Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 37 of total 37 in this topic |
crankenstein
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - May 9, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
|
Though primarily a lurker, I consider this group of SuperTopians to be a great wealth of information to whom I have a great respect. With that said, are there any of you long time climbers out there that have had ankle fusions, rebuilt ankles or total ankle replacement?
I'm facing some tough decisions regarding a decaying arthritic ankle resulting from an injury 25+ years ago. Climbing has been a big part of my life for those 25 years and I would like to hear some stories about how these types of surgeries affect other peoples climbing.
Anyone?
Sincerely,
Scott Hudson
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
Worst feet/ankles I've ever seen... Scott Cosgrove. His look like something filched off a mummy.... but he can walk. Fused, fukked, broken..... probably all of the above. You could try to contact him. He goes by the tricky moniker on here as "Coz".
|
|
Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
|
|
Hi. Hope this is encouragement of a kind.
About seven years ago I was rappelling off an ice climb when a crampon point got lodged in a hidden crack. Before I have chance to release it my body weight snapped the ankle. Must have been torqued at an angle. Muliple breaks all around the ankle joint including the joint itself. Long story short the surgeon warned me that he may not be able to fix it and would have to remove the foot/ankle. Anyway eight screws and two plates later, they are still there, it has not restricted either rock or ice climbing even thought its about 90% of original mobility.
I was told I would never run again, never mind climb again.
I pushed the limits in recovery until my body said no, but it worked for me. I was running, albeit short distances, like 200m to begin with, in five months and climbing 5.6 in 8 months. Back on ice that Winter climbing 4/5's consistantly.
May be I'm heading for problems in later life, hey I'm there already! But I tell you it was worth all the pain just to get back on the rock.
Best of luck with your decision.
Howie.
|
|
spyork
Social climber
Land of Green Stretchy People
|
|
I shattered my ankle 26 or 27 years ago. Bicycle accident.
I broke tibia, fibula, and the socket was shattered and pushed up into the tendons residing above the socket.
The foot was pointed 180 backwards. Some coed walked up and blew chow. I knew I was ugly but geez!
It hurts everyday. Some more some less. I have reduced range of motion. Sometimes my right foot can't get flat on slab friction.
I sprained it again last year in a dumbass leader fall. My first thought was that I finshed the job, but it came back mostly fine.
The good part is I got a gnarly scar!
I assume it will get blown out one of these days. My theory is to use all my parts as long as I can, then they can put me out in the snow.
So do whatever you can to keep mobility...
my two cents.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
Once when playing high school football, I broke bones in both ankles. They taped me up at halftime and I finished the game. This caused a large chunk of bone to migrate back to just above my heelbone. Forty years ago, a doctor told me my ankles were full of arthritis and I was in for trouble. Now, my ankles are about the only things I have that don't give me problems. Them suckers are amazing contraptions.
|
|
jeff benowitz
climber
|
|
http://www.limblengthening.com/
this guy-dr. rozbruch took me from being a total cripple to being a part cripple. I've had five operations in the last four years, but the only surgery that helped was rozbruch's. that said the pain is constant, the range of motion on my ankle is near nil. I can run, but only if being chased by a bear or late for a bus or a combination of the two. synethic ankles are supposed to wear out and so are ankle transplants. all my docs, including the lame one were way agaisnt fusion. with all the pain and discomfort I'm in now, fusion must be real bad is all i can gather. That all said, a year after my last rozbruch surgery headed into the alaska range for 20 days of steep mixed climbing.
not sure if any of that helps.
|
|
James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
|
|
A couple years ago I fell off a high ball boulder problem and shattered my left ankle and now it's fused into a single chunk of metal. When I hike more than ten miles it starts to swell and hurt and it turns to watermelon size when it rains. The lateral movement in it is non-existent but I can still climb well on it.
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
Crankstein, what joint(s) are you talking about? Your old injury, what was it and what joints are involved? This could have a lot to do with your ultimate decision and even how you might manage it today or in the immediate future. Surgery to the ankle or even injury can have some big consequences and there are so many articulations in the ankle, it usually isn't the same after. Not to say surgery can't correct or help your situation, but in my experiences whether minor or major some range and stability are lost. What are your complaints? Pain constantly, sharp, ache, weight bearing, with range, swelling??? Think seriously before surgery and ask about afterwards(rehab, time off)and outcomes. Good luck, blew one of mine up YEARS ago, no surgery, lotta patients, and it is pretty good to go. Aches when weather fronts pass through.
