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tradman
Trad climber
australia
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 4, 2004 - 05:12am PT
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Excuse the weird question but here goes.....
I`m on a hanging belay, pitch 12 of big wall X and due to my high fiber diet my body clock is telling me it is time to answer the call of nature...........ie time to take a dump
So how is this done??? What equipment is best (ie PVC tube to cart it out etc...) How do I stay cliped in, what is the best method to avoid any unfortunate and messy accidents??
All hints and tips appreciated
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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First off a little creative thinking on your part should be able to resolve the majority of your questions, but one thing I found to be very convienent at times like that is to have a harness rig that has detachable legs loops, that way when you just have to go, you tie off to the swami by itself, drop trou and let it fly, so to speak.
When I was on Mescalito my partner had that exact issue, except he was on the lead. Turns out we had a bit too much coffee in the morning, compounded with him trying to be a bigwall hardman by not drinking very much water since we had left the ground. Consequently he became seriously dehydrated and one of the symptoms of that is getting the runs. I sent him up a quart and a half of water, and told him to drink it all. This was of course was after he took a dump in the middle of the rivet ladder pitches. Within 20 minutes he was good to to.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Well, the "let it fly" approach no longer flies, that is for sure. If you going up overnight, plan to bring something to carry your crap down in. If you are just going up a long Grade IV in a day, don't sh#t on the wall, very bad form. Force yourself to take care of buisness before you start and wait until you are finished.
For Bigwalls, where the wall sh#t is inevitable, first of all, don't try to hold it, get a regular cycle started going from the first day.
For disposal, I have been very happy with the Metolius "Waste Case." It is kind of expensive (a total rip off for what it is), but it works real nice. For years I wen't through the ritual of building a PVC "pipe bomb" before a wall, which was allways kinda fun, but sometimes a pain in the ass at the last minute, and they ended up costing me about $30 a pop.
A nich ledge (or portaledge) and releasable leg loops make the whole process much easier.
Bring some baby wipes, on your climb for comfort, and to sterilize your hands afterwards.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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A cheap rafting dry bag can work well too. Do a web search for big wall burrito. Brutus of Wyde has a good system.
Peace
Karl
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Lambone, I was only using the phrase "let if fly" to avoid a lengthy disertation on big wall toilet etiqutte. I know all to well can happen when an unthinking party does that. I was at the base of the Zodiac when someone in a party in the middle of the cirlce, let it go. we were at the base and the shite started falling all over the place. Luckily no one got hit, but man, that was just to scary..lol
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Demented
climber
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..it's called a butt plug
keeps everything inside nice and tidy until you are able to cut loose in a hygienically-approved manner
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Bishop is DEAD, long live JT
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For anything 4 days or less I just duct tape my pantlegs shut at the bottom. No worries.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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that's pretty damn funny right there...
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Bernie, the big Mexican at the mountain shop, sells ready-made bomber poop tubes for $25
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Bernie is known as "Mr. Friendly" among the climbers for his professional demeanour, pleasant customer-oriented service, and his smiling and friendly disposition.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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I agree with you on that, Pete. He's one of the kindest people that I know, and the man makes a quality poop tube.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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After one of our trips to Mt. Whitney I tracked down the company that manufactured the bags the Park Service was handing out in the then voluntary carry-it-out regime... Intelligent Products Incorporated... "Nature Calls"...
The URL: http://www.pickupmitts.com/rvnewnature.htm
While it probably doesn't quite standup like a poop-tube, it is a way to get the poop contained and the storage bags are more robust then a standard plastic bag. And international orange to boot... I bought a bunch of these to use on my Sierra trips so that I could feel less then guilty about crapping in the "wilderness". Also used in various other pseudo-remote areas...
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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I think that people are being too juvenile and dancing around the topic. Taking a dump on a climb is a reasonable and necessary task & it merits being done right, so the "potty age" jokes (while terribly funny) and avoiding talking straight are just a sign of our inhibitions. Just talk straight. Sh#t happens, and if it doesn't, the constipation is nature's payback for failing to follow the directions.
