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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 5, 2008 - 04:22am PT
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hey there all....
seems everyone in the tv and movie world is fast to honor entertainer (some of which can be fine folks, so i am not knocking them, just adding a note)... yet, folks like these guys/gals are over-looked.... some of these skiers, though, were snatched up for an abbot and castello movie, too, which some of us, as kids, may have remembered:
http://www.micmacmedia.com/Sierra_Stories/10th_Mtn_Division/10th_mtn_division.html
i was just courious.... mountaineers, rock climbers, or those that worked hard trudging the grateoutdoors, just for the pure love of it all, were called for use, here... skiers, more in particular... perhaps some of you old-timers know more on this???
here is a plaque that any traveling climber, etc, must have seen many times over:
In 1997, Highway 89 between Tahoe City and Truckee was renamed "The 10th Mountain Division Highway" in salute to these Winter Warriors. Two signs posted on each end of the highway commemorate this honor.
this is just an excerpt from that whole link:
The War Dept. asked Dole to utilize the National Ski Patrol System to recruit skiers and mountain climbers from all over the country. Anyone wanting to join needed three letters testifying to their skiing ability and outdoorsmanship. Recruiters encouraged all outdoor-oriented men to volunteer for mountain soldier training, which attracted park rangers, trappers, hunting guides, and ranchers. The Army wanted 2,500 men; Dole's system provided more than 3,500. Among the brave volunteers who joined were two former Truckee residents, the late Karl Kielhofer and Pete Vanni.
Have any of you folks heard, or known much about these two men... i was just wondering:
karl kielhofer or pete vanni?
do you or have you heard of any old time climbers, or such, friends or relatives that may joined up?
it seems a part of climbing history that is very UNKNOWN... i had never heard of this, and never saw the plaque...but then i never got up north much, my brothers did far more than i---as i waw in texas...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2008 - 04:29am PT
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hey there ...
excepts from:
http://www.micmacmedia.com/Sierra_Stories/10th_Mtn_Division/10th_mtn_division.html
HERE:
Some of the most famous skiers and mountain men from America and even some from Europe trained at Camp Hale. Roy Mikkelsen, a national ski jumping champion with the Auburn Ski Club, was a second lieutenant at Camp Hale in 1943. Europeans like Austrians Hannes Schneider's son, Herbie, (Schneider Sr. is considered by many the Father of Modern Skiing) and Bill Klein (a founder of Sugar Bowl Ski Resort) joined the mountain unit.
and:
an interesing note, that many an outdoor folks can sure understand, and feel:
Chelton Leonard likes to say that the mountains are a great equalizer, and that soldiers from various countries, enemies or allies, possess a love of mountains, skiing, and snow that transcends the bitterness of war, a common thread that brings them together as friends.
AWWWW... THE LOVE OF THE GREATOUTDOORS... AND THE POWERFUL HEART-TOUCH OF THE TREES AND ROCKS, ABOUT US....
it touches everyone that comes near....
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2008 - 05:54am PT
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hey there... say, thanks...
seems the "old timers" so to speak... were a lot more set to ways of disciplining themselves.... ways that folks don't set to do much these days, in these "too easy times"...
climbers and outdoor folks, are more apt to understand what goes into all such hard work and training...
it seemed to me that these guys from back then, really took on an extra load of hardships.. and of course, they were doing so for their country... and folks doing such, as not for "pleasure purposeses" and the "fun" of it... are often over-looked history wise...
thanks for the info... this is good to know that they are even remembered still...
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Neebee
A year ago they had an exhibit on the 10th Mtn. Div at
the Colorado History Museum, of course, because we used to
call them 'our own', as they'd trained for WWII at Camp Hale
near Vail, CO. Many were disappointed when they were transferred
to New York. I don't know if they had the names displayed of
all of the members who fought in WWII, but they even had some
German 'booty' they had captured in Italy.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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We have a monument to the 10th here in Stowe VT the guys who started the division were flatlanders who weekend and holliday skied in VT and they had their meetings at the VT ski areas when they cooked up the idea for a mountain unit.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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I have known a few 10th Mtn Division soldiers most are gone now - Ken Henderson was an officer while Bill Putman (still living) was one of the grunts under Ken. Both were and are active in the AAC. Both are former AAC presidents. Putman has a book on the Mtn division. Bob Bates was in the quartermaster core did a bunch of equipment testing for the Army. Which is how he and others (Washburn & Moore) did the 3rd ascent of Denali.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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neebee, Mammoth Ski Museum has some stuff about the 10th Mountain Division troupes. Chris Lizza of Lee Vining is a wealth of info on the subject.
Contact the Mono Market, he owns it.
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jstan
climber
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I run into 10th Mountain people now and again. In 1983 right after moving to California I ran into one of the guys who had quite a sense of humor. He said "there were a lot of foreigners in the Division and the government wouldn't let us get into the fighting. They did not trust us and just wanted to keep us where we couldn't do any harm." Actually this script fits in quite well with what we see on ST.
But, to get back to "what do we do about it now".............
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jud thurston got me started climbing. His dad stormed Riva Ridge with the 10th Mtn. My first time up pinnacle gully Mt Washington 1984 Jud caried his dads WWll ice ax.
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Geno
Trad climber
Reston, VA
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Glad you are picking up on the great history of this fabled Army Division and the men in it. These guys are in their 80s and 90s now and many have already left us. I highly recommend seeing the movie: Fire on the Mountain. It is the story about their exploits in WWII as well as what they did to establish the American Ski and other outdoor industries following the War. One founded the Sierra Club. Another Nike Shoes. But nearly all did somethng of value to make our Country what it is today.
