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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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If I choose to buy cheap gear the results of that decision have to be acceptable.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2007 - 08:44pm PT
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That cam is anything but cheap.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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wes - go read dingus's excellent reply to the inmate assertion in the other thread please.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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I know a guy named Barry. He refuses to climb with anyone's rack that has omega pacific gear on it. He feels the equipment was made under slave labor conditions.
-JR
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2007 - 08:53pm PT
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"You want me to read, you do the work and provide the link."
Upthread, click on the blue writing that is underlined.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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whoa.
lotsa love there, eh ? thanks for not being a dick...oh, wait...
Long story short is they are not made using an inmate labor program.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Wes - accepted and appreciated, very much so. You get many kudos for that imho...
To condense much of the other thread - there was and is a recall of some units related to cracks in the lobe at the connecting pins
http://www.omegapac.com/op_climbing_notices.html
this unit *could* have failed in a similar manner. The OP rep is very much in the loop, and they are investigating the issue. So far OP is very open and honest on the whole thing.
I am very very glad to see no one was seriously hurt here.
-Tom
edit : and I'm still buying used aliens ;-)
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Indianclimber
climber
Las Vegas
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Inmates may have assembled those but they are not responsible for the metallic strength of the parts.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Even without a crack, the lower cams contact the axles between cams for only half of their width. So they are less strong than conventional cams for leveraged situations like the placement in the pocket/pin scars low down on Left Ski Track. [Edit: well that is my theory; ML's tests say they fail with the same range of competitor's cams under those types of loads]
You may recall that a particular model of Friends with rivets on the ends of the axles were recalled because they could fail in similar leveraged loads. (I still have some of those on my rack; fewer people remember the recall these days!)
[Edit: photos located and added]
For "equal time", here are some photos of a broken Metolius Ultralight 00 TCU:
http://www.coolclimbing.com/rockgearbroken01.htm
And of course, biners have been broken occasionally, such as when Goran Kropp died at Frenchman Coulee.
But, yeah, I haven't seen a cam sheared off the axle like that before.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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definitely a concern, but I wouldn't let one busted cam decide for me that all such cams were dangerous.
Aside from all the alien stuff, there was an incidend at indian creek a couple years ago where a guy decked. One cam pulled, and a trango cam below it basically exploded.
Link cams are great! I wish I had some. But, I got plenty of cams, can't justify purchasing more.
As an aside, funny how people still freak out about the whole prison labor thing. Gee, training guys in jail a trade. What a terrible idea and how socially irresponsible.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2007 - 09:25pm PT
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Clint, What metolius cam are you talking about?
If a Camalot spontaniously combusts, I don't think I want to know.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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wescrist, OP no longer makes their stuff in the prison in Spokane. They did for many years but for a variety of reasons stopped doing it a couple of years ago. It wasn't slave labor. It was mostly criminals from the blue-collar world who didn't commit any crimes of violence. They were paid a reasonable wage which was placed in savings for them when they got out (I may not have that exactly right but it's close) and they learned a trade while they were at it.
I pretty sure that no LinkCam was ever made in the prison.
Mal
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Posts like this do not do much for my false sense of security….
Prod
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Any cam is inherently weaker when pulled off its axis. Imagine placing a cam in a vertical crack but leaving the stem pointing horizontal or even upwards. In a fall, if the lobes can't rotate down(placed in a pod), the force will tend to rip them off the axle instead of pushing then into it. Even more force if it's a rigid stem Friend. The lobe would break at its weakest...link.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"Posts like this do not do much for my false sense of security…"
dude - that's what the PBR is for...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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" http://www.omegapac.com/op_climbing_notices.html "
Signed by the sales/marketing guy. I'm not impressed, especially given his vested interest in telling everyone everything's going to be just fine (unless of course you happen to be one of the few who gets killed or maimed).
Yet another cam company confused by the differences between a laboratory fixture and a crack climb.
