you should be trying to ascertain who's the Alpha.
Remember they are dogs.
If they get frantic (like any animal) they become way more aggressive. For example: until the first 'bum rush' (almost inevitably by the alpha or a top lieutenant) or blood producing bite, they will circle, plan and intimidate. However until the brawl starts they are pack animals looking too the alpha for direction. If you square off with the alpha way before the pack hypes themselves up the is very little chance of further aggression unless the obvious:
-you are weak and stumbling.
-you are highly isolated in extremely difficult for you (but not they) to negotiate terrain.
-you sit there in the face of aggression and act passive (in this it helps to just lay down with jugular exposed)
Remember they're dogs, they are pack animals.
However if an animal is or appears to be solo and is aggressive, that is almost more intimidating because a single pack animal will show aggression to protect offspring but rarely will act aggressively alone unless under unique circumstances such as the dog is rabid.
LEB:
"I am wondering whether blasting one of them in the face with bear spray or something comparable will cause the rest of them to scatter?"
Never worry about the pack. Identify the Alpha. That's the one you want to keep your eye on and if need be he's the one you take out and yes, generally that will send the pack pack'n.
-A 4oz squirt gun = $2.00 (or better but more to pack, a 'supersoaker' $16.00)
-small supply of chilli pepper water, bleach or battery acid = nothing to a few bucks.
All legal all potent (if not lethal)
Supersoakers are way cool. Handy for coyotes, snakes, bears and aggressive humans.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Years and years ago there was a funny/not funny story going around N.Conway N.H.
Jimmy Dunn was hiking down an old logging road headed for 'crack in the Woods' area...
and was attacked by a beaver. That's right a beaver. It jumped on him from the uphill side of the road as he passed.
When I think of getting 'jumped by a beaver' that is hardly what I would consider good fun!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 04:06pm PT
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RE:
" I want to fight a coyote"
Tell ya the truth, getting your hands on one of those scrappy
f*#ks long enough to finish it, might be the crux - are there
methods of dealing w/ canine attack unarmed, meaning no club, knife etc??
I may be wrong, there may be better data on it but, I believe the standard mode is to simply stop and, as the left arm is being offered as bait (or bitten) you take control of the animals lower jaw, then w/ the opposite hand, the upper jaw - and end the conflict that way.
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Ouch!
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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AH! Breakfast.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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May 11, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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I'm with you Sketchyy. They are not an issue here though, lots of area and food sources. They stay pretty much to themselves. I have a pal who raies pheasant, he has to deal with them on a regular basis. Bobcat on occasion, and fox really reak havoc on him.
TrundleBum,
I'd love to hear more of that Bever story. Did it get it's teeth on him? A friends dog got into it with a bever and had to be put down shortly afterwards.
Prod.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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hahahaha!
fukk, hilarious!
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 11, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Chit. There went the neighborhood.
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jstan
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 06:03pm PT
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Oh god!
A Rok attack.
You need to take up writing. Right there you have the images for an
article in Field and Stream? Comedy section. They don't have a comedy
section? Let'um create one. Double their subscriptions. Mail that to F&S.
See what they say.
Can you do that once a month?
I know you have a pitchfork and coveralls. Get a picture of you standing
next to the missus and send it along too.
Yewl be able to afford diamonds as big as horse apples.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 11, 2008 - 06:13pm PT
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I don't know from coyotes, but a squirt in the face with just plain tap water from a Specialized 28oz bottle has shown every DOG who has tried chasing my bicycle the error of his ways.
Try THAT with your Camelback, you trenders.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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May 11, 2008 - 06:42pm PT
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Prod:
I don't know much about the details of the Beaver attacking Jimmy Dunn.
I know he went to the hospital and got a rabies shot etc..
Perhaps "Chiloe" or Steve grossman have more info?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jeez RokJox ?
What's with the animosity?
You can express your disagreement with a lot less.
First are we talking about scrappy 60lb coyote or gnar gnar wolf weighing in at well over twice that ?
I thought the thread even though wandering was about coyotes, so if you want to argue discussion of dealing with a 'back hoe' by citing the destructive power of a full sized 'D9 Cat'... go ahead.
I have never encountered wolves let alone extremely hungry and aggressive ones. Therefore I am not/would not comment on an encounter with them. I have however had to deal with plenty of other dogs.
I have been around dogs large, small, feral and domestic all my life.
This thread is about coyotes and postulating about dealing with an attack from one or a group.
I stand by what I said about dealing with aggressive canine.
If you are a healthy adult, then you confront them, preferably addressing the alpha dog, well before any peemptive strike on their part.
Some people are not comfortable around animals let alone large ones. They perhaps should be a little more wary of travelling in an area without sufficient backup/defence. To these people I offered the idea of a cheap toxic fluid propellent as areal way too thwart a first lunge by an aggressive canaine (coyote sized).
So lets take a look at this, hmmm...
RokJox You say:
"those who tell you the perfect solution.."
I say ... who said anything about perfect solution, I think the whole idea smacks more of 'last ditch effort'.
RokJox You say:
"Too bad they have almost NEVER tried out their solutions..."
I say... I will address this final.
Roxjox you say:
"Chili powder is not going to do a damn thing...
I say, perhaps I should have worded it more verbose or perhaps you need to read with a little less speed and more comprehension ? Where did you read "Chili powder"
I recall using the term "chilli pepper water". Apparently you are unaware of what entirely I mean by "chilli pepper water"!
RoxJox you say:
"only a perfect eyeshot will make ANY difference.."
You are clueless buddy ...
Bleach or amonnia either way .. enough with your taunting and snyd BS actually why am I sitting here trying to be polite?
Look I tell you what.
Let's get together you show aggressive posturing and corner me with all your adolescent vocabulary and I will have my weaney little squirt gun. With it's supposed useless load of ammonia say. I garrauntee all your aggression and angy will not get your best bumm rush close enough to me to have much effect if you even can manage to continue to the point of grappling.
Just one good squirt of ammonia anywhere near the mucas membranes ie: eyes, nose, mouth...
I aint buying it because...
