Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 48 of total 48 in this topic |
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 28, 2007 - 08:14pm PT
|
Not just any hammer and rope, but the ones that belonged to John Salathe. Feast your eyes on these babies!
Ken
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2007 - 11:32pm PT
|
Ken, do you think he made the hammer from scratch?
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 12:20am PT
|
My guess is as good as yours, but the handle looks standard for a ballpeen hammer, which he would have commonly used in his work. The grooves look handmade and I have never seen them on a ballpeen hammer before (and I have quite a few in my collection).
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 12:34am PT
|
I was kinda thinking it was a stock hammer he modified, the grooves in the handle and the pick end of the head look unique.
|
|
Cosmin
Big Wall climber
Europe/China
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 04:35am PT
|
What's the rating for that rope? is it dry or s-dry?
:D
Nice collection items! a visit at some crags in Czech republic or Romania will show you both some techniques and some pins to go along :o)
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 04:07pm PT
|
Thanks for posting the relics Ken. Any chance of some original Salathe Arrow shots? You would swear that coiled rope was lifted right off of Ax Nelson's shoulders in the classic Lost Arrow FA photo! Cool stuff.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 05:11pm PT
|
Here you go Steve,
I have some more stuff, if you want.
Ken
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 06:50pm PT
|
Now I have a stupid question to ask. What is a ball peen hammer used for? The convex striking face and the more acute peen would be useful for descaling water boilers. Is that what they were for? Setting rivets? Darn things are everywhere you go but what do you do with them?
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
|
That's a cool coil on that rope. Original from John?
|
|
scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 06:58pm PT
|
jstan, I'm tempted to say setting rivets is their most noble
use. They can do a lot more, of course, but peening things is
where they really get off.
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
|
I'm having a De"ja'vu....
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 09:57pm PT
|
I bet you are John. It was good to meet you.
A picture from 1947.
And the equipment he used.
Ken
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 10:02pm PT
|
wow Ken - really neat.
Ok, anyone know what the
diamond P on Salathe's gear stood for?
(Ken you're excluded for obvious reasons.)
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 10:10pm PT
|
I think it's Proud.
Ken
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 10:28pm PT
|
so sorry Ken but, that is incorrect :)
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 10:30pm PT
|
Thanks for the shots Ken.
Ray, that would be Peninsula Iron Works.
Sheridan Anderson, as the story goes, drew the logo with a C instead of a P on Yvon's door. And it stuck.
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 10:31pm PT
|
Knew you'd get it Steve!
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 10:41pm PT
|
The Diamond is actually a blacksmithing mark for a master blacksmith. My grandfather was a master blacksmith who worked out of Carmel. His mark was a diamond F, his first name was Francis. He knew Salathe and did some ski trips in the Sierras with him.
Ken
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
|
Ken, while you're being indulgent, any Chuck Wilts' knifeblades in your collection? I have a set of three very old forged blades that have a shape similar to the oldest Chouinard design.
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 11:18pm PT
|
That's interesting Ken. Say, do you know if John Salathe actually made those 'biners?
Also, I'd love to see more historical gear pics.
It's evident from the quality and quantity of the images that the potential for a really neat website seems to be there.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 11:44pm PT
|
Steve, I have only one Wilts knifeblade and it is pretty small. I would be interested to see what you have.
Ray, We are redoing our website and I have been adding content for the last month and a half. I will let you know when it is up.
Ken
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
|
Great Ken.
Also, Steve I want to admit I did not know the Sheridan Anderson part of the diamond C story, thanks for informing me - pretty cool.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2007 - 11:53pm PT
|
Ray, I do think that Salathe made the over size biners. Ames was the company that made climbing equipment for the military during World War II. I have at least one aluminum Ames biner and it is about the same size as the Bedayn biners.
Ken
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2007 - 11:57pm PT
|
Best of luck with all your archive/museum related efforts Ken. Great stuff.
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 12:45am PT
|
Hey Ken, thanks for the tour. The Higher Cathedral album compiled by Richard Leonard et al is an amazing historical document. The Salathe stuff was incredible to see and actually hold in my own hands.
The one story and artifact that really impressed me for it's provenance was the one bolt that Robbins placed on the Muir Wall route on the second ascent and the first solo of a El Cap route.
I'm not mentioning this to "put down ' Robbins at all, he was one of the most ethically pure climbers ever ,,it's just a great story,,eight days into the route, trying to place a rurp that keeps popping and finally in desperation placing a bolt( the only one he ever placed on an existing route).
