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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 2, 2008 - 02:42pm PT
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All the thread on death run outs (Hd) lately had me thinking about this route. First has it been retro bolted? K-man or Clint would know. We used to do this route as teenagers everytime we went to the Pinnacles. I even made a practice of taking every potential girlfriend I was trying to woo up the thing. For those who don't know the route, it really is an adventure. Nice hike, a short pitch that traverses to great exposure and a belay on a giant knob, then what was a complete death lead on 5.7 vertical Pinnacles knob climbing for about 80? feet. In the day only two old rusty quarter inch bolts (salathe put them in?) protected this pitch. Always sporty and always a great feeling when you finished it. One of the coolest 5.6 or 5.7's I have ever done. Anyone else do this in the day and what is up with it now?
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Orion
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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I did it back in the day, that being a few years ago. It's a great way to finish the day at pinnacles, beers on top of a rock with a great view of the sunset.
I remember it being a pretty interesting lead becuase there were patches of brown where people had recently pulled out knobs. You could not help to think that it might be the time for the knob you where on.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
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I should be more specific......back in the day for me was 1973. I sure hope folks still are not leading on those manky old bolts.....
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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I could be wrong, but I believe Stevie D put a new route up The Hand last year. Any beta on this out there?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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This route?
My first attempt to lead a multi-pitch route, and my first bail off a multi pitch route. Pretty sure that was in '88.
I wasn't so much scared of the manky bolts, as I was scared at the lack of manky bolts.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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The Hand was retro-bolted many years ago, then some folks from Friends of Pinnacles (myself included) replaced the old bolts.
Apparently, Salathe originally lead the thing on pins. To the few climbers of the day, this was an astonishing accomplishment.
I talked to Peter Hann about this, apparently nobody could figure out where he placed *any* pins for pro on that route. I believe he had just two, at the belay.
This is a sad story for me, one for my bonehead collection. I was helping Bruce rebolt the belay by hanging out below the Big Knob that was the belay platform, watching him remove, then hammer in new belay bolts. With not much else to do, I gazed around. Then my eye fell on something out of place. It was a PIN! One of Salathe's original belay pins.
Stupidly, I hammered it out. Then to my surprise, I discovered another, buried even deeper beneath the knob. Stupidly, I hammered this one out too.
Bruce, being the gracious man that he is, talked me into giving him BOTH pins. You see, we'd donate them to the Access Fund, where they could auction them off for Thousand$, and then they'd be able to buy up Mickey's Beach boulder or some such.
Of course, they disappeared as soon as he sent them off to the AF.
On Love Line, SteviDx and I put that up a couple of years ago. Lou Renner helped Stevi with the first 5 bolts, I came in a year later and helped him finish. Pretty cool route, IMNSHO.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Paul's comment is one of the best and funniest quotes I've ever seen about Pinns:
"I wasn't so much scared of the manky bolts, as I was scared at the lack of manky bolts."
Classic.
My leads of this route, and of another Pinnacles 5.6 on The Outcast, scared me more than any A4 pitch I've ever led.
Clint will know if the bolts were replaced, I don't know as I sit here at work, but I'd bet they have been. Kelly Rich, Steve Dalleske and Lou Renner did put up a sensational line to the left of Salathe, also on the Hand. Love Line, two pitches. It's three out of three stars.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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such a good route!
did the first pitch lead, then followed second pitch in like 94? or so
no bolt info in the current guide book is there?
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kev
climber
CA
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Climbed Salathe on the hand a few years back. It hadn't been retro bolted and was super steep (and fun) for 5.6 but really runout.
Also climbed The Back of the Hand a few years ago and it had not been retro bolted and was runout on mediocre rock (pinnacles mediocre) but again super fun.
I REALLY doubt that anyone has retro bolted those since I was last on them or that the community would allow it (I'm thinking some chopping would be in order)
As far as rebolting goes I seem to recall that the bolts were old 1/4 inchers but I'm really not sure so don't count on the accuracy of that.
I'm pretty sure there is a list floating around with what has and needs to be replaced in the pinns floating around. Check with Brad Young. Also might be info on the FOP website. You should prolly also post this on Masters of Mud - people over there would know for sure.
