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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 14, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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It’s ironic that those making the loudest noise about “clean” climbing are the very same that have made a very high impact on the rock. Putting up first ascents, installing bolts, rivets, fixed gear, chipping “constructive” placements, are all VERY high impact to rock climbing.
I think it’s a general consensus that we as climbers strive to do both, low impact climbing and make “clean” placements if at all possible. But, there are some exceptions. Everyone has a unique set of circumstances and we must acknowledge this.
Should a climber with children at home make the same risks as the young buck who doesn’t have the responsibility of putting food on the table for his family? Should the two hundred plus pound beginner make the same placements as the hundred and twenty pound veteran?
Some elitist attitudes would say “yes” to both questions. Or maybe they would say; they shouldn’t be up there in the first place. I call bullshit! We all have the right to be on the rock. We should regulate ourselves as a whole. But, it seems that a few have taken it upon themselves to dictate the rules… Beelzebub comes to mind
One of these dictators said in an interview; after being asked if he would go back and finish a route he started:
“Oddly enough, it just seemed like a silly route to me, just something to do at the time. I probably should go back up there, but it wasn’t such a great prospect.”
How many other “silly” routes has this person installed? How much impact is putting hundreds of bolts in the rock? Is installing permanent bolts considered “clean”? How much impact is it to dumb-down the rock by manufacturing clean placements, so thousands of climber’s can do their routes?
We all make some kind of impact while rock climbing. We should all strive to keep it as low as possible. The dictators should take a deep look within themselves and figure out why they are being so loud; to teach, or to be heard?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
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Hrm...I smell a larger drama behind the question.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:33pm PT
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you are correct of course ammon.
although i dont know this beezleboo or whoever that is.
pitonron rants all the time about clean climbing but has carved holds in the rock before to make something more climbable. for some reason that does not sound too clean to me
plus, he complains about how through shear numbers the routes are being destroyed. while this may be true, the only course of action sounds like to ride in the damn tourist cart and stay only on paved trails and dont touch the rock, just look.
most of us found that was not too exciting otherwise we never would have been involved in this activity....
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:03pm PT
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hammering can be fun, but really 99% of the time, it don't make much sense. didn't the climbing world already figure this out, what back when i was a twinkle in my dads eye?
f*#k clean climbing, the next new rage is going to be old school ALL IRON ascents of the big stone.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Knob Central
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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Haha, well all of MY Routes are perfect!
As for those new guys....
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jstan
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:38pm PT
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There are two components to the larger problem.
1. Expectations. When people come to an activity they come with expectations partly conditioned by personal characteristics and partly conditioned by their prior experience.
2. Population. When a resource is shared by a rapidly increasing population, inevitably, people will get increasingly less of that which they seek. Either because the resource is simply not available or because it has been changed by its users.
In 1970 I looked at the recreational statistics of the day and it looked very hopeful that US population would level out at 250 million or so. This in combination with less damaging methods of use( trails, nuts, etc) and an increased realization that we need to reduce our impact upon each other would ultimately allow much that we knew to be preserved.
It will not happen.
Will we someday see dayglo orange holds bolted onto the Captain’s Face? Probably. Will there be TV star climbers wearing thong bikinis? Without doubt. Will humans ultimately destroy the planet and themselves? The number of people who believe so – is increasing.
I don’t say this to be discouraging. There is something sad here but to get at it I need an extreme analogy. If it pleases me to smash my thumb with a hammer all day every day, is that sad? No, because it is my choice. Now imagine I am in a room elbow to elbow with people, all of whom are busily smashing their thumbs. Is that sad? It is not sad if the room has a picture window looking out on the Maroon Bells with the aspen in full color and kids in the meadow throwing cartwheels. It is not sad because they know there are things other than thumb smashing, and they choose to continue. It is sad if there are people in that room who have never been exposed to anything other than thumb abuse.
That is very sad.
Now I don’t want anyone to think I am drawing a parallel between thumb abuse and dayglo orange holds. I most certainly am not. Anyone who does draw that parallel is doing so entirely on their own.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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all routes are silly
all routes are just something to do at the time
only werner know what is meaningful, and i don't think he'll say it's this route or that route.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:42pm PT
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as are those who climb them.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:43pm PT
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and argue about them and the style they went up in
or were repeated in, for that matter
=)
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:03pm PT
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"It’s ironic that those making the loudest noise ...."
That must be me as I sing you this song.
Help me if you can I'm feeling down ...