I have been taught one way by Ken Yager, would like to hear others. A plastic bag with handles, the kind you get at the grocery store, works great. First, never untie (I presume you know that, but it needs to be said in case a newbie is reading this) and both you and your partner need to be in a safe place/position. Second, standing on a ledge makes it easier, a portaledge is OK (don't miss), hanging belay stance is a drag. Pee first, so you don't have to try to poop but not pee at the same time. (I know, screamingly funny to read, not funny to experience.) Get out your plastic bag and get everything ready: butt wipes and baby wipes, and a place to set the bag until you can put it in the poop tube (again, obvious, but it is unethical and illegal to throw it off the wall). Be sure the wind cannot blow the vital supplies out of reach (ask me how I know). Lower the detachable leg loops (now is not the time to be sure that you bought the right belt or to practice), drop trou, grab the plastic bag handles, and aim. (Sounds easy, but I have to admit I missed once. Now you would think a guy could hit a bag with his butt at a distance of 2 inches, but ...) Wipe thoroughly so you don't itch until the after-climb shower, being very careful not to get sh#t on your hands (many expeditions have been ruined by illness caused by bad potty hygiene), then clean your hands well with the baby wipes. Someone posted that you should "sterilize" your hands with the baby wipes, but you cannot actually decontaminate your hands with the baby wipes. If you contaminate your hands with fecal organisms (sh#t bacteria, for you non-medical types. I am a hand surgeon. I don't claim to know it all, but I think my credential is revelant here, so I mention it only in passing), your hands are going to be contaminated for the rest of the climb, the best you can do is decrease the bacterial contamination with careful wiping with the baby wipes. Stow all the trash in the bag, place in poop tube. Breathe a sigh of relief.
The only limitation to this technique is that the poop tube has plastic bags in it, one being biodegradable and suitable to the toilet, the other being non-biodegradable and not suitable for the septic system.
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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This last May we tried Karl Baba's suggestion of using a dry bag instead of a PVC tube. The dry bag worked great for my partner. The dry bag did not leak or emit any noxious fumes. The system is considerably lighter and less bucky than the PVC bomb. The double plastic grocery bags with handles help make a large target.
I don't find relieving myself on a wall much of a problem. I am usually too dehydrated and/or scared to eliminate my bowels. I am sure if the climb was longer than 4 days (longest I have been on a wall)a deposit in the dry bag would be required. I usually drink a large coffee the morning we start on the wall and empty my bowels before hiking to the base. I do notice that my vision gets a little foggy after three days without relieving my bowels, though. Next time I might try a stool softener to make me more regular.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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This subject is probably more important than folks realize. Having taken quite a few folks up their first wall, I can say that the single greatest factor predicting whether somebody is going to be able to hang in there for the distance, is whether they are able to crap or not. If you can crap, you can climb.
One good tip for making sure your dung dangles and in one move too is to eat psyllium husk capsules with dinner. It's the same stuff as in Metamucil. It's gentle but paves the way for a timely load in the morning before the tourists get out their telescopes.
One good tip to help with itchy butt syndrome is to fill a film canister with bag balm. Use it on your hands last thing at night to keep them from splitting and use it on yur but ole on the last wipe. It's worth the weight.
As for attempts at disinfecting your hands and such. I carry baby wipes but also use that waterless antibacterial goop on them at the same time. Getting your hands clean can prevent you from getting sick and I think keeping the aluminum from soaking into your hands for days on end can reduce the incidence of swelling, although David probably knows better.
sierra trading post online is a good source for dry bags
Happy Crappy
Karl
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shaktidas
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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The river bag works good if you don't try to sling it up(harder to do than you imagine and heavy with duct tape). If you're going that route double bag your goods and put the river bag right in the haulbag.
I love the Metolius Waste Caste. The size is just right for toilet stuff and all your (pounded flat) cans and there's not worries abouit leakage.
PVC toobs tend to collect on the summit of big cliffs, and are therefore discouraged by folks who like to visit these areas.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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I believe the Better Way to be the Wall Flower Method. This is not BWT - it is Big Wall Fact.
