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sprout
Trad climber
clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 17, 2007 - 01:30am PT
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Anybody know what happened? The rangers wouldn't tell us anything besides that it wasn't an injured climber. Anyone know?
sprout
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2007 - 01:37am PT
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I know, but can't tell until the official release from the higher ups.
They'll release the info by tomorrow probably.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 17, 2007 - 01:49am PT
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Well that must mean somebody died eh?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 17, 2007 - 02:43am PT
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It could've been a political fund raiser that suddenly went wrong:
All the people that showed up held onto their munny, and shouted abuse.
So, Cheney grabbed Hillary, and they split.
Ha-ha-ha!
But, seriously, though:
Great props to the helicopter pilots who fly in and out of the Valley, a rather dangerous mission. People who get hurt, or otherwise need to be evacuated, have, at their disposal, the best pilots in the world to provide transport. The powerful Huey machines used to fly out of Lemoore Naval Air Station, operated by probably the best-trained pilot team in the world.
I saw a Dauphin-type heli (circular fuselage shroud at the tail rotor) last year. Perhaps this configuration makes more sense for mountian work.
Good work, all the way around, brave pilots. And thanks for taking the risk, which is not trivial.
When you climbers get on the Wall (trust me: you WILL be drawn to the Wall) the sight of the helicopters flying 1000-2000 feet below your feet will give you good perspective of just how high up you are.
So, have fun, and be careful.
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gonz
Trad climber
Yofukinsemite
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Jun 17, 2007 - 04:37pm PT
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heard someone died on halfdome on the cables
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Jun 17, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
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Not again...
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 17, 2007 - 07:36pm PT
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Werner, any official word yet?
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 17, 2007 - 07:51pm PT
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That sucks :(
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Jun 17, 2007 - 08:21pm PT
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Should we require people to clip into the cables?
Or am I being silly with such ideas?
I walked down the cables years ago, I had clipped myself in because they scared me more than climbing the face.
I remember a few people found it funny, but I was too unnerved to be laughing.
AF
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Domingo
Mountain climber
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Jun 17, 2007 - 09:04pm PT
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Given the cost of Half Dome accidents, it seems like requiring hikers to clip in would be a good idea.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 17, 2007 - 09:53pm PT
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What is the cost to society of requiring safety modifications to mitigate any imaginable danger?
I'm surpised that climbers would think that not allowing people to choose to manage their own risk would be a good idea.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 17, 2007 - 09:59pm PT
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Requiring everyone to clip in to go up (or even down) The Cables means you have to pay someone to make sure everyone goes with the program. Can you imagine the line to get up or down? (Uncle Virgil has his harness on backwards without doubling back his buckle and needs to be set straight before he is allowed up) It's bad enough on weekends as it is.
My guess, the cost of the occasional rescue/recovery is less than staffing an enforced safety policy.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2007 - 10:04pm PT
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Yeah, half dome cables fatality again.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jun 17, 2007 - 10:12pm PT
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"My guess, the cost of the occasional rescue/recovery is less than staffing an enforced safety policy."
I'm not coming out in favor of more regulations here, but you can post a requirement, and not enforce it. It could also be a suggestion--which is a more appealing idea.
If properly publicised (on signs, website, and park literature) it would still get a lot of the people to use harness & via ferrata device (petzl scorpio vertigo or similar). Fewer accidents? Hopefully.
The lines might actually move faster because:
1. It would discourage some from doing the cable route at all.
2. Some of the people who freeze in fear with no gear would have more confidence.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jun 17, 2007 - 10:52pm PT
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seems like the cables might benefit from a via Ferrata type treatment, where it's considered standard to wear a harness and clip into pre-installed anchors
off thread is the
interesting stuff going on in Europe in terms of growing via Ferrata popularity and some interest/development here in the states too
just a thought
tragic to hear about this
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 17, 2007 - 11:31pm PT
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I'm with you Ekat, the cables need to be moved over. I would hate to see them taken down completely.
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G.M. Oth
Trad climber
Anywhere and everywhere
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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I've never gone up the cables, but when I have come down the cables, I would always wear my climbing, or approach shoes.
