Trad areas?

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bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 22, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
All this trad talk made me wonder:

Are there any pure trad areas still left? besides Elbsandstein?

Kamps in action.
Chicken Skinner

Trad climber
Yosemite
Sep 22, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
Dexter Canyon used to be. Just kidding John.

Ken
JAK

climber
The Souf
Sep 22, 2007 - 05:28pm PT
Define "pure trad area"?

I can think of plenty of places that don't cotton to that thurr spurt climbin'.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Ventura
Sep 22, 2007 - 07:20pm PT
Bobby K taught me how to climb!
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 22, 2007 - 07:29pm PT
The Gunks comes to mind.
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2007 - 07:35pm PT
Trad is on-sight, ground up (free, aid or mixed)..... Mr. Chicken Skinner!
Crimpergirl

Social climber
St. Looney
Sep 22, 2007 - 07:38pm PT
Seneca Rocks comes to mind also
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2007 - 08:02pm PT
No rap bolting at the Gunks or Seneca?
Trevor

Big Wall climber
Escondido, CA
Sep 22, 2007 - 08:30pm PT
Is there any rap-bolting on Tahquitz?
creetur

climber
CA
Sep 22, 2007 - 08:37pm PT
I think Paradise Forks in northern AZ has just a single line of bolts (no anchor bolts or shuts anywhere or anything) that no one climbs, on principle--it really pissed the locals off.
but you current arizonians can confirm...maybe something has changed.
BadInfluence

Mountain climber
Dak side
Sep 22, 2007 - 08:45pm PT
Millbrook!

Romano style. Ground up, always going for it.

no bolts, no fixed anchors. Just Bank Deposits
Crimpergirl

Social climber
St. Looney
Sep 22, 2007 - 10:54pm PT
It is my understanding that Seneca is trad in the strictest sense of the word - no rap bolting. In fact, to this day, there continues to be almost no bolts at all!

From page 9 of the Tony Barnes guide titled Seneca: The Climber's Guide:

"A few years ago the Seneca climbing community embraced on the of the strongest no-bolts climbing ethics in the United States. In 1980 there were fewer than ten bolts on the entire cliff:each and everyone of which was hotly debated long before they were placed, on the lead. The American bolting ethics has loosened considerably during the 1980s and early 1990s, but at Seneca their use continues to be sparse."


If you haven't been there, you should go. I've said it before - it's the only climbing I miss since moving away from the DC area. It's wonderful!

John Stannard can speak of this with much greater authority. Or perhaps you can get Tony Barnes or Hunt Prothro to post. They have both posted here before.

Ah... Seneca...

Looking up at Castor and Pollux (and you can see Orange Aid and Alcoa Presents up high)...

Juicer

Trad climber
SLC
Sep 22, 2007 - 10:55pm PT
The Horn in the Henry Mountains has one rap bolted route. Everything else has been ground up with varying degrees of style depending on the talent and the difficulty. The pocketed nature of the area lends its self to the approach. This and the remoteness of the crag have slowed the pace of development, so there are some challenges still to be had. There's nothing like casting off with you wits and some hooks!
Jeremy Handren

climber
NV
Sep 22, 2007 - 11:04pm PT
Since trad means no bolts that clearly rules out Elbsandsteingebirge.

Long live the Grit......

C'mon John lets start another range war.
stella

climber
cali
Sep 22, 2007 - 11:13pm PT
devils lake, wisconsin. not a bolt or fixed anchor in the park.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 23, 2007 - 12:09am PT
I haven't climbed at Paradise Forks for decades but I would be delighted to learn that the locals have kept to a slim to no additional bolt ethic on the basalt areas. You can toprope any section of basalt around so forcing up heavily bolted routes would really ugly up the place.

