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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:16pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:17pm PT
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What's the defining factor?
A dual purpose compromise.
Essentially a traditional climbing boot, with ankle support and enough heel and tread combination to accommodate realistic traction.
Distinct from the technical approach shoe, because it is not based on a running shoe platform, but is instead a slightly tweaked climbing boot. The choice is largely personal. The five tenny style platform proves to climb very well and does pretty much the same thing. On course, large grain rock, such as the quartz monzonite of Joshua Tree, when sized tightly, that kind of shoe will perform well easily into the 5.10 range and even 5.11 and harder. In contrast, the Klettershoe will favor edging on the rock and traction in the turf.
From a functional technical perspective, the limitation is that you lose sensitivity when you size it large enough for substantial walking comfort. The advantage is largely aesthetic: the simplicity and elegance of the minimal approach: just you and the shoes on your feet.
For me, the idea and execution of the Klettershoe runs a wide range; from a lightweight mountain boot to a sophisticated rock boot, the latter with its minor adaption of heel and tread.
A light weight tight fitting mountain boot is my choice for a long day in the mountains, approaching long distances and soloing 5.6/5.7 rubble in the high peaks where snow travel is likely.
The middle weight, traditionally stiff Klettershoe, I like for scouting boulders out in the woods where steep grassy slopes, scree and spontaneous 5. 8 highballing are on the menu.
The lightest versions, I fit pretty much like a climbing shoe, but the heel and tread makes knocking around an easy bouldering circuit less inhibited; particularly the type situated in mountainous terrain.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Mar 29, 2008 - 02:46pm PT
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Green Shoenards!
Damn those were nice edging machines. Henry's favorite for a while too. Breashears used to like 'em as well....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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Yes John!
Remember a lot of people used to resole them with green dot rubber.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
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The Trango Extreme
Ice climbing boot? Forget that. I'm not doing any rad mixed or figure fours. I like edging around on sharp high country rock while carrying a very light pack. If I'm front pointing, I use plastic boots for ankle and calf support.
These 1990s versions were handmade Italian leather. They were much more sophisticated than the green Trango's. This boot has a better rocker, more articulated toe and a moderate asymmetrical design. I put the toes to a grinder and removed the protruding crampon catch, so they edge better when pointing a toe straight in.
I put big miles on these babies and they kick steps really nicely. It takes snow seal well and an ankle gaiter completes the package.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Mar 29, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
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Green dot on shoenards the best until that "guy" brought in those Fire thing a magigys.....I always wanted a pair of those Kaulkulator Drus, to wear with socks on snowy climbs at the leap, but never found a pair large enough. How "Dru" you like them Tarbuster?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Mar 29, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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I hated it when my Marwas finally died. I hiked in them and climbed 10c friction in them.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 02:56pm PT
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I will like the Dru better after I have a proper quarter sole added up front. What I like most about them is they are fairly sophisticated in terms of the last and toe box.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:06pm PT
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Robbins Boot
I went through three pair of these in the 90s. I would get them used at the Boulder Sports Recycler. Before I got into the Trango Extreme, this was my all-around big day mountain boot, primarily used on long ridge traverses. Eventually the steel shank always breaks and then it sounds like you're walking around on beer cans!
All three pair got new rands and soles. Look closely at the Vibramsole style above. I really liked it; the cleats were nice and flat(broad with a low profile), with a good spacing and the rubber was on the softer side as compared other Vibram products. A really nice klettersole.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:26pm PT
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Garmont Vetta
I've been really happy with these. The Trango Extreme affords more toe protection for kicking steps and bouncing off of rocks on the trail. The Garmont is definitely lighter weight than the Trango Extreme, lighter than the Robbins boot and quite a bit softer than both. This is a rock boot and is hardly stiff enough for a crampon; yet the new version has rapid fix heel which is a good idea. Likely, the best crampon to mate with this boot is the Grivel aluminum. The sole pattern is pretty sophisticated too, with a good patch of flat, smooth rubber under the edging/smearing zone.
In these boots I was soloing a route on Crestone Peak and I chose a direct finish; opting for a span of rock which Jerry Roach said "would be very hard indeed". I found myself doing steep 5.7 toe pointing in friction pockets, on a steep north face wearing gloves. The boot translated that footwork quite well.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Voyager Directissima
These boots are the cornerstone of my collection. They are essentially a Vasque copy of a Kroenhoffer. They are sleek and elemental in their design and execution. I really dig the Marwa Innsbrucker Klettersohle. The cleats are low profile and the array really works on steep turf; it's a nice compromise for a fully cleated sole that works well on rock too.
