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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 26, 2005 - 11:57am PT
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I know we've hit on this in various topics, but let's cetntralize some of the commentary(sorry for the climbing related post)
Lambone's comment is on the front page right new re: WDD, there's also been issues w/ it on Zodiac, and the Lowe route in zion to name a few recent examples
Free climbers claim it's an advancement in style, thus bolts are ok
Aid climbers rightly argue that it changes the character of an existing line, no different than say, nailing the stovelegs.
let the flaming begin
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Jan 26, 2005 - 12:00pm PT
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Calling Doctor Coiler, Doctor Coiler to the Flame Room, Doctor Coiler...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 12:07pm PT
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If free climbers have to add bolts to an existing route inorder to do it...plust string up miles of fixed ropes for months...then that is no way by todays standards "an advancement in style."
I'd like to try and hear one person argue that point. Anyway, the pitch where said bolts were added is protected with fixed gear anyway. Skinner is a pussy, that's the bottom line.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 26, 2005 - 12:15pm PT
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If you change a route to climb it in "your" or a new style & it affects the character of the route for other users, that's a load of BS and you deserve a good swift kick in the jimmy.
Plenty of unclimbed rock out there to be fukkin up someone elses experience.
I'm not an aid climber (done it, thought it sucked, props to those who like it), but fully understand that if I go to free a previously established aid climb and replace the manky 1/4 buttonhead that protects the 50 ensuing foot hooking section with a fat beefy 1/2 supersteel that I'd be ruining the experience that said aid climbers were expecting/looking for.
It should be common sense.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jan 26, 2005 - 12:19pm PT
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A couple of people have mentioned the word "style". That's what this all boils down to and it's also why this conversation will go around in circles forever.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
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ok, now that we've got some opinions i'll throw my .02 in
i'm against adding protection to established routes, especially bomber fixed pro in the middle of a crux aid pitch. i agree that freeing a route should involve more than getting really strong and memorizing sequences, dealing with the nature of the route's pro should be part of the challenge.
i'm not sure if i agree with the button head commment, replacing old gear is ok in my book, but bolt for bolt, rivet for rivet, etc. fixed pins may be an exception
i guess it's those grey areas i'm curious about, most people here probably agree that adding new bolts where there were previously none is wrong
finally, i agree that it's a stylistic point, but as long as we've got to share the rock, we may as well at least try to understand each other's stances
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 01:39pm PT
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Free Climbing vrs. Aid Climbing may allways be a question of style...and it may never be answered as to which is more bold, noteworthy, fulfilling, etc....
BUT, bolting on established routes for the sake of your own benefit is a matter of ingnoring and defying well established ethical standards that has made Yosemite and many other climbing areas the great places they are...
What if it was a route with more prolific history? What if I went up and bolted the "Hook or Book" traverse so that I could free climb it?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 26, 2005 - 01:45pm PT
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Lambone said "Skinner is a pussy, that's the bottom line."..
bwaahahahaha... that's funny. We had a rough draft of "Tough don't rub off" that he wrote with us in the Vamps. What a load of ___. At the Inconnu there are some framed picts from Skinners trip to the Cirque. We'll be sending some photos up to Warren. I'm almost saddened to occupy the same wall space.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 26, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
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Trashman, I don't know if the buttonhead comment is correct (like I said, Aid ain't my bag) but I was under the impression that it was bad "style" (here we go again) to change the protection on hard aid. If one of Klaus's nightmares has big runouts on older bolts, is it OK to beef them up with bigger new ones.
Or is it like you said, bolt for bolt, rivet for rivet is OK but a bolt where a rivet was is the bad style?
Purely speculating, I don't pretend to know what the real story is.
Would like to though.
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jan 26, 2005 - 01:51pm PT
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Blowboarder wrote:
--if I go to free a previously established aid climb and replace
--the manky 1/4 buttonhead that protects the 50 ensuing foot
--hooking section with a fat beefy 1/2 supersteel that I'd be
--ruining the experience that said aid climbers were
--expecting/looking for.
--
--It should be common sense.
Common sense? Are you really saying that you should never replace a manky bolt because everyone expects it to be crap and that's how it ought to stay?
There was some pinhead in my local area who was arguing that 1/4" bolts (protection for free routes) placed by Bill Forrest 30+ years ago should never be replaced by new 3/8" bolts because it would "change the committment level of the routes."
Unless I'm understanding what you said here, you're saying something very similar?? I don't agree with that viewpoint at all.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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I would like to know what the real story is too. How many new bolts on WDD, and where...
Blowboarder, you are getting into the grey area between replacement and retro-fitting. Generaly no one argues about bolt-for-bolt or rivit-for-rivet (sometimes size and type of hardware makes a difference, as well as hole re-use), but rivet-for-bolt...will raise some eyebrows and get complaints from some...but not others. Tangerine Trip is the classic example. In general most people support efforts like the ASCA to upgrade dangerous hardwear, however sometimes their techniques are questionable.
Fixed head or beak-for-Bolt definately crosses the line. Imagine an aid pitch where you once had to know how to place heads and beaks or else take big whippers possibly on to a ledge now being safely protected by new shiny bolts. A ruined aid pitch in my opinion. For what, so one guy can chalk up another FFA on his tick list and get in a magazine, it's bullsh#t.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 26, 2005 - 02:20pm PT
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*nature* points up and says "What Lambone said".
I did the Trip before and after the replacement effort. There is still a ton of junk on that route (counted about 20 bolts within arms reach at one belay). I don't now that hangers were required - since there's a pitch where all the dowels were replaced with button heads with no hangers and thus requiring a rack of rivit hangers. Personally, I think they overkilled it on The Trip. But then again, I didn't make the effort so I'd hate to send them a bad vibe - I appreciate the effort to the umteenth extent!
The arguement that you should replace size-for-size blows in my mind. 1/4" suck for free climbing - they might have been bomber for the first but the idea that you do the route "in the style" of the FA is bogus after 20 years of rust. They had 'em bomber at first (new 1/4" bolts are not *that* bad), but after time they degrade. I say bolt it for the long haul if you are drillin' the fu(king hole.
Is there anyone out there that'd argue the Trip should have been replaced with crap-ass aluminum? (serious question). Anyone?
