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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 27, 2004 - 04:17pm PT
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Karl Baba suggested this trip report being a separate topic because of how disturbing the situation is.
I will avoid saying any names but all of this destruction happened a few years ago while “someone” was putting up the “hardest route on El Cap”. This kind of behavior should be unacceptable to the climbing community.
Cheers, Ammon
(Report by Hans Florine)
We started at 6:29am on Tuesday.
The bolts on the first pitch have been chopped. I free soloed the pitch, not recommended unless you have Bacher or Schneider like prowess on thin granite. The bolts at the second anchor were hammered flat, we tried to pry one up but it broke the hanger.
The first bolt on the 3rd pitch was hammered down, albeit it looked old and beat anyway. The first fixed head in the crack on this pitch appeared to have been hammered on until on one very small dapple of wire was holding it there. Brian and I admit to being paranoid sometimes if warranted, but not in this case, we really think some one left this head there purposely f*#ked up dangling by one metal thread.- meaning it looked like someone hammered the wire until it was down to just the thread.
Although rivets do break occasionally it appeared as though they had been purposely chopped in a few places on the route. Brian and I placed six rivets on the route, but only because that is all we had and we were very imaginative in other spots and got by.
We replaced two rivets on the 3rd pitch bringing it back to doable.
On the 8th pitch going over to Mescalito I ran into rivets with the heads just sitting on their shafts as if someone had cut them off and just lightly glued or mashed the head back on to have it sit there. Here there was four or more rivets removed, I had to pendulum over to Mescalito and climb that pitch leapfrogging and back cleaning for 40 ft.
On the 12th pitch I encountered a place where three rivets in a row appeared to have been chopped. I could not get through it by adding one rivet, I had none. I climbed up Reticent to a belay and then pendulumed BARELY enough to lasso the next rivet in line.
At pitch 13 the route joins New Dawn to the top. From there up there was plenty of hard climbing but we did not encounter anything that seemed to be purposely whacked.
I dropped my helmet from the anchor at pitch 21, presumably all the way to the ground. My name is in it, please return it if found! ( love to send it back to Petzl if it's not in working shape.)
Brain led three times and I led three times, Brian led for about 15 hours and I for 12 hours. Kinda cool - I led 12 pitches and Brian led 15. - we kept to an hour a pitch. We topped out at 9:29:57 am. And stopped the clock where a "normal party" would have walked off.
Hans
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 27, 2004 - 04:29pm PT
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Avoid naming names?!?!? How the hell are we suppose to know who to beat to a pulp? ;-) Maybe that was your intent (to avoid such violence).
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2004 - 04:36pm PT
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Haa haa, No.... I just gave enough hints to give it away.
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 27, 2004 - 05:16pm PT
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Thanks for the post Ammon and Hans. It really sucks to here this sh#t still goes on in the Valley. I've had more bolts chopped on routes that were projects or established than anyone in the parks history. Last summer some bolts were chopped on Drug Dome that survived the bolting wars of the eighties. There are more than 45 chopped bolts there and I can name names from those days. Bacher, Kurt Smith, Dave Schults, Ron Skelton are some of the guilty. Part of the problem is right here in this forum. If you look at the threads from the past one will see many posts from bolt choppers that brag about how empowered they feel after going to their local crags and chopping. One is from a Jodi, a cop from S.LO. As a nobody in the climbing world i've never had a chance to tell the real history of the bolt wars but I have read crap from Rock and Ice, Pat Ament and H. Zak A. Hubers books that are total bullshit and don't tell the real deal, not even close. So my advise to you guys is to use your name and tell these chumps that are still chopping that they suck. Royal should be proud that people feel so empowered when they emulate him, what a sacklicker!!
NAME NAMES this will help point out to all what idiots these chumps are!!!
Oh yeah, almost forgot, you guys are bad to the bone!!!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 27, 2004 - 05:41pm PT
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Anybody have an idea of what would motivate somebody to do such a thing to a fine El Cap route? We know why Robbins chopped it but that's history, and he certainly didn't bobby trap the rivets.
My mind is reeling about how screwed up the actions depicted by Hans Email are.
Peace
karl
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Aug 27, 2004 - 05:50pm PT
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Attention?
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Alaska Beyotch!
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Aug 27, 2004 - 06:10pm PT
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C'mon ya wanks, enough beating around the bush. Everyone knows JIM BEYER is who we are talking about. When he put up Martyr's Brigade back in '02, he definitely was doing some chopping up there too. Go read his account in Alpinist Vol 1:
Beyer wrote, “I drilled a lot of bolts, but chopped about an equal number on surrounding routes. Creating hard pitches, destroying pathetic bolt ladders (Early Morning Light) – it seemed to balance out in the end.”
Is he responsible for ALL the stuff that Hans and McCray report? Likely so, but I guess only he knows for sure since he was up there solo. So now that the "mystery man" element is gone from the story...carry on.
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 27, 2004 - 06:20pm PT
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Beyer deserves some attention from a few knuckles. He chopped other bolts in the Valley in years past and thinks he's Gods gift. How about we gift that pussy a few fists.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Alaska Beyotch!
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Aug 27, 2004 - 06:36pm PT
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Beyer was in C4 the night he got down from that route. I distinctly remember him being there as I was having some drinks around a fire with some friends from Durango (they knew him from Durango). It was about the third week of May as I recall.
I only mention this because that was 2 1/2 years ago. Surely WOEML has been done a hundred times since then. I'm surprised that if this was JB's handiwork that it hasn't become an issue before now. BTW, I'm not defending anyone, just seems odd is all.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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Aug 27, 2004 - 07:01pm PT
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These are the types of actions that make climbing suck these days.