Werner, you should know; How many accidents have happened on the cables due to improper shoewear?
G.M. Oth
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john hansen
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:37am PT
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I hate to say it but you could install better "stair's" between the existing cables. Hundreds of people go up there every week in the summer. It would make it harder to put up and take down in the winter, but, if you are going to have access for the public, make it maybe just a little bit safer.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Hell A
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:43am PT
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ekat,
I think you are a great person, but have to agree with Ken M. we shouldn't have to dumb down the route to appease the masses.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:44am PT
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I feel bad for whoever took the big ride, but I say let people take their chances. Perhaps posting a list at the bottom of people who have been killed attempting it might induce a little more sobriety in the masses,
michael
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:46am PT
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it's not a ROUTE. when will people learn that just cuz they climb they're not more badass than everyone else??? what would you do if you got in a climbing accident or a car accident and got paralyzed for the rest of your life??? how would you define yourself then???
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john hansen
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:46am PT
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That's a much better idea Nick.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Hell A
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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it's not a ROUTE
you are correct SS/TR, but it might be if not for the cables
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
real eyes realize real life
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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tenB, i feel you bro. but i strongly disagree that even tho it's been available to everyone else for DECADES, and legendary all around the country, and probly other countries too, that it should now be taken away and limited only to those with specialized knowledge instead of just fitness.
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Jude Bischoff
Ice climber
Palm Springs
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:58am PT
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People like to walk outside the cables to avoid the slow pokes. That is where many of the accidents happen. There seems to be more this year than ever before.
I agree with Ken M. on the respect of personal responsibility.
Yosemite Mountaineering could get an income stream from guiding tourists up the cables for a fee and renting the proper clip in Via Ferrata system. Post guides and gear at the base of the cables.
It's a blessing people have to earn their way to the top and they have not touristed it out with a tram and restaurant.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:01am PT
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Thousands and thousands of people make it up and down The Cables each year and maybe two or three have accidents.
The one-tenth-of-one-percent who have problems should not dictate how everybody else does things.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:03am PT
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oh for crying out loud. yea, let's make it something only the ones who can pay for guiding and all that crap (mainly middle class white folks) can afford.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:06am PT
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this is lame ..
.. no need to move the cables .. no need for more safety .. this has just been a bad year for the cables ..
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stinky
climber
Santa Cruz. CA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:09am PT
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should we make it wheel chair accessible while we're at it?
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:22am PT
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I was told that no one ever perished on the cables simply due to falling (i.e. no medical or severe weather issues) till about a year ago. Is this correct?
The cables are a route. In fact, they (in modified form), are one of the first big rock routes in Yosemite.
From Roper:
"The first ascent of the dome was made by George Anderson in October 1875. By drilling holes for ludicrously large iron spikes, he was able to work his way up the 46 degree slope of the east face. Today an excellent trail winds its way eight miles to the base of this face; cables then lead to the summit. The face can be climbed without using the cables (class 5)."
When you climb the cables, you are in that moment a climber, IMO. It's a big deal for a lot of people to take on both the physical and mental challenge of it.
If you want "regular people" to respect our choices to rope up or not as climbers, maybe we need to respect their choices on the cables too.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
look around look around, tell me what you've found
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:27am PT
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"The cables are a route. In fact, they (in modified form), are one of the first big rock routes in Yosemite."
oh. i stand corected. thank you : )
and yea, i agree on the respect thang...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 18, 2007 - 01:28am PT
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edited the typo on the date.
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jun 18, 2007 - 03:13am PT
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How is Half Dome different from any other mountain which is a little difficult to get to the top of, but lots of people try anyways? Sure, in this case, something which is not naturally there has been added to make it easier. But such "improvements" have been placed all over the mountains. Heck, we even have roads and trails, not naturally there, to make it easier to get to the tops of mountains.
There are inherent dangers associated with every step of travelling to the top of a mountain and back. Of course, when a person chooses to engage in an activity with potential danger, he takes on the risk. Accidents such this are rare, but very normal. We should not be surprised by them. In fact, everyone should expect them; we just don't know exactly when and to whom they will happen.