Cuz I have done it more than a few times, so if you want to be a crittic, I say be experimental give it a go someday. You could be a real hero and prove me wrong ? Or... be reall hurting for much longer than it takes for your victim to become your advisary and do further nuetralizing damage or more mature.. simply escape.
I am willing to chance it, not even much of a chance.
You bum rush me from 15' feet, whille I have a squirt gun full of bleach or ammonia.. I'll go for it (once again).
~~~~~~~~~~~~
But RoxJox why all the animosty?
You keep citing random, vaque details. It sounds like you had to defend your child from a wolf attack ?
I am assuming it worked out ok ? You held your ground and defended your and 'yourn'.
It sounds gripping.
But why all the animosity ?
You were in a real situation, you dealt with the weight of the situation and come through OK by your own deliberance.
Is this a reason to just go all macho, pissy ?
You make it sound like you are the big macho man of the woods, a real Paul Bunyon.
You make it sound like I go camping in the Yukon with a gaggle wounded Chihuahua Puppies, with bacon greeze smeared on them to protect them from insects and I expect to defend me and mine with syringe full of koolaide.
Why ?
Why do I feel a need to defend myself from this verbal assault that comes from someone that has no clue what my background or experiences have been ?
Any way I said it I stand by it you Roxjox or any other of the gnarliest of macho dweebs that want to try taking me out bare handed with forwarning from distance...
While I am holding a supersoaker full of some concoction...
I wish yah the best ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What raydog said above is pretty valid:
"I believe the standard mode is to simply... the left arm is being offered as bait (or bitten) you take control of the animals..."
This is correct in my experience, I have dispatched more than one in this manner.
But that advice is not for the people that feel the need to ask advice on dealing with aggressive canines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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May 11, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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Geese Rok,
Having a hard day?
So how many wolves have you encountered in the wild? Pretty rare event for sure.
Prod.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2008 - 06:46pm PT
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Being a California Hippy, I sprinkle the alpha coyote with Chardonay. It is important to always carry a cork screw. I always keep a bit for myself as well.
Coyote Chardonay day dreams keep me happy....
la la la lla laaaa....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 11, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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Tooth- some of us So. Cal's are ok. We have a large Bobcat that takes regular hikes across our back patio near Anza Borrego State Park. We only shoot him with a camera, at a Very respectful distance cause he is Large.
I do warn all visitors with small children that he is around. I warn them about barefeet and cactus too. Life is full of things that can hurt. Do we get rid of all of them. I think not. LRL
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Ouch!
climber
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May 11, 2008 - 06:57pm PT
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I wanna be a macho dweeb.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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About beavers, a friend of mine had a dog that would chase this beaver around his pond all the time. Finally the beaver got pissed, swam underneath him, and bit his balls off. Seriously, neutered the poor lab.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 07:19pm PT
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I think the Boulder coyotes are getting in
touch with their inner child, too...
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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May 11, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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Rok made me think of this...
Psycho: My name's Francis Sawyer... but everyone calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis... I'll kill ya.
Leon: Ooooooh.
Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. Also, I don't like no one touching my stuff. So just keep your meathooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff... I'll kill ya. And I don't like nobody touching me. Any of you homos touch me... I'll kill ya.
Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis. We're all in this together. One of these men may save your life one of these days, you understand that?
'Winger: Then again maybe one of us won't.
Prod.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 11, 2008 - 07:37pm PT
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JStan,
You made me laugh.
Unfortunately, you used words with more than one syllable and it went right over the head of...what did Russ call him? Brain-damaged pothead with too much time on his hands? Something painfully truthful like that.
Pity.
Field & Stream...priceless.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 11, 2008 - 07:54pm PT
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Rokjox, You are way wrong about some So. Cal's! First, is it a safe bet to say you are from Montana or Wyo. That's where we smuggle all our fireworks in from.
We moved to NE San Diego County in '82 and have shot off fireworks of the large variety on July 4 and New Years since we moved here.
My husband got into making large fireworks, like the Disney type. At the same time we had a new Firestation go in about 1/2 mile from us.
One day the black powder he was making blew. An enormous explosion (no injuries). We seriously had the fire dept., bomb squad vans, sheriff's helicopters all over the place. No tickets given, no arrests made. Black powder is not illegal and the head of the bomb squad was a cool dude. Peace and Joy. LRL
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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So, Rock, I fail to see which californians you find so stupid. There are a good many of us, of all types. Many of us are stupid. Particularly the ones who purchase McMansions halfway out in the middle of nowhere and get surprised when little fifi gets eaten by a coyote. What the f*#k do people expect? This is an urban sprawl problem not an animal problem.
Where I grew up in Oregon we have coyotes. It's common knowledge that if you don't want your dog or cat eaten, BRING IT INSIDE at night. As for attacks on humans, YOUR dog is more likely to attack you than a coyote. There were 368,000 "dog bites" in the US in 2007. ON AVERAGE, one person per year gets bit by a coyote in CA.
My whole point is that animals who are just being themselves should not be murdered because of human ignorance or stupidity.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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May 11, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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Another way is to shoot the first coyote bold enough to stare at you when he should be running away, then hang his carcass on a fence-post. The rest of the coyotes will see this as the deterent it's meant to be, and will stay clear.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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May 11, 2008 - 08:13pm PT
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Chaz, you are only supposed to do that with crows in Californio! Lrl
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 08:21pm PT
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Well, I don't know who suggested anything about a supersoaker, that's f*#kin retarded. Almost as retarded as going on an animal kill-athon in the name of protecting "livestock."
Seriously, I got no sympathy for ranchers who bitch and moan about the "reintroduction" of wolves into an area. Pass the cost onto the consumer. I don't eat meat, so I don't care.
And, in Idaho, Oregon, Montana etc. How much of the land that these guys let cattle graze on is BLM land? A very sizable percent I'd say. Ranchers want wolves off THIER land? Fine. If they venture onto YOUR land do what you will. But don't expect my tax dollars to go towards "managing" something that does not need managing.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 09:12pm PT
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"When the time comes..." Hunting. What a f*#king joke. An outdated and cruel sport if I ever saw one. No different than c*#k or dog fighting. You're using an animal's death for entertainment. Trust me, when the apocalypse happens, nobody will asking for your help hunter guy. We'll all be eating soylent green.