Someone should break this guys hands with a sledge hammer, and end his career forever ( and I'm not kidding in the least ). That is THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS's suggestion. What town does this clown live in?
" I only mention this because that was 2 1/2 years ago. Surely WOEML has been done a hundred times since then. " good point, we'll discuss it after the lynch mob is done.............
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2004 - 02:27pm PT
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The route doesn't get done that often. As many years I've been hangin' in the Valley I've only seen a couple of parties on the route. So it wouldn't surprise me that nobody has been up there for a few years.
Here's a pic of some of the destruction.
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bigwalling
climber
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Aug 28, 2004 - 05:06pm PT
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One word: LAME! Whoever did it is a complete jerk. That is just an act of vandalism.
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bigwalling
climber
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Aug 28, 2004 - 05:12pm PT
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Oh by the way, Beyer's line doesn't touch alot of those areas. It would have been a fair bit out of his way. It is closer to Hockey Night, and then it joins mescalito near the end of the seagull and climbs it for a ways. So for Beyer to chop the said rivets, he would have had to lower down and do it or something.
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Max
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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Aug 28, 2004 - 05:28pm PT
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I have seen similar destruction after a beyer cleanup on Zodiac. Flattened hangers, sketchy heads, and missing rivets plagued the route, although nothing close to the sort of mayhem on WOEML.
Though I myself have done a bit of chopping (re:drug dome), my feelings on those sorts of actions are very far removed from those of Beyer and also from Dmitri's portrayal. In my opinion chopping is only good when it renders the route more clean and aesthetic than before. Beyer's antics go in the opposite direction, even going so far as to endanger future parties. I have replaced just as many, if not more, bolts than I have removed, and I always try and remove all traces of the hole.
Have you been up on the drug dome route this season Dmitri? If you need some bolts I've got a few. You can usually find me down in the ditch.
So much can be said about this controversial subject, but I have to get back to work. Can't we all just get along??
Max
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Aug 29, 2004 - 02:54pm PT
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Umm, I'm going to have to come to Jody's defense since I saw him mentioned here. Jody is actually rather FOND of bolts from what I've seen - and unless something has changed he would never even try to get up Wall of Early Morning Light.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2004 - 12:43am PT
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UUhhhhh...... Nobody mentioned Jody's name.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2004 - 12:39pm PT
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umm, i'm going to have to come to the defense of buggs buny too, since i also saw him mentioned here-
it's true that he can be a wascal wabbit, but on the whole, he is a vewwy vewwy nice wabbit, and he mostly hangs out in holes and on the ground, and unles something has changed, there is no way he is going up the wall of early morning light!
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 30, 2004 - 01:22pm PT
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I mentioned Jody regarding previous threads about chopping. BEYER seems to be the one that could have done this. And thanks Max for the your view of chopping. I have a lot of respect for the honesty!! Back during the bolting wars there was no civil dialogue whatsoever. It's refreshing to have climbers discus this subject in a forum such as this. The vandalism on the WOEML is way over the top and Karl had a very good point... what could motivate someone to do this weirdness. The history of such actions are quite relevant, so this is why I brought up the subject of some of the written history. If you read the Ament book about Robbins, Royal says a few things that are just as closed minded as the vandalism on WOEML. And it's about stuff that went on in the Valley way after his time and he was very misinformed. This spew allows some to feel justified for other wacko actions. And climbers like Max spell out their own reasons for chopping and not all will agree but should respect. I really don't think Royal knows why he chopped WOEML and it's history. But don't disregard history, there could be insight that could help find the reasons why this happened again.
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ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 30, 2004 - 01:34pm PT
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.. there is nothing that can justify purposedly beating cables until they are ready to snap, or chopping rivets and then placing them so they will hold a small ammount of weight ..
.. thats criminal negligence ..
 ricardo
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 30, 2004 - 01:48pm PT
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BEYOND IS RIGHT. THE GUILTY PARTY SHOULD GET A SACK AND EXPLAIN.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Alaska Beyotch!
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Aug 30, 2004 - 02:55pm PT
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I don't know that he's listed in the Durango phonebook. My suggestion would be to call the dudes at Backcountry Experience (800)648-8519, they probably know how to get in touch.
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Southern Man
climber
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Aug 30, 2004 - 05:01pm PT
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Hey Jody:
Good to have you back, if only for one post. What are your thoughts on the "Abuse of Climber by Yosemite Law Enforcement Ranger"?
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 30, 2004 - 05:38pm PT
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JODY WROTE IN THE THREAD "CHOPPING" THAT AFTER HE CHOPPED BOLTS AT HIS LOCAL CRAG HE FELT SOME SORT OF POWER OVER HOW PEOPLE CLIMB. IF YOU WE JUST KIDDING, OH WELL! MABYE YOU SHOULD TAKE BACK YOUR LAME STATEMENT. OH ABOUT BAD LSD AND CALLING ME A MORON, IS THAT ALL YOU GOT? CHUMP!!! look back at your post May 16 2003
GROW UP JODY.... MORON, IDIOT.. OH TUFF STUFF ASSHOLE.
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 30, 2004 - 07:06pm PT
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Notified ... not so obvious to me. I don't think bolt chopping deserves such sarcasm. I should get used it it. The "chop away" I took as serious even after reading ALL of your posts. Thanks for the clarified statement and the insults. Does it matter? What matters is that there are not bolt chopping wars going on and when its just a joke I take it too personally. I get too hot with this stuff also so I am sorry as well. I do have a bad rep for this, I take it way too serious. And its good too see I was wrong about you, sorry.
