POLL: should political ranting be allowed on the SuperTopo forum?

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Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 20, 2004 - 01:12pm PT

i'm starting to get more and more emails from folks saying "it's getting annoying to find rock climbing info amidst all the political rants"

now, i am all for political discourse. but there are a lot of places you can do that other than supertopo. i can see how it might be nice to keep supertopo a place just for climbing beta.

on the other hand, i hate moderating or sensoring anything. mainly because it just takes away from my climbing time.

so, what y'all think? should supertopo just be for climbing beta?

or maybe all the political rants will simmer down after the elections?

NeverSurfaced

Trad climber

Someplace F*#ked!

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:18pm PT

Let the people police themselves, lest the impoverished of ST land start referring to you as a “Tool”. You’ve created a monster you cannot destroy!

Greg Barnes

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:33pm PT

Sure, leave it, it's not worth the effort to try to censor anything.

TW#T

Gym climber

san diego, ca

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:43pm PT

Well if you want to call this place a forum then you must allow any topic to be discussed. By definition a forum is a public facility to meet for open discussion. Its up to you in the end...I prefer to keep it a climbing / spray related website, but we then cant call it a supertopo forum.

can't say

Social climber

Pasadena CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:44pm PT

I agree that self policing maybe the best way to do it (even if I am guilty of said political sins) But I also think sites like this that provide a forum for its members to post on, should not use censorship except in extreme cases. That being said, perhaps a separate forum for political spray etc. like Summitpost, rc.com and many others have on their sites.

Forest

Trad climber

Tucson, AZ

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:45pm PT

So far, the political stuff seems to mostly be staying in well-marked threads, so I don't really care that much. If it were to start hijacking too many actual climbing threads, that would be obnoxious.

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:45pm PT

i would think the political banter will slow down a lot after the election cycle, but whatever you decide, be careful that you don't set yourself up for some sort of slippery slope, you may end up having to police all sorts of things...

maybe you should just outlaw ST users from sending you whining emails about anything at all!

Flash

Ice climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:46pm PT

Ban Matt and the political threads will stop being started, that will take care of most of your problem. I just jump into threads taht were started by someone else.

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:57pm PT

What he said ^^^^

atchafalaya

Trad climber

California

Oct 20, 2004 - 01:57pm PT

All subjects should remain open for debate on ST, ban censorship...

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:03pm PT

i think you should ban the practice of setting up a bogus email address in order to register on ST, then spraying and offending as often as possible while not standing there to back it up- coiler keeps telling the world that climbing is dangerous, so why is there so much spineless behavior by these 'climbers' on ST?

flash?
care to comment, tough guy?

Apocalypsenow

Trad climber

Cali

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:03pm PT

I agree with Forrest, Chris. The day I start clicking on topics that are untrue, I would FULLY support censorship. My computer is too damn slow to deal with that.

climber

NOT Fresno

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:05pm PT

Watch out Mac, you'll become the SouperTopo Nazi. Get out of my forum! No topo for you!

Seriously, tell the whiners to shut up, not the posters. We're not running a cable show here. If you have a problem with the programming, open your mouth and post something else. Don't whine to teacher.

BTW Matt's right, come Nov. 3 it will all go away. If Bush wins,, most of us will have hanged ourselves. (Predictable Nazi reply: Good! Hee hee!)

Now I'm gonna hijack this thread: Bush is a dumbf*#k and a mass murderer and Flash dropped out of the eighth grade.

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:16pm PT

yo- i like it!

say, FRATrad and flush, why don't we 3 put our money where our mouths are?

i will pledge not to ever post on ST under any name for at least one year, starting on the day the next president is sworn in, if that president is george w. bush, so long as both of you do the same if john kerry wins- DEAL?

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:23pm PT

FOUR MORE WARS$$$$$$$$FOUR MORE WARS$$$$$$$$$$$$$FOUR MORE WARS$$$$$$$$$$$FOUR MORE WARS$$$$$$$FOUR MORE WARS$$$$$$$$$$$

Wade Icey

Social climber

the EPC

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:24pm PT

"on the other hand, i hate moderating or sensoring anything. mainly because it just takes away from my climbing time. "

seems you've answered your own question.

If you start filtering political threads people will just use climbing related topics to slander, name call and argue...oh wait, they already do. Might as well go climbing.

takes all kinds,
wade

Bilbo

Trad climber

Truckee

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:45pm PT

Censorship?? No Way!! Thats what makes this site the best for open discussion AMONG CLIMBERS. The discussion may be away from climbing but all the people are CLIMBERS!! So essentially we always are on topic.
I want to hand it to you Chris, this site setup is awesome, the forum is even better, it is the easiest one to navigate and find the topic your interested in. Go to any other other site with forum and get lost in the catagories, subcatagories, whats the difference between trad or sport or bouldering when your talking about random things? You want beta? Go to beta? You don't like a topic? Such as: Bush is a moron!!! Who making you read??? Go back in time and bring up an old "more climbing related topic or like others said, Start one yourself, if your sick of the politics, this is just a computer campfire, lets here what you climbers have to say, I will never allow censorship in my camp, and any censorship will mean I will have to ban supertopo and just copy my friends books.

Irisharehere

Trad climber

Gunks

Oct 20, 2004 - 02:50pm PT

If the forum software allows it, have seperate sections, for rock climbing, ice, and an "anything goes" section, where people can discuss politics, war, the environment, Avril Lavigne etc etc.

Better than having heavy moderation, in my opinion. Topics that turn political can just be moved. I'm not in favour of banning or censoring people

Irish

Melissa

Big Wall climber

oakland, ca

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:00pm PT

Chris,

Would it be too big of a hassle to have a climbing section and a seperate everything else section?

I'm not into censorship, but I also understand that you're running a business, and having your business site full of political rants is probably not helping you to sell guidebooks.

jacs

climber

Colorado

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:10pm PT

Yes... yes, it should be allowed.

Seperate "climbing" and "everything else" section won't help sell guidebooks either. I highly doubt that an occasional political thread (2 of 25 threads on the current front page) keeps people away from the site, The part that I imagine does help with sales, the "Route beta" section, is seperate anyway.

climber

NOT Fresno

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:24pm PT

Avril Lavigne, now we're talking. I much prefer the old skanky eye shadow type to the newer marketing move, but that's just me.

And I was wondering the other day if Kevin Federline wasn't a climber. Dude's definitely a dirtbag with no prospects, doesn't shave much, but he's got a new sugar mama now, don't he?

Look at all we have to talk about!

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:29pm PT

FRATguy-
you have just proven my point. you are spineless, just exactly like the group of chickenhawks that you support.

i have no idea how someone who ever climbed in EBs could now have morphed into a supporter of the worst environmental administration EVER, but since it's not due to any of these issues you seem to think we have in common, i can only assume that you must have gotten some kinda sweet walnut creek tax breaks to help you rationalize it all...

don't worry, your grandkids don't mind paying for all of this garbage!
how do you even sleep at night?
sheesh...

maculated

Trad climber

San Luis Obispo, CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:29pm PT

You're right, the political threads will hopefully simmer down.

That said, quit being such a nice guy and just tell the whiners to shut up. :)

dufas

Trad climber

san francisco

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:30pm PT

Political discussion is just an extension of campfire, car trip and belay ledge arguments. Consider this cross-fire for climbers. Obviously most enjoy it based on the number of responses and issues raised and the verve with which people stay with it. I'd vote to leave it, it is entertaining.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:41pm PT

I thought it would be useful to repost something I wrote in the[url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=44110&f=75&b=0"] Question For Matt[/url]
thread -- it's as relevant as ever...

---------------------------------------------

{Oct 1st 2004}
Finally, I never understood why people would want to carry on political dialogs
with a group of climbers, on a climbing-specific forum.

For those of you who think posting political stuff to a group of climbers
is a good idea, there's a much, much better place do do that.
It's the Community forum on Rockclimbing.com.
As of this morning, there are already dozens of posts about the debate last night,
all of them made by climbers. You will reach a vastly larger number
of climbers--on an order of magnitude. Check it out. Way more bang for the buck!

Personally, I would recommend checking out Usenet. Learning how to use
a newsreader program isn't all that difficult, and is what we had to use before
Gore invented the internet.

It is still a vastly superior medium than any Web-based forum;
you need to use it to see what I mean.

Here are some groups I found, using just the keyword Politics:

alt.politics
alt.politics.bush
alt.politics.economics
alt.politics.elections
alt.politics.gw-bush
alt.politics.immigration
alt.politics.liberalism
alt.politics.media
alt.politics.radical-left
alt.politics.republicans
alt.politics.socialism
alt.politics.socialism.democratic
alt.politics.socialism.libertarian
alt.politics.usa
alt.politics.usa.constitution
alt.politics.usa.constitution.gun-rights
alt.politics.usa.republican
soc.politics
talk.politics.guns
talk.politics.libertarian
talk.politics.mideast
talk.politics.misc
talk.politics.theory
us.politics
us.politics.elections
wash.politics

There are probably thousands more...

If this is all too complicated for those of you who think programing a VCR
is akin to rocket-science, you can always read Usenet using the Google Groups
interface. I must warn you--and Dingus will attest--that using web-based Google
instead of a newsreader is like driving a golf cart on a race-track instead of
a Lamborghini Diablo, or getting a massage in a wetsuit instead of being nude.

Try it, you'll like it!

(To Matt:)
Nobody is telling anyone what they should or shouldn't post.
I'm merely making a suggestion--as a user of this forum.
There are so many much-better, on topic venues specifically for politics,
where you truly won't be preaching to the same small group. (choir?)
You will get a much more diverse opinion form all over the world.
This is a climbing specific forum with an emphasis on Yosemite.
Can't we have 1 cool place where we can get away from politics for a while?
Broaden your horizons dude, and let us shallow-types have our little playpen!
{end Oct 1st post}
-----------------------------------------

I would like to add that those who insist on posting off-topic political stuff
are the very definition of intolerance--they are presumptuous enough to decree
that we should talk politics--and to hell what anyone thinks. Never mind that
rockclimbing.com has a Community forum with much, much more traffic and various
political issues being discussed. I will ask again: is it really too much to ask to
have one place where we can get away from the tedium of political stuff?
Is it too much to ask to talk about climbing on a climbing forum?

