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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 9, 2007 - 08:58pm PT
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Ok, I'm looking into buying a power drill. The only rocks around here are blank and are actually good sport climbing material. I went out last week and placed a couple 1/2" bolts by hand for top anchors on a route, and my elbows ain't what they used to be...
So, I'm looking for recommendations on a good power drill. I probably will only need to drill (at most) 12 bolts at a time, and the rock is fairly hard sandtone and limestone. Plus it would be nice to have something lighter weight because of the highly strenuous approaches (read: "5 minute approach" in old folks speak).
I've seen mentions of the Hilti TE-6A and the old Bosch 11213R. Can you let me know what models are available, plus a rough idea of prices and where the best places are to get one?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Bosch Annihilator has been good, but I'm really wanting to mod it so the battery pack is not in my hand but on my ass.
if rapping in, it won't matter, then just most bolts per charge is good.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Ebay is the place to look once you decide on the model.
The hilti is the way to go but might be overkill. Plus they are a lot more expensive.
If you find a used drill that has bettery packs that are on their way out DON'T buy new ones. Build a super-charge unit (others have different names for them). Two 7 amp hour hobby batteries in series ($15-$20) to build will get you 30+ holes per charge.
Munge Edit: build the super-charger! And remember, don't use extension cord as it's designed for 120V - thick speaker cord (designed for low resistence low volts is the way to go) is the way to go.
There's a thread around here somewhere on the whole super-charge unit that is most excellent.
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WBraun
climber
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John
If you need an external battery pack built. I'll build it for you.
We've got both Bosh and Hilti here at sar, and the Hilti has the external battery power pack built by me.
I use Gates Hawker batteries as they are the best and most robust.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 09:58pm PT
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Cool-
I just bought a used Bosch Annihilator SDS 11225VSR on Ebay without a battery pack for about $155. Seemed like a pretty good deal, hope it's not a scam.
Now looking for a battery!
Werner--the external battery system you talked about, let me know more.
Hmm, wot can I trade with you...?
cheers
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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One hour time lapse! From "I'm Looking" to "I just bought." That's gotta be a record....
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Hehehe
John, welcome to the Dark Side .
Munge:
What you don't lead with tha powa drill? I do, with the battery still on it too. Heavy bastard tries to unbalance me though. Then again I don't climb very hard so it doesn't matter to much.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 10:21pm PT
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Cool, Werner.
I sent you an email, but can I have a couple of them babies sent over to ya for customization?
(I'll need your ship address).
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 10:23pm PT
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I guess I'm a impact, er impulse buyer, Hippiegirl!
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WBraun
climber
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John it's ....
9000 Lost Arrow drive
Yosemite, Calif 95389
That's my FEDEX and UPS address
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Uh... I hate to disagree with the great Werner Braun but....
The bang for the buck is pretty steep on that job. I've had a lot of success with similar Amp hour batteries at a way fraction of the cost - like $8 each at Battieries Plus. I guess if money doesn't matter than I'm just blowing smoke....
I use a 7 amp hour ($15 each) battery for my power packs. 50 holes in hard sandstone with a bosch is typical.
Besides that... John, can you do silver soldering? It's pretty darn easy to set up the rig. Series VS parallel concept is about all it takes. And a bit of thinking on the types of terminals you'd like to use.
Should I shut up or?
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WBraun
climber
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No Nature you are correct.
You can get cheaper batteries if you want and they'll most likely work just fine. How much do yours weigh?
The Hawkers just have a much lower internal resistance than the cheaper ones therefore much better power transfer and are very very robust.
Whatever you want to spend is fine. John doesn't have to buy these as they are Cadillac batteries, the finest.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Werner, the weight to Amp hour ratio is the same as the ones you show in that url. 1 amp hour ~= 1 lb weight. My 7 amp hours batteries weight 7 lbs. 2.5 as you show weigh 2.4 lbs.
As far as the internal resistence mumbo jumbo :-) - I have no comment as I have no clue about that stuff.
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WBraun
climber
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The Hawkers can take the abuse.
What most folks don't know about sealed lead acid batteries is that they will become damaged when their internal voltage drops below 10.8 volts.
Most cheap batteries will rapidly degrade if run down to this or below voltage level.