J
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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Hello, Everyone ...
Two issues look like they're converging here in an unlikely mix.
First is the issue of the broken cam Melissa linked from rc.com. That's being addressed with the owner of the cam and openly on that thread. We (Omega Pacific) got the cam last week and we're conducting tests to determine what may have contributed to this failure. My post on that forum is included below for your reference. It's also the most recent information we have, so far. As more becomes available, we'll be transparent about the whats, the whys and the what-we're-gonna-dos as we always are.
Second is the prison issue ...
We used to participate in the US D.O.J.s "Prison Industry Enhancement Program" which permits companies in participating states to move their operations inside a qualifying medium-security prison and employ inmates as workers, clerks, shippers, etc.
We did so for nine years and it was (is) an incredible program. It wasn't slave labor. In fact, it wasn't even cheap labor. We were audited by Washington State annually to ensure we were paying our employees the same wage we'd pay any other worker on the outside for the same job. The program was demonstrably responsible for lower recidivism rates. It kept families together while their husband/father/breadwinner was incarcerated as most of our employees sent their wages back home to their families. They paid federal income tax like you and me. They paid into the state's worker's comp program like you and me. A portion of their wage went to victim restitution. Our employees in that program were as equipped, trained and qualified as any person in any climbing company in our industry. In fact, they were principally responsible for earning our company its ISO 9001 status in 2003.
In 2004, however, Washington State withdrew from that program and forced our relocation and the replacement of our workforce.
It was AFTER the move to our new location and the hiring of our new workforce that we even began building Link Cams ... not that it would matter, though.
Our previous crew was obsessive about building and maintaining a "Zero Defect Culture" and we enjoyed an excellent quality record during the time we were inside the prison. They took it more seriously than you think. And they did understand what we were making and how important it was to get it right, believe me.
The move to our new facility was a struggle in a lot of ways because we lost all that history and knowledge and it took some time before we were back to where we were. But we did get back and part of that success was our hiring of former employees who'd worked for us while they were incarcerated but were since released. Approximately eleven or twelve percent of our current labor force are former employees, in fact. We are proud of the fact that we are carrying on the spirit of the program even if Washington forced us out.
But all this is old news, really, and completely irrelevant to the issue of this cam. I bring it up only to set the record straight. We are completely open about our involvement and support of this program and are more than happy to discuss it personally with anyone who's interested. Give me a call, if you'd like more information about it. I take a lot of pride in being involved with the program and the employees we worked with.
As for this cam, please see the post below ... we'll share more information as we complete our investigation and QC provides its report. I'd recommend you spend a few minutes reading the thread as there is a lot of good information there.
As always, if you want to reach me about this, give me a call or drop me an email: 800.360.3990 or info@omegapac.com
--ML
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Michael Lane
Sales & Marketing Director
Omega Pacific
Airway Heights, WA
Hi, Everyone ...
As Dirtme has stated, he and I have been in contact ... several times, actually ... and although we don't have a lot to go on, yet, we've begun our investigation and done what testing we can in advance of tomorrow, when the cam is due to arrive.
Many of you have posted good questions and we'll do our best to test to as many of them as possible and we'll be forthcoming with the answers as soon as we can. The fact is, though, that there may not be too much to share until the entire process is complete.
I was a climber before I worked for the industry, though, so I understand the need for info.
So, this might answer a couple of questions but it must be understood that this may or may not have any context to the issue Dirtme had last week.
We have tested the assembled links for what we call "over-edge" strength. That is, we set up a perpendicular force on one end of a set of outstretched links with the opposite end anchored, stressed over an obstacle, or edge at the mid-points to test the ultimate strength of the hinge points. For comparison, we also purchased and disassembled competitors' cams (four different brands representing all other major players in cams on the market today) and tested their solid, single-piece lobes in the same manner. Our linkage assemblies fail right in the center of the four other brands: some broke at greater levels of force and some broke at lower levels. We performed multiple tests for each brand. You'll have to trust me that these were brands we all know and trust. Deservedly so, I should add, as none of these failed at levels that would alarm anyone.