Hope that helps
kev
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Kev, Kelly meant it had been retrobolted decades ago (putting words in your mouth here, Kelly, I hope that's OK). Likely in the 50s or 60s.
Robert, no, the new book doesn't have bolting information (ie types of bolts). Too much of a moving target with the huge amount of rebolting going on. Any such information would have become obsolete in weeks or months. The FA appendix does cover what routes have been rebolted and when the rebolting was done.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 03:46pm PT
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Kelly,
Had you still been my student I would have chastised you for banging out the original Salathe pins (even though the student surpassed the teacher in ability!). One question however, as I am still a little confused, (Brad tried to clear it up), when you lead the second pitch of the Hand do you still have only two manky old quarter inchers?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I didn't know that Marty and Kelly knew each other. Student? Teacher? Can we pry a little for some stories?
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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I will let K-man respond to this one! We know each other well and I have followed and been proud of his climbing acomplishments for years. He might want to tell you how I let my dog destroy his back garden at one point.....
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Noting like passing the buck. I am blaming Sam Davidson for the loss of the Salathe pins. When he was with the Access Fund(AF) he told me all these stories of getting thousands of dollars for one of Harding's original Nose headwall bolts.
So, when Kelly, David Rubine, Brooks White and I replaced all the bolts on the Wilts, Salathe and Burnette routes on the Hand in fall of 1997, I carefully labeled each bolt to idetify it's location. I sent the bolts, pins(sigh) and a topo for identification to the AF.
And you know what? When I asked the AF for a $500 grant a few years later they turned me down!
Bruce
ps - last year I asked the AF if they had any records of where any of that stuff went, but apparently they don't keep records of the donations they have received or what they sold the donations for. So, alas, it appears that a rich piece of Pinnacles history has vanished.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Marty,
Many things I have tried to forget. Then there are many things that I've just plain forgotten. Your dog, however...
One thing is clear in my mind. My first pair of *stinky* climbing shoes. Used EBs with holes in the toes & stitched on leather uppers. Bought for, what, $20 from a true Yosemite hardman.
Student surpass the teacher?? Not true in this case, buddy. Give me a few years, though.
PS. And yes, I hang my head each time I think about removing those pins...And you should have seen the look on Hann's face when I told him.
PPS: Those pictures, that ain't the Salathe route. I think it's the Thumb.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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A long time ago, I used to teach climbing at the state university system. I was all of 22 or something. Kelly Rich was in my first class. It was obvious the guy had ability from the get go. I believe his first trips to the Valley, Leap, Pinnacles and Jtree were in this class. We have been friends ever sense. I rented a room from him in Santa Cruz in the late seventies early eighties (he always had more money than me) and as he was traveling around South America he trusted me with his house. I was at the university and had a dog name Kye. Anyway Kelly was gone for about six or nine months in which time I never cut the grass. It was around four foot high when he returned and Kye had cut trails through the whole back garden. It is one of the only times I have seen him truly pissed. Over the years we have kept in touch and I can really say he is a great person.
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kev
climber
CA
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Brad,
Ahh now I get it. It's a shame so few people do those neat old routes much. There are some wonderful old classics floating around.
kev
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Marty, that's so funny. I remember I had to rent a special lawn mower to hack the four-foot high weeds. That mower, it took down my the small tree I had growing in the front yard. Remember Tim, he just laughed (but he was happy when his shoes were found in the back yard under all those weeds!).
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salad
climber
San Diego
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it was one my first rock climbs. well, first 20 or 30... i led the first pitch. i remember there being an easy, but awkward and commiting move on the traversing section...cant remember if it was before or after the bolt.
that belay block was so cool!
my partner got off route on the second pitch and ended up going up that 5.7 variation that goes kind of straight up. fun and steep.
never made it back to the original finish.
i think i did loveline once too, but not sure, might have just looked at it.
always wanted to try the 50 meter must as well...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Marty,
Kelly answered the retrobolting and bolt replacement questions perfectly. If it wasn't clear, the (single) bolt on the "Burnette Bolt Variation" was replaced with 3/8" in 1997 on the Friends of Pinnacles trip described above.