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 30, 2004 - 07:29pm PT
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I apologize again and sorry for the distraction from the more important issue at hand.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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Aug 30, 2004 - 07:34pm PT
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The issue of what was done to the WEML goes beyond chopping - that route was both vandalized and sabotaged to hurt somebody. And By God ( hey- it's just an expression - get over it ) somebody ought to get hurt!!
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 30, 2004 - 07:40pm PT
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Fly'n Brian
Big Wall climber
Las Vegas
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Aug 31, 2004 - 02:43am PT
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Howdy folks, this is my first climbing forum posting, and what an excellent thread! I appreciate and enjoy all the support and feedback on the chopping topic.
Here's the bottom line. I am not a chopper and am not pro chopping. I am pro whatever. I want people to climb whatever they want however they want. Especially if they maintain a low key attitude. Pushing my own limits is what I'm into not pushing anyone else's.
I was really pissed when I found the chopped rivets, bolts, etc. as I climbed WEML. Especially because I flew to Fresno the night before and flew home the next day and I admit I really wanted a record time on WEML.
Anyway, Hans and I replaced 6 rivets on the route and pendulumed to more accepted routes to get through the other chopped areas when my rivet stash ran out we improvised and did have an excellent adventure (in hindsight).
I called Jim Beyer today to find out exactly what the deal was. He told me straight out he was the guy that "chopped that shit". He said WEML should have never gone up in the first place. He said he did not glue any rivets on to make 'em look good so not sure the deal there.
Not many climbers would have made it past the 1st pitch so I don't think Beyer was trying to hurt anyone, he just thinks climbers are lacking adventurous spirit and technically difficult ability and want to clip up the big stone.
I disagree with him on some things and agree with him in others. I do not condone his acts. I do like his crass, rogue attitude. It does offset the extreme other side. So we had a fun little conversation and he apologized that I had the experience that I had.
That's about it. Thanks for reading!
"Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law"
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 31, 2004 - 05:53am PT
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"I called Jim Beyer today to find out exactly what the deal was. He told me straight out he was the guy that "chopped that shit". He said WEML should have never gone up in the first place."
And here I thought Royal and Don took care of that thirty-four years ago.
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tyrone
Trad climber
california
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Aug 31, 2004 - 06:35am PT
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i don't like the idea of bolt chopping unless they're placed six inches to the left of a bomber crack....seven inchs or more is fair game...j/k, but regardless of where you stand on the issue wouldn't it at the very least be a moral obligation to remove the bolts and hangers from the rock rather than smashing them as shone in the picture above?? if he really gave a damn about "improving" the route then he'd of done this. instead, i think he must've done it to piss a bunch of people off and say that he's a better climber. i guess he thinks he's hot as snot on a silver platter, but he's really just boogers on a paper plate.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Aug 31, 2004 - 09:46am PT
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re: He said WEML should have never gone up in the first place
Wow, what as as#@&%e. If WH was around I'd love to hear his response.
RR goes up there 30 years ago and realizes you can't dictate your style on everyone and the route is valid so he stops chopping. But this nobody bozo thinks he knows all and takes it on himself to sabotage gear. WTF?
Yet again I'm amazed how people can be so deluded they can totally distort reality to fit their own self-righteous views and in their minds justify unjust actions.
Evil done in the name of good is still evil. In fact it's worse because it's hypocritical.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 31, 2004 - 10:10am PT
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Chopping bolts on WOEML is so passé...
One wonders why Jim didn't go up Highway To Hell and fill in all the bat holes.
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handsome B
Gym climber
Saskatoon, Saskatchawan
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Aug 31, 2004 - 10:39am PT
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Smashing hangers is not chopping,
it is downright vandalism, so we should
be calling it what it is. In my book, an
enhanced hooking hole is just 1/4 of
a bolt or rivet, so when you add up all
the chipping Jim Beyer has done you
end up with a pretty high lifetime bolt
count.
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Southern Man
climber
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Aug 31, 2004 - 11:48am PT
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Hey Fly'n Brian:
Just wondering, did Beyers go into any detail about why he thought the route shouldn't have been put up in the first place.
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10b4me
Trad climber
Where Fair Oaks meets Altadena
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2004 - 12:24pm PT
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hey dmitri,
two things
1) quit shouting
2) Jody is certainly not a bolt chopper. you should research threads so as not to take comments out of context.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 31, 2004 - 12:52pm PT
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There are situations where bolt chopping is a controversial act that, from a certain point of view has it's place.
This is not one of them. Vandalism and trashing a classic route on El Cap is not acceptable. Now that we have gone beyond mere hearsay and seen some pictures and heard testimony, I feel OK about saything that Jim can go screw himself with a cheater stick.
I mean, on one hand the guy doesn't have a problem putting up a route on Middle Cathedral that crosses Paradise Lost and effectively adds bolts to it, and then squeezes an even more unnatural line next to WEML and trashes it. Does he just make up his climbing ethics as he goes along to justify what he wants to do?
The wall of El Cap is not the wall of a subway station.
I'm just going to take a break from this posting before I say things I should think about first.
ARRGHh
Karl
PS Went to Solo WERL years ago but, since I had a job at the time, realized I might not make it back to work in time so I bailed. By chopping bolts on the first pitch, are we talking about the lead out free slab, or the steep pitch out of the corner of the alcove? I can't imagine anyone thinking that the free pitch was overbolted.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 31, 2004 - 02:05pm PT
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Hey Fly'n Brian, thanks for getting the story straight!
The new Alpinist (8) has a page from Beyer where he talks about chopping, good to read to get an idea of his train of thought.
