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| Messages 1 - 45 of total 45 in this topic |
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 25, 2007 - 01:14pm PT
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After my wife won a $10,000 shopping spree at a local mall I decided to get some tools at Sears. I bought some Craftsman screwdrivers that are still being made here in the U.S. The diagonal cutters that I purchased for work however were made in China for Craftsman (I noticed afterwards because I assumed the Craftsman name was still worth something). Well, I thought I'd keep 'em and give a try. Today at work I'm cutting through a piece of prototyping board (thin fiberglass) and the piece of sh#t cutters sheared completely through the metal. GAaaaa!!!
Just one more reason to not buy crap made in China. I went next door and bought a pair of Xcelite cutters made by CooperTools in Apex, North Carolina. Sure, they cosy a bit more BUT THEY F*CKING WORK AND WILL PROBABLY CONTINUE TO WORK FOREVER!!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 25, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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For a long time, we have all been buying discount stuff made in China because it is cheap. Well, now we are beginning to understand the tradeoffs. I'm certainly giving it more thought these days.
BTW, for those Regulation-haters out there, look at what 0 environmental regs have done for China's environment, allowing manufacturers and ordinary folks to pollute practically everything from air and water to toys and dishes.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Oct 25, 2007 - 01:30pm PT
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The parent company of Craftsman is Danaher. Danaher just announced they are buying my present employer. Weeeeeee!!!!
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John Moosie
climber
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Oct 25, 2007 - 01:30pm PT
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But dirtbag, Capitolism works as the regulator. Eventually, the people buying the stuff that causes the pollution will see the polution, attribute it to the people making the crap and they will see that they don't want pollution and then they will stop buying the crap.
The people who make the crap and are doing the polluting will lose thier market and adjust by making less pollution.
Of course, by then, everything is polluted.
Dang........Why can't capitolism be perfect?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 25, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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It's always something, isn't it Moosie?
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John Moosie
climber
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Oct 25, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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Yep......until one wakes up and realizes that problems created from one level of consciousness can't be solved with the same level of consciousness.
Capitolism can't solve the problems of capitolism.
Greed can't solve the problems of greed.
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 25, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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Greed can be a productive motivator, but unrestrained greed can lead to big problems.
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mcKbill
climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Oct 25, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
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Experiences vary:
I have some Craftsman and Stanley tools with the 'made in China' stamp, and I was leery at first, but found these tools hold up just as well as their American made cousins.
Craftsman tool guarantee:
I hope 'made in China' makes no difference with respect to the Craftsman tool return guarantee (if it breaks they'll replace it).
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Oct 25, 2007 - 04:44pm PT
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how the hell did they put a man in space...
and get him back?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 25, 2007 - 09:59pm PT
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Rokjox - I hate to admit it, but when I was a handbag designer, working with a chinese sampleroom, I used tell people that I often felt they were playing a game with us called "Foil the Westerner!"
The object of the game was to create the illusion of competence, willingness and ability to follow instruction as provided by said westerner, maintain the charade for as long a period as possible, but ultimately not come through with whatever project was agreed upon.
Detailed note taking? a scam
Promised Send date? This too shall pass
etc., etc....
I LOVED being a participant in Foil the Westerner though, and learned how to persevere. The key was to follow up on every detail, and not just accept the nodding "yes" head. But along with that, you had to pull your own weight on each item that was your responsibility, and also had to have reasonable requests and expectations. But it was funny to watch newb salesmen or designers foiled over and over. Like taking candy from a baby.
(I was also told that in India, the nodding "yes" actually mean they could not do whatever it was that you wanted, but most westerners were unaware of that nuance. Don't know if that is fact or fiction).
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Oct 25, 2007 - 11:50pm PT
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been there, done that - first construction job ever, went to the flea market and bought a bunch of cheap tools and some older used made in america ones - estwing hammer, klein cutters...guess which tools are long since gone, and which ones are still on the belt ;-)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oct 26, 2007 - 12:28am PT
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I had a CPOSC (cheap piece of sh!t Chinese) crescent wrench, and I tried to take a nut off a clipper with it. The nut was frozen. I was a little stronger back then, and I managed to CUT into the crescent wrench steel with the steel nut, leaving a big gouge in the jaws of the CPOSC crescent wrench.
