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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:01pm PT
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Damn Straight, Khanom!
I live right next to vacant property about two miles square. These ass-holes have completely tore up the place.
They will drive straight up a hill, right through the dry weeds. Before long, this turns to sort of a "road", straight up the fall-line of the hill. THEN the rainy season comes and erodes deep ruts in this "road".
The next year, the ass-holes can't use the "road" they etched into the hillside the year before because of the ruts the rain made, so they will "create" another one RIGHT NEXT TO THE ONE FROM THE YEAR BOFORE.
Repeat this same cycle for a few years and pretty soon the hills are all tore up.
Then we get a REAL rainy season, like we had a few years ago, and these ruts all fill up with water and wash sand, mud, and dirt right into people's yards. Not mine, I'm on top of the hill. But many of my neighbor's yards fill up with mud now when it rains, thanks to Ricky Racer and his Ass-Hole off-roader pals.
Off-roaders must be f*#king retarded. I watch these guys, and what they do is just drive around in circles, like a dumb dog chasing it's own tail. Except the dumb dog is smart enough to quit after a minute or two. Off-Road Ass-Hole can drive around in circles ALL F*#KING DAY! Then come back to the exact same place the very next day and drive around in the same circles again. Retards.
The worst part is they start four or five fires in the hills every year. And the chickenshits just take off after the fire starts. NOT ONCE has one of them had the balls to take responsibility for starting a fire. Or at least warn the neighborhood that there's a fire burning before they split.
I used to think Off-Roaders were like any other recreational enthusiast. But after seeing how f*#king irresponsible these ass-holes are now I see that they're ALL menaces.
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mike
climber
shitsville, now
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:14pm PT
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Just think if these deuchbags were climbers.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Have you guys tried running out in the street while jumping up and down and waving your fist at them?
Crying works too.
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Griff
Social climber
Felton, PA
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:21pm PT
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"I used to think Off-Roaders were like any other recreational enthusiast. But after seeing how f*#king irresponsible these ass-holes are now I see that they're ALL menaces."
"All" of them?
A true fascist. "My way or the (off)Highway"
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:22pm PT
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Pud,
Perhaps YOU would like it if I tore up YOUR property with MY quad.
A few years ago at least two of these ass-holes knocked down 14 of my newly planted orange trees. They did about $500 of damage so they could f#ck around for a few seconds.
That's one of the reasons I'm in avocados now.
I just don't see the attraction of these machines. I have a Honda 300 "Four Trax" in four-wheel-drive. I use it with a trailer to haul stuff around my yard.
But 30 seconds after I sit on the thing, I'm already bored.
How stupid does someone have to be that they can drive around in circles all f#cking day on one?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:35pm PT
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I used to ride all the time. Great way to approach climbs. Still have a few machines but I haven't used them in years. Haven't got the heart to. I go back to places where I used to ride responsibly and see the devastation wrought by yahoos, the garbage, the grafiti.
Recently I spoke with a highly accomplished climber (no names) who's property was trashed.
We compared ideas of possible tactics and he had some great ones.
I go for the standard routines but a disguised asphalt pit/trap? Another with a deep layer of small cheap industrial trash magnets? (They bind up all over the machine and just shift when one tries to pull them off.) Camoflaged hardwood spikes that don't set off a metal detector but ream tires?
And don't forget that they hate being videotaped. They're like ignorant savages that think you're doing something illegal and "stealing" their image.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:36pm PT
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I've always wanted to be an avocado farmer. Either that or a garlic rancher.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:35am PT
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This is the funniest thread I've read in a long time. More please.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:48am PT
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I dont own a dirt bike but I do own and use a few 4x4 vehicles. Aside from climbing one of my other passions is exploring desert backroads that can only be accessed with a 4x4. There are even some new climbing areas near Bishop that I am exploring that are only accesible by 4x4 or a 2 day walk. I never drive off road, there are plenty of old roads left to explore and no reason to make new ones. Driving a really tough road is also lots of fun, much like climbing you have to read the route and pick a line, finesse beats brute force. It's just fun.
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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"I'm in Inyo outside of Mammoth"
Mammoth = Mono County. Knott to knit pick but I'm stumped.
~Susan
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10b4me
climber
Site C4 in TMCG
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:16am PT
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nothing wrong with 4xing. just don't fuk up the neighborhood.
offroaders=snowmobilers
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:25am PT
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Thing is, with the softness of the rock I'm starting to see climbers in the same light.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:27am PT
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Earlier, when I wrote "NOT ONCE has one of them had the balls to take responsibility for starting a fire" I wasn't 100% accurate.
Seven years ago next month one guy DID take responsibility for the fire he started.
He died in it.
Straddling the property line between my property and my neighbor's un-developed (at the time) property.
It seems DumbSh#t had the brilliant plan to spin donuts on my neighbor's (then) vacant property at 1:00am. He gets his truck stuck on top of the dry vegetation and sets it on fire.
For some reason he didn't get out of truck and died on the spot from a combonation of heat and stupidity.
Took out about a dozen of my pine trees, too.
For about three or four years there was a puddle of man-grease in the dirt where the guy had burned. The dog always liked to sniff at it and try to eat it. The ants liked it, too.
When this happened I'm sitting in the house, reading a book, when I smell what smelled like a real sweet pork roast. I guess that's what a burning person smells like because that's what it was.
Every August since then his friends or family leaves a pile of plastic flowers and candles where this happened. In my f#cking yard! I hope I see them next month when they do it this year so I can tell them I think they're son-brother-friend almost burned down the whole neighborhood by being an irresponsible ass-hole.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:32am PT
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Up here, we have snowmobilers.
I partly agree with Ron - when it comes to overall impact on the environment, and sometimes impact on a specific area, climbers don't always have a lot to boast about. We could often do better, whether as consuming citizens of developed countries, or as people who visit some special places, and don't always care for them as we could.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:50am PT
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Reminds me of the words of the shovel poet WeeFox.
Once upon a time we sat together at the top of Pooh Corner (reynolds hill, Vedauwoo) watching the sunset in rasta meditation. When the world was sonically and visually torn, by young beserkers, plowing foot deep, single tracks through the wetland below; had they slowed down below, 30?, fukers woulda drowned.
"Dirt bikers are the scum of the earth!" Boomed the (6, foot three inch) Wee one. It was hard to disagree, though most of those guys seem a lot better than the turds we bore witness to.
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marky
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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easy target, but what the f*#k, I'll pile on. every OHV I've encountered in the frontcountry has only corroborated the stereotype.
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:04am PT
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"Inyo National Forest" ahhh, I understand now.
I haven't had any personal bad dealing with OHV'rs but their offenses seem to be on the rise. The J-Tree area is really cracking down on the areas where people ride.
People destroying the lands has been a long standing problem. It wasn't that many years ago I remember sitting onto of Pinnacle Peak in Scottsdale looking down and a zazillion™ mountain bike single tracks. I don't really see the difference. Bike tracks, horse trails, OHV's and people for that matter cutting trails. It destroys and looks awful.
~Susan
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Jul 31, 2007 - 10:42am PT
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I most certainly do not suck. I love my off highway vehicle. I have to admit the crowd is not my favorite, but I ride with my longtime friends and pretty much avoid other riders.
What sucks is that you are on a climbing trip and you bother to post on this site. Are you having a hard time finding things to do? I've been jonesing to get out of town but I'm stuck doing drafting work for my next project and I am now procrastinating as I pour myself another cup off coffee. Get over it and get away from it.
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Pennsylenvy
Social climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 10:55am PT
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I love to see them riding in a big long chain on a really dusty road. That's fun?...........I know folks who are completly responsible riding quads, a couple hunter friends in particular. But most I see are dumber than a box of rocks. Problem is quad manufacturers advertise this is the exciting way to see the "wilderness". As americans get fatter we can expect to see more and more bubbleheads.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:07am PT
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Khanom,
Yep, most of the damage I see now is caused by quads. I just got back from Coyote Flats, a beautiful area between Big Pine and Bishop at 10,000 feet. We stayed on the roads and off the meadows. I was pissed when I saw quad tracks heading across the meadows and into areas previously untraveled. Many of the folks I see on quads are Bishop locals up for the day and most are pretty cool and responsible but I have noticed in recent years that the quads tear up the road more than a full size 4x4. I watched two quads in front of me this weekend spin their wheels in the dirt kicking up grapefruit sized rocks. This type of destruction is totally avoidable even on quads.
Enough whining, I need to get back out to the Saline for a good soak.
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justthemaid
climber
Los Angeles
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:24am PT
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Amen I'm with ya brother.
...and don't get me started on those stupid ski-do's (sp?)
We've got a beach house in Baja. All day they go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Boring and loud. At least they are less destructive than the quads. Pretty sad how much destruction has been caused by quads.
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:39am PT
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Keep America and Americans beautiful, ban motorized recreation on all public lands.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:41am PT
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And motorhome generators.
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andanother
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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and pack animals.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:45am PT
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A few things that I notice about ATV riders is this:
The funny/ironic:
Many "hunters" have them to retrieve game--sure, it's lazy, but that's their business. The catch ? Since they have the machines with them, they usually use their ATV's to scout (hunt?) game--not realizing that the noisy, smelly machines drive game away before the hunter can see them. I notice rigs with ATV's on the back of them, but no elk--then I notice the trucks with the elk in them, and no ATV.
The positive:
When out driving the dirt roads to scout boulders, almost ALWAYS do the riders around the Batholith slow down, then give a wave to me in the mojede-mobile. RARELY, do I get such courteous treatment from other outdoor user groups. I notice the mtn-bikers, the climbers, kayakers and the like on the roads and trails, but they seem to be too wrapped up in themselves to notice or care that other folks are recreating in the same area.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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Mojede,
I have had the same experience as far as civility goes. I always get a wave from these folks and just about all of them have a smile. It also seems to be a family affair with parents and kids out enjoying themselves. If they are doing it responsibly then more power them. On the other hand I have been snubbed while kayaking because my boat wasn't the latest and greatest or my helmet was 10 years old. Seems like I meet a lot of kayakers and climbers who's underwear seems to be about 4 sizes too small. Lighten up.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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Mojede, you make a good point about bicycles, kayaks and the such. I am constantly forced to cross double-yellows on the way to climbs because bikers wont get over because their riding side by side talking, or just being rude and not 'sharing the road'.
I wonder what we'd say if we were criticized because a couple of climbers grid-bolted an area, or brought power-drills to certain area, thus ruining access for everyone. We'd say, well, we're not all like that, we can police ourselves.
Let's not go overboard and condemn the whole bunch with statements like, "No motorized machines on public lands". I dare to say that sounds a little selfish.
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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Where we live in northern NH, we mostly encounter snowmobilers.
Tomcat and I head out on backcountry skis so we can ice climb at some remote cliff. We invariably see groups of mostly fat, cigarette smokin' slobs out for a ride on their sleds. It sure doesn't look like fun to us...riding single file thru the woods, breathing that exhaust all day, getting fatter and you know they aren't seeing any wildlife.
Banning motorized sports would be one way to help with the obesity problem in this country.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:07pm PT
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Oh yeah, Justthemaid, I feel your pain about 'ski-do' and jetski's too. Again, it's usually idiots involved. When I take my boat out I always have to watch out for these clowns following too close to my boat or cutting in front of me. In my experience though, the water-sherrif's come down pretty hard on these guys. I've seen them get cited on several occassions for coming to close to power boats. Not enough, but it does get enforced.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:16pm PT
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But climbers never screw things up.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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Having a 4x4 has allowed me to access places that the Suburu crowed cant get to. Yes I do stay on roads. This little or should I say huge gem of a spot has yet to be touched by climbers and I have had it to myself the last two years. Situated at 9500 feet with a stream running through it. It's like climbing at JT but with a stram and grass.
The dome in the first shot is over 300 feet high and there are more down canyon that exceed 500 feet, the place is amazing and it was found while exploring backcountry roads.
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:53pm PT
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I used to race motocross so I understand how one can 'drive in circles' all day. It is a skill sport, like climbing or any other skill sport. You are either good at it or trying to get good at it. I used to ride around in the desert too. I wouldn't do that anymore, except on dirt roads. I think that at 20 most boys don't see the long term effects of what they do. I am not sure that 20 year olds see long term in any sense. Just the nature of the beast.
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andanother
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:10pm PT
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tradchick wrote:
"...motorized sports..."
Seeing those two words next to each other made me giggle a little bit.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
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That sounds like most of us, Jan. Good post!
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
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I'm definitely in the non-ATV crowd. There are definitely responsible users out there, and I don't want to indict them.
But quads have made this far too easy to do for too many people. Dirt bikes cause a fair amount of damage, but they also require some skill, so that limited numbers a bit.
Quads require essentially no skill, so consequently have resulted in large numbers of drunk idiots (and also a lot of serious injuries and deaths). I'd just as soon that they were banned.
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10b4me
climber
Site C4 in TMCG
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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Khanom,
you've got a cool site.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:42pm PT
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Stevep I don't think that "skill" justifies abuse.
Dirt bikes and quads create different wear patterns but its apples and oranges. Both do substantial damage but its a mistake to vilify the tool used rather than the abuser, and its not just the impact of the machine; its the dangerous human cargo it carries.
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:45pm PT
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andanother: LOL! I use the term "motorized sports" very loosely. What's amazing to me is the number of people riding around on those sleds that think they are participating in a "sport."
It's more like a hobby...just like golf or bowling.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:46pm PT
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I ride both on and off road motorcycles. I own many.
I have been riding in California since the early '70's probably will all my life.
Attitudes about bikes haven't changed much over the years but non riders seemed to be filled with more hate and misinformation today than ever before.
Sign of the times I 'spose.
There may be kids spinning donuts on your property or people riding quads across delicate environs, but blaming every OHV rider is like blaming every climber for the trash I pick up at the crags. It is wrong.
If we are to ban off-road motorized recreation, then let's ban horseback riding, mountain biking, hiking, mountaineering, rockclimbing, muni, canyoneering, trailrunning, hang gliding, skiing, fishing and every other sport that impacts the enviroment.
Let's not be hypocrites after all..
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Jul 31, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
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I think people should be banned from climbing Everest...based on that pic.
Thanks Pud, that says it all.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:08pm PT
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that figures.