They're just too hard for a lot of walking. They are best suited to scrambling and light bouldering; but, with a better fit and a resole of smooth rubber, I could climb like Higgins!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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holy cow Tar, lemme eat lunch and tighten down the bolts in my neck - this should be fun.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
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Double D
climber
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Mar 29, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Darn Tar-baby, why do they all look so good?
That brought back many a shoe-inspired memories!
This is the start of the “Don’t Skate Mate” pitch. Notice the shoes… (Pevetta Muir Trails?) hiking boots with wood screws holding the sole on. At the time, I had worn out my wall shoes and couldn’t afford new ones so I “borrowed” my brother’s favorite pair of hiking boots and screwed on the soles to keep them together!
Just past this point I made a top-step hook placement off of a very manky alumi-head and when I got up to it, it had nearly skated off the edge it was on so I quickly top-stepped again to a blind hook placement that was worse. The basic premise of aid climbing is to do just what the Bible says, “Test all things and hold fast to what is good.” This was the only time in my life I preceded up an aid pitch without the security of testing…hence the name, "Don't Skate Mate."
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:19pm PT
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Vasque Shoenard
Paydirt here.
Nobody has confirmed this for me, and scuffyb is the in-house expert on this stuff, but before this was the Shoenard I swear it was called something like the Vasque Tarantola.
People climbed a lot of hardshit in these boots. I never liked them for hard rock; too clunky. The high-profile toe box doesn't fit into cracks.
A few years back I took them out for a late fall juggernaut in Rocky Mountain National Park. This involved a lot of hiking and eventually some soloing up on Arrowhead and McHenry's; the best part was being splayed out on cool stemming edges while quietly yanking down on some nice finger locks.
I used a thin insole to provide some cushion; oddly the wear point was the black ankle patch which began to dig in by the end of the day.
The tread pattern is some of the coolest I've seen. If the rubber were a tad softer that would be a winner as far as klettersole goes. Even today that would be a cutting-edge tread pattern.
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john hansen
climber
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Mar 29, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Yes ,, but what do you use on your left foot?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:27pm PT
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Why, on that foot I use a modern downturn slipper John, to compensate for all this board lasted stiffness!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:33pm PT
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Hey Double D,
Nice post!
Now that's an extreme Klettershoe story.
I think those Muir Trails made their way up onto quite a few walls.
In a way that was the boot that got me into all of this; not so much because they climb well, which they don't, but they're really well-made and I like using them for stabbing into scree on approaches.
All these shoes look pretty good because I've acquired them within the last 10 years.
By that means which people in the collection community might call a "barn/garage find", or the "closet purge".
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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Sportiva Mega
I've had these for about 10 years. Clearly I modified with a quarter sole. Like all of these boots, they are board lasted so they are comfortable but not super precise.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:49pm PT
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Sportiva Dru
This is pretty close to state-of-the-art. I never had a pair of Kaukulator's, but the Dru feels very much like the slip lasted Syncro. Check out the toe box and the way the toe doesn't lift upward; not quite down turned, but aggressive. They're also narrower than the Mega, which for me translates to performance.
What I don't like about this design is the sole: the cleats are too deep and there isn't enough of an edging/smearing platform upfront, especially on the outside edge. So I'll be adding a quarter sole of modern rubber, then they will be good to go.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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OK Ray,
I've dusted off the plate.
You are up to bat!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 05:18pm PT
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OK, first this, then all the
way down...
here's an interesting one from Scarpa
Neptune's had these as sorta their "aid-boot" and I guess for certain types of those environments it would be fine.
It's more Approach oriented than Climbing
but is surprisingly nimble on rock, though for me, if I were as fit as ever, I might use these up to easy 5th class or so.
Where this boot excels is with a long-ish Indian peaks style
approach hike, then coupled with a new-matic style set of spikes
especially those new aluminum ones from Grivel, then moderate snow on up to the 4th class terrain and the summit.