Because we are standing here on the ground ,,,,,
Won't you please, please, help us get off the ground.
Time to rack up boys, and blast off.
It'll be grand!
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:11pm PT
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As mentioned in the other thread and alluded to by Ammon, one of the biggest factors contributing to how low impact we can climb is a variable we can't control. To completely ignore that there are vast differences that separate us, individually -- both mentally and physically -- is purely ELITIST. It is to say "I can climb 5.13 -- why can't you? And if you can't why do you bother? Please don't waste your time dreaming you can climb my 5.13 if you don't use the holds I've used and shouted "SEND!" the way my hommies do." I certainly can't climb 5.13, but if the route is compelling enough I may try to find my own way to make it to the top. I may bust out my aiders and hooks. Ooooooo, but won't that have some impact on the rock? Yeah. And so does your chalk, your sweat, your rubber, your tape, your bolts, your anchors, etc.
In the case of clean climbing an aid route I'm in agreement with most everyone involved in the discussion. Climb as clean as possible. But you can't ignore that I'm less talented than Ammon. You can't ignore the laws of physics that would allow a flared #1 HB offset to remain in place for Beth Rodden, but not for me. And if there is no other alternative placement what are my choices? Believe me, I'll look for another way and use every tool in my arsenal, but if placing a sawed-off is my last option between upward progress and bailing...what would you do?
I'll go one step further. Let say we're talking about a variable we can control -- courage. There's a lot more grey area for this factor, but some of you would insist that unless I'm willing to look the reaper in the face, give him a French kiss, and climb C5 that I don't have any business on the route. Well, I think that's bullsh#t. I will climb as clean as possible, BUT I'll also be the one deciding the risk factor I'm willing to take. I have no shame in saying that. If you want to think your big brass balls make you a better man (or woman) and that you're doing such a monumental service to the climbing community by stringing together 20 c4+ placements in a row over "broken pelvis ledge" then by all means think what you want! You can even walk up to me and mock my small nads if it makes you feel better. I couldn't give a flying f*#k.
I'm just suggesting that we stop with the dick measuring contest when it comes to clean climbing. There are some who need to be convinced that they need to strive for less impact, but most of us don't. Stop splitting hairs with me about the small sh#t. You're not superior because you sent a route clean. My hats off to you for your accomplishment, but do try to diminish mine with your pretentious egos.
Ed
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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Ammon...
say, ain't you that dude I heard about on the internet that was doing all these climbs really fast and shiit, and then one day you placed a pin or something in a blind placement over a roof and fukked up your whole legacy as a fast as hell, big set O'nuts, cool asss guy? yeah... that's the guy. I used to really dig him, but after placing that pin he is fukked and if I see him I'm gonna do something. Hear that son!?! I'm-a gonna do something...... I better see you at the Shiit Talkers fest so I can do something..... missed you last time, but I did not know about all this shiit last time so things will be different this time 'cause I'm gonna do something......
(what sort of beer do you like?)
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:22pm PT
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Ed
You sound very insecure.
If you were secure about yourself you wouldn't need to constantly defend your style and relate everything else about this topic as somebodies ego trip and elitist attitude.
Take it easy man it's just climbing, and don't run any red lights.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:22pm PT
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I'm just suggesting that we stop with the dick measuring contest when it comes to clean climbing. There are some who need to be convinced that they need to strive for less impact, but most of us don't. Stop splitting hairs with me about the small sh#t. You're not superior because you sent a route clean. My hats off to you for your accomplishment, but do try to diminish mine with your pretentious egos.
now if everyone just free climbed, this would all be so simple!
besides, if yer pullin/standin on yer gear, what the hell is so proud about it anywayz?
like evolution (in another thread), it's just a matter of perspective.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:27pm PT
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If Chouinard had published an essay to the effect of "You f@#$ing punters are pounding those pins because you're selfish and lack the sack to climb w/ these-here nuts," I wonder if people would still be climbing at the Cookie Cliff w/ pitons...just for spite and 'cause it would actually be harder?
I'm all for clean climbing, but sometimes the more extreme points of view and the rebuttals that they generate actually make me be more sympathetic to the fact that a range of experiences exist and are probably appropriate.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:33pm PT
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Oh-oh oh oh oh-oh-oh
Oh-oh oh-oh oh-oh oh-oh
Oh-oh oh oh oh-oh-oh u can't touch this
Oh-oh oh oh oh-oh-oh break it down
Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh
Stop Hammer time
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:35pm PT
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Werner, as the debate goes on I'll continue to put in my $.02 where I see fit. If there's no debate then we've all arrive at a consensus (and we haven't) or I've convinced everyone I'm right (not a chance), or the opposing viewpoint has convinced me I'm wrong (not likely, but it's happened).