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andanother
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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I think it's very important to put people into groups, and then judge the entire group based upon the actions of one or two of its members.
I like to do this in every aspect of my life. It makes things very simple.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:16pm PT
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Just as skiing IS a motorized sport, it can also be substantial exercise. And the same goes for ORVs. I've gotten as much of a workout in a ride as doing a multipitch route.
So knocking the concept of sports with motors being a contradiction, well that doesn't fly.
Khanom, do I get that you're anti-gun?
That would explain a lot.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
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That you would assume that all they are designed for is killing betrays your narrow perspective.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:27pm PT
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K,
I do feel your pain - I've noticed how things have gotten worse over the years in terms of people not staying on the established roads and/or terrorizing non-OHV recreators. Have had some real bad experiences in the So. Cal deserts with drunk idiots on quads, middle the night, etc., etc. as well as years of dodging idiots on jet skis and sea doos on Lake Isabella while windsurfing (with the right of way as a non motorized "boat" no less).
Like any user group of course you can't generalize...I'm sure there are responsible OHV riders too...somewhere. Last year we drove out to what used to be a nice, quiet spot in the Inyo (forest) to camp. What we found in our little clearing were at least 4 motorhomes, each with a gigantic trailer attached with multitudes of off road toys...gas cans everywhere, tables and chairs set up, stereos, tents, shade pavilions, extra tires and on and on, and the capper - two satellite dishes strapped to the Jeffrey Pines for TV reception. Made me sick.
But, on the other hand, that's not what I'm into. I guess for them it was paradise.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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I belong to a Land Rover club in So Cal. I have been very impressed with the Tread Lightly policy they enforce on all trips. No driving off established roads, no taking a dump in the woods, they bring toilets on overnight trips and pack it out. Drive with a light foot. Do not drive around mud or water in the trail, doing so only makes the trail wider in that spot. If the trail is too difficult turn around instead of tearing up the trail attempting to make it. We also carry out loads of garbage from other user groups. There are plenty of responsible land users who also drive 4x4's, motorcycles and quads. Climbers are not immune to being complete idiots. I have witnesses on more than a few occasions the removal of trees, bushes etc.. from the base of climbs to suit the desire of the climber. Who hasn't seen or picked up hundreds of cigarette butts at the crags or witnessed a climbers dog take a dump near the base of a crag.
I love it when someone claims to be free spirited and have an open mind and yet makes statements like ban all OHV's or 4x4's. Way to keep an open mind.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
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Well, at least you're somewhat reasonable, I'll give you that, Khanom.
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:18pm PT
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I THINK WE SHOULD JUST BAN EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING FROM THE FOREST AND THE WILDERNESS.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:30pm PT
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Solution: Educate user groups through the manufacturers of their products, their trade magazines, etc. To keep user groups from getting banned and promote sales, this is a fair approach to making a difference.
I will call Barbara this afternoon and encourage her to put in a bill, the "Don't be a Dumb F@#k on Public Lands Initiative."
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:32pm PT
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Khanom,
Next time you see this, call the sheriff's department. 760-932-7549. It is illegal to ride an OHV off of established roads in the Inyo.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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Problem is; its hard for them to not be what they are.
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marky
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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the Inyo sheriff is a good ol' boy; he's not going to dick (except maybe give a police escort of two cases of Coors to the OHVers)
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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Khanom, it also helps to get the license plate #s off the rigs and trailers--makes the Sheriff's job all that much easier.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 31, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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Well if its your place then there's not too much to installing concealed motion activated digital cameras.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 31, 2007 - 06:50pm PT
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Ron, skill definitely doesn't justify abuse. I'm just as upset about a skilled motorcycle rider tearing up a meadow as I would be a skilled horseman, mtn. biker, or ATV rider.
The point I was trying to make is that there are a certain number of idiots in any user group. Because ATV's require so little skill, they have brought a lot more users out then motorcycles did. Since there are more users, there are also more disrespectful idiots.
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Jul 31, 2007 - 07:21pm PT
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And there are all too many Climbers that think that the ban on riding their mountain bike to the crags at Josh just doesn't apply to them! Talk about tearing up a landscape! I wonder how some of those StoneMasters feel about that abuse now that they are older?
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fowweezer
Trad climber
Pleasant Grove, UT
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Jul 31, 2007 - 07:37pm PT
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I'm always amused by the ridiculous responses to serious or semi-serious subjects posted on message boards like this.
I don't particularly like ATV's or OHV's or whatever you call them. I've driven a few dirt roads in an SUV, but I don't do it often (3 times in 4 years I'd say). I have cousins that love to drive ATV's and snowmachines, and I'm fine with them doing it.
They own 6 acres of land and they drive all over it. They take their ATV's to the sand dunes and have a blast. In fact, I've gone with them and it's pretty damn fun. Not climbing fun, but pretty fun.
I have no problem with that.
I go up American Fork Canyon here in Utah, to a nice mountain lake where families picnic and swim and people fish. It's a jumping off point for one of my favorite easy day hikes to a lake. This time we stuck around with our dog and my nieces.
We were joined by a contingent of off-roaders driving in the muddy lakebed, tearing up the vegetation that had been exposed by this year's less-than-usual snowmelt and hotter-than-normal summer. Nice disruption of a nice day.
I wouldn't mind so much, because there are a few good dirt roads in the area where they should be allowed to travel. I've even driven one of them in my sister's jeep. But these guys were all over the edge of the lake, in the lake-bed, going through areas of already damaged vegetation.
You guys who care about ATV use like pud should really try to get the people in your "group" to be more responsible. You may be responsible but not all of the ATV'ers are, and that might ruin it for everyone. As it stands I'd support a bill to ban them from new road creation on all public lands (isn't that already the case) and back it up with HEAVY fines. And perhaps ban them from some portion of national forest land, in particular in areas where abuse has been rampant and where enforcement seems to be lax. Determining which areas those are could get interesting though.
What makes me more angry is that I got ticketed $200 by Forest Service personnel for illegal camping too close to the same lake. I didn't even have a damn tent. I didn't sh#t on the banks, I didn't pee in the lake, I didn't even have a fire. I threw two sleeping bags out on the ground by a beautiful lake for a night's sleep under the stars. And that does more damage than driving in the lake bed on a busy saturday afternoon when multiple other parties are around the lake?
I respect your right to drive an ATV, dirt bike, or snowmachine. But I also recognize that not all impact is the same, and we should all have the goal of reducing our impact. I wont' place bolts or drive pins if you won't make new roads. I'll stay on established trails if you'll stay on established roads, etc etc.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 31, 2007 - 07:49pm PT
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It's no fun for these ATV Ass-Holes to stay on roads because ROADS ALL GO SOMEWHERE.
From what I can tell, Off-Road Ass-Hole gets his kicks from driving around in circles. Roads don't go in circles. Nobody, not even The Government, is stupid enough to go through the trouble of building a road that goes in circles. So these guys HAVE to stray from the roads.
I like to ask the ones I encounter on my property "where you guys going?".
Their answer is always a variation of "huh?".
Someone who is on a moving motor vehichle should always have an answer that makes sense when asked "where you going?".
These WaterHeads NEVER do.
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spot
climber
Atascadero,Ca
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Khanom
I totally agree with your opening statement. I often feel this way too and I also explore off pavement on established dirt roads, both with high clearance vehicles and motorbikes with my family. We consiously(sp)stay on the road and do not go off "on a romp" through the brush, forest, etc. Unfortunately there are too many that do. More people = more idiots. If you want to be an idiot, go to Hollister ORV State Park.
Mammoth is a victim of its own popularity coupled with interwest's desire to europeanzie the area and totally Phu*k it up in the name of $$$ and attracting disrespectful "users" of the area. It used to be a nice place to go in the 1970's when tickets were still $8.00 and locals were really local. Unfortunately most of California has been fornicated up.
Something the USFS might try is to follow Los Padres Forest lead and staff a couple of riders in the field to bust the *ssholes that break the law and maybe the word will get out to stay on the road or leave. It isn't a perfect solution, but you have to start somewhere. I'm willing to give up some of my rights to access to save a beautiful area, where ever that might be, but not without trying to educate the boneheads first.
ps. I had to bookmark your website. Way cool!
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WBraun
climber
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Hey khanom
Are ya there?
You got a cool thing going with your life.
Try not to be so hard on yourself.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Ventura
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I'm look'n at getting myself into a 250R suzuki quad.. I'll be happier when I can also strap on the rifle
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brown unit
climber
whittier, ca
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ok i have read all the responses and i can give you a response from an ohv rider.
honestly alot of us feel your pain as well there are a good amount of responsible riders out there that help with trail maintenance and cleanup days but unfortunatley it is a small percentage. we also run into the same problem as you with alot of tards ruining it out thre for the rest of us. this stems alot from quads being so easy to ride and the availitbility of the and the majority of them being tools and riding without helmets, doing donughts in the staging areas etc... just giving everyone the reason to blast us. you may not want to believe but we do try to educate alot of people but like with anything else it goes on deaf ears and when you give a person a machine that is easy to ride like a quad with no training or real supervision they do what they want. the same thing goes with people riding illegally on non-OHV land. and due to the rise of the "freestylers" ie flatbillers and goon riders that just tear up around campsite and place jumps in the middle of nowhere so that when your riding you run into these jumps possibley injuring yourself. it is hard to get thrugh to people. and the big picture for us responsible riders is that these people are one of the main reasons for the closures of OHV areas. they tear the places up leave trash etc... which ruins it for everybody.
so to sum it up not all OHV riders are bad but there aer alot of them that are and they ruin it for everyone else becasue that's the impression everyone gets once they see them.
(sorry if the spelling/grammar is bad i just came back form a trip very tired)
Julian Hobbs
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brown unit
climber
whittier, ca
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everybody's got an opinion and you have yours which is our god given right, correct? i was just trying to give a different perspective that's all.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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How about OHV tags?
We could start out with a low bag limit, like say 3 or 4.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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khanom,
The Inyo is a big place and it seems you are finding all the bad places. I have been camping, climbing, skiing in the Inyo for 40 years and you seem to have found more OHV noise in two days than I have in 40 years. Head over to the Whites or the Inyos for a change of scenery, take a deep breath and clear your head. It just aint that bad, the OHV's can be avoided if you choose to avoid them.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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I've thankfully been spared the wrath of dirtbikes, but have had numerous encounters with snowmobiles while living in Alaska.
We often walked our dogs on a frozen slough during out log ass dark winters. Those suckers would wip around corners at dangerous speeds, and on more than one occasion they nearly biffed avoiding us. I took to bringing a halogen bike light to blast them with as soon as they became visible. We also ran into a few full on drunks. One guy stopped and offered us a ride (he was WAAAYYY toasted), then proceeded to go up the bank towards the normal road/sidewalk, only to fall off at the top.
Simply requiring tags on OHV's for identification purposes would go a long way to allow dangerous and illegal behavior to be reported.
We also had a couple cases where in frustrated folk retalliated. In one case a wire was strung at neck level (catching a girl, who was thankfully at a very low speed). In another case a kid got a load of shot in the back while trespassing on his machine.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Moof when I said "tags" I was refering to hunting licenses.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Draw educated conclusions.
OHV - Off-Highway vehicle, any vehicle used for off-road travel
ATV - All Terrain vehicle, usually refers to quads
Quad - four wheel off-road vehicle
Motorcross - closed course used for racing and practicing motocross on a two wheel motorcycle
Legal Off-Road riding/racing - refers to vehicle travel on designated trails, roads and open terrain not governed by highway rules and regulations.
The inclusion of quads into off road travel is unfortunate at best. They never should have been allowed to be imported into this country or sold as OHV's. They destroy huge amounts of land, habitat and watershed every year.
As noted here, the individuals operating these vehicles are typically young, uneducated and irresponsible.
These people have pretty much ruined the reputation of OHV use in the united states and elsewhere.
The over use of particular areas put aside for quad operators have demonstrated the actual destruction these vehicles are capable of.
I ride two wheels OHV's (motorcycles). I ride on closed courses and designtated trail systems throughout the California desert and Southern Seirra mountain range.
Typically, When I ride off-road I don't see any people from the time I unload the bike untill I load up at end of day. My partners and I ride remote areas.
The incident(s) described in this thread of off-road abuse are a reflection of a governing agency's uneducated attempts at allowing a destructive device (quads) to be used in areas far too fragile for this activity.
I don't operate quads. I ride responsibly and am considerate of where I ride and of the needs of my enviroment.
I used to be the majority, today this isn't true. As an off-road rider, in the eyes of many, I am grouped with quad operators.
Off-roading as it is today should be heavily restricted in order to save our wilderness from destruction by irresponsible quad operators.
This does not mean closing every trail/dirt-road in the desert.
We need people educated in the current misuse of OHV's to pass legistration that will stop these irresponsible groups from entering our forests and deserts in the first place.
These laws need to be enforced.
IMO, Quads have messed up a healthy, Challenging, athletic sport.
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Off-Width Loving Crack Whore
Trad climber
SLO
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If you guys really want to see some serious stupidity you should come out to the Oceano Dunes (often referred to as Pismo) sometime.
True the devastation is not "as bad" because they are ripping up huge piles of sand that are constantly changing shape due to wind and rain, but GOOD GOD are these people retarded. Hours and hours of driving/riding around in sand completely drunk, and then crawling into their 40 ft RV/Toy Hauler so they can watch T.V. amd get even more wasted.
Luckily they are confined to one area, but someone always ends up killing themselves in what gets labeled as a "tragic accident".
When in fact the only "tragic accident" is that these morons are allowed to breed thus passing on their stupidity.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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NeverSurfaced's link above is to a discussion thread at an off-road rider's board. They are discussing THIS ST thread, saying things like:
"Wow... they are a bunch of whining little girls w/ filthy mouths. It's kinda scary though to hear from people with such hatred to our sport."
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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The world is getting smaller every day & we’re all fighting for our little piece of it.
I can see the argument from both sides of the fence.
I don’t really feel like re-posting everything I wrote over at ThumperTalk here – if you really give a sh#t you can read it in the tread I linked above.
Rest assured though, as riders we’re all very concerned about policing our “sport” to try and preserve the access we currently have.