I was not the only thing ill-tempered that day.
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Chugach
Trad climber
Dorset, VT
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Oct 26, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
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Here's the difference... Japanese manufacturers made crap product for years and were labeled as such and changed and now we all line up to buy their superior product. The Chinese are very astute, smart and motivated. They will figure out the quality game. Japan has some cultural advantages (imho) but the Chinese are master emulators.
SO, while we Americans may not like Chinese tools - the products we make are still inferior and languishing and will eventually be surpassed by Chinese quality. Ugh, it hurts to say that. As background, I have spent my life in manufacturing and have worked with and in factories throughout 4 continents.
Bitch or solve. Those damn Chinese don't spend much time bitching.
Jeff
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oct 26, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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Show me a chinese machine tool that can compare to brown & sharp or sterret.
Yeah it'll happen one day, but not now, and not next year.
The Chinese definitely have the potential to make nice high quality stuff, and when they do start in on that, the west is in big trouble.
100 years from now, it will be India and China on top, and the US and Europe will be third world countries.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:38pm PT
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Damn Chinese can't make anything....
Battens in sails
Blast furnace
Cast iron
Chinese cuisine: Tofu, Ramen, Sushi
Chinese clothing: Qipao, Hanfu
Chopsticks
Crank, hand-operated
Repeating crossbow
Escapement mechanism for clocks
Exploding cannonball
Fire Arrow
Gunpowder
Firearm
Horse collar
Hull compartments/bulkheads
Kite
Land mines
Lottery
Naval mines
Noodles
Paper
Pendulum (Zhang Heng)
Printing (woodblock printing and movable type)
Rockets: Fire Arrow, Multistage rocket
Rudder
Sailing carriage
Seismometer (of Zhang Heng)
Silk
South Pointing Chariot (differential gear, of Ma Jun)
Sluice gates
Toilet paper
Traditional Chinese medicine
Trebuchet (traction)
Trip hammer
Winnowing machine
Abacus (first appearance: Mesopotamia, 2400 BC. First certain appearance in China: 12th century AD)
Armillary sphere (invented by the Greek Eratosthenes), with the world's first water-powered armillary sphere by Zhang Heng.
Various automata (refer to article on King Mu of Zhou, Mozi, Lu Ban, etc.)
Bellows
Belt drive
Bituminous coke for the iron and steel industry
Compass
Camera obscura
Cardan Suspension
The cannon
Chain drive
Chain pumps
Chinese calendar
Crossbow
Drydock
The Flamethrower
Flash lock
Early explosive grenades
Odometer (also by Archimedes and Heron of Alexandria)
Paddle wheel, for boats
Paper money
Parachutes
Pontoon bridge
Porcelain
Postal system
Pound lock
Scissors
Steel
Suspension bridge
Star catalogue
Tea
Umbrella
Vaccination
Water clock
Waterwheel (also of the Greco-Roman tradition)
Wheelbarrow
Windmill
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Chugach
Trad climber
Dorset, VT
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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and...The world's first Suspension Bridge was built around 2,500 BC.
Hold on, what about Chinese Checkers and Chinese Water Torture?
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Gene
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
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You guys don't know sh#t about China and the Chinese.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2007 - 04:47pm PT
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Care to explain, Gene?
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:47pm PT
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Maybe not, but we do know about some sh#t about the cheap sh#t being mass produced and sent over here.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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They started that gunpowder stuff...now take a look.
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John Moosie
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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Bacher, There is a difference between invention and production. No one said the chinese can't invent things. They just aren't bothering to make quality wares because Americans buy the crap by the boatload at Trashmart.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:15pm PT
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RE:
" They just aren't bothering to make quality wares"
ultra high quality isn't mass-market, never has been but Gucci (suits) and DKNY (jackets) are made in China (and of course other places in Asia as well)
"because Americans buy the crap "
right, so maybe it's not the fault of the Chinese.
crappy products can come from anywhere, even right here in the glorious USA...
