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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 10, 2008 - 03:25pm PT
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The seminal 1972 Chouinard Equipment catalog was followed by a 1975 catalog with the company name changed to The Great Pacific Iron Works. I have a catalog which I received for free upon request back then... and it sits on my book shelf with an occasional gander...
..while not quite the same impact factor of the first catalog, it has a lot of good stuff in it. So I thought I would scan it and make it available.
Served at this URL:
http://www.edhartouni.net/great-pacific-ironworks-1975.html
let me know what you think.
EDIT: Updated December 5th, 2016
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 10, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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That's great, Ed. The '75 edition is classic too, as the times they were a-changin'.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 10, 2008 - 05:49pm PT
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Thanks Ed.
I was 13 when that came out and poured over every word. Rereading some of those sections now... there is some good writing, and very effective education torward a more sustainable style. When I was working my way through the Valley 5.8s that year, there were still some people out there who would carry a hammer, but that went away quickly. Nice to remember our own JStan quoted therein as a leading clean climbing pioneer. I have that classic Doug Robinson technique and technology quote posted near my desk. Makes me want to go out and lead some classics without cams!
Peter
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 10, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
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Thanks Ed Hartouni!
That's a good one.
An image of Yvon jamming up the second pitch of, what, Outer Limits?, ...in mountain boots no less.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 10, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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I'm sentimental about that one because it's the only Chouinard catalog ever to quote me.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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I've still got to scan the rest of it...
...Debbie's in preparing for her class and has that room with the scanner in it tied up!
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Feb 10, 2008 - 10:30pm PT
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myth v/s reality
you'd never guess what a moody, egocentric, mean, hypocrite Yvon Chouinard became by looking at those pics, IMO. Many were the days I swapped stories with those who'd been around him at Rincon Machine for years and it was clear, from those stories as well as being in meetings w/ him - I will never forget or forgive some of the unbelievably cold, deliberately hurtful and unprofessional things YC said directly to me (and others) while in his employ.
myth v/s reality
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2008 - 12:36am PT
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I've finished up the scanning and posting, if you have been looking at it you may have to refresh the link to reload the new .html file...
Raydog, I've never met Chouinard so I certainly can't opine as to his personal bearing. It is a pretty common thing to ascribe to those who have creative genius the attribute of warmth and grace and good will. Some of the smartest people I have known have been pretty much distributed over the range of other human attributes from out-and-out as#@&%es to very warm, kind and generous people. Sometimes this depends on who is interacting with them...
Others will have to respond to your assessment of the man, I can't. Chouinard, however had a pretty distinct vision and figured out a way to make it real. He didn't do that alone, and he may not have been very generous with recognition, but what he did was remarkable.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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I always had a lot of respect for Chouinard, but I have to admit my view of him changed when he fired all the sales reps. Less service for the retailers, more money for him. As a retailer I didn't like it.
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Ragz
climber
Tartarus, black hole of the internet
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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That's cool,
Talus running. Now there's a great sport that's been overlooked by the IOC.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:51am PT
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i think we should all use the mail order form to order stuff from black diamond. give the folks in the shipping department something to think about.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2008 - 12:55am PT
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who are the people on Page 2?
I know the Chouinards and the Frosts...
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Feb 11, 2008 - 09:07am PT
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RE:
" Chouinard, however had a pretty distinct vision and figured out a way to make it real."
yes - he created his own little world, where he could always get the little-boy attention he needed by breaking a production schedule - over and over again...making the lives of many of the people who (have tried to) worked with him pretty difficult.
you should have been at the company (Lost Arrow) meeting where YC at the podium, vehemently putting down the world of sport climbing and it's participants in total and all his drones, the whole audience, applauds. except for me.
guess I never drank the cool-aid, man.
(seems like Patagonia kinda prays on the part of human psychology that craves belonging and some sort, or a near-fanatical "mission" to cleanse their consumerist guilt.)
but wait - no big deal really, not compared to what I saw
happen to some of the people around me, like Anne, Chouinard Equipment purchaser - who was just a nice person and did her job and didn't really understand the hornets nest she worked in.
kinda like maybe these "environmentally aware" companies seem to have a hard time integrating with the most valuable environment of all, the immediate one that provides them with their human infrastructure?
or maybe they're a little bit caught up in their own myth, and actually believe it?