And as to the poor ranchers and their losses...Only 0.11% of all "losses" in 2005 were due to predation by wolves (www.defenders.org), so forget about that line. Again, pass the cost onto the consumer. Don't start a cull.
As to being a cali-tree hugger...guilty as charged. I'm the vegetarian animal loving uber-liberal that most of America seems to love to hate.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2008 - 09:15pm PT
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Coyote Inspiration:
"Cosmic Coyote" Watercolor on Paper 20"x30"
"Full Moon Ride" Watercolor on Paper 20"x30"
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 09:19pm PT
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outstanding art, MM - wow, those are really cool - thanks for posting.
Edit - I'm w/ L - the first one especially, very sharp.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 11, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
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MM,
Beautiful works. I love that first one especially.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
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But, LEB, how common are animal attacks on people? In CA we have an average of ONE mountain lion attack per year. Compare this against the millions of person-hours people spend "in the woods." In comparison. The State has killed almost 90 mountain lions since 1995. Hunters and poachers have probably killed more.
The "self-defense" thing is BS. Your chances of being attacked and killed by a wild animal are ASTRONOMICAL. Unless you live in Alaska, you don't need to carry a gun into a wilderness setting. Period.
The only way I'd carry a gun into the boonies is to protect me from other people with guns.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
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the reasons behind wolves going on sprees where they kill, say 20 calves without eating them is because domesticated pack animals don't react to predators naturally. Thy will just get killed because they are real dumb, and the wolves don't know quite how to react to that, and unfortunately, slaughter the HELL out of them. Not an excuse for anything, but an explanation.
As for killing a coyotes and hanging its carcass to deter the rest, why not go all the way and hunt the fckers from a plane with an automatic? We could get the whole pack at once. Or we could lace meat with strychnine and lay it out all around? Who cares if it kills other animals or birds of prey? Or we could trap them and light them on fire while they are still alive? It has all been done before, and it is SICKENING. Some of the reasoning behind the slaughter of these animals was that they so ruthlessly killed their prey, beautiful animals like deer. Other reasoning is, in Alaska, is that hunting guide companies are worried about the elk and caribou populations which are game animals for these people. People are dumbasses. Period.
Wolves, (i know this was about coyotes) are not dumbasses, however. They have been observed in the wild, hunting in certain parts of their territory (which is huge) until the deer populations started to declie, then left them alone, and hunted in other parts, letting the previously hunted populations grow for a few years, then going back. They have done things like defecate on poisoned meat and traps to communicate to other wolves about the dangers.
These are magnificent creatures with every right to exist. Who cares if some rich f**ks poodle gets eaten? I don't. As for children, use your common sense. If you are in an area with coyotes, dot let toddlers run around. I have a dog that is a wolf hybrid, and I don't really leave him be around small kids. Young and weak creatures are his natural prey, and though he is very domesticated, he still has those instincts.
It is everyones responsibility to beware around predators (think millions of years of evolution) and we all have a right to be here.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 09:59pm PT
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and for the record, I do eat meat. And LEB, I love and agree with your responses,except I have hunted for food, and not because it was fun, and gave me some surplus meat. Killing an animal is not fun, at all. When I was fifteen, and we were real poor, we killed a deer in our orchard for food. It wasn't fun, but it was necessary. I don't hunt, because I move around to much to obtain a permit, and I don't want to carry a gun through a bunch of state line, plus it is just less room for my gear. But I don't want to be a vegetarian, but I know why people are. I am appalled by the meat industries and wild food, is pretty damn organic, plus they live a great life. As long as people aren't culling them. Dumb rednecks.
Where I grew up in VA there is something like a million white tailed deer, because all of their natural predators were killed off, by dumb rednecks...
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 10:03pm PT
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predators don't need to kill humanely, they aren't humans they are predators. It is a natural way of life. It is stupid to think otherwise. They don't have hunting season, cause they are trying to live, ALL YEAR AROUND. Period.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 10:05pm PT
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WTF? In the last 50 years there have only been 17 fatalities from wolves in North America, Europe, and the former USSR. Out of a population of one billion.
I'll say it again, your chances of being killed by a wolf are ASTRONOMICAL. Do they increase at some point in a predator-prey cycle? Sure, But, not enough to justify culling. Leave 'em be.
We've had two fatal shark attacks in CA in the past year. Should we start selling licenses to hunt white sharks?
edit: LEB, I am not a vegan, but know many who are. B12 does not come only from animal protien. Myth. Spirulina and fermented soy. I do enjoy me cheese. Can't seem to give it up...
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
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so true LEB. i think americans are some of the only people to go hunting with a FULL BELLY.
Allez, great point as well. Re-introduce them and leave em be.
Rok, I love this debate, I think it should keep going, but no offense... eat it. you don't know me, and just because I don't actively hunt, and I side with the predators (I am one too) doesn't mean I don't know my sh!t. It is assumptive to think otherwise.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 11, 2008 - 10:23pm PT
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great discussion, IMO.
my two cents -
you can take the most stalwart "vegetarian"
or non-hunting "idealist"
put them in a room for, maybe two or three days...
alone with a chicken, a grill, an axe and maybe a little
soy sauce and,
Presto!
You have a meat eater.
It's just that simple.
As hunger begins to turn into starvation
another part of the brain will take over.
You will awaken on the second or third morning and
see the clucking chicken, or whatever, in a whole
new light.
Food.
"In Cod We Trust"
ya, dats about right...
Philosophy is fine, especially on a full belly.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 11, 2008 - 10:58pm PT
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hahahahahahaaaaa... vicious. it is a wolf. what do you expect it to do? evolve fingers and pull a trigger? maybe they should learn to use syringes so they can numb the animal before they hamstring it. Are you serious? Vicious. Wolves are vicious killers, it is their nature, and it is perfectly natural. should they be condemned and killed because they SO VICIOUSLY kill their prey? NO. once again, no offense, but that is one of the more ignorant things I have heard in a while. It would make me laugh f I knew people didn't buy into that bullsh!t, but they do and it is not funny. "Uncontrolled and undiscriminating predator"????!!!!! Oh, I know, they should apply for hunting permits with a select number of doe tags for every season, and a select number of general buck tags, and only six rabbits or squirrels a day. That would solve everything, those pesky little unauthorized hunters. They should be ticketed and fined by the Fish and Game service.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 11, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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What the f*#k are we even arguing about here? So, what is your magic number for a good amount of wolves? They should follow the natural predator-prey cycle. Do you really feel that threatened by wolves or coyotes? Really? People get killed by animals by being stupid or extraordinarily unlucky, usually the latter.