I have used this method for over a hundred-fifty days on the big wall, and it works fine. It is not, however, a panacea. It has its drawbacks - rain, wind, and slabs. However properly done, the Wall Flower method will allow you to not have to carry your crap down off the summit.
Start with paper grocery bags. This may seem counter-intuitive, but let me assure you that even the runniest big wall dump will not penetrate a paper grocery bag - honest!
Tear the bag along the four corners about halfway down to the first horizontal fold, and fold the torn edges over the outside. Take a decent-sized handfull of kitty litter, and throw it in the bottom of the bag.
Fill the bag. This is virtually impossible in aiders. It is easiest on a rock ledge. With practice on your portaledge, it is not too bad. Orient the bag longitudinally, not the other way [whatever the hell ya call that way....]
Dr. Piton recommends you pee first! Do not pee against the rock! Pee out into space where it will evaporate! If this is impossible, pee into a wide-necked bottle, and either dispose of it properly later on the summit poured into sand, or else poured later [slowly] into air where it will evaporate. Beware of updraughts - the only thing worse than raining on someone else's parade is raining on your own. Women will need to supplement their system with a "little Johnson funnel". If you do not know what this is, please write.
Big wall aficionados who are unable to separately control their #1 from their #2 may wish to hold a wide-necked bottle under their #1 bit to catch dribbles whilst filling the bag with #2.
Once full, take your Wall Flower bag, shake it up to coat its contents with kitty litter, and wrap it upon itself. Next, take your dedicated Wall Flower Line - thirty or forty feet of 3/16" cord - and tie a slipknot in the bottom end of it. Wrap the slipknot round your bag, cinch it tightly, and lower it down. The Wall Flower hangs well beneath you, where you don't have to worry about the smell.
And each day, your Wall Flower sprouts yet another beautiful and fragrant petal. The bags dry out in the sun as you climb.
When you reach the summit, you may legally burn your Wall Flowers in an existing fire pit.
This is like, me, soloing Shortest Straw, eh? That's like my Wall Flower hanging beneath my ledge. Click the photo as it's a link.
Caveats:
Wind: Not a problem, actually. The trick is to use a decent sized handfull of kitty litter, and wrap your bag tightly. If the bag is properly and densely rolled, it will not fly around in the wind too much.
Slabs: Slabs wear holes in your Wall Flower. This was only a problem for me really on the opening pitches of Jolly Roger on the somewhat slabby South-West Face of El Cap. Generally, this is not a problem. Usually all it means is that because the bag is a bit abraded, you may wish to simply cut the wall flower line, and chuck it in the fire. It might be too contaminated to undo the slipknot on the bag.
Rain: The biggest problem. Soggy wall flower bags are no fun. Don't climb in the rain.
Apart from that, I believe the Wall Flower Method to be the Better Way to manage big wall waste.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I emphatically do not carry sh|t down from the summmit. Never.
Tom Kasper cleans the crux pitch of Scorched Earth, while our Wall Flower dangles far out in space above him. Click the photo, as it's a link to our Scorched Earth Slide Show. This is a good shot of our [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=12041&forum=19&8"]Catch Lines[/url] - from left to right, food bucket, [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=17118&forum=19&32"]the amazing Flying Blue Whale,[/url] Fish Grade V sub-bag, Fish portaledge fly bag [empty cuz ledge is flagged], Fish 5-Season Fly bag, Rob-O-Bag, and Wall Flower.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I appreciate the Pete is part of experimenting with a lot of new ideas for wall climbing. I really like the munter haul bag release system, but the wall flower idea is a load of crap.
It's limited to routes that are steep from bottom to top, assumes that it never rains, and requires a dang fire on top of every wall. If everybody used this system, it would be an envronmental blight! The rock would get crappy and the fires could create problems.
I think you should keep this wall flower system as your dirty little secret Pete and not advertise a system with such negative consequences to the larger climbing world where it is generally not appicable and could easily create access problems, health problems, and stink problems.