As climbers we’re not all that different…
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ha, that's funny, I just read the Thumpertalker threads. Motorheads vs. dirtbags, good stuff!
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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As Minerals used to say: Vroom, vroom!
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Khanom, Breathe in, breathe out. repeat. Does your mother know you are kind of a dick? It seems as though you need a vacation from your incredible lifestyle, bro. I bet that you are missing out on alot while you observe all you despise. I may be "dim" and my life according to you{and you are the expert on life, right?} may be in need of some reflection, especially after looking at your blog. bwahaha!
My life is perfect, because I accept it as it is.
I checked out your website/blog. You've got some great skills with managing and updating the site. If you ever are in the Tahoe area email me and lets go climb. When I make it down to the Mammoth area I'll drop you a line, and I'll leave my XR 650 at home.
Chill out and find a better camp spot.
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brrraaaaap bitch
Sport climber
canyon country
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hey f@ck all you guy you say were trashing the world look at everest its trashed your damn oxygen cans and sh#t cause of you as#@&%es so quite you bitchen. braaaaaap braaaaaaaaaap
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kelly slater
climber
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you guys sound like the hate mongrals of friends of hope valley
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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bb another moron from dumb f-istan.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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A cross forum war! At least they sent their best and brightest....... why start small?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Russ: Is it time to LEB them?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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I bet they have some fantastic sourdough recipes over there on DirtThumper.com (or whatever it's called)
Maybe that fertile ground needs to be mined...... Let' start with Lost Arrow to soften up their hardened positions and then send in LEB for a mind bending mop up.
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WBraun
climber
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I second that!
I will be going out there to practice my back hoeing skills before my big OSHA exam next week.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Alright, everyone play nice. Besides, the average dirtbike rider outweighs the average climber by about 50lbs, so I’d say odds are in the biker’s favor.
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WBraun
climber
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Not true
Backhoe is way heavier with me on it and has a mean swing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Not if they have to hold the throttle,...
(hate mongrals???) LOL LOL
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Just dangle a Bud out in front of them and...crash...I picture a beer belly launching off the offending vehicle and uh, guzzling sounds...several burps...animosity diffused!
MONGRELS yes THEY look like MONGRELS. Now Mongers are a totally different breed...ha ha ha.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Come on Werner, you really ready to tangle with these guys:
They’d eat your backhoe with you on it!
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WBraun
climber
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Hahahahaha yeah you might be right.
But then again you haven't seen everything yet.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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By the way, quad riders (aka quadtards) are to the riding community what gym rats are to the climbing community:
Annoying, dangerous and just generally in the way…
Don’t be fooled though, those guys in that picture are top-notch athletes!
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Enzo
climber
California
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"Re: OHV riders... YOU SUCK! Jul 31, 2007, 01:32pm PST
Author:
hossjulia
Trad climber
From: Eastside
Khanom,
Next time you see this, call the sheriff's department. 760-932-7549. It is illegal to ride an OHV off of established roads in the Inyo.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!"
Absolutely! &
BTW, Is the "road" up to Picnic Valley in the B'Milk "established?"
It was a lot better before so many "climbers" drove their 4wds up there. What a dumb rude thing to do.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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NeverSurfaced,
I rode two wheels for years but tired of carrying all my climbing gear on my back so got a quad.
Watch those generalizations.
It ain't the tool, but how you use it.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Hey khanom, try checking out the link I posted above. You might be surprised that there is some intelligent conversation going on there.
Otherwise, perhaps you can send Donny oh the Ringtail or Dr. Kodos over as the Supertopo Envoy.
Get off your high horse you self-important prick (sorry, that’s the Black Label talking – aw hell no it’s not – you’re a prick :)
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Hey Ron – I knew I’d catch some flack over that one. It was half in jest, I have friends who ride quads – responsibly.
Quads have a bad wrap here in Southern California primarily due to the stereotypical “quad rider” who is often considered the bane of the off-roading community.
Quads are cool, sometimes people aren’t - just like anything…
Except guns of course, guns are just plain evil ;)
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah guns
Fuking guns
Wasn't it some ass'hole that invented gunpowder and got the nobel peace prize.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Damn it Werner, you fell in the Hanoi bamboo-pit I dug for Ron. Now what am I supposed to do?
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah I know
But those guns are so gay.
Any idiot can shoot one off.
Now swords and bows and arrows .......
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Alfred Nobel was born in 1835 Werner,....
gunpowder?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Hey Ron, just got myself a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail .45
She's so purty...
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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"Wasn't it some ass'hole that invented gunpowder and got the nobel peace prize."
Gunpowder predates the Nobel prize by what, a thousand years?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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dyno- mite!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nobel was born in 1833, and invented dynamite. He also made an enormous fortune manufacturing dynamite and other industrial chemicals, which he used to endow the Nobel Prizes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Nobel
Despite popular belief, he doesn't seem to have endowed the Peace Prize out of guilt - the things he invented and made mostly weren't used in warfare until after his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize
Tiger traps and punji sticks everywhere, apparently.
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WBraun
climber
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Yep sharp hook
Caught em all ......... :-)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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khanom writes: am I really a prick??
It is not that exclusive a club here on the Taco....
as a fellow STP™™™ (SuperTopoPrick) glad to meet you.
I was crowned a prick back in the glorious days of the Wings of Steel threads....
MtYoung writes:
By the way, I for one appreciate Russ's participation in this whole discussion. I don't know that I'd like him in person, he seems like a sarcastic, ascerbic, arrogant prick online, but at least he is an arrogant prick with the courage not to duck the issues.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Naw, you’re not a prick, (well truth told I don’t know for sure – but I’ll go out on a limb here), I’m sure you’re a nice guy / gal.
Like I said, that was just the Scotch talking.
Shortly after posting I accidentally fell into my own punji pit & shot myself in the foot. I just woke up in a puddle of my own sick, having pissed myself & am inexplicitly missing one shoe & one sock…
Trust me, there is a lot of “self awareness” in the OHV community and responsible riders make a concerted effort to reduce impact as much as possible.
Cheers!
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Ah – ah ha ha ha.
Holy hypocrisy bat man!
I scrolled up to check out a couple of your earlier posts & read as you railed someone about how much cooler your life was than theris & check out your blog, blah, blah, blah…
So I checked out your blog and at the bottom of the “exploring” page found a video titled:
“One of the things I love to do is explore back roads in National Forests. Here’s a short, poor quality, not too exciting clip (2.1 mb) of what that’s like.”
Of you flying down a dirt road in your oversized van.
Ah! You’re an OHV user!
Ha ha – now I’m sure of it. You ARE a prick!
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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Dr. Taco pleads for calm.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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never surfaced....good catch. "Logging roads" suck?
A scarred up POS like "Serenity" looks "Good" to someone I'm sure. Not to me...
The problem I see on both threads is that "The Whole" gets blamed for the actions of "A Few" (ie, I'll never be on Everest)...why "punislate" the rest of us?
Of course, I have a stake in this "claim".
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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"All men are hypocrites. The difference is that some admit it. I, myself, do not." H.L. Mencken
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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It sucks when high impact people ruin it for everyone. When someone does high visibility impacts, regualations and banishment often follow.
Maybe we can get DP a quad?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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I've held my tongue so far, but this really got to me:
The problem I see on both threads is that "The Whole" gets blamed for the actions of "A Few"
Why should it matter what the ratio is? There's a lot of OHV riders doing a lot of damage (and not giving a sh#t.) Anyway, a number of the OHV riders here are acknowledging that it's *not* a minority of their fellow riders that are making a mess.
And as for the argument about the irresponsible folks being all kids without a sense of the long-term, who don't know any better - that's a bunch of bull. I've seen plenty of young to middle-aged men at it, too - typically with their younger friends or relatives. And it's the older guys leading the pack.
But the main thing that bugs me is this: it's *not* the same impact as renegade folks with other agendas (such as climbers). My family has a wooded hilly property in the Berkshires of Mass. Aside from a few chalk marks, if renegade climbers were to sneak onto the cliffs there, we would never be the wiser. I know for a fact that locals sometimes come in and take a dip in the pond. So what? They're not hurting anyone. But when the four-wheelers tear through, scaring my friends, rutting up the property (and I'd bet they're the ones who rip down the no-trespassing signs) - that f*#king sucks! I've chased them down and told them to stay off our property. In the end, the only thing that stopped them was putting fences over the areas where they like to cut in off the road, so it's harder for them to get in now. But god damn, how can you say this is just like climbers?
I've climbed on private property that wasn't mine. I made a point to be respectful, and never had a problem. Sure, in one case, politics intervened, and I was asked to stay off. I respected that request. I see *no* respect from these ATV folks.
GO
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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GO-problem is the case could be made against climbing just the same. Plenty of grad students with an EIS loaded up...
Just go to Camp 6 on the Nose...friggin' disgusting, even just months after they went up and dredged it out with Tyvek suits on...I'm not even going into "The Pinning"...a "before" and "after" pic of the Happys might illuminate the situation better...I remember the halcyon days of '91...
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travelin_light
Trad climber
california
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I have never seen an area get more thrashed than with ATV's. Its hard to even imagine how they are worried about invisisble frogs but yet they let all of this destruction occur everywhere.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Really?
OK, so you flying down a narrow, overgrown fire road in an oversized van (down by the river!) at 20mph is any different than this:
I fail to see the difference?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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426, did you miss the fact that these ATVers were on private property, with signs posted, and continued to tear through the property until the fences went in?
Anyway, your argument is complete bullshit and you know it. The only ones affected by a mess on the Nose are other climbers. ATVers impact *everyone*, and they don't give a sh#t. It's all about their fun in the moment - damn any other groups, damn the property owners, damn the future impact of their actions on access to their own user-group, damn the environment. All that matters is their fun. That kind of mindset just sucks.
GO
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Wow, a lot of Holier than thou attitudes here…
“when I climb I’m very respectful, and so is everyone else”
“when you ride you’re destructive, and so is everyone else”
Why are they always having clean-up days on the Captain?
Why have there been threads discussing so & so abandoning fixed lines & equipment for years after a failed attempt to free a line?
Why are there threads about chipping?
Why are there threads about bolting?
Why are there threads about people trampling the soil and destroying bushes with crash pads?
Why have parks like Joshua Tree going to great lengths to create & maintain designated climbers trails to minimize impact?
You guys seem to forget that I climb, you can’t bull s** me on this.
I’m not saying that irresponsible OHV use doesn’t have an impact, but a lot of you are taking the stance the climbing has practically no impact at all.
So let me know what you’d like then?
Are we saying that vehicles of any type should not be taken off the pavement?
Are 4x2 vans OK to ride on fire roads but motorcycles aren’t?
Just a few weeks ago I was riding past a nice green meadow on a single track in one of my favorite riding locals. I noticed that someone had ridden through the meadow & created quite a mess. Thing was though that the tracks were obviously from a truck, not a motorcycle. So by that logic would it be OK for me to assert that only motorcycles should be allowed to ride there and motorcycles shouldn’t. By your reasoning that would be the next logical step, no?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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“Further, a not insignificant segment of the OHV user group seems, in my experience, to be one that generally doesn't care about things like litter. I've personally picked up hundreds if not thousands of beer cans at sites where there is also damage by OHVs. Maybe it's not this user group exclusively -- I find plenty of crap where there has been little or no OHV usage, and I certainly can't prove that one way or another. But for me there is a strong correlation between beer cans, cigarette butts, and other crap and evidence of OHV traffic.”
That statement is made out of pure ignorance.
A lot of the people I’ve ridden with have been way more environmentally aware than people I’ve climbed with.
Come on dude, you’ve got a very narrow point of view here. I climb AND ride, so guess what – I’m right & you’re wrong!
I WIN!!! Stick a fork in her, she’s done!!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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OHV use has a much, much greater impact overall.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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"426, did you miss the fact that these ATVers were on private property, with signs posted, and continued to tear through the property until the fences went in?"
Yeah, and I apologize for my fellow riders. Those guys suck, but don't hold me accountable, I ride at Houston Valley ORV park, exclusively....it seems you are doing exactly what I said, blasting the Whole over the actions of Few.
I could point to a few areas that were closed because of "irresponsible climbers"...but I'm not going to win any hearts and minds. No one wanted to bite on my Serenity hook? No one was in the Happies in the early 90's? I don't think any of those points are bullshit personally...especially the EIS.
Mebbe if the thread was titled "ATV riders" my feathers would be a little less ruffled. ;)
"Nobody is innocent here, but to say everybody is equally guilty is bunk."
Uh, that's my point... now why did Williamson get closed again? (rhetorical)
Let's hang together, because surely we'll hang seperately....
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ADK
climber
truckee
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The only way to responsibly use an ATV is to dismantle it. You lazy mongrols should find a new hobby, preferably one which doesnt negatively affect everything around you(humans and environment).
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Wow, ad hominem and all.
Don't forget David Brower and The Sierra Club also had a rift...over "impact"
--my v6 spews more fumes than my 4 stroke ever will...
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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OK – I’ll try to do this point by point
NeverNever, then I'm getting the impression you're stupid or desperately hungover. Would you like me to spell it out for you?
I’m both by the way, thanks for asking…
1. I never go off road. You can call it overgrown if you like (it really isn't), but I'm not making a new trail or road. My van isn't even capable of it, period. ATVs (I'm gonna just use that term,it's more accurate) are designed to go off road.
Just about 100% of OHV travel here in California is limited to designated trails and/or approved “open areas” (i.e. dry lake beds). Cross country riding doesn’t really exist anymore.
2. If I drove by your campsite, even at that incredible, mind-bending speed, while you were sleeping, you'd likely not wake up. Quads and bikes, especially of course 2-strokes, are ridiculously loud. That's clearly part of the appeal.
Most dirt bikes don’t even have head lights, so night riding isn’t an option. There are a-holes however that do pull into camp in the middle of the night and make a lot of noise and/or start revving there bikes at 5:00am. I’m no fonder of that than you are. But really, a-holes running their generators in their campers is a much more common annoyance. I say we ban them too!