Does it suck that every now and then a toddler gets snatched up by a predator? Sure. But that same toddler was more likely to die in a car accident or to be mauled by a domesticated dog.
I don't know what your point is dude. You seem to have a special hatred for CA city types. Anyhoo, my whole point was, at the beginning, that every time there is an animal attack (originally this about coyotes) the proper response should not be to up the number that hunters are allowed to kill. That's all I'm sayin'.
I bid you good day sir.
edit: did you really use the phrase "compassionate hunter?" Is that like Bush's "compassionate conservatism." You are killing something with a gun. It is not compassionate no matter how you look at it. And to equate wolves with humans and demonize them for leaving half a carcass is beyond rediculous.
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quartziteflight
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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All I have to say is wow...
The usda wildlife service branch kills tons of coyotes. They shoot, trap, posion etc. They also use a technique called aerial gunning. Out of a low flying plane the gunner shoots coyotes running on the ground. Usually with a 12gauge. I think coyotes are considered "varmits" in most states. So they can be shot year round w/o regulation.
Rox,
Wolves are native to a majority of the united states. I don't know where your sources are from, but they are incorrect. There may be some debate as the the specific subspecies, but wolves fill an important ecological niche.
There has never been a recorded attack on humans by a wild purebred wolf.
-------------------------------------------------
This thread does kinda make me laugh though. Coyotes are tiny animals. Shoo them off!! Go drink a beer and laugh about it. Don't be scared!
I hunt. Hunting bypasses the huge industrial ag complex that owns this country. I however don't support senslessly killing animals. Not cool with me at all.
Save tree, eat a beaver...
cheers
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 12, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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Rock, are you really that afraid of wolves? If so, I feel sorry for you man...
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 12, 2008 - 11:49am PT
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Comic Relief: Redneck Underwear
C'mon guys, let's lighten up. Poor Rocky's trying to save the whole friggin' world from all that vicious wildlife up there where he's smokin' godknowswhat...cut 'em slack, will ya?
And don't ferget 'bout them thar Jurassic Marmots, Rocky. They'll eat yer underwear right off ya...swear ta god.
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jstan
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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C'mon Lois. Repeat after me:
Kill Bambi!
Kill Bambi!
Kill Bambi!
I met an Arctic Wolf down at the pier a couple of years ago. Bar none the most majestic animal I have ever seen. The two of us were about the same size. All I could do was stand stock still and look at him. He was looking back at me just as intently. Since I am not much to see I can only guess what he was thinking. The lady with him said, "Don't worry. He is a honey and just loves people."
I resisted replying, "I can imagine he does." Even though I did not have my three tine pitchfork with me I could not help thinking he was an incredible creature.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 12, 2008 - 07:24pm PT
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I think Rockjox has read "Little Red Riding Hood" and the "Three Little Pigs" once too often.
He has still yet too prove that these animals pose any sort of significant threat to human populations.
And by prove, I mean using numbers, statistics, etc. not just irrational fear and anecdotal stories.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:04pm PT
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yeah, umm Rock? Dude? by your fear and death and maiming and someone and everyones baby is going to be dragged of by a pack of rabid wolves logic, I am surprised that you can walk down a street and not be scared that some "white-knuckled, pot smoking, homosexual terrorist isn't gonna attack you and give you the AIDS!"
the section in quotes should be read with a thick southern drawl in mind.
Seriously dude, you are living in fear. And fear is the grease in the corrupt, war machine, man. or something along those lines, hehehehehe
seriously though, WE don't need to regulate the ungulate herds, that is for predators like wolves and mountain lions. Those guys aren't the big threat out you make them out to be, unless you are traveling in their territory, what's left of it, and in that case one should except that responsibility and live with it. No pun intended.
Someone said earlier that their is no need to travel in the BC in the lower 48 and carry a gun. this is true.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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"population balance" did you know that in Virginia their is something like a million white-tailed deer? a million. the reason there is so much is because the natural predators were wiped out. that is not a balance, by any means. The hunting permits you get their are six bucks a season along with a couple of does days thrown in for good measure, and don't try to tell me that is the fish and game, "doing a good job of regulating, far better then any wolves or cougars." Just try driving around the country in VA at night during hunting season when they are all spooked out of the woods. It is like bowling.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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May 12, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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Damn never knew that about VA.
I love it when the Yosemite Shuttle stops and slows down because of a deer on the side of the road and everyone rushes to the side of the bush. "OH MY GOD WILDLIFE!" Eek.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:19pm PT
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yeah VA is pretty bad. Cougars are stating to make a come back as well as coyotes. I was lucky enough to track a cougar around the woods near a friend of mines house (his property borders the National Park) We had heard reports from the other hollow (other side of the small mountain) that something big was killing animals, so we went snooping through his woods and came across these HUGE cat prints in the snow. Was petty cool.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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May 12, 2008 - 08:34pm PT
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In point of fact, the only animal in this country you are likely to be injured by is the domestic dog.
Dog bites account for about 1/3 of homeowner liability claims. Roughly one billion dollars is paid out by the insurance industry in dog bite claims a year.
Dog bites account for 10 to 20 fatalities a year.
Dog bite injuries are the second leading cause of injury to children.
So... Get real, all you afraid of nature types! I live in a place where coyotes run rampant and I cannot recall EVER seeing a news story about a coyote attack. I am not saying it can't happen, but get some perspective on what is actually dangerous, ok?
How many of you that are deathly afraid of wild animals speed and run red lights in your autos? Or drink and drive? Hmmmm?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 12, 2008 - 08:44pm PT
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Unemployed weedheads™ are always paranoid about the wolf at the door.
Who can blame 'em?