As far as retroing a klaus route, what's the point? How many have seen a second much less have anyone even consider it?
As far as style goes (RE: the hubers, et al), I've little room to comment. Other than to say perhaps "style" isn't the word (good or bad). There is more to it than just style IMHO.
carry on...
Doug
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 26, 2005 - 02:32pm PT
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nature, i'm not really giving a sh#t about those coming after me. They don't like the bolts... well f*#k them! Lead bolts on ground up, I'd got with 1/4's for free and machine heads for aid. For belays a 3/8 and a rivet or 1/4 incher is good.
Adding bolts is lame and sackless. I can't really comment on adding fixed gear to free cause that isn't my game at all.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
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just to clarify, this discusion has split into two tangents...
1. Bolt addition
2. Bolt replacement
keep in mind the orgiginal topic was about adding new bolts where others did not exist...next to cracks even, because people don't have the sack to trust aid placements for free climbing.
that's all.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 26, 2005 - 02:38pm PT
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bigwalling, nor should you. To each his own. Cool by me. If I'm putting them in then I'll be putting them in to last. We all climb for our own reasons and it's not my place to say if that's right or wrong for others. In the vamps I put in a belay with a 3/8" and a 1/4" and caught sh#t for it. I could care less. I asked "ya'll ever had a bolt blow on you?". The conversation ended. Though I will say I picked up a handful of the hilti(?) stainless 1/4". Considering how our rack rusted after just a few weeks it was probably not a bad move.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 02:46pm PT
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Lambone, this was the direction i was hoping the discussion would take, like i said, adding bomber half-inchers where there were none is sorta a no brainer for most arguing here.
i understand the sentiments re: changed free routes due to new hardware, but it doesn't seem to make any sense to go to all the work of replacing hardware, just to end up w/ more mank.
another tangent to chew on, as placements become blown out, should a dowel be used to keep the excitement up, or do you put a bolt in as long as you're drilling?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 26, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
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Rather than stating my opinion... If it's me, and I'm drilling the hole, it will be filled with something good. I'll care less about keeping the excitment up. Adding a hole next to a blownout head placement is apples VS oranges to me.
Oh, and isn't this sort of discussion sort of illegal around here? Climbing discussion! How could we!!!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 02:52pm PT
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"Lambone, this was the direction i was hoping the discussion would take, like i said, adding bomber half-inchers where there were none is sorta a no brainer for most arguing here."
why are you trying to steer the discussion away from the issue at hand?
This is what was posted on the Wet Denim Daydream route beta page:
"But someone is trying to free this route and has added many bolts to the left of the A3 section. You can climb up to a newly added bolt and then go right into the A3 section."
The issue is:
Bolts placed on WDD, an A3 pitch protected with heads and beaks and blades. I was exited to do this route soon, now I'm just pissed. If I ran into that fuc'n Skinner guy I'd give him a piece of my mind.
The bolt replacement issue has been drilled in many other threads, do a search and look them up or start your own discussion in a new thread.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 26, 2005 - 03:29pm PT
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Wasn't trying to piss anybody off or tell them how to climb, just expressing my stance on it. Wasn't trying to go OT either.
To clarify: New bolts on existing aid routes for the purpose of freeing them that changes character of said aid route=BAD.
Replacing old mank on free climbing routes with bomber new gear=GOOD
Adding new bolts while replacing old mank of free routes=EXTREME VAGINITUS
Kind of funny this thread comes about now. Couple months ago I found this roof crack coming out of a cave on this wall way behind and up the mountain from most of the established routes. Looked freeclimbable at somewhere around 12+ but protection once it pulled the roof onto headwall above was nonexistent as it turned into tips lieback offset seam. So I'm working it on TR (nice fat tree at the top) and figuring out the moves and gear sequence. Becomes obvious that a cam in the last good jam under roof will protect to there but after pulling heinous moves into lieback and moving up 5 or 6 feet any fall will be a groundfall. So do I add two bolts to headwall (the necessary # to keep a climber off the dirt) between last good gear placement and the pod about 20' up headwall (which will take #3 cam).
Looking closely for potential micronut placements (I've never placed a bolt and am not anxious to get started), I discover that the crack has been pinned before (probably KB or LA).
Do a little calling around, couple guys had aided it 15 years or so ago, still go aid it for practice every now and then, route doesn't see any other traffic.
I don't even ask, it's now just a TR project, maybe they'll scar out a gear placement after enough aid ascents and the headwall will take something tiny.
Gotta send it before I worry about leading it though.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2005 - 03:29pm PT
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I thought the original concept of climbing was to do it free without aid. When someone adds bolts to protect an original aid climb to free it, what can be done?
Don’t clip the bolts and aid it as you would.
“EEEgad we can’t do that, all those bolts look like sh-t”.
“That motherf-cker poser!”
“It’s not natural!”
Leave it as it is, some will say. But still others will do the opposite. I believe some kind of compromise must be done. Otherwise wars, pestilence famines and whatnot will remain forever. Unfortunately this is the path we’ve chosen…. some by fate and others by karma. Utopia …..where will we find it?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 03:37pm PT
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"When someone adds bolts to protect an original aid climb to free it, what can be done?"
In the words of our own illustrious American Chopper...
vroom vroom
Aid climbers need to defend their turf.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 03:45pm PT
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Did skinner even 'scend that project? Didn't think so.
The least he could have done was make sure he could free the damn route before placing more new bolts.
lame
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 04:21pm PT
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i guess that's why i was hoping it would take some interesting twists, as far as i'm concerned the bolts on WDD should be outta there either way. even if he did send it, bad form, back to square one, try to free it w/ out next time
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:27pm PT
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A while back I picked up a freebee copy of The Oct 94 Climbing. (sorry not enough interesting content to justify buying it any more!) On pg 55 There's a photo of Caldwell on a 13c pitch on the Dihedral. The crack would obviously take pro as he has his thumb in it, but there's a row of bolts 18" from the crack. Why? Would pre placed pro would have put the rope where the feet need to be? Isn't that a bit like if I placed a line of bolts next to a splitter 5.10 tips crack because the rope kept geting in the way. That would be obviously unacceptable. What difference do a couple of numbers make?