My uncle, Frank Smith was 19 years old when he joined the 10th mountain during WW2. He was an Engineer and one of the few soldiers who was on both the assault on Riva Ridge and the next day on Mt Belvadere in the Appenine Mountains. He also was awarded a Bronze Star W/Valor for taking a bridge over the Po River with his Engineer Recon Squad. He was a good man with great physical prowess and courage. Right now he is in a nursing home with a broken hip and he's fading.
This is a brief WWII operational synopsis of the 10th Mountain in Italy:
"United States and Brazilian soldiers had been unsuccessful in breaking German lines established in the northern Italian Alps, and the defenses appeared impenetrable. From Naples, Italy, the 10th Mountain set sights on routing the Germans from Mount Belvedere. Mount Belvedere provided the key to advancement into the Po Valley and securing Mount Belvedere depended on routing German artillery entrenched on Riva Ridge, a three and a half mile ridge connecting a series of mountains. Warm weather rendered the specially designed winter camouflage clothing and equipment useless and the planned assault on Riva Ridge required climbing rather than skiing. On the night of February 18, 1945, companies of the 86th Regiment scaled Riva Ridge surprising the Germans.
The capture of Riva Ridge enabled the 85th and 87th Regiments to move on Mount Belvedere and the adjacent peaks Mounts Gorgolesco and della Torraccia. In capturing these peaks, the 10th Mountain suffered over 900 casualties. The next major assaults were in March on Mount della Spe and in April at Tole. Victories paved the way to advance on the PO Valley. By April 20th the 10th Mountain Division entered the valley, and after heavy fighting the German Army in Italy surrendered on May 2, 1945. In the campaign in Italy, the 10th took heavy losses with 4,888 casualties including 978 killed in action."
They took casualties but all told during their offensive operations the 10th captured or render combat ineffective 10 German Divisions.
I have some pictures I'll post up.
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Gary Carpenter
climber
SF Bay Area
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Here is an interesting link I found. Thought that Fred Becky was in this unit.
http://homepage.mac.com/galaher/10thMountain/seneca.html
"In January of 1944, Duke Watson replaced McCown as the commander of the rock climbing school. His staff consisted of many of the top climbers of that generation. David Brower was second in command. Raffi Bedayn was supply officer. Among the fifty instructors many names stand out-Dick Emerson, Fred Becky, Bill Dunaway, to name just a few."
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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Stu Dole still skis, I think he is in his 90's now.
My grandfather was in the 10th, but doesn't talk about the war.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Senator Bob Dole was shot pulling a radio operator out of harms way on Mt. Belvedere.
David Brower first Executive Director of the Sierra Club and Yosemite climber was in also.
These guys were the real deal.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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hey there all...say, this is wonderful... this is a lot more than i had hoped for... my mom always taught me respect for folks from generations before us---as she used to, or still tries to read biographies, etc....
so that was one of the reasons i sought to wonder about old time folks that were involved in the outdoors---which led me to this....
i am babysitting a house full of kids now, so i mustn't neglect them, but i am coming back this eveing to seek out more of this stuff....
say, thanks all... i had some nice more specific thanks to add, for yours shares, but i just cant do it yet---but i will....
thanks... this is the fruit of many hard-worked souls...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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There's a really interesting book on the 10th Mountain Division I read called, I believe, "The Last Ridge." Really interesting stuff. A few guys at Ivy League ski clubs basically contacted the military and offered their services. They somehow convinced the military to give them top notch gear and a training zone in Colorado.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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And you guys are insanely lucky. You have a chance to meet an original member of the group, as well as the first climbing team member of the east face of Whitney, Glen Dawson:
==
Friends of the Angeles Chapter History Committee:
You are invited to the premier showing of “Golden Youth: The Adventures of Glen Dawson Growing Up In The Sierra Club”, a digital slide presentation that I will be presenting at the next meeting of the Ski Mountaineers Section, March 18 (Tuesday) at 7:30 p.m. at the Griffith Park Ranger Station Auditorium, 4730 Crystal Springs Drive, Los Angeles.
Featured will be photos and descriptions of early Dawson outings to local mountains and further afield, along with accounts of Glen’s many rock climbing and ski mountaineering exploits. Please join us in exploring the many facets of the Golden Age of Sierra Club outings.
An added attraction will be the presence of Glen Dawson, himself, now in his 95th year, and in Glen’s parlance, “still able to walk around the block.”
Bob Cates
Chair, Angeles Chapter History Committee
bobcates@ix.netcom.com
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Guys from the 10th Mountain Division returned to the area near the old Camp Hale in Colorado where they trained and founded a small ski resort they called Vail.
Bruce
ps- not surprisingly, one of the toughest runs on the mountain is named Riva Ridge.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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I clip their old pitons all summer out at Camp Hale,Colorado.
I knew quite a few of the old guys when I was the MTn Mgr. at a local ski area 15 yrs back.
I think Bunea Vista Dave is still skiing. Not many are left these days. I remember 25 of them showing up back in 97 for the reunion & one even arrived via parachute. Great mtn. men for sure.
