Discussion Topic |
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| Messages 1 - 59 of total 59 in this topic |
Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 1, 2008 - 08:22pm PT
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I am busy. Will someone cliff notes that thread for me and the rest of us too lazy to read it all. Thanks for the public service.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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If you took Russ's summary early in that thread and added it to Jody's, threw in a couple filler sentences for cohesion, you'd be pretty close.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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I think Russ's post was #600. His (Russ's) post is a bit less biased than Jody's, IMO. Pretty good recap. I stoped reading around post #450.
Cheers,
Prod.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Oh, was that for real? I thought it was some crazy fuked-up sh#t on the internet like the Nigerian con artist and the shrimp boat captain.
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dirtbag
climber
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I also absconded a nudie pic from the "This is a climber's forum" thread and posted it on the rap bolt thread.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Jody,
I think there is another side of the issue that you're not looking at. You make good points to support your side, but there are also arguments to the contrary and proponents of the those arguments aren't necessarily self-righteous. In fact, some of them are the humblest, strongest climbers around. The truth is that rock is a limited resource. We have to talk intelligently about the issues and try to understand the other side so we can settle on a compromise. Label-dropping isn't conducive to that.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Rock is a limited resource?
Limited by...the vacuum of space I guess.
You know where it's cool to dictate style and ethics in regard to rock climbing?
Private property.
Works really well, everybody does what you tell them.
Other than that, you're a wanna be fascist.
EDIT: Trad d00d, only the top of this post was in reference to you..the bottom is not. Sorry for any confusion.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Boarder,
Yup, you got me. I'm a fascist.
Whatever dude. If advocating for compromise makes me a fascist, then I guess I am.
I just think the rap-bolters and the run-outers can each have their fun at their own crags.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2008 - 10:58pm PT
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So, somebody bolted somebody elses line and some people didnt like it. Got it.
That picture sounds like me though!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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no. they bolted their own route. the argument is they shoulda left it alone so some future unknown hardman could make it 5.13 r/x a0.
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couchmaster
climber
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Shall we call this round 2?
ding ding ding ding
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
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Roger that. Has there been any violence yet and what's the utube link for it?
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2008 - 11:25pm PT
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not round 2. This thread is supposed to be about that thread, not a continuation of it. Lets keep the content here purely superficial.
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Michelle,
The cliff note: That thread is just another tired trad tale. In this case it is people telling other people how to climb.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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heh
recap: the thread has touched the below arguments from various perspectives...
argument from history
argument from ethics
argument from authority (or lack thereof)
argument from adventure preservation
argument from resources limited
argument from style
argument from safety
argument from violence or threats thereof
missed any?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Munge, you missed the argument for perception of reality.
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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Hey TiredTradTailsBetweenYourLeg's,It's more of a story about how one should not climb the Proud SFHD. Good guy's on both side's of the coin,alot of good thought's and some B.S. name calling..With 2000 + post's the point has been made that if you drop in from the Top of the Wall's in Yosemite, your going to get some grief..Both Sean and Coz should have quit while they were ahead.... Jacko
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DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
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Two guys put up a route on the S Face of Half Dome by rap bolting
the upper thousand feet. Regardless of all the debate, the fact is
that it was rap-bolted. Obviously, a lot of climbers were not too
thrilled about this style.
Each person is entitled to his/her own opinion about rap bolting Half Dome.
Personally, I regard such tactics as very poor style. I sympathize with Coz's sentiments and fully support his attempt to stand up
to vociferous masses on this site (who support and condone this
rap-bolted construction job). It is good to see that a few
climbers like Coz have the backbone to stand up and condemn the
construction job.
Most amazing is the fact that one of the rap bolters is the
formerly venerated icon of clean climbing, Doug Robinson.
It's just a matter of time before people decide to totally rap
bolt 2000 - 3000 foot sport climbs on other parts of Half Dome
and El Cap.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Christian, American, heterosexual, pro-gun conservative gets angry with others being "holier than thou"
Wow, there's a mind blower.
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salad
climber
Escondido
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well lets see... my webster's copyrighted in 1984 gives the following definition for RAPE:
1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force.
3. ABUSIVE OR IMPROPER TREATMENT:VIOLATION.
dictionary.com also adds:
7. to plunder (a place); despoil.
8. to seize, take, or carry off by force.
coz used the word rapist correctly.
ethics police... moral police... whats the difference?
This post brought to you by a
non-christian
american
heterosexual
pro-gun
non-rap bolting
conservative
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Sanjan
Boulder climber
CA
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bad idea . at least before it was confined to just one thread . now the whole forum is being infected .
