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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Climbing is a tribal culture. Think of bolt chopping as counting coup.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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hanging out with some Europeans I've found it interesting how some of them are mentally tied to the organization and structure provided by the alpine clubs which seams to be much more prolific over there. seamed kinda of an odd mindset for a climber to have.
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Chewbongka
climber
लघिमा
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Start rap bolting in the Gunks today, then get back to us on this "climbing has no rules" bullshi!.
Or are you all talk and no action?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2008 - 10:17am PT
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Gunks has rules - set by the land owners.
Oh, yeah. And P2 of Arrow was put up exactly like that.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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This idea will go nowhere fast, like trying to herd a bunch of cats.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2008 - 11:01am PT
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I guess radical has the keys to the medicine locker.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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TiG - you are trying to frame this issue in terms of "the individual" vs. "the community", a theme that runs through a lot of your contrarian rhetoric on the ST Forum. Contrarian thinking plays an important role in debate and discussions, as a rhetorical technique it works well with US audiences because of the proclivity to support the apparent "underdog," a strong archetype of US story telling which probably dates back to the Revolutionary War where legend has it that a band of farmers ("The Colonials") overthrew a world power (Britain).
Of course, contrarians have no more legitimacy than anyone else, you have to earn you points by argument arraying facts and constructing logic.
Natural resources, and I will posit that the cliffs of Yosemite National Park are such an example, are treated as a common, that is, something that is not owned by anyone, and stewarded by the state (in this case, the U.S. Gov't by way of the NPS). In this construction consider the essay by Garrett Hardin: "The Tragedy of the Commons", Science 162 1243 (1968) (since you might not have access to Science online, you can find the article here). Essentially the argument goes that unrestricted demand for finite natural resources leads to over-exploitation of that resource. An example is the Grand Banks fishing grounds off your side of the country, and the apparent collapse of the Salmon fishery off my side... essentially these fishing grounds where fished out of existence because they were a "commons" and the fishing was essentially unrestricted.
Russ threw in an idea on the Growing Up which most people didn't believe or choose to ignore: that the number of lines on the SFHD were few. Even Doug Robinson states that they searched for some weakness and found none. The point is the number of climbable lines is limited.
Now this may sound a bit trite, as the style in which a climb is done may seem to matter little to most climbers visiting Yosemite, there are a group of climbers who author climbs and who provide a standard, or sorts, to climbing. They don't do this through a set of rules, they do this by making the climb. It has been known in the Valley from the "Golden Age" that you could force your way up anything, get out the bolt kit and drill your way to the top. This was not considered acceptable style simply because it was also realized that as climbing developed there would be climbers with the technique and ability to climb the proposed lines in a better style.
The ideal style being one of minimal alteration of the route. Bolts are an alteration, at least for the purpose of climbing.
The alteration, in the case of bolting, is not irreversible. The bolts can be removed and the route "restored" to near its original state. I'm not advocating this, I'm just stating fact. In it's purest form this ideal would have us not bolt anything. In fact, that style of climbing was exemplified by Bachar, and others, in the late 70's early 80's with bold on-sight-solos of lines in Tuolumne Meadows. These lines are controversial today because some in the community would have them bolted so that they could enjoy them. Seems a strange turn of events, and the Vietnam War error logic, "we had to destroy the route in order to save it," oddly operative here.
The point is that route lines are a limited resource, and that the number of climbers is increasing, and with that increase the number of climbers doing FAs is increasing and makes competition for the "commons," the number of lines (which is a limited resource) even greater. Since the "commons" are a community entity to steward, it makes every sense that the discussion be engaged. Since the acts of individuals working with only self-interest in mind can eventually eliminate the "commons" by using it up, it is essential that the "community" exercise its role as the steward of the "commons" and impose some restoring order to preserve the "commons," and yes, that might mean limits on personal liberty, if only through moralistic means (the creation of "ethics" by discussing style).
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Amen Ed. TiG is saying that climbing is like skateboarding, a non-regulated personal activity done by those who don't live in 'the system.'