3. This is a subtle one, so I don't expect you'll get it. But I'm not driving down that road for recreation. I was camping up there. That I like to explore these roads is combined -always- with a need to find some place to stay. You could well argue that I have no business doing that, and on some level I would actually agree. But to me it's living more than it is recreation, and that removes a bit of the frivolity. You're naturally welcome to rip into this point, 'cause I'd like to explore that question further.
Hmmm… too subtle.
So what, I don’t care why you’re using the road, whether to camp or explore or whatever. Isn’t that the point of living in the “land of the free”? Do your thing dude – I just don’r know why you’ve gotta bash me doing mine…
4. Look at that bike, and the dust being kicked up. This rider doesn't notice or doesn't care about the damage to this road. My van may be big and heavy, but you will only ever see tire tracks from my passing, not ruts or gouges. It's hard to believe that something that weighs a ton (literally) would do less damage than a bike, but it's true and you can see the effect very clearly in the photo. Maybe damaging an existing road is not a big deal, but we're talking about overall impact here.
Actually, I’ve only been up that particular fire road twice, but in that time I’ve never seen another group of bikes. I have however run across a 4x4 jeep club & a Suzuki Samurai 4x4 club on that road. I guess your real issue here is with the 4x4 guys. I say we ban them too!
I'm sure there are other points that could be made even without going into the question of mindset.
What, I’m sorry… I was busy drooling on myself. Come again.
Remember, I'm not saying the OHV user group is 100% irresponsible, I'm simply saying taken as a whole, it is more so than climbers and demonstrably has a greater negative impact on the environment. The evidence is so clear I can't quite believe you don't get it.
OK, so here we go – There are far more OHVers than climbers. Agreed?
There are far more on-road vehicles than off-road. Agreed?
So, if we’re simply going after the segment of the population with the biggest environmental impact, we should actually start by banning on-road vehicles. Agreed?
You know, The absorbative & reflective properties of asphalt have a much larger effect on “global warming” that dirt does. So I’m thinking we should tear out all of the roads. Agreed?
Then we’ll ban all of the OHVs and travel by foot & horseback. Agreed?
And my statement is NOT made out of ignorance, it is made out of experience. Maybe I'm wrong in attributing the trash to OHV'ers, but I really don't think so. "More environmentally aware"? who are you kidding?!?!
Riders get together for trail maintenance and often pack-out MORE than they pack in. See, the majority of responsible riders are ALWAYS on their best behavior because our access is threatened on a daily basis. Hell, I’ve packed trash out of a State Park that was left by Boy Scouts. Yeah, you heard me, Boy Scouts. I thinking we should disband the Boy Scouts. Agreed?
Do a study, conduct a poll. I'll bet you my van that a greater percentage of climbers will demonstrate a better understanding and practical application of LNT than OHVers.
Perhaps, that’s true – but try this one on. Some of the trails up in Tahoe & Eldorado NF have been temporarily closed due to OHV use due to the high fire danger. Funny thing is though, of all of the recorded fires in the area, they can only cite 1 instance where a wildfire was caused by a dirtbike. The case involved a teenager without a sprak arrestor in WASHINGTON STATE! The majority of the man made fires were caused by CAMPERS!!!!!
So lets ban camping. Agreed?
Your earlier post also very neatly proves an important point -- go to any OHV site and count the number of threads that are concerned with reducing OHV impact.
Yes, we are concerned. Again though, OHV users outnumber climbers significantly. This is an issue of sheer numbers. Like I said, if we’re going to target the groups that have the largest environmental impact, you’ve got a lot of work to do before you get to my bike….
QED!
By the way – I’ve read through a few more posts and NONE OF YOU have addressed the specific issues that I & 426 have cited re: specific climber impact.
Interesting…
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Hrmph ;), I'm just kind of piggybacking on Bluering upthread...
"I wonder what we'd say if we were criticized because a couple of climbers grid-bolted an area, or brought power-drills to certain area, thus ruining access for everyone. We'd say, well, we're not all like that, we can police ourselves."
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travelin_light
Trad climber
california
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All I can say is I am glad I chose a sport that at least has chance of correcting its wrong doings and bad apples.
Good luck tread heads...argue all you want about not destroying everything...you will stop riding long before we stop climbing.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Not so sure about that TL.
Vegetation regrows and heals itself faster than pin scars...
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dirtbag
climber
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In some areas, Ron. In other areas, particularly many deserts, soils are quite fragile and can take decades to recover. In the meantime, exotic species often creep in and permanently change the native desert landscape into something else.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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pic of the Happys might illuminate the situation better...I remember the halcyon days of '91...No one was in the Happies in the early 90's?
heresy.....
everyone knows the happies were discovered by the Chinese sometime near the Renaissance. if you can still get an audience, ask that long tailed weasel with the white winter coat in that other canyon off east since '92......
so sad......
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John Moosie
climber
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Done some 4 wheeling...The Rubicon being one
Done some climbing
Done a lot more backpacking
I fully appreciate that there are offroaders who respect the environment and others. I use to ride with a group out of Ventura.
In my opinion, by far, off road use does more significant damage to the wilderness then any of the others. If they stuck to existing trails, then I would not have as much of a problem with them, but they don't. Maybe most do, but just one knucklehead can destroy in one day a whole lot of area which takes years to undo.
Until I started climbing, I had not even heard of pin scarring. Yes it is permanent, but non climbers will rarely even be aware of it. This is a minimal problem in my opinion. The two biggest things I think climbers do is to leave trash and create too many trails into an area. In recent years climbers have started paying attention to this, but in some instances regs had to be put into place to wake them up, such as requiring poop tubes on El Cap.
Every group has people that leave trash in the wilderness and needs reminders to stop it. Therefore the biggest concerns to me are; damage to vegetation and terrain, and noise. In some areas things grow back quickly, but the desert can take centuries to heal some types of scars. I hate going into an area that was pristine 20 years ago and finding multiple tracks through the meadows and creeks. I also hate having to listen to them. 20 years ago the number of OHVs was much smaller. Now, because of quads, they seem to be everywhere.
Climbers have had to wake up to their issues, but climbers issues mostly only affect other climbers. Will there ever be any non climbers on Everest? Doubtful. OHV use affects lots more people then just OHV users. I do appreciate your desire to recreate the way you want to, but if you dont bring the hammer down on people who abuse this type recreation, then the rest of us will. Ekats concerns are real. Khanoms concerns are real. They affect more people then the problems climbers have, therefore you would be advised to pay more attention. If Neversurfaced is a prime example of your group, then you will be shut down. It might take time, but it will happen.
And yes, I hate generators on RVs, even in campgrounds. Noise in the back country sucks. Quiet is a natural resourse and should be protected. The most obvious answer in my opinion is to license Quads and take the fees and provide more backcountry rangers whose job is to police the outlaws. Take these isues seriously, or you will be hosed.
Neversurfaced=LEB
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Mert Lawwill aka Al Baker
Social climber
Hemet, ca.
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Just to add a little of my two cents. I can see why people don't like anything to do with the "OHV" community. I myself now spend 85% of my time doing non-OHV activities mostly snowboarding, I hate it when I see un-educated hill billies out on there quad or "dirt bike" dis-respecting the land, by abusing the intended use of the land and not following rules. But after the snow is gone, one thing that I like to do is ride my legal green sticker bike, in approved USFS OHV riding areas. I.E kennedy meadows, the legal areas by mammoth, etc... Believe it or not, there are some people who ride in these areas who are PRO activists of keeping the A$$#0LES out. Myself being one of them. The same things that everyone in here is complaining about like, "motorcyle riders are tearing up an area that is illegal to ride on" or "they just ride around in circles making dust" etc.. are the same things that people like myself are trying to keep people from doing. But the thing to remember is that there is a large population of people that do not have an enviromental concious, moslty people who have been only riding for a few years and they don't have the respect, awarness, or coutesey that most experience respectable riders do. When I go a OHV area, I ride the trails that are connected to a larger group of trails forming a loop usually ranging from 50 to 100 miles of awsome terrain and amazing scenery. But I stay on the trails. I know most of you here already have an embedded sterotype of OHV riders, but on the flip side there are alot of OHV riders who have a sterotype of Climbers, or enviormental activists. But IMO what makes areas like these so awsome is the fact that they are multiple use land areas. The same place I ride my motorcyle during the summer, I can ride my snowmobile and snowboard during the winter. Sorry to rant, but please remember that not everyone is an idiot or an A$$#0LE. I and many of my friends are doing everthing we can to keep places unknown to masses of idots. Cuz just like a climbing spot if more and more people go there the more trashed it gets and the faster it gets closed down. And thats something that WE both have in common, Climbing or Riding no one wants their spot trashed or ruined.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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If Neversurfaced is a prime example of your group, then you will be shut down. It might take time, but it will happen.
Wow! Really?
Truth is I’m actually a prime example of a climber. Try searching my screen name here on Supertopo. Chances are you’ll discover that I’ve been lurking around here longer than the vast majority of you – that is however, besides the point.
By the way, since apparently my credibility as a human has been called into question, I worked for the California Conservation Corps for nearly 2 years in my youth. In that time I not only fought forest fires with agencies like the USFS & CDF, but built & maintained hiking trails in the FS & NPS systems. I’ve done restoration throughout burn areas and have personally planted upwards of 500 trees.
I’ve organized and/or participated in trail restoration from Northern California to Patagonia.
Now perhaps since I haven’t been lurking around Supertopo for awhile you might not be familiar with my tongue-in-cheek sarcasm (and these forums are lousy at conveying intonation) but I really find it hard to believe that you’re taking offence at my delivery.
You might not like what I have to say, but I don’t feel I’ve reacted in a way that would reflect negatively on the OHV community. If you’d like to discuss further please e-mail me directly at
neversurfaced@msn.com
” The most obvious answer in my opinion is to license Quads and take the fees and provide more backcountry rangers whose job is to police the outlaws. Take these isues seriously, or you will be hosed.’
All OHV vehicles in CA are registered as either street legal (with a license plate), green sticker or red sticker. We have to register our bikes every two years. Those funds as well as entrance fees to many OHV areas are supposed to be set aside for specific OHV use (i.e. rangers, trail maintenance, facilities, signs, gates, etc…). The sad truth is however, that much like our gas taxes that are supposed to be allocated to maintain the roads, the funds are funneled elsewhere to fund programs that have nothing to do with OHV use. Welcome to our nightmare – off roaders have been begging to have to funds properly distributed for years.
Neversurfaced=LEB
I don’t even know what that means…
“ there's an axiom in debating that once you've resorted to extreme generalizations, you've already lost. You really are desperate aren't you?”
You started this thread with an “extreme generalization” – What are you talking about????
Most of what you say above is pretty much nonsense, and many of your points are not at all related to the questions at hand, such as whether or not we ban automobiles. If you want to support that, well, I wouldn't mind at all to tell you the truth. But how is that relevant here? And banning camping?
My point was and has been that you seem pretty willing just to blame the woes of the world on OHV use. Truth is that a lot of damage that is blamed on OHVs is either the act of a limited group of people, who should be fined and have there vehicle impounded, or has nothing to do with OHVs at all (i.e. trash, fires, etc…)
” Honestly, the brute force and simplicity with which you try to make an argument is very consistent with my perception of the mentality of an OHV rider. You'll no doubt accuse me of being unable to rebut your post, but I'm afraid you're going to have to do better for me to see the point in spending my time.”
That’s a cop-out & you know it. My wide generalizations were intentional to point out the fact that your answer to someone waking you up with their motorcycle was to shotgun them. Who’s butal now?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Well said X15.
Can't we all just get along and 'share' the resources without judging how others do their thing in the great outdoors.
Bicycles still piss me off when they don't get over, though.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Amen to both of you!!!
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dirtbag
climber
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Pretending that all recreational uses have more or less equal impacts on resources is ludicrous.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dirt, but don't they all have just as much right to 'use' the land in a law-abiding manner?
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dirtbag
climber
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Blue, in a legalistic sense, yes. If you are doing so in a law-abiding manner, then you do have a right to do it.
But in a public policy sense of the way things should be, no.
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John Moosie
climber
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"Deja Fukkkingg Vu. Amazing at how old wreck.climbing topics get rehashed to death right here on stupidtaco. It's a losing battle NeverSurfaced. You are trying to get ignoranuses to actually think."
Hey thanks for calling me an ingnoranuse. Now I really want to hold a conversation with you.
.............................................
Neversurfaced, you sound like you are defending the A holes. You say things like
"Just about 100% of OHV travel here in California is limited to designated trails and/or approved “open areas” (i.e. dry lake beds). Cross country riding doesn’t really exist anymore."
Do you really think cross country riding isn't still a problem? What do you say to Khanom about what he is witnessing right now? Obvious Trails everywhere.
And what do you say about the noise problem besides " well gosh, RV generators make noise, shouldn't we ban those too"? That is a perfect example of how LEB argues. She deflects the problem onto something else and nothing is ever solved. If you want climbers to join OHVers in protecting access, then you need to answer questions straight up without deflecting them.
I am well aware that there are conscientious OHVers out there. I use to be one and know many. That doesn't mean there isn't still a problem.
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dirtbag
climber
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I'd rather save the land from halfwits who want or ride all over it.
Sorry, but OHV users do not have some kind of God-given right to sh#t on public resources.
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John Moosie
climber
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We draw the line on impact all of the time. We have noise ordinances for autos, for businesses, for lots of things. Just because it is difficult to do doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. If you don't police yourself, then someone else will.
Oh, and thanks again for calling me an ignoranus.
................................
Good post Stzzo. I agree
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John Moosie
climber
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We were posting at the same time.
You might not have wanted the conversation, but you joined it. I don't really care what you call me, I am trying to get you to see why people don't listen to you.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Ah legality.
Ah morality.
Ah conscience.
None of these things matter. What matters is how much $$$ the user group has, and industry lobbyists. Climbers wielding clout ?? Do not make me laugh. Manufacturers of these machines have more money than you or I, as do people who own horses, pack station businesses, and their clients.
The government is for sale. Coffee is brewing for you to smell :)
Next important controversy ?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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x15:Who is going to decide?
The Defenders of Wildlike and their 28 million in donations...
So I guess that Williamson question wasn't so rhetorical...rhyang, bingo.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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I'm not interested in OHV use in the least, and from an outsiders point of view, they do certainly seem to impact the land. But then, so does climbing, as has been discussed in the "What is an environmentalist?" thread. If you haven't read that thread, the jist is that supertaco posting climbers are by definition not also environmentalists.
