Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 52 of total 52 in this topic |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 4, 2007 - 10:39pm PT
|
Just spent some time around Washington Column. The general trash situation was actually pretty good with only one idiot's crapbag in the forest.
The one exception was some empty water bottles here and there.
Now there's definitely a debate to be had over whether it's good to leave "fixed water" if you bail on a route. The NPS would certainly say "no" but I have a hard time pouring out water when I know some guy dying of thirst may show up in a few days and that water would be his saving grace.
But I will say this and please state your disagreement if you see it differently:
If you drink wall water, you are therefore obligated to carry out the bottle. It's lame to leave a small amount and think it's the next guy's problem. That's like leaving a sip of milk left in the carton in the fridge.
Drink Wall Water, Carry out Wall Bottles, or go thirsty. Period
(FYI, carried out three empty bottles I didn't drink from but couldn't bring myself to deal with the crap bag as our tube was full of it already)
Peace
Karl
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I agree.
If you're going to leave it then leave it mostly full at least.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
Yes, only full bottles.
Man law.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2007 - 11:17pm PT
|
I might disagree with some of the above. If somebody leaves a gallon and you only need a quart, use a quart , leave the rest, and resolve to pick up empty trash along the way. Just don't leave a pint and call it good.
Waste not, want not
Peace
karl
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
I drink it, I leave it, I always carry out the empties.
|
|
james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
|
|
Karl, how was the climb? Our party of three got off the Prow on Sat. There was a party of two in the trees below the summit that I never actually saw but talked to. They asked us if we were you, and if we had some xtra H2o. We brought enough to bathe in after the climb and leave a gallon. I have developed a phobia of running out. Needless to say they seemed pretty psyced that we had left the gallon to make their bivy a little more comfy. I went back to the base today to get an extra haul bag we left behind at the start, almost got clocked by someones poop tube that had fallen out of their pack at the base of the S.F. Picked up three empty crushed coke bottles at the base and a cliff bar I dropped, couldn't locate the jolly rancher I lost. bummer.
James
|
|
elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
|
|
Use a marker to put the date on all water bottles you haul up.. for obvious reasons
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
james, you should know better. There is no way that jolly rancher was going to survive one night out in the cold. Not with the booty-hounds prowling the base... no sir.
|
|
Rock Hopper
climber
|
|
Leave No Trace. After all, its only just more trash lying around. Also the water can quickly develop all sorts of bacteria and bugs, possibly giving the next guy (if there is one) the runs.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
I'd agree with Karl's thoughts here. I've left full bottles at bivis/ledges, and even the base (in plain sight) for parties that will inevitably need it. Especially on trade routes.
I'll throw this out there too, since I've seen it a number of times. What about things like canned food? I've seen canned food, stacked in plain sight on ledges near the top and at the base of climbs, as an offering to those who may have carried less and wanted/needed more. What's the feeling on this? I'm not as much a fan of this (haven't done it myself).
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
seems like good policy to always cary out more trash than you carry in.
I think the marker idea is a good one if you're leaving fixed water- but probably a better idea to take a bottle bath on top and carry the empty down. Especially on the Column where you're never really a life threatening distance from water - either on the ground or the arches spring.
Any of you supertopo scientists know what the shelf life of wall water would be before it becomes a health hazard?
Canned food edit: I think same as above should apply mark it if you're gonna leave it and probably shouldn't leave it on shorter routes - where you can be on the ground or at the deli within a few hours.
On the other hand- leaving beer for those less fortunate, anywhere in the park is an
ethical, altrustic, noble thing to do.
|
|
Ricardo Carlos
Trad climber
Off center, CO.
|
|
Ran out of water on Pan Am Baja. found a can of soup almost at top. Gave the boost needed.
I really do not know from S+it or shinola buy doesn’t the suns UV rays keep the water drinkable for along time?
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
Hey Mike,
Did ya carry out the empty, leave it fixed, or carry the half of fith (a two and a half?) down to where you could add a splash of water?
Hope all's well with you and yours.
Cheers.
I wonder if the King Cobra was the Rummy equivalent to leaving a little for Jah?
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 12:26am PT
|
"Karl, how was the climb? "
It was about enjoying nature, comradeship and helping my partner get his aid chops up to speed. I'd consider it a success as he went from taking about 3 hours to lead pitch 2 of the South Face to 1.5 hours to lead a similar section of the Prow later on.