You point out Ed that climbing has expanded, and now that we are reaching the end of our once-unlimited rescources, we must realize that climbing is now a mainstream activity that will be dumbed-down for us in the future if we don't look at the big picture.
I see TiG as being correct - if it was 40 years ago and there was no more tommorow. I see Ed stepping back and looking at the big picture.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2008 - 11:28am PT
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Nice points, Ed.
So in this whole discussion, you punt, it seems to me on who sets the rules for the commons. Most "commons" are regulated for better or worse, by a body appointed or elected to do so, at least in most of the modern world.
It is true that climbing is growing. Some seem to want to restrict that, perhaps to keep there small iconoclastic communities.
The question I raise is really fairly simple. If you believe that any rules should apply, what organization should have the privilege of setting them and enforcing them? There certainly is no such organization today, if you exclude the land managers. In cases where the land is privately owned, this question has essentially been answered already.
The "debate" seems to remain only on public lands, where for the most part, the management of stone to climb has been relatively hands-off.
EDIT:
Just read that link. It seems to arrive at the same conclusion I do. Just appealling to "conscience" does not work. Coercion of a community seems to work. But this road leads inexorably to governance, does it not? Which leads to debate about and resolution of the issues I mentioned in the initial post. Governance can work only with legitimacy. Legitimacy is granted, not taken.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I don't punt, the community is having the discussion right now, partly on this Forum... you can ask the question why anyone has the "authority" to challenge or defend the route Growing Up, Sean Jones? Doug Robinson? wildone? coz? Bachar? Dominga? et al.
The point is the community is having the discussion. If you don't think that that results in action, I'd have to say I was moved and concerned that Doug described himself as being depressed over it. And people reading it think about the points made on both sides of the discussion. While there is no regulating authority in the climbing community of Yosemite Valley, we do depend on people making decisions about what and how they climb there, especially on FAs.
My point is that there is a discussion, and that is part of the stewardship of the resource. Ultimately, I believe people's self-interest in their part of history is an important director of people's actions.
If you want to make a bold climbing statement in Yosemite Valley climbing illustrating the power of your vision, then you must include the collective vision of climbing in the Valley. That collective vision is a product of history and tradition of that community as well as individuals.
I believe in the community stewardship of the climbs, and I believe in individuals. Part of the process of reconciling these two conflicting beliefs is in engaging in this discussion.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I would argue that rules that limit a scarce resource to only being accessible to bold 5.12 climbers are not very democratic, and are in fact a pretty selfish use of those resources. We're not talking about the level of mt bikes vs. ATVs. This would be more like saying in order to preserve resources or uphold tradition, we're only going to allow double black diamond mt bike trails to be built that only the most skilled and boldest riders can do.
If you're going to do that, maybe better not to allow anyone to use the resource and have no impact.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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A lot of noise is made out of who can and who cannot do an FA, where, in fact, anyone can. The point is most people do not, and those who do are very thoughtful and respectful (for the most part) of what they are doing. First and foremost, the FA team doesn't want to botch the job, that is, try to do something harder than they can handle while putting up a lot of stuff (e.g. bolting) as evidence of their inability.
Secondly, you'd like to put a line up that is a good climb, but you actually don't know until after you finish it whether or not it is... so you might cut a few corners, push a bold lead instead of leaving a bolt, and stuff like that. Usually after you've done the climb you know whether or not it's worth putting any more work, like retro-fitting the pro so that it isn't a "death climb" (whatever that is). When Eric and I went up on Dream Easy the first time we didn't put in any bolts. That made it way too committing for most 5.8 leaders. After we saw how it was going to play out, Eric went up with Linda and finished off the route, adding the equipment. That's responsible climbing. Often we practice "catch and release," we do a climb that is not going to be notable and we don't go back and improve it...
You might also have an idea that the climb is a "break through" climb, a statement of something or another regarding the zietgeist or just climbing as hard and as close to the limit as you can, or anyone can. I don't think I'm in that league anymore... but that doesn't mean that I feel bad that someone else is, that someone else will put up climbs I will never have a chance of climbing, that's life.
No one is out there checking your "card" turning you away.