Hardman Knott

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Oct 20, 2004 - 03:58pm PT

Politics will probably settle down as soon as the election is over, well, maybe a few months afterwards...

Or maybe when we're out of Iraq...

at least until the next war.

If it bugs folks, having off-topic and on-topic sections is a better solution than censorship.

I'd like to be able to talk politics, bowel movements, girls, bolts, and whatever. Each internet "community" is it's own group and acting like a community (dealing with each other, hashing things out, and discussing anything) keeps folks coming back and making other contributions to the site. So in the end, it's all good for Chris as long as it's not an obscene, rude scene.

Peace

karl

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:18pm PT

I agree that censorship is knott the answer -- censorship sucks.
With that said, there are a lot of us here who would rather not see
political posts on this Climbing Forum. So with this in mind, continuing to
post off topic political posts on this Climbing Forum is to disrespect the wishes
of other users -- who would prefer to read climbing posts on this Climbing Forum

On Usenet there are several groups I subscribe to. One of them is rec.autos.tech.
Maybe I should start posting questions and rants here about the advantages/disadvantages
of throttle-body injection vs multi-point, or detailed "trip reports" (with photos)
of my adventures such as replacing my fuel-pump for the first time, which included
draining and removing the fuel-tank, or replacing my front crankshaft seal...

Another group is alt.true-crime. Should I post articles here on various news-worthy stories,
along with my opinion on how the Scott Peterson case is going?

Instead of sci.geo.satellite-nav, should I post here about the ramifications of
Selective Availability being deactivated--from a national security vs Joe Public perspective?

How about posting here instead of comp.sys.mac.system about Mac OS 10.3.5?
Since almost all of you are using windows/Linux/Unix, I'm sure you would find
such discussion really compelling...

Are we starting to get the picture?

Bilbo

Trad climber

Truckee

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:30pm PT

HM- Why don't you think politics has anything to do with climbing? I think it does? What about the heads of the NPS? Are they not put in place through a political process? Shouldn't we vote for pro-climber administrations as well as pro-environment admin's to keep climbing going instead of being outlawed?
Ofcourse there are other sites for political forums but do they have the same interests and concerns as climbers?
Just a thought-

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:37pm PT

And if that's the case, and you are trying to effect change--which of course I support--
why not do it on the site that boasts 50,000 hits a day, where you will reach a vastly
larger number of climbers?

It is very important to add that everyone who wades into that Community Forum
goes in there wanting to read that sort of stuff.
You'll be much more warmly received by a titanically larger audience...

You really should check it out!

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:50pm PT

Hey Matt, my post above came up twice. When I deleted the earlier one,
(the one you were responding to)
yours somehow got dumped as well. This has happened before--there appears
to be a bug somewhere. Please repost--I was about to respond and then I saw it was gone.

In the meantime, I'll let Chris know.

Dave

can't say

Social climber

Pasadena CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:51pm PT

HK, while you don't seem to think off topics are appropriate on this forum, I do. I am a climber and while I do enjoy climbing threads as much as the next person, I also have had many of those same conversations time and time again. So the redundant nature leaves me non-plussed.

But since one part of who I am is a climber, and I enjoy the company and conversations with the same people, why shouldn't I be able to engage them in topics not specifically climbing related. Some of the people on here are old friends I rarely get to see in person anymore and being able chat, flame and chortle with them here makes my day that much more enjoyable.

It's like my cycling friends, when we go riding, we rarely talk about bikes or cycling etc. since, like I said before, we have had those conversations time and again.

But that's me

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:57pm PT

well that tears it-
if dave gets to delete my posts, i am switching to usenet!

David

Trad climber

San Rafael, CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 04:57pm PT

I'm with Melissa. I think that perhaps we simply need to break the forum in to at least two directories with "climbing" realted subjects positioned prominently at the top of the page. It would be an imperfect solution because people would have to be trusted to post in the appropriate area but I think most would.

Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2004 - 05:03pm PT

well, as i suspected, moderating anything here would be very unpopular. not to mention time consuming. and just not fun. and there is too much stuff to climb!

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:06pm PT

David wrote:

I'm with Melissa. I think that perhaps we simply need to break the forum in to at least two directories with "climbing" realted subjects positioned prominently at the top of the page. It would be an imperfect solution because people would have to be trusted to post in the appropriate area but I think most would.

Yeah, but then someone would have to weed-out and delete the political posts
that guys like Matt would surely make in the Climbing Section--in order to continue to annoy us.

Then there would be cries of "censorship!" and "Nazi Mods"--just like Rockclimbing.com...

As PTPP would say, there's gotta be a better way...

David

Trad climber

San Rafael, CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:09pm PT

I'm talking about self moderation. When starting a thread you simply click a radio button to tag your thread as either "Climbing" or "Gutter". It will automatically show up in the right place. A bit of admin moderating once a month or so should clean up the rest.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:14pm PT

But if you have some clowns deliberately posting political stuff in the climbing
section, (which I think is highly likely) it would require constant baby-sitting,
and wouldn't be much different that what we have now...

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:19pm PT

Matt wrote:

well that tears it-
if dave gets to delete my posts, i am switching to usenet!

I would be bummed to see you go.

After all, every forum needs its class-clown...

David

Trad climber

San Rafael, CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:24pm PT

"But if you have some clowns deliberately posting political stuff in the climbing
section, (which I think is highly likely) "

Ya think? I figured most would play by the rules but perhaps I'm dreaming.

dirtbag

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:29pm PT

Speaking of polls

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:32pm PT

Hey david, let's bet a beer on it.

Better yet, let's just convince the clowns to knock it off! ;-)

Trad climber

Berkeley, CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:37pm PT

I think it would be a bad idea to start creating different subject categories for posts by subject. There is a never ending source of controversy about what goes where at RC.com, and one of the reasons I stay away from that site. The forum here is nice and simple, let's keep it that way. Self-moderation be damned, if you don't want to read political threads...Don't open them!!

Yes, political commentary does tend to leak into other threads, but so does libelous slander and name calling, nobody really complains about that. Supertopo is not RC.com, let's not start down the slippery slope of moderation and labeling. I vote to keep our imperfect online community the way it is, imperfect. I'm sure the political commentary will dissipate after the election

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:39pm PT

OK, here's what is going to happen to anyone posting political stuff from now on...

Better watch out!

Flash

Ice climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 05:44pm PT

People from the other side of the tracks might enjoy that HK...not much of a deterrent for them.

TW#T

Gym climber

san diego, ca

Oct 20, 2004 - 06:06pm PT

ahahahahhahaha I love it Chris, you've started a new political thread, guess you really can't do anything.

jclimb

Trad climber

Durango, Co

Oct 20, 2004 - 07:41pm PT

that beer butt chicken is some good shite
j

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Oct 20, 2004 - 09:32pm PT

I think it is not worth the time to moderate... I agree with the sentiment that it will die down in about a month or two. And it's the reader's choice whether or not to read and/or participate in the discussions.

Go out and climb! and then come back and post about the climbs!!

Matt

climber

Oct 20, 2004 - 11:14pm PT

sompe people think it's those who post about politics that are clowns, while others might argue it's really those who can clearly identify 'off topic' threads, and yet fail to ignore those threads, and even argue that these topics somehow offend, confuse, distract, or otherwise obstruct them in their search for something to read or post about...

so if this stuff is so problematic for some people, why on earth are their posts so pervasive in the very threads that they constantly complain about?

ironic, in this (hopefully ending) age of the george bushes, that there can be such a dramatic logical disconnection...

EDIT
can someone 'splain to me why they would need their own special 'non-political' section, since the political threads are so easy ti ID from their titles?

you goofballs are all gonna read them and throw your 2 cents in, just like you do now! so what the heck is all the whining really about, anyway? i think it's just the out-numbered republicans getting weary of hearing their head chimp getting ridiculed relentlessly, as he well deserves to be!
=)

Flash

Ice climber

Oct 21, 2004 - 12:11am PT

I agree with Matt's last post.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 21, 2004 - 01:09am PT

You agree with Matt?

WTF?

10b4me

Trad climber

Where Fair Oaks meets Altadena

Oct 21, 2004 - 01:28am PT

Chris,

Would it be too big of a hassle to have a climbing section and a seperate everything else section?

Chris, I agree. maybe make a forum for non-climbing topics

Holdplease2

Trad climber

All over

Oct 21, 2004 - 03:48am PT

I have no problem with a little political discourse and tend to learn a bit from it.

However, the current volume is frustrating, particularly when a small portion of the ST community is responsible for most of the post volume. More frustrating than tons of politics on the front page is thread hijacking within climbing posts.

A separate forum will not solve that problem.

As a relatively small community, I think that a little consideration of the wishes of the community as a whole could go a long way...and prevent/eliminate any need/desire for censorship or even change to a multi-forum system.

This multi-forum system would work to the disadvantage of the political zealots, as it would make those of us who they are trying to influence better able to avoiding their writing.

And heck, I like to see a variety of posts on the front page...humor, politics, climbing, banter between friends...if everything but climbing were eliminated it would be, um, dull.

Just my 2 cents.

-Kate.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 21, 2004 - 09:28am PT

Holdplease2 wrote:

However, the current volume is frustrating, particularly when a small portion of the ST community is responsible for most of the post volume. More frustrating than tons of politics on the front page is thread hijacking within climbing posts.

Truer words have knott been spoken. It is a very small minority of posters;
one person in particular comes to mind...

I'll leave you folks to hash it out -- I'm going climbing!

mtndncr

Trad climber

Berkeley

Oct 21, 2004 - 06:32pm PT

Chris,
I didn't have time to read all the posts connected to this, but wanted to let you know that you are probably correct that after November 2nd, the political rhetoric will go away.
Here's how it is: this election is the most important event in our life time! I think it is necessary for people to talk about these issues in any forum, especially Supertopos and people who have never voted in there life are voting this year because it's an exceptional year. In some ways, I think you should be proud that it is being talked about on your site. The problem isn't the subject, the problem is the lack of respect and knowledge.