There is a cool route on Independence pass(monitor rock)that goes at an easy 4-5 pitch 5.8 (trooper traverse). It was put up by the 10th mountain guys & a few pitons are there just waiting to be clipped.rg
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
Meyers,CA
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Edgerton F Hyde, My grandfather and recipient of 2 purple hearts, was the owner of the lodge that accompanied Sugarbush's (VT) startup in the late 40's, went on to spend a good many years in sales,still skis, and was an officer in the tenth. My childhood is nothing but stories of the war and Riva Ridge in particular. As of 78 years old, he was the reigning national Masters slalom winner. Dude won Masters titles for 10 years! He taught me how to ski when I was 2 years old, coached my racing, took me to Europe for summertime glacier training, and pretty much made me the man that I am today. I have so much respect for the Tenth. If anyone goes to the national ski museum in Killington, look for Tony Hyde. The man is 86 years old these days and despite 3 cornea transplants still plays competitive tennis 4 days a week. Keep your mind young and your body will follow.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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My dad is 83'
He makes me smile almost everyday.
Because we talk almost every day.
It does not matter what we talk about, but anyway...
This morning I flipped him the link to this thread.
From a chat session this afternoon:
(forgive the typo's et al)
My Dad: Hi kid --- I just got through reading every word including the attachments
Me: yeah ... what did you think?
Me: < never knew that Vail Colo was started by old 10th MNT Div guys
My Dad: I know this group well--- almost joined them while stationed at Salt Lake City but was told " NO " by the CO who told me I was being shipped overseas in 2 days time
Me: that's what I thought you had told me. That you were already just about 'pau' with Basic and shipping out when you saw some skiers with the 10th and you were all stoked. But to late to get on with them?
My Dad: While enroute to my port of departure in Va. we had a 4hour lay-over at Camp Hale and I got special permission to go watch the 10 th Mtn. Div. guys in training
Me: Schweeeet... (but envious) I bet
My Dad: what a thrill to see those guys in action
My Dad: they were absolutely amazing
My Dad: I used to ski with Herb Schneider
Me: No Sh#t 'eh
My Dad: I taught ski school at No. Conway for a week and dated his sister
Me: while your typing I will spank out a question for you, ... did you ever ski with Carrol Reed ?
My Dad: we went ice skating
My Dad: Carrol Reed was a clothing store
My Dad: Reed was a New Yorker and not a skier
Me: I thought it was the name of a well known N.E skier as well ? lol
Me: so Reed was just a business man then ?
My Dad: ---not to my knowledge- you may be thinking about the NY banker who funded the entire no. Conway development
My Dad: he got Reed to open the ski shop
Me: Ice skating... in North Conway? So was that at the outdoor rink they setup in the common field in front of the train station area ?
My Dad: he also paid for the engineering work on the ski mobile---the first in the world
Me: oooh yeah ? Reed did, (pay or help pay for development of the skimobile) ?
http://teachski.com/articles/cranmoreskimobile/cranmoreskimopbile.htm
My Dad: you got it, the rink that is --- and it was cold as hell that nite
Me: lmao
Me: I can imagine, I've paid my dues in Mnt. Warshtub valley, I can relate, so go on old man...
My Dad: not a pleasant dating experience
Me: So the Cranmore 'skimobile' was truly a national first in ski resort development huh ?
My Dad: Me---those 10th mtn boys wereb sking down a mountainside steep as anything i've ever seen with 9 foot skis and 90 pound packs on their backs ----at full speed---wide open---WOW !!!!
Me: That's when you really bust sh#t up when/if you wipe out. Falling is one thing but when the inertia of an extra 90 lbs comes down on the limb.... yikes
My Dad: yeh---Cranmore was revolutional
My Dad: the 1st in the nation
Me: I recall seeing early promo adds for the 'skimobile' but I did not realize the impact it had on the countries fledgling Ski resort industry.
My Dad: before that there was nothing but rope tows and damned few of those
Me: lol so early daze 'Tuck's' ravine was not that big of a deal ? Because you guys were used to hiking to get a good virgen run in 'eh ?
My Dad: right
My Dad: we herring-boned up and skiied down
Me: sounds like such fun... lol herringbone with monster skis'
My Dad: I'm getting tired of typing ---I,rather herring-bone up a mountain and ski down than type
Me: lmao ... I hear yah
My Dad: yeh---when I started we had Kandihar bindings only---no modern bindings like today
Me: those are wire/ bear trap style ?
My Dad: steel toe plate with a leather strap going around the back of the boot
Me: holy sh#t
Me: did you guys talk to 'burning bushes' on the top of the Mount before descending as well ? (Jus' joking)
My Dad: great for cross country but no good for downhill
Me: I bet
Me: so you started off telemarking then? as your only real way to turn those old boards ?
My Dad: the turns had to be all telemark turns
My Dad: it was easier to jump off a cliff than ski down a slope
Me: lol
My Dad: true, NS --- that is why everyone was into ski jumping instead of slalom back then!
My Dad: I learned to jump before I learned to turn
Me: NS I never thought of that ... doh
My Dad: parrallel turns were unknown
Me: And when did people start parrallel turning? And was it simul developed by the North Americans and the Euro's when the appropriate bindings came out ?
My Dad: that is what made Hannes Schneider so famous
Me: Ahhhhhhhh
Me: Schneider ? Originally Austrian ?
My Dad: the first to teach da'am-ricans the art of swiss style, parrelell sking.
My Dad: OK I QUIT, enough typing.