Is pre placed pro on a supposed FFA really kosher anyway? Does that mean the cables (half dome) really qualify as a FFA? After all he walked up once it was complete! What happened to the concept that you are only as good as what you can onsight, (free or aid) and either protect yourself or submit to the risk?
I've a lot more respect for the Sorensen, et. al. FFA's at Tahquitz and Suicide, (as well as other clean ascents in other areas by other participants) that were done predominantly on sight, always from ground up, with the protection that was available at the time and still have fearsome reputations.
At some point engineered routes become rope protected bouldering exercizes. While the participants deserve acolades for their gymnastic prowess, they have still inevitably brought the stone down to their level.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:41pm PT
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TGT,
WORD!
I WISH I WERE HARD ENOUGH TO CLIMB IN THE TRUE STYLE!
BLOWBOARDER
NOT A HARDMAN
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:55pm PT
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TGT
“At some point engineered routes become rope protected bouldering exercises”
True, but how would that bring the stone down to their level? They still have to climb it? Maybe protection down to their level? The disiplic succession is being lost. Splinter groups are forming everywhere with their own ideas. How to solve the problem is the difficult question. It’s easy to say “this is right and that isn’t and it should be done this way and so and so did it like this.”
Who has the answer?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 05:57pm PT
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TGT,
I don't think Tommy added new bolts to that route, just replaced some old ones...I could be wrong though.
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salbrecher
Mountain climber
vancouver
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:02pm PT
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As of early November there were 2 bolts within reach of the A3 pitch 5 of WDD. There are a few more angling left towards the roof out of way of WDD. The second bolt in reach of the route is about halfway to a fixed KB at the top of the A3 seam. It's quite a reach to clip it. You will still cream the flakes below if you fall right before the Fixed KB. there was no fixed gear in the seam up to KB. I can't say I wasn't glad the bolts were there as it stopped a big fall I took while solo. all gear pulled and I landed a few ft above the flake. I don't know if theres any more above that, I went down after that. The pitch still has spice to it, although reduced.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:06pm PT
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way to go Stephan! did you do that after SQ? that clears it up some, thanks.
we should do another wall...
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salbrecher
Mountain climber
vancouver
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:12pm PT
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After SQ. I went to J tree for a week after that storm and then I came back when the forecast looked better. Camp 4 was more deserted than during that big storm. I'll be back this summer for a few months, I mean for 14 days.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 26, 2005 - 06:43pm PT
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I'm just an over the hill recreational climber, but I have been at it albeit at a modest level for about 35 years.
Here's what I'd like considered, and I'll use the climbs at Tahquitz and Suicide as an example.
If Sundance, Valhalla, and The Edge had been rap bolted with bolts every 8 or 10 ft would that diminish the experience? While I've personaly only got the huevos to lead Sundance, a modern sport bolted Valhalla would for sure be within my reach, possibly even The Edge. It wouldn't be the same though and would have robbed future generations of climbers of the experience when they have it together on both the physical and mental planes.
The logic behind the descisions is not dependent on the grade.
That's what I meant by bringing the stone down to their level. Someday some wonderkind will be able to pull these things off in good style, but the opportunity may be robed from them. That may be where you can draw the line between style and ethics.
Style is personal, ethics touch all that follow.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Jan 26, 2005 - 09:29pm PT
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A lot of these controversies come down to the panzies whining things are unnecessarily dangerous, but the ethics cover this. You simply track down the FA, explain to them what you want to do to their route, and if they give a thumbs up you have at it. Generally bolts stamped "FA approved" are very unlikely to get chopped. It would seem to me that an aspiring FFA should not have carte blanch to screw up someone elses FA just to get their name in the books. It's exactly that behavior that justifies the crowbar.
In the case that the FA is dead or unobtainable the ethic drops down to community consensus as a backup (usually consisting of buying the locals enough beer that they finally give you a drunken thumbs up).
Are these ethics outdated and quaint?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 09:30pm PT
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nicely put TGT, i agree completely about leaving projects until they can be done in good form, especially on established routes
leave the heavy tactics for new ground
Lambone, re: bolts on dihedral, i think those are skinner's too
edit: my bad, just went back and re-read, looks like skinner did the crux pitch, not sure who bolted the crack in the photo
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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Jan 26, 2005 - 10:09pm PT
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Steelmonkey and Werner seem to me to be on the right logical path. If you're gonna place a pin or bolt, you're making a significant change. If a bolt gets old and manky, I'm all for placing appropriate modern gear. So I'm not against replacing pins with bolts per se, but in certain circumstances might argue against it.
When it gets down to retrobolting an aid route to free it, I believe in local community consensus and value the opinion of the first ascensionist. You're never going to make all the people happy all the time - and the times, they still are a chaingin'. I can easily side with those wanting to preserve an old masterpiece, but not every choss pile needs to be preserved in the condition it was in when it was first aided. Especially old aid routes that aren't classics and especially old routes that don't get traffic because the quality of the line is low.
Why not focus energy on the routes that really matter? Why not focus energy on developing model systems of behavior - those being civil communication and community action?
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 26, 2005 - 11:26pm PT
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If someone adds bolts, within reason, in order to free a route that has previously gone via aid, that in no way ruins the spirit of the FA party. Those that want to aid it can still do so.
Crying about replacing manky bolts is just stupid. You are still risking the same fall. You have not changed the way the first party climbed the route-those 1/4 inchers were bomber and new when they put them in-but why increase the odds of being killed unnecessarily?
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spectreman
climber
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Jan 26, 2005 - 11:59pm PT
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I once saw Skinner solo a 50 foot 12C in Hueco, he didn't look like such a pussy on that route. I'm not really defending him, just pointing out that he is an incredibly talented free climber.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:14am PT
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"What's "within reason"? "
Bolted in traditional style. In other words, use gear where possible but if a bolt needs to be placed to free it, place the bolt. Don't "sport-bolt" the whole thing.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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Oh great, the ethics police are here too.
Don't want to flame so I'll just keep my opinions to myself on these issues from now on, I guess.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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No no, don't do that...flame away, tell us what you think. Don't be shy.
There's no police here........(grins)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 27, 2005 - 12:41am PT
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yeah.. there are no police around here... well except Jody but he doesn't count :-).