The spectacular Reef of Rock in Tucson's Santa Catalina mountains is still predominantly gear routes if I am not mistaken. Always an adventure to be had out there during the warm half of the year and absolutely no competition for routes.
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 23, 2007 - 12:12am PT
Speaking of Richie and Seneca

On Terra Firma

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Sep 23, 2007 - 12:36am PT
"Since trad means no bolts"

horsesh#t, a pure clean climbing ethic says that, not a traditional ethic alone. bolting has been a part of the tradition for centuries.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 23, 2007 - 12:58am PT
Bolts, we shall always have them with us. But in a misty land far, far away............




From Mountain 42 March / April 1975. True grit!
Chicken Skinner

Trad climber
Yosemite
Sep 23, 2007 - 01:49am PT
Crimpie and Steve,

I just spent a delightful evening with Jstan, Mighty Hiker, and Khanom. We had dinner together after organizing up coming events. The Facelift has officially been started. Steve, I wish you could make it with you know who. Crimpie I am psyched you are rearranging your schedule to make it. Just to show you,I used to climb before I took on seemingly impossible projects.I will climb again.


Ken
murcy

climber
San Fran Cisco
Sep 23, 2007 - 02:12am PT
awesome picture.
Chicken Skinner

Trad climber
Yosemite
Sep 23, 2007 - 02:22am PT
Kevin Worrall photo.

Ken

P.S. The Falls were pounding and you could feel it in the rock. Awesome experience!
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2007 - 12:21pm PT
I love the Grit, but the only real trad routes there are the ones that were established ground up - not rehearsed on top rope.

On another note: Elbsandstein seems pretty trad to me (including the routes that do have bolts).
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 23, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
Ken - Tell Jstan that there's a Henry Barber Vertigo Direct mystery awaiting awaiting him. Have an awesome time beauticians!
Crimpergirl

Social climber
St. Looney
Sep 23, 2007 - 01:00pm PT
I am insanely jealous that I am not in Yosemite already. Time has slowed to a crawwwwwllllllll....
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Sep 23, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
"No rap bolting at the Gunks or Seneca?"

None at Seneca, and almost none at the Gunks. The Arrow and Sente had bolts placed on them on rappel by Willie Crowther in 1960. This practice did not continue, with just an exception or two, until a few climbers started placing bolts in order to protect cutting-edge climbs in the mid-eighties.

It should be mentioned that Rich Romano continued to climb at the highest levels without ever placing a piton or a bolt. At this point Romano has done hundreds of climbs, almost all of them 5.10 or harder, onsight, ground-up, and protected only with nuts and cams (and in one case, hooks).

The few bolts placed were also accompanied by some chipping and chiseling, and all these anti-traditional practices started a lively and sometimes acrimonious controversey, leading to a remarkable series of climber's meetings in 1986 and 1987 which confirmed the community's commitment to ban rap bolting, piton placement, and other forms of cliff alteration.

In 1988, the Preserve made the community's essentially voluntary moratorium a matter of Preserve policy, apparently settling the issue once and for all. However, ten years later, faced with a proliferation of rappel slings left all over the cliffs by climbers no longer interested in starting at the bottom, arriving at the top, and walking back down, the Preserve decided it was not subject to its own rules and began a bolting program that created a number of fixed belay and rappel anchors in the most heavily used locations.

In spite of the few exceptions, I think it is fair to say that the Gunks remains one of the country's genuinely traditional climbing areas.
JAK

climber
The Souf
Sep 23, 2007 - 04:45pm PT
" Trad is on-sight, ground up (free, aid or mixed)..... Mr. Chicken Skinner!"


Um...pretty much all of North Carolina except Sauratown Bluffs?

I mean, granted, there are a few rap bolted lines at Moore's Wall, Rumbling Bald, and exceedingly small sections of other crags, but if you come to NC with just draws, ya gon' be dis'pointed boy. Lines unprotectable by anything else tend to be hand-bolted on lead after serious run-outs (sounds like someone's famous test piece?!), and the R/X ratings are alive and well.