My Dad: Bye
Me : L8's pops...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Priceless exchange there boys,
Cheers & thanks much for sharing!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2008 - 02:10am PT
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hey there ... say, i just was finding some info for one of the grandkids, here, about the trapp family singers... and i found this, about some of their family being in the 10th MOUNTAIN DIVSION, AS VOLUNTEERS
(after the family had moved to america, and become adults, of course)... (the movie was not true to live, as usual)...
here is what i found:
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Changes In The Lives of The Trapp Family Singers are memories of Maria von Trapp, age 91, who is the third child of Agathe Whitehead von Trapp and Captain von Trapp:
The first change in our choir (The Trapp Family Singers) came about when our two brothers, Werner and Rupert, volunteered for the United States 10th Mountain Division. They trained at Camp Hale and were sent to Italy to fight against the Nazi's. With their departure we lost our tenor and bass.
In order to keep singing, Mother shifted to tenor, Hedwig remained at alto and Father Wasner sang bass alone, but we managed.
Thank God our brothers returned home safely after the war. Rupert did not join us again but pursued his calling to be a doctor. Werner returned to his place in the choir and played the Viola Da Gamba.
__
wow--the things we find out about "famous folks"....
(there is the trapp family lodge, also, in vermont, by the way)
well, i know this was an old topic... but perhaps it will be still be of interest to someone...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2008 - 03:01am PT
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hey there.. say, all... i just had to go back and read all the things you guys shared here as to the older men, still left, from this division... and as to the memories, shared, also...
say, thanks again, for sharing....
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
Meyers,CA
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Mar 22, 2008 - 03:32am PT
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READ THIS!!
I posted a while back but I gotta say, Tony Hyde is my true hero! That dude gave up his schooling at Yale to enlist, then got hit by shrapnel on two seperate occasions.
I have a picture somewhere from one of the first issues of skiing magazine(i think it's skiing) with my grandpa arcing a turn and throwing a 40's style roost behind his skis. This was in Sugarbush's first year, when the owner of the area and my grandpa(the owner of the hotel at the base) still worked together.In the background is the top of the chair, Mt. Ellen, after which my mom was named.
The man was skiing waist deep east coast fresh like it was nobodys business. I'll have to track down the picture if nobody else has it, which I really doubt.
The Tenth; Fathers of our livelyhood! We are all in debt to the vision of these men.
P.S. You wouldn't believe the skis in my grandparents barn, ranging from the early 40's wooden skis, to the wooden skis with screw on edges, to early fixed heel bindings, to the modern short shaped slalom ski. My grandpa keeps up with the times, y'all! He will kick any of your asses on a tennis court or a slalom course! He broke his collarbone while shinning gates when he was 80 years old!(if you know what that means, you will respect the guy!)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2008 - 04:44am PT
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hey there ricardo... say, i am very impressssssssssssedddd..... say, i was gonna' sign off here for the night.... but seems i am stuck at this "yodel" site... :)
say, give your this hero a hug and a salute... and wow, oh, my... i am so very thankful for yet another share....
you dont find men of high inner pressng-on material any more these days.... that generation will slip by, without this world ever understanding the "backbone" of such hard working folks...
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
Meyers,CA
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Mar 22, 2008 - 04:57am PT
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Neebee,
Right on! I only post these details because I am so PROUD of my grandpa, I agree that we need to keep the spirit of the 10'th in WW2 alive, because aside from museums and highway signs, the spirit of these amazing and influential men might be lost.
These guys began the ski industry as we know it.
Anyone else?
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Geno
Trad climber
Reston, VA
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Mar 22, 2008 - 10:05am PT
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To give you an idea of what these guys did, here are a couple scans:
A sketch of their most famous offensive operation.
This is a description from Tales of the 10th by Jeffrey Leich, 2003, New England Ski Museum:
"The escarpment of Riva Ridge facing the 10th was steep enough that the German mountain troops holding it believed it was unclimable. Working in silence at night, units of the 86th [Regiment] located four routes up the cliff face and fixed climbing ropes on the most difficult pitches. On the night of February 18-19, 1945 with orders to use only grenades and bayonets on the attack, about 900 men of the 86th [1-86th] ascended the four routes onto the summits of Riva ridge and successfully drove off the surprised German defenders. Deprived of this high ground for their observation posts, German artillery could not see the subsequent advance onto Monte Bellvidere. The remaining units of the 10th advanced onto Monte Belvidere under the cover of darkness and had the terrain under control by February 24. Casualties were heavy, but the objectives were taken days earlier than had been planned."
Here is a shot taken in 1995 of the one of the subordinate ridges of Riva called Serrasiccia. What you miss is that in Feb 1945 this was covered in deep snow and ice.
This is a photo taken again in 1995 during the filming of Fire on the Mountain. This film recorded the Renactment of the 50th Anniversary of 10th Mountain Division's Assault on Riva Ridge. The photo is a picture of a modern day 10th Mountain (Light Infantry) soldier and Flint Whitlock, the son of an original 10th Mountain member. Flint is dressed in his father's uniform. About 10 members from the original 10th conceived the 50th Anniversay Renactment and several climbed Riva Ridge. One of them,Nelson Bennet, was 80 years old at the time. This picture is on one of the cliff bands on Riva (Mount Serrasicia). In the background is the South slope of Monte Belvedere.
I was fortunate to be part of the 50th Anniversary Renactment in Feb 1995 and got to know several of the World War II Veterans. In this picture, I am standing next to "PFC" Bob Parker. We just finished a recon of a line up the ridge and set up ropes for filming. Bob was a key leader at Vail: Publicity Director and Senior Director of Operations from 1962-1984.