How about Steve? Is he insecure for continuing to reiterate his point? Are you just upset that I'm a little passionate about my point of view? I tend to get passionate about things when people suggest that I shouldn't or couldn't do something. Does that bother you?
Don't fall asleep at any green lights...
Ed
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:36pm PT
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ed,
i think the clean climbers are gonna tell you that it aint a dick measuring contest, its what you do with it man....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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OK I just got back and will have to give this a read, but off-hand my reaction is annoyance at others attempting to put words into my mouth.
Seems like some people can't embrace the difference between certain concepts like clean vs hammerless.
Or the idea of having a proactive impact vs unintentional negative impact.
more later
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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Ammon says I want to climb low impact and clean.
Wrong.
Granted that there ARE some impacts that I wish to avoid and in order of priority they would be:
1) Me. I've fulfilled my quota of personal physical trauma. I believe that the overwhelming majority of our community share in this value.
2) Placement destruction. Hey, holds sometimes break but seem to be largely durable. But even if they DO break there may be other options. But placements are potentially more critical.
Why?
(see priority 1)
3) Drag trails. I'm afraid Ed's anti-elitist attitude doesn't hold water when it comes to hauling bivy gear up Zion walls. The damage is now highly visible.
4) Trash. This includes uneeded fixed gear. Fortunately this CAN be dealt with.
I never said I always employ low impact techniques to ESTABLISH routes, quite the contrary.
But what some stick in the muds can't seem to wrap their narrow minds around is that my priority is the DURABILITY (not to mention enjoyability) of the routes I establish.
And THAT is why I advocate SUBSEQUENT hammerless ascents. You can't repeatedly whack on your climbs and expect them to last for subsequent generations of climbers, and all too often I fear todays climbers couldn't care less about them.
As for the numbers Hawkeye, we need to recognize the problems and manage them, not play blame games.
Tim, I'm disappointed in your cynicism.
stzzo, kudos for seeing the hypocrisy.
Ed, how about ackowledging that there are cumulative effects to your brand of excusing the fudging.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:02pm PT
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well on the other hand (devil's advocate), if some hammock sleepers decided it was super proud and worthy to sleep in a hammock in the middle of an open granite cliff, and they then decided to bolt their way up featureless crackless granite to get to the most extreme and isolated positions, who would YOU be to tell them that they were destroying the rock?
couldn't they look you in the eye and say that you destroy the rock as you see fit, when and where you decide it's ok, and as you openly disregard anyone else who says your impacts upon the cliffs are too great, so in turn do they?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:05pm PT
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So, the first rule of thumb is to save yourself.
If you die saving the rock?
What have you done?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:08pm PT
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Matt, you're talking about the extreme of one end of the spectrum. There is much more consensus on the ends -- I'd say nearly unanimous. It's the grey areas like this where, IMO, there's just no point to the hair splitting about who's style is better or more acceptible. We're all in agreement that we strive to climb in as low impact a style as possible.
Ed
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:15pm PT
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"We're all in agreement that we strive to climb in as low impact a style as possible."
This isn't really true. We've all decided that a certain amount of impact in the pursuit of climbing experiences is acceptable, and we all draw the line for what that amount is in different, perhaps similar, places.
If it was really just impact on the rock that got people twisted, you'd think people would fuss more about Shultz Ridge and Mecca or the big white stripe beside Reed's Direct or the haul bag stripes on the Column or climber trails or...
Clean and hammerless climbing do go hand in hand in my opinion. Leaving the hammer at home on an established route that uses fixed gear isn't a very interesing statement to me. Going hammerless on new routes is something that I strive for (but don't always do.)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:22pm PT
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An important thing to discuss. I think Ammon's OP was mostly big wall specific, but have some general thoughts. John's thread a week or so ago, about bolts, was quite relevant to this stuff.
I believe that some general principles apply to almost all climbing and climbers, in terms of the environment:
 It is done voluntarily, for a variety of personal goals.
As living consuming members of developed countries, our individual and collective personal impacts on the environment are almost certainly unsustainable. Those impacts are likely more important than those from climbing, in the big picture.
