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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 9, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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Name climbing areas in North American where you consider the ratings to be sandbagged. (sandbag refers to ratings that are lower than reality. i.e. a 5.9 climb that is rated 5.7)
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lucho
Gym climber
San Franpsycho
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Jailhouse
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Devils Lake!
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TradIsGood
Half fast climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Name the benchmark area.
Until you know what the base is, you can't know which are hard or soft.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"Sandbagged Areas" - The Netherlands. New Orleans. Most of the Mississippi River's banks. Not much climbing at any of them.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Isn't the benchmark for YDS Yosemite?
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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LOL!
go figure huh.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Index near Seattle is stiff compared to the valley
Squamish is soft compared to the valley
Arch Rock is stiff compared to the valley...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Assume Reeds Direct, second pitch is the standard for 5.9.
we can sub in other benchmarks later
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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I know I felt pretty humbled at vedauwoo...
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bwancy1
Trad climber
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Isn't the benchmark for YDS Yosemite?
Actually, the benchmark for YDS is Tahquitz.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Granite Mt., AZ. Do a 5.9+ at your own risk.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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At your own risk?
Have you done a GM 5.9+ that didn't have pretty good pro?
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Vedauwoo isn't sandbagged. Its just really hard to climb there...
Seneca is the most sandbagged place I've climbed.
Red Rocks is the softest.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Most any Jtree 5.7...
One of my favorite route names: "A Jtree 5.4" rated 5.7
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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I did a 5.9 offwidth that had been named "Vedauwoo 5.7"
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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no way moof. Josh is on the money most of the time. But if one isn't used to the friction, that can make it feel harder sometimes.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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The second pitch of reed's is 5.7ish, if that's your benchmark for 5.9 goodluck.
Donner has a high percentage of routes put up by the "Hardman" et al that are a little stiff for there grade( not everything). That 5.7 on the front of snowshed is stiff and Papa Bear on Goldilocks is way interesting .11b ( It would be 11d or 12a by modern sporto ratings). On the other hand that .10d on snowshed next to decompusure or whatever is kinda soft even if you manage to stay out of the corner and Peters on the front is more of a continous .10cish than an .11 but I've never climbed it on Hexes.
Anything rated by S.Roper usually had a solid 2 points one way or the other ( maybe not Travelers, that offwidth is good .9 by my standards but I sure ain't no JBRO on that size.)
Ratings are subjective and on any day who knows, I personally hate those heavy gravity days when 5.9 seems like hard .11, oh well that's life........
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Good point Bwancy. I'm curious though, why didn't the socal guys call it TDS? Or was the system not named YDS until it got there in the 60s?
pc
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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The Needles of South Dakota - you better be climbing two number grades harder than the routes you do there.
Agreed with Joshua Tree too.
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Rocky5000
Trad climber
Falls Church, VA
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Seneca always feels stiff because most of it is so vertical, and of course there is the very common falling rock, wasps, briars and whatnot. The only non-ice place I've actually wanted a helmet. (Still haven't used one, though.)
At Carderock the traditional top end of the scale was always 5.10, and many were the moans and protests from the visiting hardmen on routes now conceded to be considerably harder.
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Salamanizer
Mountain climber
Vacaville Ca,
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If you ask around, you'll find that "everywhere" is sandbagged John...
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scuffy b
climber
The deck above the 5
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The second pitch of Reed's is 5.7ish...
So it ought to be a good climb for a 5.8 leader?
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Granite Mountain is the ONLY truly sandbagged area I've ever climbed at.
The real issue is all the FEATHERBAGGED areas. Thats where the perception of sandbagging comes from, usually.