There was a great group of New England 10th Veterans that were also with us in Italy for the Renactment. This photo was taken in 1997 in New Hampshire. From Left to right are Tiny McQuade, Dick Wilson, myself, Neil Dearborne and Newc Eldridge. All these former 10th Vets were involved in skiiing their entire lives. And,the bonds of friendship between them were deep. Neil Dearborne died soon after this picture. He was in Kindergarten with Newc Eldridge. Neil was a medic in the 10th and when Newc Eldridge was badly wounded on Belvedere, Neil carred Newc for miles underfire to an aid station saving his friend's life. Dick Wilson was also badly wounded the same day on Mount Belvedere. He couldn't use one of his arms very well. Dick was the first editor of Skiing Magazine and when he was Communications director for The Disabled American Veterans Association he was also a founder of the Disabled Skiing movement. Dick Wilson passed away last year. These guys were extraordinary and I am proud to have known them.
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Chip
Trad climber
Wilmington, DE
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Mar 22, 2008 - 11:21am PT
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Thanks for posting Geno, the pictures and personal stories are great. Makes me pretty humbled.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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hey there geno... say, thanks for the sharing of all this... and, say, as to the quote here:
"Neil was a medic in the 10th and when Newc Eldridge was badly wounded on Belivedere, Neil carred Newc for miles underfire to an aid station saving his friend's life. Dick Wilson was also badly wounded the same day on Mount Belivedere."
a true example of tenacity, the 'hidden hero in a man's heart, under pressure'...
and to this quote:
"He couldn't use one his arms very well. Dick was the first editor of Skiing Magazine and when he was Communications director for The Disabled American Veterans Association he was also a founder of the Disabled Skiing movement. Dick Wilson passed away last year. These guys were extraordinary and I am proud to have known them."
I HAVE ALWAYS wondered, since i first learned about disabled skiiing, who gave it the big kick-off send-off to open so many doors for others to enjoy the great outdoors this way...
thanks for the share... these men really left more behind than folks take to think on....
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Mar 23, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
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bumpity bump
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2008 - 02:54am PT
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hey there... yeah... a bump would be nice.. perhaps this time of evening, someone on the west coast may still be up...
i never realized all the folks that were still around that knew these folks...
that last picture, some of these guys, and the start of the disabled skiier program was really something choice to learn...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Mar 24, 2008 - 12:47pm PT
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From the link that Gary Carpenter posted.
Seneca, Champe, and other local rocks were scouted and practice routes established. At this time, Seneca was overrun by copperhead snakes, but the clean up was so effective, none were seen the next summer.
So WVA/Seneca climbers, did the coppeheads ever return? My mom is from the northern panhandle, Wheeling area (Twilight is what the family farm is called), and on my first visit there when I was ten, I saw my first copperhead, as well as a water moccasin (so my cousins told me) in the creek on the farm.
EDIT
Those 10th guys were/are awesome.
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CathC
Social climber
Wyoming
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Mar 24, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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Hi Neebee, my father was in the 10th Mtn Division,87th Mountain Infantry. He was a soldier in Italy, and was wounded at the base of Mt.Belvedere in Feb. 1945, and received a Purple Heart award. I was able to go back to the very spot where he was wounded in Italy in 2000. The 10th Mtn Division had a reunion in Italy and toured most of the major battlefield in 2000. It was an amazing trip... the local people in the villages that were liberated still love the 10th Mtn soldiers and had huge yummy banquets and music in their honor. Many tears were shed also for those that were killed and the trauma of WW 2 in Italy. My father's experience made a huge impact on his life.(and mine) He fell in love with Italy for one thing !!!, and has always loved the mountains. He wrote his memories of the war in a small book. It is a fascinating history. The last reunion of the WW 2 Vets was in Denver last summer.
It's good that you are so interested as these vets are all very elderly now. My father is still healthy, witty and doing well at 83.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
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Yes sir ....
All glories to the 10th MOUNTAIN DIVISION - SKI TROOPERS.
The were tough and hard core.
I feel like nothing compared to them, but then I'm worhtless anyways.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2008 - 01:09am PT
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hey there cath c--- thank you for sharing this.... when ones heart and soul was on the line, so to speak, at such crucial times for such a near-hard to fathom victory job, and so far from home---italy and all he went through is a treasure for him, now...
so many other everday footsoldiers remember times that will never be resolved for them--and some very sadly...
what a gift to go back and retrace something that he really had no assurance to get through---and see that it had passed on into making folks still have joy, to this day.... i loved hearing about the reunion and all the things you shared about him... and 83, is a right special time for dwelling on thankfulness....
these older folks that saw and understood hard things have much to share that we can learn from... from hard unpleasant lessons, to sweet and special ones....
ps--say, there werner...awwwwwwwwww, werner... your heart is most specially knit with them folks in many other ways..... as a rescuer, is a rescuer, is a rescuer---you cant take THAT out of a man, whether he was a soldier or not.... and a volunteer---well, that is a gift in the heart of a man.... you 'ol volunteer you....diamonds shine in many ways...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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hey there steveW... say, thanks.. i just saw your post.. i will go and see it... thanks a lot...god bless...
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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BUMP
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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I just watched Fire on the Mountain, available streaming from Netflix.
In addition to how truly bad-ass these dudes were, the documentary is really well made. It covers a range of topics and shows the somewhat surprising links between the roots of this group and their subsequent contributions to our society (including the sport company Nike and jogging as a sport in America.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116310/
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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David Brower and Raffi Bedayn both earned Bronze Stars in Italy.
Don't forget Paul Petzold.