The boot hikes well and seems like the design intent was for Via Ferrata type stuff - interesting sole huh? Pretty sticky too.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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The boot has an nice lacing system, low profile,
plus the color and over-all "look" make it
good for bar-hopping as well.
First thing I do is yard the stock foot-bed,
if there is enough volume inside,
then add a Superfeet green to enhance fit, warmth etc.
This type of thing isn't really a full-on spring couloir
boot per say, but have backed off the laces and spent
part of a spring night in them w/ bivi-sac protection,
the warmth was A-OK.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
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though I sure didn't get to do enough testing
on these, initial feed back is two thumbs up
Feather light, strong and many times more
reliable than the aluminum spikes of yesteryear.
Adds a fair bit of stiffness to any hiking
boot, or ski boot, or just about whatever.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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it may take me a little while to get my notes and thoughts
together for the next post -
the stuff more like "rock shoes with heels";
hybrid type kletter shoes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 06:43pm PT
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Probably because that was similar in a generational sense to the molded EB's, which were a tragedy.
You gotta get up pretty late in the morning to pull one over on me...
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Bazo
Boulder climber
Ky
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Mar 29, 2008 - 06:58pm PT
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Those RR's bring back memories....Very, very stiff hiking boots with a rand.
My first climbing shoes...I didn't realize how wrong they were for what I was doing until I finally picked up a pair of EB's. Now that was an epiphany...
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 07:10pm PT
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Roy,
Another guy who swore by the Shoenards, and could climb anything in them,was Pete Steers.
Double D?
The great Bardini finally revealed on ST! Post some more pictures! Hope you're doing well.
Rick
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:32pm PT
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Damn that is one hell of a shoe fetish! ;)
But then again I might have found some people I can relate to since I own more "climbing shoes" than regular ones.
Keep it up, please.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:36pm PT
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feeling better now
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 08:40pm PT
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Shoe fetish -right
Mighty Hiker, over on the Croft thread, just called me Imeldabuster.
That's just a bit of an exaggeration, I mean, sorta...
This is along the lines of the do it all footwear that Paul Petzolt used on his first trip up the Grand Teton:
(The tall ones I got resold with green dot style rubber)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 29, 2008 - 08:51pm PT
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That was only coz you tried to shoe-jack the thread! Nyah nyah!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 08:56pm PT
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I guess I need a pair of Tricouni hobnails.
Gee, I wonder how well they heel hook?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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I'm gonna kick this off with some pics of related samples -
Rock Shoes with Heels
Scarpa Tradmaster -looks like a textury ribbed thing, might help on pine-needles?
approaches?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:27pm PT
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and interesting idea from evolve
not a heel, the way it looks -
like a kind of "mid" sole
or "mid" out-sole?
pipe up if I'm using the wrong terms please.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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I'm calling this one a hybrid:
the blend of two ideas
shoe>rock shoe
the heel is there,
and the forefoot is all business
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 10:32pm PT
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where is this leading?
comments on the above ideas
designs - what folks think?
is a mix of features for long
rock routes a functional thing?
is it Bullsh*t?
what?
we can be as idealistic as we want.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 11:40pm PT
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Ray,
Although they are not board lasted with ankle protection, the samples you posted up are essentially modern climbing shoes with some provision for walking.
So in a very raw critique of what the Klettershoe is or does, those hit the mark; they are an example of modern Klettershoe.
Perfect place to start, then we decide what functional criteria or demand exists to move to something with say, ankle protection and/or a more substantial heel.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 11:45pm PT
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In any of these designs, one construction choice which really affects performance is this idea you pointed out in the other thread(talking about the five tenny style shoes) where the space right under the toes is kept free of cushy foam rubber.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 29, 2008 - 11:46pm PT
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thought I'd start "light" then
build up - I'm w/ you:
ankle protection/perhaps board
last OR - removable insole.
Not for mixed - these dry weather
all-day "adventure rock" shoe idea:
for the F.A., all day - approach
and descent - not saying the above
hits it - wonder if folks like it?
or if something perhaps missing?
U R right - Kaukulator Dru very close, IMO.
(think my bolts may be loosening again)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2008 - 11:55pm PT
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Good stuff.
Hey, remember in Star Trek when the lady computer would say "working"?
Ha ha.
That's what I'm doing.
You set a good minimal baseline with those models...
I saw a Boreal big wall boot on the wall at Neptune yesterday.