I've dedicated 15 years of my life to non-profit environmental work and this election and it's connection to climbing and the envirionment, is more defined than ever. You have one guy, that a lot of people hate, who has the worst environmental record ever by any President, AND THAT'S FACT! And than his opponent, who has an EXCELLENT Enviro record, gets an A+ rating by the League of Conservation Voters and an endorsement by the Sierra Club. So, I think sensoring is a bad idea, but I also understand the frustration. Personally, I think you should sensor all the idiots and let mature adults talk about climbing and anything and everything related to it!
Cheers,
Bill W.

TW#T

Gym climber

san diego, ca

Oct 21, 2004 - 06:57pm PT

yo bro, great post but censor is spelled with a "c" not sensor like the razor blade.

David Nelson

climber

San Francisco

Oct 21, 2004 - 08:48pm PT

Active censorship will take too much of your precious time, but passive may do the trick. I get tired of reading political BS on the site, I want to read about climbing. I think you could email political posters and ask them to keep it off the site. You do own the site and pay the bills.

However, the site now also "belongs", in one sense, to the community of users. I must admit I am surprised how many people are willing to tolerate the BS even though it gets in the way of real beta. Unfortunately, if a large portion want political BS, it probably belongs. A separate section would be nice but probably not practical: the posters will put it on the climbing part.

The anarchy of the net is its strength and its weakness.

Flash

Ice climber

Oct 21, 2004 - 09:07pm PT

"you are probably correct that after November 2nd, the political rhetoric will go away."

You folks couldn't be more wrong. When Bush wins...the liberals(most everbody on this site) will bitch about everything he does.

"You have one guy, that a lot of people hate, who has the worst environmental record ever by any President, AND THAT'S FACT!"

So how do you determine fact? By the agenda of the envrionmentalist kookburger crowd? Or by sound science combined with the needs of humans? Why the "hate"? The left is supposed to be tolerant and loving and kind, yet I have never seen hate for someone like the left has been spewing at theis fine President.

" Personally, I think you should sensor all the idiots "

And I suppose the "idiots" would be anyone that doesn't agree with your agenda?

handjamdrum

Trad climber

Madison, WI

Oct 22, 2004 - 12:03am PT

just ban all talk regarding anything but climbing. that way you'll have very little at all to monitor, except the quality of the climbing beta, and you, as well as the rest of us, will have more time to devote to climbing. maybe then we'll all try harder on our next climb because of all the pent up angst we feel regarding this deeply divided country we are citizens of...

lead on...

Michelle

Gym climber

Marklar

Oct 22, 2004 - 02:56am PT

Well SuperFuzz, I guess you should ban any conversation about bolts, chopping and anything including "RETRO" in its title, now, shouldn't you? wait, unless you meant censoring only certain kinds of political discussions.

Sorry Minerals, coiler, no more posting for you. TW#T, your self serving, sexist slander totally suits the intimate atmosphere around here and everyone loves Donny/Donnie/Paco/Pete/Jody. That little bit of love between Russ and CF warms my heart like a hot can of OE after a couple of laps at the sporto crag; oh, and how could I forget my all time favorite climbing quote from this site-

"The summer heat has brought out a new and disturbing trend here in the High Desert... and elsewhere I'd assume. I'm talking about young and not so shapely ladies running the mound hugging pants, shortie shirt with a bad slogan on it (like "porn star"), a couple of muddy prison worthy tatoos, and a GIANT AWNING-LIKE BEER GUT hanging out!!! WTF is this trend? Do they get up in the morning and say "man, this will look gooood"?

I'm really feeling the love now. This enhances my climbing experience n^(n+1) [n = or > 1]. nothing personal, but go commando once in a while Chris, it can improve your personal sense of freedom. If you're worried about sales, by all means appease the complainers because the people that steal the books don't f*#king care.

if we didn't have differing opinions, we would all be gym climbers.

the Fet

Trad climber

Loomis, CA

Oct 22, 2004 - 10:15am PT

I like the freedom and variety of this board, I vote keep it as is.

The political posts in climbing threads should just be discouraged by other posters.

Don't waste your time and energy. You've created a fanstastic forum here, that's enough.

Demented

climber

Oct 22, 2004 - 11:42am PT

Hey Michelle-

“The summer heat has brought out a new and disturbing trend here in the High Desert... and elsewhere I'd assume. I'm talking about young and not so shapely ladies running the mound hugging pants, shortie shirt with a bad slogan on it (like "porn star"), a couple of muddy prison worthy tatoos, and a GIANT AWNING-LIKE BEER GUT hanging out!!! WTF is this trend? Do they get up in the morning and say "man, this will look gooood"? ….. is pretty funny. Thanks for reminding me .. .

Almost as good was bringmebeers' classic post “"bouldering chicks are pretty cool though. they have that mattress on their back...all you need to do is push them over and they're ready to go."

10b4me

Trad climber

Where Fair Oaks meets Altadena

Oct 22, 2004 - 06:50pm PT

if we didn't have differing opinions, we would all be gym climbers.

so true!

Flash

Ice climber

Oct 23, 2004 - 12:10am PT

Oh shit! We are being invaded by the rc.com crowd.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 23, 2004 - 12:20am PT

Probably because there aren't any Nanny-Mods to keep them in line?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Oct 23, 2004 - 03:33pm PT

4393 since Feb 2003 to be exact. That's gotta be the most posts in the shortest amount of time -- by a long shot.

No wonder he's all butt-hurt.

Flash

Ice climber

Oct 23, 2004 - 06:45pm PT

"No wonder he's all butt-hurt."

LOL!

Donny Quijote

Boulder climber

Boulder F'n CO

Oct 25, 2004 - 04:47pm PT

"...everyone loves Donny/Donnie/Paco/Pete/Jody."

Well...at least I still love me.

Roger Breedlove

Trad climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Oct 26, 2004 - 08:44am PT

Chris:

I notice that there is a lot of self and group censorship on ST. Eventually people move on, especially when someone posts a good trip report. Also, it is easy enough to skip to treads that one does not want to get riled up about.

Best, Roger

ps: Jody, are you a blockhead, or what?

TW#T

Gym climber

san diego, ca

Oct 26, 2004 - 12:02pm PT

Yo Michelle,
Great post - just kidding. your and you're are two totally different words. your denoting possession, and you're meaning you are. Try again CHIMP!.....back to taking online English classes for college credit

Michelle

Gym climber

Marklar

Nov 3, 2004 - 03:48pm PT

uh, TW#T, after careful review of my post, I have come to the conclusion that you are an idiot. However, even idiots can be right sometimes. unfortunately, this isn't one of those times for you. sorry dude. I may not have used appropriate punctuation. The quote should have read:

TW#T, your self-serving, sexist slander totally suits the intimate atmosphere around here and...

My apologies for the confusion.

Mungeclimber

Social climber

N. California

Nov 3, 2004 - 05:42pm PT

Search engine filter? Not sure how to implement given the similarity of language with

Bush is a tard.

And...

This climb was put up by a tard.

I lean toward leaving it alone. Post elections it will mellow out, or burn even brighter given the current administration has been relected; Tard!

Bucky

Trad climber

Knoxville, Tn

Nov 3, 2004 - 06:22pm PT

Why not have a seperate forum for other things besides climbing?

David Nelson

climber

San Francisco

Nov 13, 2004 - 01:43pm PT

Free expression is fine and dandy, but when the site becomes more of a place for childish rants than a place for climbing discussion, the membership will drift to a place with more climbing and less rants. This is a description of reality, not a wish for the future. The site owners have to decide what they want. After all, they are paying the bills and it is their creative product. Although site users like me contribute to the overall work product, and in some sense are "owners", the site is owned by the ones who created it and pay for it.

Editing all posts is too time consuming, and so is not practical. You can state the purpose of the site and acceptable posting practices. Killing threads that detract from the site's stated purpose is OK, as long as it is posted that that is what you are going to do. Denying posting priviledges to consistent violators may be required. When the community of users agrees with and supports a policy, it will work.

My personal preference: keep the rants down. A few friendly insults to fellow climbers is part of the scene. Purely personal attacks and posts on topics divorced from climbing should be avoided. Where to draw the line? Sometimes it is hard. Ecology is political but part of climbing.

But I think we all have seen too much political BS and personal hazing on this site, and are getting tired of it. It will happen that some will migrate to a site that has more climbing and less BS if it continues, merely out of a desire to spend our limited time learning about climbing, not out of a desire to squelch the free expression of opinion.

Mountain Man

Trad climber

Outer Space

Nov 15, 2004 - 12:59am PT

It seems the political talk is calming down, but personal attacks are hot . Freedom seems to be the best approach, unless people get stuck on disagreeable flaming.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Marin Hot Tub Country

Nov 16, 2004 - 11:32am PT

I agree 100%.

The last thing the world needs is more nanny-mods.

nature

climber

Flagstaff, AZ

Nov 16, 2004 - 06:17pm PT

Two categories

climbing
rants

nuf said

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Sep 26, 2006 - 01:05pm PT

I figured this would be a good time for a bump. I re-read my posts above from 2 years ago,
and I think they're as relevant as ever. The bottom line is that every time Chris has asked
people to post more climbing stuff, the focus––however briefly––would shift more on-topic.

I will say it again and again and again: It really is just a handful of people posting the vast
majority of OT stuff. And it would be much much easier in the long run to warn or ban
them than it would to create and manage a split forum.

Ouch!

climber

Sep 26, 2006 - 01:20pm PT

I have a hunch that much of the whining in e-mails is rooted in disgruntled political types.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Sep 26, 2006 - 01:25pm PT

The point is, he got "whining e-mails" from enough people two years ago to start this thread...