Brower (among his many accomplishments in and out of climbing) wrote The Manual Of Ski Mountaineering in 1942.
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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I'm glad that this thread is alive. My earlier posts were under 'Ricardo Cabeza', and I am so proud of my Grandpa. I was wrong in my earlier statement of his age. He's 91 and still workin' the Bowflex every day.
Much Respect...
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Nohea
Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
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Just Pau watching off Netflix. Those are incredible adventures those guys had. Great story out of such a troubled part of the worlds history.
Aloha,
Will
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I went through Army Basic Training at Fort Carson, Colorado in the late Fall of 1961. That was the headquarters of the 10th Mountain, and high altitude/ski training was conducted at Camp Hale in the Sawatch Range near Leadville. There was virtually nothing available at Carson while I was there, that would indicate it was the Army's center for Mountain Warfare training. It later developed into the center for Mountain and Cold Weather Command, but that was disbanded in...1956 or 1957, and again all evidence was gone by the time I was there. Two well-known Colorado rock climbers were in M&CWTC: Ray Northcutt, and Harvey Carter. I knew and bouldered with Ray in the 1960's.
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Licky
Mountain climber
California
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Mini Dole was in the 10th Mountain Division. After WWII he returned to the US to help found the National Ski Patrol
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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It would be interesting to find more details from the old guard.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Would appear they had FreeHeel skis.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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All skis were free heel in those days. My grandpa trained at Camp Hale and has lots of old video from there.
The cold weather research center has since relocated to Lebanon NH.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Who's John Duffield?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Ignore that dumbass post of mine then. I was focused on the picture and didn't look at the poster.
Hello John Duffield!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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No, you're outed. And you have content to add. No more lurking.
I love seeing the history in the Lake Placid area.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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I knew several members of the 10th back in the 50s. Dick Pownall was a guide working for Exum in the Tetons and a fine all-around climber. I think Dick Emerson was also an ex-10th, but I'm not sure.
More recently I talked with Crosby Perry Smith - youngest son of the incredible Oliver Perry Smith - and he told me of returning from the campaign in the Dolomites and his father telling him to be careful with all the traffic in town! Crosby was an instructor at Ft Carson in the 1960s and one time took a group of soldiers up to Boulder to let them climb in the Flatirons. After they came down one of them said "we were passed by an old man climbing by himself", and Crosby knew who the old man must have been. He called his dad who at that time was living in Denver and asked him to be more careful, and Oliver said "It wasn't that hard - there was only one place I might have used a rope."
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I think Bill Putnam, Ad Carter and Fritz Weissner haven't been mentioned. Also there were several climbers who worked in the Quartermaster Corps developing mountaineering equipment for the 10th: Bill House, Bestor Robinson, Brad Washington. Raffi Bedayn has already been mentioned.
David Brower was an accomplished ski mountaineer long before WWII and the 10th Mtn Div. He had made several winter ski ascents of Sierra Peaks.
Glen Dawson and Fred Beckey were ski/climbing instructors.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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hey there say, brandon-
as to this quote of yours:
I'm glad that this thread is alive. My earlier posts were under 'Ricardo Cabeza', and I am so proud of my Grandpa. I was wrong in my earlier statement of his age. He's 91 and still workin' the Bowflex every day.
Much Respect...
wow, thanks for the share...
this is so full of special things, and deep memories for all, thanks for all the share, you all...
:)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2011 - 11:10pm PT
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hey there say, john duffield... wow, neat share, with the picture, ...
thanks so much...
:)
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
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Buena vista Dave passed away this year. Another hero moves on...
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Mark Rodell
Trad climber
Bangkok
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In the late 80s I fell for a girl and her dad had been in the 10th. Got on Shasta with him. He is still alive and doing well...Frank Roda, a hero and a great guy.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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My wife's uncle George was a mule skinner for the 10th in Italy during WWII.
I had the pleasure of taking him to Stoney Point once and he chatted while I bouldered.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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First things first. Is Geno still around? Hasn't posted in a long while on this thread.
"Yes sir ....
All glories to the 10th MOUNTAIN DIVISION - SKI TROOPERS.
The were tough and hard core.
I feel like nothing compared to them, but then I'm worhtless anyways."
We could all say that; Werner happened to have beat me to it.
Strange how things work. I love doing this mindless sort of task, the scanning of magazines and photos. It is mindless but one still manages thoughts, some of which are related to the task at hand.
As I scanned the men of the 10th and their animals, I thought just how tough mules are compared to horses and how tough these ski troopers would be compared to such as, let's see, and this is the absolute truth, That Dude came to mind, in terms such as these: they were the equal of him in everything except his talent as a rock climber. given the skis they used, etc., some of them would have skiied circles around that boy on modern equipment. and so forth. It is with pride in knowing that the 10th lives on here on STuportaco that I lay these on you.
Who is the cover boy?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Horizontal traverse on an ice wall is made by first man chopping a ledge halfway up the wall, and then belayng the other two over to that point. From the ledge in this picture, the first man is now moving ahead, has driven a piton and, supported by that, is cautiously working his way across the ice face. He is belayed through a snapline and rope hung from the piton.--No Sh#t, a snapline! I've never seen one. Still haven't.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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If y'all haven't seen the documentary "Fire On The Mountain"* then stand
down and STFU! OK, just kidding, but there'll be no pudding until you do.
(Hint - better have a fresh hanky handy)
Fire On The Mountain
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jayzus! Don't sneak up on me like that...
neebee! I need bee a handkerchief. (Thought that was Chief, for a second...