Whatever your opinion (mine is that he's ego tripping), at least you can say one thing: he's not lying about it.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Aug 31, 2004 - 02:47pm PT
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Anyone who's interested in seeing bolts by a lovely 5.9ish crack should give a go at La Bella Luna on Fairview. Sporty bolting up friable face maybe 8 feet at the farthest away from a protectable corner. Check out the FA.
For other good times, give Paradise Lost on Middle Cathedral a whirl. Of course the retrobolt on one of the routes run outs is really from another route that just happens to run right up the middle of it. Not positive about the FAist, but he seemed to have a penchant for placing heads for pro, and rumor has it...
I'm all for people asserting their individuality and having a spirit of adventure, but it seems bogus to dash someone else's idea of adventure in the name of 'upping the ante' when some of your own creations are at odds with what you are foisting upon everyone else.
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 31, 2004 - 03:51pm PT
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Yo, 10b4me I will never quit shouting and if you look above I clearly stated I was wrong about Jody and I apologized twice. Don't think you can shut me up...not gona ever happen. And about Beyer, he will never learn to let people climb as they please. After chopping Cookie Monster years ago he was shoved around and thrown to the ground by someone that held back from doing way worse..... he is just a chump and has no right to tell others how to climb. WHO DOES?? OH YEAH 10b4me, pissss offff sacklicker!!!!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 31, 2004 - 05:23pm PT
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Hi Dimitri
Take it it easy here, ok ... , don't get too worked up,... life's short...
Werner
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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Aug 31, 2004 - 05:28pm PT
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" And about Beyer, he will never learn to let people climb as they please. After chopping Cookie Monster years ago he was shoved around and thrown to the ground by someone that held back from doing way worse..... he is just a chump and has no right to tell others how to climb " -
so pop a cap in him, drop him in the Merced and be done with it.
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DIMITRIBARTON
climber
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Aug 31, 2004 - 06:28pm PT
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No worries Werner. Still like SATANS post though. Pure entertainment . It would be a waste of a cheap bullet . And things are ok with Max and others that have said sorry, gave back bolt hangers, talked it over and then gone bouldering together. It's all good. Beyer though???????
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Aug 31, 2004 - 06:56pm PT
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About as mad as I've ever seen Karl.
People may disagree with Law and the boys up on Zodiac but at least they're creating a route. This is a hack job, a deviant just trying to f*#k with people. It's what happens when you put yourself apart from the community.
Lame.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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Aug 31, 2004 - 07:07pm PT
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Beyer is a jackass, is over rated, and has a small penis.
(that should do it from my end)
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2004 - 03:13am PT
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MajAhole,
Why do you think Ivo is an Asshole?
Don't you know the difference between restoring and DESTROYING?
Werner is right….. life is way to short for this BS!!
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Flash
Ice climber
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MajAhole wrote:"I know that treating people like sh#t comes back to bite you in the ass."
He also wrote the following:
"f*#k the police"
"Jody Sucks Balls"
"Hey Jody - your a right wing, conservative, LE loving, gun toting, sh#t talking, c*#k blowing, testical shitting,rectal wart having, cockmaster."
"I heard Russ has intimate knowledge of Beyer's Penis size."
"Jody takes Penis is the Poo Hole"
"Russ, Dimitri, Beyer, Hans - should all get together in one of those SF Bath Houses. I think Jody runs one that centers around handcuff fetishes."
"Yes, I was an abused child Jody. But you have to live with being a dick and a cop and that sucks worse than my situation."
Sounds to me like his username fits him well and, if his advice holds true, his ass is going to get bitten big time!
How do you know Jody, anyway? Sounds like you have a fetish for him, you freakin' homo!
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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MajAhole = Jim Beyer ?!!?!
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Flash
Ice climber
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Probably is...
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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someone should post a close up of Beyers face - right here, so if he ever decides to go to Yosemite and destroy classic lines he don't like, he won't know if the next person walking up to him is going to smash him in the face with a pin hammer and chop his nose off............
What's this guy going to destroy next, the Leaning Tower??
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
The climbing void
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When was WOEML vandelized?
Beyer can choke on my snorkelrod!!
I did it in late May and everything was hunky dori!! What a great route.
I noticed that the stars looked a lot cooler sitin in the portaledge at night than they do on my screen saver!
I still think you should be able to get thru the blank sections with an Russian adjustable friction hitch and a liter of bacon greese!
I bet there is some sum bitch out there that will help me re-bolt it next summer.
Tap,tap,tap......
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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A minor/trivial clarification on the names of the routes mentioned here:
Hans' post seems to be describing the "Hockey Night in Canada" start to the Dawn Wall (aka Wall of Early Morning Light). For example, see the topo on p.142 of Meyers and Reid (1987), or the equivalent topo in "Big Walls", etc. The topo indicates that the original Dawn Wall intersects Hockey Night above the end of pitch 6 (the long arch). If you've done the route, you'll also recognize that Hockey Night uses big dowells, while the Dawn uses rather small rivets, so it's easy to see on route which is which. Athough according to my own topo notes, the original Dawn Wall also shares the first half of pitch 1 of Hockey Night, then goes up and right after the second bolt. And my notes say the original Dawn joins Hockey Night at the top of pitch 4 (at the start of the long arch).