Nice weather, and good to meet Ya'll. I'm paranoid and brought too much water as well.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
|
|
I agree with karl. We tried to take every piec of litter/garbage on our trip up the prow this weekend. Actually the route was very clean. I recall see almost no garbage on the route. However we didI agree with Karl. We tried to take every piece of litter/garbage on our trip up the Prow this weekend. Actually the route was very clean. I recall see almost no garbage on the route. Good job everyone. However we did get a leaper cam stuck (go figure). I hate leaving anything on a wall accept by blood and sweat.
Take only memories leave only blood and sweat.
However, water can be a lifesaver. We left a gallon as James said on the top of WC which was almost immediately appreciated by a couple bivying nearby. We were happy to help out. The water stash should never be bigger than necessary to provide aid (i.e. get down) and food should be left only in very rare occasions.
I can attest that if you run out on a wall it doesn’t matter that the stash may be a little moldy. If you are on top you probably won’t get the runs until you are back on the ground.
Karl it was good to met you. I was one of the guys on the approach taking or second break after hiking only .10 of a mile. It is even greater to hear your partner has been fully indoctrinated.
Edit-mike. = bingo
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
Mick - have you been drinking moldy water?
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
holy repeat sentence batman...
if I topped out on something and there was stash water, i would be eternaly grateful...
ok eternity is a long time, let's just say til I died.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 01:16am PT
|
"Karl it was good to met you"
It's getting pretty dang fun in Yosemite these days as so many of us know each other from Supertopo, it's like meeting old friends that you never met out at the crags. We met a bunch of Supertopo misfits (a good thing) up there.
as for wall water, my point about using it and then removing the bottle is only a tit for tat ethics rant to keep folks honest. The real heroes are the ones who take out as much as they can handle or make special clean up trips on rest days. Brutus of Wyde comes to mind.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
What about water ethics while on the wall?
share? or separate to the end?
water hogs speak up!
water savers post!
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
if you can't "share water" on a wall you need to solo.
camaradrie is; you're in it together.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
Did SF Washington's Column was back in 1976, it was 105 degrees in the Central Valley. Don't know what it was in Yosemite, but it was damn hot. The updrafts were so strong that if you threw your rope out from the wall, it fell up, not down. You Wall Rats can guess the rest of this post.
We had planned on 1.5 gallons per man per day (memory not entirely clear on this detail), with two days for the climb. We drank a bit on hike up to the base, and camped at the base, drank a bit more, because it was hot. We ran out at the end of the first actual day on the climb, did the second one dry. We both were seeing things; it was the longest, most drawn-out, most painful experience of my life. I am sure you all have had a similar tale, based on y'all who carry extra.
We hiked down, got very wet, then hiked up with extra water to retrieve our gear, as we knew the sad sacks finishing the route behind us were likely to be thirsty. They were mighty glad to see us with extra water.
So I think leaving water is OK, but it should be full bottles, not drunk out of. Dating it seems to be a good idea. Partially consumed water bottles will always have oral flora contamination, and in the heat, the bugs should breed like crazy. Cashed food? I doubt it. It is much easier to calculate and ration food.
My two cents, you can get change.
(Was up to the Valley over Memorial Day, talked to the Mtn School, hear Ken Yager is busy with the Museum, is not teaching. Ken, how about an update?)
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
Thanks for posting this up Karl.
What would seem to be obvious is obviously knott.
I get sad when I see climber's trash. There just shouldn't be any.
One rainy day, I took a walk past the base of El Cap over to
Ribbon Falls. Things had been buried in that forest for a long
time; old water bottles and whatnot from decades past. I could
understand how years ago there were few folks about, so throwing
off a bottle to rot in the forest probably didn't seem like a big deal.
Bring back more than you go out with, if you can.
|
|
Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
|
|
Ouch
What do you think about having water and food to be served on every wall?
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
Cleaned about 200 dollars worth of lockers, biners and shoes off of Sickle also..
Hey Riley those were mine. I cached 'em in '97.
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
I would think a bottle of water would be safe indefinitely. It might not be safe the next day if somebody with "flora" drank from it. But leave another week or two, and there won't be any live flora in it.
No nutrients for flora, UV. Killer combo. Good water.
|
|
james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
|
|
After suffering 24+ hrs without water on the Nez we found an old soda bottle that had the distinct flavor of Murphy's Soap in it. Is it common to put a bit of soap or bleach to keep the micro critters out?