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The following routes exist on the South Face of Half Dome:
Call of the Wild 5.10d 1975 Peter Haan John Bragg
Cataclysmic Mega Sheer 5.11d A2 2000 Eric Kohl Bryan Law
Half Dome, South Face Route 5.8 A4 1970 Warren Harding Galen Rowell
Happy Gully 5.8 1966 Joe Faint Warren Harding Chris Fredericks
Karma 5.11d A0 1986 Dave Schultz Ken Yager Jim Campbell
Lost Again 5.10 A3+ 1992 Eric Kohl
Southern Belle 5.12d R 1967 Walt Shipley Dave Schultz 1988 Dave Schultz Scott Cosgrove
The Southwest Face also has some characteristic climbs:
Autobahn 5.11d R 1985 Charles Cole Rusty Reno John Middendorf
The Deuceldike 5.9 R 1985 Charles Cole Rusty Reno John Middendorf
Dome Polishers 5.9 R 1988 Tucker Tech Steve Ortener
Dreamscape 5.11d 1988 Scott Burke Tory Elbrader Jeff Folett
Eye in the Sky 5.10b R 1985 Mark Spencer Shirley Spencer Dan Abbot
The Fast Lane 5.11d R 1986 Dimitri Barton Scott Burke Chris Hash
Labor of Love 5.10b R 1991 Walt Shipley Stephanie McCormack
On the Edge 5.11b R 1975 Dale Bard George Meyers
Salathe Route 5.10b R 1946 John Salathe Anton Nelson 1964 Frank Sacherer Bob Kamps Andy Lichtman
Snake Dance 5.9+ R 1973 Claude Fiddler Bob Jones
Snake Dike 5.7 R 1965 Eric Beck Jim Bridwell Chris Fredericks
Snake in the Grass 5.10b 1989 Tucker Tech Steve Ortener
Sean Jones, who has been active in putting up routes for over a decade in Yosemite Valley did a new route on the South Face:
Growing Up 5.13a, A0 2008 Sean Jones et alia
There are several characteristics of these lines: the majority have an "R" rating (some would say that "X" might be more appropriate). There are not a lot of routes given the huge expanse of rock on the south side of Half Dome, The climbs tend to be difficult even by current climbing standards (though the technical grade might be misleadingly low compared to the most difficult grades climbed) the routes are seldom done (many do not have a second ascent).
Sean had a number of ideas for climbs on this feature, free the South Face Route which resisted, put up a new route with protection that would allow subsequent parties to climb the route without large runouts characteristic of most of the other routes in this area.
Climbs on this feature were put up in mixed styles for a number of reasons. Some routes are aid routes, some were originally aid routes that went free, some free routes required bits of aid, some were free. The older routes were done ground up. It is not clear how the bolts were drilled on all of the routes, many of the routes were drilled on stance.
Sean Jones chose a line along a prominent arch feature between the South Face Route and Lost Again. 15 pitches into the route a blank section of rock was encountered. Sean felt that he wanted to put a route to the top of Half Dome. Looking at some possible lines, the team decided to be sure that the potential line spied from below would actually go to the top. The team ascended Half Dome by the Cables and rapped into the climb. They discovered their original line above the blank section would not go, but found a line that would. They then rap-bolted the upper 6 pitches of the route.
Scott Cosgrove, who was on the FFA of Southern Belle read the R&I article by Doug Robinson and initiated the now famous thread Doug Robinson, Sean Jones, rap bolt South face of Half Dome! which previous to this thread had gotten no serious attention on SuperTopo. One notable fact about this thread is that members of the FA teams from 6 of the existing 19 routes (6 of 7 South face routes!) have contributed their view of the Growing Up climb (although there may be more, I have to go back and look more carefully).
There were many questions asked regarding the intention and deliberation of the Growing Up team (three of whom posted in the thread).
There is no resolution to the differences in choice of styles, Growing Up is a departure from the other routes on the wall, which was the intent in its creation. The FA team is well known and a part of the Valley climbing scene, they made a set of choices for this route and they stick by their choices. Other experienced FA teams who put up routes on the same feature disagree that this choice of style was appropriate for climbs on this feature.
In the end, subsequent ascent parties will have to report in, on all these climbs, and tell us what makes sense and what doesn't.
In all likelihood, I will likely never climb Growing Up, I think few who posted to the thread, and fewer still who read the thread, would do any of these climbs with the exception of Snake Dike. I would hope to do 2 others on this feature in my career.