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John Moosie
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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You are right Raydog, I misspoke. China will make crap as long as Americans are willing to buy it.
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Gene
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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Care to explain? Yeah.
Chinese manufacturers don’t stock the shelves at US retailers. They make stuff that outside companies contract with them to make. The Chinese build it to the specs provided by the buyers. Basic, huh? I don’t think there are many factories in China doing spec manufacturing of pipe wrenches with Craftsman labels for sale at Sears or OSH. What is produced overseas doesn’t get on the boat if it has not been inspected or otherwise certified as meeting buyer specs by the buyer or an independent third party. The check isn’t cut until the boat is ready to leave port. That’s how it works.
So, the POS that you buy is what your friendly, local, big box conglomerate thinks you want. The quality they think you want at the price you will pay. Your beef isn’t with the Chinese, it’s with your retailer.
The best computer I’ve bought was a ThinkPad built by Lenovo. Which country dominates flat panel TVs?
“Every time a Chinaman sees a corner, he wants to cut it.” Bullshit on several levels.
You buy crap from Sears and blame the guy who made it the way Sears told him to? Ready, fire, aim.
GM
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:37pm PT
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RE:
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You buy crap from Sears and blame the guy who made it the way Sears told him to?"
this is exactly right
US brands will push their Asian sources to the absolute limit, and beyond.
Wanna TNF tent knocked off for $17.95?
I know of a plant that can do it, but the end product will have maybe 4-6 stitches per inch, old thread, cheesy fabric etc, but it will absolutely hit the price target as specified.
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
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and the shareholders here are smiling all the way to the bank
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2007 - 05:49pm PT
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Gene and Raydog, those are excellent points. I'll probably still buy Craftsman tools at Sears, but I'll just buy ones that are made here, it's easy enough to read where it was made. I've just had too many bad experiences with crap made over there.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Oct 26, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
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we've started to see some Chinese curtainwall products enter my business. these projects have not gone well, we've decided as a firm to steer clear, but we hear everything through the jungle drums.
allot of the GC's and developers just see the $$$'s. common really, if you order the exterior skin of your godamn skyscraper from china, what did you expect?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:00pm PT
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Most of you are probably too young to remember how we went through the same cycle with Japan after the war: lots of cheap, poor quality stuff until they got their house in Order.
Personally, I'm studying Confucius and Mandarin. Since both my kids are Asian I'll be "qualitatively" accepted. My daughter, Tia, has said that she'll probably put in a good word for me if I let up on insisting she lead. " A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:08pm PT
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Gene and Raydog hit it on the nailhead.
Chinese factories make what the manufacturer tells them to. They themselves do not have a large enough consumer base demanding their own high end products so it isn't profitable to manufacture high end stuff...yet.
There are companies now that are just now turning to Chinese manufacturers to make high end stuff. Soon things will change.
If you take the smartest 20% of the Chinese population, that's 260 million people. That's a lot of brain power. It's just a matter of time when the junky stuff will be made in the USA and the Chinese stuff will be the shiznit.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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I guess I'd like to point out here that Honda now has a great number of it's cars manufactured in China. Guess what? The Chinese manufactured Accord rates higher than the Japanese manufactured Accord. A great number of the highest consumer rated cars are now made in China.
Basically, see what Gene says above.
Why do you think the U.S. has kept Chinese cars out of our economy for so long? Not because they're crap. Not because they can't pass safety tests/regs, or any of the other BS that the government hands you... Better and cheaper (significantly cheaper) That's how they are making things now, in comparison to "Made in the USA".
One thing's for certain, we better get our sh#t together soon. Regardless of any of this crap, China is the sleeping Giant that will run the world soon.
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:37pm PT
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Um....I just received a set of five new BD C4 Camalots.
All made in China.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:51pm PT
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I'd like us to establish a relationship with China that might evolve into an economic and security coalition sometime in the future. China will, in my opinion, settle in as a Confucian/capitalist society in time - a giant Singapore.
Working together instead of competing would establish a combined power that could really maintain world stability. This is the only way we might avoid the pitfalls of the past that have resulted in major conflict. Mind you, this is a hope.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Oct 26, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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"Ready, FIRE, aim." -Gene.
