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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 31, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Jive-ass retrobolt, IMO.
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Back of beyond
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Mar 31, 2009 - 11:46pm PT
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who's we? man, do we have to go thru this again? a minority. a dictator. a self appointed lord of the throne telling us what is to be? hasn't the debate about a guide v. no guide been hashed thru enough? haven't we seen the destruction relevant to both sides of the issue? why is information only restricted by a few and to "word of mouth" or via e-mail to those who these few individuals deem to be worthy? who do these individuals think they are in a positon to set the standards? why do we empower them? who elected them? have we not seen that the true power of the climbing community is in its inclusiveness?
sorry, but i guess you can tell this touches a nerve......
s**t!!!!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Anxious Melancholy, do you actually know something about the area? Or are you just trippin' over something that you know nothing about, but perhaps metaphorically relates to another venue?
It's laughable how some people think the beta should be open and freely distributed, yet know little about the history and have done nothing to contribute. Entitled, egocentric users who sound like whining babies.
Oplopanax, thanks for the TR link. Props to those guys who went without beta to do something adventurous. Grown men with huevos, and not snot-nosed whiny brats.
Some people actually find it refreshing that wilderness and adventure climbing remains to be found within such close proximity to the millions of people in SoCal and Tijuana.
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Back of beyond
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Yes, Mr Smallwood, I am familiar with the area, both as a climber and first ascensionist, and consider my input here as a positive contribution to a continuing dialog regarding the self designation of a few individuals who attempt to restrict access only to those whom they deem worthy. Time and time again we see this kind of action as being detrimental to the sport, as well as society at large. Embracing diversity leads to an empowerment of our humanity. If we seek, wilderness persists.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Anxious Melancholy,
Interesting. So, why hide behind a pseudonym? You got something to say to me, why don't you say it? My e-address is no secret. I only know of one person, who has done a couple FAs, and is in favor of publishing. Two others are on the fence over the issue.
Since you have at least climbed there and know something about the area, your previous questions deserve a serious response.
Q: "Who's we?"
A: All of the original developers who remained in contact thru the 70s & 80s, except for one or two who had maybe 1/2 dozen FAs on crags.
Q: "Do we have to go through this again?"
A: No. You are the one who has engaged a debate. I merely replied to Largo's question with some facts. That's some interesting projection going on.
Q: "A minority. A dictator. A self-appointed lord of the throne telling us what is to be?"
A: I certainly don't see myself representing a minority. Over 98% of climbers polled, and who have visited the area, are opposed to publishing. They articulate valid reasons for their position.
Self-appointed, yes. I volunteered to battle the threat of a published guidebook. It was not isolated, though I did most of the work and was the hub of communication in the binational effort. USA and Mexican attorney-climbers provided legal preparation and filing, and a Mexican climber translated to Spanish.
My role of steward to protect the area, has been continuous from 1974 to present. Usually that meant "janitor". Other times it was stopping illegal logging, bighorn poachers, and graffiti taggers. In 2003-04, my role was to stop the publication of a guidebook by one individual who narcissistically decided to profit, regardless of what the climbing community wanted or what was best for the preservation of the area.
Q: "Hasn't the debate about a guide vs. no guide been hashed through enough?"
A: I had thought so. You are the one who seems to want to renew a debate. I was done in 2004, after a year's tiring work. Dead issue as far as I'm concerned. The area won. Said individual was served with paperwork by uniformed Sheriff's deputy at his doorstep. I gave him the courtesy of a letter which outlined the penalties for copyright violations in the USA and Mexico. The penalties were also described, including the felony status in Mexico, (no bail on felonies there), and the possibility of extradition under the Berne Convention. Seems that said individual wisely decided not to publish.
Q: "Haven't we seen the destruction relevant to both sides of the issue?"
A: I must be missing something here. Sorry to answer a question with a question, but what is the "destruction" in not publishing a guidebook? That must be a stretch. The only destruction that I have observed is subsequent to publication, when a wilderness is impacted by increased traffic or the landowners lock climbers out.
Q: "Why is information only restricted by a few and to 'word of mouth' or via e-mail to those who these few individuals deem to be worthy?"
A: The short answer is that I have tirelessly collected detailed beta for 35 years. Over half the routes there are my FAs. Most of the bolts were paid for out of my hard earned money. I don't owe anyone anything; it's my choice to share beta or not. If someone doesn't like it he/she can be adventurous and explore for him/herself.
The long answer is that a large proportion who have climbed there found out about it either through me or indirectly (introduced by someone whom I had introduced). I have encouraged and promoted Mexican climbers to use their resource. I routinely answer requests for info via e-mail, approx. monthly, and spend considerable time customizing my response to their specific needs. I guide and give seminars, pro bono. Along with that info, I attempt to instill ethics toward taking care of the place. That strategy has worked well over the years. I can only think of one person in recent years to whom I have denied beta. A Euro rap-bolter who was audacious to announce that he was planning to bolt a new route on the Throne (without ever having been there).
Q: "Who do these individuals think they are in a position to set the standards?"
A: It seems that you mean me. For the most part, I didn't set the standards. I do, however, maintain them. Trad ethics. Ground-up. No dumping trash. I know who I am and what I've done to develop and take care of the place. Just what is your effort to earn a role in setting standards? If someone voluteers to clean up other's trash and fire pits for 35 years, do you blame him for being a "self-appointed" janitor?
Q: "Why do we empower them? Who elected them?"