In between these spots are the Hockey Night pitches. So when Hans describes damage to pitch 3, I believe this is on Hockey Night. The original Dawn Wall pitches are to the right of this, and were the ones where Robbins and Lauria chopped the rivets back in 1970, before having a change of heart and leaving the upper route intact (above the original pitch 4, see "The Vertical World of Yosemite"). I recall that someone restored these original Dawn Wall pitches at a later date. I don't think that Robbins chopped the first 2 bolts on pitch 1, since they are shown in the 1987 topo. I haven't done all the original Dawn pitches (I did Hockey Night), so I could be wrong - maybe Hans was on them, or maybe he was on Hockey Night. But it sounds like Beyer's route is closer to Hockey Night, and the standard start for the Dawn on the topos is on Hockey Night.
So the point is ... ? Just that the damage to pitch 3 (including the photos of the bent bolt hangers and the dangling head) is most likely on Hockey Night, rather than on the original Dawn, and this pitch 3 was not touched by Robbins. None of this is very relevant to the point of the post, i.e. that damage/sabotage to a long existing and moderately popular route (whether it be Dawn or Hockey Night) is rather shocking. In terms of route evolution, I'd expect that the next couple of parties to do the route will bring some rivets and restore the damaged sections.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"But it sounds like Beyer's route is closer to Hockey Night, and the standard start for the Dawn on the topos is on Hockey Night."
yeah, that's what bigwalling said...
I don't understand how this guy Beyer can put up aroute that is contrived with lots of bolts, and at the same time chop another route which he believes should have never been put up. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
Also makes me kjinda sad, because I'd like to do WEMl someday, just for the classic factor.
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WBraun
climber
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Lambone, very good point!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Not only that, but the way in which the chopping was done makes me think that it is more about ego then care or concern for preserving the quality of the stone on El Cap.
I can understand the perspective of wanting to chop bolts inorder to restore the asthetics and quality of unflawed granite wilderness. However, if this is the goal...then the proper way to go about it is to eliminate all traces of the scaring as best possible.
Hammering the bolt hangers flat and sabotaging rivits does not work towards the goal of restoring a natural state....it is a statement, drivin by ego. Which is just as bad if not worse then the original scaring of the rock itself.
It's like cleaning up a nucular waste site by bulldozering all the 55 gallon drums into the ground so they leak into the groundwater table that flows into the neighboring city.
Just my 2 cents...
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bigwalling
climber
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There are lots of bolts that should be chopped! But in good style, unlike whatever happened here. WEML is what it is and I can tell you I have no desire to ever climb it. I don't think it should have ever been put up but that doesn't mean it should be destroyed.
Warren chopped his own route on the Porclein, so heres how I justify what I would do to the route if I ever went up there. Re-create the route, chopping now unnessary rivets and replacing needed ones. It wouldn't be sick but in areas where you can place heads and use hooks, beaks or anything new, the rivets are chopped.
http://rocknrun.net/Topos/Brigade.jpg
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stetind
Social climber
Sweden
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As a sidenote, it seems this thread solves a mystery for me. Did Mescalito beginning of June 2002 and was puzzled by a nearby route, which started right of Mescalito and at one point crossed it. All the heads on this route had the wires ducttaped, i.e. you had to remove the tape to clip them. Guess to prevent someone to use a cheater-stick? And it wasn't just the occasional head that had been ducttaped It was really ALL the heads. With all the physical and mental stress involved in climbing a bigwall (at least for me..) I couldn't belive that someone had energy to spare for this.
As Beyer's route went up in May 2002 I guess that was what I saw?
Erik
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2004 - 06:24am PT
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Whhhoaa, Bigwalling. That's a pretty BIG statement to say that "it should have never been put up". Brian said it's a pretty badass line.
Yeah, I think Clint is probably correct in his assumption. I remember seeing Beyer somewhere between Hocky Night and WEML.
I also know that Beyer tapes his heads. But, he puts a courtesy slit in the tape... ha haa haa. So, you can't stick clip it. Not sure what that is all about.
Everyone is throwing the "ego" word around but I'm not convinced his work is driven by that. Who knows…. Maybe it is.
I also like Lambone's post. I too, want to climb the route. In fact Brian and I are planning on a little vendetta soon.
I just think the whole smashing hangers and leaving the junk behind should NOT be accepted. I saw the same thing a few months ago on Shortest Straw, on the belay right below the circle.
Cheers!!!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2004 - 06:38am PT
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You HAD to ask...........
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macgyver
Social climber
Oregon
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Alas, we find that those guilty may have already been punished...
So the defaced face of the defacer is shown. Has Mr Beyer made any public comments about this other than the phone call mentioned above?
Rock on
mac
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I kind of like the duct taped head idea....pretty sporting.
Although the topo posted by Bigwalling on Ammons sites shows Byer used a 20ft cheater stick or something.....so again, seems like someone who talks out of both sides of his mouth.
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bigwalling
climber
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Oops, I didn't claify my commonet about it not bieing put up. I think it was a stupid idea to put it up at the time 1970. There were many other more natural lines to chose from. Mesclito is right next to it and far more natural, he could have climbed it. I don't think they had heads in 1970 though, which might be why the line required so many rivets. I have a feeling WEML was a line that shoulde have waited to been put up. I'm sure many rivets are not needed. Those pitches in Mac's topo show rivets next to fixed heads (or at least that's what it implys).
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bigwalling
climber
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Oh, if you guys go up there you should replace some of the junk dowel ladders. Do what Bryan said a while back, 1/4" with washers and a 3/8" every 6 bolts. Or something like that. It would make the route much better. But I would be pissed if there is heads next to bolts, like the Seagull and other parts. It was disapointing to clip bolts when there are heads next to you.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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To his defense (at least regarding his claims) on this one... a 20 ft. stick with a hook (or ice tool) on the end of it, is just a really big hook and still uses a natural featured. I'm kind of partial to being able to have a gander at what I'm hooking before climbing onto it, so in a way, it's can be a sketchier if not faster way to climb. It's his FA, and I don't think it's the same thing as using a 20 foot stick to snag a fat bolt at the anchor. As long as inform people repeating it that they'll need a 20 ft. hook to pass some blank sections, it's as good if not better than drilling, IMO.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"a 20 ft. stick with a ice tool on the end of it...."
that sounds like death on a stick!