Fact is, the lines left require skills displayed by elite climbers. Bringing the climb down to the level of most climbers is not a new issue, but it is a part of our culture NOT to do it... I don't think it is elitist... except that what is left to do requires elite ability. Even Growing Up is not a climb accessible to most climbers in the Valley, most 5.11's aren't accessible... but they are more accessible today than the day they were put up.
The standards keep rising.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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You know whats weird, besides me, is that, in that 800 plus thread, not once does anybody quote the park rules on defacing national treasures.
Is it not illegal to drill holes into the Dome?
Actually, if you think about it, if we survive global warming long enuff to climb the Dome for the nexy 2000 years, most of the protection will be loactaed at the base of the rock in the form of exfoliated morain, what say?
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Paulina
Trad climber
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The first rule of climbing is: you don't talk about climbing.
Oh wait! Nevermind...
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Good kharma = safe climbing?
Only the Dali Lama knows fo sho.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
all bivied up on the ledge
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Climbing has rules...
Mine are:
1. Climb it from the bottom
2. Place no bolts
3. Pound no pins
4. Chip no holds
5. Leave no trace, no trash
6. If you can't climb it in style..leave it for someone else
These are the rules I've chosen to follow. I won't attempt to impose them on you.
My rules aren't better; they simply ensure that my climbing will have no impact on yours. Again, my choice.
Your rules? Your choice.
Peace!
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
the secret life of T*R
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it took me forever to click on this thread just becuz it has the word "rules" in the title
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Who sets the rules for a fast growing bacterial culture in a petri dish? You might imagine it would collectively self-regulate so as to not use the medium up quite so fast - but you'd be wrong - it's all about unbridled consumption. So now, exactly what rules are you are proposing that might separate climbing today from such a bacteria culture?
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Finally!
"Mine are:
1. Climb it from the bottom
2. Place no bolts
3. Pound no pins
4. Chip no holds
5. Leave no trace, no trash
6. If you can't climb it in style..leave it for someone else"
Thats the Bunny.
No need for 1000.
Thats it.
Game over.
Who's that old timer?
Look at the stress crack along his right eyelid, theres a three finger hold underneath that pup.
Talk about the unroyal arches!
Did they name the Royal Arches for Royal Robbins?
I'm on crack.
I could mantle up the Eiger Sanction with that right brow overhang.
Imagine his schlong!
Yuka!
I thought Harding was....never mind.
Sly ol dog, you!
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Doug Buchanan
Trad climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Total human hours discussing human-made rules that have never limited humans, and never will, and cannot, by design, could have been used to therefore have reached unclimbed mountains on other planets.
Total human hours chasing and punishing those who violated the rules without harming anyone could have been used to build another Himalayan Range.
Pitiable power-damaged minds in governments, and their self-frightened minions are nothing more than occasional amusement for actual climbers and other independent thinkers who contradict the existing institutional rules, by design.
Human minds which are not damaged by acquisition of institutional power conform to reasoning and logic. Learn how to utilize them to vastly more enjoy life. Do not worry. You will not violate your principles. You will define them.
DougBuchanan.com
AlaskanAlpineClub
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jus curious Doug, how old are you?
not getting personal, just want to know the peak age for climbers, you sound like a hard core fanatic...
I want to splash my brains on granite, where can I do this safely?
I'm on DMT.
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Doug Buchanan
Trad climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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With Fred in the game, peak age is Fred's age, and increasing each day he climbs.
Somebody who knows how to contact Fred please ask Fred if he would be so kind as to send any piece of his old or new climbing gear to the Alaskan Alpine Club so we can put it in our newly forming museum.
Anyone else can do that too. Put your name on it.
Doug
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Hey Doug,
Remember Buggs from Fairbanks?? He mentioned you the other day.
We have climbed mucho stone together. We were in the service together back in the day.
Ed, nice postings. I like your style brutha. But dig this: You mentioned JB as one of the icons of bold and clean and most of the time he has been. But I recall one day being quite bummed as he showed his new bosch power drill to some folks in a Tuolumne parking lot.....