Sickle ledge seems to be a the place for booty scores. Found one #3 camelot in October with initials on it.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
My practise is to thoroughly wash bottles then rinse with a little mouthwash and leave some in when I fill the bottle. The water tastes good for a long time and the trace of alcohol helps kill bugs over the long haul.
This has served me well for decades.
|
|
adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
|
|
Being the realistic guy that I am... I figure people are going to leave water on the route no matter what and in any sort of quantity. People aren't going to Date their water either for the most part so I figure the best option is to just try to carry out more than you carried in and keep the net amount of water jugs on the wall on the decline each summer.
As for old water, I'm not sure about you guys but I treated anything we ran into on the wall. I'm sure we could have gotten away without treating some of it but no need to take the chance.
I sure was happy to see some empty water at Dolt last year and again at Camp VI. With Valley temps in the low 100's our 3 liters a piece didn't last as long as we wanted :) Nothing left on the top though, it was a thirsty night for sure.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
I'd probably still be on top of Half Dome (if my withered husk hadn't blown away) were it not for the water cache on top. It's a welcome gift.
Seems like water from the spring gets manky, while tap water does fine. A drop of iodine or bleach in a bottle of leaver water might be a good thing to try and do.
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
I've been saved by booty water on 2 occassions ..
Once at the top of zodiac i bootied 2 gallons which saved me since i topped out with less than 1 quart left, and it was frigging hot.
Another at the top of wet denim day dream .. when we topped out at 15 hours on the route with zero water left.. (we bootied 2 quarts at the summit!) ..
.. booty water is pretty cool when you need it..
.. i've lef behind many gallons when i top out with lots of water left ..
.. i've also left about 2 gallons at island in the sky .. where someone else had also left some booty food .. (unlabeled cans of food-- pretty cool .. what will you get? )
.. i think as long as its slightly hidden its alright ..
of course .. always carry your empties down!>
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
GREAT idea, Ron! I was just going to post about actually cleaning the bottles, thoroughly, before filling them and they should last years. I actually use a tiny bit of bleach in the water I use to clean the bottles and let them soak in it for a while. Rinse them well.
Your idea of using mouthwash and leaving a little in the bottles is genius.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
Only leave clear water. Yellow water isn't cool.
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
About the useful life of water in a bottle. I have done a number of desert hikes using cached water. The usual drill was to cache water the weekend before, or at most two weekends before, do the hike, then go back later to pick up anything we left. We sometimes overestimated what we needed, and left the bottles at a cache. Sometimes we went back the next weekend, sometimes it took a year to get back to a cache.
In my experience, an unopened bottle of water is good indefinitely if protected from light. Store-bought bottles unopened until we needed them lasted the longest. Sunlight speeds up the growth of algae, so we adopted the practice of caching the bottles in double black trash bags under rock overhangs, or buried shallow.
But an opened bottle is good for only about two weeks. Reused bottles (Nalgene, etc., and reused plastic gallon containers) were usually OK until needed, but occasionally sprouted algae before we got to use them. Once you drink out of a bottle, the water is contaminated and will start to grow stuff in a matter of days.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 01:29pm PT
|
John and others bring up a good point. Drinking out of the bottle. Let's make a point with Wall water of pouring what you need into your own bottle if you're not going to finish it, or pouring it into your mouth without touching it.
PS, the gallon bottle on dinner ledge right now is not piss. It's half Gatorade and Half water, left last weekend
Peace
Karl
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
"PS, the gallon bottle on dinner ledge right now is not piss. It's half Gatorade and Half water, left last weekend"
Or so you say, Karl! ;) I'd have to be DAMN thirsty to drink a bottle full of unknown yellow liquid! heh!
|
|
Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
|
|
just scratch and sniff (tm) and you'll know which yellow liquid it is...
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
When "drinking out of a bottle", I actually pour the water from the bottle into my mouth - I don't touch it with my lips. So no contamination.
|
|
billygoat
climber
3hrs to El Cap Meadow, 1.25hrs Pinns, 42min Castle
|
|
When we did Rainbow Wall a few years ago, we hiked in sans water because it was early spring and we had hopes the creek would still be running (even the ranger said it might). Well, the trickle was pretty pathetic. I left my partner at the base of the slabs to start filling up as I hiked the haul bag up. When I got to the base, I found twice as much water as we needed in sealed bottles directly under the first pitch. What a blessing, much better than having to drink brown water.
I'm all for leaving full, unopened bottles behind. Did so after Zodiac, and I'm sure someone was grateful. I hope they had the decency to pack out the empties.