Suck it up, carry the crap down
PEace
karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Karl,
Your observations are valid. I have no desire to get into a pissing contest, and maybe I really should shut up about what works for me, however I will offer you a couple comments.
On steep walls like the South-East Face of El Cap, the Wall Flower method works really well. I have tested it over nearly two hundred days [which really *is* a load of crap!] and it works just fine, subject to the caveats above.
I've got the OK from the rangers to burn the bags on the summit, as long as I use an existing firepit, of which there are several on El Cap.
In a perfect world, everyone would carry down all their crap. Unfortunately, having climbed El Cap so many times, I can tell you that this is not the case. There are poop tubes all over the summit of El Cap! Chucked under boulders, left lying on ledges [especially Thanksgiving], hiding under manzanita bushes. Every now and then some good samaritans pick the things up, but guarantee you I could find a sh|tload of the things up there right now.
For people unwilling to carry their crap down, it may be a viable option.
[/rant]
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I agree with Karl, but Pete has a good point too...
It's like picking the less of two evils I guess...abandoned poop tubes are a terrible and shamefull thing, anytime I see one I am almosty ashamed to be a part of a group that could be so negligant toward our beautiful resource (El Cap). However, I definately wouldn't want to see tons of new fire rings all over the place either.
Perhaps Pete uses the same ring everytime, and it is well established, but you get a bunch of yahoos who don't really care one way or another burning their crap and I'm sure it would become a problem.
Not to mention that I'm pretty sure it is illegal...and I'm pretty sure a fire that got out of control would definately get the Parck Services attention.
Either way, people need to take resonsibility for their own sh#t and not leave it for others to see/deal with. I'll never forget my first trip up El Cap, we pulled up to Camp 6 starving and ou8t of food. Decided to investigate a white bucket that looked like a food bucket...turns out it wasn't.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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I wish someone had burned the sh#t that I stepped in on top of ElCap instead of just dumping it wherever they felt like it!!! Then again, I agree with Karl that having everyone burn sh#t bags is not a viable long term solution.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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This is a good thing to think about. Is it viable, or not? I always build a campfire on the summit in an existing fire pit. To me, it is not a big deal to burn a few paper bags. Wall Flowers are tremendously easy to manage.
Now when I answered Karl's rebuttal, I was only looking to the summit. But there is somewhere else you need to look when considering the problem of human waste on a big wall, and that is at the wall's base.
Take a walk along the base of El Cap sometime, and tell me how many sh|t bags you find. Five? Ten? Twenty? Some people just chuck the damn things off without any concern whatsoever! And I'm not talking about in the 1970's or 80's - I'm talking about the New Millennium! There are plenty of folks who believe this is acceptable behaviour!
Actually, this is probably what Dr. Piton calls "situational ethics", whereby the perpetrators probably agree that chucking sh|t bags off a big wall is not cool, however in their situation it is.....
I have yet to speak to one person who admits to doing this, but believe me, mates - there are tons who do! In fact, I bloody guarantee you there are people reading this post right now who have chucked bags off! They'll just never tell you.
I *routinely* carry a garbage bag and gloves up to the base when I am schlepping loads, and on the way down, I'll pick up discarded sh|t bags, empty cans, paper, and whatever amounts of garbage I find, which is always PLENTY. Have you ever wondered what happens to this garbage? [Like, "Hi," eh?] I find having to do this extremely annoying, but it appeals to my philanthropic side. Karl might say it's good karma!
It's well and fine to say that poop tubes or PVC bags or whatever are the Better Way, and they are, when their contents are properly disposed of! But the contents are NOT properly disposed of, and to tell you the truth, I am sick and tired of other people's sh|t all over the base, summit and ledges of El Cap!
If you are unwilling to carry your crap down, then consider the comprimise of burning it on the summit!
Grrrrr........