TIG, The community discussion albeit unofficial, has a huge impact. It's exactly how the clean, low impact styles became as ingrained as they are. No, I don't want an "official" body making mandatory rules for us. That's why it's so important that we attempt to police ourselves through discussion, admiration, condemnation and legend....
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2008 - 10:30am PT
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oakie, did you do the FA of Arrow? ....
Because according to William's Guide Book it was bolted on rappel by Crowther.
See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Crowther
which says that Will Crowther rap bolted some routes at the Gunks.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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surv - I think that the issue is complex, I've never power drilled on a route, but one day I was working in my yard and I needed to put some anchors into concrete. I used a drill and the appropriate bit, man was that nice! great looking hole and quick... buzzz, buzzz, buzzz, buzzz one stanchion, then four more buzzes for the other. Quickest set of holes I ever drilled in rock, rock that I mixed. I can see how power drilling would be attractive, and it does make more consistently good holes...
The drill-from-hooks method JB used on Bachar-Yarian has been questioned in this Forum as being less-than-best-style, and it is, but the route that was produced is a stellar route, a true test piece. I will not likely ever attempt it, but it stands the test of time. I don't have any problems with it because of the style that was used on the FA.
FA's are a complex to understand, the understanding and interpretation is usually much more difficult than actually doing them. In the "heat of battle" lots of decisions are made almost instinctively... and then there you have it. Sometimes.
The point is that it's easy to be an armchair climber, we should all be out there doing it as much as we can... like JB and all the others, and we acquire an understanding of how to confront the many different aspects of climbing in that experience. Then things might look a bit more nuanced.
It is true, too, that "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
I appreciate the passion of youth, I miss it sometimes, but then I feel much better about things now, it is a richer picture, more accepting of difference.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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RE: arrow - They may have been placed on rappel....but I believe the FA was done sans bolts. I could be remembering incorrectly, but it seems I heard that somewhere.
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jstan
climber
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Willie wasted a summer's worth of his time teaching me how to climb. We never spoke about the climb, nor would I speak of it to him now. Three observations:
1. Guidebooks and their authors are full of errors. Take my word for it.
2. That old center pin bolt is not inserted all the way into the rock.
3. Perfection is granted to only the very special few. Those who are
perfect need to allow for this.
Humility is a virtue taught us by life. Many have commented it is a shame youth has to be wasted on the young. Perhaps we have the opportunity for a trade?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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oakie, No problem.
The Gunks are decidedly different though. Bolts are very rare, for the most part protecting some equally rare slabby climbs.
There are a few very accessible Gunks 10s that almost never see leads, because they are unprotected. Blow it on one of them, and the party is over for quite a while, at least. But they do see a fair share of top-rope climbing since they are single pitch and the top is easily accessible. I surmise that the local ethic is happy to just leave them as TR routes - identified as such in the guide even.
Plenty of other multi-pitch stuff and even single pitch stuff that is protectable.
Occasionally, though not recently, bolts have been placed for anchors, to eliminate sling salads on trees, mainly where it it felt that the trees need the protection.
Kind of special in the scheme of things, I think, since it is privately owned, with a tradition of respecting private property from the outset.
There are a few aid routes there as well. You do not see that often. In fact, the only time I have observed it was a buddy soloing some routes last year, practicing for a trip up The Nose.
Boston 5.4 is an interesting example of a Gunks climb. Rated G, nice little climb with an off-width. Maybe it should be G*, since you can easily die on it if you do not have a 5 or 6 inch cam - almost nobody there does. I tried leading it one day. Found 1 spot that I could get all 4 lobes of a 4 inch cam to just touch wide-open. Backed off. There was some blood on a rock on the ground. Two days later I found out a guy had died the day before I backed off. So in reality, today that climb essentially remains a 5.4 TR or solo. One could bolt it from a stance ground up, but it isn't bolted.
Local thing. Who knows where it would and wouldn't be bolted, and certainly time-dependent.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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I only live by one climbing rule and it easily applies to ANYWHERE you are climbing and ANY STYLE of climbing you are engaged in:
1. Wear no lycra.
-JR
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jstan
climber
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Sorry to hear about the accident on Boston. The clubs used to run training programs to help people make good choices while climbing. I just don't remember Boston though badly unprotected moves in the Gunks are very rare.