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
Cached water is aid ;-)
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
In the high traffic areas of Yosemite, I think booty water can be a very good thing. It doesn't last that long, and it seems people generally pick up junk in exchange for what they've been giving.
Walls are a rare occasion when I prefer store bought water b/c I know it won't go bad for a long time if I do cache it. It's such a special treat to crack open sealed booty water when you're going leathery!
Generally, we take every empty that we find...and the occasional rancid pee bottle too.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
I've never been on an El Cap wall where I didn't find and haul out other people's trash. Since I do obscure routes, this typically happens at the odd pitch that is shared with a trade route. For example, from the ground all the way to Chickenhead ledge on the Mushroom was pristine. The last three pitches are shared by the Shield, and right off Chickenhead there were eight or ten empty bottles shoved behind a big flake.
Even worse, there were no fixed booty cams to pay for removing the garbage. All I got was an off-route angle, a pretty big one.
I would like to see a water fountain installed on every pitch of every bigwall..
A sandwich stand would be nice also..
A couple of years ago, I was seriously thinking of jugging Fake Blast to Heart, and setting up a lemonade stand. I figured everybody would buy, even if I had to trust them to pay me later in Camp 4. Plus the photos would have been hilarious.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
I've thought of setting up on top of Half Dome.... Water and Beer. A buck a squirt! hahaha It's amazing how many people I've seen up there who thought they would do the entire hike with a nalgene or even NO water. People who are in sad shape to begin with!
|
|
Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
|
|
wasn't there a story about someone setting up a concession, beer and soda at the top of the mist trail a few years back in one of the rags?
I think fiction and way funny if I recall correctly. Largo or Fish maybe?
David Pagel?
Historians?
|
|
10b4me
Trad climber
Hell A
|
|
folks, keep in mind the Yosemite cleanup. I believe it's the first weekend of October.
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
godamm ..
.. my dream is of setting up a pizza delivery service to el capitan ..
.. i'd go in as partners on the lemonade stand idea though ..
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
John Vawter,
to be sure, algae are photosynthetic, but I am having a hard time figuring out what the source of the algae are in your water bottles. If they are not in the water to begin with, it seems unlikely that they just get there from your lips.
So, are you filling your bottles from an algae source? If there is water on the climb, is there any need to leave water behind?
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
Unknown, but probably extraneous since chlorinated tap water is unlikely to be the source. That assumes that what we saw growing was algae and not some other contaminant.
But in the Valley climbers often fill bottles at the Spring. Obviously that has algae in it.
P.S. Good point TIG. Algae and other living stuff is an unlikely contaminant in tap water. So I should only say that factory sealed bottles have less chance of contamination (from any source) than bottles you re-use. The backwash from mouth to bottle contact is the real problem with leaving water behind. So best to leave unopened bottles as Karl suggests, or like Clint, pour the water into a container before drinking.
|
|
salad
climber
San Diego
|
|
I had a suffer-fest on Lurking Fear a few summers ago in a July heat wave. I cramped and puked from day one.
Anyway, I was at the point on the descent were a honestly didn't think I could keep going for much longer. Out of water and miserable. Found a coupla liters at the top of Zod, we each took a liter. It was enough to do the trick, but barely.
We also drank some cached water on Thanksgiving the day before that was pretty rank, but had no ill effects.
|
|
clockclimb
Trad climber
Orem, Utah
|
|
|
May 13, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
|
I treat water with clorox. I drop per 2 liter bottle. I have never had a problem drinking cached water no matter how many years old it was or how green or cloudy it looked.
You can leave clear water in clear plastic bottles out in the midday summer sun for a few hours and it is good to go. The U.V. kills everything dangerous to you. This method is promoted heavily in third world countries by health organizations - no supplies needed other than the reusable bottles.
|
|
cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
|
|
|
May 15, 2014 - 12:54am PT
|
I may get my first visit to the valley this fall.We are talking about south face as the primer to aid, i would be very disappointed to find food and water on the route.
i think it has to do with more laziness than helping fellow climbers. Its only like a 1000 ft??? I would like to feel like we are pioneering explorers....50 years late of course. I like the leave no trace ethic. So many people enjoying the outdoors now, best to leave it clean and as wild as possible
|
|
deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
|
|
|
May 15, 2014 - 04:33am PT
|
Trash is trash. Take everything off. Leave only slings if you bail.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 52 of total 52 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
5/1992 - cached 3 liters of water in standard 2 liter soda bottles at a remote ledge, under some rocks
Let us know!