Most notable was the rather civil tone the discussion of the actual route. While many opinions were expressed regarding the route, in the end it will be the people who climb on this feature that will have the most valuable opinion regarding the climbs. The rest of us have really very little to add.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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The way I see it, some moron with a chisel is going to rap down and erase Harding's route by mistake.
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jstan
climber
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Much of the discussion has centered on "better" forms of climbing which:
1. is not the problem
2. is not something that actually has an answer.
Different people prefer different things. The real difficulty is with our now high density of climbers people are increasingly thrown into much closer contact than they were before, and the ideal of everyone being able to do as they please IN ALL RESPECTS
Is breaking down.
Thirty years ago in the East where density became high earlier the use of pitons became a problem and we had to go through a similar "personal interaction problem", which we successfully did. As a result, to my knowledge, we do not there have climbs that are frankly nothing more than climbing on piton scars.
In a purely practical sense, the use of bolts keeps coming up because their use increases further our personal interactions. If no climber climbs in such a way as actually to change the rock, others must then use, we all can continue pretty much doing as we please. I may think someone is doing something weird, but as long as they are not changing OUR rock and I don’t have to help carry their body out – it is simply none of my business.
We hear a lot about needing bolts to create classic climbs and in some cases this is quite accurate. Once we do that however we are on a slippery slope that may cause us to pay a very high price for those climbs. In a word –it is a tradeoff. We risk thirty year long discussions, fist fights, and yes even god help us, threads with 100,000 posts.
I suppose some people may actually enjoy such activities even more than the climbing, so for them this is a godsend. I think it is a minority however.
Do I think we will reach a resolution?
No,
The resolution will be reached via a much more painful avenue.
Which is a shame because the challenge is in fact a stroke of great luck for us. How so? If you read a little on ST you quickly see that people have been most enriched not by the climbs they have done but by the friends they have made and the adventures they have gone through together. ST literally drips with that feeling. Indeed when you talk to people who achieved what they did in going through the piton problem you see their faces soften. The solving of that problem, not the climbing, has become a wonderful memory.
The biggest adventure of all.
So sad that you will miss that.
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2008 - 08:22am PT
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I think an A1 bolt ladder ground up ( or top down, better yet) would be cool. Maybe call it "Armygirl's Really Cool A1 Bolt Ladder Climb Up Half Dome." You in Jody? We could bring weapons and shoot at things too.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Yes, a really cool A1 ladder built on rappel would be the coolest, and make the biggest statement, now that it's acceptable.
Quality bolts, last forever, available to more people.
I'll clip it, since I can't do 5.13.
Git 'er done!!
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
DC Area (it's as bad as you've heard)
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"heh
recap: the thread has touched the below arguments from various perspectives...
argument from history
argument from ethics
argument from authority (or lack thereof)
argument from adventure preservation
argument from resources limited
argument from style
argument from safety
argument from violence or threats thereof
missed any?"
Yeah: "Argument for the sake of arguing due to insecurity/lack of a life"
I'm all for stylistic/ethical debates, but that thread degenerated into mudslinging and ego stroking about 1600 posts ago. Once that happens forget it.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Ed & Jstan
Nice comments. In fact the best in this post.
Anyone not familiar with the original SFHD should
read all 2000+ comments to understand the issue, whether
they agree or not.
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jstan
climber
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Actually there is another option. But they cannot do it without first obtaining a general and strong feeling that they should do it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The huge thread isn't getting any more posts but now this one is popular.
Funny, ya'll are rapping in the discussion instead of slogging up the beast from the beginning!
Ok knott actually, but good job with the balanced recap Ed.
Looks like Jody is Pro-Choice on rap-bolting versus Ground up!
I knew you'd be back bro. Howz it?
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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recap
Doug and Jones rapped down the dome
and drilled a pile of bolts
Coz found out and broke his crown
and posts came tumbling after
Peace
Karl
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Recap: delete every post but the original question and Ed's response, lock this thing and sticky it to the top of the forum.
Seriously.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Another recap version:
Yosemite, the world's premier big wall climbing area, gets its first "rap-bolted" big wall by a Sean Jones and a team of others, a 2000 foot new route on the back side of the famous Half Dome.
Although the new route is established using extensive "aid", including the installation of safety bolts from ropes anchored to the summit of Half Dome, approximately 95% of the climb is eventually climbed "free" by Sean.
The "top-down" climbing style is defended and promoted by Sean's team member Doug Robinson, a veritable icon of American rock climbing and early advocate of the clean climbing revolution of the 70's.
