Discussion Topic |
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 12, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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Warning: Spray Ahead, but newsworthy methinks…
I just wanted to give a shout out and give props and congratulate a few guys that have climbed The Streaked Wall in Zion, lately.
My good buddy Matt Erdmann from Wisconsin climbed the First Solo Ascent of the formation’s face via Tales of the Scorpion. This was a big one for Matt as he bailed off the route once before with a partner, this is a huge undertaking for a single person and a proud accomplishment. Very nice, Matt!! OOUUUAAHHHH!!!
Nate Brown and Matt Meinzer just did a 33.5 hour push on Latitudes, which is only the fourth time the routes have seen “speed” ascent's and second time from the parking lot to the summit, in a single push. Leaving their car at midnight they witnessed two sun rises and 28 hours on the wall proper before topping out on the summit. AWESOME guys!!
Nate also became a member of the “Triple Streaked” club. Yep… it’s small, just two members, haa haa.
Well, I probably shouldn’t mention my friend Kristoffer being up there, he’s solo as well. I can’t congratulate him yet but I know he’s going to make it. Hopefully we’ll get a trip report and pics first hand, after he sends. Sick!!!
Get out and GET IT!!!
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marky
climber
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Nov 12, 2007 - 01:37am PT
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not bad
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Kartch
climber
belgrade, mt
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Nov 12, 2007 - 09:09am PT
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The SUU and George Wythe alumni boards will be so proud.
Nice job my perps.
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Mr.T
Big Wall climber
topanga
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Nov 12, 2007 - 05:51pm PT
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WORD!!!
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Nov 12, 2007 - 11:04pm PT
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A proud effort by all, thanks for the news Ammon.
Keep us posted. Just the approach to the streaked wall with gear & water,is a grade IV for most folks.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2007 - 11:42pm PT
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Not a recent pic but here's a good one taken by Flouride, I think in '05
Edit: I heard Kris, aka: The Zephyr is a couple of pitches up... GO bro!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:13am PT
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So,......
how many ascents before the placements blow out from hammering?
Or doesn't it matter as long as you get to do it?
(We'll see if certain players can engage in a serious discussion, or just resort to derision.)
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Nov 13, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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Nice work to the climbers!
In terms of Ron's statement...I guess that push>shove the routes are there to be climbed. Responsibly and as clean as possible, but they are there to be climbed.
I'm going to plead ignorance on the specifics of the Streaked Wall, but I'm guessing that by the nature of Ammon's post, the thing doesn't go easily, and the folks that are on it aren't wall noobs who are going to bash the living hell out of the placements, overdrive pins, etc.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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What a buzz to be proud of; "I got there before it got pinned out."
"There to be climbed" ? Sort of selfish if it means their destruction as well. Even if they don't "bash", repeated hammering causes cumulative damage.
Unfortunately this is not a black and white issue as even nutting causes damage. There are compromises to made. But the Streaked Wall is at the most selfish end of the climbing spectrum.
Its all about "me first" and the proponents care little if at all about a legacy that may include the justification for the rangers to close all the rocks to everyone just to save trouble.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 13, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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yeah ron. they ought to place tons of bolt ladders, carve out nut placements and generally "make" an A1 route up the thing like some other famous zions climbers did on other walls years ago.
then they can bitch about the traffic.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 04:03pm PT
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Take a number.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
Bozeman
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Nov 13, 2007 - 04:44pm PT
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Nice!!!
looks like a very impressive wall, thanks for posting up!!!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 13, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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PR, it must be hell to suffer from short man syndrome....
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Nov 13, 2007 - 07:25pm PT
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flippin sweet.
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Orion
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 13, 2007 - 07:50pm PT
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Is that Nate Brown from Washington?
I think he's the same guy I hopped around cambodia with back in
2005.
Nice send regardless of if I know these guys!
Sam
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:01pm PT
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Sooooooo,.... I don't like seeing sandstone beat out because I'm short?
What's up with that Hawkeye?
(Like I said, serious discussion or just derision.)
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:21pm PT
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Blindeye has already made up his mind about unnecessary nailing. He's a boy of manifest destiny. You really show your colors with your comment to Ron, but no surprise.