Paul, the bolts on "Back of Hand" were replaced with 3/8" in around 1995 by Dennis Erik Strom.
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Joe
Social climber
Santa Cruz Mountains/Los Gatos
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Great stories, great routes.
Fifty meter must is another runout. Cleaned a booty biner off it where someone must have said enough.
The Salathe is classic and definitely worth the price of admission. Love Line is a stellar line that commands attention. After my partner followed me on the first pitch, he opted to decline his second pitch lead. Double the pleasure, double the fun. Beware the first pitch is loose.
Lifeline is also worth doing since you're already there.
Raptor closures keep the hand off limits right now. But I recently spoke with the bird man and if there is not sign of nesting, he may open the Hand to climbing early this year.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2008 - 06:57pm PT
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Good for you guys in replacing the bolts. Kelly, of course I remember Tim. He is probably a CEO some where these days.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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K-man, I think you're right I mixed up the routes, it's been awhile.
Even though pinnacles rock is what it is, I still have many fond memories of climbing there. The history of the area and all the big names that climbed there over the decades, the occasional truly classic great climb, the sense of adventure, and that nagging doubt whenever on the sharp end, what should I worry about more, the gear holding if I fall, or the hold breaking and causing me to fall?
And who can't enjoy the classic rope toss tr belay for the small pinnacles?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Kelly,
if it makes you feel any better, my recollection of the events on the Hand was that I remembered the pins from a previous ascent and while I was replacing the belay bolts asked you to knock them out.
Still, I agree it is a shame. I thought we were doing the right thing in helping the Access Fund. Too bad the AF seem to have dropped the ball.
And to think I gave them my 3'x4' poster of Isabelle Patissier for their auction. Now that's a crying shame:-)
Bruce
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"if it makes you feel any better, my recollection of the events on the Hand was that I remembered the pins from a previous ascent..."
Uh Bruce, are you sure?? Those pins were buried under the belay stance, covered in moss and stuff. I could barely see them. You would not have seen them unless you hung under the belay stance like I was, which I seriously doubt anybody has done since the belay bolts were put in. The second pin was obscured by the first, I didn't even see it until after I removed the first one, it was so hidden.
Peter Hann even told me how he looked for them, but could never find them....Not that I doubt you or anything ;-)
Now that poster, that's a real loss!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Kelly,
I went looking for them a few years before and located the first one we pulled, but at the time I didn't have a hammer. I seem to remember that Glen Denny, who placed the 1/4" buttonhead at the belay which we removed, might have mentioned the pin(s) as well.
But, whatever happened, it is too bad that a piece of climbing history has been lost, apparently forever.
Bruce
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Oct 17, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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Came across this recently and reminded me of some early ascents on the Hand. Think this Denny photo of our ascent is around 1960-61. Kelly's blurb about the Salathe pins under the large belay boulder is truly amazing. You would think that Roper would have known. Then again we would have torn up the entire face looking for the pins.
I think Foott and I did the 2nd ascent of the "Back Side of the Hand" and the bolts were horrible.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 17, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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I did the classic Salathe Hand route in 1965 and the back of the Hand then also. I was sixteen at most. I will never forget the Salathe Hand. Really airy and having to belay on the big boulder, pretty exciting. I guess Salathe just might have lead the thing in one long pitch using those pins under the boulder which I never saw, as protection rather than anchors (?) What a horrid place to be, under that thing with that insane overhang below. I was looking for the apocryphal pins above and of course only found old bolts as I wandered through giant lichen, really iffy knobs and generally a steep intimidating 5.6 face pitch. I guess there were a few knobs to sling though. I think I might have too. I guess if you thought the angels were talking to you and would protect you, leading the pitch would go quite a bit more easily. Agreed the back side of the hand is really rotten, shocking actually.