No police - just a bunch of as#@&%es.
The official SOB of SuperTaco's thanks you.
Over and out,
Doug
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Jim Hewett
climber
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Jan 27, 2005 - 04:52am PT
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Wet Lycra Nightmare, 5.13d, A0
I don't read this forum often. I guess I was turned off by the negativity. A friend alerted me to this thread so I thought that I should at least make sure that you all have the facts.
Todd Skinner and/or I climbed every pitch of a new free route on Leaning Tower in November of 2004. The route goes free after the initial bolt ladder pitches, following the aid line of Wet Denim Daydream most of the way. Here is a brief description of the pitches off of Ahwahnee Ledge.
Pitch 1: This pitch climbs straight up from the ledge, avoiding the low quality 5.5 runout by climbing the face past four bolts to the start of the crux aid corner. The free line follows the corner for about 10 feet before it cuts left out on to the face and then right and straight up to a bolted belay at a large roof.
Pitch 2: This is the technical crux of the route, about 10 feet to the left of the aid line. It traverses right and then climbs left out a handrail in the roof for eight feet or so to a tough move at the lip. Once over the lip, the line climbs up and then right to rejoin the aid route and end about ten feet right of the bolted belay of the first aid pitch.
Pitch 3: This pitch follows the aid line to the next bolted belay.
Pitch 4: This pitch also follows the aid line to the next bolted belay.
Pitch 5: This pitch climbs the dreaded "shipwreck flake" and continues past the bolts at the ledge above the flake to end at the bolted belay just under the big roof at the top.
Pitch 6: This pitch does not climb the Wet Denim roof finish, but climbs left out a finger crack to a bomb bay chimney. After following the chimney crack further out the roof, the lip is pulled and a short slab section leads to a bolted belay 6 feet from the top.
This is the most coninually steep multipitch climb that I or Todd have ever seen, on predominately good quality rock with features you don't get on other formations in Yosemite. We figure all but one pitch to be 5.13.
Our ethics on this route were to create a quality climb that could be onsighted safely enough by a competent 5.13 trad leader. Natural protection was used wherever it affords actual protection for freeclimbing falls. This doesn't include the smallest of heads in blownout placements. 15 bolts were placed for lead protection throughout the route, mostly on pitches that diverged from the aid line. There are three bolts reachable from the beginning of the corner off of Awahnee Ledge and two bolts on the aid line on Pitch 4 as described above.
We feel that we have established a wonderful free route that will gain popularity as freeclimbing standards enevitably rise.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2005 - 10:19am PT
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Thanks for the info, should at least help cut down on the speculation
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jan 27, 2005 - 10:43am PT
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re."We feel that we have established a wonderful free route that will gain popularity as freeclimbing standards enevitably rise."
That may very well be true. However, it does beg the question... Do you feel that in the process of creating your route you have forever altered an already established and popular line? Seems like that is what people are curious about.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 27, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
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JH,
Thanks for being forthcoming with your information and congrats on your impressive free climb (or I guess I should say the pitches that you did free). I apologize If I was overly negative earlier in this thread.
My opinion stands though, I don't agree with the philosophy that it's ok to add bolts to any existing line just to make it safer or reduce the length of a fall, free climbing or aid climbing. Regardless of how many or how few bolts were added I still think it's bad form. The purest form of free climbing existing aid lines is doing them as is, if it's nescesary to add more bolts then maybe the climb should remain and aid route until someone stronger and more bold is up for the challange.
just my 2 cents from the armchair.
cheers
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:07pm PT
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Jim H.,
P.S.
Also, please refrain from littering our walls with your illegal and unsightly fixed ropes while working your projects in the future. Beware that if I happen to run into them again they will be properly removed and disposed of, but I am sure you are aware that those are the risks taken when abandoning equipment on a popular big wall.
Thank you,
Matt
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:39pm PT
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Sure. Like aid FAs never leave fixed ropes.
Also, I'm not sure if it's reasonable to ask a freeclimber to risk the same fall as someone who's standing in aiders, resting on a piece.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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"Sure. Like aid FAs never leave fixed ropes."
I didn't say they didn't...but I climb mostly trade routes, so I'm not competing for space with first ascensionists. And climbing up routes strung up with fixed ropes is not much fun. WDD is almost as popular as the West Face these days. People, and to me that includes all big wall free climbers shouldn't get special privilages to clutter popular routes with their junk.
Maybe this opinion seems rash to some, but almost everyone I have ever talked to who was dissapointed by fixed lines on their planned objective has felt the same way.
As far as not risking long falls, tell that to the Hubers, Caldwell and Houlding who have done bold free climbing on walls without altering the origional route.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 27, 2005 - 07:56pm PT
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"Also, I'm not sure if it's reasonable to ask a freeclimber to risk the same fall as someone who's standing in aiders, resting on a piece."
Is it reasonable to ask them to not try to free aid lines then if doing so alters the experience for the 'other' 99% of us that enjoy it from aiders or for the superhuman that has yet to come along with so much skill acting as their pro that they don't wish for more?
There was a time when freeing El Cap was on the cusp of what was imaginable, so it may have been more appropriate for the pioneers to be a bit more 'anything goes' about it back then. However, there are now a few bolted 'free' variations that don't even go free within a few feet of the original lines, and also plenty of examples of people who climbed hard on the existing protection opportunities or lackthereof.
Leaving fixed lines on an otherwise committing aid line that lots of people work hard and travel great distances to attempt vs. leaving fixed lines on a true FA that is not in anyone's way are two totally different things.
Some of the free walls (or wish-they-were-free walls) get fixed for months...and not just for FFAs. Riding the fixed lines on the more 'accessible' El Cap and Half Dome routes seems to be the new Porch Swing.
The fixed lines on aid climbs seem to mostly be just the bottom pitches, and they tend to disappear when the party blasts off. Chongo's famous sail on the Seas aside, I don't personally know of anyone who spent a whole season or more working on an existing aid route?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jan 27, 2005 - 09:23pm PT
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What is this nonsense about a low rated climb being low quality?