A: You don't. You don't have the power to empower anyone. It's not an elected position. Positive contributions, leadership, work, and volunteering is what you are observing and calling a "dictatorship". As you said, your "positive contribution" is "a continuing dialog regarding the self designation of a few individuals...". Exactly how much does that contribute in the stewardship for the area? Seems like that's an exaggerated value of self-importance.
Q: "Have we not seen that the true power of the climbing community is in its inclusiveness?"
A: Huh? Inclusiveness of what? Reading between the lines, I'm wondering how you feel excluded. Please feel free to enlighten me. I've included hundreds of people. I'm guessing that you somehow don't go there any longer, having excluded yourself, and now seem to have unfinished business with the place. And using a bone to pick with me as your personal battleground. Somehow I doubt that I'm the issue, nor is the dead guidebook issue. I'd be willing to bet that either I, or my main FA partner, introduced you to the area. That would be ironic!
If there really is some personal business to finish, either with me or someone you perceive as aligned with me, then I suggest you set about doing it directly and honestly.
-John Smallwood
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Ghoulwe
Trad climber
Spokane, WA
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As a Canon Tajo “regular” and occasional first-ascentionist from 1982 through 2002, I’d like to acknowledge that John has spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of hours of his time cleaning up and maintaining this beautiful area. I’ve spent my fair share too, but there were many times when I’d see him show up mid-day Sunday and put in a few hours cleaning up after other climbers and campers that left trash, burning embers, etc… and haul it all home in his own vehicle. He has also been at the front-end of route establishing since long before I moved to the area. I left San Diego in 2002 and turned over all of my route notes to him as I knew that he’d be the best keeper of the info.
Everyone that I knew and climbed with down there, pretty much found and explored the area just fine. The adventures were grand and the lack of a guidebook didn’t dissuade anyone as much as the fear of going to Mexico itself. I think if you are interested in going down there to climb, just do it. You’ll probably run into John and he’ll share route information with you!
Eric Barrett
Spokane, WA
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wtfd
climber
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ill third the honerable mention of the steward of the throne, leave it as it is, its a unique area that deserves what work has been put into it to preserve its beauty.
f*#k a guide book.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Generally, I'm an "information wants to be free" kind of guy, and I love guidebooks to boot. The conversation back in 2004 though won me over to the no guidebook camp, and I honestly believe that a guidebook to Canon Tajo will do nothing to make the world a better place. It's a great place to climb, but you won't much be able to plan your trip from your armchair, you'll have to get out there and make it up on the fly. It's a rare thing to have an area that's rather developed yet maintains a degree of the kind of mystery and adventure that finding a new area can deliver. Exploration with training wheels. I suppose this sort of thing constitutes the "dialogue" that Mr. Melancholy wants to continue, but really, the debate is over until some future generation. Another thumbs up for John Smallwood's devotion.
Doug "Off" White
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F10
Trad climber
e350
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I had some great times in the seventies and eighties down there!
Just let it be, nothing wrong with a little adventure,
Folks complain about getting lost, must not have picked up enough tequilla at the border!!
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apogee
climber
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John, I posted my experience at Canon Tajo a few months ago on this thread- did the Pan Am, and was robbed at gunpoint (and shot at) at the trailhead.
Having spent decades in San Diego, I have heard occasional tales about robberies and violence in and around Canon Tajo over the years. What has been your experience with this? Are there any common threads that seem to link the incidents?
By the way, thank you for your dedicated time and effort in preserving this area.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apogee,
There were several incidents in the Sierra de Juarez in the mid-90s. Yours was the most serious at basecamp. There were a couple robberies on the dirt road, an armed robbery carjacking w/ pistol whipping at Laguna Hanson. An offroad racer was shot in the leg while prerunning. Several vehicles were torched by mota growers in the palm canyons below the sierra.
Several car burglaries at base camp until 2002 or so. Haven't heard of any problems since then.
I'm down there frequently, but purposely stay away from Tijuana and the Pacific campsites.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Anxious Melancholy,
May I suggest that you start a new thread, something like "Guidebooks to wilderness areas, pros & cons"?
This has been a cool thread to feel good and see stories and photos of the adventure that Tajo has to offer.
Maybe post up a TR or photos.
Got the Baja van packed and I'm outta here...
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apogee
climber
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Before you head out...
About the time of our incident, I had heard that there was a lot of local resentment towards the 'gringos' in the area, in particular the baja xc motorcycle races that would cross private ranchos and tear the sh*t out of them. Supposedly, this resentment was the source of much vandalism and violence.
Any truth to that? Have there been other consistent 'themes' in the incidents over the years?
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Guidebooks make authors money and make areas crowded. Other than that what good are they?
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Guidebooks tell interested people what has & hasn't been climbed yet, and make accessible the full historical record. There's plenty of cool routes at Red Rocks I would never have found or climbed without the guidebooks, and plenty more that I have never done that I want to do because I've read about them in the guidebook and been thereby motivated.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 12, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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The obscure "mythical" VW Route topo as I drew it in 1973.
Guess what "VW" stood for - not Volkswagen. It was something Tom Condon and TM kept bringing up on our drive towards Tijuana in Herbert's Travelall - virgin wh_res!
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:31am PT
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I'd given out a few topos in my day but am still glad that I didn't go against the grain publishing and possibly spoiling this perfect place, I can return with dignity one day...
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:55am PT
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"Guidebooks make authors money"
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Whew. That's a good one.
Made my morning.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 30, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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Trono Bump!
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 30, 2009 - 05:11pm PT
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good bump.
Lots of adventures down there.
Watching E eat the worm was the hi-light.
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