The Hawkers since they are designed for extreme use will come back alive far far below that. I've seen em come back full bore from around 1.3 vdc and still work years after.
Ordinary cheaper ones will be long gone dead birds.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 11:07pm PT
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Hi Werner--
I'm convinced. Should I buy anthing else from PPS, like a charger or power adapters or anything. If so, which of the bazillion choices of the charger should I get?
yeehaw.
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WBraun
climber
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I'll send you one of my custom chargers don't buy a charger.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 11:34pm PT
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Super cool Werner-
The batteries are on their way.
Keep me posted.
cheers
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
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Here's a pic of the drill I bought. No grip thingie in the front--will that matter too much?
Looks like there's another model called the VSRH (this one is the VSR). The VSRH has a 3 amp battery, while the VSR has a 1.7 amp battery. Not sure if the motor is any different.
ps: Nature, thanks for the Ebay tip! Good timing, methinks.
And Mungemaster, thanks for the initial lead!!
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spongerbob
Gym climber
Cal
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Aug 10, 2007 - 12:00am PT
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Dude, that thing's proud!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 10, 2007 - 12:59am PT
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The 11225vsr and 11225vsrh are both the "Annihilator" model.
IIRC, the 1.7Ah battery (Bosch #BAT019)was discontinued. The 3.0Ah replacement battery is part # BAT021.
That NiCad battery pack is expensive, and NiCads have their drawbacks. My $.02 is that the SLA battery pack is the way to go, and for less money.
The Hawker SLA batteries look top of the line. However, I've had great results from batteries costing half as much. (15+ years on my first set).
You might check out Gruber Power Services for batteries and particularly the inexpensive 12v, 1.0 amp, charger:
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/advertising/batteries/cutsheets/55-805000.asp
Also, search this site for other threads on details of building battery packs. Some info on RC.com too (there I'm climbbaja).
Feel free to e-mail if you need more info.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Aug 10, 2007 - 01:58am PT
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you don't need the grip thingy, but you can probably get one cheap off off another climber on the boards if ya needs since most folks don't use it. I like it but totally extraneous.
one thing about the battery (may hit you up later for more insight Nature and you too Werner) is that since I'm not running the battery down I only get 3 bars on recharging typically. i have a feeling this will cut the life of the battery down. I like the bar indicators on bosch batteries... gives a sense of how many holes you got left for the day. and if you are out on the sharp end and leading out, kinda nice to know you can get at least one more bolt in before it dies sort thing.
as for what you said Tmoses, yep mostly drill from lead, with the occasional rap bolted route. that thing really throws you off balance. I like to yard it up hand over hand or hand to teeth. Tried the pulley on the ass method and it's f*#king heavy and really pulls yar drawers down. make sure to have good hand holds when you do this. But it is very fast.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Aug 10, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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sik set up Juan. thx
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 10, 2007 - 02:08am PT
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John,
The Hilti TE-6a is to drills what Theron and I think your A5 is to hammers now that we both actually own one and have been swinging them for a couple of months (in fact, I just used yours all week to set bolts on the bases of all our new porch columns and to anchor all the new railing posts to the driveway retaining wall).
Hilti also makes a slick belt adapter for their battery - I have one, but in the end I never use it. I got my drill and two batteries off ebay by watching them go by for awhile and pouncing on an off-hour ending time with esnipe ($425 + $21 shipping). Contrary to popular belief it's been three years now and both batteries are going completely strong and have never run out of gas unexpectedly.
So far it's only been used on anchor replacements and not for protection bolts.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Aug 10, 2007 - 04:08am PT
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John;..I have a Dewalt.....it's a champ......My wrist and elbow could take no more hand-drillin'.......I hung in there for a long time, but I too crossed over to " the dark side."....(You'll love it...and it give you more time to hang out and do the family thing.....by the way;..congrats on the parenthood;....it's to best, aint' it!......and you finally grew up......next time at Josh, let's have a diaper party! .) Todd
Out!
In!
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 09:51am PT
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yeah, baby!!! Can't wait to be ripping them in. Virgin cliffs beware.
Nic battery packs Juan--I'll be planning to sew something up similiar.