I write the above for anne and steve - they deserve it.
now, Ed this is cool thread and I apologize, I'm going to back off but just one more point:
I wonder, really wonder if YC had or has the guts to say to me, and others, the things he said OUTSIDE the protective environment of his Temple, his World. Say, at the crags or on the street??
I and others kinda doubt it - does this mean I and others think YC is a chickensh*t?
you betcha.
amazing though - talk to Tom Frost five minutes and you see a person who is interested in sharing relevant cohesive information and will give you the time and credibility to share your information, as well.
but, then again Tom Frost didn't need a group of "insiders" following him around, all wearing Patagonia polo shirts with their collars turned up (that's how you know they were Yvon's guys, Yvon's eyes) - either.
it takes a high minded person to avoid the stereotypical pitfalls of power and leadership.
oops, gee, guess that was two, no three! points.
RE:
"so I certainly can't opine as to his personal bearing."
none of this has anything to do with a personal thing, it was his professional attitude and the company culture he directly created: I was there 2 years and there were four production managers because that was the position they needed to scapegoat, to turn into their no-win dumping ground so that YC could continue his obsessive scheduling mischief, all unspoken yet obvious to all and, kinda ugly) - that's my point.
ok, that's 4. I'm done. Promise.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2008 - 11:33am PT
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Raydog -"now, Ed this is cool thread and I apologize, I'm going to back off but..
Threads don't always go where you expect them to go...
The value of the 1972 Chouinard Equipment Catalog, and the 1975 Great Pacific Iron Works Catalog were that they explained a way of climbing with new tools outside of the traditional tool box in a way and drove a very rapid change in climbing habits, especially rapid considering that these "tools" had to work to insure the safety of the people using them. The catalogs featured educational instruction as well as pushing a climbing ethic which was much bigger than just climbing. Whatever the motive of the man, those values were part of zeitgeist and were shared by the vast majority of American climbers.
A lot of what we know from these catalogs were the careful writing by Doug Robinson... who probably doesn't get as much credit as he deserves for our modern era of clean climbing. And of ice climbing too, for that matter. Jeff Lowe also deserves credit there. Many people contributed to the catalogs, and it offered a way to get another point-of-view in front of the climbing community.
This may have been a brilliant marketing ploy by a megalomaniacal narcissist bent on become wealthy on the backs of his workers paid for out of the pockets of dirtbag climbers, or perhaps exploiting those "fashion hungry skiers."
Perhaps I should do more research into the companies that produce my gear. I still use a Patagonia fleece from probably 20 years ago, only slightly worn in the lower sleeves. I have capoline underwear spanning decades, Hansen-Healy too. A lot of my Chouinard Equipment gear is still serviceable. There may be a cult built up around Yvon Chouinard, I'm not sure I'm one of those who worship him...
...it is telling, though, that if I were to eschew buying from Chouinard's companies because of his behavior, I would still look around for products of the type he makes and sells.
The catalog's are important parts of the history of American climbing, independent of the methods and motives of the person who created them. The value of the catalogs was established by the actions of those who read them, thought about their message, and then went out and created a reality from those thoughts. The catalogs remain important ephemera, a necessary touchstone to understanding the history of American climbing. A history, by-the-way, in which Chouinard plays an important role as a climber.
Chouinard, however influential, didn't control the course of that history.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:33pm PT
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Ed - you're a gracious man to lemme spray like that so here's the other half:
for my self in the '70's(and untold hundreds of other struggling young men living in the anonymity of the So. Cal suburbs)
things like that Chouinard catalogue were among the healthiest and most important influences at the time, by a mile.
cataloges like that and others, plus Mountain magazine - fired the collective imagination and seemed rooted in important personal and ethical values - a long way from the gloss, even then.
I am so thankful for those images and cannot overstate my belief that discovering them, and the outdoors, saved my life.
today we look at consumer trends differently - we look at human psychology and the psychology of compulsive risk-taking, differently.
we are older, wiser.
and our lives are much enriched because of the culture and legacy of pioneers like YC, who did what they did and did it pretty darn well.
from their efforts we have all benefited a great deal.
Thanks Ed.