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dirtbag
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 08:48pm PT
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Who's afraid of the big bad wolf,
Big bad wolf,
Big bad wolf?
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 12, 2008 - 09:44pm PT
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So, no sh#t, unless they increase their cranial capacity by a thousand CC's and grow apposable thumbs, wolves are not a threat to the human population in general.
Can an individual wolf or apck of wolves threaten a single human? For sure. Non one would dispute that.
What I will dispute is that the one or two attacks per year in CA (on average) do not necessitate some crisis that needs the gov. or redneck "volunteers" to solve. DON'T BE STUPID WITH PETS AND KIDS! Most attacks occur through bad luck or stupidity. Usually both.
You see, to think I hate humans. Well, I do not care for the humans that are destroying the mojave so they can live in 4000 sq. ft. McMansions and then bitching about having to share it with coyotes. I also don't have a particularly high opinion of ranchers. They don't feed me and I don't need their "food."
edit: Ya know I really don't wanto come across as callous as I'm sounding. If coyotes come into an area that has long been urbanized and start threatening toddlers, then by all means do what needs to be done. I just don't like it when homeowners who have CHOSEN to locate themselves in coyote country complain about them and expect something to be done.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 10:52pm PT
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Too funny Rokjox.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 12, 2008 - 11:08pm PT
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 12, 2008 - 11:26pm PT
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Wow, so much hate. Spending too much time in Sun Valley? CA refugees driving up home prices? Seriously, what is your REAL problem. Last time I checked, all of these states are in the same country.
And I got news for you buddy. Most californians are not actually "from" California. That is, I would bet that fewer than 30% of the people living in this state could claim to be third generation Californian.
I know how you feel dude. I grew up on the outskirts of PDX. "Thanks for visiting, now go home" was the attitude.
And, Rockjox, I still don't know waht you are trying to "say" other than you hate Californians. Hell, I hate Californians and I live here!
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 12, 2008 - 11:38pm PT
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Rocky,
I really want to apologize to you.
I thought you were just some sort of over-weight paranoid extremist who couldn't hack it in sunny California, and was spewwing his sour grapes cause he's unemployed and a redneck weedhead.
But you're right.
The wolves are dangerous.
I just talked to a friend of mine who was photographing them in Yellowstone. He was attacked by one of the big males yesterday.
He was really lucky, he said, to get away with only minor wounds.
Er...
...minor gunshot wounds. Those new wolves--Man, are they dangerous!
(Maybe you can get one like this to guard your home with...)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2008 - 11:43pm PT
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Rox, your attitude is pretty typical of the mentality that is destroying this country. Hate comes in many forms the bottom line is it is directed at yourself. Speaking hate only makes you look dumb.
Feel the love and spread it pardner.
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 13, 2008 - 12:28am PT
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Why all the hate? To generalize a state with 36,458,000 or son people, and say you hate them is a wee bit generalizing. I have never lived there, but thought about moving, be closer to the Valley! and doesn't Idaho have the largest concentration of Klan members? Not cool. At all.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 01:03am PT
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Loud and clear.
Good night, and good luck with your interview and I hope your arm heals quickly.
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Robb
Social climber
Pick Up Truck Heaven
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May 13, 2008 - 02:09am PT
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I'd like to hear the perspective of all this from someone who actually lives out in the wolf areas. Anybody here qualified? Not trolling.
Robb
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Robb
Social climber
Pick Up Truck Heaven
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May 13, 2008 - 03:19am PT
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Strenghten that which remains RJ, little else truely matters
Robb
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 13, 2008 - 09:13am PT
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Roc, sorry to hear about your problems dude, stay up. About that arm, I have broken a few, (two at once!) always minor fractures. find a removable cast or something and you should be fine. that is all the docs would do. don't let life get you down.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 13, 2008 - 09:59am PT
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RE:
" Wow, so much hate. Spending too much time in Sun Valley?"
Allez, I like your posts, and am not dogging you but it's
interesting - I'm a California native but, I don't get the "hate" thing when I read Rox rants on Cali, or anything...
BTW, Rox, sorry about your current status, thanks for continuing to post -
yeah, I was born in '57 - raised in Sonoma county 'till around 1970, then my folks moved down to San Diego...SOUTH San Diego;
Imperial Beach.
I don't get into debates about the worth/worthlessness of the state, or it's inhabitants because it's pointless:
Cali is what it is...
and it's funny as heck to read the slander :)
BTW, I wish I could move back to So. Cal right about now,
or maybe this fall but it might take longer...
There's certain intrinsic "melting pot" energies in Cali:
Long Beach is now considered the most integrated city
in the world - the Bay area has a killer vibe too, and a lot
of it has to do with (I guess) the cultural mix. But it is Los
Angeles that has - for serious creative types - a really strong magnetic pull, just does...
you wanna swim with your own kind, ya know, in water deep enough to breath in, not some stagnant little pond...
anyway, don't let me stop the show...
please, carry on :)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2008 - 11:13am PT
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Hey Roc, sorry to hear about your problems. I kind of thought there was more to your posts. Life is tuff these days with the sagging economy and making a good life for the family. Throw a broken arm into the mix and that would have anyone to the point of frustration.
Cheers
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 13, 2008 - 12:42pm PT
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God dang it Rocky,
Weren't you ever taught that pretending to be an arsehole online will not solve your problems?
Oh yeah, there's that quick high of the adrenaline rush when you think you're taking on a bunch of virtual Cali-wimps. But then, like the day following a night of drinking, you get the hang-over of depression because all you've really done is make people think you're a turd when you're not.
No one's going to feel sorry for you here, but people will certainly give you perspective on the stuff you're going through, and listen when you want to rant...just not about butchering wildlife...and undoubtedly share some good stories with you.
But Jeez man, you've got to deal honestly with what's going on and let others see you for who you are. And I suppose that's what you're doing now.
So if I helped relieve some of your anxiety by arguing with you over wolves and coyotes, well, OK...you're welcome, dammit.