Patrick Sawyer

climber

Originally California now Ireland

Sep 26, 2006 - 02:25pm PT

Courteous political discourse yes, ranting NO.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Sep 26, 2006 - 02:31pm PT

Chris, leave it the way it is...it seems people police themselves pretty well. If people don't like the politics, they can choose to enter another forum topic.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Sep 26, 2006 - 02:58pm PT

chris,
you have graciously created this place for all to use as they see fit.

i would return any emails sent to you complaining about things with a great big

FECK U! IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT COME HERE!

is that all clear?

Teth

climber

Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Sep 26, 2006 - 03:20pm PT

Would it be possible to require a poster to click an on topic/off topic button when posting and then setup a filter? Default the filter to show everything, but have on/off option buttons for “Show Climbing Posts” and “Show non-Climbing Posts”. Then people interested in reading climbing posts can turn off the “Show non-Climbing Posts” option and be able to find the week old topics which would otherwise be buried ten pages down. Once they have read through the climbing posts, they can turn the non-climbing posts back on for a bit of entertainment.

If that won’t work, then I vote for splitting the forum into climbing and non climbing sections. I am not suggesting you get carried away like RC.com. Just keep it simple. It is either directly climbing related or it isn’t. It would not be painfully difficult for people who want to read that non-climbing stuff to click one extra button to move to the non-climbing section.

Teth

deuce4

Big Wall climber

the Southwest

Sep 26, 2006 - 03:29pm PT

How about a PHP script that nukes political posts on a random basis?

...with the requirement that political posts have to be prefaced with "POLITICAL".

But the interesting thing about Supertopo is that most of the political posts are by climbers, therefore they are kind of climber relevant.

Anyway, I never read them, myself. You are better off listening to Rush Limbaugh or watching Fox news if you are looking for a "this-is-what's-wrong-with-the-world-and-it's-all-their-fault" kind of fix.

At least fearmongering doesn't gather any credence on Supertopo (that's an encouraging sign).

deuce4

Big Wall climber

the Southwest

Sep 26, 2006 - 03:33pm PT

Hey, how about a vote system that transfers posts into other categories?

(just learning PHP scripting myself right now, so it all seems like an interesting challenge).

Matt

Trad climber

places you shouldn't talk about in polite company

Sep 26, 2006 - 03:45pm PT

yawn
(not intended at you directly, duece)

my opinion is that this whole forum ought to be nuked-
i'd guess out loud who would be most traumatized, but why bother picking fights on such a nice day out.

T Moses

Trad climber

Paso Robles

Sep 26, 2006 - 04:02pm PT

Didn't bother to read the thread. IMHO all political discussion here should be nuked. If I want politics I'll go look it up. I come here to read and discuss CLIMBING!

WoodySt

Trad climber

Riverside

Sep 26, 2006 - 07:06pm PT

Due to the cross section of political sentiments, professions and educational levels this site is, by far, the most interesting and enjoyable. Political sites are too ideologically driven, too narrow and too intolerant. Here, we can go at it with gusto.
I don't understand the desire to limit this site to only climbing: if you don't want to read non-climbing material, skip it. This site is able to fulfill all subject discussion very nicely. If it were limited to just climbing, you'd lose most of your traffic. There is nothing inhibiting the posting of climbing information on ST. I feel the real reason behind limiting the site has more to do with people that have no interest in politics etc.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Sep 26, 2006 - 07:24pm PT

Woodman writes: If it were limited to just climbing, you'd lose most of your traffic

And in a realist vein..... so what????? Is all the political talk and other crap selling guidebooks for CMack? How many ST Guides do you own Woody? As you run your BS threads and then wait for the skillet to get hot, do you click over to the Routes Database and add comments or are you hitting the Taco Store for a guidebook or download? Any of you politicos doing this? Maybe you are, as I ain't checking. But if you ain't.....

CMac pays for this sandbox and regardless of who is an arrogant prick and assshole (me), a pathetic troll (RimJob) or other deviant (numerous) at least buy some shiit from the man or help out with info in the database from time to time.

Locker style edit: I would love a killfile/ignore button. That would make it all nice and fluffy in my world.

LEB style edit: I need to add some more stuff to the database too..... but no TR's for you Queens unless it is the one on how I buggered Bill Clinton from behind at the DNC a few years back. (which he enjoyed immensely by the way) I'm just not into the TR effort for a 45 minute stint on the first page. Call me selfish.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Sep 26, 2006 - 08:03pm PT

For once I gotta go with Woody over Russ. Though I mostly avoid the political threads, when I do indulge, I like the melage.

I am an active climber and do own multiple ST guidebooks.

WBraun

climber

Sep 26, 2006 - 08:15pm PT

Awh fuk Russ I don't own any guide book, and I learned from all the political bullshit here how to become our next president of the USA.

I'm drafting your ass into the army when I become the white house man. Foot soldier you will be. Sargent Mussy, and you'll heve the rimmer in your platoon ..... hahahahaha

Oh man .........

wildone

climber

Isolated in El Portal and loving it

Sep 26, 2006 - 08:15pm PT

I also agree with woody, never thought I'd say that.
I guess you could assume that everyone who posts and DOESN'T email you, whining about politics, is a yes vote for politics AND climbing.

Russ Walling

Social climber

Out on the sand, Man.....

Sep 26, 2006 - 08:43pm PT

nutshell version/crystal ball version:

the Ideal:
Forum will bring people to Super Topo, a guidebook company, that exists for the purpose of selling a product.

People will blab on the forums and then buy guidebooks and tell their friends to come to the forum. Hopefully they will buy guidebooks too and tell more friends.

Famous people visit the forum and with them here, the forum can be featured in the SuperTopo newsletter, which will bring more people to the site and they will buy guidebooks.

People will share current route info in the database, which will make the next guidbook easier to produce and more accurate.... this info from the people is the give and take of hosting the forum... happy people = more info

random points:

political posts have not been featured in the newsletter, so they must not be as big a draw as climbing related stuff. People come here for the climbing content, not the poli/reli/OT stuff.

I've yet to hear anyone say " I wish there were more political post on the Taco....I'm leaving until there are less climbing posts on here." The flip side of that is I have heard MANY PEOPLE say they are either leaving or not visiting because there is too much political/religious/OT crap.

This is not a free speech zone. Chris pays for this. He can do what he wants (smokin nolens debacle), or do nothing. Cry all you want about being censored or not given a platform.... he is the Overlord. If you think the Nolens mess or all the poli/reli crap is selling books, I'd beg to differ.

Had some other stuff but the Dodgers are on (OT)

mark miller

Social climber

Reno

Sep 26, 2006 - 08:54pm PT

I own almost every ST guidebook and have done routes from all of them, except Alaska, This site is great and shows how diverse and strong willed climbers are. Free thinking individuals seldom get the leisure and luxury to express themselves as freely as they can within this ST forum, hope it remains that way and thankyou C. Mac...

deuce4

Big Wall climber

the Southwest

Sep 26, 2006 - 09:12pm PT

Hey Mussy-

How 'bout those Cubbies?

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

one pass away from the big ditch

Sep 27, 2006 - 12:48am PT

Is lois a climber yet?

Shack

Big Wall climber

Reno NV

Sep 27, 2006 - 01:07am PT

I'm with Russ on this...

Using the "virtual campfire" analogy here, I gotta tell you...
All of you people who come here to talk politics,
going on and on ad nausium, thinking that your raising important "issues" etc...

I have never once been around a campfire with friends, climbers or not, and thought, "Hey, let's talk about politics! That would be fun!"
Hell no! That would be the biggest buzzkill I could imagine!

Please...give it a rest people.

I definitely came to the Taco Stand for the climbing discussions...NOT the political BS.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion...
even if it's wrong!

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Sep 27, 2006 - 01:50am PT

god, has it been that long ago?!

I also stand by what I said....
...but I come here to discuss climbing and climbing related stuff.

I do own ST guides.
I do participate in off topic threads, especially about topics related science.
I very infrequently post to political threads, though I don't like ranting too much.
I do not look at threads that I consider a waste of time.

I try to post trip reports as much as possible and I'm a little bit chagrined that more people do not post there trips. Perhaps I spew too much, but I have no illusions of being an elite climber, I'm a weekender duffer... but I sure enjoy it when you all post up about climbing, past, present or future (well, ok, maybe not future, though I did not too long ago).

Chris pays for this site, and Chris gets to decide what goes on here, at least to some extent... I've always felt that it's his decision to make.

But by-and-large, SuperTopo Forum is a great creation as it is. I have read extensively on the written history of California (and Southwest) climbing, and nothing matches the breadth of what has shown up here. That alone would be a proud accomplishment, both of Chris' and the authors of the posts.

Bravo!

I'm all for continuing the success.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Sep 27, 2006 - 02:51am PT

UNLIKE a campfire, you can easily pick and choose what conversations you take part in. Personally I have been at plenty of campfires where political discussions have taken place, and we ALL have been at campfires where people go on and on and on about climbing ad nauseum til we're all sick of it.

Posts are like bolts baby! If you don't like em don't clip em!

Shack

Big Wall climber

Reno NV

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:08am PT

"Personally I have been at plenty of campfires where political discussions have taken place..."

You must roll with a fun crowd.

I've hung out with, partied with, climbed with, drank with,
at least a dozen people that post here and I don't think politics has ever come up...thankfully.

I don't mind a lot of the non-climbing related posts,
but when the majority of them are politics or religion,
I find that I don't even bother coming here very often,
because I know I haven't missed anything but a bunch of
arguing and name calling.

Standing Strong

Mountain climber

the trail

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:17am PT

i don't feel "safe" posting trip reports on this forum. there are too many toxic people now. i do sometimes write about climbing trips in my mypace blog, but i limit access to that - only people i trust and know are on my myspace friends list, and only people on my friends list can view my myspace page and blog.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

Arid-zona

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:39am PT

The majority of them aren't, and I have seen your name on more than a few Shack. Politics ARE fun, and typically a lot more fun than arguing over bolting ethics or what the best way to pack a pig is.

mcreel

climber

Barcelona, Spain

Sep 27, 2006 - 03:49am PT

Just add some advertisements to all the political threads. What's politics without money, anyway?

kubko

climber

Slovak Republic, Europe

Sep 27, 2006 - 06:24am PT

I have not read all the posts so this might have been already suggested:

Create a separate forum for junk threads. In the main forum have a radio button on the bottom of each forum page - "Relevant - leave it in the main forum" / "Junk - move it away". If sufficient majority wants the thread out of the main forum, there it goes - automatic group self-moderation.