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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Ed
You and Steve Grossman have been great to share such treasures with us. I still have the original '72 catalog, lost the '75 issue somewhere along the way. (Probably recycled). But thanks for keeping the dreams alive.
Steve
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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It's not my thread.... we all contribute, I just put up the initial post.
And this is genuinely an interesting discussion and a very interesting direction..
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 11, 2008 - 12:51pm PT
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"Madman offers himself to the brink of disaster"
-When I was in school in Laramie I had a roomate that looked like that guy. It was an inside joke. sometimes some of us would exchange glances when he was around and it was all we could do to keep from breaking up.
-We never told him.
Talus Running
-This was a big deal when I was a kid @ Devils lake. Boulderhopping, it was called, back then. the idea was to go fast and avoid the use of hands. Some of those old CMC guys were really good at it.
I still have that catalog in my local horde.
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F10 Climber F11 Drinker
Trad climber
e350
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:18pm PT
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Thanks for posting Ed
I used to pour over that copy photo by photo and word by word in my younger days. It made quite an impression on me. I lost the catalog a few years back, but it was like an old dream viewing the pages again.
I really enjoy some of the older stuff here at the tacostand,
jb
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:48pm PT
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This thread certainly has opened some interesting perspectives.
Not really an argument between Ray & Ed, more a productive dialectic and it really expands the notion of certain cultural phenomena; namely the confluence/divergence of art, technology, consumerism, & leadership.
When I digest Ray's statements, I am reminded of my time working in theater. Very often, the leaders in that milieu such as choreographers and dance company directors, out of necessity, carry very strong visions and can be quite uncompromising, almost tyrannical in their pursuit of excellence.
Although not by any means an absolute, but more often than not, being nice seems nearly incompatible with the striving, execution, expression and survival of their vision.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Feb 11, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
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sweet post. I meant to do the same thing a while back. I have a copy of this catalog. It's pretty cool.
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O.D.
Trad climber
LA LA Land
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Feb 11, 2008 - 02:01pm PT
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Thanks for the post, Ed. I've still got my '72 catalog but had forgotten about the '75 edition -- it brings back good memories. Those are nice clear scans, too.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Feb 11, 2008 - 03:42pm PT
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RE:
"Although not by any means an absolute, but more often than not, being nice seems nearly incompatible with the striving, execution, expression and survival of their vision."
it was different, it was the dark ages at the diamond C, they were out of touch w/ the market, YC was high on himself and thought that meant he could forgo basic respect in open, company-wide communications. His mouth hurt a lot of people, his crazy little-kid scheduling tantrums created a hostile and unrealistic work environment that cost 3 people their jobs, that I saw.
YC had a side that needed, at that time, to be straightened out but he kept hiding, exhibiting his meanness only where protected - on his turf at work. I really wonder if he'd have the guts to say it now, or if he's even a bigger chickensh*t, than ever.
the lack of a question mark is not a punctuation error, either.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2008 - 10:01pm PT
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I certainly don't see this thread as an argument... I posted the GPIW 1975 catalog scans because I thought they had value to the community. Certainly many of us who got to read them when they were first published benefited greatly from much of the writing. It is hard to imagine that that time had little written in English about climbing, and even if you could read French or German or Russian, not much translated to what was being done or attempted.
If you look at page 90 you see the sum total of the relevant climbing literature:
Big Wall Climbing by Doug Scott, Basic & Advanced Rock Craft Royal Robbins, and The Vertical World of Yosemite by Galen Rowell (which is not so much a exposition of climbing as of climbs). Only Robbins' books were costed within the budget of a guy like me at the time.
Of the 5 periodicals listed, only one, AAJ, has been in continuous publication since that time, and the other one still published, Mountain Gazette is under different editorship...
So when this catalog came in the mail, a response to a request and free for the asking, whole vistas of how the sport was changing, instructions on how to use the gear, and how we should, and why we shouldn't bang the crap out of everything (as I had just been taught in a Sierra Club Rock Climbing Section course... which instructed in the use of pitons, but no nuts!) were opened to us.
We could have gone to the Valley and learned at the knees of the masters, but many of us were too young. Instead we gleaned what we could from these books. Scuffy, upon seeing the page 7 illustration of a 'biner brake muttered, "it's a wonder we weren't all killed." But that is how we learned.