We tend to place ourselves, as "climbers", at an elite level, above all the regular people out there. We think that we are more worthy of attempting a goal in the mountains than someone without our training and experiences. But those "regular" people's goals are just as valid as ours. Unfortunatly, sometimes they just make fatal errors, often due to failure to properly prepare for and properly comprehend, their task at hand. But if one were to look at the overall numbers, even with the the occasional death, the whole idea of getting up on top of some prominent feature out there is relatively "safe". I see no need to change anything.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:13am PT
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I am with Ed on this. Really happy I don't have to make the decision. I'll say right up front I have not seen the cables.
The idea of making shock absorbing lanyards available sounds good, though anyone supplying them will face liability concerns. If I were making myself one I would use two or three parallel strands of the rubber tie-downs truckers use to fasten down their tarps. I did this once to take the weight of a jack hammer off me. They work really well. In this case they would obviously need to be backed up with the right length of 1" webbing.
Another off-the-wall idea. I have used wire rope encased in tygon, a soft plastic tubing. I know small diameter wire rope can be hard to hold onto. Maybe the gripping surface of the cables could be improved with something that also stands up to UV?
However this all plays out I don't envy the people who have to deal with it.
I have spent a little time on via ferrata. Hard to see how they will not be increasingly in our future.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:35am PT
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I've only been on the cables once (descending), after climbing Snake Dike last September. I was actually more scared on the cables than leading the 5.7 friction traverse (crux of the route). I'm surprised more people don't fall off that mess.
I've only seen pics of Euro-style via ferrata - the main difference looks like participants have ladder-like rungs to walk on, though I'm sure the cables are fitted differently as well.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Jun 18, 2007 - 10:54am PT
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I think if we just "highly advise" people to clip in with at least a sling around their waist would be good enough. Then we won't need someone to monitor people, yet we still encourage those that are aware of their own clumsiness that there is a better way.
Personally, I see people getting on the cables because they think it must be safe enough because the rangers have them up. You can see by their faces of their insecurity. If we gave them a chance to protect themselves, I have a feeling that their will be less accidents.
Just my two cents.
AF
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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Jun 18, 2007 - 11:52am PT
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panweilin: great pics, but a tragic story.
However, your post that links to my post with the caption "Someone posted a photo online showing the man's falling" is incorrect (or maybe I am misunderstanding) - the pic I posted is from last September, after we had descended the cables.
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reyzell
Social climber
CA
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Jun 18, 2007 - 12:15pm PT
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I witnessed this tragedy. I was on the bottom left of half dome trying to hide my backpack when I looked up and saw a young asian man sliding down. He was seated on his rear with his feet in front and hands to the side and I could hear his sneakers skidding as he tried to stop.
He was sliding in my direction and I ran toward him thinking maybe I could do something but he hit the ledge and started tumbling out of control and fell right over the side.
When I climbed out of the saddle and got to the top I could see he landing in a crevice a ways down and two other people climbed down to him where he later died.
It was heartbreaking to see. The girl he was with was shaken up horribly and the guy he was with showed no emotion.
A few pics I took here:
http://travel.webshots.com/album/559503394PPnTVQ
show the fall from the poor guy's perspective (number 92) and show his friend looking at the helicopter after he died (number 99).
If only we were required to harness ourselves to the cables... :(
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 19, 2007 - 02:51am PT
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everyone knows there are too many damn people om the planet anyway, an it's only getting worse, so why do we need to remove all the risk from every action that anyone might possibly take?
truth is, if you polled the people headed up there and asked if they prefered a safer route up HD or a soda machine at the base of the cables...
EDIT- i posted that comment before the one above appeared. obviously i was being somewhat sarcastic, but my condolences of course go out to the victim's family and friends.
going into wilderness involves risks.
anyone can easily see that the cables ascent involves risk.
perhaps we ought to revive the discussion about signs at every cliff that warn of rockfall?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 19, 2007 - 04:14am PT
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It's one thing to complain "there are too many damn people om the planet anyway", but it's another to have the courage of your convictions and schedule an appointment with Dr Kervorkian and DO something about it.