If you want it really pure, head to Whiteside Mountain, which is not only trad, but harrowing trad with many long unprotectable sections that have the bolt at the *end*. The High Anxiety Headwall may not quite be the B-Y, but it's named that for a a reason:

Photo Credit: Paul Rothfeldt Climber: Bruce Burgess


Come on over to the East Coast for a bit. We gots some good stuff.
Crimpergirl

Social climber
St. Looney
Sep 23, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
Whitesides is really nice! Here is a small TR from last November (2006) right after Thanksgiving. I post it so you can see some Whitesides photos. Can you say fun and run out?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=313825&msg=313825#msg313825
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Sep 23, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
How about Ragged Mt. in CT or any place in CT, home of KN.
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2007 - 05:41pm PT
JAK - nice pic.

Encouraging news - I gots to get myself out there!

Thanx, jb
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 23, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
Steve G wrote:
>I haven't climbed at Paradise Forks for decades but I would be
>delighted to learn that the locals have kept to a slim to no
>additional bolt ethic on the basalt areas. You can toprope
>any section of basalt around so forcing up heavily bolted
>routes would really ugly up the place.

Steve - although the bolted arete (Australians At The Forks, think) was rstored at some point over the last bunch of years, the rest of the Forks hasn't gone bolted yet. There is a movement afoot in Flag where some climbers are lobbying to try to get anchor bolts placed there. The rim area has seen some wear and tear and they claim that bolted anchors will save the trees and the rim from further damage. Personally, I don't think it will do what they think it will, but that's just my opinion. I'd hate to see all those bolts at the Forks.

I believe Granite Mountain is pretty much ground up on everything except maybe the Leo Henson route Blowin' in the Wind (heard there were some extenuating circumstances on that one).
Ezra

Trad climber
WA, NC
Sep 23, 2007 - 07:33pm PT
Here's a pure trad area..... love the Trip Report one of the best I've ever read, even if it is a couple of years old.... it only has a 2 day approach too!

http://www.mountaineers.org/nwmj/06/061_Mox.html
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 23, 2007 - 09:52pm PT
Steel- Lots of top anchor options worth considering before the usual solution is employed. Installing blackened 1/2" stainless studs that are keyhole hanger compatible would be a sensible middle ground as long as the peculiarity was well advertised and the appropriate hangers for sale back in town. Nuthin' to shoot at neither! Glad to hear the place hasn't been plooked by machines because it is too fine.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Sep 23, 2007 - 10:37pm PT
Also at the forks was Americans at Arapiles on the prow wall. I think it was rap bolted and subsequently chopped.
Crimpergirl

Social climber
St. Looney
Sep 23, 2007 - 11:34pm PT
Ezra: I recognized the mug of Mr. E right away in the TR. Thanks for posting. I'd not seen it before -
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Sep 23, 2007 - 11:50pm PT
has anyone here actually climbed the Elbsandstein? After seeing some of Todd G's pics of other eastern european sandstone, might be a rad trip.


that or clip bolts on Kalymnos.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 24, 2007 - 09:49am PT
Stella, no fixed pins at all at Devil's Lake? I ask becaue, I learned to climb there, back when pounding pins was the norm. Back then you ran itno the odd fixed pin.

Steve, Steel, I swear there is a big ol dead tree in the bottom pf the forks that we used to use as a top rope/rapel anchor (paradise lost? Watusi?)