Yep, Todd, loving the dad life. Supercool. Gotta get some routes up to train the little guy...
cheers
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 10, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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You might look for an ebay Bosch 3aH battery for the drill too. The have a nice battery power indicator built in so you can kinda tell how much juice they have.
The Bosch is a tad hard to get used to with the clutch that only engages when you push it into the rock. Nice drill though, and, nice balance for leading. If you do any overhead drilling, at full arm extension, try turning the drill upside down and working the trigger with your pinky finger grip. Works amazingly well.
The lighter battery (that 1.7aH and I think they made a 2.0 or 2.5 one too) is nice to have if you can find one. Quite a bit lighter for leading. But, no where near the number of holes than a 3.0aH (at least mine, although, its still taking a full charge based on the indicator lights).
I took my front handle off, not really too necessary and just adds weight and space.
If I had the extra cabbage, the new Hilti TE-6A with the new lithium battery would be sweet. Was hoping to upgrade to the new battery, but, looks like the lithium's won't fit the older drills. Bummer.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Aug 10, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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These virgin cliffs arent in Pagosa Are they? If so is it down Piedra road of some new place you have scoped? Last I heard you lived in Pagosa. The rock is decent or absolutely horrid around there. By the way, you planning on hitting up the Four Corners FOlk Fest? Nickle Creek will be there!
Take care,
Jesse
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2007 - 10:47am PT
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Hi Jesse-
Yep, there's a lot of good rock down Piedra Canyon, but there's tons of poison ivy there. Still, there's a few lines that look good and their bases are clear of PI, so I'll be wanting to set some top anchors to check them out, and who knows, maybe even place some rap bolts for a future lead (part of me can't even believe I just wrote that).
There's also a bunch of good rock over the pass, on the South Fork side of Wolf Creek Pass. That's where I envision taking my boy climbing the first time around here. Gotta get some moderate routes established....
ps, and oh yes, we'll be at the four corners folk fest. As a town council member, the organizers give us free tickets! But we'd be there anyway.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 10, 2007 - 11:29am PT
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A buddy of mine ran 100' of heavy duty speaker wire through 1" tubular webbing. He built a variety of super-chargers (one with 3 Amp Hour batteries, another with 7 amp hour batteries). He built a case for them out of 4" or 6" white PVC pipe and rigged it up sorta like a poop tube. He leaves the thing on the ground when he's putting routes up on lead.
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Aug 10, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
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MY pal and I did a First ascent on the cliff band above the one by the river. We called it Unglued, and its a all gear route with some baby angles for anchors. Unglued because we were told that everything down there has to be glue in's. Big meadows, on the other side of the pass, is pretty neat. You are also relatively close to Penitente. Growing up in Pagosa, once we exhausted Piedra, we would go there often. Maybe we shall see you at the festival.
Jesse.
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 10, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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Healy is right, the bit, and it's condition can make a huge difference, and Hilti has better bits by two or three more hole per battery, they just cut faster., and after a while, whatever that is, pay the money and get them sharpened.
Hilti was the superior drill, not sure if anyone has caught up...
there was the Ryobi GAS drill, but even the powerbolters don't want to be caught mentioning THAT!
Ed
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 10, 2007 - 05:16pm PT
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The DeWalt is a POS. I had a 24V DeWalt cordless and it could not do the job. I trashed a ton of bits. That drill is long gone - burned it out. While my buddies way old BullDog (14 years old) is still running strong - especially now that it's been retrofit with a super-charger power pack.
Impact force in roto-hammer mode is key. The DeWalt has not enough while the Hilti has a ton. DeWalt does make a roto-hammer-drill that has high impact force but the retail price ticket last I checked was close to $600
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Aug 10, 2007 - 06:51pm PT
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Nature;...I'm sorry you have not had good luck with the Dewalt;...I have. I use it once or twice a week, have drilled a few thousand holes with it, ...even dropped it about 40'...and it lived.....we do all our routes on the lead, so we like the lighter weight......and we get maybe 12 holes to a battery...and we carry extra batteries.....I think the Dewalt is cheaper too.....I have used other drills too....I prefer the Dewalt......but others prefer the Helti and Bosch....(Anything over the hand drill.....I'm so over that crap......that will ruin your elbow and wrist after a decade or three of bang-banging.....)