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The Doctor
Social climber
Da Bronx
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Any area that was climbed at when the top of the scale was 5.9 or 5.10. For example The Gunks, Granite Mountain, Devils Lake WI
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rick d
Social climber
tucson, az
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having learned to climb at Carderock, and done 3 summers at Seneca, AND having done 50+% of the routes at Granite Mountain-
the hardest climbing is at the reef.
intimidating red wall and the site of 2 deaths and numerous accidents
agent orange, terrifying 600' exposure- on the second pitch of the wall
cheap shot, I could not figure out how to do this
ways, where the hell is the R there Steiger
cream of belay, obvious
shanashee, 7-8 5.9 moves as you move out off bolt #2, with the crux splashed in
treebeard, "stemming on hollow flakes the size of volkswagons"-J Waugh
snow arch, the bonzai tree
honorable mention:
face routes at Pinnacle Peak- if your not used to it they suck.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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'The Needles of South Dakota - you better be climbing two number grades harder than the routes you do there.'
Naw, there just a little run out at times.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The ratings at Granite Mountain seemed pretty stiff the one time I was there. I don't think the people who did the first ascents of those routes had done much besides first ascents so they had to guess at ratings and just played it conservatively.
Underrating doesn't mean this group is better than that group. It means an area has a tendency to rate things with little precision or accuracy relative to accepted norms. Or, in the case of Joshua and others, you just knock a point of letter off the actual grade just for good measure. Double Cross at 5.7, Leader's Fright at 5.8, and Waterchute at 5.9 are all examples of old time "stiff" ratings.
JL
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jstan
climber
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After forty years I have finally figured out why we keep arguing this. It is because it is a little more fun than all the other old arguments.
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clustiere
Trad climber
Rock Ridge/ Oakland CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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Granite Mtn AZ
Gunks- NY
Adirondacks- NY
Seneca ??
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:36am PT
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Some places, like, Granite mtn, have high standards on some routes.
some places like Devil's Lake are truley sandbagged ( "naive, or ignorant on the bird scale™)
other places are idiosyncratic;
Rifle,
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"Vedauwoo isn't sandbagged. Its just really hard to climb there..."
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:40am PT
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Most areas stop feeling sandbagged after you climb there for awhile- like Jailhouse Lucho. That being said, I sure did like to complain about stiff grades when I was barely eeking my way up 5.9 in Index.
There's the classic article that Bridwell wrote where he introduced the YDS. "Innocent, Ignorant, and Insecure" describes the three reasons for sandbagged grades. Good article.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 02:48am PT
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"The second pitch of Reed's is 5.7ish...
So it ought to be a good climb for a 5.8 leader? "
Maybe a leader you are out to hurt... If you stick a 5.7 leader on Reed's, you're asking for trouble.
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Misha
Trad climber
Woodside, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 03:57am PT
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Eastern Sierra Class 4 routes put up between 1920s and 1940s.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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Oct 10, 2007 - 04:46am PT
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Ragged Mt, CT
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cowpoke
climber
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Oct 10, 2007 - 08:28am PT
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I've always thought of "sandbagging" as a purposeful attempt at deceptively undergrading (something about the intentions of the first ascent party). On the other hand, "hard for the grade" implies something about the rock rather than the first ascent party.
By these standards, I've never been to an entire area that is sandbagged (as someone else mentioned, for example, Vedauwoo climbs are, on average, hard for the grade but I've never felt sandbagged there). That said, I've wondered about first ascent party motives when a climb feels dramatically undergraded for the area, although "wondering" about motives and knowing are pretty different.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Oct 10, 2007 - 10:25am PT
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Rock routes in Alberta used to be quite undergraded. The people putting up 5.9's in the 70's would go to Yosemite and procede to climb 5.10. Gradings have been fixed now for the most part.
A couple of years ago one of the 70's local hard men failed on a route he put up in 1975 and graded 5.7. Talk about sandbagging yourself!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Oct 10, 2007 - 10:42am PT
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I hear the levees in New Orleans were quite heavily sand bagged.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across town from Easy Street
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Oct 10, 2007 - 11:40am PT
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Second on Index, WA.
That dome stuff in North Carolina (Whitesides,Looking Glass etc) is pretty rough for the grades.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 10, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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Mt. Woodson... I've been leading 5.12 trad this summer, and last time I tried Hear My Train a Comin (11c) it shut me down completely. I did it a long time ago, but it tore a muscle in my shoulder and I was out for about 2 months.