I almost posted to Ammon as the second post but I held back again because I knew it would be confrontational. Thanks Ron for stepping up and reminding me that we have to continue to remind the masses about the consequences of bad style.
Ron has the stones to pony up and point this issue out AGAIN for you lame asses who don't give a crap and don't have the skill, desire, or patience to aid climb at a higher level. I hope Ammon posts up and reports that we are wrong in our assumptions and that these guys did it in excellent style and are doing their best to steer aid speedclimbing in the right direction by maintaining high regard for protecting the stone.
Continue on, this horse is still kicking.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
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"Ron has the stones to pony up and point this issue out AGAIN for you lame asses who don't give a crap and don't have the skill, desire, or patience to aid climb at a higher level."
What would some examples of aid climbing at a higher level than sending something on the Streaked Wall w/o hauling bivy gear be? Would you mind sharing your own creds on this (since you're calling others out)? I'd be interested in knowing about folks pushing the envelope of clean climbing into the C4+/C5 realm. Breaking new ground while treading as lightly as can be is something that I often find inspiring.
Most of these existing routes yearning to go clean wouldn't 'exist' withoout butt loads of nailing and driling in the first place. The rock doesn't care about your pin scars and with all of the undiscovered routes in Zion, is it really such a crime that the FA experience on such soft stone will always be an ephemeral one?
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:50pm PT
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Ron and Mimi,
Are you two saying that this route should not be climbed at all unless it can be done without the use of pitons?
If you're not saying this, could you please clarify your position for me? When is it ok to nail on this route?
If yes, are you saying that one should never nail on sandstone?
Brad
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Nov 13, 2007 - 08:56pm PT
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Shame that a recent ascent update gets bogged down by this bs. Thanks Ammon, inspiring news. Solo on the SW? Wish I had the cajones...
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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Seems like the only people who will ever see the damage from the hammering will be those who make the effort to go up there and climb it.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
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No, actually Hawkeye is RIGHT! If Ron would have done an FA up on that wall I know for SURE of two things: 1, he would not be bitching about clean placements right now… and 2, the route he would have put up would be a trade route by now, ie: doing decades of damage to try and “create” a clean placement… maybe he didn’t have the “stones” to climb that wall, huh?
How can we all respect guys like Mugs Stump, Conrad Anker and Paul Gagner for doing first ascents up there but we can’t respect those who follow?
And YOU of all people Ron, give me a f*#king break… you just keep showing us what a hypocrite you are.
Why not start your own thread and leave this one to those of us who find these ascents inspiring?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
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Well that's just it Atch, its a question of values.
Those that worship numbers over ethics hold A5 in high esteem and care not for the consequences.
I would be willing to see the ratings drop a bit if it meant the route could go clean and be more durable. Its an acceptable compromise to me.
Besides, subsequent ascents of routes are generally easier anyway. Certainly psychologically.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2007 - 09:16pm PT
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Numbers?
We all seek the same thing Ron. The experience!
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:19pm PT
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Melissa, for someone supposedly so intelligent...
Your last two comments are unbelievable to me. I'll let Ron handle those if he wants to repeat himself for the umpteenth time.
No bivy gear? What about a rap line? I assume they checked the weather before blasting. And with all the beaks they're likely carrying, how could they possibly fail? My creds really don't matter; let's just say my climbing experiences in the US and Europe since 1976 (beyond the gym) provide me with the knowledge to feel comfortable enough to comment.
Since you define yourself as a gym climber, I assume you likely haven't climbed much outdoors, much less a wall, or on soft rock in the desert, so it's no surprise that you'd take this stance. The fact that you can't separate selfish intent and rock damage from the consequences is unfortunate. "...I often find inspiring"? Try harder.
The main reason that we aren't aware of folks pushing the clean envelope is that they aren't always out spraying about it. I've met guys in the last 10 years where that's all they do and they're as bad ass as they get. But hardly anyone knows who they are and they like it that way. They have nothing to prove.