Peace
|
|
Broken
climber
Texas
|
|
I broke both of my legs pretty badly a little over two years ago. Both tibs, both fibs, left ankle shattered, right calcaneus shattered. MRSA infection in both sides resulting in muscle graft (from abdomen to heel) and skin graft (from thigh to heel). Ilizarov device on my left leg for about a year (the same device they use for limb lengthening). Slow to heal tibia lead to bone graft taken from hip and put into tibia.
Compartment syndrome, nerve damage, and who knows what else has caused my toes to be stiff/painful/weak, etc. I still can't wear a climbing shoe. (on that note, if anyone has advice for me on this front, I'd be happy to hear it)
My left ankle flexibility is extremely poor. Dorsi-flexion is basically zero (15-20 degrees is normal). This is a problem walking up hill or on low angle terrain.
I climb rock in my ice boots. 5.10 edging can sometimes be fine... and 5.7 slabs can sometimes be impossible. Climbed some ice this winter and felt pretty solid. Soloed Chouinard's in the 'Daks, the first climb I ever lead when I started. Sometimes I feel limited because I can't really drop my left heel to surmount bulges, etc...
I'm hoping that I can someday get back to wearing rock shoes and am in the processing of trying to figure out the right shoe (all my old shoes are WAY too small now, especially on the right side). I've got a pair of different-sized JB's on the way.
I got into cycling last summer, as I seem to be able to do it with little restriction (except sore ankles afterward). Endurance open-water swimming as well. I can't run, can't hike long distance, and my vertical leap is about 1".
I miss climbing, the way it used to be for me.
To the original poster-
Ankle replacement has advanced in recent years, though shelf life on a lot of them is pretty short (5-7 years). Fusion is actually not as bad an option as a lot of people make it out to be. I was originally fearful of it, though now I wish I had just had it done. It is a relatively simple surgery with a long history - thus, the results of it are more reliable. Recovery time on it is relatively short. However, it depends on the level of function you're hoping for and whether you're willing to gamble on potentially having more surgeries in the future (as could be the case with an ankle replacement/rebuilt).
My ankle was pretty much "rebuilt." Afterward, though, the joint fused itself naturally - cartilage did not come back and the bone basically filled in the gap as part of the healing process. Cartilage regeneration is something that the medical world is working on. For example, Bionicare is being used on arthritic knees now to aid in the regeneration of musculoskeletal soft tissues. I'm not sure if it has been used on ankles yet, but something like that would be an option to consider - I usually think it is best to explore all non-surgical paths before going under the knife (and I speak as the son of an orthopedic surgeon... whose old man was an orthopod as well)
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
I replaced my ankle. I don't mean to be flip but sometimes amputation may be the choice which results in the least pain and the most mobility. Check out the photos.
George Meyers, former owner of Chockstone Press (the guide book guy) just had his foot amputated because of the pain and immobility of an old ankle injury. He's paifree now for the first time in 20 years.
A prosthetic foot is a pain in the ass but it is relatively confortable and allows me to do whatever I want. Check out the array of different climbing feet I'm made:
Email me if you want any more info.
Mal
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Wow man, awesome Mal
Good idea, I'm gonna power up my saws-all and cut my feet off.
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
That second from the right looks like it might be a good wall hammer head!! Where there's a will, there's a way, good post Mal
Peace
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
George had his foot cut off??? Holy Cow!
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Yeah he did. When I heard I called him up to offer support or whatever and he was totally psyched! Seems weird, but it was the same for me. I couldn't wait to get my foot cut off. Bad foot.
Jeff B, I wore an Ilizarov for 9 months on my left leg. Swallow hard and sack up. The next picture is just a few days after my amputation and Ilizarov installation:
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
You guys have sold me on it...... I'm cutting my feet off tonight! Thanks for the input! Might do that pesky "sushi induced" wrist that was giving me problems at the Fest while I have the saw out.... Pics to follow......
|
|
jeff benowitz
climber
|
|
Mal,
The cage-I hate the cage-they told me it wouldn't hurt....that it would just cause discomfort. on the other hand marinol made the months go by in a blur...In the end I removed part of the cage with a pair of wire clippers-long story.