Certainly the ways in which these two types of recreation impact the land are different and the degree is arguably different, but again, climbers critical of OHV users for environmental reasons are, necessarily, hypocrites. Just as some climbers view OHV use to be reprehensible, so too do some non-climbers view the installation of bolts, pitons, climber caused trail erosion, and rescues that require public expense. Many non-climbers think we climbers are pretty narcissistic and irresponsible.
I don't mean this as an attack, but I do think we climbers and would be environmentalists should take a good long look in the mirror. If we want to change the world, we should start with ourselves by setting an example. If we are not willing to do so, then live and let live.
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dirtbag
climber
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Don't equate the impacts of OHV use and climbing or other activities.
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brown unit
climber
whittier, ca
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we both have bad instances and people for both groups and wether we want to believe it or not the general public and the greenies don't care about the good things that the responsible climbers/ohvrs' do they will always focus on the negative aspects of both groups and this goes along with other activities like fishing camping etc.... if someone in that particular group does soemthing bad they will make it a point to try to get everyone out of the forest. it doesn't help bashing each others groups cuz we both have good and bad and we can try to police our own groups as much as we can but there will always be some that will never obide by the rules just human nature. but as a group as a whole we just need to find ways of preserving the areas we choose to do our specific recreation in wether it be ohv or climbing cuz if we don't start working as a whole we will eventually lose it all.
-J
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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exhaust breather....too funny
Moose, I'm not defending OHVers, just pointing out that we live in something of a glass house. I can't find the eKat post, so maybe it was deleted. If I remember correctly it was more about a-holes than anything else. A-holes on OHVs of course but there are a-hole jetskiers, boaters, golfers even, and yes, climbers too. I know some people who basically know nothing about climbing except for the fact that climbers feel entitled to drill holes in publicly owned cliffs and install permanent bolts. To them those climbers are complete a-holes.
Not to diminish eKat's bad experience. I did read it before and it sounded pretty bad.
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brown unit
climber
whittier, ca
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Bottom-Line...
If dumbshits on ATV's and other ORV's cannot police themselves, we will deny them access.
yeah, that's gonna work! NOT. you show your ingnorance when someone tries to say lets work together and you come up with "spare us"???? WTF? the whole forest does not belong to just you nor will it ever be
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John Moosie
climber
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LOL X15....You begin your conversation by calling people ignoranuses. What do you expect? For us to respect your position?
A four cylinder brain firing on one cyclinder.
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brown unit
climber
socal
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and you can spare us the holier than thou attitude
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brown unit
climber
socal
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don't worry i know i can't spell to save my life and my run-ons are terrible. so you have to result to personal attacks? i'm just wondering becasue no where in my responses did i ever attack anyone personally.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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This world doesn't belong to us, it belongs to our future generations.
Lets try our best not to destroy it, on all fronts.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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AC, by the same token, some other group will claim we climbers cannot police ourselves because of things like the Mt. Hood mess or the bolts or trail erosion or cliff flora destruction, and then a different "we" will deny us access.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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I guess the polarization that goes on in politics also applies to every goddamn thing you do.
You're either liberal or conservative
You're either an environmentalist or you have ANY impacts
You're either a naked, chalkless trad climber or a grid bolting sport climber
If you ride an OHV you trash the land, drink bud, smoke butts, and bone your daughter while listening to Molly Hatchet.
The truth is there is a continuum of beliefs and actions bewteen two poles, and rarely is one really at those poles. There may be concentrations of people at ends of the spectrums which cause problems. But in truth no sport climbers grid bolt and chip everything and no trad climber causes no impacts.
Sure there a bunch of bonehead OHVers. It is going to attract more of those types than climbing. But I've seen bonehead climbers though too (e.g. sh#t in a crack).
No one causes no impact. The trick is to minimize your impact, and act responsible, and encourage others to do so.
If you don't see the appeal of ATVs you haven't caught big air on one... fun.
People in other countries probably view all Americans as fat, beer swilling, dumb hicks. Just like all OHVers.
Edit: one thing I do know for sure, if you've got an "Off roaders for Bush" bumper sticker, chances are you're a selfish shortsighted dumbass.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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The worse part of this is the arrogant elitism a lot of you are throwing out there.
“I’ll do as I please & do my best to make sure you’re not allowed to do what you want, if for no other reason than I don’t like it.”
Some people have come forward with some real good points here – but a lot of you are still lumping all OHVers in the same category.
I never said there wasn’t a problem, if you spent 10 minutes on Thumpertalk and checked out some of the threads in the California section re: access you’d realize that for a large part we’re fighting the same battle.
RESPONSIBLE OHV users are doing there best to police & weed-out the dick heads that are phucking things up! The a-holes hurt OHV users by giving us a bad name a lot more than they hurt climbers. Believe me, the community feels the pain.
A lot of you (note: not ALL of you) are just taking the stance that “OHV users are reckless careless as#@&%es and should be banned every last one.”
Self policing? Is it really that easy?
Well I see the climbing community has done a sh#t job of policing itself, so since your self-appointed God Dean Porter climbed delicate arch (or whichever phucking arch it was) effective immediately climbing is banned from all National Parks. Since you as a community can’t police yourselves, climbing is now limited to gyms.
So how would you feel as a collective community being crucified due to the careless act of some a-hole on the cover of a Patagonia Catalog??
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Thanks Steve - Good post.
I was right there with you up to the Molly Hatchet comment.
Ragging on Molly Hatchet is where I draw the line. You just made this personal :)
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Fet....cool post. And you're reasoning is why I'm in the live and let live camp, but trying to nudge my way along the spectrum when I can.
GD. Nice pics but not a fair comparison. If you leave those ruts alone long enough they will simply disappear. By long enough I mean several decades. Posting pics of a few routes post bolt/chop bolt/rebolt wars would be more fair. The bolt holes climbers leave will be there for a very very long time.
There is a big asteroid with our number on it that is supposed to make a direct hit on earth some seven hundred and something years from now. It's a mathematical certainty unless we figure out how to move it or us. Those bolt holes will still be there when our future generations live and die in the big one.
All things change.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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For everyone that has participated in a semi-civilized, coherent & intelligent dialog here, agree or disagree, thank you.
To A. Crowley and those of you with the “W” mentality, kiss my ass.
I'm off to the X-Games...
Have a nice day – climb on!
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John Moosie
climber
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Sorry Neversurfaced, but I only see one or two here calling for a complete ban. I do see a lot of frustration which is probably keeping people from holding a decent dialog. I know I get frustrated with broad generalizations and name calling. X15 makes some good points, but they are lost when he starts by generally bagging on people. Kind of obvious, but It doesn't make me want to say, " hey, great post".
I understand that we can't stop everything and that both groups have good and bad. I still think OHVs have a bigger impact on more people. Like I say, the trash left on Everest or the bolts on El Cap do not affect me when I am not climbing, but destroyed meadows do. If you want climbers support, then you can't equate the two and you can't gloss over the problems of OHVers. Saying that there is not much of a problem when Khanom is sitting in the middle of it is glossing over the problem.
You would have gotten a lot more support if you would have said " yep, there are some A holes out there and I don't like it. We work hard to stop this type thing" and then given some examples. Instead you basically said we can't complain because climbers also have problems.
That doesn't work for me.
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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moosie,
both myself and NS did say that we have a big problem, hell were the first to admit that ALOT of the OHV population is disrespectful to the envirnoment as well as other people that use the land. we never said that there wasn't a problem. We have to deal with the dumbass OHV population as well and it pisses us off as too
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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I agree with you completely, Dropline, however the point I was making was that what may seem like regular routine for climbers is indeed 'impact.' Dean Potter on Delicate arch is VERY small on the scale of damage for the actual event, however it is MUCH more of an impact globally than the rutted hills. Those hills will regrow, some of them may not get the chance, and the NPS may ban climbing in deserts after they see how we treat them.
Both parties are at fault, but the OHV'ers are not quite as pretty as us :D They are always an eyesore as I drive up the 395, but tolerance is something we should all practice. I did my regular routine the other day at my local crag, dixon, for a good ol afternoon workout. A freind and I carried out a full pack of trash, mostly climber - caused. I wore my rope and rack back to my car so that i could carry it all.
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John Moosie
climber
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Hey Brown unit, I don't want to be a hard case, but Neversurfaced did say that there isn't much of a problem with people not using existing trails while Khanom is sitting right in the middle of it.
Just saying Bro, thats all.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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You would have gotten a lot more support if you would have said " yep, there are some A holes out there and I don't like it. We work hard to stop this type thing" and then given some examples. Instead you basically said we can't complain because climbers also have problems.
Thanks John-
I thought I had clearly addressed that, but when I entered the discussion (1) I didn’t bother to take the time to read every post and (2) I was reacting immediately to some of the broad generalizations and calls for execution. Perhaps I entered the room swinging. I was a bit in the defensive mode.
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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ok i might have not caught that BUT..... i will admit that we do have a problem with alot of OHV'rs. but alot of it depends on the areas that are ridden. in the desert OHV areas they are designated as open which means you can go any which way so it's pretty much all whopped out but it was designated to be that way by BLM or FS. other places are designated as stay on trails only. and for the most part they are stayed upon. but i will say that even though the area is trail only there are those people that will just go off and make their own trails for the sake of doing it. and yeah that is a huge problem.
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John Moosie
climber
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Its cool.
Now I know of a new climbing area near me but I need to borrow a quad to carry my drill in and the 200 bolts I think this area will need along with my rifles so I can plink at the beer bottles I plan to carry plus scare away the raptors that are nesting. I might need to drive through some private property and a couple of meadows but I promise not to throw too many donuts while I drive over those endangered frogs. Can you hook me up?
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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i got your back!
wait can you do it on a bike you will never see me set foot on a lawnmower LOL i have more pride than that
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John Moosie
climber
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Hey, I never thought of using a lawnmower. I could blaze a trail while I go. As for the bike.... naw....I gots no skilz and a whole shiz load of stuff to carry. Like my generator and a refrigerator for my beer. I wonder if a lawnmower would pull my trailer. Aw man....its starting to sound like I might need to break out the FJ60.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Alright, so what is it about those doughnuts anyway? What is the appeal of riding around in a tight little circle going nowhere? Is it to mimic a dog chasing it's own tail? Is it the dust and noise factor? Is it like when you're a little kid and you spin yourself around and around to get dizzy because it's fun? Is it to cause vomiting in order to empty the stomach for more Buds?!
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Hey Brown unit, I don't want to be a hard case, but Neversurfaced did say that there isn't much of a problem with people not using existing trails while Khanom is sitting right in the middle of it.
John we must have posted at the same time, I missed this one…
I essentially said earlier exactly what Brown Unit mentioned above. Desert areas are either considered “open areas” OR you need to stay on designated trails as is common on most USFS land. Cross Country riding, as is my understanding, is virtually dead in California (as an accepted, legal practice).
Now, I missed the post in which Khamsandwich claims to have been sitting amidst a bunch of people terrorizing him on bikes, but I would like to know how he knows that they weren’t using a designated trail system. Riding is very popular in the Mammoth area and there are a lot of designated trails there.
You’d be surprised how many times riders encounter equestrians, hikers, mountain bikers, et al, who claim “hey you’re not supposed to be up here on that thing” when in fact they’re on a designated motorcycle trail. It happens quiet often…
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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I love to climb, ride street/dirt, board, mtnbike and enjoy the out doors in many different ways.
There are selfish ignorant people that do these things as well.
They are in every community.
It is a responsible act to acknowledge this behaviour and condemn it.
Having climbed for most of my adult life and ridden off-road vehcles for even longer I can honestly say that the people I have met riding whine alot less than the people I have met climbing.
Just an observation.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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BlueRing writes:
"Dirt, but don't they all have just as much right to 'use' the land in a law-abiding manner?"
Not MY F#CKING PROPERTY!!!!!!
Off-Road Ass-Hole has NO respect for my property.
Off-Road Ass-Hole has repeatedly tore down my fences, tore down "no trespassing" signs, and tore down my fruit trees just so Ass-Hole can spin his idiot wheels for a few seconds.
NeverSurfaced writes:
"Rest assured though, as riders we’re all very concerned about policing our “sport” to try and preserve the access we currently have."
---------and
"Trust me, there is a lot of “self awareness” in the OHV community and responsible riders make a concerted effort to reduce impact as much as possible."
Not once, not even ONE time has a single member of the "OHV community" ever come by MY place to help ME un-do the damage that Off-Road Ass-Hole has done to MY property.
But when "the OHV community" feels like tearing something up, they have no problem finding my place.
My interaction with "the OHV community" has been 100% negative. These dicks act as if they have a RIGHT to tear up my property just because they spent a couple thousand dollars on a stupid machine.
How 'bout this, NeverSurfaced? How 'bout this weekend you come over here to my place and do your part to "police" the "OHV community"?
YOU can post watch, and when YOU see trespassers YOU can call the cops. Then YOU can wait several hours for the cops to show up (assuming they ever do). Then YOU can listen to the cop say something stupid like "We can't just arrest a yellow helmet, you'll have to give us a better ID than that".
Off-Road Ass-Hole doesn't have a readable license plate on his machine, and Off-Road Ass-Hole always wears a disguise (a full-face helmet) rendering positive ID impossible.
And "the OHV community" does a piss-poor job of policing itself!
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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It amazes me how people lump all off roaders as the same. There seems to be many people stuck on themselves and think that their view is all that matters. Who cares if it doesn't look fun to you? Some people ride for the enjoyment and a good workout. Try handling a 250lb machine through the woods for 3-4 hrs, then get back to me on how it is for lazy %^#$*^#*. Just because they have engines doesn't mean it's easy.
It's also amazing that some here seem to want to draw the line of destruction right after their sport. Anything that causes the same or less destruction as climbing is OK. Anything above that is bad. WTF?
Khonam- even old dirt roads get washed out when it rains. Your constant driving on them keeps the vegitation from growing thus contributing to erosion. Driving on them after a rain will create ruts. I'm sure your van weighs more than any quad or dirtbike. Get off your high horse. Why did you say you wanted a shotgun? Looking to take out an OHVer? BTW, set a gun in a corner and tell me how many people it will kill.