It had a completely smooth sole, which is idiomatic of a big wall boot, but what I saw that I liked was what appeared to be a thin wool lining.
I'm pretty sure that's been around for a while; might have been called the inferno or in inverno. I looked at low cut rock shoes with the same thing.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:04am PT
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as usual what I want is not quite available
but I'll mess w/ some images and post some stuff
up to share my nerd-ass thoughts, perhaps tomorrow.
alright, where's my wrench...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:35am PT
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The first rock shoes I had were grey ones, that looked a bit like the Voyager Directissimas. Purchased maybe 1972, more or less an imitation of the Robbins shoe. Unlike the Voyagers, the had a rand. I think they were made by Salewa or someone like that? Then I had Robbins shoes, but soon after the EB appeared. So for a long time the Robbins shoes got used for aid and mixed climbs, and the EBs for free.
I also had some yellow shoes that looked like the Voyager Directissimas, but didn't like them as much as the Robbins shoes. Edit: Yes, the Vasque Ascenders.
Tricounis and hobnails were before my time, though.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Mar 30, 2008 - 01:53am PT
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Yeah Roy, I loved my Vasque Ascenders ( just after Shoenards) and they took me up many a route from "Terrible Face" at Santee, to multiple Cap. rts...
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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Hey Mike,
Vasque Ascenders were my first climbing shoes and I thought they were great. As an aside, Steve Wunsch's favorite climbing shoe was also the old green shoenard.
Curt
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Mar 30, 2008 - 02:47am PT
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Yeah Curt! They were wicked for steep edging!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Mar 30, 2008 - 06:21am PT
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Great thread!
How did the "green" Shoenards differ from the tan (with yellow laces) version, other than color? I remember my dad having one pair of the the green ones but he'd bought several pairs (at once) of the tan model then later mourned cause they weren't available in the late 1980's. He also had a blue gray shoe with the same sole tread pattern but called by another name. ( Vasque?)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2008 - 10:55am PT
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Jen,
My understanding from others on this forum, namely Jaybro, is that the green model has a steel shank, and the later tan version has a plastic shank.
Not sure of any other differences; they may be exactly the same in terms of the last, but my vague impression is that the green model is narrower.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 30, 2008 - 12:58pm PT
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some thoughts on the preponderance of low-top rock shoes:
Recall in the early '90's going into bike shops here in Boulder looking for single speed bike, a simple cruiser. Basically it seemed like the pendulum had swung to fat tire and getting shocks to work/accepted was the main emphasis.
Road bike availability was slim and cruisers were virtually not to be found, around here (at that time) anyway.
Now it's different, pretty much all the categories are phat and there's really good selection of all styles.
To me, this is an indicator - better selection, better understanding of the market coming - to rock shoes?
I don't know but, think the support/protection of hi-top styles is functional and needed.
Or, maybe I'm just an Old F.O.S. futz - maybe.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Mar 30, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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My memories are in line with Tarbusters, the greens were narrower, had a steel shank and edged better than anything this side of a black beauty.
Word on the street is that the lifetime garauntee on the steel shanked-greens was what did them in. Seems that some, unscrupulus types (not naming any names, but one professor of Mechanical engineering in montana knows who he is...) took a chisel to them about the time the sole wore out, just to get free replacements.
I've got Dru's, Blue meanies and somewhere, megas, great shoes all!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 30, 2008 - 05:43pm PT
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Yeah, the Green ones had a metal shank and the Tan had plastic. The tan model also came in widths. I had a pair of 11 Shoenards that hurt pretty badd; then I picked up a pair of Ascenders in 10.5 Wide that fit better than any others-- I climbed at Black Mountain in those even after I got my first pair of Fires.
Kletterschuhe is just German for climbing shoes. Many of the models called "kletters" were actually pretty soft. Kronhofers could be had (at least in Europe) with either a soft midsole that made them a smearing shoe or a stiff midsole that made them better for approaches and edging.
I have a pair that Dan Asay made me-- and yeah, once work calms down I'll post pix. I love mine. But I doubt there's a market for remakes, outside of a tiny slice of the already microscopic big wall market. Even in the Dolomites, where they are really functional, shoes that look more like tennis shoes are taking over.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 30, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
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RE:
"Even in the Dolomites, where they are really functional, shoes that look more like tennis shoes are taking over."
and for folks who want something special, take 'em to the cobbler, same as ever and that's cool too. Not that there's anything "wrong" with the new thing etc.
thanks klk
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Mar 30, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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A gift for you Tarbrother. Photo I got from Doug Robinson and started to make into a flyer back in the 90's.