I've considered fusion and amputation. Here is the thing though-With my jacked ankle I'm currently still pulling off twenty-mile ski approaches and 4,000 foot alaskan alpine days-though at 30 below the thing aches in unbelievable ways. There is also high degrees of pain and slowness and I can't string a bunch of long days together. Mal have you done any alpine expedtionary climbing since your injury? I know I can slog up everest or denali without the foot, but things like the moonflower seem like they'd be out of the picture sans foot.
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Jeff,
Unfortunately, what's left of my left foot is pretty crappy. I frostbit it throrughly and it hasn't recovered much. It always aches, has crappy circulation and is arthritic as hell. For now, it's better than cutting it off but someday...
The Ilizarov was pretty painless for me until I banged it on something. I loved scaring scaring little kids in the grocery store with the damn thing. It wroked though; grew back 1 1/2" of leg bone.
Mal
|
|
jeff benowitz
climber
|
|
I climbed and ski'd with the cage on and was constanly ripping the flesh around the spikes. Fluid would shoot out when I was cross-country skiing. amazingly living without running water I didn't get a single infection. Who put the cage on you?
Only had it on for four months and it worked for me too, 9 months-Wow!!!.
Sad thing for me is if I had seen a good doc soon after the orginal injury my ankle would be fine. The cage was to redux the mess up the fairbanks surgeon threw down on me. good Health care is worth any price.
My circulation is better in my messed up foot than the other which has an old frost bite injury. Hopefully the thrashed ankle won't degrade-i'm a year out from the cage, but if it does I'll be in touch. Jim and Charlie speak highly of ya, but I don't think we have ever met. That said, feel free to consider yourself an esteemed member of the crawl for dimes climbing club. Charlie might lose his membership if his shoulder heals up some more....
|
|
the museum
Trad climber
Rapid City, SD
|
|
Mine was only broken- no arthritis. I lucked out too since it never got any worse. For sure have a reputable doc do the work! Too bad your's fuzed up.
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Jeff,
It was a doc named Mark Mcferran in Ft. Collins. He's what they call a salvage doc; he repairs what others don't want to touch for what ever reason. Before the amputation/Ilizarov he removed the useless intermedulary rod and replaced it with a plate w/ 7 screws. Dmn thing broke after 14 weeks when I jumped off the tailgate with a kayak on my shoulder. He decided that if he was going to get me to heal he'd need to cripple me good. Prior pic shows his work.
Give Charlie a kick in the ass for me.
Mal
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Mal
You're one hell of a guy ..... cheers to you.
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Fine words coming from you. Thanks Werner.
|
|
crankenstein
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2007 - 12:00am PT
|
Thanks so much for all the replies, guys. I knew I wasn't the only one to suffer this malady (ever noticed the pun resembles Mal Daly?) A little more history on my ankle; I tore all the soft tissues up doing gymnastics, had surgery to remove bone spurs a year later, and was able to run and climb comfortably for at least the first 12 to 15 years afterward. About 10 years ago it caused me to give up running but I have climbed comfortably since. It's the walk up the hill that hurts. My ankle doesn't want to flex very well. Eight years ago I went to 3 different ortho docs and all of them looked at my XRays and said the only option was fuse it or replace it, and that it was too calcified to try to salvage it. My most recent doctor, a doctor Ocel in Louisville, Co immediately said that we need to get MRI and CT scans to see if my talus bone is still alive and if it is we might be able to realign, reshape and rebuild the joint. He also told me to research everything I can on total ankle replacement. Hence my question to this group.
It's possible that I will be given several options and opt to do nothing but suffer the pain and stay mobile until whatever time that I can no longer do that. The fact that I have young kids that are starting to outwalk me and the fact that I currently have good insurance is making me revisit the whole maybe-I-can-get-it-fixed thing.
Again, thanks for all your input as it helps for me to know how other people, especially climbers, have dealt with similar circumstances.
And by-the-way, Malcolm, I really appreciate your input and just knowing your situation helps when I think of all the different outcomes that may be in my future.