Why don't you draw a map for all the OHVer's to let them know where you think it's acceptable to ride. Who are you to decide how much noise is too much? Maybe someone is trying to enjoy the great silent outdoors and doesn't want to hear a climber pounding pitons? Again, it's all relative and you seem to think that it stops at climbing.
You said "I'm trying to find a level of acceptance, I'm just not being very successful". From what I have read, you never will. That is sad!
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
Since you are a liberal with a mental disorder, who the F@#K is going to listen to you. Why don't you see a shrink.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Chaz, that sucks.
But again some climbers have exhibited the same behavior. There was a big brouhaha on gunks.com a few years ago when some private property owners were going to close their land to climbers. Some climbers posted they were going to climb on private land, even if it was against the wishes of the property owners, unless they were assaulted or arrested.
The local representative of the Access Fund said they were going to sue to retain access. How absurd.
Some people are self absorbed and self entitled
a-holes....they might be OHVrs, climbers, anything.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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Mtnmun, you are soooo far off base by calling me a liberal. Thank you for the laugh though. I just about spit my beer out.
Next time, how about adding something worth while to the topic?
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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""Alright, so what is it about those doughnuts anyway? What is the appeal of riding around in a tight little circle going nowhere? Is it to mimic a dog chasing it's own tail? Is it the dust and noise factor? Is it like when you're a little kid and you spin yourself around and around to get dizzy because it's fun? Is it to cause vomiting in order to empty the stomach for more Buds?!""
doing donuts is cool becasue you get to throw rocks all over peoples brand new trucks and you get to dust everyone out of the area LOL j/k moosie i refer to quads as lawnmowers becasue thats about the best use for a quad.
and chaz let me know and i WILL help you re-build your fence all you have to do is ask. im not skurd of a little hard work.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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I appreciate the offer, B*U, but I have that fence problem taken care of. After having Off-Road Ass-Hole tear it down twice I piled up a stack of rail-road ties so just tearing down the fence won't help them.
I shouldn't have to do that, but like my Lawyer tells me, "if you have a donkey you're going to get flies".
Off-Road Ass-Hole has alot in common with sh#t-flys.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Chaz,
Where (generally speaking) do you live?
Your user profile only says So Cal. It appears as maybe you’ve got a problem with local kids. X15x15’s suggestions were good and on-spot. Blatant property damage sounds like the work of teenagers. E-mail me at neversurfaced@msn.com
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Hey mental disordered, good thing you didn't spit out yer coors light. You wouldn't want to waste your brain elixer.
Your dirt bike puts out as much pollution in an hour as a car does in a year. You will live longer if you buy a mountain bike and peddle around the woods.
Are there hills in your part of Ohio? Any good climbing or bouldering there in the buckeye state?
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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""What is a "Brown Unit", and what do they know about fences?"" long story about brown unit and as you can imagine, and NS can chime in on this one, it deals with hopping or jumping fences
but as for me i know nothing about fences but like i said if someone asks for help if i can i will
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Your dirt bike puts out as much pollution in an hour as a car does in a year
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
How do you figure? My gas tank is 2.4 gallons, and I get (pending terrain) anywhere from 50 – 70 miles on a tank. That’s between 21 & 29 miles per hour. How does 1 hour of my bike = 1 year of a car. Nice math there bro – put down the slide ruler.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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"What is a "Brown Unit", and what do they know about fences?"" long story about brown unit and as you can imagine, and NS can chime in on this one, it deals with hopping or jumping fences
but as for me i know nothing about fences but like i said if someone asks for help if i can i will
Ha ha – Don’t forget not wearing helmets & riding with flip flops!
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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""Ha ha – Don’t forget not wearing helmets & riding with flip flops! ""
hahahahaa and the 10 guys sharing one quad
quadamalins
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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BTW, just got back from X-Games. The guy Scott Murray didn’t pull off the backflip. Buried the nose on the landing but didn’t look like he landed too hard (easy for me to say from the nose-bleed).
Worse than that though was a guy on the Skateboard Big Air that decked from about 50 flat to the bottom of the ramp. Blew his shoe right off of him.
Seeing that made my blood run cold – I don’t like seeing people get hurt like that.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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I'm in the Crafton Hills of east Redlands.
You're right, the problem around here is almost all "kids", like under 30.
Most of them live on the opposite side of an aprox two mile square un-developed area bordering my yard (I think). Their parents buy their little brats a *quad-runner* and for about five dollars worth of gas, their little bastard will leave them alone for the day.
But the parents I've met are just as bad if not worse, than their kids.
Twice, after chasing away Off-Road Ass-Hole, Father Of Off-Road Ass-Hole has paid me a visit, (both times riding a *quad-runner* AFTER KNOWING I don't want those things on my property) to threaten to kick my ass for swearing at his Precious Angel.
So I swear at him too.
Once the Old Man told me "at least they're not robbing people's houses".
That's the attitude.
Instead of raising the kid right, they will make excuses for him.
I'm through talking to Off-Road Ass-Hole.
Now I just send the Dobermans after them. Anybody illiterate enough that they can't read even ONE "no trespassing" sign after riding past seven deserves to get bit.
The Dobies love this. My female can hear a two-stroke from a mile away and she begs to be let out: "I've been a good dog. PLEASE let me out so I can kill somebody".
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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yeah i heard he messed up a throttle cable? yeah seeing guys get hurt like that is scary
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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the skateboard big air crash looked like falling while soloing. Shoes blown off?! F%$#, I want to see his mri films.
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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chaz i am pretty sure it is illegal to ride anywhere in riverside county so i don't know what the best way to get the LEO involved but they could get a hefty ticket for trespassing. one of the only ways to really deter people is to hit them in the pocketbooks
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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The place just went silent. I’d be amazed if the guy didn’t rupture his spleen. When he hit the deck sh#t (I guess it was his shoes but it looked like a lot more than just shoes) blew right off his body.
It really made me sick to see it – I can’t believe he walked away…
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Chaz, you don’t have an OHVer problem, you have a people problem. Buying a Chinese Pep Boys Quad and tearing up your neighbors yard doesn’t make you any more of a rider than buying a harness and some shoes then heading over to the gym spewing BS makes you a climber.
Sorry dude, just the way I see it.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Never Surfaced, I stand corrected, here is the official scoop.
Pollution report on offroad vehicles
http://www.naturaltrails.org/issues/factsheet_pdfs/POLLUTION-703.pdf
Dirty Machines - Dirt bikes, ATVs and snowmobiles are a major source of air and noise pollution nationwide. Most of these machines are powered by antiquated two-stroke engines that burn a combination of gas and oil. According to the EPA, the average two-stroke dumps 25 to 30 percent of its fuel unburned into the air and water. The California Air Resources Board concluded that operating a two-stroke motor for about 7 hours generates as much smog-forming pollution as driving a modern car more than 100,000 miles. The EPA estimates that dirt bikes, snowmobiles and ATVs alone produce 10 percent of all hydrocarbon pollution from vehicles nationwide. Air pollution from these machines also threatens public health and has been directly linked to respiratory disease, cancer and premature death.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Brown Unit,
It is illegal.
To ride legally on someone's private property that's not your own, you need to have the property owner's written consent on your person.
Getting the Local Cops to enforce this is another matter.
I've heard all the Cop Excuses. We're too busy. You can't ID the guy (because he was wearing a full-face helmet). Making contact with Off-Road Ass-Hole to ask him if he has written consent is "harassment", etc.
I know of at least a half-dozen legal places to ride off-road around here AND I DON'T EVEN RIDE OFF-ROAD!
-Tenaja Falls
-Raisor Road
-Johnson Valley
-Arrowhead Pinnacles
-Glamis
-Holcombe Valley
There is no shortage of places to ride legal. But riding legal is no fun.
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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chaz
you are right those that ride illegally are the same people that we have our problems with as well. they ruin it for the rest of us. like i said before no matter what you do or what you say people will always do what they want no matter what anyone else says, it's just human nature. have you ever thought about finding their homes and contacting the LEO with possible pictures and file a police report? if they recieve the report in the mail or hand delivered by LEO it may make them think twice
and for the person that posted (and then removed) the f-ing spikes in the road are you that much of a puss that you would resort to causing possible bodily injury??
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Brown Unit,
I saw the link before 395 deleted it, and that's not how I roll. I don't want to see anybody get hurt over something foolish. Before long these guys will hurt themselves without my help.
I've not had ANY satisfaction working with the Local Cops.
BUT I have been working with the County Supervisors. A couple years ago they passed what I believe are a set of decent, if watered down off-road regs.
Two of my recomendations were at first adopted, then turned down.
I thought that off-roaders should have to keep a certain distance away from people's houses. The Supervisors at first adopted an ordinance that outlawed of-roading within 300 yards of a fenced property. That's a reasonable compromise (I wanted the prohibition to be anything within earshot) but the Supervisors decided it wasn't enforceable (the 300 yard restriction).
The other thing I recomended would prohibit recreational off-roading on a "Red Flag Fire Danger Day", which is exactly the same thing that applies to recreational target shooting. That was a non-starter, which really bummed me because I can deal with noise and dirt, but fire is something alltogether different.
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brown unit
Ice climber
socal
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""If you tired of having your property destroyed there are many ways to keep them off. This site deals with much...much more than that however.
http://www.omnipresence.mahost.org/ch4txt.htm """
you are a f-ing pussy!!! i hope i see you putting these spikes out on the road and we'll see how cool you are!!!
chaz,
yeah the 400 yard rule is pretty much everywhere now and it is a fair rule. the problem is like any other situation there is not enough LEO to enforce these rules it happens inside OHV areas as well even though we pay taxes and pay to get into these areas as well as help with mainitenece and celanup there are simply not enough people to enforce the rules. like i said anytime you need help with your fences let me know
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Dirty Machines - Dirt bikes, ATVs and snowmobiles are a major source of air and noise pollution nationwide. Most of these machines are powered by antiquated two-stroke engines that burn a combination of gas and oil. According to the EPA, the average two-stroke dumps 25 to 30 percent of its fuel unburned into the air and water. The California Air Resources Board concluded that operating a two-stroke motor for about 7 hours generates as much smog-forming pollution as driving a modern car more than 100,000 miles. The EPA estimates that dirt bikes, snowmobiles and ATVs alone produce 10 percent of all hydrocarbon pollution from vehicles nationwide. Air pollution from these machines also threatens public health and has been directly linked to respiratory disease, cancer and premature death.
# 1 – Don’t believe everything you read. Especially when your source has such a blatant agenda.
#2 – I’ve got a four-stroke. Just about everyone I ride with has a four-stroke. I’d say that 2-strokes easily account for less that 20% of the machines out there these days.
Excerpted from the EPA link:
Emission modeling runs, summarized in Tables 4 and 5 for the years 2000 and 2007, show
relative contributions of the different recreational vehicle categories to the overall emissions
inventory. Of the total emissions from mobile sources, recreational vehicles contribute 0.16 percent
of NOx emissions, 8 percent of HC emissions, 5 percent of CO emissions, and 0.8 percent of PM
emissions in the year 2000.
I don’t see anything about 50% in there?
Besides, isn’t it the EPA that tells you your Prius gets 60mpg when in reality it gets 40?
Fuzzy math…
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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" Some climbers posted they were going to climb on private land, even if it was against the wishes of the property owners, unless they were assaulted or arrested."
Well, by some peoples views, I guess climbers suck!
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lk319
climber
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i just think you guys are jealous. you think we are lazy? try riding a few motos, or just riding at the practice track. im sure you wouldnt be calling us lazy, riding in 90 sumthin degree weather with all that gear on. there are some aholes who are ignerint, but we like to ride our motorcycles. i dont even rock climb, i just joined to post this. i found this thread on TT. how can you not like the sound of a rumblin 4-stroke, or pinging 2smoke i would love to hear that.
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lk319
climber
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i dont ride a 2 smoke. i ride a clean burnig yami yz250f, it may not be clean burning, but it aint a twostroke. it probobly produces less emissions than a car and i only ride it 3 hours ever 2 weeks at a track secluded in the pine barons in NJ. i cant even hear bikes from the road the entrance is on and the quad track is about 2000 feet from the entrance/
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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there are some aholes who are ignerint
Couldn’t have said it better myself :)
Holy Crap!
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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;) I hear you bro. I can't even ride for 1/2 hour at a good clip in the GA woods, but I'm pretty weak...just ask Minerals.
I can however, sit in the car for hours until my mind and azz are numb as can be...
Still, lk, no need to fling petards...we all love a good "discourse" on the taco (hehe)...
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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DUDE!
I only got about a quarter of the way through this before I scrolled down and realized it just goes on and on and on…
Holy sh#t, I’m not going to read all of that – and I thought I was pouring too much time into this fruitless discussion.
Fine, here you go dude – You’re right & I’m wrong.
Have a nice day, climb on & Vroom vroom!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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khanom,
Walk up to the next off-road rider that you see and tell them how badly they suck.
Please.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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khanom,
Walk up to the next off-road rider that you see and tell them how badly they suck.
Please.
Hh ha ha.
Oops - I didn't mean to laugh at that...
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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Never surfaced, I was thinking the same thing. Unfortunately,this is typical from a high-minded f%&k. I'm so glad he is working so hard on accepting OHVers. Some of the whining going on here is quite laughable.
Well, I better get going. I have to meet several of my beer drinking buddies. We are loading up the bikes (after we get drunk of course) and going out to blaze some new trails today. I just put on a new rear tire that should tear up the land quite nicely. We are bringing (2-stroke)chains saws too as there are a few trees in our way. I think I will uncork the exhaust to get the noise level around 103 dB not to mention the added risk of starting a fire to burn down all the damn brush that is covering some of our trails. We have told the land owner time and time again to keep the area cleared for us, but all he does is call the cops. Hopefully, we will run into some holier-than-thou climbers so we can irritate the hell out of them. That's what we live for you know. {sarcasm off}
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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You flip Harley riders off? Dang..... it's worse than I thought. Good luck with that! When at first you don't succeed try, try again.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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"so I just let my middle finger do the talking as I do with Harley riders"
LOL! Why am I not surprised? Dare I ask what problem you have with Harley riders? Let me guess, noise pollution?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Khanom, lighten up, dude. Did you finish the water pump?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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AHHHHH!