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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I believe Beyers coment on such antics was
"Keeps the riff-raff away".
In Alpinist 8, he has a sidebar article, wherein he proudly spews about how he has chopped over 400 bolts.
What a wank
Irish
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! There was like a fifteen- or twenty-foot hook-on-a-cheat-stick move on Scorched Earth - pretty rad! I took the tent pole that coils inside my portaledge fly, duct-taped a pointed skyhook on the end, and attached a long sling with knots tied every two feet. The damn pole had so much flex the top of it swung three feet sideways while I tried to hook the edge.
Eventually I got it to stick. Unfortunately it held, and I had no choice but to climb up the damn thing. It was a long climb. Frig. Hands sweaty thinking about it. When I got up to the hook, I looked at the edge on which I was hanging, and I had missed the "sweet spot" of the lip by about six inches! You couldn't tell from twenty feet below! Anyway, I whipped another hook on the proper part of the lip, and tried to relax.
Nothing left but another three-quarters of a pitch of old school A5 rotten hooks and heads around "Big Brother". {shrug}
See you there soon! I'll be the guy climbing in the removable cast.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Karl,
Like you I deplore all bolts added to Paradise Lost. I would be overjoyed to go up there with you and remove them. I will spring for the epoxy.
Write me
Ben Wah
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samanthaclimber
Big Wall climber
usa
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"Re-create the route, chopping now unnessary rivets and replacing needed ones. It wouldn't be sick but in areas where you can place heads and use hooks, beaks or anything new, the rivets are chopped."
Uhhhhh.....I think this is exactly what Beyer claims to have done. He "cleaned up" nearby routes. you think that's lame???? then you're a pussy.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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give me high sierra climbing anyday, no bolts and no buttwipes to chop them
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Diesel_Smoke
Big Wall climber
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Hmm, I'll agree that just hammering the hangers till they snap or fold is a pretty shitty chopping job. However, I don't think the right to chop should be held any lower than the right to bolt in the first place. If I have ever heard truer words, it's that climbing is anarchy - It's what you wish to make it and you really shouldn't hold any expectations or reservations.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
Neatherworld, USA
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Some dipshit said this - " However, I don't think the right to chop should be held any lower than the right to bolt in the first place. If I have ever heard truer words, it's that climbing is anarchy - It's what you wish to make it and you really shouldn't hold any expectations or reservations."
Then it's ok if I decide to chop everything I climb??? this guy beyer is a semen sucking stooge!
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Diesel_Smoke
Big Wall climber
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What is stopping you from chopping the bolts you don't find necessary, or all of them? What is stopping Beyer? What is stopping people from adding bolts to existing routes? Bolts get placed, bolts get chopped, and unless it's a FA, they're both renegade acts(and FAs incongruent of regional ethics can be also). Climbing is what you wish to make it - a self-justice, it can be as dangerous or as safe as you want it to be.
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Sep 10, 2004 - 10:47am PT
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While he's no dobut a bad-ass aid climber, the general feeling I got from reading his sidebar article in Alpinist 8 was that he's severely antisocial, doesn't give a flying fXXk about anyone else, and is convinced that it should be his way or the highway.
But what do I know, I just flail at the Gunks ('till next Fall, when I hit the valley!)
Irish
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another Scott
climber
Richardson, TX
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Sep 10, 2004 - 12:33pm PT
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ok so the b*tch fest has sucessfully run its course...
This guy is an A$$HOLE.
So now what are we going to do about it.
The route is a part of the climbing history of the valley, and frankly I hope to do it some time in the future for that very reason.
What is the plan folks...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2004 - 12:52pm PT
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My plan is the same as your plan:
Hope that somebody with time, money and skills gets inspired for adventure and public service and fixes up the route so we go reap the benefits someday.
Thanks in advance
karl
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Gabe
Big Wall climber
Huntington Beach California
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2004 - 01:02pm PT
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The Shortest Straw beley that was smashed below the grey circle (did beyer think it was a huber beley?) was replaced by Bryan on our Zodiac clean-up. We kept the hangers and are thinking of somthing not so creative to do with'em.
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another Scott
climber
Richardson, TX
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Sep 10, 2004 - 01:55pm PT
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I lack the skill to complete the replacement but I would be willing to a$$ist in other way I can.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 10, 2004 - 01:57pm PT
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Nice work, Gabe. Please extend same to your bro and Bryan.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2004 - 02:04pm PT
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My plan is the same as your plan:
Hope that somebody with time, money and skills gets inspired for adventure and public service and fixes up the route so we go reap the benefits someday.
Thanks in advance
karl
classic-
and i couldn't agree more.
seems like what comes around usually goes around, and it all seems to come out in the wash, given enough time. i just wish everyone would get as worked up over the lies of gW as they do over various misdeeds on el cap!
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 10, 2004 - 02:14pm PT
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yeah, lets just hope whoever does plays by the rules and doesn't pull another T-Trip job...
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Sep 10, 2004 - 02:29pm PT
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"Hope that somebody with time, money and skills gets inspired for adventure and public service and fixes up the route so we go reap the benefits someday."
You live in the Valley, climb nearly full time, and use it to derrive much of your income...I bet the ASCA would provide the hardware if you would be willing to donate your time and skill...