Just a comment, this is not an endorsemnt of bolts @ the forks ... to which I would be opposed ... not that it matters what I think!
BlazeOn

Trad climber
Asheville, NC
Sep 24, 2007 - 10:22am PT
Yeah...what JAK said...VERY T-Rad here in NC. Rap bolting is generally frowned upon, on-sight, ground up is the local ethic. A strong mind is integral part of NC trad rack.
Crag

Trad climber
Sep 24, 2007 - 10:32am PT
I would agree with the others that places such as Seneca and the Gunks have a very strong Trad ethic. There are bolted climbs at Seneca but they are few by comparison to places like Nelson Rocks (closed but up for sale for a cool $950K), and the New. More importantly the bolted climbs at Seneca are not always 100% all bolts and I'm of the belief that the bolts were placed sans rapping.
handsome B

Gym climber
SL,UT
Sep 24, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
The Elephant's Perch is trad by law.
stella

climber
cali
Sep 24, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
jaybro - yeah, i guess that was a bit of a blanket statement. devils lake has a few random fixed pins, bolts, and fixed anchors (is that big rappel ring still on top of cleopatras needle?) but i can count on one hand the total of these combined that i have seen personally. i learned to climb there as well, and haven't been back in a while, but devil's lake seems to be about as trad as it gets.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 24, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
We rarely see any TR's of Elephants Perch; clearly some of the best multipitch granite around.

Elbsandstein has long been on my wish list.
TwistedCrank

climber
Caution: Filling may be hot.
Sep 24, 2007 - 12:43pm PT
Just ignore those shiney metallic things with the finger holes next to the crack.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 24, 2007 - 01:29pm PT
"We rarely see any TR's of Elephants Perch"
Paging Mr Friedrichs!


Thanks, Stella!
Here's another one, can a route on Devil's Doorway be considered trad, when the whole formation was assembled by the CCC?
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana
Sep 24, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
OK...what would it be called if you have to rap down 200-300 ft. to the beginnig of the climb and then climb out placing gear? (a la Fremont Canyon?)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
Beacon Rock. There are fixed pins and occasional bolt and bashie, but the climbing is still ground up trad. Matter of fact, I chopped my lead line yesterday cleaning a large panel of flakes off a new line yesterday.
burp

Trad climber
Salt Lake City
Sep 24, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
May be too obvious, but ...

Indian Creek. Hasn't everything gone in ground-up there? Free, aid, or mixed. Some things have gone all free after being put in on aid or mixed. Who knows ... are some of the new routes rapped down for pre-placed gear (bolts/removable gear)? Anyway ... I'm not a walking encyclopedia on IC ... just seems pure trad by default.

The Swell, Zion National Park, Canyonlands NP (in the park itself), & Capital Reef NP all come to mind.

The Utah desert tends to favor trad climbing, though there are exceptions.

Enjoy!

burp
treeman

climber
mule city
Sep 24, 2007 - 04:13pm PT
Steelmonkey- I believe Leo's Blowin in the Wind at GM went ground up by hand except for the last bolt. He said he faced the conundrum of not finishing the line or dropping in from the top and sinking one last bolt. Tough call on that one.
Wild Bill

climber
Ca
Sep 24, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
Came back to town and found some real live climbing threads on ST! WTF?

How about the Needles in the Black Hills? Or has that area been overrun with rap bolters too? I haven't climbed there in a decade, but historically it fits the definition of trad: ground up, scarce pro too.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Sep 24, 2007 - 04:42pm PT
The Gunks may have a strong trad ethic, but every weekend you'll see people asking a leader to trail a rope and hang it for them so they can TR beyond their ability to lead(if they even do lead). Others will lead up easier routes to get a rope on a hard route(like hopping on Bunny, to hang(literally)on Retribution/No Solution/Nosedive).

By the way - it looks like next year a new (bouldering) venue may be accessible in the area. The Mohonk Preserve signed a Letter of Understanding a short while ago regarding the Rosendale Water Works(I know no more...whether it was with the Open Space Institute, or the owners of the Water Works land).