I haven't done a wall in Zion but I respect the opinions of my friends who climb there all the time. It is a serious position to take that some routes should not be climbed at all anymore with pitons or not. Nuts in soft rock are also damaging. One of the main issues with Zion is that the land managers will eventually shut climbing down due to rock damage. But these sprayers could care less. Get em while you can! Climbers aren't the only people who impact the park, but we are definitely a group that has a highly visible impact to non-climbers from the ground. Previous threads have provided several descriptions of this visible damage.
Mick, that's not really the point though is it?
Hey Ammon, hope all is well. The fact that guys have done these routes earlier does not support maintaining the status quo. I still can't understand why you are so resistant to upping the bar.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:23pm PT
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Well Ammon, you cross posted me. You seek the experience for yourself with little concern for the consequence.
I wonder if you know the wall's full history.
Back in the '70s when my ethics allowed for nailing I actually did stuff harder than C2. Try soloing Archangel there sport, or check out Canary Pass (oh well, too late on that one, but remember what Jim Dunn said after the NA "not as hard as Canary Pass"). Even did rurps and blade tips on the 7th of the Shield.
I checked out the Streaked, even talked with KT who had done the first pitch above the Rubicon. For a while I even had the highpoint on the rock when I went for a recon.
Bottom line; I figured that the white rock at the top wouldn't hold a route of ANY type to last.
(Could be we'll yet see on that).
But one thing I would NOT have done is jump another party's ropes all the way to the Rubicon, then traverse and toprope an independent start just to create a separate line and beat the other party to the FA of the wall,... as one of the people you held up for esteem DID.
Ahem,.. cough.
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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No bivy gear? What about a rap line? I assume they checked the weather before blasting. And with all the beaks they're likely carrying, how could they possibly fail?
No offense, grandma, but you haven't a f*#king clue about the Streaked Wall.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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Thanks for the input, yo. The fact that it's the Streaked Wall is not important. I guess you're too young and stupid to know any better, eh?
Gear Edit: Or are you saying that it has no thin cracks that would require beaks?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:46pm PT
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"Since you define yourself as a gym climber, I assume you likely haven't climbed much outdoors"
You got it. I just come here for the pissy banter.
Off for the gym. I need to look good when I'm posing in the desert next week.
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crackfiend
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 09:58pm PT
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Hey Ammon yer boy is about 3 pitches off Rubicon as of this afternoon. Was in the canyon today spotting him with bino's. Looking pretty smooth so far. I know it is nothing compared to tom's post's but thought I would give Zion some climbing update love.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:01pm PT
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Way to go, Mel, avoid the issue. Don't pull too hard on the plastic tonight. And have a splendid time feeling some real rock in the desert.
yo, get off your criticism of age. Time waits for no one, punk.
So the route's real steep. Big deal. That supports the assumption that they likely had every gadget under the sun (and an extra hammer) to make sure they wouldn't fail.
I'm sure they had an exciting and awe-inspiring time up there and it's great that they are safely down. Can't wait to read the TR and see the pics if they had time to take any.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:07pm PT
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Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Aid climbers arguing .......
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:09pm PT
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Honestly, mimi...when you make all of these assumptions about bad style being used on a route you've never heard of by people you've never heard of in a place you've never climbed and go so far as to call the climbers "Lame Asses", arguing about it w/ you doesn't make much more sense than arguing about it with the dude that talks to himself on the corner near my house.
If you can't see the hypocrasy in takign pride in a hammerless ascent of a bolt ladder, I won't be able to explain it to you.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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Cool, Mel, so you have climbed outside. And I've climbed in Zion. Like I stated above, I'd really, really, really think it was awesome if Ammon reported that they climbed this wall and any others during their trip without unnecessary nailing. However, Ammon continues to support an indifferent attitude toward this goal. Hence, the discussion.
Thought you were headed to the gym?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:14pm PT
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Waiting for my bf to get home.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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Mel, since you're still here. Don't know where you got clipping a bolt ladder being a worthy alternative to represent clean aid from my statements.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:28pm PT
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I love how the previous generation beat the living shite out of walls everywhere and now gripes about some guys tapping in some beaks here and there. It's a boomer affliction- live large and then expect the youngsters to tighten their belts. Do as a say, not as I did.