Yeah, I was searching "Division, in order to place these LIFE pics, and I saw neebee's thread with neebee's posts and thought, gee.
So it turns out neither of the first two links here are good. At least one other isn't. APPARENTLY this one's good. I'm going.I'm a Dave Brower fan. Best single summer in the Sierra Nevada ever: 1934 with Hervey Voge. Awesome reading in the annals.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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When I guided out of Vail. One of our main places was along the highway to Leadville, were there was once a 10th mtn headquarters. The crag we used was the one they used. There were all sorts of slabs and foundations were their buildings stood during ww2
Wish I could remember the name of the ace, dang. There are roadside plaques there telling all about it.....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jay, there's a nice memorial there now at Ski Cooper which is the mountain
they trained on.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Neebee! Thanks for starting this great thread!
I grew up with 10th Mountain Division Vets as family friends in Ketchum Idaho in the 1950's-60's.
Tough as nails, but pleasant, folks who included Barney Bell, Eddie Bennet, & Nelson Bennet.
There were a lot more on the staff of the Sun Valley Ski School.
Turns out some of the 10th Mountain Vets heavily influenced the subsequent growth of skiing and climbing in our country.
Here's a link to one version of the story.
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-10th-mountain-division-boom-post-war-384375.html
Here's a list of some of those folks and their outdoor doings.
This is only a partial list of the men of the 10th Mountain Division who influenced skiing in post-war America:
Max Dercum, Larry Jump, Thor Groswold, and Dick Durrance formed Arapahoe Basin Inc. CO., in 1946.
Gordy Wren- managed Loveland Basin and then Steamboat Springs.
Barney McLean- ran Hot Sulphur Springs, Co.
Crosby Perry-Smith and Pop Sorenson went to Winter Park, CO.
Steve Knowlton and Leon Wilmott started Ski Broadmoor, CO.
Gerry Cunningham- opened Gerry's Mountain Sports, in Denver.
Merrill Hastings- published Skiing Magazine in Denver.
Monty Atwater- became America's premier avalanche expert.
Fritz Benedict- influential mountain architect who founded the 10th Mountain Division Memorial Hut System in Colorado.
Bil Dunaway- made the first ski descent of Mount Blanc in France on skis, then settled in Aspen Colorado, becoming editor of Skiing Magazine.
Toni Matt- world famous ski racer and instructor. First to go straight down the Headwall at Tuckerman's Ravine in the third Inferno race held in 1939. (He cut the old time in half).
David Brower- First Executive Director of the Sierra Club. Re-focused the club on the issue of preservation and made it into the world's most powerful environmental organization. Nominated three times for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Ed Link and Roe Duke Watson are credited with creating Crystal Mountain, WA.
Paul Petzolt- Brought the Outward Bound concept to the U.S. and subsequently founded the National Outdoor Leadership School.
Dick Stillman- 30-year career in the Forest Service, established and maintained the High Alpine Avalanche Research Station at Berthoud Pass, Colorado from 1950-63.
Grant Ford- Director of the National Ski Association (now USSA) and served three terms. In 1957, he was appointed Secretary of the National Ski Association's Olympic Ski Games Committee.
Benjamin Duke Jr.- Ben was elected to the Board of Directors of Vail Associates in 1966 and served for nearly 20 years.
Paul Duke- managed Breckinridge, CO. for many years.
Clif Taylor- Taught skiing at Aspen, Aspen Highlands, Mad River Glen, Loveland, and Winter Park . Created the Graduated Length Method of ski instruction.
John P. Litchfield - Started the Aspen Ski School where he became Co-Director. John was also an original investor in the Aspen Ski Company as well as the original owner and operator of the famous Red Onion Restaurant in Aspen.
Nelson Bennett- managed White Pass, WA.
Wilfred "Slim" Davis-devoted 40 years to the US Forest Service. He was an early innovator of ski area design, slope layout, avalanche control and ski area safety.
Curt Chase- an innovator: in 1946, he organized, trained and directed the Aspen Ski Patrol.
Steve Knowlton - a member of the US Olympic Ski Team (1948) and the FIS Ski Team (1950). From 1963-73, Steve formed Colorado Ski Country USA and became its first Director.
Gordon Wren- directed the Loveland Basin ski school and was manager of Steamboat, CO.
Ralph "Doc" Des Roches- was executive director of Ski Industries of America.
Alf Engen- directed the ski school at Alta, UT.
Luggi Foeger- directed the ski school at Badger Pass, CA.
Bill Healy- created Mt. Batchelor OR.
Nick Hock- associate publisher of Ski Magazine.
Dev Jennings- executive director of Ski New England.
Dave Judson- founded Otis Ridge, MA.
Dick May- managed Wildcat, NH.
Jack Murphy- founded Sugarbush, VT.
Bob Nordhaus- created Sandia Peak, NM.
Bud Phillips- directed the ski school at Mad River Glen, VT.
Percy Rideout- co-director of the Aspen Ski School.
Kerr Sparks- directed the ski school at Stowe, VT.
Thad Thorne- managed Attitash, NH.
Laverne Trepp- founded Pine Mountain, MI.
Jack Tweedy- V.P. and attorney for the Vail Corporation.[51]
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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I believe Jack Morehead was also in the 10th. He was a ranger in Yosemite, Everglades, Tetons and others, was Superintendent of Yosemite and was very high in NPS when he retired. Great guy. He and I used to climb in summer in the Valley, purposely take only a pint of water apiece so that we could really appreciate two consecutive beers in the old Degnan's Beer Garden at the Old village. Did the Arrow Tip together quite a way back.