WoodySt

Trad climber

Riverside

Sep 27, 2006 - 11:24am PT

One more point: many threads don't deal with climbing or politics. There are a plethora of topics discussed on ST that inform or are simply interesting.
It seems to me that a set of people find any topic other than climbing obnoxious. Are climbing threads restricted or limited due to the other threads? Of course not. Are you compelled to read non-climbing threads? No. Since when has it become a burden to scroll through the threads and select those that are of interest to you?
It seems to me that the real motive behind this effort is laziness or offense vis a vis the subjects discussed. "You" don't like discussion of politics or religion or medical, book discussion, personal problems etc. etc. "You" want the site restricted to only subjects "you" wish to discuss. That attitude is infantile.

Mr_T

Trad climber

Somewhere, CA

Sep 27, 2006 - 08:39pm PT

CATEGORIES:

CLIMBING

POLITICS

TRANSPORT

GEAR (incl. for sale)

ART/PICS

TRIP-REPORTS

overwatch

climber

Sep 7, 2015 - 10:37pm PT

Wouldn't miss them if they were gone but don't really care. I do well enough avoiding them or I will peruse one if I need a nap...

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Sep 7, 2015 - 10:41pm PT

Cathartic.

scooter

climber

fist clamp

Sep 7, 2015 - 10:49pm PT

Please no more political threads

The Chief

climber

Lurkerville east of Goldenville

Sep 7, 2015 - 10:53pm PT

Shetcan em all.... every single last one of em. Fking politard shetfests.

jonnyrig

climber

Sep 7, 2015 - 11:23pm PT

The community bumps what it finds important.
It's nice that you've separated the trip reports out to their own tab. Maybe add one more for climbing-only content. Or not.
Add one that says "Not Safe For Children". All the crap could go in there.

But then nobody here could actually post to it.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Sep 7, 2015 - 11:52pm PT

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Best idea ever! An

ON TOPIC

tab!!!

Delhi Dog

climber

Good Question...

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:12am PT

Weird.

I count 4 political threads on the front page out of 30.
Is that too much?
Most of the others are climbing related in some way.

It's pretty easy to ignore any if one so chooses.

I think the real issue is people reading stuff they don't want to read and then trying to blame others for their own lack of self-control when they read what they found they didn't want to read:-)

Ready for_? Uh, why would anyone click on those link when, simply by the title it is obvious what it will be about? And that's just one example.
I peruse what interests me. When it doesn't I move on. It ain't that hard to do.

My $0.02

patrick compton

Trad climber

van

Sep 8, 2015 - 04:51am PT

i think Chief should censor all political posts. He is a Chief after all.

As ST ages, less climbing and more armchair sound bite rants! yaya!

Blakey

Trad climber

Sierra Vista

Sep 8, 2015 - 04:58am PT

No, most of it is from folks with entrenched views who aren't
Going to have their views changed by discourse on here.

To me it's tedious clutter.

Steve

Charlie D.

Trad climber

Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra

Sep 8, 2015 - 05:13am PT

I rarely read them and don't really care as they show up just so long as there's good content worth reading about climbing, skiing, mountains or the environment.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Sep 8, 2015 - 06:45am PT

No on attempting to censor- it's impossible and

YES. on a separate Tab/Category so you can ignore it easier.

Sport climber

Sonora Ca

Sep 8, 2015 - 07:14am PT

There are many topics which become contentious, even climbing.

couchmaster

climber

Sep 8, 2015 - 07:33am PT

Since the question was asked in 2004, how long do we have to vote? I'm thinking I might like 10 more years before I make up my mind.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

Sep 8, 2015 - 07:34am PT

It's all very entertaining.

Hey let's not forget the religious threads either.

Very entertaining.

The fundamentalists along with their sympathizers can be a real hoot.

10b4me

Social climber

Sep 8, 2015 - 07:45am PT

This from 2004, and it's only gotten worse.

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Sep 8, 2015 - 07:59am PT

Climbing discussion: "Nice pictures, fine effort..."

Poltical rant: "What are you thinking? Your entire logic is flawed and reflects noting based in reality. Moron!..."

Climbing rant: "You cheated because you used binoculars to preview the route and you used better gear than I did in 1970..."

Don't want an argument, don't open the thread or let it get under you skin.

The political stuff is more entertaining and interactive than the climbing content...

I will add that the base of readers being climbers allows for a wide variety of opinions not found at other sites, it is indeed more like a campfire than a fight.

skcreidc

Social climber

SD, CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 08:34am PT

or maybe all the political rants will simmer down after the elections?

Hahahaha!!! THAT's the optimist in you speaking. I have mixed feelings about it. But one of the things that attracted me to this site is the "wild west" feel of the forum. Maybe having some direct search options to find climbing content could help.

edit; So that is a keep it in, with reservations.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 09:00am PT

So much butthurt - so little time. Make a separate Thin-skinned tab.

Sport climber

Sonora Ca

Sep 8, 2015 - 09:03am PT

If it's a campfire we used Piggy's glasses to start it.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Sep 8, 2015 - 09:59am PT

"No" on censorship. However....

The forum should have a perma-link at the top that leads to some online addiction support group. LOL

For some people here, some threads are like freebasing. These people are "in recovery," some even leave the Taco Stand entirely, but they just can't stay away. The lure of the dark side is strong. They try to resist, but....

They....

Just....

Can't....

Hold out....

So, resolve dwindling to nothing, they open that first politard thread, and, BAM! Months of recovery down the tubes!

Feelings of exhilaration and supremacy coursing through their veins, they post. Then post again. They fight. Then fight harder. Drunk with their sense of raw power and utter lack of accountability, they lash out, each moment losing a bit more control....

Yeah, some of these threads amount to slamming whisky and breathing in the face of a recovering alcoholic.

That said, drinking is legal.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Sep 8, 2015 - 10:01am PT

It would be a once a week site instead of a several times a day site without it. (and all the other nonsense)

It's a virtual campfire.

That's what makes it unique. Change that and it's just another on line guidebook.

peladob

Mountain climber

Mason City, Iowa

Sep 8, 2015 - 10:04am PT

there used to be a Virtual Campfire....

....ask Burchie

Gerg

Trad climber

Calgary

Sep 8, 2015 - 10:04am PT

Make a stand like Locker and I did!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2679905&tn=60

Jody and Chief take note.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Sep 8, 2015 - 10:19am PT

What happens when the angry ranters aren't allowed to post on the forum
[Click to View YouTube Video]

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

Sep 8, 2015 - 10:45am PT

^^^ So funny

Yup, like freebasing withdrawal.

Good thing the kid isn't the age of some here, or he'd have blown a gasket.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 11:55am PT

Good point about the "several times a day" nature of the current forum. Besides, those easily offended by all the political ranting on ST. but incapable of using the tabs to select the climbing-relevant topics, probably don't represent the demographic advertisers want to reach anyway.

;>)

John

The Chief

climber

Lurkerville east of Goldenville

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:15pm PT

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:18pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Norton

Social climber

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:19pm PT

John

I sent you an email and it came back undeliverable

can you confirm your email to me?

John

you have mine so send me another one?

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:28pm PT

Will do, John. I was looking for one from you when I finally got around to checking this morning.

John

P.S. Email sent.

skitch

Gym climber

Bend Or

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:38pm PT

The best solution is to break the forum into sub forums, like every other forum does. Then you can have one specifically for the political wingbats.

Maybe the easiest thing would be to have the forum tabs link directly to mountain project.

Cragar

climber

MSLA - MT

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:54pm PT

They do not bother me and I say let the folks rant that are into that sort of thing. I skim those threads and have learned a fair bit from folks on all sides of the octagon. I have posted a couple times but rarely do I see anything that I can contribute to or care to. I just don't do the internet debate/chest beating shitaqua thing going on. I say allow it and for folks that don't then they can just have enough self control to not click.

DrDeeg

Mountain climber

Mammoth Lakes, CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:55pm PT

Chris et al. Censoring goes against most of our principles, and it would consume time and would be hard to implement.

A slightly different suggestion is to remove anonymity. Many newspapers do this in their Letters-to-the-Editor sections. We can still use our handles, but you could make the actual identities and emails discoverable by following the link to the handle, just like we can do now to see other posts by the same person. You could then delete accounts of people who are shown to be not who they say they are.

Some people already post under their real names, e.g. Ed Hartouni. Some post material that identifies them, e.g. guido. But others do hide behind anonymity and post offensive material, e.g. your nomination.

DrDeeg, aka Jeff Dozier, dozier@bren.ucsb.edu

(Years ago, students introduced me to the word "deeg" = degenerate, and can be used as a noun (you're a deeg), a verb (let's buy a six and deeg at the meadow), or an adjective (let's go sit on the deeg bench at the beach and watch the women).

Norton

Social climber

Sep 8, 2015 - 12:56pm PT

John E
It says your email is over quota and as such cannot be delivered.

Have another email?

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Sep 8, 2015 - 03:37pm PT

DMT wrote in:

How many times must we discuss classic valley moderates (again)?

As usual, he's gone to the nubbin of discourse: if we're "allowed" to diss the politics, let's aim for the whackos and radicals. The namby-pamby middle-of-the-road viewpoint is totally wasted here.

In fact, that gives me an idea for a thread!

John Duffield

Mountain climber

New York

Sep 8, 2015 - 04:27pm PT

Chris, maybe you should ban all the politards for 30 days as a test. See what it does to your total revenue volume.
You have to ask yourself, if the revenue is mostly from advertising or mostly from selling guidebooks?
I'm guessing, your revenue will fall. But I don't know.

scooter

climber

fist clamp

Sep 8, 2015 - 04:33pm PT

C-Mac- Why not start a politcs of outdoor people website? Sell adverts on it. Have links to both websites. Double your advert dollars.