But when all is said and done, I'd rather talk to you like a friend.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 13, 2008 - 02:34pm PT
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Man, I opened up this thread and lo, there is rok on again about wolves and california! Dude, we like don't need some guy from some fully backwater state telling us they don't want wolves. I like to think about their majestic presence in our wildlands while I toil in the urban grit. It makes me feel good.
p.s. If you don't like us please send back our tax money. The rural west is basically a welfare/pork project drainhole.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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Yet Cali sucks so badly that people from other states keep coming here in droves.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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I lived in the NW for many years so I'm familiar with the anti-California diatribe.
And you know what?
People who say citizens from an entire state, an entire country, etc. suck, other than kiddingly of course, are flat out-dumb. Period.
Ignorant and dumb people--without exception. Rednecks say sh#t like that.
Their opinions on such things do not matter to me at all.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 13, 2008 - 06:18pm PT
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Rok:
For future rants please note that the court you hate so much is the 9th Circuit Court of Appeal, not the "9th District."
The "9th district" includes the U.S. District Courts in several westnern states, including Idaho.
Carry on.
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L
climber
Ocean of dreams....
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May 13, 2008 - 06:27pm PT
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Hahaha! Aaaaw Rocky, you just keep at it, boy!
We all know you've got that broken arm, no job, two mortgages that you're about to lose, a wife that's packing her bags and kids who think you suck, besides that poodle phobia thing--you just go ahead and dump all over us Cali-wimps.
We're tough. We can take it. We're here to help you get it off your chest. Go ahead, tell us how much we suck again! I'm loving this! It's funnier than that motorcycle video that sportbiker posted--and that was some funny sheeeeet!
Hey Roco, don't stop! Seriously man--tell us how you really feel! We're here for ya, bro!
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dirtbag
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 06:30pm PT
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And btw, the justices on the 9th Circuit were appointed by the President and confirmed by Congress: not the state of California. There hasn't been a Californian appointing 9th Circuit justices in at least 20 years, and he thought California and Californians sucked so badly that he ditched his home state to became its governor before becoming President.
It is a FEDERAL court--not a STATE court.
Not that you'll let a few facts get in the way of your rant.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 13, 2008 - 06:33pm PT
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Yikes, who got Rok all upset? He's mostly right about Cali though.
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John Moosie
climber
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May 13, 2008 - 07:26pm PT
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DING DING DING DING DIIIIIIINNNNG !!!
Thanks Rox, I live in Cali and I just couldn't figure out why I suck. Now I know. Its because I live in Cali.
I have been wanting to move to Hawaii. Will this make me suck less? Or am I doomed? Is it like a virus? Oh man... I knew it. My folks are from Texas, I was born in Venezuela, but then we moved to Cali.
My parents screwed me over when they moved us here. Dang it.
Please oh please oh wise one, you say you lived in Cali. How did you overcome the virus?
DesperateinCalifornia.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 13, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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I always thought Texas and Florida were the most hated states. They've done way more to f*#k up this country than CA. The only reason CA sucks is because so many people live here. A certain percentage of ANY population will always suck. It is amplified here because of the size of the population.
Rockjox is wrong the predator issue, but his opinions on Californians are kinda right on...key word kinda...
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 13, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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And then there's West Virginia, which the talking heads tonight are calling the state with the "oldest and least educated" population. That sure ain't Cali.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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May 13, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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Coyote's and wolves and simple, practice the 3 s's
Just about as easy as rap bolting ;-)
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snakefoot
climber
cali
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May 13, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
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bump for the golden state crags
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originalpmac
Trad climber
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May 13, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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I love when people rant about things, acting all smart then tell us thy are going mountain biking and bouldering with a recently broken arm... genius, pure, back wood, genius.
And bring on the wolves...
in every state. Put the ranchers out of business through introducing mean old wolves, then when they have to sell, buy their land, turn it into a conservation and restoration project. Tear down the ranchers old, cozy farmhouse, then rebuild a cookie cutter mansion, fill his garage with Hummers. Populate his lands with hunting pack animals and drive around like an assh@le... see if that pisses off anyone...
hahahahahahahaaaaaa
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FullMonty
Trad climber
Originally from IN - Now living in Leadville, CO
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May 14, 2008 - 11:48pm PT
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Bump.............Till I am sober enough to comment on this topic. Right now I would probably just make a fool o myself. You guys cant wait to hear what I have to say, I know it.
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AllezAllez510
Trad climber
PDX, OR
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May 15, 2008 - 12:52am PT
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We HAVE to survive?? We HAVE to??? I got news for you honey, nobody's gettin'out of here alive.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 02:18am PT
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189 posts, and we still don't know:
1. Who the alpha wolf and alpha coyote of SuperTopo are, and which one will be top dog on June 2nd at El Cap bridge.
2. Whether the coyotes are Canadian or not.
We also haven't seen much in the way of objective facts, to support all the lurid hearsay about coyotes, not to mention wolves. The first post didn't seem all that reliable - given that the attacks were by sole animals, in semi-urban areas, it might well have been dogs that were responsible. And it is very well established indeed that dogs frequently attack humans.
It is also well established that coyotes like to dine on domestic dogs and cats. For those new to rural coyote-friendly areas, tough - if you moved in beside the airport, would you complain about the noise? Very rarely they will appear to stalk or even feign attacks on humans, and on extremely rare occasions they may attack. Usually children, or people who are by themselves.
They are akin to dogs and wolves, and a lot of their behaviour may not be what it seems.
I hope someone can provide some facts (FACTS) about coyote attacks on humans. Hard cold facts. That might enlighten this discussion.
I've had one friend killed by a grizzly, and other friends treed by one. Many people I know have had encounters with bears, both grizzlies and black, sometimes very scary - bears are curious, have lousy eyesight, and are at the top of the food chain. Bad combination. There's lots of coyotes here, especially in the city - they like the city/country interface. Lots of opportunity. There are coyotes living within 500 metres of me. Wolves are sometimes heard, rarely seen - and I've been to some very wild places, for work and mountains. They're never seen in urban, suburban or rural areas - they like it wild, as do grizzlies.
There are heaps of bears, coyotes, and wolves in this part of the world. (All big bad Canadian ones, of course - no anemic Merrycans allowed.) One or two people in B.C. a year get killed by bears. One or two a decade get killed by cougars. No one gets killed by coyotes, though there's the odd attack, usually on children, and eventually someone will die. No one gets killed by wolves.