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 12:11am PT
|
Hey crank'
If your insurance will allow you to go to the Orthopedic Center of the Rockies (the "bone palace") in Ft. Collins, check them out. They've got great surgeons who actually talk to each other and lots of foot and ankle specialists. They're not afraid to say what's up and some of the orthopods are actually climbers. I can make a personal reference if you want. Send me an email at mal.daly @ mac.com.
Mal
|
|
devaki
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
May 10, 2007 - 01:02am PT
|
im fascinated by the interchangable feet! hows the fish foot? see ya in a week, mal--
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 11, 2007 - 06:00pm PT
|
Hi Scott. I got in touch with a cousin in Leeds about this. Both he and his wife are PhDs, and work for a company that's one of the few in the world that designs artifical hips. (Oddly, his brother, in Calgary, is an orthopaedic surgeon, and replaces lots of hips.)
Anyway, his comments, slightly edited:
"There are many research papers on the web (Clinical Orthopaedics and related research, among others, you may need to go to a university library to get copies). You will probably not be able to make sense of them unless you are familiar with the area. Look for a recent review paper on ankle arthroplasty, or total ankle replacement. Standard company information , or general web sources I would stay well clear of. Search under "Web of Science", or "Science Direct" , or "Medline" , all are web search engines."
"Traditionally ankle replacements have not been very successful, less so than the alternative, fusing, which is a relatively successful proceedure. If you fuse the ankle (metal rod), the articulation generally takes place somewhere else in the foot, and you can still walk almost normally. Eventually (after several years) the new location of articulation will also suffer from arthritis, if indeed that was the original cause. For elderly patients fusing is definitely the most successful procedure. If you are younger, ankle replacement may be an alternative as there are many new designs on the market that may be improved compared to the older designs. There is no real long-term results on these yet, so it may be best to wait for 10 years to see how these are performing and then make a decision."
Not a great deal of help - it sounds like the aging baby boomers will drive improvement in ankle replacements, but it may take time. It also depends very much on circumstances, as with most medical situations, so seeing someone who is skilled and knowledgeable may be your best strategy.
|
|
AP
Trad climber
Calgary
|
|
|
May 11, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
|
Speaking of all this amputee stuff does Hugh Herr still climb? I know he designs prosthetics for active people.
I heard when he was climbing hard in the 80's he had a real hard time on the approach hikes, especially on talus.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 11, 2007 - 06:17pm PT
|
Not sure about Hugh Herr, but Warren MacDonald still climbs. http://www.warren-macdonald.com/
Edit: Concur with Tom's comment below. I help with the Climbers Access Society of B.C., the local equivalent of the Access Fund, and also do some work with the disabled. It's important to remember how fortunate we mostly are, as climbers and westerners, and that access means different things to different people.
|
|
LongAgo
Trad climber
|
|
|
May 11, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
|
A passing observation:
High praise is due people who love the rocks and hills, are injured, make tough choices for/against operations, then come back to the outdoors again at whatever level. We may heap praise on the latest gymnastic climbing feats and feature them in magazines, journals, web sites, blogs and the like, but climbers enduring deeper, tougher challenges to selves, families and friends, as those featured here, sometime slip by unsung. There undoubtedly are very anguished and deeply human stories behind these pictures, matter of fact reports and cheery tones. I would like to say bravo to the true brave.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
|
|
ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
|
|
|
May 11, 2007 - 07:17pm PT
|
And Bravo to you Tom for all the inspiration and motivation you have provided many of us! Oh so long ago.
Bravisimo!
Peace
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
May 11, 2007 - 10:14pm PT
|
I busted my ankle a few years ago, and had the screws and plates put in. At the time it seemed pretty bad, but my ankle is good enough now for what I need it to do. It doesn't fully flex like it used to, but it doesn't hurt, and I can run, climb, cave and carry pigs.
Man, can't believe how bad some of you other ankle guys have had it!
|
|
Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
|
|
|
May 12, 2007 - 01:17am PT
|
i'm missing all five toes on my left foot. A year after that epic I shattered my calcaneus and tibial plateau on same foot.
Pain is a close companion.
Yesterday I wanked on a Jay Smith 5.11, with some serious sections.
Inshallah
|
|
axlgrease
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
|
|
|
May 15, 2007 - 05:20am PT
|
I haven't looked at the forums in a few days, and just saw this thread - interesting as I broke an ankle two years ago.