Shot is of The Man, our Sierra guiding forebear, Norman Clyde. These are some f*ckin Boots, and just ponder where they tread...
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Mar 30, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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Norman's boots look a lot like Raffi's.
Ken
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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I am most impressed that Tar has maintained that personal collection. The climbing lifestyle generates a lot of centrifugal force--I found my life constantly being pared down to a minimum.
Not only do I no longer have my Shoenards, Paragots, Kronhofers or Ascenders, I have no idea when I lost them or how or where.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 30, 2008 - 08:19pm PT
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think the nails are comin' back for sure!
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Mar 30, 2008 - 11:47pm PT
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Tricouni, edging...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 31, 2008 - 01:29am PT
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I did a lot of alpine rock climbing in the tan shoenards. Even strapped crampons on them a couple of times for short sections. Loved them. Also used to wear them for route grubbing at Squamish, and found they were comfortable in aiders. And after I had stealth rubber grafted on to the front end, I could climb almost as hard in them as in whatever other rock shoes I owned. They pretty much wore out, but I found an unused pair in a second-hand shop recently, and Locker says he's mailed them back to me with the new rubber on the soles...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:34am PT
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I appreciate the information guys.
I saw these on ebay this morning in men's size 9D:
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2008 - 11:43am PT
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Scuffyb's selection presented during our Mount Woodson gathering last year:
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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Steel shank notwithstanding, I believe the biggest difference
between the two Vasque Ascenders (green vs. brown) is the thick-ness of the plastic midsole/insole.
The green ones had a thick layer, 1/4" or maybe thicker, uniform,
heel to toe.
I pulled that unit out of one pair, ground it down in the fore
foot so that it tapered to nothing, and reassembled the shoe,
with a Nitrene sole. The shoe seemed wider because of the extra
room, though the change was actually in interior height rather
than width.
I think that was the actual difference between the two models.
I modified that pair before the brown ones were introduced.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:58pm PT
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that's way cool guys - rock on
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Mar 31, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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Regarding the photo in Tarbuster's post...
left to right
Pivetta Spider. Specifically for climbers. Very stiff. More
midsole than a Cortina, which was the unlined Pivetta used by
Bob Kamps for many years. The Spider was also much narrower than
the Cortina
Kronhoffers with rands and Nitrene sole, modifications made in
1974
Kronhoffers with a stickier sole. No other mods.
Can't find my nearly-perfect Directissimas.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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closest I had to a "real" kletter shoe
was a Pivetta Muir Trail,
think it was lined, padded in ankle/cuff -
very closely trimmed Vibram sole, kinda thin as
I recall - great boot.
gee, might need a trip to the Neptune boot museum
pretty soon
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Denver, Colorado
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:20pm PT
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Lowe Pinnacle/Little Finger-1976-5.10c Hartmans Rocks Gunnison, Tom Pulaski new Vasques
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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handsome foot-wear there,
geek free,
beautiful.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Mar 31, 2008 - 06:40pm PT
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I too pulled the midsole out of the green Shoe-Nards. Soft as slippers they became, before there were rock slippers, and my favorite guiding shoes for a season or two.
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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The Red Spider was Pivetta's knock-off of the Robbins Boot.
The Muir Trail was the successor to the Cortina, but it was
lined, a very comfortable hiking boot for its time.
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Nice photo, Tar, of Scruffy's booties. I, too, started off with a pair of Muir Trails, but eventually justified getting a pair of boots solely for climbing. Here's a vintage pair of authentic kletterschuhe. Note that this pair of Kronhoffers still has the original sole and (I believe) the original laces:
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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...wandered out to the junk room looking for some ballistic cloth to patch my crash pad. In the box, I found two pair of pristine Gallenkamp Scats. Both priced, on sale, for $9.97. Totally forgot I even had them!
Scats. Truly the shits!
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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veddy interesting. . .
Gosh, I got into it with my RR's, then went to
PA's, EB's and then Fires. . .
but no kletterschue. . .
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Your last entries are stunning, Robs.