These two scans are from the Richards 1974 Pinnacles Climbers Guide:
Here is Guido's Roper/Guido photo by Denny of the Hand BITD; Guido forgot I restored that image to this one, ridding it of that long scratch etc.:
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Oct 17, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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superb bump considering the recent rain and potential return of the pinnacles season!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 17, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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Tom Frost did the Salathe Route on the Hand as his first lead and it had his undivided attention!
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martygarrison
Trad climber
The Great North these days......
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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Love the pic! Really captures the position. I once took a young girl on her first day climbing of any kind up this thing in her black Reeboks. Her second route was the Rostrum from the notch in the same shoes. I married her.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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Just led the second pitch today and it scared the crap out of me-a lot of back and forth, and then up and down, some deep breathing, a bit of whining. I got it done, in decent "style," and really it was a scary exhilarating 5.6. I was thrilled to finally have done it, and with a dear friend to boot-and the stream bed below it was gorgeous, green and quiet.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 28, 2010 - 01:25am PT
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Great David! It is kind of a 5.6 for 5.10 climbers, isn't it.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 28, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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that may be true Peter, and i am not really a 5.10 climber!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 28, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
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Now you gotta go do the Wilt's bolt variation...
To the left...
Or The burnette variationm, which is like a 100 foot 5.9 gym route with 3 bolts.
PInns season is upon us!!!
Mucci
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 28, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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Great thread. I never saw the Salathe pins on the belay knob. I can't imagine leading that as one long pitch in tennis shoes, with only pins for protection. Wholly apart from the possibility of knobs pulling, that 5.6 seemed rather more difficult than the other 5.6 I'd done.
It's time to head back to Pinnacles!
Thanks for the thread.
John
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 28, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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The bolts and pins that were removed in the rebolting of 1997 have been found! Marty Karabin(thanks for the help in locating them) purchased the bolts from the Access Fund and Gary Neptune purchased the pins. I visited the pins at Gary's Neptune Mountaineering shop in Boulder this spring(they still have the original tape I put on them so I could identify them). The pins are resting well in a cool, dry, place. The sad news is that they appear not to be original 'Salathe' pitons. See the photos below. Anyone else want to weigh in on their origin?
Bruce
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storer
Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
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Oct 28, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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1964, yours truly. Three points of contact?..... Bolt below oozing out?.... Will a knob pop out?....sliding down a cheese grater? Poison oak least of worries!
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 28, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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Good thread, thanks Y'all,
I think I could see The Hand from the top of Yaks Wall last Friday. We did Liebacker's Lullaby (I thing that's the name?) but not until we turned the wrong direction on the approach and did a lot of third and fourth class while dodging poison oak. Word to the wise- turn left when you reach the top of the wall from the slabs. Yes, just like the guide book says. We then could not get the rope to pull at all after the rappell. So we hiked back around pulled it from the top and went down to finish the day at the Monolith. Anyway it is cool over at Yaks and I want to go back. Gotta go to The Hand now as well.
Climb on!
Zander
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 29, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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Bump. Anybody have any info to add about the photo of the pitons from the first pitch of the Salathe?
Bruce
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HighTraverse
Social climber
Bay Area
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Oct 29, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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I never thought I'd say this, but I've finally seen something that makes my local crags look solid.
that makes me smile.
Trouble is at the Pinns you can't tell which holds are mank. They all look bad (well, some worse than others). 90% of them are fine. Good luck identifying the 10% that will blow if you load them. They usually lurk with a smirk hoping you'll give a mis-directed tug.
Another problem is the so-called "adhesive" matrix absorbs water and softens in the rain. Best to wait for a couple of warm sunny days after a rainstorm.
I don't get to the Pinns often enough. So on routes that require a good pull on runout I often chicken out on lead. cluck-cluck.
Back to the The Hand:
Did it once, BITD when it was REALLY seldom done. A few feet above the first belay I pulled a large knob handhold out.....and 4.5 milliseconds later my other hand pulled a knob!
Krikey!
Somehow managed to catch two other handholds. There must have been a brief cessation of Gravity at that moment.
Got to the summit and a few minutes later an "old gent" arrived soloing. Claimed he was Salathe. Salathe was in fact staying in the bay area at the time. Have always wondered if he was for real or just joking.