Good job on the SW! It's an inspiring piece of rock.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 10:46pm PT
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Well I acknowledge the potential hypocrasy but there is a learning curve that can now be bypassed.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:31pm PT
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Kudos to anyone that ascends the Streaked wall in any fashion. Ascending that wall with or without pins is bad ass.
With all due respect Piton Ron I am curious what the original hole count was for the 3rd pitch on the Dorn direct. Granted I did climb it in 92 or 93 (15 years after the 1st ascent)but it seemed a little heavy on the drill in my opinion. All the hooking was drilled and there was no shortage of rivits. Is this pitch considered excesive hammering in your opinion or didn't it matter because you got to do it first? It was only 2 years later those guys put up Jolly Rodger, where their standards still seem to be measured up too today.
We are arguing over pin scars on the streaked wall hahaha LOL, what a joke. How is that super highway of a trail doing on top of Angels landing? I wonder how long it will take for the urban sprawl happening in Las Vegas to reach the St George area?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:43pm PT
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T2,
third pitch was the crux; off the top of my head about 6 quarter inch bolts, no rivets, and definitely NO drilled hooks (but plenty of hooking).
Again, that was mid seventies, still behind the curve (Friends weren't even out yet).
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Nov 13, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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I've stuck my neck out doing clean aid in the Fishers, Canyonlands, and other mungy rock in the desert. I've taken a few big falls too, and one where I broke three ribs and finished the route. I've placed almost no pins in the desert on a lot of routes, including new routes. There is no way in hell I would go up the Streaked Wall without a hammer and everything in the arsenal. Do people talk sh#t about climbers doing something like the Reticent with a hammer too?
Nice work on the Streaked Wall guys. That is as proud as it gets.
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:00am PT
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No, Andy you're right. However, if something's gone clean, then it should stay clean, IMHO. A nailing route is a nailing route but every effort should be made to not nail if there are other options as the route evolves (unfortunately). That's all I was getting at and the subject of clean climbing is an ongoing discussion with Ammon. A sore subject. Some people are very concerned about impact and rightly so. Like I said, I'm sure the guys had a heck of a time and good for them. It would be nice to read about their adventure.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:10am PT
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To my knowledge, no one has ever done anything clean on the Streaked Wall, and its probably going to take a shitload of bolts or chiseled nut placements for anything to be done clean there.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:18am PT
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sick. that wall is just plain sick...good on em, and that push sounds like a mighty effort...
(long post on other subject snipped...wouldn't mind a separate thread to discuss the issue, as i have a few questions on both sides of the fence...)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Nov 14, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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Ammon thanks for the updates! Zion doesn't get enough love around here. Nice to see it getting some attention.
Like T2 said, any ascent of the Streaked Wall is a proud one. Good lord, the approach to the base alone takes a solid set of balls. Props to those guys. Especially doing it in a push like that.
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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Proud send, no matter what the others might say. I believe this is streaked wall route #2 for Matt.
Watch out, the N.P. Service will all get micrometers to see how much the crack expands after each ascent so they can ban climbing.
They are much more concerned about that than erosion due to people walking off trail and littering.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 14, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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mimi said"Blindeye has already made up his mind about unnecessary nailing. He's a boy of manifest destiny. You really show your colors with your comment to Ron, but no surprise. "
mimi, apparently you have not had the pleasure of following in ron offenski's tracks. you might want to do that b4 you think you are on the same side as him.
carving holds on a wall to dumb it down to his level of free climbing....
cerberus was climbed hammerless by him after at least what about 8 times where he used the hammer to "carve" nut placements into the soft stone so that he could then tout his "hammerless" position.
thanks for the thread ammon that is a cool wall and those are proud sends!
i am all for minimizing impacts but find "offenskys" position tiresome...
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GoBig
Big Wall climber
beakland
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Nov 14, 2007 - 09:52pm PT
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 14, 2007 - 10:27pm PT
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Remarkable how boldly anonymous posters will twist rumors to fit their purposes.