Before sport climbing even got a name groups of people in the Gunks had already taken up top roping interesting problems. The idea of putting in artificial protection and then claiming it was a lead never really occurred to anyone.The fact you could generally move over six feet and find whatever protection you needed made the idea pretty absurd.
I was, again very fortunate, in that I got to know Dan Smiley. He had welcomed Fritz Weissner and Hans Kraus to the cliff in the thirties and the forties because the Smiley family views the land as a resource to be protected and to be used to elevate the lives of the people around it. If I had had any undisciplined desires when I first came to the cliff, I lost them the moment I realized the nature of the world and of the people I had fallen into.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Ed,
I'm into nuance, having practiced some of it for myself over the years. I'm just saying even guys like JB have a couple skeletons bouncin' around in the closet.
I'm active, but not in an area that's so interesting for hunting around for FA's. (DC)
I'll be moving to NM soon though and I'll be dragging my kids around the mountains and desert looking for obscure little crags that I can put up something in my own "best" style...
I actually did a 350 footer a few years ago with my wife at an "undisclosed" location in TX. Just she and I, the raptors and the lizards. 5.9+, not a single fixed piece or slings left on it. We walked off at sunset. Sweet
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Doug Buchanan
Trad climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Yoooo Survival and all....
I do remember Buggs, an unusual event since I normally do not remember names. I do better with complex concepts.
In the normal storms and calm of all things, the most active era of Fairbanks climbing (Alaska Range) was back in the 70's and 80's. Since convenient road-side ice climbing got popular, fewer climbers skied into the real hills.
Since John Reeves started building his ice towers by Fairbanks, I have not driven down to the Range for even road side ice climbing. With 176 feet of ice next to town, and a carpeted, wifi warm up shack next to it, we sit in soft chairs and put our crampons on, on carpet, while discussing how toilsome this climbing thing has become. We actually have to carry our own ice tools and screws over to the ice. Tough times.
Check out the AlaskanAlpineClub.org Ice Tower pages. Fine wine in stemmed crystal up on the ice.
But the storm of railing against the rules made by armed government thugs who perceive their illusionary power to force more perceptive minds to do as idiots and their minions decree is always quality entertainment in the US Police State.
The problem with Alaska climbing is too many options. The Siren song of sea kayaking next to virgin vertical granite somehow wafts from the computer screen.
Barbecue by the Ice Tower this Saturday after climbing. Tough times.
DougBuchanan
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Somewhat OT, I'm reminded of the scene in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid where they come back to the ranch, and find that a big gorilla is trying to take over the Hole in the Wall Gang. The gorilla challenges Butch (Paul Newman) to a knife fight, and Butch says "first we have to decide the rules".
The gorilla, somewhat perplexed, says "There are no rules in a knife fight", at which Newman kicks him between the legs.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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I appreciate the passion of youth, I miss it sometimes ...
I always said "You know the wisdom that comes with age?
Well, it ain't worth it."
As for purity in climbing, I'm all for it. However, if there were no bolts or pins to clip, I sure would miss a lot of the routes they've enabled me to do.
Back in my youth, I imagined a really powerful suction-bolt thingy. Not unsimilar to the suction cups that I've seem for windows, but they'd be powerful enough to stick to rock. However, I think we're a long way off from that type of technology.
Until somebody comes up with a radical invention, we're kinda stuck using bolts, pins, cams, and wedges. And has long as there are pins and bolts, there will be controversy on how to use them.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Before there are rules there is usually a tradition. A "rule" in this case is simply following tradition, at least in the broad strokes. In places where the tradition is strong, like the Gunks or on British Gritstone, one would be totally out of bounds to start rap bolting. Perhaps Yosemite falls somewhere in the middle (between a sport area and a trad sanctuary) so the issue of tradition is equivocal.
None of this is simple, and it's more than just fobbing this topic off as "your" rules encroaching on "our" freedom.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Well said, John.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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bump
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Charter ratification and its amendment process
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