David Plotnikoff

Mountain climber

Emerald Hills, CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 06:37pm PT

I seem to recall this has come up at least once or twice before. I'll offer my modest suggestion again: Instead of any top-down control, put that control in the individual user's hands with a decent filtering tool. Two functions: "mark this thread as read/junk" and "mark this user as (an off-topic crank), etc." Every Usenet newsreader client has had this functionality for at least 20 years.

This would accomplish a couple things: 1) Eliminate any need to censor or filter for the entire ST user base. 2) Place the responsibility on the individual to decide what he or she wants to see or not see.

looks easy from here

climber

Ben Lomond, CA

Sep 8, 2015 - 06:40pm PT

Or a "Hide Thread" button...

Contractor

Boulder climber

Sep 8, 2015 - 07:50pm PT

You call it a "Climb-ER'S Forum"-thus, you have implied that it's a forum, occupied by climbers, about unspecified topics (dangerous).

If you had called it a "Climb-ING" Forum"- You would have implied that it's a forum, for unspecified people, discussing the topic of climbing (you can get that anywhere).

Any open platform will always digress to politics and religion, regardless. It's organic, just go with it.

But PLEASE- let's draw the line at, offers of a nice, gentle, ball cupping for this or that.

thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Sep 8, 2015 - 08:07pm PT

The Chief

climber

Lurkerville east of Goldenville

Sep 8, 2015 - 09:09pm PT

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Very simple way to remedy that.... Grow a pair and start climbing 5.6 or greater routes.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Ontario, Canada, eh?

Sep 9, 2015 - 08:34am PT

Chris Mac - yes, but in its own section.

Divide the forum into two places: Climbing Stuff, Non-Climbing Stuff

I would happily help you move the posts.

zBrown

Ice climber

Oct 13, 2016 - 08:55pm PT

What was the scripting for filtering ST?

Who wrote it?

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Oct 13, 2016 - 09:03pm PT

nature knows it, ask him.

EDIT: nature knows the ones that filters users you view. You may be talking about original ST code.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Oct 13, 2016 - 09:06pm PT

Greasemonkey?

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 13, 2016 - 10:56pm PT

Thick skin, and a little self-restraint.

chainsaw

Trad climber

Oct 13, 2016 - 11:38pm PT

Bilbo you are right on. Its great when climbers talk politics. Climbers are strong. Climbers have balls. Or they are ballsmashers! I love the ranting and raving. People on taco have mutual respect, mostly. But most importantly, we are a brave people. Im always interested in what brave, strong people have to say. And look how many hits the political threads get...

Rankin

Social climber

Winston-Salem, North Carolina

Oct 14, 2016 - 07:41am PT

No. I'd like to see the political stuff gone. I want to discuss climbing and those topics poison the well of discourse generally.

Chewybacca

Trad climber

Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT

Oct 14, 2016 - 08:05am PT

I say let the politards enjoy themselves. It is my choice which threads I click on an which threads I ignore.

zBrown

Ice climber

Oct 14, 2016 - 08:31am PT

Thanks for filtering info.

I found this, written a while back (by me)

"Bump the threads you like. Ask your associates to do the same."

From nature

"Run greasemonkey and kill the threads you don't like."

Now what will it take to do by poster not by thread?

10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired

Oct 14, 2016 - 08:39am PT

It absolutely should not be allowed. I get tired of it.

-5

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Oct 14, 2016 - 10:52am PT

Voluntary rules of conduct. In no particular order.

Polite Company rule. (PC)
Never discuss politics or religion in polite company. Keep it in the box. Compartmentalize the offensive topics to their threads. Each thread is a different campfire.

Dunning-Kruger Effect (DK)
: The Stupid do not know that they are stupid.

Godwin's Law (GL) also (argumentum ad Nazium or reductio ad Hitlerum)
: If you start comparing unrelated stuff to Nazis or Hitler, you lose.

Semper Farcisimus (SF)
: Lighten up. You might be wrong.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Oct 14, 2016 - 12:03pm PT

I participate in some professional forums that are highly moderated. People discuss the items of interest that the forum is designed to accommodate. There is no trolling, no insulting, general civility, and ongoing interest and participation. These forums make it clear that it is certainly possible to have narrowly-focused interest groups that remain vital to their participants.

So if SuperTopo cannot succeed with that model, it is not because success is impossible, but because the audience and administration are not capable of creating an environment in which climbing and related outdoor-focused discussions are of sufficient interest by themselves to support the endeavor.

At the administrative end, moderation is required if the discussion is going to be directed things the site claims are its purpose. People like to call such moderation censorship, but that adds a tone of liberty denied that seems bogus to me. If you systematically block opinions of a certain sort, the claim of censorship makes some sense. But if you simply block topics as not appropriate to the site, that is simply maintaining what the site is supposed to be about. A periodic finger-wagging post is not going to do the trick, and at the end of the day CM has to decide what type of show he wants to be putting on.

At the audience end, there are obviously many aging climbers here whose interest in climbing per se is modest at best. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but such an audience is unlikely to be interested in or receptive to the brimming enthusiasms and sometimes stunning naivete of younger people just entering the sport. Nor are these superannuated climbers always up on what's happening with gear, instruction, and general knowledge, so they tend to be dismissive of anything that isn't they way it was BITD when they themselves were young and enthusiastic and naive. The result is an atmosphere that is somewhat toxic to newcomers without thick skins, and so one that tends to perpetuate the demographic bias of the site.

In some alternate version of reality, the fantastic accumulation of wisdom about climbing here would be far more of a resource than it has turned out to be. Part of this has to do with the participants having tired of their own wisdom, or at least in sharing it, preferring, as might be expected of climbers, to venture into realms where relative ignorance provides a greater sense of adventure. Perhaps all those nasty arguments are the adrenaline-stimulating mechanism left to climbers who aren't getting that fix from climbing any more.

With little administrative commitment and a demographic that is to some extend self-perpetuating, there is no reason to think that there will be any significant change. There are times when I think the place is bound to collapse under the weight of all the off-topic ranting, trolling, and incivility, and then somehow it seems to recover for a bit. I'd guess the long-range prospects are dim, but that seems equally true for other climbing sites that have gone under for other reasons.

Personally, I skip over almost all of the off-topic threads, as I have plenty of outlets for those kinds of discussions and come here to connect with climbers over climbing. Even when these extraneous threads "only" occupy half of page one, their response counts are huge enough to keep climbing topics perpetually at the margins.

If I had any say in it, I'd vote for "community" and "climbing" subsections and see what happened. Perhaps the climbing part would die and CM could decide whether he wants to run a site for old climbers to argue about politics and expound on religion and science. Or maybe some younger climbers would invigorate the climbing section and the older folks would be pulled back by being reminded what truly illuminated and shaped their lives.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Oct 14, 2016 - 01:11pm PT

Prefer it as is. Trolling is way more fun than talking about climbing. We all get plenty of that on the weekends.

mouse from merced

Trad climber

The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.

Oct 14, 2016 - 01:41pm PT

"Perhaps all those nasty arguments are the adrenaline-stimulating mechanism left to climbers who aren't getting that fix from climbing any more."

NO, don't agree. They are whiners, plain and simple, who are annoying as f*#k. If they are not "right," they cannot play well with the others.

Other than that, nice reasoning, acute observations, and very close to if not spot on the mark about older climbers, as one would expect from Our Gold.

Civility is easy.

But not everyone finds it so.

This is a stumbling block in communication, and so some allowances must be made. How far to extend courtesy to a boor is hard to judge. Firm moderation is not what's happening here, and I appreciate CMac's laissez-faire policy, for one.

Banning is a result, but those banned ask for it in some way.

johntp

Trad climber

socal

Oct 14, 2016 - 01:58pm PT

I vote for a separate page for political posts. When folks like donnini bail, we need to look at the paradigm.

10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired

Oct 14, 2016 - 02:24pm PT

I vote for a separate page for political posts. When folks like donnini bail, we need to look at the paradigm.

we've tried that for years, and you can see out that worked out.

edit: thanks for the kind words, jody.

EdwardT

Trad climber

Retired

Oct 14, 2016 - 02:27pm PT

we've tried that for years, and you can see out that worked out

When was that?

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 14, 2016 - 02:34pm PT

Jody actually aimed those comments at me, 10b. I deleted my posts...he seems to feel his are critical enough to stay in place.

10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired

Oct 14, 2016 - 02:38pm PT

When was that?

it's been an on and off topic, especially when things are slow in the wintertime, for the past fifteen years.

edit: apogee, somehow I think jody thinks I am a moron also.

Gorgeous George

Trad climber

Los Angeles, California

Oct 14, 2016 - 02:42pm PT

Hey, it's the Taco. This is the brand, too late to change it now.

If you don't want to read the stuff, don't click on it. The rest of us like a little chuckle every now and then, and we know who the Trolls are anyway.

StahlBro

Trad climber

San Diego, CA

Oct 14, 2016 - 02:49pm PT

Personally, I like the Wild West format. Makes things more interesting.

That being said, everyone should understand that personal attacks are verboten in excess, and that villagers pushing the envelope will be shot, or put in the penalty box for a while.

What I find the most tiresome is people posting endless variations of the same topic. Feel free to cull that herd and there will be more real estate for climbing and outdoor content.

My $.02

Sport climber

Sonora Ca

Oct 14, 2016 - 03:03pm PT

Topic: I went climbing
Post: but, I kept thinking about the election

Contractor

Boulder climber

Oct 14, 2016 - 03:43pm PT

And to stay clear of the rabbit hole climbing threads must not pertain to:

style
Ratings
Grades
Bolt placement
Rock quality
Access
Raptors

Ah fuk it!

Rattlesnake Arch

Social climber

Home is where we park it

Oct 14, 2016 - 03:57pm PT

Part of this has to do with the participants having tired of their own wisdom, or at least in sharing it, preferring, as might be expected of climbers, to venture into realms where relative ignorance provides a greater sense of adventure.