AHHHHHHHHHHH!
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A PLAYGROUND AND HAD TO LISTEN TO CHILDREN PLAY. THEY SCREAM AND LAUGH AND CRY AND OH MY GOD - THE NOISE!
AND DON’T GET ME STARTED ON THE F*#KING VOICES IN MY HEAD – THEY JUST WON’T LEAVE ME ALONE.
AAAHHHHHHH!
I just realized what my problem is – I’m trying to reason with some madman that hates everyone who lives in his van (down by the river).
You’re like the old man we all knew as a kid.
“Keep of my lawn you god damned hooligans!”
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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"What's the appeal?"
There it is again, that "if I don't like it, it must be wrong" attitude. You sir are an elitist dick-head. Some day, one of those Harley riders is going to break your finger off and shove it up your a*#. BTW, I don't ride a Harley. I ride a Honda VTX1800. I like my loud Cobra pipes too, as they sound good and they let idiot drivers know there is a bike beside them or around them when I am riding down the road. When I ride, I by no means am saying fvck you to anyone. I don't run around in a lower gear than neccessary so the noise is loud.
Well, I better go, my neighbor is cutting his grass and the noise is driving me crazy. I think I'll go outside and flip him off.
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dirtbag
climber
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"HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO A PLAYGROUND AND HAD TO LISTEN TO CHILDREN PLAY. THEY SCREAM AND LAUGH AND CRY AND OH MY GOD - THE NOISE! "
Well, there you go again comparing apples & oranges.
I have never heard children laughing or playing from several blocks or even miles away. I mean, do you really think the roar of a Harley is just as loud as children at play? Seriously? It just seems like Harley owners are seeking the loudest motorcycles for the attention. What they don't understand is that to everyone else, the roars simply scream out "Look at me, look at me, I have no dick."
Still, if you want to compare the loud noises made by Harley riders with the behavior of children, then have at it.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Hey, I’m not the one who brought Harley’s into this!
This was a thread about banning OHVs due to their environmental impact. I guess some of you got a little ahead of yourselves and figured since you had sunk the final nail in the OHV coffin that you’d go after street bikes too.
Don’t blame me for derailing this train – the conductor’s a madman!
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John Moosie
climber
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I thought Khanom's post was very cogent, but I guess some cant understand it. I will try to simplify.
Not in any particular order.
1. OHVs are noisy. LOUDER then Kids, climbers, horses and bicycles COMBINED. THEY DESTROY THE PEACE AND QUIET.
2. OHVs destroy more terrain then climbers, horses, kids and bicycles.
3. When in use, the same trail used by an OHVer is not safe for anyone else. This is not true of kids, horses, hikers, climbers and people on bicycles.
The reference to Harleys was a comparison to the noise and the disturbance to the peace.
Would you care to dispute this without name calling? or should we just go back to.....
Your a knucklehead...
No you are....
@SSwipe......
Exhaust breather.....
yada yada yada.
If you can't understand the whole post. Then pick one point you disagree with and try to explain why. Give facts and examples to back up your position. Name calling gets nowhere. We have plenty of people here who can call OHVers names ad infinitum ( which means forever ).
.........................................
One thing.... Khanom. The title of your thread started the name calling.
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John Moosie
climber
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Another point. Who care what the appeal is. The point is to try and figure out how to allow OHVers to do what they do without banning them and without robbing everyone else of the things they value..
LIke Quiet, and undisturbed meadows.........
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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"The title of your thread started the name calling. "
Ding,ding,ding,ding. We have a winner!
I have been in several debates/discusions and am never the first one to start name calling. If someone can discuss rationally, then I will too.
My biggest point is who is khanom to decide where the line is drawn when it comes to damaging the environment and why does he lump all OHVers into the same category of as#@&%es? We at TT have made our own complaints on those that trash areas and don't ride responsibly, but that seems to go out the window.
It amazes me how people are so hypocritical. He admits that his sport damages the environment and that some climbers are idiots too. The question is, where do we draw the line? Just because someone doesn't have the same passion for a specific sport, doesn't mean that sport should be picked on. I think it is very pompous of khanom to say that dirtbiking is fine as long as it isn't around him or within hearing range. YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY HUMAN ON THIS EARTH ASSWIPE! WHO DIED AND LEFT YOU BOSS?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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“liberalsimisamentaldisorder....
You really are that stupid, aren't you? And you obviously haven't bothered to read anything I've said... or I guess reading comprehension is a bit tough? I can understand that. When I was four it was a little confusing too.
Nothing you say above bears any correlation to ANY of the points that I've made. As usual with right wing assh0les, it's black and white, isn't it? You're incapable of seeing any subtlety or comprehending anything beyond your incredibly narrow-minded, selfish perspective.
If you want to have an actual debate in which both sides can be educated (I did my part... I did the research, I listened), we can have a discussion. If you only want to bitch and moan in the most simple-minded, puerile way, then you should really just leave.
I may have been a little aggressive and angry in my reaction to the destruction that I saw with MY OWN EYES. But I kept my mind open. I wanted to be educated and understand your perspective. I tried very hard to see a justification for your "sport". I made that clear several pages ago.
This thread has only served to harden my view and cause me to feel even more angry about all OHVs. Those OHV riders here had the opportunity to educate us and help change our minds. I even tried to steer you toward that end. Instead, you only demonstrated exactly why you are a bunch of selfish, simple-minded assh0les and why, in the end, ALL OHV riders SUCK.
Have a nice life. I hope it's short.”
I copied your post to make sure that if you tried to edit it, it would be immortalized for all time.
I’m not even sure why we wasted our time with you.
You’ve showed your true colors. Why anyone would get behind you at this point it beyond me.
Later dude. Enjoy your long, bitter life.
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John Moosie
climber
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Too funny neversurfaced and "your name is an insult". You didn't bash on X15 for calling me an ignoranus. You thought it was funny. I guess you can dish it but you cant take it.
Problem is, guys like you, who can dish it but can't take it wreck things for everyone else because guess what........The points I made above and the points Khanom made are legit. If no one comes up with an answer, then most likely OHVers will be banned from more and more areas. So you can dislike Khanoms tone all you want, but you are the one who will lose if you don't find a way to get past it.
Good luck with that.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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LMFAO! Truely pathetic. This was too easy.
LOL,LOL,LOL Best wishes to you too pal. I hope you don't have kids.
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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Mental liberal, you are on thin ice.
Best to braaap braaap off into the sunset on your noisy penis extension. Don't forget to pick up your empties on the way out.
Dr. Taco
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John Moosie
climber
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Naw, I think X15 understands. Even neversurfaced gets it to some degree. But there are definitely wankers out there.
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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Dr. Taco offers his assisted suicide services to this thread.
Die thread, Die.
Dr. Taco
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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A. Crowley,
Dr. Taco can help you too. But only if you let me.
My prescription for you: we start with a warm mayonaise enema in conjumction with a margarita (down your throat, not up your a*#).
Then a valium suppository, 10mg.
That should calm you down and stop the voices in your head.
We'll then re-evaluate your distemper.
Dr. Taco
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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A. Crowley, your distemper is really resistant to treatment.
Have you tried the head-in-the-oven thing?
Dr. Taco believes it could help you. Or at least, help us.
Dr. Taco amused himself with that last one.
Dr. Taco
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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A. Crowley,
How was that mayo enema? The trick is to get it warm, but not too hot.
But apparently 10mg. of valium was not enough. Let's up the dose to 20mg. administered hourly.
That should at least stop the foaming at the mouth.
Dr. Taco
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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Moosie- Did you not read where I stated this?
"We at TT have made our own complaints on those that trash areas and don't ride responsibly, but that seems to go out the window."
I'll spell it out nice an loud so mabey you will get it.
WE ADMIT THERE ARE IDIOTS THAT ARE MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD. WE DON'T LIKE THEM EITHER. AND OF COURSE OUR SPORT CAUSES MORE POLLUTION.
I don't drink and ride. I don't leave trash laying around. I don't go blazing new trails. I even made a long sarcastic post about it, but evidently, some here don't understand sarcasm. Yet,I'm the stupid one?
As I have stated before, my problem is with those that act as if their sport is more important and that would rather have my sport banned. Not to mention all the stereotyping. Should I guess that all climbers are liberal,tree hugging fags? WTF? What's next that you want banned; Drag racing,boating,airplanes,etc.?
I think the problem here is that too many tree huggers only see it one way. Yet they admit that their own sport does damage the environment too. Hypocrits! Again, these people seem to want to draw the line of destruction at thier level. You KHANOM, claim to have an open mind, which is a complete joke.
What if people were to say that they are OK with climbers as long as they do it where OHVers aren't? Do you not see the elitist attitude?
Noise? You go climb in an area that allows OHV's yet you complain about noise? That's about as bad as a guy that buys a house next to an airport and then complains about noise. Sorry, the world is getting more and more populated and noise comes with it. Get over it. You have no right to limit others in the activities that they do than they have the right to limit yours!
I'm going to guess that khanom has complained about light pollution too.
I really hope you get some help khanom. It seems as though you have a lot of anger issues. Hopefully you don't go all whacko and get that shotgun you mentioned. Unfortunately there have been some enviro whackos that have caused harm to OHVers. You have shown your true colors in hoping I have a short life. Wow, that's class. Moosie-you didn't bash khanom for saying this, you thought it was funny. That's about as ridiculous as you saying I thought it was funny when x15 call you an ignoranus-I did no such thing. Do you make a habit of lying to make others look bad?
It's funny how liberals scream about freedom to do what they want yet have no problem taking away rights of others if they don't happen to agree with them.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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Start another thread for that. We are getting off topic.
I make a long post to clarify myself and you ask about my user name. This seems typical of debating with a liberal when they have nothing important to come back with. I notice you have chimed in quite a bit with worthless little one and two liners.
Gota go now. Enjoy your evening!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder'
Don't pay any attention to A. Crowley.
A. Crowley's an ass-hole.
He spends all day, from 7am to midnight, sitting in front of his computer posting asinine sh*t every few minutes.
You're probably going to start getting e-mails from A. Crowley pretty soon, if you haven't already.
It's a sickness.
Did I mention A. Crowley's an ass-hole?
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John Moosie
climber
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Mental Disorder,
First off, you complain that people lump all of you OHVers together, but then you do the same thing when you label someone who doesn't like the noise OHVs make or the destruction they do a liberal or a tree hugger.
You wrote,
" You have no right to limit others in the activities that they do than they have the right to limit yours! "
Well, guess what.....that kind of thing goes on all of the time. Societies make up all kinds of rules. Climbers cant use power drill in some areas, we also can't climb in certain areas during certain times. Thats a fact of life. Autos have noise restrictions on them. So your point above is bunk.
My main point to you was that there are things people don't like and if you don't take it seriously then others will. So what if Khanom said OHVers suck. I only pointed out what X15 said to show you that yall do the same thing. Get over it and try to have a reasonable conversation without immediately resorting to name calling and bashing.
You don't like it when people lump you all together, then stop doing it yourself.
...............................................
After a bunch of haggling, In an effort to clarify his position, Khanom made a post which a number of OHVers just laughed at. So he said he hoped yall die early.
Then I tried to simplify Khanom's post. Albeit a bit sarcastically...haha...you complain that I don't understand your sarcasm. Thats too funny. You are the one who showed up here with a pissy name ala Mental Disorder. And yes, I didn't know your name was a sarcasm.
I have pointed it out more then once. Which do you want? A flame war or a conversation. You want to talk, great. Lets talk. You want to flame. Go for it Mizz Mental Disorder.
So far the only thing you have said to Khanoms or my questions about noise is its a fact of life, get over it. Guess what....I ain't going to get over it. I put mufflers on my vehicles because I respect others rights to have quiet. NOT just because its a law. So what if you do a lot to reign in your outlaws if : one...you laugh at those who complain about the outlaws and two you act like a dick. I don't know you and I don't know if you do a lot to try and corral the fools in your sport. So what if you say one time that you try to stop them. Big Effing deal. How do I know without holding a conversation with you? You say it once and you think I will automatically accept that. Guess what Bro......I don't know you.
Maybe the next time someone bashes the stupid things OHVers do, you will not automatically label them a tree hugger or a liberal. That is if you really want others to understand you. People here have voiced genuine concerns. Maybe they didn't do it in a nice manner. But who loses if you come here and just flame them? My guess is that you do.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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"Should I guess that all climbers are liberal,tree hugging fags?"
Once again Moosie, you missed what I wrote.
I was trying to convey that it's wrong to stereotype. DID YOU READ THE WORD "SHOULD"?
I think you just read what you want to and then try to twist things around.
So you are fine with a person who wishes someone to die early because they were laughed at? I guess that shows how much class you have to. Unbelievable.
I think I will go back to TT and deal with "my own kind".
There are a few dicks there like you and khanom, but I don't know any that would wish someone an early death for disagreeing with them. Maybe it's just hard to get my points across due to being on the net. Oh well, good luck to all of you. I hope you stay safe in your climbing adventures. Just try to understand that some people like doing things you don't and we're not out there trying to piss you off.
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John Moosie
climber
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Maybe you should read the first hundred posts. Things got out of hand because Neversurfaced couldn't distinguish the arguement that there is a difference in driving on an established road and going off road. I think thats funny. Yall defend yourselfs by saying you stay on established trails and roads but Khanom isn't allowed to. At the beginning he was angry but trying to be reasonable. Then neversurfaced started calling him a hippocrit for driving on dirt roads and so the flame war began. Khanom didn't get obstinate until yall gang banged him with insults.
So Naw... your technique didn't work X15. I already agreed with you and I never said I wasn't a hippocrit. I used to 4 wheel. I was just trying to get yall to stop reacting to Khanoms anger with potshots. None of you did. None of you answered his questions without taking potshots. I get tired of that so I took a few potshots.
Sure Khanom was spoiling for a fight. He had just seen an area TRASHED. Yall seem to be more worried about him saying OHVers suck then you do about the trashed area. None of you even answered Ekat and she is one of the nicest people on this forum. Probably on this planet. But yall came loaded for bear.