Led by Scott Cosgrove, a leading climber of the 1980s (the 'Golden Age' of bold climbing), arguments against the "top-down" style of establishing climbs, having all but disappeared from public discourse, are revived in favor of re-establishing "ground-up" rules for climbing in Yosemite.
The Yosemite climbing sage, Werner Braun, reminds us that such quarrel and strife are inevitable in the age of the Kali Yuga, and therefore resistance is futile.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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To add to the Deuce wrapup:
The SFHD fever has even infected some non climbers. Misguided rage has floated their carcasses to the surface of the ST punchbowl, and has even forced a squeaky clean Bible thumper to sh#t can his Protect and Serve credo, holster his star, and then kick some real ass (if needed) on the choppers/Satanists that are calling for the routes removal. Most threats of violence are signed off with "Peace".
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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All that, and LEB is watching the thread avidly, hoping at some point to divert her boys' energy to something more constructive, such as her apple-grafting efforts. And hoping that she won't get stomped on for her trouble.
It was also established that those contributing to and watching the thread have many things in common. They all think that Yosemite, and Half Dome, are special places. They all like climbing. They all like talking about climbing. And they really like ganging up on Andrew Bisharat. :-)
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I think the only way to get a peaceful resolution and mutual respect is for the GU team to climb Southern Bell, and Coz and bro's to climb GU.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Was it really necessary to split the legendary SFHD discussion into two threads?
Just because you didn't read the thread doesn't mean that others haven't been following it closely.
You could have posted your recap request there.
Boo!
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Coz,
"Jody,
I have a mantra for you
"easy their angry bear"
say it over and over and breath."
If you would have followed your own advice to Jody, this thread and the original would have never happened. Just my observation.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Hey, wait a minute......did I just side with Jody....Damn !!
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L
climber
The salty ocean blue and deep
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HK,
In Michelle's defense, certain posters to the original slug-fest were going for milestone posts, self-aggrandizement, hyperbolistic comparisons, and generally contributed nothing to the debate over ground up vs. top down.
I did read every post and follow the entire thing, despite some incredibly inane comments...such a waste of eyesight and time.
Doug and Sean, JStan, Bob, occasionally Joe, and two or three others contributed sound, non-attacking dialogue...out of some ridiculous number of posts. Can you really blame a smart gal like Michelle for wanting a distillation?
My only gripe with her is for prolonging this cheesy soap opera...and spreading it to another channel.
PLEASE CEASE AND DESIST. THANK YOU.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I haven't read any of this, but i can see it's winding down and since i haven't chimed in yet i just thought i'd say "hey!" to all my pals and maybe snag the last post. oh, SNAP!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Sorry Laura and BVB, but my .02 is coming.
I agree with Jody that "rape" is way too strong of accusation for the method and style of our heroes/anti-heroes on Growing Up.
Placing bolts in rock? The central issue is whether their placement can be rationalized at all. Whether they are placed on lead or en rappel is a peripheral issue. Does placing a bolt from a stance (or hook), on lead, sanctify its intrusion into the rock? If so, are bolts placed en rappell, therefore unholy ?
The grandest of ST threads, with both thoughtful and obnoxius, insightful with prejudicial, charitable and hostile posts; is it merely about an issue peripheral to the ethics of placing bolts in a natural rock formation? I don't think so. Is it really about "style"?
I'm not sure when pride and competition got a stranglehold on the climbing world. But hundreds of posts on the War of Roses thread are testament of why many of us climb......."I had to endure umpteen kilogroans of discomfort.......had to put forth a thousand megagrowls of effort.....and was possesed by two thousand demons of horror.....therefore anyone putting up a route of similar magnitude MUST experience the same or greater opposition or their climb has no credibility."
How do we integrate our personal struggle into even playing field so we may compare ourselves to others who aspire to similar exertion and striving?
My suggestion? Lets invent a confined area and call it a stadium. We can put down an artificial meadow within its confines. Let's dip into Uncle Wally's chalkbag and divide
the meadow into a measured grid of sacred toil and veneration, blessed by praying evangelists, honored by anthem singing celebrities and blessed by half naked marching women. We'll have opposing factions called good elitists and bad elitists, (or Lancasters and Yorks if you prefer) but beware, the bad guys will think the good guys are the bad guys. Whichever side we pick, we'll rail on about cheating, unfair advantage, trickery, bad style, stealing, disrespect etc.