It would be nice if we could trust subsequent parties to only use the same scars in a way that encourages the evolution of nut placements, but experience shows otherwise.
When everyone is the author then there IS no author, and gravity eases downward blows more than upward. By the time the second jugs (especially on "speed" ascents) he just wants to get the pin out fast.
The result is, unfortunately, predictable.
Part of me wants to be around to tell the mallet-heads "I told you so", but part of me wants to see a less myopic ethic evolve with climbers willing to compromise in order to prolong the viability of what I've come to understand are very fragile climbs.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 02:28am PT
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By the time the second jugs (especially on "speed" ascents) he just wants to get the pin out fast.
The result is, unfortunately, predictable.”
Ron, it’s obvious you have no idea what you’re talking about regarding speed ascents. I (and my partners) climb and clean EXACTLY the same way I would if I was spending multiple days on the route. The only difference is we’re not wasting time at the belays because we’re short-fixing and not hauling all that crap.
In reality, it doesn’t really slow the team down while cleaning (so, it doesn’t really matter how fast you arrive at the belay) because the leader is making progress while short-fixing, especially on the harder aid routes.
We’re not cleaning all that fast and spend a lot of time doing the best job we can, both removing the gear and also re-racking in an orderly fashion. In the long run it saves time to climb/clean smoothly and be organized.
So, you can generalize and make ASSumptions all you want about how “we” are being sloppy about cleaning pins while doing routes in a push, but unless you step up, try it yourself and figure out what we are really doing up there… I will continue to try and educate people that it is LESS impact climbing in this style.
It’s my opinion that your fragile little ego is somehow affected regarding “speed climbers”. You have no clue about “us” climbing in this style, so your opinion carries NO weight, for me.
Edit: BTW, Hawkeye is not anonymous and yes, you are a known "placement creator", Aka: "chiseler". Quit trying to re-write history!
Another Edit: Please start your own thread if you want to discuss this, like I suggested before.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 03:31am PT
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Nov 15, 2007 - 08:21am PT
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In response to your response to my comment on page 1...(whew)
I don't know if it came across that way, but I didn't mean to have a tone of "too bad, the route is there, end of story." I think it's pretty obvious that if a wall is falling down around our ears it might be best to leave it be. No one in their right mind would be ok with damaging a limited resource. It sounds like you are right in terms of it not being a B/W issue and the need for compromise.
Like I mentioned above, I don't know a lot about the condition of the rock on the streaked wall, past ascents and local ethics and I don't want to make uninformed posts. I just wanted to congradulate the climbers who evidently got up some hard routes. The ethics here are for more informed heads than mine.
Cheers
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FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Nov 15, 2007 - 09:35am PT
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big props to anyone sending the streaked. Proud as hell regardless.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 09:48am PT
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PR, "Remarkable how boldly anonymous posters will twist rumors to fit their purposes."
ron, unfortunately you are now twisting reality. tell everyone here how you drilled pockets in sandstone to dumb down a free route in order to bring it down to your level in snow canyon. tell everyone here how you carved out nut placements in order to make climbs go clean (cerberus) (constructive scarring or carving the rock which is it?). tell everyone here that you did not put up such "bold visionary" A1 routes like prodigal sun. and now you are bitching cuz folks are using the trails you carved into the rock?
the routes you put up are not even in the same league as SW climbs. i climbed with the guys that did the fa of streaked wall ron, and you aint fit to live in their poop tube. and while i dont know ammon i dont think your fit for his either...
sorry for the thread hijack here and thanks for the pics ammon. now if only ron could go back home to his septic tank.
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Nov 15, 2007 - 10:18am PT
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What are the routes on the streaked wall? How many, grades, etc. I'd like to get more info on it...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 10:27am PT
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So you rerack in an orderly fashion, Ammon. Gee I'm such a nOOb, I'd never have thought of that.
I trust you checked with Conrad to confirm the veracity of my story.
So,.. if you don't like the question just respond to a different one huh?
The only "chisel" I use is a drill, but then so did the pioneer of that route on a third of the anchors in your photo. Pretty 'biners though.