[/rant]
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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kudos to Pete and Karl, both great points. Throwing sh#t bags off to land at the base is inexcusable. Unfortunately, it highlights the difference between someone who has a sustainable attitude about the environment/resource and someone who is a climber. While often embodied in the same person, it seems just as often they are separate. It does make one ashamed to see what some other climbers are capable of in terms of trashing places.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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"If you are unwilling to carry your crap down, then consider the comprimise of burning it on the summit!"
How 'bout this...If you are unwilling to carry your crap down, go big in the morning and climb in a push or stay off of routes where crapping may need to occur.
I have carried out an abandoned poop tube before, but there's not much that I can do to fix things if someone's wall flower splatters all over or they don't know how to manage a campfire on the summit.
I think that most people looking for advice on how to pack out their poo are more likely to be on less steep routes like the SF of the Column where the wall flower is totally inappropriate.
[rant]I've found crap on routes TWICE in the last month and these were free climbs. Assuming that emergencies will sometimes happen, at least fling your crap off the ledge when you are done so I don't have to. (Or better yet, lower to an off route place and go there.) [/rant]
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Maybe I'm just bias or a bit synical...but I have to make a big broad generalization here and it may piss some folks off...
Is it just me or does anyone agree that most of the people who toss shitbags Euro's?
Had an experince where a German(perhaps, some slavic language) party left a nice present for us tied to the anchor under the roof of the shield...WTF is up with that???? It wasn't like we were rushing them or anything...they were well above us. grrr...vent.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Another thought...
Is it just me, or is does anyone else find sitting around a pile of burning sh#t NOT very appealing?
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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My s'more tastes funny...
Euros have an enlightened attitude about their waste. They enlighten themselves of the burden, and you find it later.
M: ask J about the ziplocked gift at the Block...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Hey Pete...ever hear that saying:
"Everyone likes the smell of their own sh#t?"
Is that why you've soloed so many El Cap Routes?
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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I use the Metolius Waste Case. It works well for me!
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coylec
Trad climber
Columbia, SC
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My only experience with "solid waste disposal" has been to use PTPP's wall-flowers. And, yes, there is something "magical" about the smell of burning feces.
A couple of notes:
1. You must burn, burn and burn some more to completely destory your waste.
2. It will take time, as you must both completely eliminate your waste and then extinguish your fire and properly dispose of the ashes.
3. Pete said it, I'll repeat it: USE EXISTING RINGS. Campfires cause a lasting impact on the backcountry. Using only small sticks from the ground (small means stuff you can break with your hands EASILY ...) and making a small fire, you can dispose of your flowers.
4. Once you have burned it all to ASH ... you must scatter the cool ashes. This will take time.
see http://www.lnt.org/TeachingLNT/LNTEnglish.php for more information.
Next wall, I do believe I'm going to try using a PVC bomb. Don't knock it til you've tried it, that's my opinion. Besides, what works for one person may not work for another.
WARNING: BWT - Here's a thought: typically, one disposes of human waste by creating a cat hole and burying it. During Chad and I's time, we created a small bouquet of flowers, yet it would not be unreasonable to have disposed of the feces in 2 or 3 catholes. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Storing said feces in some sort of container and burying said waste in properly done cat holes seems like a good idea ... does anyone know anything about this?
coylec
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"Storing said feces in some sort of container and burying said waste in properly done cat holes seems like a good idea ..."
NO!
"typically, one disposes of human waste by creating a cat hole and burying it."
This is not true. In most high traffic climbing areas (Mt Rainier, Mt Shasta, Tetons, etc, it is required to pack your sh#t out! There are too many of us to start burying our sh#t on top of El Cap.
Get a Waste Case, much lighter then PVC.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I will be the first to agree that, if you are going to do something crappy out of desparation, do the lesser of the evils. Leaving a PVC tube on the summit or the descent one of the worst abominations, Tossing bags is bad but only half as bad if you spend a few HOURS cleaning up the whole base of the Stone when you return. Saying you will and then not doing it is worse than just being a lowlife and tossing bags.
IF you are lazy about PVC, then use a river bag, the crap doesn't really weigh that much.