A habit for many of us Americans, since... how long?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 07:42pm PT
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RE:
"I'll probably still buy Craftsman tools at Sears"
hypothetically it isn't hard to imagine an entity like Sears putting pressure on Asian sources to meet a certain price, and the source cutting certain (QC) corners to get the job done. Sears, feeling that they may need to play a price game w/ other brands when in fact it may be their brand identity and/or customer service that are the problems limiting (perhaps unrealistic) sales goals.
I'm not trying to slam Sears, it seems rare that any brand can see itself objectively, and self-critique accordingly, all the time.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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Have a look at anything written by Joseph Needham, the very distinguished historian. His 15 volume book, "Science and Civilization in China", and institute of the same name, are very well known for their thoroughness and accuracy.
http://www.nri.org.uk/science.html
He is no apologist for China, nor a chauvinist when it comes to Chinese history. China was not the first place with agriculture, was not the first place to be civilized (as we usually define it), and did not invent many things. But it still did a very great deal.
China has had a setback over the last few centuries. But any sane outside observer looking at the scene in say 1421, would have put money on a Chinese/oriental dominated world, not a European.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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yeah, plus...
I once hung out in this bar/resteraunt in China w/ these two Chinese cats from a factory i was visiting. They ordered the rounds as we dined on some killer lean beef strips and fried veggies, doing shots of Saki, tossing back beers, then several shots of whiskey (they MADE me do it!). I strolled out of the place singing, clear headed but completely plastered. No hangover either. Those cats were cool (the Saki didn't count, they told me) that was a fun night.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Must have been *really* drunk, Ray... As far as I know, Saki (sake) is a Japanese drink, not Chinese... =)
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
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nope it was Sake (Saki?)
yeah, and they have sushui there too, dude
there is also a McDonalds in Yangzhou (sp?)
way the heck out in northern china...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:13pm PT
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I know, Ray. Just teasin' ya.
I find it ironic, however, that they have that stuff there, with the ill feelings between the two countries. I guess the stomach is a bit less discriminating, when it comes to good food and drink, eh?
Have a good weekend, Ray!
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mcKbill
climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:19pm PT
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The truth is that some of these tools made in China are just as good as made in the USA. Sure, I've bought junk Chinese made tools from Kmart and had them fail on first use. That's when I started buying only good tools: Craftsman, Stanley, etc...
About 3 years ago, while admiring one of my favorite tools, I noticed that it had the 'CHINA' brand on it. It was a Crafsman tool!!! I've abused this set of plyers, but can still count on it to help me do precision work. I'm convinced NOT ALL CHINESE TOOLS ARE BAD.
Now, Sears has been owned by K-mart since 2005. I'm more concerned about how THAT will affect the quality of the Craftsman brand vs. Sears' out-sourcing some of their manufacturing to China. Hmmmm...maybe I should be careful with my next purchase if the Kmart inspectors were out their making the final check on stuff to be sold in the USA.
On another note, I think the 'Chinaman' references in this thread are repulsive. I'm not Chinese, and I don't have any close friends who are, but I would think a term like that is hurtful. Why would any Taco go there? Chinaman? Americaman? Whatever. I'm just saying, it's repulsive. There.
--mcKbill
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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RE:
"I guess the stomach is a bit less discriminating"
it IS ironic...
climb safe,
Ray
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 26, 2007 - 08:55pm PT
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Craftsman pliers and screwdrivers were crap clear back in the early 70's way before anything was made in China.(socket sets were good though)
I did my electrical apprenticeship back then and my first set of tools were Craftsman. Within a year or two all were replaced with Klien or other brands with an exception.
I always kept a pair of dikes, (diagonal cutters)and long nose pliers with beefed up handle insulation for hot work. Every couple of years I'd screw up, blow them up and take them back for a free new pair.
The look on the clerks face when you bring back a pair of pliers with the end melted off for a free replacement is priceless.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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Craftsman, Stanley tools are good?
Not me, I don't buy Craftsman or Stanley.
But Klein are OK, and snap-on, SK, mac are way better than any Craftsman.
Craftsman .... yelch
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