For those interested - I took a 10-footer on lead, and caught my heel on a slight protrusion, resulting in communinuted bi-malleolar and intra-articular pylon fractures. In layman's terms - I broke both ankle bones and impacted the end of my tibia, creating lots of little and medium-sized pieces. The tibia fracture also went through the joint surface. I've had three surgeries, with a total of 18 screws and two plates. (Fortunately, I didn't break anything south of the leg bones.)
A general orthopedist did the first (emergency) surgery, then I found an ankle specialist for the others. At my first consultation with the specialist, he said I probably wouldn't climb again. (I've been climbing for 20 years - that was a depressing day...) Both surgeons told me that there was a 50% chance of developing osteo-arthritis in the first 3-6 months after the injury, and my actions during rehab wouldn't make any difference in this statistic - it would either happen or it wouldn't. If it did, the joint would have to be fused or replaced. I got lucky, and only developed a tiny pocket of arthritis that hasn't grown.
Now, two years later, I'm climbing again, and doing everything I did before - though falls on lead still spook me. The ankle is definitely not 100% - range of motion is somewhat limited, and I have intermittent mild pain. My doctors told me the ankle will be the first thing to deteriorate, so sometime in the future (hopefully another 20 years?) I'll be facing the same issues as you, Crankenstein.
I'm very happy with my recovery and prospects. I credit the success to:
 A bit of luck.
Finding a great ankle specialist.
Great physical therapists - one of whom insisted that gym climbing was the best rehab I could do and the other that hiking in Yosemite a month after my last surgery was better that coming into the PT office.
A positive and motivated attitude toward my rehabilitation.
This last point deserves special mention. During my time in PT, I was able to observe quite a number of different patients around me. The ones who had a positive attitude inevitably improved. Those that didn't - well... didn't, even when they had less serious conditions. It really reinforced in me a belief in positive thinking - it's not that it's mystical magic - it just makes it a lot easier to do the things that have to be done to get better.
Finally, hearing about other recovery stories has been great. To the other posters on this thread, your stories are truly inspirational. Thanks.
Ax
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
May 15, 2007 - 10:09am PT
|
Climbers can be impressively determined about their game.
Show of hands -- who sets off metal detectors?
|
|
Florrie
climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2018 - 01:55pm PT
|
Hi Crankenstein, saw your post from 2007. I currently have a bum ankle and am looking at ankle replacement. I am curious as to what you did in the end and if you had a replacement were you able to climb again afterwards?
|
|
skywalker1
Trad climber
co
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2018 - 03:15pm PT
|
Florrie not sure your issue and I'm not a Dr. I was having ankle issues for a few years. I've broken it, sprained it many times as a youth. All from big falls. Finally it just stopped working well. I called it my dumb ankle as if it was not part of me. I quit climbing. I sought out every possible solution. After exhausting all treatments I had it "fixed" with a surgical procedure. The surgeon basically could dislocate it at will.
Not sure what it is technically called but he basically pulled my ligaments tight and stuck a plastic brace in it. Recovery has been 10 months now. Its stiff or rather tight. I have less mobility with it but I can run now and I'm paragliding almost daily and I'm not the best at landing :-), but the ankle feels strong.
If I could do it over again...I would. Can I climb? Yes just not that yoga flexy stuff with that ankle but can compensate. I'm told that it just takes time and its way better than it was. I should probably stretch it more but we all can stretch more.
Again I don't know your issue, just offering my experience. If you have further questions I'll try to answer.
Good Luck!
S....
|
|
mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
Culver City, CA
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2018 - 05:09pm PT
|
Funny to see this thread pop back up. In 2014 I went to see Dr. Rozbruch in NYC b/c of the recommendation here and reviews online of his stem cell therapy to regenerate new cartilage in my ankle. Found mild relief but personally didn't find it worth the time/pain/expense. Searched online looking for information on amputation and came across a device called the "Exosym". Lots of info online about it (unless you are military) it can only be hand-crafted in Gig Harbor, Washington. Am I pain free with it? No. However, I can get out and hike and run with it.
I've also been reading about a Dr. at Duke that is 3-D printing new Talus bones and doing replacements for people with AVN.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 37 of total 37 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!