We probably have a lot more to worry about during the drive to and from work or climbing/the mountains, lightning, ticks, and snakes than we do from the big bad coyote. Not to mention from gun nuts.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 03:12am PT
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Gaily throwing fuel on the Roxfire...
From the Wilderness Medical Society, based in Yellowstone:
Epidemiology: Bear attacks
All bears- 9 injuries, 1 death/year North America -- On the increase (2005 record)
Brown bears- 100 years North America - 165 attacks
Black bears- 86 years National/State parks - 500 attacks
Polar bears- 85 years Alaska- 1 attack in 20 years Canada- 20 attacks
Epidemiology: Cougar attacks
In US, over 70 attacks since 1970
>68% victims are children
Increasing frequency, increasing fatality rate
Epidemiology: Coyote, wolf attacks
Coyote: increasing population/attacks in US
Wolf: Rare attacks, ? 1 death in the wild in North America; significant # deaths in India
Wolf: Siberia- 112 deaths/year in 1800’s
[Edit: I wonder about the reliability of the 19th century Siberian numbers, if not those from India. Lots of wild dogs in India.]
Epidemiology: Bison attacks
Most attacks occur in Yellowstone (largest free-ranging herd)
Average 3 attacks/year; 4 fatalities since 1975
Epidemiology: Moose, elk, deer attacks
Anecdotal reports, though frequent
Hunters, hikers, roadside tourists may approach too closely
http://www.worldcongress2007.org.uk/images/Wild%20Animal%20Attacks%20Syllabus%20-%20Luanne%20Freer.pdf
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 03:16am PT
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From CNN - http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/25/coolsc.critters.attacks/:
Animal enemies: Myth vs. reality
By Marsha Walton (CNN Sci-Tech)
Thursday, September 26, 2002 Posted: 8:57 AM EDT (1257 GMT)
SPECIAL REPORT
(CNN) -- Forget the lions, tigers, and bears. Toss out the sharks, the alligators, even the poisonous snakes.
When it comes to humans' worst enemies in the animal world, don't think big. Or sharp teeth. Or even mean.
Hollywood and fairy tales may demonize the shark and the big bad wolf. But the animal that claims far more lives in the United States is one that many people urge their kids to walk up and touch at the petting zoo.
Yes, Bambi.
It's not because they attack, but because hapless deer wander onto roadways that they and other creatures claimed 83 human lives in car crashes in 2000, according to the U. S. Department of Transportation.
Tens of thousands of deer are killed when hit by cars. Erie Insurance, which keeps detailed records on car vs. deer claims, says the number of claims increased from 23,000 in 2000 to 26,000 in 2001, up 16 percent. That company alone spent $50 million on car/deer accidents in 2001, the vast majority of their claims in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia.
In spite of lots of hyped movies and media coverage, the Florida Museum of Natural History reports that sharks killed five humans in 2001, down from 12 in 2000. In the United States, alligators and crocodiles have killed on average one person a year for the past 30 years, says the University of Florida.
While the big bad wolf may be the villain of fairy tales, this animal doesn't even cause a blip on the radar screen when it comes to animal/human conflict. Brad DeVries of the Defenders of Wildlife says there are no records of wolves killing a person in the United States.
But the wolf's "tamer" cousin does not always live up to the motto of man's best friend. From 1979 to 1996, dog bites killed 340 people in the United States, with most of the fatalities involving children 14 and younger, according to the Centers for Disease Control. While Rottweilers and pit bulls were responsible for more than half of those deaths, experts stress that it's not fair to condemn a breed for what's usually the sin of its owner. Dozens of breeds, from dachshunds to Yorkshire terriers have caused deaths.
"Quite likely the kind of person who was an irresponsible owner of a Doberman in the '70s is the same kind of person who is an irresponsible owner of a Rottweiler in the '90s or a Presa Canario in 2002," said Dr. Randall Lockwood, an animal behavior expert.
Most dog attacks, Lockwood says, are predictable and preventable, the result of an owner's failure to properly raise, train, socialize and supervise an animal. That's often the result of the wrong dog for the wrong reason.
"Getting a dog as an offensive or defensive weapon is a lot like having a loaded handgun in the nightstand," said Lockwood. Usually a child, a family member, or a neighbor is the one who gets harmed. In his studies of more than 300 fatal dog attacks over the past 25 years, he says just one was a burglar.
Although grizzlies and black bears are ferocious, the actual number of human deaths from bear attacks is a tame one.
Black bears and grizzly bears killed 133 people in North America in the past century, six more in 2000 and 2001, according to Steve Herrero with the University of Calgary. But each year across the United States and Canada, there are millions of uneventful human/bear encounters.
The current population is about 700,000 black bears, and 60,000 grizzlies on the continent, says Herrero, professor emeritus of environmental science. He's spent more than 10,000 hours studying grizzlies, and has written and produced books and videos on bears and keeping safe if you confront one.
He says the usual reason for injury or death is a too-sudden encounter, when the bear perceives the human to be too close. Usually, he says, in those defensive situations the bear simply growls and runs.
Surviving a confrontation can be accomplished, says Herrero. Sometimes you can just "talk it down" like you would an enraged, out of control human being. If that's not working, there are effective cayenne pepper bear sprays on the market now that give the human enough time to escape. Playing dead can work, he says, but if you have no other choice, and if the bear is being offensive, just attack the bear all you can, with a stick, a stone, a knife, or smack it on the nose. Usually the encounters last two to 10 seconds, but in that time they can inflict terrible injuries, says Herrero.
The number of bear attacks in North America has gone up in the past 50 years, mostly, says Herrero, because more and more people are working, camping, and hiking in what was their turf for many years. Ten people were killed in the 1950s, 14 in the '60s, 22 in the '70s, 27 in the '80s, 29 in the '90s
The critter that humans should fear the most usually is dismissed as a mere annoyance, a pest at a picnic or the pool. But the disease-carrying mosquito, delivering encephalitis, the West Nile virus, malaria, and Dengue fever, makes it far and away the deadliest beast in the animal world. The World Health Organization says mosquitos cause more than 2 million deaths a year worldwide. Another insect, the tsetse fly, kills another 66,000 annually.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2008 - 03:23am PT
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The one thing the articles I just posted omitted was "attacks" by snakes. So don't forget that. And ticks - I gather people with Lyme disease sometimes feel like they're dying.