Still, I'm with Melissa, I'm afraid that publicizing this wallflower crap is going to influence the South Face of the Column/ Leaning Tower crowd. There is no fire pit on the top of the tower. The Column is too low angle for these antics, and many folks don't stay and bivy after their wall, particularly grade 5s.
Pete has posted on the net about flying his haul bag off EL Cap (not by accident) and suggesting folks drag paper bags full of crap up their walls when only 25% percent of the walls in Yosemite would "Maybe" be suited for such a thing, and only if only a few folks did it. A small minority of climbers have fires on top of El Cap, if everybody did it, there wouldn't be any wood up there, particularly near the fire pits, and how would everybody fire up the damp ones from that morning?
Some tricks are better kept to yourself
Peace
Karl
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tradman
Trad climber
australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2004 - 07:13am PT
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Thanks to all for the great info. Will be heading over to Yosemite from abroad during September. Is the `Metolius waste can` readily available from suppliers in the Valley or San Fran?? What is the cost in US dollars??
Thanks
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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From the Metolius website:
That funny orange tube with the plastic bags was officially named the “Waste Case.” A competition was held at the semi-annual Outdoor Retailer Show in Salt Lake City this last summer. Out of the many entries received, the “Waste Case," brainchild of Mary Karabin, was the final choice. Other entries included:
The Crapsule
Orange Poop-sickle
Number 2 Bag
Coiler Can
Sooper Pooper
Safe Deposit Box
The Vault
Stool Tool
The Babysitter
The Dumpster
Crap Chute (followed by an enthusiastic "Yes")
The Log Jam
The Honey Bucket
Jim's Sack (courtesy of JD LeBlanc)
Devil's Tower
#2 Friend (a good one)
South Chute
Sharma's Last Move(ment)
Crowning Glory
Snake Charmer
Lil' Squirt
El Pupero Chico (translated: The Little Shitter)
Flarecan
The Daily Duffel
El Paculator
Wise Acre
Lunch Bag (sick)
El Crapitan
El Crapican
Toilenator
Orange John (we add Coke here)
Potty Shack
Business Bucket
Metopig
Agent Orange
Tube of Doom
The Drop Zone
The Hump T Dump T
Tall Boy
Master Cylinder
The Grand Poo Bah
The Wall Throne
Smart Ass
The Daily Exposure (outstanding)
Mud Falcon Retention System
Sphincter Cone
Dung Duffel
Hershey Haul Bag
B.D. Crapalot
The Loo
The Ranger's Lunch Bag
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coylec
Trad climber
Columbia, SC
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Lambone's right about the traffic thing. I'm brain dead.
coylec
ps - at least i warned ya it was bwt.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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El Crapitan is my favorite...Maybe they can use that one for their deluxe 3-man version? Thanks for the potty humor!
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Mike!
Trad climber
Idaho USA
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A boater's DRY BAG works fine. You can roll it up and toss it in your haul bag. It doesn't smell.
The buisness:
Paper bag with the edges roled down (medium, grocery) gets the deposit - tiolet paper goes in - I sprinkle in some cat box deoterizor - then tripple bag the whole thing in old plastic bags.
Baby wipes - hand sanitizor - and nobody wiggles the ledge while pants are down.
If you wanna burn this stuff, just open the DRY bag at the fire ring. Carry down the plastic bags. Wash your hands befor you eat.
have a nice day.
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Mike Hartley
climber
Colorado Springs
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Though a bio-degradable system like the waste case seems to be the way to go I've also used this. A 2 gal plastic bucket with a lid from your local hardware store makes a great groover/shitter. Line it with a heavy plastic bag, spread open a paper bag (preassembled with bleach/kitty litter) sitting in the bucket, do your thing, and then seal it up. Doesn't weigh anything, gives you a well defined target while you are riding the bucking bronc called your ledge, is cheap, lightweight, durable, etc.
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Wade Icey
climber
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I've heard there are bathrooms with no walls but, you mean, like, there are walls.....with no bathroom?
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ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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the waste case is available at the mtn store in curry village .. i think it sells for $60 ..
.. i'm getting one of those before my next trip ..
 ricardo
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