I would like to know more about Chouinard the man. My view is not unlike those I held of my parents... they seemed to always be old. Yet they were growing at the same time I was, and that makes a lot understandable. Chouinard is an image, a myth we hold. The reality is richer and more interesting, in my opinion.
Now people who only heard about them and had never had a chance to read them can. I'm hoping there is value there.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:02pm PT
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Yes Ed that's all well and good and historical and stuff.
And Chouinard did foment a movement within us to be sure (enter the tsunami logo perhaps?)
But did you see the winning bid on that matched set of 55cm bamboo Zeros???
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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(enter the tsunami logo perhaps?)
My favorite t shirt, for a while.
Katsushika Hokusai, "Great Wave off of Kanagawa"
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 11, 2008 - 11:28pm PT
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I loved that catalog. It's where I learned everything I needed to know about stacked hexes! This technique was topped only by Jeff Lowe's stacked TriCams.
Now THOSE were the days...
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72hw
Trad climber
Hollyweird, CA
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Feb 12, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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As someone who has been climbing for little over a year but who is acutely interested in the history, myth and legend associated with the rope, I cannot thank you enough for posting the catalog. Of course the conversation has been quite interesting too! Though I trust the recollections put forth in books like "Ways to the Sky" and "Camp 4" among others, the candid comments above pull no punches and carry the weight of first person experience that compliments the more edited, safer versions of history I have been exposed to thus far.
Again, many thanks!
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Feb 12, 2008 - 01:09am PT
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Although I had been climbing with my dad since mid 60's it was about '75 when I actually started dropping big bucks (so it felt to this $1.50 an hour dishwasher) for real gear. I swear, in addition to reading that catalog 50 times, I bought almost all the stuff in it. ha Chouinard rope, check, bamboo ax, check, hexes, stoppers, supergators, foamback cagole, ultimate thule pack, rigid crampons - all part of my kit and my memories and still my idea of what climbing is all about. (I did avoid the rugby shirt thing. ha, I was too hippie for that)
Raydog seems to have a bit of problem he needs to get over. Who hasn't had a bad boss? But that's part of what being a boss is all about - pushing people beyond their comfort zone. We're all human with personality defects yet Chouinard played a huge role in changing the game for the better. Anyway, its been 30 years. Get over it, sheesh.
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Banjo
Social climber
Undeterminable
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Jun 13, 2008 - 12:50pm PT
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[who are the people on Page 2?
I know the Chouinards and the Frosts...]
“Those people” on page 2, as well as I can remember (because I’m in the pic at 20 years old and we’re talkin’ 34 years ago!) are (left to right, starting at the top row):
Malinda Chouinard, (pregnant with Fletcher), Yvon, unknown guy, Kris McDivitt (holding lab pup—Diesel’s sibling), Tex Bossier, 3 women from the sweat shop (sewing/seamstresses), Doreen Frost, Tom Frost.
2nd Row: Susan Earl, Clova Campbell, Nancy McNiel, unknown seamstress, Val Franco, unknown seamstress, Gary Kennedy, Jeff Chouinard.
3rd Row: Hong Kyu Kwak, unknown iron worker, Frank Roderick, lab Diesel (Roger's puppy), Roger McDivitt, Victor Sanchez.
Bottom Row: Vincent Stanley, Julio Varela, Tom Dixon, Chinook (sp?!), a Lowe perhaps?
This photo shows everyone who worked at GPIW at that time (except for the retail store employees)… before the company split into Chouinard Equipment and Patagonia.
Wow. We were so much younger then… What an era!
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 13, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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Thanks, Ed, for the scanning work which is first class. Looking forward to the rest of it...
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Jun 13, 2008 - 01:44pm PT
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Damm... I have a lot of stuff that is in that catalog.. time to upgrade
Brian
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purplesage
Trad climber
Bend, OR
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Jun 13, 2008 - 03:28pm PT
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Feeling lucky to have both those catalogs and even more lucky to also have that same pair of ice tools. The catalogs along with Basic and Advanced by Robbins were holy books during my formative climbing years.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 13, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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rockermike--
Raydog's comments don't strike me at all like a typical rant about the boss. He had some pretty specific and relevant criticisms (i.e., the boss's tendency to sabotoge his own deadlines and then blame victims) that ring true to things I've seen elsewhere. Certainly, a guru self-image would be the dark flip side of that entire Whole-Earth-catalog paradigm that GPIW took as a model. Nor did Raydog make any extravagant claims about GPIW or Chouinard Equipment or Patagonia design.