....while I still wait to get to the 'ghatt....grrrr. I only so far have found the back park entrances. I have no doubt that's the way....but have no one to go on an expedition with.
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 24, 2007 - 05:00pm PT
treeman - I just heard something somewhere about some holds breaking off while he was hooking to drill and basically having to decide if he wanted holds or bolts. Something along that line. Sounds like you have better source of info than the story I heard. Thanks!
treeman

climber
mule city
Sep 24, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
Of course, the way the last bolt got in on Blowin' at GM is a little dicey: Leo talked the late Robert Drysdale (who had never been to GM) into rapping down and placing the last bolt with a power drill. So word so gets out that Leo rap/ power drilled the whole route and the Prescott College crew gets all up in arms and slanders Leo and every move the guy ever made. Anyone know of any Blowin' repeats?
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 24, 2007 - 05:40pm PT
Lt Lugar, I don't think the trad / sport, thing is decided by the method of approach to the base of climb, if you don't preview, anyway. har.

Really,
Rapping down to a ledge, pulling the ropes, and climbing a new line out, seems to me to be about as trad as it gets. No one seems to reffer to those brit sea cliff routes as 'sportclimbs.'

On the other hand, I'm not big on labels.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 24, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
Labels tend to connote limitation: “don't box me in dude”.
Distinctions on the other hand, highlight uniqueness and beget understanding.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 24, 2007 - 05:50pm PT
Dang! For a drugstore cowboy, you have your moments, hehe.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Sep 24, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
I climbed for one day at Elbsandstein. Just left the rope in the car 'cuz I didn't do anything I wasn't willing to downsolo. Pretty hard going chalkless in the summer. They have all these little steel boxes on the summit for the registers-- it's one of the few places where I actually signed those things. There are routes that are fairly well-protected by ring bolts--steep slabs that look pretty cool, so long as you are careful to select routes with better rock.

But "trad" is a pretty squishy concept--what counts as "trad" is going to vary slightly from area to area. In Elbsandstein shoulder stands are allowed on lots of routes (one way to get past a blank section that would otherwise require aid is to climb until the holds end; place a ring bolt and call it a belay; then stand on the belayer's shoulders to reach the next set of holds; repeat as necessary, so long as the rings are spaced). And since metal chocks and cams are also illegal, you will see perfecly lovely (and protectable) flakes and cracks with ringbolts alongside them. That wouldn't fly in American "trad."

I'd go back if I thought I could get lucky with some cool weather
BadInfluence

Mountain climber
Dak side
Sep 24, 2007 - 08:20pm PT
jaybro wrote
"Rapping down to a ledge, pulling the ropes, and climbing a new line out, seems to me to be about as trad as it gets."

Millbrook!

Ezra

Trad climber
WA, NC
Sep 24, 2007 - 08:34pm PT
Bad influence, where is that cliff band, it looks very familiar.
Thanks
-e
BadInfluence

Mountain climber
Dak side
Sep 24, 2007 - 08:44pm PT
Gunks

Ezra I'll be in NC at the end of this week
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 24, 2007 - 10:47pm PT
Hadn't really heard anyone slamming Leo. Guess it'll happen, though. I've never heard of anyone repeating the line. At 5.13, don't think there'll ever be a big line on it. Or a small line...

Ever hear of a repeat on Waugh's free climb of the Nose at Granite Mountain (aka Bridge Across Forever)?
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana
Sep 24, 2007 - 11:51pm PT
Jaybro-I never said I pulled the rap line at Fremont Cyn., doh! I'm adventurous, but not crazy, especially when the water is a Class 6 (so I'm told when they're letting water run through the canyon), swimming out is not an option. Although, Captain Fremont and his boys gave it a run...I believe they got a little wet.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 25, 2007 - 01:56am PT
I always loved climbing at Millbrook, back when I was climbing in the 'Gunks you could almost always be the only team over there, even when the Trapps were hopping...