And then the fact that whoever finally replaced it realized the significance of the piece and saved it for prosperity.
When I told my sister, a non climber,, this tale,and that I actually saw and held this bolt, she said it gave her goose bumps .
An outsider could see all your boxes of strange bits of Iron and steel, and odd bolt hangers, as just a bunch of junk. But a hundred years from now the stories and history behind them will make these already incredible items ,priceless .
Keep up the great work.
PS How did it go with Robin Hansen?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 12:46am PT
|
I have a Bedayn biner that was hanging on a single bolt station on Mother's Lament long ago.
Here are the KBs. Eyeshape much like an early Chouinard. Any similarity to yours, Ken?
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2007 - 08:56am PT
|
Steve,
Those are beautiful! The one I have is a little smaller than the smallest one you have and is a wafer type pin. It does not have the angled eye. It is currently mounted in a display. I will post a picture when I can.
Ken
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 10:11am PT
|
yeah, those are beauties!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 11:27am PT
|
I have a feeling that these might be early run Chouinards but one can always hope with no stamp. Of course, no stamp could also mean a second if the concept existed forty years ago. I'll have to ask Tom Frost next time that I see him. Have you ever seen another three hole bolt hanger like the Dolt one that I posted a while ago?
How much display space are you working with currently Ken? I will have to stop by this season and say hello. I might have a few goodies for you of my own.
Thanks again for posting this stuff
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
|
Hi Steve,
I didn't see the Dolt hanger you mentioned. Do you remember which thread it is posted on?
Those pitons are very unique looking. I have not seen a pin with those bevels on the blade.
NPS has given me permission to do two different displays this year by the Visitor Center. This fall I am going to put a Glen Denny photo exhibit next to the Indian Museum. I also have the O.K. to display artifacts and photos in the same area for the summer of 2008. DNC is also interested in having displays at various other areas around the Valley. All this stuff takes time and money. I have worked for free for the last fifteen years on this and spent over $35,000.00 of my own money.
I look forward to meeting you. We have met briefly a few times in the past though I doubt you would remember.
Ken
|
|
scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 12:07pm PT
|
I've seen some of Chuck Wilts' knifeblades. He went for really
tiny blades in some instances.
There was an article by him in the Sierra Club book [h]Belaying
The Leader[/h] which gave detailed instructions on their
construction. He recommended making vertical rather than
horizontal pitons (all in one plane). I suspect most of what he
made was vertical.
Anyhow, his really small ones had a blade about the size of the
RURP. The biggest difference is that his had a head big enough
for an eye that would take a carabiner.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
|
So, do Wilts KB's lack an offset eye configuration then? My recollection is otherwise. Any chance Janet Wilts is still a ranger in Yosemite? She was around twenty years ago and might have a few Blades laying around.
Bolts from the Wayback Machine and Welcome to Kevin Worral are two threads with photos of that three hole Dolt goodie.
Have you ever approached the Sierra Club about using the LeConte memorial building as a climbing museum at least in part? What better way to remember LeConte as a climber?
Any Charlie Porter hatchet head rurps in your holdings for show and tell?
|
|
Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 30, 2007 - 04:39pm PT
|
I was thinking about the knifeblade, wondering if it is (one of) the oldest technical climbing designs still made, one sought after and used in its (essentially) original configuration - in other words the most long lived (unchanged) design in the sport?
Just a thought.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2007 - 05:02pm PT
|
Ray,
Salathe's Arrow design hasn't changed much.
Ken
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Does this look like a match on the Wilts' KB on the bottom? Both pins have a Holubar stamp but the upper one is soft iron I believe. The reversing corners pitch on Astroman had one of these dainty ring piton as crucial pro when I did it long ago. Still there anyone?
I think the longevity of design award goes to the horizontal for sure. Pictured are a soft iron vertical and horizontal piton top and bottom with my oldest Chouinard Lost Arrow in the middle.
A selection of soft iron pitons. The plated ring angle still has an REI 65 cent price tag on it.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2007 - 10:53am PT
|
Steve,
I sent you an email about the Blades. The earliest Chouinard Arrows have just a diamond C stamp. I will post a picture of a Wilts Blade soon.
Ken
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Just a few more odds and ends from the past.