Gotta go back and climb the Hand again.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 29, 2010 - 03:34pm PT
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Bruce,
Thanks for locating the pins at Neptune's (with help from Marty) and posting the photos. I agree, probably not pitons made by Salathe'. The ring one is not hard steel (since the tip is bent), and for the other one, I don't know of any "vertical" type pitons which are confirmed to be made by Salathe'.
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Barry Bates
Boulder climber
Smith River CA
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Oct 29, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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K-MAN
Sometime in the early 70's I was climbing at the Pinns and ran into Robbins. We spent the day doing some routes together, he told me about the salathe pitons under the belay knob on the hand. At the time I thought about retrieving them but just never got around to doing the route again. Recently I've wondered what ever happened to them being collectors items now days. I'm surprised they were left undisturbed for so many years.
Salathes first ascent was certainly impressive protected by pitons in bad rock and climbing in high top tennis shoes.
Peter, Thanks for the pictures out of the old Roper guide they bring back such great memories.
Barry
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Rick Gustafson
climber
Eureka,California
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Apr 16, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
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It was great to see this climb, brings back some great memories. Although for me as a climber in the early 70s this wasn't the most difficult climb in Pinnacles but it surely was the most precarious. My first climb of the Hand I followed a climbing party working on the new(at the time) Chuck Richards climbers guide. I later returned to lead this climb with Richard Harrison following. Does anyone have experience on the South Yak.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 12:14am PT
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Rick I think I did So. Yak, but is now ever so long ago. I mean....more than fifty years now.
Barry, damn. I had no idea those Salathe pins were under that giant knob/embedded boulder when I was up there. I did the sucker when I was in high school, so maybe 1964-1965. Just looking down was hard enough. I was a child.
I remember the event of someone "finding" them in recent years and kicked myself then as well. How fun that RR knew of them all that time. RR loved provenance and although in later times he would gather up some of our historical goodies, mostly he respected and enjoyed it, hoping it would stay in situ.
If you think of it, the pins were in the correct vector: if a leader fell, the pull would have been upward of course with those couple things in on that lead and maybe some knobs too. John must have had a knob above him for a kind of accommodation support especially when starting out on the last pitch. ((Don't forget there were several established lines to take on that final pitch)). What a freak, John. As I remember that embedded boulder is at the apex of a very long overhang in crappy rock of course, kooky exposure, and to have found spots for pins DOWN THERE.... is just otherworldly for back then.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 17, 2014 - 01:52am PT
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well said Peter
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 17, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Anybody have any tales of woe on the old route on the backside of the Hand. It made the classic Salathe route look like a cakewalk. I remember Foott and I were pretty uncomfortable with this route and the horrible bolts. That would have been 1960 or so.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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The back of the Hand was really rotten. I did the sucker and was thinking it was actually more daunting than the classic route on the other side. It was quite dangerous though far less steep and sweeping.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Apr 17, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
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On an ice cold Jan. 1st did Hand with Crile C. Out of my sight line, I heard him mutter "Oh Lord, I haven't served you like I should"
Classic. The little stream was still frozen on the hike out.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
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No kidding Clinker. It can get quite cold there. I hated that campground; it was even colder.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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No kidding Clinker. It can get quite cold there. I hated that campground; it was even colder.
Agree, Peter. Our water bottles froze one December in 1970, and our hands tried to do the same the next morning. To add to my misery, I'd bought a new pair of PA's, and was breaking them in (or more accurately, breaking my feet in). I can't recall face climbing ever being so painful before or since.
John
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
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agreed on the back of the hand. I think I got lucky with p2, iirc.
On the Salathe, I got p1. Probably lucky there too.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 17, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
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I did Back of The Hand a year ago.
I recall it has a couple of new replacement bolts. Not to be confused with new bolt placements.
The traverse was really scary but in fact not hard and pretty safe.
Definitely a fun climb.
Perhaps all the crud has been pulled off??
Crossing the rivulet at the reservoir inlet on our way back we saw a swimming rattler. I think he was in the water to cool off. Our biggest hazard that day was dehydration and/or heatstroke!
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