It does no good to point out that constructive scarring uses traditional tools since to you it is "chiselling"
Perhaps you're right though, ..I see the after effects of so many attempts that I tend to make assumptions on a broad scale. I apologize for doing so, it was wrong of me, but my experience with your putting up an ethical front that seems rather threadbare after one looks behind the curtain (need I go into detail?) makes me wonder if you're just blowing more smoke.
Oh, and if H is not anonymous he hides it well.
Yes (gasp!!) I have altered rock deliberately, so does anybody who places a bolt.
But when I do it the intent is to make a route last, not to try to impress everyone with what big numbers I do and then tell anybody that doesn't that they live in a septic tank.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 10:46am PT
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My point about racking is that if we're taking the time to organize as we clean we certainly can take the time cleaning a fragile pin placement.
It’s so ironic that you have probably done more damage on the FA’s in Zion, single handedly, than any other person but now you don’t seem to remember it.
“Constructive scarring”?
Who’s blowing the smoke?
Edit: Conrad or RQ has NOTHING to do with your arguement
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 10:53am PT
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perhaps PR's holier than thou attitude is but a product of his surroundings...who knows and who cares.
going up the streaked wall is a proud send and that is what this thread was supposed to be about. doing it in a push? real proud.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 11:21am PT
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I call it constructive (as opposed to DEstructive) and if others engaged in it, as you say YOU do, then I wouldn't feel obliged to complete the job since others would.
OK, so you say you take great care.
Good on ya.
But truthfully, how many ascents do you think any of the SW routes can bear before they're blown out?
C'mon Ammon, for the record, how many?
H,
maybe my routes are holier than thou's but plenty of other people's routes have as many, or more, holes.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Nov 15, 2007 - 11:34am PT
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With the approach the Streaked Wall has, why does it matter? Its just not ever going to see the traffic that Touchstone has. Seems a good place to let the routes be burly, as a laboratory if nothing else. If a placement gets blown beyond repair, it'll get a bolt or you can chisel out a nut placement then. It'll still never be the eyesore that the haulbag streak on Prodigal Son or Touchstone is.
Any climbing has an impact in the desert. If you don't like it, stop climbing and start kayaking.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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Well the SW isn't likely to get much bag wear, but wear IS cumulative and saying that it doesn't get much traffic is disingenuous.
And just for the record, I don't bemoan the traffic on the trade routes, but rather the effect it has, especially when unneccesary.
edit;
Ammon?
How many?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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I gotta hand it to 'em. I asked the question quite simply way back in the eighth post and have muddled through a series of ad hominem attacks without a hint of an answer.
20?
100?
200?
You see I DO know something about that sugary white rock. Some won't even hold bolts reliably.
So eventually when the beak placements have all become 5" craters and the surrounding rock looks like swiss cheese from bad bolts the route is GONE.
So how many ascents do you think Ammon?
Pretty soon I'm going to start an Ammon for President thread.
Anybody that can persistently dodge such a simple question has a great future in politics. Maybe his secret buddy, the anonymous scatologist Browneye, can run for VP.
(the anonymous scatologist; I like that, must be the iambic quadrameter)
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mbb
climber
the slick
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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Piton,
wasn't it you that chipped/drilled all of those routes in Snow Canyon? Now you are the clean climbing police? WTF? This type of typical "local climber can do what he wants but criticize others" bullshit is so tiresome. Practice what you preach and maybe people will take you seriously.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:38pm PT
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Boys, boys, boys--hammer+steel+rock=DESTRUCTION....period.
Y'all are arguing semantics about the above equation.
Both sides:
Do what you have to do to sleep well at nights, just don't tell anybody what you did. All of us climbers are self-righteous, hypocrits nearly every time we open our mouths to tell of our "endeavors".
Adventure is satiated in the mind--telling about it is critiqueable entertainment.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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mbb,
more misdirection.
Besides, the routes you refer to DO go clean. Repeatedly.
My clean walls in Zion may not be pristine, but they were meant to support countless ascents, not just my own.
No inconsistency in the ethics from my perspective.
(But I know how people tend to "project" their values onto other peoples actions, incorrectly assuming they understand the reasoning.)