From the top down; an 1 1/2" angle showing the largest product stamp Chouinard equipment used, a vintage Clog angle, a very early Chouinard angle showing the smallest and most primtive diamond C (no USA below) and lastly an early 1 1/2" aluminum angle with no visable stamp (homemade?).
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Thanks for the update Walleye.
Charles Cole and I got pulled over by a Ranger one day. Charles was driving and asked what the stop was about and received a load of attitude from the abrupt officer. Having stonewalled to the point of real tension, he finally called in Charles' information. The woman on the other end of the radio calmly asked the ranger to repeat the information before adding with a slight giggle, "say hello for me will you?" The transition to Mr. Nice was so quick that I remained pissed off but we were off the hook. Thanks to Janet, the dispatcher that day!
Ken- Does the stamp on the old 1" angle resemble the blacksmith's found on the oldest Lost Arrows that you've seen?
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2007 - 07:32pm PT
|
Yes Steve that is the stamp that he used. He has the stamp special made and it is hammered into the piton before it is hardened and tempered. I bet that angle is one that he made.
Ken
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
Good story Steve; Janet is a cut up.
I met her when she sort of, maybe dated Bartlett.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
|
Steve, Here is a Chuck Wilts Knifeblade that he started making in 1950.
To show you how small it is, here is one with a Bedayn carabiner.
If you have seen the well known Tom Frost photo of Robbins sorting pins and drinking coffee prior to the second ascent of the Nose, You can see 5 or 6 Wilts Blades amongst the pitons.
Ken
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
I always wondered about those tiny verticals! I just assumed that they were soft iron wafers. Very cool item.
Can't remember how I came by the old angle. The base of the Captain has been very good to me! It likely came from there.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2007 - 12:53am PT
|
One interesting thing is that Wilts did not use a forge, which means he milled all of his pitons from stock.
Ken
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
It would be interesting to find out if the availability of different alloy sheet steels around 1950 was the main driver behind inventing the Wilts' KB. The vertical type design probably posed lots of eye clearance problems on granite leading to the offset eye KB by Chouinard not long after. Lots of work to grind the taper on those little blades.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 17, 2007 - 11:42am PT
|
Here is a photo of two KB's produced after the ones that I posted above.
You can easily see the roll forging marks becoming more refined as time advances. In addition, you can see evidence of the technical problems in producing the thin KB by forging alone. In order to maintain the thinner blade all the way to the eye contact point, it became necessary to begin roll forging the flat KB blank a little bit ahead. This unfortunately lead to a slight thinning of the eye itself (prior to the bending step) and eventually some grinding to achieve the desired blade thickness and taper without compromising strength. By 1968, "the blades are forged of aircraft quality alloy steel and have been masterfully ground by hand." Pictured also is a CMI blade which has been shaped and tapered exclusively by grinding.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
May 20, 2007 - 11:26pm PT
|
Here is some antique funk a little more on the wider side. A 31/2" and 4" Longware thin steel bong.
These early bongs are very much like the original stoveleg design used on the Nose. Later designs, like the early 21/2" Chouinard aluminum alloy bong shown, tended to be longer by an inch or so and shaped to facilitate endwise placement.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Another thing about these is that the eyes are on the opposite side of where they usually are for Bugaboos.
Is the eye shape a lot different from other ~1965 Bugaboos?
|
|
BooDawg
Social climber
Polynesian Paralysis
|
|
Steve, I'm wondering about the source of the story about Sheridan drawing the first "Diamond C." Did that come from Y.C. himself? It seems to me that Chouinard's logo was around before Sheridan appeared on the scene. That fits with the Diamond as a general label for master blacksmiths, but doesn't negate the story itself, especially if Sheridan knew that tradition. Just wondering...
Edit: Having re-read the Sheridan thread, I found that one source for the story was Galen Rowell's account in Mountain 25, and that he said that it took place in 1964 during the Chouinard's, Pratt's & Harding's Mt. Watkins climb. As a reference point, I have some Chouinard flame-cut bugaboos that were certainly made at the LATEST in 1963 and were produced several years earlier; these have the Diamond C stamped near the eye on the "inside" face of the blade. I have posted pix of those pins (Diamond C not visible) which I have on my desk now previously here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1104287/Help-with-vintage-pitons. Any way, it doesn't appear to me that Sheridan actually created the Diamond C logo.
When did Sheridan's first climbing cartoon appear? Going thru the Sheridan thread, I found that 1964 seemed to have the first appearance of a Sheridan cartoon.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 48 of total 48 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!