And this time of year is magical...
...ah well, I'll be in the Valley, hard to complain.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 25, 2007 - 03:01am PT
"Ever hear of a repeat on Waugh's free climb of the Nose at Granite Mountain (aka Bridge Across Forever)? "

Deja vu! didn't I ask this once, on the other side of the record? better turn it over and see ... "it's okay they're all speaking chinese,"

Just stirring the pot, Lugar, last month I heard a first hand account from both members of a party that did just almost that (not a new route, though; still scary, esp for the nonrope puller) so your post made me think of that.
steelmnkey

climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Sep 25, 2007 - 10:00am PT
JBro - I was just asking treeman as he seemed to be a new guy in the mix that knew some stuff!
Ezra

Trad climber
WA, NC
Sep 25, 2007 - 08:30pm PT
Bad influence, sorry i can't climb this weekend, I'm out of town for my daughter's first birthday, other wise I could show you Moores Wall. send me an e-mail if you need a local partner, I may know some people climbing.
-e
426

Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
Sep 25, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
suck creek, tn.

-best to have the kevlar if yer rap boltin or using a bosch...RR (not royal) shot a few rounds above the hangdogs accordin' to lore...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 26, 2007 - 12:46am PT
Are there any pure trad areas still left? besides Elbsandstein?

Uh, I think there are a few mountains that are still pretty trad. Not the sherpa and fixed rope and snow slog, but the alpine rock, start at the bottom and climb to the top, kind.

D
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 26, 2007 - 01:18am PT
You know that's a fact Ghost.
This post upthread from Ezra is pretty cool, about an alpine rock face in the N Cascades, Mox Peak:
(pretty cool link & read)
http://www.mountaineers.org/nwmj/06/061_Mox.html

Nevertheless, methinks Bachar is more interested in cragging per se.
Lambone

Ice climber
Ashland, Or
Sep 26, 2007 - 01:27am PT
Castle Crags State Park
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 26, 2007 - 02:03am PT
This post upthread from Ezra is pretty cool, about an alpine rock face in the N Cascades, Mox Peak

That was a fine one. And every range has dozens just like it.

Nevertheless, methinks Bachar is more interested in cragging per se.

No doubt. But really, "trad" is more a state of mind than a particular set of rules, and there are plenty of areas/crags where the odd sport route, or top-down ascent takes nothing away from a multitude of trad lines.

Likewise there are places where the kind of ground-up trad purity that JB is talking about simply isn't possible. When the crack lines are full of thousands of years of dirt, tree roots, and moss, the only way to end up with the kind of wonderful trad climb we all want is to aid your way up through the crap and then dig your way down.

Squamish is a perfect example. The amazing crack lines are the result of a vast amount of vertical landscaping. Concensus among the route grubbers is about one hundred person-hours per pitch to get the kind of climb one can be proud of handing over to the community. On a multi-pitch climb that translates to a whole season -- or several seasons -- of work. And even then it takes a few years of steady traffic to remove the last vestiges of dirt and vegetation from the cracks.

In many parts of the world it is possible to walk up to the base of a cliff and climb to the top. Onsight, ground-up, no drilling. The whole pure enchilada. Other places, that just isn't possible until someone else has invested half his summer to get a route ready for you to make the second (but first pure) ascent.

David
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 26, 2007 - 02:23am PT
Ghost said:
"But really, "trad" is more a state of mind than a particular set of rules".
Now that's poignant.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Sep 26, 2007 - 03:23am PT
"The 4th is more than a day ..."
bachar

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2007 - 11:54am PT
Tar baby is right on the money - I'm mostly interested in new cragging spots that are trad oriented.

All these areas are sounding pretty cool to check out. I never realized the Right Coast had so many trad spots!

Of course the difference between "trad" and "not-trad" is never black and white - there will always be shades of grey but that's OK. It keeps us trad guys and gals striving to achieve the ultimate in "trad purity" whenever possible and it is always inspiring to see what climbers have accomplished in this direction when visiting different areas.

Apart from that, I got to say thanks for all the info folks... this is great stuff for all trad aficionados.
le_bruce

climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
Sep 26, 2007 - 02:07pm PT
A spot outside of Santiago, Chile called las columnas, in the Valle de la Engorda has got some strong ethics going. Got to rap off knots at the top of every climb. Still many unclimbed lines there.




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