It must be recognized that there is no standard nor any required strength rating for lobes or links to meet when tested in this manner. Likewise, there is no standardized testing to determine same. It was done solely to confirm earlier, similar tests performed during our R&D phase and to establish--as best we can--some sort of consensus for similar products.
At this point, there isn't anything to suggest that this is not an isolated event. Obviously, there are a number of factors involved in Dirtme's incident. We'll work as best we can to account for them and to determine the cause of the failure.
Hope this helps for now. More to come.
Regards,
--ML
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Thank you Michael for addressing these concerns.
-Tom
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Well Gee, I don't go to RC.com any more either, but I do think I wrote about something like this possibly happening to those cams a long time ago.
It looks like the cam torqued in the crack, being tipped radially around its long axis and levering the cam lobes almost perpendicular to their flat faces, or am I wrong about that?
So does anyone know how this cam was placed? Could it be that the stem was sticking straight out of the wall, (or nearly so) as in, perpendicular to the face of the wall?
Normal cams just rotate in this circumstance, and walk in or out, sometimes with dire consequences. I don't see that it matters if the cam comes out of the crack or just plain breaks, as either way you're in trouble.
Thanks to the OP woman for her post.
Much better than CCH.
Congrats on helping prisoners turn their lives around!
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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I write like a woman?
Thanks.
--ML
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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So you're saying, that's not a girl's name?
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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Michael Learned was Mom Walton, I think, back in the 70s, but she's the only female Michael I've ever heard of.
Yes. I think, generally, Michael is considered a boy's name.
--ML
edited for spelling of Ma Walton's name.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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I thought I was michaellane, all one word, like some sort of weird french candian thing.
Does this mean we can't date?
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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I'll give it a shot ... but you hafta pick up the tab.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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When dirtineye said "OP" he mean Original Poster, i.e. Melissa. (not OP = Omega Pacific)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Allright, how about Jack in the Box, or Captain D's?
Now if I can just work LEB in here some how...
Bizarro world edit:
At this point, I'd LOVE to be able to bow out gracefully, but I really did mean Omega Pacific.
IF those places don't suit you, how about Burger King?
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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>>
When dirtineye said "OP" he mean Original Poster, i.e. Melissa. (not OP = Omega Pacific)
>>
Oh ... well, that makes sense.
Does this mean he won't ask me out?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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No No!! the date is on!!!
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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The links are hybrid ... the two inner links are 17-4 stainless made by Metal Injection Molding process. The outer link is forged 7000-series aluminum.
The MIM process for the steel provides near-machined strength with the precision and detail of casting.
--ML
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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"We have tested the assembled links for what we call "over-edge" strength"
Not quite as irrelevant as CCH building a flying trapeze in their back yard, but almost.
http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html
Please post back when you have *repeated* the failure. Until then, you don't know anything.
J
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WBraun
climber
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Michael Lane
Thanks for the history of your company and the prisoner workforce. That was pretty cool.
And even cooler that some of them are still working for you after they were released.
Kudos to you, Werner
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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dirtineye said:
>>>
Allright, how about Jack in the Box, or Captain D's?
Now if I can just work LEB in here some how...
>>>
Bring her along ... I've been wanting to meet Dingus in person ...
--ML
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Bring her along ... I've been wanting to meet Dingus in person ...
Hahaha! Good one.
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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Forging was tried, but it wasn't capable of the tolerances we required. I'll have to get back with the specific comparison of forged v. MIM strength.
edit: and casting was deliberately abandoned because of strength issues as you note.
--ML
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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""dirtineye said:
>>>
Allright, how about Jack in the Box, or Captain D's?
Now if I can just work LEB in here some how...
>>>
Bring her along ... I've been wanting to meet Dingus in person ...