One of the most profound comments I've read on this site. In fact the whole post is a gem. Thank you rgold.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Oct 14, 2016 - 04:23pm PT

Thanks Chris. Supertopo is for climbing and climbing related issues. Get rid of the songs, political BS, and off topic rants. Thanks again for cleaning things up.

johntp

Trad climber

socal

Oct 14, 2016 - 04:31pm PT

we've tried that for years, and you can see out that worked out.

Yeah, I know. Just thought I'd give it another shot.

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Oct 14, 2016 - 05:05pm PT

Free speech and self moderating are preferable.
Occasionally someone will become truly offensive. Let the offended complain. Let the site owner (Chris at this point) have a look at the claimed offenses then warn the offender if appropriate.
Give the offender a small number of chances to clean up.
Block the offender as a last resort.

I believe this is the way SuperTopo has been moderated until now.
Suits me.
I've had several people deliberately offend me and I've got a thick skin. No worries.
I grew tired of the general unpleasantness from said persons to others as well and stayed away for a few months except for the trip reports and gear reviews. Those people are now gone.

There are plenty of excellent climbing threads if the BS is bugging you.
No worries here.

i-b-goB

Social climber

Wise Acres

Oct 14, 2016 - 05:08pm PT

+1, Pork-Barrel Politics on SuperTopo!

rbord

Boulder climber

atlanta

Oct 14, 2016 - 06:54pm PT

We've got enough polls - let's have a thread to discuss it instead :-)

Yes, definitely ban political threads if you feel it's infecting the climbing threads or your bottom line or your own enjoyment/pride in your site.

For me, yea the site wouldn't hold as much interest for me if it was all climbing. If that's a good thing, ban it, if not, maybe don't.

But I think you were asking about ranting? Yea, that's a lot of work to ban - maybe censoring work that you're already doing, but doing at a much lighter level? Kind of hard to separate the political threads themselves from the ranting ...

Also, what DMT said.

Best to you!

yanqui

climber

Balcarce, Argentina

Oct 14, 2016 - 07:10pm PT

The answer to your question IMO is "Yes"

hossjulia

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

Oct 14, 2016 - 08:30pm PT

If you don't want to read the stuff, don't click on it. The rest of us like a little chuckle every now and then, and we know who the Trolls are anyway.

What GG said. Everyone has an ignore button, use it!

I'm not on here that much anymore precisely because this is a climbing site and it seems I don't climb anymore. Not happy about that bty.

m_jones

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

Oct 19, 2016 - 10:32pm PT

How about splitting this forum into two sections. One for
Those willing to use their name and the other half for those that are not.

Todd Eastman

climber

Bellingham, WA

Oct 19, 2016 - 10:37pm PT

who the heck is m_jones?

nah000

climber

no/w/here

Oct 19, 2016 - 10:47pm PT

^^^^

someone who thinks that bringing back ron anderson and leb will make supertaco great again?

thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Oct 19, 2016 - 10:49pm PT

splitting this forum into two sections. One for
Those willing to use their name and the other half for those that are not.

I'd abide it!

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Oct 20, 2016 - 12:19am PT

As long as it gets rid of the music, auto mechanic, cat, dog, bird, trout, soccer, baseball, legal, dental, medical, food, rooftop solar, and all other non-climbing posts.

Don't we want to be pure??

But I think the site would be the poorer for it.

clinker

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, California

Oct 20, 2016 - 07:09am PT

The politards should take off the days of the week beginning with the letters T&S.

HermitMaster

Social climber

my abode

Oct 20, 2016 - 08:57am PT

Trashman

Trad climber

SLC

Apr 16, 2019 - 03:38pm PT

Results are in: Bomz, you are the biggest loser!!

silverplume

Trad climber

Apr 16, 2019 - 03:53pm PT

Chris: I'd really encourage you to be deliberate about the kind of community you want to host and foster. One of the more successful online communities before Yahoo! ran it into the ground was Flickr, founded by Stewart Butterfield (now of Slack) and Caterina Fake. Caterina has been vocal in advising and encouraging people to be deliberate about the online communities they host, build, and support.

See: The Right Way to Build an Online Community: 3 Rules from Investor and Flickr Cofounder Caterina Fake

Also: Online Communities Gone Bad (and getting them back on track)

Give Caterina's advice a read and see if it resonates with you.

One key quote from the Medium article: "One of the things that Heather Champ — who was the first community manager on Flickr — says repeatedly is: ‘What you tolerate is what you are.’ So, if you tolerate white supremacists on your platform, you’re a platform for white supremacists. And you just have to accept that. And that unless you draw the lines, unless you say what is and is not acceptable on your platform, it just becomes a disaster. Because you want to be part of a community that share your values. And you don’t share values with white supremacists.”

zBrown

Ice climber

Apr 21, 2019 - 10:00pm PT

Yes

But each rant should be restricted to one post

Then the thread should be locked

Then deleted automatically after two days

And must include "Political Rant" in the title line

aspendougy

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Apr 21, 2019 - 10:27pm PT

Thing is, a person can go on a political rant on a non-political thread if they are determined. I would not mind getting rid of all threads that do no have to do with climbing, or at least have the climbing threads go to the top. I have found that sites such as FOX and DAILY MAIL allow more or less unrestricted political comments, and you have a much larger audience, so I don't understand why people want to get into political stuff on this particular site. Some of the non-climbing threads, such as Guido's boat building saga are really good.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 22, 2019 - 03:05am PT

Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.
Haile Selassie

Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence. - Leonardo da Vinci

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. - Martin Luther King, Jr.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Apr 22, 2019 - 03:46am PT

Flip flop nails it. Our country is imploding under the grip of a corrupt facist administration and C Mac wants to burry his and our heads in the sand and only allow talk about climbing..

Gunkie

Trad climber

Valles Marineris

Apr 22, 2019 - 05:38am PT

Yes. It's not like second hand smoke; you don't have to participate.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Mill Valley, Ca

Apr 22, 2019 - 05:41am PT

Cry me a river!

fear

Ice climber

hartford, ct

Apr 22, 2019 - 05:54am PT

Ranting about politics isn't "doing" anything. Quotes from MLK? Really? MLK didn't just post on forums.

It's a form of verbal masturbation at best that seeks approval from others in a strange echo-chamber where dissenting opinions are summarily crushed by the mob.

There are plenty of other forums for this....

Scott McNamara

climber

Tucson, Arizona

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:20am PT

Hi Chris,

I dont post very much. I rarely read political threads, but I read ST almost every day.

For me, one of the charming things about Supertopo is its chaotic, anti-authoritarian nature.

There are a lot of weird, funny, endearing characters.

It was not very regulated. You could find any wild opinion on a given day. It was great entertainment.

It was just like climbing outside “back in the day.”

You could pretty much put up a first ascent where ever you wanted.

For me, the bizarre, difficult, talented,driven climbers were entertaining and an important part of the scene---and sometimes a pain in the ass.

Times change, but to the extent you force change upon your website and try and over control it, it may become indistinguishable from all the others.

Thanks for asking.

Best,

Scott Mc

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:21am PT

Of course it should be.

LAhiker

Social climber

Los Angeles

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:28am PT

Yes, it should be, especially now as the United States appears to be approaching an important and difficult time.

I do wish there was light moderation of the forum, to remove abusive or extremely offensive posts.

However, now it seems that politics -- not abusive or offensive posts, but instead, anything do with politics -- appears to have been banned from SuperTopo. This means it will no longer be the campfire where climbers and their friends gather to talk about anything and everything, from climbing to mind to aging to yes, politics.

Flip Flop

climber

Earth Planet, Universe

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:35am PT

This is the only forum that I tolerate political nonsense. I know that I can come here for a smattering of political philosophy. Or I can pass it by. I mostly avoid it but occasionally suffer through it to better understand the minds of others. Even trolls like 'Fear' are occasionally human. Usually not, but sometimes.
I'm baffled by American's love of willful ignorance and their worship of anti-intellectualism. In the understandable desire to quash the stupidity, SuperTaco is also silencing the intelligent and moral opinions of the smart and wise.

Brook from Tahoe, Yosemite, Tuolumne, Monterey

Definition of troll loser: 'Fear' has 3000 posts of trolling hate, no pictures, no trip reports and he lives in Connecticut. That 'mental masturbation' must be his daily affirmation in his lonely world

tornado

climber

lawrence kansas

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:39am PT

It's over. You lost.

thebravecowboy

climber

The Good Places

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:46am PT

rock climbing on public lands is inherently political. to exclude political discussion is to shirk the responsible support of open discourse incumbent upon relatively powerful folks like Cmac, IMO.

A Essex

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:48am PT

/rant

Ferretlegger

Trad climber

san Jose, CA

Apr 22, 2019 - 08:57am PT

Chris,
Thank you for providing such a wonderful CLIMBING forum. Political rants devolve into hateful diatribes which do no one any good. Although this can happen around any campfire, as climbers and such are pretty opinionated people, the internet style ranting and raving is tearing our country apart. People say things in posts that they would never say in person. It seems that the anonymity of the internet has allowed our darkest sides a place to express themselves.
I can respect people for their climbing accomplishments even if I disagree with their political views. But that becomes hard to do if they punch you in the face (electronically) and call you vile names because you disagree.

If you wish, starting a separate section of the forum devoted to political issues and other non-outdoors or climbing matters then by all means do so. It would allow frustrated people a place to vent their spleen without the rest of us getting dragged into them.

I am a member of the Practicalmachinist.com forum. This is a site which has a massive forum devoted to professional machining and manufacturing issues. They have some strict guidelines, which the moderators enforce, which keeps discussion civil. Going this route may not appeal to you, but check out the way they separate discussion into subforums. This really works on that site. Spending 10 minutes or so exploring the site might suggest some ways to allow off-topic (i.e. climbing/outdoor) issues to still be discussed without impacting those who do not wish to deal with them.