A friend did a 5.6/7 FA last weekend that is just an outstanding climb, even if all the holds are big.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:17am PT
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I've found it disappointing when ropes are fixed way up climbs for months. I showed up at the base of Half Dome once to do the Direct. Skinner had ropes fixed for 1400 feet up on it. He was there with Nancy Fegin and Galen Rowell. They were cool, and would have let us pass, but I just didn't feel like climbing next to 1400 of rope hanging next to us and at the belays.
Fortunately, the regular route was empty by some fluke so we went for that in a day instead. Todd was on the exact same moves that he had worked for hours the previous day when we came down the next morning after a bivy on top.
(side note: I couldn't believe the guy carried a hang board up to the base of Half Dome, hung it on the wall at the base, and used it to work out when he wasn't cranking.)
Started up the Muir once when Scotty Burke had his ropes fixed for 5 pitches and a fixed ledge on the wall, and then Caldwell had his ropes higher up on the route. Passing Scott's ledge and messup up bivy site was a pain.
Oh well, I try to live and let live, but if this major working of walls got even more popular, I'd say enough is enough. If the trade routes regularly had fixed ropes most of the way up them, it would suck greatly. It's a judgement call I suppose. I don't mind the fixed ropes to Heart and would be bummed if they were removed.
As for adding bolts to aid routes. I'd be discouraging toward it but I think "It Depends" and in reality, how the community tolerates such things tends to center around the players as well as the acts.
Caldwell, who I like and is inspirational and amazing, has a long record of relying on other people's equiping of free walls. Schnieder for Lurking Fear, Smith and Cosgrove for Muir, Skinnner for Dihedral, and so on. So I can't call him bold or overbolting, cause he's doing what I would do, let others do the dirty work.
I don't know who bolted the changing corners pitch on the Nose, but I can tell you that many of those bolts are within reach of the route cause I took a stupid fall on one once when a brass nut worked it's way out after I'd been standing on it awhile. Nobody seems to mind, but in my mind, it's as bad as many of the examples stated here, maybe worse cause it's on the Nose. On the other hand, that pitch looks pretty thin and hard. On the other hand, you can fall a long way down that pitch and not get hurt cause I did so. My partner had somehow feed tons of slack out so when I fell, I went 25 feet instead of less than 10.
Doing the Salathe Headwall in the dark once, we got sidetracked on Skinner's free variation and missed Long Ledge. Had a miserable night on a non-ledge with another party hanging various body parts in slings through the night until we couldn't feel our arms or legs anymore and so then changed positions.
But let me tell you, I don't have any answers. People do things and sometimes the community buys it, and sometimes they don't. There are no strict rules and even if there are, some folks seem be be able to break them with impunity.
What should we do? Just what we're doing, Attempting to create dialog and consensus, and, inevitably failing at that, dealing with individual events imperfectly as they happen.
Peace
Karl
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Jan 28, 2005 - 11:51am PT
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re: wet lycra nightmare... maybe its been hashed out thoroughly before, but can a route name be changed just because a route is climbed free, or in this case partially free (5.13 A0). Seems like Skinner et al could name the variation (where route diverges) but not the entire line which shares pitches... Shameless posing and posturing for the sponsors and mags???
Also, sparingly placing a bolt to free an aid climb which is a C1 trade route does not seem as out of line as placing the same bolt on an established testpiece, to free it, which significantly lowers the aid rating (fall potential).
flame away...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:02pm PT
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I find it funny that Jim Hewett now ignores us and lurks safely from a distance. You know he is reading...
If he had a backbone he'd come out of the closet and try to defend what he did or at least explain the thought process. But I suppose we shouldn't be suprised that he is afraid...considering the context of the conversation.
If he could bolt this web page to allow for safe passage I'm sure he would.
I have made my points pretty clearly, until someone from the other side speaks up...this is just me preaching to the choir.
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:12pm PT
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What about added anchor bolts??? Seems like all the aid climbers don't bitch about big bolts getting added to anchors. If one is gonna argue that new lead bolts are wrong... I hope they are ready to argue that added anchor bolts are just as wrong.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:20pm PT
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re."Seems like all the aid climbers don't bitch about big bolts getting added to anchors."
Where ya been? People on this site complain about it all the time. There's been plenty of bitchin on that very subject.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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anchor bolts are the lesser of two evils in my mind, but three good bolts should be the maximum.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:44pm PT
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Lambone
“If he had a backbone he'd come out of the closet and try to defend…”
WTF are you talking about? Hewett already explained his thought process in his original thread. He has no obligation to answer to the likes of you.
“But I suppose we shouldn't be suprised that he is afraid….”
Afraid of what….you? The context of the conversation? You’re dreaming man. They did their thing good or bad, Dude. Now the ball’s in your court. Go fix it if you want.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:48pm PT
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Personally, I like to haul a barcolounger up with me to eliminate those painful hanging belays when working new free variations to existing routes. I don't know what kind of gumbies you guys are but everyone that's anyone knows it takes at least six bomber 1/2" bolts to securely mount a barcolounger to the wall.
Oh yeah, those guys that insist on taking their generators, microwave ovens, and refrigerators full of TV dinners up are pansies.
My2¢
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 01:59pm PT
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David, i read this site regularly and I hardly ever see people saying they want to see anchor bolts chopped on big walls.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:00pm PT
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Werner,
In my eyes he didn't explain anything. He said that he put bolts in on the route to protect falls, but that's it.
Did they ask the first ascensionist if this was ok?
Did they ask the local community if anyone would mind?
Did they consider some people might not agree?
Did they consider the impact of leaving fixed ropes up on the route?
I want to know what drives the decision to ignore the rest of the climbing community and do what ever you want to a route at your own liking.
To me it just seems like a disregard for a style of climbing that many enjoy.
Afraid of me...of course not. The dude climbes 5.13 or whatever, obviously way tougher then me. I was thinking more along the lines of being afraid of public scrutiny.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:22pm PT
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Lambone
“I want to know what drives the decision to ignore the rest of the climbing community and do what ever you want to a route at your own liking.”
Did Ray Jardine ask the community if it’s ok to do what he did? Harding? Or the multitude of other individuals. There’s no written law saying you have to ask for anything. Where do you guys get it in your heads that there is?
Some respect the succession…some will take it to different levels…
Some may take to what Karl said in his above post.