Little bit of *ChickenHawk* there in you, Matt?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jun 19, 2007 - 06:01am PT
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Off topic
Chaz, I think Matt was being a bit tongue in cheek on what he posted.
Little bit of *ChickenHawk* there in you, Matt?
Takes one to know one, eh Chaz (heh heh).
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climbrunride
Trad climber
Durango, CO
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Jun 19, 2007 - 06:48am PT
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Those pictures are crazy! It looks like the lines going to the summit on Everest, only worse. Ridiculous. I never realized that "climbing Half Dome" was such a "thing". After seeing those crowds, I'm surprised that deaths are not a daily occurrance up there.
Then again, I'd probably go up there too, if it just wasn't so darn far to walk.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Jun 21, 2007 - 11:10pm PT
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I am more scared going up those cables then climbing the face of Half Dome. Repeat! I am more scared of those dang cables than climbing a sheer face! Now when I had to climb down with a pig on my back, I felt very silly for I had to clip in. Looking back on my decision, I now consider it to be the smartest climbing move I have ever done.
I wish more people could have the chance to do the same.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 22, 2007 - 05:05am PT
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I once wrote Lincoln "Link" Else, when he was the Valley climbing ranger, about the HD cables. My vision of all those people crowded together, trying to move up/down past immobile groups, going outside the cables to pass, was:
The crowds on the cables look like the run-up to the 'Christmas Tree Falls Over' scene from the original Poseidon Adventure movie: a disaster in the making.
I thought a third cable, to provide two traffic lanes, UP and DOWN, would increase both safety and tourist throughput.
His reply to me was PURE GOLD:
As a Park Ranger, his job is to preserve the Park in its natural state. A second Half Dome Cables lane (what about four lanes, for the Labor Day rush-hour?) would pervert the entire concept of preserving the National Park System in a natural state.
Link suggested a better idea might be to eliminate the cables altogether.
And, after all, freeing that face is only about 5.6. Making it harder would not only reduce traffic, but also make the summit that much sweeter for those who attain it.
It's suppose to be hard. The hard is what makes it great. If it was easy, everybody would do it." - Jimmy Dugan
In the meantime, if I ever summit Half Dome again, I will want to time my descent to either early morning or late night full moon.
Hand-traversing down and around a near-catatonic mob, outside the cables, is no way to end a fine ascent.
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wildone
climber
The Astroman of 5.9
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Jun 22, 2007 - 05:21am PT
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Werner, look what you did! You are a bad, bad, man. (j/k)
NO-ONE DIED ON HALF DOME TODAY. Werner was pulling your leg.
Diabetic at top of Illilouette falls, threw up a Dr. Pepper on the helo ride down to the meadow. Had "forgotten" his needles, and decided to hike anyway.
We pay the costs.
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tonym
climber
Oklahoma
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Jun 22, 2007 - 11:17am PT
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"Link suggested a better idea might be to eliminate the cables altogether".
Hey Tom, I'm for removing the cables as well. Most hikers’ contribution to the summit of Half Dome is leaving trash and feeding the fat Marmot who resides up there.
A couple weeks ago my partner and I were working on getting our time down on the reg. route so we had the opportunity to see the mass crowd of hikers all over the summit and on the cables. On one of our top outs we saw two hikers making their way down the ledges just above the last 5.7 pitch. They were wearing gloves, no harness and obviously oblivious to the danger of falling off the ledge and taking the 2000' foot ride to the base. Another pair of hikers were just inches away from my fixed line that my partner was jugging, had the line popped over a flake or ledge it would have whipped and knocked them off their feet sending them off the face.
It's pretty bad up there and the majority of the hikers are clueless as to the dangers they put themselves in whether it be on the summit or on the cables.
Pull the cables and eliminate the crowds and yes there will be a few idiots who decide to go for the top without the skill required to climb 5.6 but hey that then falls under the "natural selection" topic.
~TM
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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Jun 22, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
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I found the best way down was outside the cables. First, facing the cables you spread your arms out and grab the things... then turn around and grab them backwards... repeat until the decent is finished... flipping around and around... lot's of fun
As far as assending... outside, hand over hand is the best way to beat the crowds.
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