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 10, 2007 - 07:01pm PT
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Come on Deuce, one of those giant beer cans is going to fall from above and squash you.
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Slabmonger
climber
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Aug 11, 2007 - 01:45am PT
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Sounds like you've gotten plenty of drill and battery advise here, but I'll add one thing I've done for my battery system for the same drill. I wanted an external, gel-cell battery pack and was a little weary of going into the case of the drill so used the existing (dead) battery for my solution. I simply opened up the old rechargeable battery pack which wouldn't hold a charge and gutted it of its contents, leaving the wiring going to the batteries intact. After that, simply fish in a new two-strand power cord and wire up to the battery pack wires, then put the case back together (I used a female end of an extension cord coming out of the battery pack). This allows the drill to use factory batteries, and requires no modifications to the drill itself. If anyone's interested, I could put up more info.
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Loomis
climber
Praha 6, Ceska Republika
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Aug 11, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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John, this is the real deal, still works great after 20 years.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Aug 11, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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My rig:
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
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Hi John,
I'm just back from western Colorado where I saw 3" fall on the divide tuesday. Hoa! Send some back this way.
Been a Bulldog man for more than 20 years.
Used one to drill 11 holes on the FA of Charlie Fowler Tower last May. (Charlie would've loved it.)
But here is the dichotomy; for an initial 8 bolt ladder (drilled angles actually) I used an auxiliary battery in my day pack composed of two of those 12 volt batteries you can buy cheap at Walmart (made for those kiddie cars). Then to cut (topheavy) weight I lowered the assembly and climbed on.
When I needed to finish the route off with three more bolts I then hauled the drill with the standard Bosch battery (lighter) which has adequate juice for smaller jobs.
But Deucey, it sounds to me like you are only entertaining a mild flirtation with the dark side. To truly be able to say to Rowen, "Luke, I am your FAAAther" you must use your light saber to drill pockets!
Yes. I know you reject the notion NOW.
But the power of the Bosch will creep into your soul. Now you are putting diapers on Rowen, but soon you will be putting diapers on yourself.
The very excuses you entertain of failing connective tissue will lead you down the path to hell.
Today its merely a sport route. Tomorrow perhaps an enhanced pin scar. But your eternal spirit is on the line here. Believe me I know (just don't ask for details).
Stand up!
Stand up I tell you!
Raise your hands up to the sky and say, "Devil drill I reject thee. I smash your corruption on the rocks (or give it away cheap), and vow to keep a pure soul and pay for my rock dust with my very bone and sinew. I shall smote with hammer and tuning fork any nonbeliever's route who violates the WORD, and render all climbs righteous."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2007 - 08:42pm PT
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(that's what I get for watching "Network" again)
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 11, 2007 - 08:47pm PT
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Oh goody
This thread inspires.
When I need to test Düsseldorf Bosh retrofit I should bolt the entire Astroman so that only quick-draws are needed to do the climb.
I think the future is now!
You think?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 11, 2007 - 10:04pm PT
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Asportman?
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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I have had good results with this one:
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/advertising/batteries/cutsheets/55-805000.asp
When you asked: "Isn't it better to have a higher Amp/hour rating?", I'm not sure if you are referring to the charger or to the batteries.
The SLA batteries should be recharged with a 500ma (0.5 amp) to 1 amp smart charger. Faster charging is not good for the SLA batteries.
If you are referring to batteries, sure more amp-hour is great, but the cost is weight. You will need to find a compromise of power and weight to suit your needs. Two 3.0ah batteries works for leading a pitch or two. For all-day drilling, you might want two 7.0ah batteries.
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 18, 2008 - 06:04am PT
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I built two more battery packs and took digital photos this time around.
Aluminum bracket for securing two SLA batteries. 1/8" x 1" flat bar stock. A layer of duct tape is then wrapped over the outside.
Pre-wiring the connectors before installation.
Two 12v, 4.0Ah, SLA batteries, wired in series for 24v output at the male plug. There are two pairs of wires for charging with a 12v SLA smart charger. The gray adaptor (w/ male prongs cut off) is a protective cover for the male plug to prevent a short during transport.