Walt Shipley summed it up long time ago. That the first ascent party has free reign to do whatever they want….even if it’s insane. Does that mean they now own the thing? Your dreaming. Some will respect that and others will too, but they also believe they too have
the same rights the first ascent party had.
Disregard? Yep Columbus disregarded the community….
And that’s what drives them however one sees it.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:26pm PT
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well, then I guess we just sit on our thumbs and watch it continue to happen year after year until no route maintains it's original charcater. what a great prospect!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:37pm PT
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No … don’t worry about that, worry about, YOU. If you don’t know who you are, then how the hell would you fix the problem. The problem isn’t outside of us.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 02:55pm PT
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I'm not worried about me...I DON'T PLACE BOLTS.
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Jan 29, 2005 - 11:32am PT
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Here's the bottom line... If you're going to free an A4 pitch, do it on the A4 gear. If you feel like you need to drill on said pitch you're not ready to free climb it. If you DO drill on it, you're chickensh#t, no matter how many spray articles you've written or how many sponsors you carry. It's embarasing to hear these so called "profesional" climbers standing behind their drilling on routes put up in the 60's and 70's. Does it mean that much to these guys to get into the mags and have everybody adore them? What a bunch of Chumps!
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 29, 2005 - 11:55am PT
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Coiler, spot on. Agree 100%
As for Joe Rockstar, it means there livelyhood. No news equals dropped sponsorships. Companies don't sponsor people for their achievements but rather their exposure and noteriety. It's just a trickle down from the Hollywood set, the climbing media doesn't operate any different from the mainstream media.
Hot names sell sh#t, regardless of how they got known.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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Jan 29, 2005 - 12:54pm PT
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Werner, thank you for making sense. I totally agree with this quote from Walt Shipley that you posted: " That the first ascent party has free reign to do whatever they want….even if it’s insane. Does that mean they now own the thing? Your dreaming. Some will respect that and others will too, but they also believe they too have the same rights the first ascent party had."
I personally don't place bolts. I might in the future, but as of now I haven't. However, if an idividual wants to place a bolt to protect against a possibly X fall while freeing something, that is not a problem.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 01:17pm PT
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Coiler says:
“Here's the bottom line... If you're going to free an A4 pitch, do it on the A4 gear.”
“If you DO drill on it, you're chickensh#t”
Since when are you the authority on chickensh_t? Playground trash talk....whatsha gona do when some guy takes you up on it some day, .... invites you to the knuckle sandwich lunch.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 29, 2005 - 01:39pm PT
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Werner, we having a bad day or does Coiler just get under your skin?
This inquiring mind inquires.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 01:43pm PT
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Never a bad day just some facts.
This is the same kind of trash talk that got Bachar. He pushed the wrong guy to far one day and whamo. It was a mighty blow!
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 29, 2005 - 01:49pm PT
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Good point.
Ethical/style discussions always seem to become heated, probably because we all like to believe we're doing it the RIGHT way. I don't aid climb much (french free like a little bastard when I have too) so my opinion on this subject is pretty much worthless but my stance on ethics/styles in climbing pretty much mirrors my stance on life.
Do whatever makes you happy as long as it doesn't negatively affect others.
So, taking that into context, your comment about just not clipping the bolt while aiding A4 if you want it to be A4 is right on the money, IMO.
Others will feel different, the beauty of the human condition.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 02:02pm PT
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Blowboarder
Coiler is free to have his opinions and his trash talk….behind all his talk there’s also his actions. There’s a lot more to him than meets the eye. His intentions on a whole mean well. His persona and style will some day rub someone who doesn’t know him a very wrong way if not already.
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spectreman
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 03:01pm PT
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Wow, I'm sure glad the great climbing guru "Lambone" is here to tell us all how things should be done.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 29, 2005 - 03:14pm PT
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"Wow, I'm sure glad the great climbing guru "Lambone" is here to tell us all how things should be done.'
opinions are like as#@&%es, everybody has got them...now you have seen mine.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 29, 2005 - 03:22pm PT
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I vote for removing all the fixed hardware in the Valley, lining up all the climbers in El Cap meadow (similar to the great Oklahoma land grab), someone shoots off a pistol, and off we go:
FARFOAA's for everyone, he/she who get's their first sets the tone for that chunk of rock.
Who's with me?
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spectreman
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 06:57pm PT
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I think opinions are one thing and personal attacks are another.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 29, 2005 - 07:04pm PT
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yeah well maybe so, but anyone who drills new bolts on an established route and doesn't expect to get flamed by others is a darn fool.
WDD is one of the next routes on my tick list. If the bolts on the aid section of that route are still there they will be removed by me just like a chicken bolt should be. The bolts which do not affect the original route will be left alone.
peace
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 07:29pm PT
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Well then, I think we should all row a boat across the river from now on….no, no maybe fu-cking start swimming, ha ha ha. The original first crossing was done this way. Those bridges have really altered the route and experience, there're chickensh-t! I think I’ll blow up the first bridge that you’ll have to cross to get to Yosemite. Oh yes and I forgot I have to blow up all the frigging roads too. Everybody walk now. Walking or riding the horse is the right way. Yes Yes this the chosen path. We start tomorrow.
I called up big BURT he said it’s a done deal.
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StyMingersfink
climber
the 51st state.... denial
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Jan 29, 2005 - 07:30pm PT
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werner said:
"
Did Ray Jardine ask the community if it’s ok to do what he did? Harding? Or the multitude of other individuals. There’s no written law saying you have to ask for anything. Where do you guys get it in your heads that there is?
"
Precisely! and what lambone had to say just now is exactly what I was going to offer. Perhaps a crescent wrench will be standard on my lead rack from here on out. Any bolt I feel is worthless shall now hang sans hanger, BEFORE i pass by.
Quit sprayin, start un-boltin.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 29, 2005 - 07:42pm PT
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Werner,
Chicken bolts are bullshit on any route, for whatever the reason. I may be the most vocal in this thread expessing my feelings on them, but I know I don't stand alone in this camp.
Just like the eternal struggle between good and evil, left wingers and right wingers, the Jedi and the Dark side, there will always be those who place chicken bolts and those who chop them. Hopefully less and less climbers will sucumb to the dark side in the future.