Regarding the Trip...
Look at who did that work
http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/yosemitebigwalls.htm
And then look at who did the replacements on most of the rest of the walls.
Does this person talk about trying to make things better or do they do something about it? In the process they'll make a few mistakes, but I think it's better to risk making mistakes by trying to do something positive than it is to just talk forever about how things 'ought to be'.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 10, 2004 - 02:33pm PT
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"In the process they'll make a few mistakes"
hahaha...yeah whatever...::rolleyes::
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2004 - 03:20pm PT
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There is some truth in what you say Mellisa but there's just one thing.
When it comes to bolting, I'm like a neutral country. I don't chop, I don't drill. I'm not saying that's right or best, that's just what feels right for just me.
And with that, I don't really have the experience to do the job right even if I wanted to.
I might change my stripes someday, and I'll eat my words then, bur for now I'm going to remain lazy and imperfect.
burp
Karl
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Sep 10, 2004 - 03:34pm PT
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"When it comes to bolting, I'm like a neutral country."
I guess I said what I did b/c I often see you advocating for the retrobolting of some routes, the creation of other well bolted routes, thanking others for their replacement work, and in this case advocating for the replacement of dammaged hardware. Your stance doesn't seem neutral to me...more like you just prefer that someone else add the botls that you desire.
I have no doubt that with a minimum of instruction someone with your climbing experience would be a big asset to the ASCA if you chose to help with rebolting and route repair.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 10, 2004 - 03:58pm PT
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dude shut up...
who are you to tell karl what he should do or think. If he doesn't feel like bolting anything...but supports somebody who might....what's wrong with that?
you need to get off your high horse and stop insinuating that people suck.
and if you thing the Rebolting job on T-Trip has just a "few mistakes" then you need to get your head out of your ass...
ok, sorry back to the discussion.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Sep 10, 2004 - 04:07pm PT
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"and if you thing the Rebolting job on T-Trip has just a "few mistakes" then you need to get your head out of your ass... "
And my point was who the hell are you to insinuate that Erik sucks...or for that matter that my boyfriend does.
Or perhaps you were taking issue with their what they did on the Trip and not them? Just as I am taking issue with what Karl advocates but will not do himself.
Karl is my friend. I do not think he sucks at all. I hope that he knows that I find him very not-sucky. I disagree with him sometimes, even though he's got 25 years of experience on me and I am just supposed to kiss the ground when he walks by. If he want to unbefriend me because of it, that's up to him.
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2004 - 06:06pm PT
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such a touchy subject to some people...
melisa-
i see a big difference between "advocating" (or expressing an opinion) and actually taking a concrete action, and i see karl's self expressed neutrality as just that. an opinion can be reconsidered, can be debated, can cange over time, but an opinion does not change the rock itself.
kinda funny, the whole issue of yosemite bolting, but it's only those who are either the most passionate, or those who are the most "bold" (select your own alternative description) who actually get involved in the nitty-gritty, and they in turn are regulated by whom?
by those who are either the most passionate, or those who are the most "bold".
and then there are the rest of us, who just want to go climbing, and we only hope that nobody sticks it to us too badly...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 10, 2004 - 06:59pm PT
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Mellisa,
My intent wasn't to slam your bioyfriend...sorry you took it personaly. It wasn't even to slam the bolts currently on the Tangerine Trip. Thay would be hypocritical as I happily clipped them last year. No it was more the method used t get them there that bothers me...of whichj i didn't find out about until after the fact.
But whatever...I guess you could put me on karls team of opinionated yet neutraly inactive drillers.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 10, 2004 - 07:11pm PT
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what happened to the damn edit button?
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Matt
climber
SF
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2004 - 07:22pm PT
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i got an edit button, that feature must be only for the local CA 'matt's...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 10, 2004 - 11:22pm PT
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I like Melissa and don't have a problem having friends I don't agree with. I don't expect to be above question in any case. That doesn't mean she's right!
And in regards to the issue of bolting, I don't pretend to be perfect or admirable. I never felt right drilling bolts but I never felt bad clipping them.
That's the way it is. I try to make some kind of contribution to the community of climbers but it's not with a drill. I do have a lazy streak, maybe that has something to do with it as well, but the few times I've started to hammer in a bolt hole, it just feels funny to me.
Maybe it's the same sort of hypocrisy of those who don't mind eating meat but wouldn't raise an animal and later slaughter it for dinner.
I used to like nailing. At least I felt I was fairly good at it. But now I'm willing to stick my neck out to avoid hammering pins and heads into the stone as well. Just my preference, although I advocate for as clean a climbing as possible. For me, there is a difference between useful bolted belays and elegant but safe new routes, and willful damage to the stone and hammering cracks from knifeblades into boxy scars. One facilitates our sustainable use, and the other ruins the future. My opinions are just my perspective and I respect the perspective of others as well. In this world, we are all going to enjoy and suffer the fruits of other's ideas as time marches on.
Climbing is just getting started as a sport. The rock has already sustained quite a bit of damage in the short time that we have been playing on it. Let's be as smart with the stone and with each other as our tiny human brains allow.
Peace
karl
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Diesel_Smoke
Big Wall climber
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Sep 10, 2004 - 11:44pm PT
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--""and if you thing the Rebolting job on T-Trip has just a "few mistakes" then you need to get your head out of your ass... "
And my point was who the hell are you to insinuate that Erik sucks...or for that matter that my boyfriend does."--
He doesn't? Maybe that is why you come off as bitchy and castrating sometimes...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 11, 2004 - 01:20am PT
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This thread is already long and bleak. If anybody wants to flame anybody, lets start in on another thread so Jim can stay the main loser of this thread.