The package is securely wrapped in duct tape to prevent connectors from pulling loose and shorted circuits.
Wrapped in protective closed cell foam. I hope the wife doesn't notice that her yoga mat is 2' shorter...
The completed SLA battery pack for a 24v Bosch rotohammer.
Buckle added in case the zipper blows. Hammer holster and gear loops added to the waist belt.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Sep 18, 2008 - 08:51am PT
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as one who has a phd in power drills and the ticket to prove it, go with the Hilti. they are the best, strongest and most reliable.
the new hilti kicks butt.
welcome to the dark side my son...
ks
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 18, 2008 - 10:39am PT
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Search your deepest feelings and you will know it to be true..........together we will rule the universe...even with bad elbows! LOL
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Sep 18, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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cool stuff!
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Loomis
climber
o(>_
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Sep 18, 2008 - 02:37pm PT
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the kid: I have to disagree.
Hilti™ is way too expensive, too heavy and difficult to modify.
I have tested the new Bosch™ and Hilti™ side by side and must say, was far more impressed with the Bosch™
And if you want to talk about reliability, look at the drill I posted earlier in the thread,
it turns 22 years old this week.
Through careful cleaning, brush replacement and lubrication, it could last another 22 years.
Welcome to the dark side indeed, Scott.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 18, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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Rokjox--Nothing about my climbing by way of end result or example has changed in the slightest. I have used power drills but prefer hand drilling. Beyond that the same amount of discretion, boldness and humility goes into each and every bolting decision that I personally make. Injecting a little humor into this thread doesn't make me a leave no trace hater----really!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2008 - 12:04am PT
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Thanks again everyone for all your recommendations. Werner built me a proud rig out of a ebay Bosch.
Juan, nice rig!
So it's been over a year that I had the powered courage in my closet, but I still haven't used it. My intent has been to bolt up some chossy crags near Pagosa, to establish some safe moderate routes, but the battery charger konked out, and one thing led to another, and now we're in Tassie (without the p.drill) , and here there are plenty of crags with moderate routes!
So I'm still a virgin power bolter. Someday, Skywalker, I will feel the force...
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Sep 19, 2008 - 12:19am PT
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You ever lead bolt with a power drill? Pretty sporty I thought, either carrying the lunker or hauling it up in precarious positions. Did not like falling with that thing.
Ken
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Loomis
climber
o(>_
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Sep 19, 2008 - 03:59am PT
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deuce4: Glad to read your Excellent Solution™ involved a Bosch™ product.
Scott
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bware
climber
a short drive from the way new place
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Sep 19, 2008 - 08:19pm PT
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I ponied up for a power drill about a year ago, the new 24V DeWalt DC223KA, based on recommendations from a couple of cheapskates like me. List is $550 or so, I picked mine up off eBay for $350 including shipping and two batteries. Musta fell off a truck. It's been a champ. It works about the same as the Hilti and Bosch as far as we can tell. It's got maybe 100-150 holes on it, including that hard as iron NJC rock and is still plugging away.
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Sep 19, 2008 - 11:29pm PT
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I have the Hilti TE-36A and love it... except for the fact that its waaay too heavy.
wish I had the new 18 volt Hilti because its light and will drill a ton of holes and only weighs 6 pounds. That's the way to go.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Apr 26, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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I figured I would resurrect this thread because it has been a few years. Any new drills that are the new standard? Lighter? Longer battery life? Whats new in power drilling?
Yes, I am crossing over to the dark side....
Jason
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Apr 26, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
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Looks good!
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J. Werlin
Social climber
Cedaredge, CO
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Apr 26, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
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On the lighter side . . .
I've been quite happy with this light weight Makita. I already had a charger and batteries, as own own a few different makita cordless tools for work, so that was part of why I bought it. (Also, the makita cordless drills at work have outlasted Bosch, Miluakee, Hitachi and Porter Cable.) I drilled about 14 3/8x4" holes in some volcanic igneous rock before batt. death.. Haven't maxed it out on granite yet, but it has plenty of guts.
picked mine up on ebay.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Apr 26, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
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Are you bringing it when you come to visit Jeremy? ;)
Seems like a pretty good deal.
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