If you want to talk about removing the comforts of civilization from Yosemite, I will be the first to sign up on that campaign. It would make the climbing more challanging, but just imagine how much more rewarding. And no lines...
StyMingersfink,
removing the hanger is not the soloution. it's what fills the offending hole that matters.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 07:58pm PT
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Yes Lambone .... I know….
There’s a lot of people who feel that way , then there’s a lot of people who feel the other way. The correct answer is what’s important. It’s there, but hasn’t been given yet on this thread. Who will give it?
Will they say it can’t be done?
Will the wheels keep spinning around and round?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 29, 2005 - 08:47pm PT
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hell, I'd like to hear what you believe to be the correct answer. spill the beans?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 10:26pm PT
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Your're not ready for it yet!
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 30, 2005 - 02:29pm PT
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the correct answer is... well f*#k I don't know werners but mine is f*#king shoot them with a weapon of your choice. A high powered rifle with a scope will do an on the wall job at the offending sackless coward.
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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Jan 30, 2005 - 02:31pm PT
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Heyduke lives in Werner and Burt!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jan 30, 2005 - 02:43pm PT
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"I called up big BURT he said it’s a done deal."
Sadly, here again, I agree with Jody (though actually the climbing community at large probably thinks the same). Yes, you are a wise man, Werner. Before any of us do *anything* we should consult with BURT BRONSON.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jan 30, 2005 - 04:10pm PT
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"Well then, I think we should all row a boat across the river from now on….no, no maybe fu-cking start swimming, ha ha ha. The original first crossing was done this way. Those bridges have really altered the route and experience, there're chickensh-t! I think I’ll blow up the first bridge that you’ll have to cross to get to Yosemite. Oh yes and I forgot I have to blow up all the frigging roads too. Everybody walk now. Walking or riding the horse is the right way. Yes Yes this the chosen path. We start tomorrow."
I think we should just sport bolt the whole thing. I mean that is how most people climb these days and it is way more conveniant for everyone. I mean that is why we built those bridges right? Besides placing gear isn't safe and expecting subsequent parties to do the same sketchy sh#t that you did is outrageous. I think firsta ascent parties should be liable for the safety of the parties that follow. Not drilling bolts where injury is a possibility is simply irresponsible and just creates junk routes for the elite. I shall start with the Bachar-Yerian!
Extremes can be taken in both directions. It will always be an argument about where to draw the line and belittling either side isn't productive at all. There is no 'other' way to have the discussion than to discuss the point at which we decide things are acceptable or unacceptable.
Many years ago one of my best friends wanted to try a route in Zion that I was not comfortable with because of my skill level, and it seemed potentially out of his reach as well. We had no beta on the route other than the guidebook. He had recently scavanged a bolt kit from the free box at school and when I brought up the possibility of one of the pitches being way too sketchy, his response was "well, that is why we will have the bolt kit." I found that totally unacceptable and said as much.
Chicken bolts are a scar and people should be embarassed to ever place them. Hell, people should feel compelled to remove them if they ever put one in. They are going to happen though but if we don't discourage their use then every route will some day be no harder than A2+. I personally may never climb harder than that, but I'm ok with there being routes that I can't do.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2005 - 04:37pm PT
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Bridges were built to cross over to the other side. Remember now….the other side. Nothing to do with convenience unless you are looking at it from a mundane point of view. Not an easy one to see. It can take literally lifetimes to understand the real meaning.
“Extremes can be taken in both directions. It will always be an argument about where to draw the line and belittling either side isn't productive at all. There is no 'other' way to have the discussion than to discuss the point at which we decide things are acceptable or unacceptable.”
That’s very true. My point was never meant to belittle anyone. I was just to show how we sometimes can easily fall into a trap thru our thinking, this applies to myself also. That’s why later I said in relation to the original topic about bolts added to existing aid climbs.
There’s a lot of people who feel that way (bolts added, wrong), then there’s a lot of people who feel the other way (bolts add is ok). The correct answer is what’s important.
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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Jan 30, 2005 - 04:47pm PT
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Werner, I'm going out on a limb here with a guess. The correct answer would be:
IT JUST DOES NOT TRULY MATTER
The world has a way of setting herself straight when it suits her anyway.
Reachin, I know......
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 30, 2005 - 05:00pm PT
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It may not matter to some, but it most definately matters to others...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2005 - 06:08pm PT
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"It may not matter to some, but it most definately matters to others..."
Yes, and to those it does, they need to find the TRUTH, for that will set them free.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 30, 2005 - 07:49pm PT
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{rolleyes}
oh,please...are you on acid or something? Is that why you keep talking about seeing patterns here?
There is only one truth when it comes to those new bolts on WDD, and it is they will soon be gone.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2005 - 08:28pm PT
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Huh? Acid, somebody say acid? Got any more?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jan 30, 2005 - 08:53pm PT
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How this digresses :)
I'd love to hear your actual opinion on this Werner. Somehow I doubt you are an 'anything goes' kind of guy on this issue, though a style zealot you are certainly not, at least not when it comes to other people.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Jan 30, 2005 - 09:28pm PT
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Anyone know what type they are? I wouldn't want to go up there with any more extra gear than necessary to get them out.
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bigwalling
climber
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Jan 30, 2005 - 09:48pm PT
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wtf... all you need is a f*#king adjustable wrench and a hammer.. bring the patching sh#t too. Moof have you ever even chopped a bolt?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2005 - 11:31pm PT
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Spinnmaster
In a nutshell, I’m the guy in the background who’s always trying to bring the best out of you, if your happy then we all benefit. It’s not so much about me, but you. I’m a pretty ordinary intermediate climber who’s had the luck of the draw to be able to hang with the extraordinary. These guys are unbelievable…they and you are the front runners who say and shape the mold. I try and stay out of it…not my bag really. I know where I belong, and I’m happy there.