I read what neversurfaced said on your forum. How he was all nice and polite. What a load of tripe. Read his posts again here. Khanom tried to explain his position. Yes he is still angry. So what. He didn't say anything mean until he was attacked. He made his points and what did you guys do? You made fun of him.
People are pissed. Do you want to add to the anger or do you want to try and figure something out. How about trying to get past the anger and answer the questions posed.
I already get it that there are responsible OHVers out there. What I want to figure out is what to do about the A-holes.
You might want to reread some of the OHVers post.
Mental Disorder basically said about noise that we should just get over it. People make noise. Its your right to and we don't have the right to say no.
What do you say to that?
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WBraun
climber
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What do you say to that?
When it gets too noisy I turn my hearing aid off.
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John Moosie
climber
|
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I guess you didn't get past the first post. Too bad.
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John Moosie
climber
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Do you understand why he is pissed? Did you notice that he started out angry because of what he had just seen, but he was really trying to understand? Then he got gang banged and that is what shut the door. He was chided for driving on a dirt road and for climbers leaving trash on Everest. Everything yall complain others do to you, which is pigeon holing, was done to him.
I think he is being unreasonable, and I did call him on his tittle, but I don't like some of the arguements that the OHV crowd offered and I really don't care for the way they were offered. Unless of course they were only offered to be flames. Then flame on.
But don't be suprised when people get pissed and vote to ban you.
You say I should call the OP on his original post. I say you should call some of the OHVers who showed up here on their sh#t.
Fair enough?
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John Moosie
climber
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Too Funny. Changing a waterpump by age 12 makes you a tough guy. hahaha..
Now thats funny.
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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A. Crowley, Dr. Taco is concerned for your mental health. It appears you have a personality disorder which causes you to post non-stop. And to post stuff like this:
You've got to change your evil ways... Moosie
Before LEB stops loving you.
You've got to change... Moosie
And every word that I say, it's true.
You've got me running and posting
All over town.
You've got Ann sneaking and bitching
And posting the clowns
This can't go on...
Lord knows you got to change...
If you won't let Dr. Taco help you, please seek treatment elsewhere. Quickly.
Dr. Taco
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
|
|
"By driving your OHVs in an area, you limit my right to use that area."
HOW? We don't ride up and down the cliffs you climb on! Let me guess, noise? LOL! How about you come up with days that you can climb and that others can ride? I'm guessing you don't want that as YOU would have to compromise.
Gotta love your last paragraph. Why do you think someone wants to kick your ass? I think you have proven to me that YOU are the weak and pathetic one. Internet bravado is funny. Have you given up driving that van yet? Or are you too weak? I think I will drive my gas guszzling Expedition to Wendy's for a triple cheese burger. Hope that doesn't make you hate me anymore than you already do.
Here is a picture of my loud street bike and Expedition.
I think some anger management classes are in your future! Life is too short to have so much hate. The sooner you wake up and realize the world doesn't revolve around you, the less hate you will have.
Oh, here's my OHV.
And me at the track. I'm sure you'll be happy to know that it is a private track and is way out in the sticks.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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Yet another stellar post by A Crowley. Guess I know what the A stands for. And here I thought yellow was your color. LOL!
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
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It's a statement and a typo genious! I tried to fix it but couldn't. I have already been asked this earlier and it was answered. Try to keep up little fella.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
|
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WoW!!! You guys are angry!!!
When I saw the OP's title I wondered where he saw me riding. :-)
I like to trail ride, but I recently sold my bike. I live in a great area for OHV's. There are roads and trails all over the desert that have been there for 100's of years. But, as I watch this area explode in population I have to wonder if it's sustainable. I don't think it is. Unfortunately those of us that are responsible OHVers are out numbered by the selfish ignorant one's.
What do you guys and gals think of Moab? Is it being managed properly? Are all land users able to enjoy their own use types?
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
|
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Well Crowley, I don't know if it was coined by Rush, but I heard it from Michael Savage. He wrote a book titled that.
So, I guess you are the fool.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_Is_a_Mental_Disorder
BTW, you are the idiot that asked me the same thing twice. The first time was because you had nothing to come back with, so you tried getting off topic. What's the matter, didn't comprehend the first answer or did your weak mind already forget? I'm done playing with you little fella. Run along now.
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WBraun
climber
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x15x15
Oh well .....
How about a tofu sandwich then. Want one?
Or maybe some carrot juice?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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it is truly pitiful when the
machine defines the man.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Clarify d-know (if you’re capable).
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Wow, 351 posts and counting!?!?
Good job.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
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This is typical of the attitude of all the Off-Road Ass-Holes I've talked to.
There IS a problem with your *sport*.
The problem is your attitude.
Typical.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Do any of you anti-off road vehicle folks want to judge one of America's finest fallen climbers for using a snow mo for some of his ascents in Montana?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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a high speed hyalite canyon approach (to ice climbs duh)
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
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I never enjoy it when I am out skiing somewhere and some snow mobiles power by, filling up the quiet places for way too long with their ugly noise. Does anyone? Does anyone think its somehow justified if they are headed to do an ice route? Does anyone disagree that it’s a better experience and better style to access an ice route on skis or snow shoes rather than a machine, even if it means starting a lot earlier? The noise of those things brings a little ugliness to everyone around and the sound carries.
I don’t see any alternative to working at banning the noisy machines from as many places as possible. I used to have a Husqvarna 450 that I rode on various trails. No doubt, it was fun, but now I have a mountain bike and I can ride without filling every valley I pass through with noise. I would never go back to the machine. Recreational of road use of machines was a mistake and its time to support efforts to keep these things out of the quiet places whenever and wherever possible. Do you really want to be on the side of the recreational machine people? I think climbers should always be working towards doing ascents and approaches in better style – less reliance on artificial assists and with lower impact on the surroundings and other users. Climbers should be leaders among back country users in this regard.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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walk to the crag.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Hahahahaha
I laugh. Why?
It's so ironic that all these peace and quiet loving folks here who like to go to the forest for their solitude use gear by the same manufactured industrial complex that they are rebelling against.
It's ok for the noise and pollution to be somewhere else as long as it's out of our eyesight.
We are unconscious hypocrites for sure .......
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
|
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pedge - stop typing, it's bothering me.
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jstan
climber
|
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When different populations are in conflict over who gets to possess something to the detriment of others, as we are here, we seem to make a lot of simple mistakes. At the outset there seem to be only two possible answers. Murder or compromise. Often we resort to words suggesting we have elected murder, but I really don't hear of that many killings. On statistical grounds I would argue those talking in this way have actually chosen not to take part in the conversation and might simply be ignored. In the following I will be ignoring the murderers.
So let us focus our attention on the people who think, compromise might be a possibility. Contrary to what some think, most people fall into this category. Even among this group we see long extended discussions that circle endlessly. During such, people most often get further apart not closer.
Here is why this happens. We all like to think that if we personally can persuade individual X to our way of thinking the path to the future will open up. Such an important result of course justifies my really putting on the pressure. NOT. Am I claiming one should just stop when circling starts? Yes. There is a structural reason why this will be more successful.
The path to the future is a collective process involving large numbers of interactions. If you have 100 people the number of interactions is the number of possible combinations for 100 taken two at a time. This process looks like a random walk seen locally, but the movement of the center of mass points toward the future. Circling arguments reduce the number of useful interactions the two individuals participating can undertake while it is going on. Their time is simply being wasted.
Now on the internet we have the impression we have huge leverage in that lots of people read what we have to say. So the need for pressure is even stronger. Again, NOT. When two people have been circling for the past week, do you read each of the posts? It can be entertaining, but still, it gets old fast. People who are always circling, in a sense - disappear.
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liberalsimisamentaldisorder
climber
Ohio
|
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"It's ok for the noise and pollution to be somewhere else as long as it's out of our eyesight. "
Exactly!
Noise is ok,but-NIMBY.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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I think that's backwards. Most of us urbanites live with noise and pollution everyday.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Oct 17, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
|
Bump. This was a fun one.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Oct 17, 2007 - 04:09pm PT
|
UD,
I enjoyed the spirited discussion here, as did others. Discussion. KNOTT off-line stalking, or making veiled threats to kick someone's ass.
Why are you in such a foul mood?
Did Fatty finally get a restraining order against you?
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Oct 17, 2007 - 04:44pm PT
|
Have a nice day Uncle Doug.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
|
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|
Oct 17, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
|
This is awesome. Who would have ever thought it was all started by a homeless guy bummed others were intruding on his peace while parked in a national forest thats been decimated by over-logging? Sweet.
Please resume flaming...
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
|
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Oct 17, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
|
Back at ya dirtbag.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Oct 17, 2007 - 04:54pm PT
|
"a homeless guy bummed others were intruding on his peace"
Ah, that's funny, Atch!
I guess some threads get you fired-up.
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dirtbag
climber
|
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Jun 26, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
|
It's even worse in the desert.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
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Jun 26, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
|
"Is there some kind of dirt bike moron-fest going on, or is this just the way it's going to be? "
It's Motocross week in Mammoth. I'm not sure about the dates, but I think it's going through next weekend at least.
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GoMZ
Trad climber
Eastern Sierra
|
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Jun 26, 2008 - 04:32pm PT
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Mammoth motocross is going on until Sunday. This probably has a lot to do with the number of motos running around right now. The 10 day period of motocross is my least favorite event in Mammoth. Can't figgin wait till it is over.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
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Jun 26, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
|
Got to agree with Kofi's assessment of 97%.
But hey man, if you want to penetrate a block a .45 is a poor choice. You need something narrower and faster (and harder).
Try a steel tipped .223
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
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Jun 26, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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TrundleBum, you're not alone.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
|
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Jun 26, 2008 - 07:53pm PT
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I think much of it has to do with were you are. If your staying in Mammoth during MotoX week then I would look for another place to stay for a while. I do hate the sound of 2 strokes and understand your frustration. If you plan on going to Dumont Dunes, Pismo, Glamis or Jawbone Cyn you are not going to find peace and quiet. These locals are the place of mindless idiots.
I do not "off road" but I do travel on dirt roads with my truck as i am sure many of you do also. I just got back 3 days ago from touring the back roads of the Inyo Mountains and the Saline Valley. Drove 200 on old dirt roads and never saw a single soul in 3 days. I had the range to myself.
I have no problem with people using open dirt roads but I have a huge problem with people riding or driving off road. People driving off road should be fair game for target practice.
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travelin_light
Trad climber
california
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Jun 26, 2008 - 08:28pm PT
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I would bet that overunning a quiet mountain town with motorbikes for 10 days is probably not the smartest idea in terms of PR. Their impact will be noticed after the dust settles.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Jun 26, 2008 - 08:35pm PT
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khanom,
Your right I dont travel too fast except on long stretches of washboard where I air way down and go as fast as is safe.
Traveling light,
MotoX is nothing new to Mammoth. It has been going on there as long as I can remember. I dont even know where the track is or where else they ride but I do know it is a very popular destination for riders.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jun 26, 2008 - 08:43pm PT
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”Not -once- have I ever seen any other activity out there, and the reason should be obvious. “
It is obvious.
It’s because there isn’t any reason to do those things in the Inyo NF. Why would anyone want to go out there when the Sierra is literally right across the street?
Mountain biking on flat, dry, dirt roads isn’t fun. Hiking on a flat dirt road isn’t fun either. And it’s particularly unpleasant when you know there is a beautiful mountain range right next door.
There are millions of acres of protected wilderness here, for the hikers, climbers, horseback riders, fisherman, etc.... And there are also millions of acres of National Forest for the OHV crowd.
There’s plenty of space for everyone to be able to do their own thing. They get their playground, and we get ours.
#2
The annual Motocross event brings quite a bit of money to the local economy. And it is especially important this year, since things have been pretty slow the last few months. It’s too bad we can’t find a way to cash in on your complaining. That would boost the economy!
”I wonder, if the residents of Mammoth Lakes held a referendum on whether to ban OHV use in Inyo NF in the immediate vicinity of town, what would the results be do you think? Any Mammoth-ites care to chime in? “
I think the general consensus would be something along the lines of: “The Inyo NF?!?!?! In the vicinity of town?!?!?! Who the f*#k cares?!?!?” That would be followed by a bit of laughter and then a lot of “You’re joking, right?”
Many of the people who live here get out and enjoy the mountains on a regular basis. And we’re happy to see other people having fun just as we are.
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Jun 26, 2008 - 10:10pm PT
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I didn’t realize you were talking about the land in town. I thought you were referring to everything to the west of 395.
The area around Shady Rest is very popular for hiking and biking. There is an ongoing local mountain bike race series that uses those trails, so I’m surprised you haven’t seen anyone riding there.
The land within the town is naturally going to be more crowded by all users, and people expect that. So while some people may not particularly enjoy dirtbikes, they realize that the land is meant to be enjoyed by everyone. If they’re going for a quick run/bike after work, then they understand that the land in town is going to be busier and noisier than normal. If they need peace and quiet, they simply drive an extra 2-3 minutes and go elsewhere.
So you’re complaining about engine noises within the town?
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 26, 2008 - 10:12pm PT
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I've been thinking of getting a 4 wheel unit or a motorcycle to access a climbing area out in the woods. There is a trail which goes near that allows motorcycles on it. I know someone who just drove his 4 x 4 Toyota up the hiking trail, but I'd rather not go there and do that. As its a hell of a hike, you wind up walking all weekend for very little climbing.
Whats a good rig for packing all the sh#t in? ATV or a Motorcycle + Side car?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 26, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
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The off-road motos are OK with me. They may be loud, but at least it takes some skill to ride those, and most of them are at least somewhat more serious about what they do.
It's the 4-wheelers that tend to be the most obnoxious and disrespectful to the environment and others. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that any idiot can drive one of those.
And don't get me started on the overly loud Harleys owned by yuppies.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 16, 2008 - 03:53pm PT
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Khanom, watch out. Next time you're in the backcountry sleeping in your rig, this little dude could come tear-assin' through and wake you up!!!
He crashes (sleeps) a lot though!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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Oct 16, 2008 - 06:45pm PT
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I'll stop trespassing when equestrians pick up their horse poop!
I'm just kidding (sort of. I definately wouldn't ride in circles on somebodies property though. I have property out in Antelope valley and it has seen some abuse.
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