Boy those axes are beautiful. I'm not surprised at the winning bid. Stuff usually sells for more in an auction than on a dealer's shelf. Nice, hand-crafted stuff is hard to find. And they weren't all that cheap new, once you run the inflation calculator.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 13, 2008 - 08:24pm PT
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btw, Thanks for posting this up, Ed. I have part of this catalog xeroxed-- it was one of my early climbing textbooks, alongside the Robbins and FOTH.
Wish I had some of that old Italian corduroy-- the new stuff isn't nearly as durable.
Can anyone identify the woman climber on p.56?
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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Jun 13, 2008 - 09:37pm PT
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One of the best posts ever! It was neat to price the old hexes, nuts, an rope passed down to me by my father. I learned on all that equipment that we had before I was born.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 13, 2008 - 11:24pm PT
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Acronyms can get so conflicted.
GPIW----- General Purpose Interface ?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2008 - 11:46pm PT
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 14, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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Here's a fine piece of equipment from that era, which should fit right in.
There's a story to go with it, for guido.
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Banjo
Social climber
Undeterminable
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Jun 14, 2008 - 01:52am PT
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Hey, way to sort out the I.D. of the Great Pacific Iron Workers of 1974! One small mistake though... your arrow for Val Franco is now pointing to Nancy McNiel (in your post above). Val Franco is directly behind the puppy, Diesel, resting on her owner Roger's shoulder... and between Nancy and Val is one of the unknown (by me) but hardworking seamstresses at the time. And, now I've also suddenly remembered Diesel's sister's name, in the arms of Kris McDivitt. She's Sally.
This probably isn't a huge deal in the grand historical scheme of things, but, thought at least the faces I was sure about ought to be represented correctly. Afterall, they're all someone's baby!
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jun 14, 2008 - 09:22am PT
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Ed & Raydog,
So often with this technological medium of communication something is lost in the exchange. Thank you both for a thoughtful and well constructed dialogue, I'm amazed.
Charlie D.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jun 14, 2008 - 11:27am PT
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Ed:
Thanks for the post. That is for sure a great piece of climbing history. Climbers now-a-days may find it hard to believe that there was a time when it was difficult to find literature about climbing (especially rock climbing). I agree with the comment that DR did more to assist the evolution of clean climbing than he's given credit for.
Great post: brings back wonderful memories and causes me to reflect on the changes the sport will see in the next 30 years.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jun 14, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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I loved my old Super Rope. The joke was "on belay, push".
It was a bit stiff but the concept of a triple core was brilliant. Surprised modern skinny ropes dont utilize it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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ok Banjo, changed it again... hopefully I got it right this time
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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A few years fly by on this thread & today I click on Ed Hartouni's link to his scans of the Chouinard/ Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog,
http://my.xfinity.com/~e.hartouni/GPIW/GPIW.html
& get this instead.
A Google search shows me several sites that have a few pages of that classic catalog, which with slight yearly changes, served from 1975 - 1977.
Anyone got a link to a complete page by page scan?
What I'm really looking for is the 1976 version with the newly introduced Zero & North Wall hammer with bamboo shafts.
Here's what the cover looks like.
I did find This scan of The history of Chouinard Firsts, out of the 1976 catalog.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
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I'll try to get it reposted on my new website this week...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2016 - 09:09pm PT
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Ed! Much thanks! I added your update with the below information to the CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2906806&tn=0#msg2914788
Much Thanks to Ed Hartouni for all his work on updating his GPIW 1975 thread on Supertopo, by once again posting his 1975 catalog scan!
I added it to the first post on this thread!
A complete page by page scan of the Chouinard/Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog, which with minor changes was also their 1976-77 catalog. Much thanks to Ed Hartouni for doing all the scanning & posting on ST.
http://www.edhartouni.net/great-pacific-ironworks-1975.html
Does anyone else have old gear threads that they would like linked to this update/catalog thread?
Post up!
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Thanks! I used to love my trips down there. Such memories.
Susan
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Thanks Ed.
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