It looks like LEB is right, though - it's those darn deer that are causing all the problems.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 15, 2008 - 09:49am PT
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"THE WOLVES ARE COMING! THE WOLVES ARE COMING!"
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 15, 2008 - 11:19am PT
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MH
I'm not sure who the alpha male is, maybe Coz or Caylor.
The coyote, ?????
But the alpha cat is definitely L. Don't mess with her, you'd be cat chow!!!!
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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May 15, 2008 - 11:27am PT
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"I think my dog magnus the red has taken out three so far this year.Tana has only gotten one.Natural selection at it's best"
Wow, that's really impressive Bob. I wouldn't quite call letting your dogs kill wildlife "natural selection". Interesting choice of words. Did you relocate from the backwoods of Arkansas to Vail or what?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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This morning I saw a coyote hop a 6' fence like it was nothing.
I spotted him in the yard on my coffee walk. I followed him back and forth for a few minutes, hoping to figure out how he got in. He cornered himself a couple times, probably because his old under-fence holes have been filled in in my critter-proofing efforts.
So after running around trying to ditch me, he hops a six-foot chain-link fence! The first thing that hit the fence were his back feet, right on the cross-bar at the top of the fence.
So I guess they can get in the yard whenever they feel like it.
My neighbor volunteered to shoot it - he has a better shot than I do as there's a canyon between our houses and he sees that half of my yard better than I can - and I said that sounded like a good idea.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Sure it was a yote? A 6' fence is pretty damn high for a standard sized coyote.. Some of them around here are interbreeding with dogs resulting in these almost wolf-sized wild dogs...
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couchmaster
climber
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One has cleaned up the Squirrel population at the park by my house. I live very inner, inner city. Imagine 3 huge 100 year old Black Walnut trees which are now almost squirrel free.
The other day we had one walk by the window in the business park here. Looking for small furry critters. Use to be a full time flock of 30 geese around until the yote patrol showed up.
Locker style edit, walked down to the Fed x package drop off right now and the Geese ARE BACK!! 24 by count. It's been months. WOOT! Goose sh#t everywhere.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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6' should be doable for a Coyote...even higher.
If his ears are up, will you shoot?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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I hang out with our local coyotes every chance I get. Never felt remotely threatened.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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I live twenty blocks from city hall in downtown Portland. There are three resident coyotes in the urban neighborhood that bed down in the nearby cemetery. Animal control says if they remove them even more will come in.
The 60lb chow mix I walk wants to make friends but I discourage it. The Coyotes seem indifferent.
The only downside is that possums and cats go missing on a regular basis. Idiot cat owners post signs on the poles asking you to give them a call if you see Fluffy.
Fluffy ain't comin' back.
Then, of course, was this photo taken on the Max train at the airport.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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I used to see those signs in my previous community (local hills)...it took me a while to figure out that they weren't actually looking for their lost pet, but instead helping their children look for their lost pet [re: giving them hope for a while].
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Coyote-wolf hybrids are increasing in Canada. One human fatality so far.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=coywolf+attacks+canada+fatality
Google "coywolf attacks" for many reports.
This is interesting in that, I would think that if a wolf mixed with a coyote that they would actually become more shy (aka coy). A wolf is generally the more aggressive animal.
This statement seems to support mine:
Coywolf attacks on people are extremely rare. Like its coyote cousin, coywolves are usually wary of humans and avoid people whenever possible. Consider that dogs kill 15 to 20 people each year in the U.S., and that there have only been two fatal coyote attacks in North America in the past 500 years.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Thanks for the coyote roller reference. It's the first I've heard of them. It beats having an electric fence if coyotes are the only problem.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Heyzeus,
That coyote roller is perfect. Something like that is exactly what I thought would work when I saw the coyote perch for a moment on the top of the fence. All four of his feet were on the cross-brace at once, I would have loved to have seen it rotate on him.
My problem is I have 1,880 feet of fence I want to keep the coyotes on the other side of. I'm going to have to find a more economical fix - like homemade.
I am going to put up a small pen for the goat to overnight in, now that I know the coyotes can roam the yard at will. I'll look into coyote rollers for that.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
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Good luck with coyotes. That's the smartest living thing.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Chaz, that's a lot of fence. I was surprised at how expensive the rollers were myself. Here's a homemade version that might be worth a try, won't look as clean but way cheaper, scroll half way down the page: http://www.huskycamp.com/security.htm
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I have a plan, Heyzeus.
I'm going to put those extensions you see supporting strung barbed wire atop chain link fences on my existing posts. Then I'll simply bridge between them a length of galvanized pipe, on a loose "axle", so they rotate when something attempts to climb over.
I know what you're thinking; "Galvanized pipe? Isn't that expensive?"
It would be, if you had to go out and buy it.
But I have a boatload of it, thanks to the people who lived here before me. The couple who lived here fifty or sixty years ago ( dated by tree rings ) were botanists. They traveled the world, and brought home at least one of every plant they saw, and planted them all here. They had set up an elaborate system of irrigation to water all this, using a mile or more of iron pipe. Pipe that is not just useless to me, but a lot of it is just in the way, and needs to be re-purposed. DIY Coyote Rollers sounds like a good use for all that pipe!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Hey, Chaz, how about stringing a wire along the top of yer fence and putting
1/2" PVC pipe on the wire? Seems like it would work just as well at a fraction
of the price. The only problem would be getting the wire taut enough.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Wolves have taken dogs from yards at the edge of this village, and once from a porch. Couple of years ago an old dog was simply killed by a wolf and left. There are coyotes around - plenty of tracks, and you see them on the road occasionally - but they remain quite elusive. Of course this would marginally qualify as a wilderness situation, as Atlin is a "town" of 450, and the nearest "city" is Whitehorse, about 25,000, about 100 miles away.
None of the coyotes I've seen seem to have hybridized.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Ears Up - Don't Shoot!
Their ancestors where here long before us....
I like the rollers idea.
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