We can hire impartial men and call them referees to keep the struggle and mayhem within the confines of Christian decency. Then we'll hire armed police to protect the referees.
We can dispense with drill and bolt and use inflatable objects called balls. Whatever rules or ethics, hoops or goalposts we decide on, the possesion of the aformentioned BALLS will be the central defining criteria for personal credibility. This grand contest, and strife against our fellows should take place within a descrete period of time, preferably called quarters, with options for double overtimes and even "sudden death" (no time for your life to flash before you while you're falling off a silly mountain). Yes, there must be fighting and bloodletting but after the last knee goes down we can all hug, clasp hands, give thanks we're Americans and not those nasty, vile European soccer fans.
Sound like fun and glory? Then we'll only have to go to the mountains for want of adventure and recreation.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Footnote for Jody
Some on ST believe Mr Langford is not a serious climber. Jody keeps company with John Gill, Peter Croft, K. Kline, Mr Knott and other very talented climbers but posts modestly about his own abilities. Jody has climbed 5.10C and that isn't pedestrian in my view.
Jody's father was a pioneer first ascentionist in the mid 20th century and Jody grew up climbing. He is still active in the sport.
On a forum in which 5.14 virtuosos to 5.4 weekenders to casual light scramblers offer their opinions on every climbing issue, I believe Jody is fully vested
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Michelle = Jennie = Jody?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Who the hell is Michelle?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Michelle = Mimi pretending to be Jody
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2008 - 09:08pm PT
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Thanks d4.
Was actually thinking of starting up a third thread on this topic too.
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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YOSEMITE MAINTENACE
By Art Ticcold
Associated Press
Yosemite, CA. A citizens group, The Rescue Choppers, announced today an ambitious three-phase plan to cleanup unneeded climbing bolts in Yosemite National Park. In the first phase they plan to hike up the Yosemite Falls Trail and rappel down to remove an unneeded anachronistic bolt on the first pitch of a climb called “Serenity”. Rappelling is also known in climber parlance as rapping. The second phase is much more difficult. The skilled team will climb the strenuous Gunsight Gulley before rapping in to a climb called “Central Pillar Of Frenzy” to remove approximately twenty bolts that were installed over the course of twenty five years by groups of vandals. Group spokesman, Bhongo, says the climb had deteriorated badly since a violent confrontation in 1988 between two gangs; the Noobs and the Turons, both groups which tried to take over the Park around that time. Bhongo, who will be directing the work from the valley floor, is best know for his three great published works, A History of Transcendental Medication, an overview of microbiology, Delayed Decay, molds and fungus on tents, as well as his masterwork on the technical aspects of Band-Aid climbing, Pitch For Life. The third even more difficult phase will be to climb the heinous East Ledges to the top of El Capitan. (The word heinous is often confused with the word sketchy but the two words are an example of convergent evolution and are quite distinct.) From the top of the El Capitan formation they plan to rap down the “Salathe” climbing route and remove the extraneous bolts. It is not clear where all the extra bolts came from but the leading theory is that a species of bird, the rock chicken, placed most of them during nesting over the course of thirty seasons.
A final phase four is planned for next year when some bird dropping will be scrubbed on a climb called “Growing Up”.
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Jacko
Trad climber
Grass Valley Ca.
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Hey Cracko,get off of Coz's back, or I will come down there and beat you like the Family Dog.Also, when did Jody turn into such a BadAss..Wow, say Hi to Buffy and Mr. French for me.. Jacko
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Russ, would you hit her?
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2008 - 11:31pm PT
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Michelle = Michelle (aka armygirl lately), a non-hard climber currently at the Army's combat medic school. The closest she's ever been to Russ is a Fish booze muffler acquired from a friend (and for some absurd reason, said muffler is here with me).
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Well, at least that's settled. Good luck with your studies!
The 'Hit' part was pursuant to a kind of inside joke, too complicated to go into here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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complicated, hmmmmm
see you in the morning, bring your DNA evidence kit
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Michelle
Trad climber
Fort Sam
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2008 - 01:06am PT
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no, really, what have you been drinking radical?
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Dynabol or Winstrol from the looks of that pic.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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haha, nice Riley.
myspace style self portraits are the rage right now, it's all good until you meet the perpetrator IRL and you're like, "whoa, I thought you were a chick".
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Festus
Social climber
Enron by the Sea
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Left to right: John Gill, Jody, Jody's dad, Jennie and Michelle--mid 20th century in the Tetons.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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Don't forget Mrs. Beasley (would she be the FISH in this case?).
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