--ML ""
So, now you want, a threesome?
Do I have to pay DMT/LEB's tab too?
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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For what it's worth, we tested a bunch of our cams and all of our competitor's cams in an off-axis pull while we were developing them. We wanted to know how they performed if the cams were jammed at an angle and then pulled straight. Basically we simulated the placement in this discussion. Our test fixture is a steel box with steel shims that can be stacked to adjust the width. The face plates, the ones that hold the cam, are faced with a variety of rock types and a range of roughness. What we did was put a spacer in the bottom of the box to hold one side of the cam. When the force was applied the cams was essentially fixed at an angle (about 25°) so there were all kinds of weird loads applied. In all cases, the cams were placed at 75% of their maximum range. In other words, a really, really crappy placement.
Surprise, surprise, the Link Cam was the strongest of the bunch and all but one brand went to the cam's minimum rated strength. I won' tell you which cam didn't meet their spec but you could have knocked me over with a feather when I saw the results.
Unfortunately this was just one test, there is no standard for this test and we used a very, very small sample set so the results may not be statistically significant. What I think is significant is that all cams are pretty damn strong when blocked in an off-axis pull. For the most part a cam in a placement like the one in question should hold a good load.
Just another FYI from Malcolm
Climb Safe,
Mal
BTW, we test a lot of cams. When the placements fail--when a cam begins to rip out of the rock--in many cases the cam is then destroyed. It's weird. If you pull test a cam that is placed poorly, say tipped out cam lobes or whatever, more often than not the cam will break as it's being yanked out of the rock. If you didn't watch it as it was being pulled it would be very difficult to tell if the cam broke first and then pulled out or if the cam pulled out and then broke. The picture of that Metolius cam is a great example. I can not tell from the picture which came first, the axle breaking or the placement failing. If that was placed with one pair of cams tipped out and the the other bomber, when the load came it could have easily ripped the end of that axle off.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Stoppers and hexes… I’ve never seen one break… if the cord/sling material is kept in good shape.
And they are less expensive as well.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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bong hits for all !!
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Murf
climber
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Malcolm, chiming in to defend a competitor's product is very cool.
You are a class act!
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michaellane
climber
Spokane, WA
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Do I have to pay DMT/LEB's tab too?
Nah ... let's get him/her to pay!
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Will Eccleston
Trad climber
Atlanta, GA
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Quote from above "I still wouldn't kick it off my rack for eating cookies but no way I'm wiping onto one."
Why would you carry a cam that you weren't willing to take a HARD fall on? (Unless you were aid climbing)?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Disclaimer: I've played with a link cam but haven't climbed with any.
My impression was that the cams on either side of the stem don't act very indepedently. So the cams retract the same amount on both sides when you pull the trigger. This is fine in parralel cracks, but in flares (where a hybrid works good) they would only grab on two lobes on one side. Perhaps this puts more force on one side of the cams causing uneven force to the cam lobes when placed in a flair.
I think they'd be great for Indian Creek, where you'd want a bunch of the same size cams for a parralel splitter crack. With the added range they'd work good for more than one crack width. But for Yosemite where there are so many pin scars and other flared placements I don't think they'd be so good.
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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The link cams are awesome for going light and fast while french-freeing.
Plug and go, always bomber.
Gear breaks, plan accordingly.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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I met Michael Lane at Red Rocks last March. While he is clearly a hottie and quite nice, he just didn't strike me as Dirtineye's type. NTTIAWWT
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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I've never fallen with out knowing I was gonna fall.
Damn, I sure have.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Maybe the metal alloy was imported from China...
Craftsman cutters made in China. I only buy German, Japanese, or American tools now.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Michael Lane -
BadAss! Thanks for sharing the history of your company and it's use of the DOJ's PIEP!! I think it's awesome what you guys were/are doing, the reasons for doing it, etc. It is infinitely cool that you guys are still employing some of those folks after their incarceration is over. Super cool!