In any case, I do think that anyone reading this post might wish to consider the enormous resource that this forum has been to the climbing community, and the fact that you provide it for free. It is not a RIGHT, but a PRIVILEGE and a GIFT that we can post here and stay in touch with those we have climbed with in the (distant) past.

So Thanks, Chris,
Michael Jefferson

Delhi Dog

climber

Good Question...

Apr 22, 2019 - 09:13am PT

What Scott said.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Apr 22, 2019 - 09:34am PT

Perhaps it is merely CMac’s desire to enhance public health by obviating further flogging of that poor dead horse?

capseeboy

Social climber

wandering star

Apr 22, 2019 - 09:37am PT

Anonymity is nothing new.

Wiki:

Gulliver's Travels was a transparently anti-Whig satire, it is likely that Swift had the manuscript copied so that his handwriting could not be used as evidence if a prosecution should arise, as had happened in the case of some of his Irish pamphlets (the Drapier's Letters).

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Apr 22, 2019 - 09:39am PT

rock climbing on public lands is inherently political. to exclude political discussion is to shirk the responsible support of open discourse incumbent upon relatively powerful folks like Cmac, IMO.

Amen!

EdwardT

Trad climber

Retired

Apr 22, 2019 - 11:24am PT

Seems like a lot of posters have left (or been banned) this month.

Who is gone?

Dingus
Toker Villain

Who's pulled their TR?

Trump

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 11:32am PT

Posting isn’t actually doing anything, yet here I am posting about how posting isn’t actually doing anything. Posters gonna post I guess.

Prolly should expect that on a posting website. What exactly is allowed for posters to post about? This is, as they say, your party. Thanks for the invitation.

RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member

Apr 22, 2019 - 02:56pm PT

thebravecowboy and jaybro:

rock climbing on public lands is inherently political. to exclude political discussion is to shirk the responsible support of open discourse incumbent upon relatively powerful folks like Cmac, IMO.

Chris agrees with you.

What he said was this:

Climbing topics that are also political in nature, such as access issues, climate change, or discussion of policies related to or impacting climbing destinations are welcome here.

Please refer to Chris's post on that topic here.

johntp

Trad climber

Punter, Little Rock

Apr 22, 2019 - 04:54pm PT

I don't care one way or the other. Once a thread goes political, just don't open it anymore.

But is stupid when an on topic thread gets diverted into a political web fight and deteriorates into a small group trash talking each other's perspective and not staying on topic with regard to the OP.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber

moving thru

Apr 22, 2019 - 05:06pm PT

The complexity of it all....

I think rant is like rave.

We could discuss in a measured manner like dancing in the 60's/70's.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Apr 22, 2019 - 05:10pm PT

I am guilty of enjoying and posting in the political threads. At the same time, I am OK with them being banned or relegated to a separate sub-forum.

They have started to crowd out the climbing posts, although that must of the reduction in climbing post activity is due to people moving on to Facebook and other social media sites. The climbing "party" is moving on... I don't think banning political posts will reverse this decline, but it may marginally reduce the rate of decline. So it may be a useful exercise.

I see the other changes in policy driving climbers away-namely the new policies that resulted in the decimation of the historical threads. These new policies are doing more damage to the "living heart" of the SuperTopo forum as climbing community than the political threads ever did, in my opinion.

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Apr 22, 2019 - 07:01pm PT

Much of the gutter sniping would go away with one change. Everyone should have the courage to post as the person they actually are. No tags. Post under your actual name. anonymous posting is for cowards. When people have to take ownership of what they say they might show some restraint.

For you posters out there; writing is supposed to mean that you took time to consider your words. Don't write as you would speak off the top of your head. Take the gift that writing offers you: the chance to step back and consider your choice of words. Restraint is the idea. Edit yourself so others don't have to.

Obvious edits; Vulgarities, personal attacks, untruths, stereotyping or any immature potty mouth delivery. In other words: grow up.

Supertopo is worth keeping free and open to all subjects. Wild cat climbers just need to reel it in a little when it comes to writing things down for public discourse.

tolman_paul

Trad climber

Anchorage, AK

Apr 22, 2019 - 09:13pm PT

Personally the overly vitriolic political threads have driven me away from the taco over the years. I don’t mind respectful lively discussions from people with diverse views, but that rarely occurs from either side on the political rants.

immanti

climber

Apr 22, 2019 - 10:04pm PT

IMO... Yes.

And ok... I might be guilty of having participated in one or more discussions of the political kind here at some point or another...

But no one is forced to read, so far as I know... Live and let live.

The subjectivity implied, as well as the policing and purging it would take to enforce such a rule would be enough to drive off many posters.

That's just my opinion though, and someone else's decision.

brotherbbock

climber

So-Cal

Apr 23, 2019 - 01:35pm PT

Yes.

You don't have to click stuff you don't want to read.

It's good to have campfire talks about all subjects.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 23, 2019 - 02:04pm PT

Yes.

But I'd prefer that it not take the form of 'ranting' so much as thoughtful discussion. I do think that's possible, even in this day and age.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 23, 2019 - 02:07pm PT

You’re right...it’s a forum for climbers not a climbing forum. There is also a forum that I visit for owners of T@B travel trailers (we just bought one). Guess what...they talk about their trailers, nary a peep about politics. I listen to what they say since, being owners of the trailers, they have developed some expertise regarding them.
That is the same reason I tune into ST. The forum is for climbers and being climbers they have developed some expertise concerning climbing. When these same people talk about politics they are just spouting poorly formed, prejudiced opinions that have no value to anyone save themselves.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 23, 2019 - 02:21pm PT

A couple of construction forums I lurk on both have regular political threads going all the time, and the same dynamics as you see here: a few really persistent posters and a lot of activity in those threads. The main difference: the threads are sectioned off in an 'off topic' area.

Re: 'poorly formed, prejudiced opinions':
Isn't that the very nature of human beings who discuss anything? Doesn't matter if it's politics, retrobolting or Religion vs. Science, everyone brings their own view of the issue to the discussion, no matter how 'well formed'. When the discussion is done properly, hopefully all leave it a little 'better formed'.

Mike Friedrichs

Sport climber

City of Salt

Apr 23, 2019 - 02:23pm PT

Jim, I can't agree. I'm going to repost what I wrote in the other thread. Don't you think these things are related to climbing?

If we discuss land policies that affect climbing access are those political topics or climbing topics? If we discuss global warming, which has implications on climbing conditions and sustainability is that a political topic or a climbing topic? If we discuss social conditions that give the privileged leisure time to recreate (climb) while those who aren't in that class can't afford or don't have the time is that a political topic or a climbing topic.

We are climbers and we're also humans. We should care about social conditions that affect all of us. The lack of civic engagement is a serious problem in this country that has resulted in us having, well, Trump. We should be encouraging more civic engagement, not less.

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 23, 2019 - 02:39pm PT

Mike, I will agree that politics that directly impact climbing are viable subjects for discussion but that is not the case about mist poltical threads here.

I am against censorship and I am not suggesting banning them. I just think they clutter up and dominate the forum along with other ot threads.I just wish people would show some restraint and search out other more appropriate forums although I know that is unlikely to happen.

Steve Rathbun

climber

Outer Lurkistan

Apr 23, 2019 - 03:04pm PT

Q: How difficult would it be to add a tab for "Other/Clutching my pearls about something besides rocks?"

A: Not Very.

David Knopp

Trad climber

Apr 23, 2019 - 03:08pm PT

Steve Rathbun? Prolific Feist-Now posting under his real name? That is ballsy!

Yeti

Trad climber

Ketchum, Idaho

Apr 24, 2019 - 04:37pm PT

If you don't like the rant, don't open the thread. That's a (significant) part of free expression and a free press. The definition of 'forum' is a place for discussion. Does anyone here know or know of a climber whose life has not been impacted by politics? I don't. Keep the discussion going and open, even to the wackos who vote for Trump.

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber

La Mancha

Apr 24, 2019 - 04:50pm PT

Mark me as “yes” for allowing political discussions. When they digress into ad hominem attacks, those should be pruned. Pretty easy to see which thread is political. Don’t click on it if you’re not interested or offended.

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Apr 24, 2019 - 06:35pm PT

Regulation should not be focused on topic of conversation, but rather on communication style to foster mutual respect and understanding.

An a-hole can make the forum experience unpleasant no matter what is the topic, but respectful people can have interesting and mutually beneficial conversations on any topic.

WBraun

climber

Apr 24, 2019 - 07:07pm PT

Yer all ranting all the time anyways so why not.

Where ya all blew it is when you fools down voted having political and off-topic threads in a separate heading sub forum.

Off topic and politics here is like red light districts.

You people blew it because yer all ultimately

St00pid ...... :-)

dgbryan

Mountain climber

Hong Kong

Apr 24, 2019 - 09:16pm PT

Chris,
I’m reprising here what many have already said.
It is your website & you have provided a fantastic resource for climbers for more than two decades - online & with the guidebooks.
What I, & I guess many, have found, is that a lot of the spin-off discussions have been both entertaining & educational - I have learned a lot. I have often made ST my start to the day & used references in something read there for further research into whatever interests me at the time.
Like you & I think many others, I find pointless invective & name-calling offensive, but I’ve learned to use the scroll button, & the nastier slagging are a bit like watching a couple of drunks trying to slug - you eye warily & circle wide.
As I say, your site & your prerogative. But the debate on ST has grown with its contributors & lurkers over the years, & personally I would miss it.
Damian

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber

da ow

Apr 25, 2019 - 01:56pm PT

have you seen facebook, or comments on just about any news story where folks sign in through facebook? i'm not seeing a whole lot of restraint.

Prezwoodz

climber

Anchorage

Apr 25, 2019 - 05:25pm PT

Im on the no side.

Hubbard

climber

San Diego

Apr 25, 2019 - 07:53pm PT

My post was a sort of hope or guideline as a baseline for how to communicate in public and not make a fool of oneself. If they use their real name at least you know who it is when you see them at the crag. All the hiding is shallow. If a person wants to act like a fool under their real name then all power to their confidence. Maybe they don't care about consequences? At least you know who you are dealing with.

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