Reeds is not the standard for 5.9. The Open Book at Tahquitz is, literally, the definition of 5.9.
Josh
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio for Yr)
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Oct 10, 2007 - 11:53am PT
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Sandbagged is always hard to pin down because there are areas where runnout or "different style" climbing gets lumped into the grade more than it should. I think generally, offwidths ANYWHERE are sandbagged, even when you know what you're doing. I think knowing the techniques knocks them down to reasonable sandbag as opposed to laughable under-grading.
I learned in the gunks and agree with their sandbag-edness BELOW 5.10. Above, that I think the playing field starts to level out some. For instance, I thought Double-issima was spot on for the grade but Modern Times (8+) is THE classic gunks sandbag.
Hands down INDEX, WA is the sandbag capitol. I've done mid 11 trad at Cathedral Ledge onsight but still get worked on 10s at index and am damn proud of any 11 I've done there. I truly believe if you can comfortable lead index 11 you can lead 11 anywhere and probably into the low 12s with
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ryanb
climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 12:09pm PT
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Index, WA is defiantly the hardest-for-the-grade area I have climbed at. It also unique amongst the areas listed in that the vast majority of the climbs are 5.10 or harder with most seeming to be 5.11b or 5.11d.
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phile
Trad climber
SF, CA
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Oct 10, 2007 - 12:31pm PT
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I found Birdcage at the Gunks to be harder than any 5.9 I've done in CA, where I normally climb. I wondered if the ratings were stiffer there than yose or I just wasn't clicking with the route--maybe it was both.
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Oct 10, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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Birdcage is a 10a/b (the corner section might be 5.9, but the traverse right before the roof exit is the business). Birdland is a 5.8+.
Having learned to climb at the Gunks, i remember my first trip to IC I thought everything was easy for the grade, the fact that you could pretty much stand at the bottom of a climb and know almost exactly the gear you were going to need it just make everything so much easier. At the time the hardest pich I had ever lead at the Gunks was a 5.8, and my first lead at the Creek was a 5.9+ (i'm talking on-sight here).
I guess grades are only as good as the standard for a specific area, IMHO.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across town from Easy Street
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:13pm PT
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FYI: Grades at IC mean nothing, due to the variety of hand sizes for any given person.
So quoth the Doctor himself.
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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SeñorE, agreed, but then again, that kinda applies to most crack climbing areas...
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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Oct 10, 2007 - 01:39pm PT
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It's all too subjective if you ask me. I don't think you can even compare one area to the next, I think you'd have to compare specific routes at one particular area to come up with a sand bagged rating.
I mean Yosemite has some solid grades from 5.3 to 5.9 but if that's the base then it's not sand bagged just reality. And from what I've climbed there in the 5.10-.12 range they seem more spot on. Index really doesn't have much below 5.9 most of which would be sand bagged but only in comparison to other areas which I'd argue are soft giving you the appearance of a sand bagged area. If you compare the 9's to the 10's in the area you'll find they aren't sand bagged really.
I think ratings have just gotten too diluted over the years. People rate things with different ideals. Just because it's run out like the needles doesn't make the 5.8 harder than 5.8 and just because the rough and wide cracks of Vedavou are unusual doesn't make the technical climbing any harder for the grade they get.
Then it gets tougher if you include sport areas. Is a route 5.10 because it's a really long 5.9? What if you've got a super short route with one 5.11ish move. Do you rate it a 10 because it's short or an 11 based on a single move?
It just seems like routes people consider sand bagged are those put up from back in the day. It seems like back then climbers would rate a route based on the hardest part of the route you'd have to climb regardless of the endurance requirement. Now it seems like even if the route technically is no more challenging than a 5.8 it might be rated 5.10 because of pro, length of route, endurance requirements, R-factor, etc.
So the real question is how "should" routes be rated (hypothetically in a perfect world)? That right there should then tell us which particular routes are "sand bagged". What factors went into rating routes in the 60's, 70's compared to now? If we toss out some of the ego driven route's and deal with the average routes how do we come up with their rating?
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