Werner
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jan 31, 2005 - 12:55am PT
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Werner you and I know that is total bullsh#t. Intermediate climber....I'M an intermediate climber and I struggle on climbs that you free solo. Modesty is fine but I think you are stretching it. I understand if you want to keep your opinion and that is fine but you don't have to fib to do it :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:05am PT
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No fibbing …. its relative, When climbing with the likes of Bridwell, Kauk, Bachar, Bard, Largo, Grammici, Croft etc. you feel like an intermediate very quickly. The soloing doesn't come into play.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:27am PT
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I am an intermediate climber too...and that's why I don't want intermediate trade routes like WDD to be littered with new bolts by the likes of free climbers.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:46am PT
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I just googled Nostroclimbus and he said there will be waves and waves of bolts added to existing intermediate aid routes….the future looks bleak. But on the positive note he said eBay will have killer deals on crowbars.
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Dirk
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:59am PT
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Keep it real. Sometimes I feel like climbers make a big deal about bolts on walls, in order that other climbers may see them complaining, and note how holy they are. I'll start chopping 13's when I start establishing 13's.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jan 31, 2005 - 02:59am PT
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Keep it real!?!? So because I can not and probably will never be able to lead the BnY I shouldn't be pissed if someone adds a bolt or 5? Routes that we can not do provide just as much inspiration as the routes that we can. Holding someone to a standard that I can not hold myself is not keeping it real....
I'm not some rigid jerk who thinks that just because there were mank ass rivets on the Trip for decades that there should always be, or that just because the FA party put in crappy belay bolts cause they were cheap bastards it should always stay that way, but when someone starts adding bolts to pitches so the uber elite can free them or because they are just way over their head I think it is a whole 'nother can of sausages.
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Dirk
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 11:26am PT
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K-Rove, I'm not trying to take away your right to be pist, I think I agree with you. I'm just saying that if a person sprays for weeks about how offended they are to no end about Skull Queen, about the Trip, about Wet Denim, etc., than maybe they are talking to hear their own voice. Honestly, I don't think you talk like that, man.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 31, 2005 - 11:53am PT
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i'm here for he same reason every one else is...fk-u
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:18pm PT
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DMT
Ha ha ha, very insightful.
What a ride this place has been.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:29pm PT
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all that nacy boy hippy crap doesn't change the cold physical reality of steel in granite and the level of disrespect for an original creation that it took to place it there.
jah love
:)
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:43pm PT
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LMAO You guys rock. Yes Dirk of course, incessant spray of any variety is more than anyone should have to deal with.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 01:51pm PT
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Lambone
Did you ask the owner of the universe if you could do all your actions. I’m sure you’ve shown your fair share of disrespect to the owner.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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Werner, i'll take a stab at answers here
by refering to the bridges, etc, are you in anyway plying us to step into the otherside's shoes (or slipper as it were)
if so, i guess that's where the question comes from. i'm a free climber, i spend very little time in slings, and most of that is spent making dumb "free climber" mistakes(like trying to crimp on top of hooks to keep them from shifting).
that said, bolts still rub me the wrong way. i like the idea of having some pieces of rock waiting for the guy who waltzes .12's, 30' out from a nest of offsets. it seems ridiculous now, but all future projects do.
i don't understand the "it has to go now; by me" mentality. if these people are truly trying to do the community a service by creating a "new route that will become popular as standards rise", why not wait until skills rise to the point where it's not a compromise. there will come a time when that line will be the definition of a bold free line, even with out the bolts, why not let that generation "create" the route?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 31, 2005 - 02:04pm PT
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Werner,
"Did you ask the owner of the universe if you could do all your actions."
No, I only asked the Owner of the World. You have to move up the proper chain of command for these things. ;-)
The Owner of the Universe only deals with much bigger issues, like power drilled routes in Wilderness areas.
cheers
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 02:34pm PT
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Trashman
Why not wait?
Jardine didn't, Bridwell didn't, Kauk didn't, Harding didn’t, and these guys didn’t. As far as doing the community a service goes I highly doubt that. The frontrunners will always do the controversial. The fear of death is one of the most powerful illusions. And I’m not talking about a climbing (falling) death type thing.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2005 - 03:40pm PT
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For starters Jardine, Kauk, Bridwell and Harding all had, to varying degrees, a lot more resources left when they were climbing.
i always questioned the line of thinking on the ffa of Geek tower. it's going to happen tommorow, so we might as well do it today?
Careful with that line of thinking, granite is enduring, but in the long run, probably pretty similar to sandstone in the short term. what i'm seeing in zion is a trend towards bolting cracks that don't take protection anymore. so do we bolt all the cracks today, so we can climb them forever?
don't really have any answers here, mainly looking for a barometer of community opinion
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2005 - 03:51pm PT
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Thats why I said the "The fear of death is one of the most powerful illusions"
Good you at least think these things through, instead off flip out right of the spot like some folks here.
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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Jan 31, 2005 - 08:23pm PT
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Dingus, it's obvious that's you're presently high on chaos but it might be useful for you to actually understand a wee bit more about it before using it as your be-all mantra.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Cool thread.
Owner? Owner of what? An old Dodge Dart?
What a lame bunch of crap.
Lambone, don't let off the trigger.
Chop those bolts!!!
I've got patching epoxy for anyone with a good cause.
Vroom Vroom!!!
Retro-Bolt Choppers of America
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OW
Trad climber
Patagonia
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>Here is my layperson's understanding of chaos theory as it >pertains to climbing. I'm sure you will hasten to point out >the numerous ways I am in error:
I won't bother pointing out anything I might perceive as an error. However I will, if you wish, point you to some references that might help you move forward from a layperson's understanding. I'd be very interested (in a decade or three) to see how you've incorporated the historical, ethical, equipment evolutional, etc., aspects of climbing into a chaos theory model. It would be even more interesting to see how much of your layperson's understandings you'd tossed to the wayside.
On the other hand, if you chose to blow all that off and merely solved weather prediction via chaos theory, you'd be much more rich and famous - and would have provided something climbers could really use.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Mar 21, 2007 - 06:54pm PT
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Just read this thread.
So, Werner et al - did the spraylords like Lambone and Coiler ever actually chop dry lycra nightmare?
I recall other posts from one of the first ascensionist. He said he was mightily impressed with Todd Skinner, because Skinner had contacted him to get his input on freeing the route and adding bolts. The FA said to go ahead. I would hope that 'permission' from the FA would put an end to this posturing.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Mar 22, 2007 - 11:58am PT
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bump
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| Messages 1 - 118 of total 118 in this topic |
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