Cheers!
--rw
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana
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Planes crashes and cams break...what a concept!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Maldaly,
I wonder if you (or anyone else) will run a test like that where the cam stem is 90 degrees to the rock face, with the lobes in a vertical crack, fully link cammed out?
That's interesting about when the cam breaks. Possibly if it broke under compression you might not see that til the cam was free of the crack and the pieces can fall apart in an obvious way? Just a guess.
I have to be happy that your test backs up my long standing (and seemingly obvious) notion that cams placed so that lobes are under rotational forces where one side of lobes moves about the other as the stem is levered in a fall is bad. Since one set of lobes is moving away from the fall vector (up), the axle and the fixed lobe is taking a beating, and your test seems to support this
Michaellane, Good idea about DMT/LEB paying. With two personalities they probably have twice as much money to spend, or at least they think they do.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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shameless bump indeed.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Shame on you, dirt. My tests came from being out in the field and seeing way too many people stuff cams in bottoming cracks so they were prevented from rotating to line up with the force of the fall. My fixture won't allow me to test at exactly 90° but I can come close with cams less than 2".
What I didn't mention about my tests is that every cam was ruined way before it failed. In other words, even at low loads--the kind you see in falls every day--you're likely to trash your cam if you place it in a manner that prevents it from lining up with the forces of a fall. Strangely enough the classic stem-over-the-edge situation rarely trashed single stem cams. Almost always trashed u-frame cams due the the nature of the standing rigging wire they use for the frames. It kinks.
Climb safe,
Mal
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Yes, yes, Mal, preach it baby!
Thanks for including that bit about bottoming cracks. I'm agin 'em.
But I'd still like to know about the 90 degree thing where the cam can rotate, especially in a high fall factor situation, which must place nearly all the action on the side that is bearing the business as the upward moving side is going the wrong way.
I've always tried to get people to place cams in line with the fall, but all you get is looks of disbelief, and what you usually see is a quick draw on a cam that has either been placed at 90 degrees or rotated that way from rope dragage.
That the link cam, once placed out of line with the fall, can't even rotate, is what worries me about them.
Shame me some more if you got more to tell, by all means!
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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dirt,
If the cam can rotate into the line of the pull (along with the force) there should be no bad repercussions. It's when the cam can't rotate that weirdness happens. Like you, I'm always astonished when climbers stuff cams in without aligning them to the expected direction of pull. When you place a cam lined up correctly and sling it so it won't rotate as you move by, you will have a reasonably good idea of what it will do when it has to carry a load. If, on the other hand, you stuff in a cam and assume it will rotate to align correctly when you load it, you never have any idea what's really going to happen. This holds especially true with tiny cams. They just don't have the expansion range to adapt to crack changes.
mal
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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besides the chance for rotating cams to walk in or out, there still is an issue that I really don't think can be OK all the time.
when a cam rotates under a load, two lobes go up, and two pivot. The two that pivot are essentially fixed as the rotational point for the two that are moving up. these two fixed ones cant be moving down, or the cam would be falling out. so they are pivoting, which is not something they are designed for.
The two that pivot are at least going to get ground flat a little bit, and maybe twisted a little too, but maybe not so much that you'd notice.
the two lobes that pivot must be bearing the brunt of the fall. The axle must be strained. if some little rock feature stops the pivoting lobes from pivoting, then I guess that's real trouble, like you said.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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dirt, we don't see much evidence of damage when a cam that is free to rotate takes a big load. I think that in most cases the rotation happens before the main load hits. I've never seen any deformations on a cam lobe which have indications of twisting. I see diagonal scoring marks all the time but nothing that has a twisting component.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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well the diagonal marks back up my idea, I guess as you say it just usually doesn't amount to much until the cam can't rotate.
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foot slipped on lichen while laybacking a vertical, smooth-sided corner on one of Rumney's few trad routes;
Let us know!