Or we can just call it a day.
Peace
karl
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Diesel_Smoke
Big Wall climber
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Sep 11, 2004 - 03:30am PT
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"This thread is already long and bleak. If anybody wants to flame anybody, lets start in on another thread so Jim can stay the main loser of this thread."
Indeed it is, Karl. But speaking of flaming - discussing Jim's actions are one thing. Flaming someone who isn't even involved in the dialog should be considered quite cowardly.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 11, 2004 - 11:40am PT
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Concur emphatically on the above.
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Ditch
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2004 - 03:06pm PT
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Whhhoaa!!! Sorry, I brought up a sore subject.
So, Brian and I went back up there a few days back. We tried to replace the bent hangers but didn't have the right tools for how damaged they were (we would've had to bring a BL setup).
After doing the route I can see Jake's point in wishing those features could have been saved for a later time. But, it is a classic line. The route climbs some really cool parts of the wall.
It would be tragic to see this route turn into a botch job. I say, LET THE RIVETS STAY. Some of those belays could get beefed up, though.
So I guess the most important beta for the route now, is the pendi into Mescalito (7th pitch) and the free climb to the Reticent anchors (12th pitch), for another pendi. It takes a little longer, but seems like a reasonable way to do it.
Yep, I've met and hung out with Beyer, too. Fun guy, lots of great tales. He got me psyched to get on some harder ground. I hope he doesn't take offence in disagreeing with him, on the way he left those hangers.
That's all.
Cheers!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 22, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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Just a bump, and to inquire if anyone knows the status of the route now? I am looking for a moderate route on El Cap to climb next spring [one I haven't done since I don't repeat routes] and WOEML is an obvious candidate.
I am not averse to replacing rivets and bolts if need be - I would just like to know what and where and how many.
Cheers,
Pete
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Dec 22, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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"Beyer is a jackass, is over rated, and has a small penis." pretty much sums it up !! Absolutely classic Russ !!!
Cracko
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 22, 2007 - 10:16pm PT
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L
climber
The Mythos of the World That Will Be
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Dec 22, 2007 - 10:29pm PT
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Nice photo Ed. Really nice.
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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Dec 23, 2007 - 10:48am PT
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If it's not your route leave it alone!!!! Who do you as#@&%es think you are? Destroying a route for your own gain !! Bolt choppers need to be beat!!!!! Go home barneys.
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captain chaos
climber
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Dec 23, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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Anyone who does something like this to routes should be banned from the valley... its malicious intent endangers climbers lives who do the route next and whom may not be privy to the changes made, which means they may not be prepared to deal with the situation properly, thus being the possible cause an accident. Should an accident occur, it then endangers the rescue teams lives who may have to go in and deal with someone who got injured by these vandalistic actions. Also, Warren is not here to defend himself, which makes it even more pathetic, its an chickenchit insult directed at one of Yosemite's most colorful and prolific pioneers. Werner, talk with the boys and get this dick banned, there's no excuse for these kinds of actions and its just a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured or killed due these kinds of malicious actions.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Dec 23, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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Ed, that is a beautiful picture. I like the way that wall kinda catches the light, maybe sometime in the morning early.
Does it have a name?
;-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 23, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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a name is just words
their meaning fleeting as the sunlight and shadow
one hiding
one seeking
and between the two the penumbral meaning
one illuminating
one obscuring
all at once yet timeless
even as it defines time
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 23, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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Ed Hartouni and this man- separated at birth??
Read Ed's post above before you decide.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Dec 23, 2007 - 08:48pm PT
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Bump!
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Sep 12, 2009 - 04:39pm PT
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Not to bring back old animosities, but does anyone know if the damage has been fix on Woeml? If not, I was wondering how much damage, and volunteer to help next spring to fix it.
Adam
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Boise....
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Sep 12, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
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Good community mindedness, there, bro.
Yeah, sometimes folks get carried away with their own shizz, no matter how dumb & weak it is.
Wish they'd just calm down, huh?
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Apr 16, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
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That’s the spirit Donny! I’m off to dinner but will get back to blasting the navel gazing off the front page in favor of MSTGA threads when I’m done.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 16, 2019 - 05:15pm PT
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If I were to climb a route and find that it is over bolted, rather than chopping, I would just report which bolts I skipped and how I protected that particular section without the bolt or bolts. Then others can know what is possible.
There is always context. I have heard that the final bolts on the Nose that were put in by Harding could have been protected in other ways by features close by. But he had been up there for a long time, it was night, and he couldn't see, and was anxious to finish. With such a long, pioneering adventure, it is understandable. You have to cut him some slack.
When WEML was put up, and Robbins heard that nearly 300 bolts were used, his initial reaction was, "That is one bolt every 10 ft. or so, on a 3,000 ft. wall, it sounds like too many for there to be a natural line." But when he got up there it didn't seem as bad as he thought.
At Tuolumne the tradition has always been to be judicious with bolts. A classic example is the Dikes Route, which originally had only one bolt; then the 1st ascensionist gave permission to add two more. But not eight more, that would make the route lose the excitement and adventure. Same with Bachar-Yerian. There are just enough bolts to keep you alive if you fall, but no more. Maybe in some areas, they began with a different ethic, but it seemed everyone liked it that way up there. If someone added a lot more bolts to BY, it would be more accessible and more frequently done, but wouldn't be the same climb as it was for those who did it a more minimalist way. But even if someone did that, I wouldn't chop it. If Bachar were alive, and he wanted to chop it, let him, but not anyone else. Life is too short.
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