But back to the question, Ammon. How many.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:40pm PT
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Here here, mojede. The personal attacks add to the ego involvement. We're ALL destructive...especially making fragile places be more widely known here on the ST.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2007 - 01:56pm PT
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Ron, the answer to your question is the same number as any of your FA routes: countless
The difference is MANY parties will be doing the damage, putting bolts in, making the scars bigger, not just by ONE man doing all the damage at once like you do on your FA’s.
The only argument I am debating is that doing routes in a push is in fact, less impact than spending multiple days on the route. Your arguments seem to be all over the board.
Do what I say not what I do, right Ron?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 01:58pm PT
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PR says i perpetuate rumours...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=150573&msg=151229#msg151229
pr said there,
"I'm not going to go into my Zion drilled pockets, Climb Against Nature, but rather wish to focus on a handful of routes in Snow Canyon State Park as well as discuss the variety of physical impacts climbers perpetrate. "
a rumour or truth that you wish were unknown PR?
climbing is a selfish sport, all the way around.PR would argue that a carved up A1 up the SW is better than the current adventurous lines. and that by his carving he is "better" than those who are out seeking their own adventures.
i dont buy it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Stink,
I stopped publishing a decade and a half ago.
Ammon,
I'll wager that you are WRONG.
Touchstone must've had a thousand ascents. Do you REALLY think that that white rock will support as many?
Browneye,
I said you TWIST rumors (not to mention re-editting quotes. How can I respond to one when you just insert another?)
An example would be say, to say that I suggested carving routes up the SW, but you'd never do THAT would you?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:15pm PT
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i guess your delusions may have their own personal benfits PR. no editing your quotes on my part. no twisting rumours just presenting your own twisted "truth". whatever that appears to be.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
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My bad Browneye,
just got done responding to your quote of mine on the Ammon for Prez thread.
But you haven't responded to my example.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:23pm PT
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I don't care who's doing it, or why. A chiseler is a chiseler. A chipper is a chipper. Period.
It's a pretty self-righteous attitude to condemn others for hammering in a pin here and there while you openly admit to (and deny at the same time. wtf?!) chipping and chiseling the rock to suit your own vision and needs... How is that not the absolute definition of self-righteous and hypocritical? That's probably a question needing more of an answer than badgering someone about how many ascents they think a certain wall/route might see...
Seriously, wtf? I really have to agree with Ammon in that the huge difference between chiseling and chipping the routes into trade routes (read as "into submission") is f*#king cheating a lot of people out of an experience. It's kinda like the lame movies about time machines and cheating time, etc. Just shouldn't be done. If *only* a twisted fate came to those who chip and chisel.
And, riddle me this, Ron... What makes you think that the decades of damage you've done to routes stops because of "constructive scarring"? All you've really done is speed up the demise of the rock/routes and in the process cheated a ton of people out of something. Anyone who's climbed in Zion, or on Wingate, in general, knows it evolves much faster than Granite or other hard rocks. Place a cam, a nut, even use a foothold and the rock is altered. I'm just curious how you possibly think that altering the rock, in anyway, slows this process. I'm not buying it.
Anyhow, you guys hash this out... I'm out to the desert, myself, for the next couple of weeks.
Cheers!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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ron, i dont hink my response would fit with your reality, whatever that is at the moment.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Nov 15, 2007 - 03:20pm PT
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It's sad to see that this forum has deteriorated to this level and that two other forums that have popped up because of it. Why can't people just get along...
Zion is a fragile environment and whatever we do will have lasting consequences for generations to come. I doubt that I ever get up on the streaked wall since A4+ is totally out of my comfort zone, but I'm still interested in the evolution of these climbs and how they will change over time with wear and tear.
Is it a real concern or not? Does the Park service really care? Are we doing the classic, can't see the forest for the tress syndrome...
Could someone please post up some concise information about the routes up there, their history, grades, gear, etc. Thanks.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
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Here's a great photo that Eric Draper took of Matt Erdmann on Tales.
Hope all is smile'n!
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| Messages 1 - 76 of total 76 in this topic |
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