Climbing has both real and perceived impacts. To outsiders, e.g. land managers and the public, the latter are as important as the former. A bolt in and of itself usually has trivial real environmental impact. It has enormous perceived or symbolic impact. It says to others "If someone is willing to place one bolt, they may be willing to do anything. This is just a start. And with bolts come trails, climbers, cleaning, and impacts."
Environmental effects are on both the natural and the human environment, assuming that they can be distinguished. (Are humans "natural"?)
There are some absolutes, but many more relatives, when it comes to assessing and minimizing impacts. A multi-variable equation.
No one has the right answer, but some are or claim to be in a position where they do, or at least that they have the right to decide.
As climbers and individuals, and as a community, we know we need to do much better.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:23pm PT
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for some people, breaking bottles and spray painting their lovers name is ok, and there is a large group that feels that way, so is that like a concencus?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:24pm PT
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proactive impact is correct Ron.
e.g. single trail built, rather than multiple braided trails stamped out. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this aspect, not just on the walls and placements.
"Stop Hammer time"
should actually read
"Stop,... Hammer time."
heh
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:26pm PT
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Our gym is hammerless.
Lotta chalk though!
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Rocky5000
Trad climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:49pm PT
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I'm with Jstan on this type of thing; as in many other aspects of modern life, population pressure makes any kind of unpleasant behavior far more visible to all. It isn't a moral issue; no amount of rule-making and enforcement will make us all happy when the boat is getting crammed rail-to-rail. No matter how carefully you swing your hammer it will hit some poor schmuck in the eye. Force us all to drive microscopic hybrids and we'll all just go insane that much more efficiently, slowly swarming back and forth in the sluggish arterials of the megacity...
No matter; nature takes care of these imbalances eventually. It won't be pretty, though. I'm going to emigrate to Pluto. Be awhile before the cliffs there get holds bolted on them.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 08:54pm PT
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Ah trails. Wonderful subject! Below Carderock there were, after a time, NO PLANTS ANYWHERE. But that place has a special problem. Suffice it to say, this is the last thing you would choose.
If you have ever seen the mountain laurel in bloom you would not choose to destroy that. Long ago in the Gunks much of the laurel was suffering. There too we had a discussion - among friends. I put up some blue ribbons just to see if there was any way to get our arms around the problem. Quite appropriately, a friend of mine immediately took them all down. But yes, an answer was possible. We found one of the answers almost by accident while working with the Preserve to buid one of the first trails.
Being complete idiots we were not sure what we were doing until someone said, " Look. If we are to keep traffic off the laurel we need to build something that will not be used because it is the easiest way. We need to build something a climber just can't resist going up. And if we build it out of rock with all odd angles it won't even look like a trail."
In a sense, the way up to the cliff became part of the route.
Borrowing from "The Graduate". I am going to say one word. You don't need to reply.
Design.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:11pm PT
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Yeah.
Thats the ticket.
My routes are designer routes.
They're like sausage. Tasty, but you don't want to know how they're made.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:14pm PT
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aww common, that wasn't even trolling, that was just being a cynic. if that was trolling, that was about damn near the worst job ever!
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Evdawg
Trad climber
Sacramento/S. Tahoe
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Jun 14, 2007 - 10:29pm PT
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speaking of clean climbing? are pitons even allowed anymore??
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jstan
climber
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Jun 14, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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ED:
You are smarter than I if you can figure out what is what today. Speaking as a figure in a darkened corner of a very old room, pitons were something one used if truly needed. But in using them one knew there were tradeoffs each person had to make - for themselves.
J
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YetAnotherDave
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jun 15, 2007 - 03:58pm PT
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There's one thing I'm fuzzy on as far as 'hammerless' climbing, especially on softer rock: It seems to me that nut placements often come out more easily and with less scarring if you give a light upward tap with a hammer rather than yard on the cable. If the goal is minimal scarring, then I'd advocate carrying a light hammer to ease nut cleaning. As a bonus, it keeps the cables on your brassies from getting horribly kinked.
Especially since cams induce more wear than nuts in soft stone, I'd expect that clean climbing advocates would be vocal in pushing nutcraft, and minimal-damage cleaning, rather than just saying "leave the hammer at home".
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jstan
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
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Of course it all depends, but the nut tool is generally massive enough to do the job.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:23pm PT
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Astute observation Dave.
When I did the first hammerless ascents of a number of climbs I hadn't anticipated such continued degradation.
This is a serious long term problem!
It will probably come down to fixing a lot of gear and clipping up these routes just to enjoy the scenery.