Pat and Jack Pinnacles are named after them. Pat died some years ago. Jack lives in Morro Bay and is still remarkably active.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2012 - 03:40am PT
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hey there say, mouse... fritz... and fossil climber!
wow, thanks for sharing all this info... i loved learning about all this...
(mouse, will have to try to see the pics later...)
fritz, wow!!! lots of info, :)
and fossil climber, nice to hear the share about the man named jack and still being around and active...
happy to see this thread again, :)
thanks guys, :)
edit:
wow, just got booted off line, in the middle of all this,
wanted to say:
thank you to jaybro and reilly, too...
awww, and good eve to you mouse,just saw your post, that comes
after this, :)
i'm heading out now, to go sleep, was busy with
phone calls, earlier from friend...
no taco time tonight, just a 'drop in' fast...
:)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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You are surely welcome, miss.
All the others, too.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"If you choose to go, no one may follow, that path is for your steps alone...
If I knew the way, I would take you there."
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2012 - 04:02am PT
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hey there say, before i sign off for the night...
i just saw more BACK on the thread...
thanks to cintune.. and sooo many more, as well for some
more neat new info here...
thanks so much!!!
these guy were really something to learn about...
well, night all...
edit:
will also check out the movie link, documentary...
anyone know more about it...
is it good and solid, and not just 'movie-ish for sake of movie hype'
thanks, will back later, for more info on that...
oh my, waiting though dial up for one more edit:
just read from a post back a it, that the movie is credible,
and had all the real men in it, as documentaries should, :)
and--mouse, the mag-PICTURES did load by now... really great photo stuff
there, thanks for sharing their pics...
okay--GOT to get to sleep now... :))
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2012 - 04:17am PT
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hey there say, mouse...
wow, MORE links, and, as to the movie...
okayyyyyyyyyy, well, self-decipline wins-out over
curiousity, tonight...
will check this all tomorrow, :))
god bless and good eve/night to all...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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"Send up all the litter teams you can get!"
"Send up all the litter teams you can get!"
"Send up all the litter teams you can get!"
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
When I guided out of Vail. One of our main places was along the highway to Leadville, were there was once a 10th mtn headquarters. The crag we used was the one they used. There were all sorts of slabs and foundations were their buildings stood during ww2
Wish I could remember the name of the ace, dang. There are roadside plaques there telling all about it.....
Camp Hale, my Grandpa trained there.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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As I was reading this, and looking at the list of guys who did great things after Europe, I can't help but think of the thousands that are not listed....they went on to live more humble lives, or they didn't come back.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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RIP, Grandpa.
I placed his urn in the ground this spring. He is deeply missed.
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stonefly
Social climber
Alameda, California
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Nov 17, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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10th Mountain Vet at Glen's 100th Party
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sbailey2
climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
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Hello, all; My Grandfather was in the 10th Mountain Division, and served with David Brower at Seneca Rocks, and again in Italy. He never talked about the war, but through research I've been able to trace his activities pretty accurately. He was commander of L Company, 86th Regiment until April 29, 1945 when an 88mm round exploded in a tunnel full of troops (and one of them was his Battalion CO). At that point he became commander of 3rd Bn-86th. It was in this capacity that he worked alongside of Dave Brower.
My Grandfather (Everett Bailey) is 95 and still living, though he really doesn't remember anything anymore.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2013 - 05:59am PT
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hey there say, sbailey2... i was just looking for this thread, and i saw
it had a NEW post...
oh my, VERY SORRY i missed this post...
thank you for sharing... i have great respect for what all these 'old timers' went through...
thank you for sharing...
wow, a whole year ago, and i missed it...
is your grandfather still alive now, or not...
god bless to you, and once again: thanks for sharing...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2016 - 03:32am PT
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hey there say, TGT2 .. thank you so very much, i will go and
check it out, tomorrow...
going to sleep now... had a long productive night,
doing many things...
thanks so much!!!!
edit:
ooops, just had to take a peak...
wow, will go read tomorrow, though... :)
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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What a great thread, thanks for posting up everyone.
Several years ago I was a winter guest at a cabin between Lower and Upper Echo Lakes off of Echo Summit here in the Tahoe Sierra. The owners have a wonderful photo album there since the cabin has been in the family for a very long time. Anyway thumbing through it I found photos of a ski tour lead by David Brower with friends from Echo Summit to Donner Summit, it must have been in the late 30's right before the war. Talk about hard core, just imagine how wild the Tahoe backcountry must have been back then. Highway 50 was a dirt road!!!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2019 - 12:26pm PT
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hey there, say, ... wow, charlie D...
i have not seen this thread in almost THREE YEARS, now...
i really enjoyed this one!
thanks for the tahoe share...
say, and, now, all these year later, chris is 'making bike' trails,
in tahoe...
wow... lot's of change, :)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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May 30, 2019 - 12:34pm PT
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The tenth is still alive. I just re-buried my uncle, who was a marine. All the thoughts of Tony came flooding back. He is missed in this family SO much. Tony dropped out of Yale and did two tours in Europe. I have his purple heart and silver stars.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2019 - 01:38pm PT
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hey there, say, Brandon_... good to hear from you...
though, sad, as to your recent 'RE do'...
i DID see you shared last time, earlier in the thread, and that
was very special...
thank you for sharing about him, and his life...
and, the medals...
and, thanks for stopping by, as well...
was wondering how you were, the other night, while on facebook...
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