The Kronies have to be on their original sole for the uppers
to be that nice.
The Semperit KletterSuper.
Tarbuster's Directissimas surprise me a little.
All the Directissimas I've seen, and some Kronhoffers as well,
had the Marwa Klettersohle. Tarbuster's have the Semperit
Klettersohle which has the double row of lugs in the middle.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 02:53pm PT
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The Scats were phenomenal.
Really sticky rubber.
I think what makes a running shoe work is the degree of stiffness in it. The overall construct of a running shoe being a little bit squishy due to the soft uppers and foam midsoles; finding something with some stiffness, or adding that by resoling it with climbing rubber really helps to support the foot on an edge, yet you still benefit from some overall comfort over a climbing boot.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2008 - 02:58pm PT
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Look again stuffy,
The pictures I posted up show the Marwa sole.
Are we nerdly or what?
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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Thanks for the prompt, Roy.
Looking again would have been a good thing to do.
Trying to figure out what I was thinking, I think I
was fixated somehow on the soles of your Robbins
Boots, which are unusual.
Your directissimas, of course, have the same sole they all did.
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scuffy b
climber
up the coast from Woodson
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OK, a little story to tie some ends together, or just reinforce
people's opinions , or something...
8 years ago, I was going through the consignment store in
Jackson Hole when I spotted some Kronhoffers. No glue on the
toes. A small hole worn through the toe of one. Pretty small
looking. Hmmm. Size 3 1/2B. Hmm. Vibram/Shoenard sole.
Whoa. Hold it right there.
I'd held that pair of shoes in my hand, in 1975, in that exact
condition. I had resoled them in 1974, for Sherrie McVoy.
The sole had come from the green Shoenards which I dissected and
modified for Dale Bard.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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Kronie's show up in unlikeley places...
1972, "Silent Running" a sci-fi w/ Bruce Dern:
(just watched it & nabbed these 'screenshots)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 18, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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Scats were the inspiration for Charles Cole's original Five Tennie.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 18, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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these brown scats have me confused. every pair of scats i ever owned -- and i must have gone through a dozen -- were blue, with a blue rubber that was super lightweight, almost like a very, very hard foam. and there was no rubber layer up around the toe like you see in rob's scats, at least not that i remember?. rob, what year did you buy these? they look totally different from any i've ever seen.
fwiw, the scats i ran were every bit as good as e.b's for most routes. when they were right out of the box they had phenominal edging power. i did many hard routes at suicide in them, the south face of the throne in baja, all the hard faces and cracks up at woodson. at 16 bucks a pair i wore them not so much for the burn-off factor but because they were so much cheaper than e.b.s, and a lot easier to con my mom into buying for me!
scats -- the original "accidental kletterschue."
edit: ok, i think i may have had a brown pair -- could be false memory -- however, all i truly concretely recall is blue.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Apr 18, 2009 - 06:59pm PT
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What a fun thread! Just today I had all my climbing shoes out playing with them. Lined them up. Oogled. Tried them on. Oogled. Wondered why I'd not been wearing many of them.
During this fun, it occurred to me how interesting a shoe thread would be and voila - here is one.
Thanks for bringing this back!
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Apr 18, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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Hey, Bob. I probably got those in the mid-seventies at some point about the time that Gallenkamps was clearing them out. KP is the real expert on Scats; as I recall he had a truck-load of them suckers. I bought my last ones for $5.00 a pair. They certainly were the stiffest "running shoe" ever designed! Man, I've seen clear pine 2"x4" framing that was softer...
Oh, those aren't rubber rands on those Scats; that there is Shoe Goo smeared over all that split leather. I don't recall any other color than brown but I bet Gallenkamps tried lots of ways to sell those, so there may have been other colors. Anyone?
Back then, we were always searching for cheap ways to get a climbing boot. I remember someone grinding all the tread off their Scats—was that Dimes, too? Graham and I climbed Etude (on Suicide Rock) not too long after we did the FAs on Flower of High Rank. I distinctly recall following Etude with a pair of EBs resoled with some crępe rubber that a cobbler down in Corona del Mar ground smooth for me. That crux was desperately hard in that experiment!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 18, 2009 - 08:08pm PT
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The Scats that Charles showed me were dark blue.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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Yeah, I still have a tape of Silent Running.