Although not an enticing prospect the people that hope to experience ascents that recreate the experience that the first party had are kidding themselves anyway.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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how many ascents did you have to do and how many days did you spend on Touchstone beffore you got it hammerless ron?
i am just curious. i dont think you just walked up and did it hammerless and these conversations are (i think) pertinent to this discussion.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:51pm PT
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It went hammerless on the seventh ascent, May, '81.
My fifth time up the route.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
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Thinking about the number of days but I really can't say.
The times I did the first 100m but didn't summit made a critical difference in seeing through the process, using constructive scarring to remove the pins and fixing some needed gear.
The route is a hell of a lot different now. The bolts I later added to the start and the finish make it a grade easier/shorter but almost nobody uses the initial ladder for what it was intended (simul-climbing by the second so that the first two pitches, the "aid" section, could be run together).
Likewise the mid-stations, which were to allow one party to rap past an ascending party, are often used as belays which cocks things up sequence and rack-wise.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
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is that an ER situation riley?
if the maximum goal of clean climbing is to do it clean, then ron has done a great job.
if the goal was to have some form of going for it then by some climbers perspectives if it took several ascents of climbing a grade V with constructive scarring techniques may be a form of "building a vertical path."
i am merely playing devils advocate here. i admire rons ascents. to me it took balls to go up the routes he did, many times all alone, on an unclimbed bigwall. on a medium that at the time, was considered unsafe in the extreme. and maybe ron has done some routes without a hammer on the FA which of course takes HUGE balls.
the other thing is that there are a huge number of climbers that have started big wall climbing on rons routes. now you can either say that is good, or it is bad depending upon ones perspective.
i am not out to pick on pitonron. like i said, at the time he did those routes i though solo was pretty amazing. perhaps not a step up in terms of style when compared to jello's ascents, but nobody can match jello's style and boldness. maybe his cousin, but thats about it.
when you factor in pitonrons routes and constructive scarring techniques that were clearly controversial in the early 80's, history might conclude that there really was nobody better for the task at hand. i sincerely believe that.
what i am trying to point out that this whole clean as a whistle on every placement crap could run counter to the boldness of going for it with little or no knowledge.
in free climbing the onsite is the best way to send. walk up to the climb and do it with no beta. but i am merely suggesting that this is contradictory perhaps to doing your best job on a wall to go clean by reading every ST post there ever was on a climb.
sorry, i am throwing out an old timers perspective.
ron, just to make it clear, i aint picking on you but i think you as an advocate of clean climbing and a pioneer on soft rock with all your years of experience have some examples that can be thrown in the mix.
compare that to say a guy like ammon, who i have never met, (but have huge admiration for) who jumps on a wall he has never done and tries to do it in a push? to me that represents the boldness part of the equation.
pitonrons ascents represent tenacity.
tenacity and boldness are both things admireable and necessary qualities in good climbers. i tend to believe in the modern day era of internet route beta there is less of the boldness stuff going on. that is my point by this whole line of thought....
carryon.
EDITED to add,
riley, a big bong in the ass mite be the worst if that is your thing
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:12pm PT
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Dave,
The point you made about using a tap hammer to tap nuts out is exactly what I do. I don't pull wires due to scaring.
I never claim a hammerless or clean ascent. I really don't care. I just try to climb as clean as possible without damaging the sounderings any more than I have too.
No matter how clean we think we climb we impact the environment one way or the other. Just try to do the best that I can.
Cheers,
john
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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Ron....
"My routes are designer routes.
They're like sausage. Tasty, but you don't want to know how they're made."
Bwa ha ha ha, Ohh Sh!t, That's funny! Bwa ha ha ha!!!! (whiping a tear from my eyes)
Now that's honesty!!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:23pm PT
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that is isnt it....
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:10pm PT
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Gawd!
Why on earth would I think you are picking on me Hawk? I'm flattered.
But to fill in some of the gaps;
The south face of Cerberus took much work to become the Touchstone Wall, but even on the FA I saw the potential.
It all became part of a learning curve, a progression.
In September '83 I went on to do the FA of a grade V without pin placements but WITH a partner (although I soloed the first three pitches of Catharsis before Mark Pey arrived).
Then on 4/9/88 I made the FA of the Spearhead without any hammered anchors for aid (some pro bolts, some people say not enough and others say too many so I got it about right).
Since then pretty much every route I've put up has any needed hammered anchors fixed. The exception was when the Bird hijacked my rack and I tagged along in order to recover the scraps.
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