Bruce Dern used to frequent West Ridge back in the early 70s. He was an avid runner.
They bought those Kronhofers for the movie at West Ridge.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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you guys forgot RDs.
Robin Williams used to wear PA's in "Mork and Mindy"
Cassin had some mean light footwear made for him, as well as some heavier boots, i have a pair given to me by Norm Kingsley, they are black, sorry no photo I'm at work still.
Hey Don! I'm sure Phil Warrender would want to say Hello, I'm writing from the harness factory.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 02:28am PT
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and, what about the almost Kletter great aid shoe?
Nike Lava dome with 5.10 rubber plus a good dose of plastidip?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Tarbuster,
this thread is way old now , , ,Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 29, 2008
Wow and yaowzzas, After 40+ years and 20 on a bad ankle, the big toe on my altered right foot is wearing out ~ Stiffies like that are what Ive been looking for. are yo small footed? are you selling any of those kicks?
I need a pair in an off size Like 39.5 left & 39 right?
& . . . .My Robbin's Blue suede Yos,boots were the victims of a boiler explosion, that coated everything with asbestos dust, sayonara, old Relics o' mine.
They were way to heavy but i had them perfectly broken in.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
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Sorry, Gnome, I'm not selling any of my stiff boot stash.
None of them are of the size you're looking for anyhow.
I still like fairly stiff shoes, even just for walking.
I can't get very far wearing soft shoes anymore.
Evolve built a pair of shoes for me with a really nice full-length shank.
The shank was made from an excellent material and fairly thin so it didn't hamper sensitivity too much. Edging demons, based on an older model called Bandit. Those would have been perfect for you, but I sold them. I'm not sure whether they are doing custom work any longer, but that would be something you might try.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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GCF, I did the same thing, when I saw others blowing out the toes, I went to the foot vices
I hated these, EBs but then in the late 80s I had them resolved in sticky rubber, I was a la sportiva Mega wearer for years.
Hey now, Tar,
had to ask. Thnx. I'm making do with a rotating bunch of shoes, all second hand. Manly Sportiva's . Because they are board lasted. Also they are a size big; 40s. I put a custom fit orthotic in at least the right shoe, in sportiva's and in both of the Five 10 lace-up Mocasims. I think I'm through stuffing my feet into Anasazi slippers.:~[
I exploded my right heel in 94' was able to dance at my wedding in 97' the Doc had plans to fuse the foot to the ankel. a mid-evil procedure where a bolt is placed diagonally thru the heel
& ankles' joint. I declined and have climbed hard till 2013 when I had my second climbing injury in 40 yrs. Coming back from legdging out has been slow & frustrating.
Bread , carbohydrates, are addictive.
[- - ] I am not bumping just yet, I'm on to this pair but they are a full size to big like my
only the new used usable shoes.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 18, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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I so wish there was some way to figure out the actual fit?
I'm not going to try, & have not received any response from email, so
to many variables and not enough confidence in the unknown nature of the provider.
also they are a 1/2 size big, (40.5) when the smaller of my feet is more a size 39,
I have sat on these for a few weeks
I hope that someone who needs these gets them
and then resells them when the juvies laugh at them
I'll be waiting My feet are so spent and it has started to take its toll on my knees.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 18, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
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Resole?
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 18, 2016 - 07:33pm PT
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I did my first technical climb in Pivetta Muir Trail hiking boots; later I heard that Chuck Pratt actually did some hard routes ( "old" 5.9)in the same shoes. Anyone have more definite information?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
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Gnome:
Those blue mega look brand-new!
Keep in mind you will definitely want to resole the front half or third with some real rubber.
Also, probably harder to find, the Kaukulator Dru, more of a brown color, have a MUCH more sophisticated last, but still board lasted.
............................................
I guess I have heard something like that about Pratt, can't say for sure.
I had a pair of those gray Muir Trails. Love them for hiking, wore them on one wall, can't imagine doing hard free moves in them!
Yours all,
TarMelda
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Apr 19, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
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Great thread revival!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
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Haan was right bump
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 28, 2019 - 09:04am PT
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Jesus H Christ, Taredandfeatheredbabybuster, you got got more footwear than Imelda Marcos!!
--Walleye
Muir Trails...bought a pair in Fresno in '68 and wore them into the ground.
Yer right that they weren't for real tough moves, even with that Vibram sole.
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