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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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"Also, though I agree that overall the cam lobes appear nearly new, there are several pretty deep gouges in them which would imply a fairly significant load (from the fall in question?). "
Aliens are soft. I got much deeper grooves in my red alien on a 3' winger about 15' out. A buddy took a 4' winger on my yellow and got much deeper indentations than that, also about 12-15' out if I remember right. Those look like what happened to my fresh offset aliens from bounce testing the first time out.
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m2j1s
Trad climber
boulder, co
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I'm curious, has anyone contacted CCH and asked when they expect to announce the situation? I know they have been pretty bad at contacting the public in the past, hopefully they will improve in that area. Also, does anyone know if falling on alien cams weakens the brazing at all? For example, is it logical to test these cams by aid bouncing or taking small whippers on them, or will that weaken the brazing? (this situation sucks for those of us who's entire small rack is aliens..) and by the sound of it, are the cable wires inserted into the cam head by hand? on cch's website it says everything is computerized, but that would mean every alien is subject to this issue.. kinda a scary situation, and also scary that if it was a person brazing the head on, that they would be careless enough to do this, especially when people depend on these devices with their life. hmmmm i just wonder how many other aliens are similar to this one, but just havnt taken that one fall yet.
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Aww...sh#t. I have not checked in on this thread in awhile. Those photos make me sort of queasy... Any diehard (no pun intended) CCH fans want to buy one green and one yellow Alien?
Brian
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
pitch above you
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m2j1s- "I'm curious, has anyone contacted CCH and asked when they expect to announce the situation? I know they have been pretty bad at contacting the public in the past, hopefully they will improve in that area."
Yeah right. My guess is they're gonna keep their head down hoping this will blow over, just like seemed to do last time. Maybe another weak promise to implement ISO 9000 processes, just like they promised over a year ago. This still appears to be little more than a one-line promise on the internet (wanna hang your ass on that?) For promise see: http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/recall/faq.html
Bottom line: they deserve to lose the business at this point. Even disregarding new failures, not fulfilling the promises made after the recall is weak beyond forgiveness. Now if they have secretly implemented the ISO 9000 and not announced it, I'll be happy to eat my words and publicly apologize. But I have very little fear that will be necessary.
I liked Aliens, but they killed it for me with their handling of these issues. I've yet to see anything from them that convinces me that they even give a sh#t that people depend on their gear. It's not like they're manufacturing spatulas, but that seems like the level of their commitment. Maybe they should start making bongs (not the kind Yvon made) or something like that so when they can't be bothered to do it right, nobody's life is on the line.
--->Bob
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andanother
climber
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I must say I am thoroughly impressed with the timely and professional response this has received from CCH. I bet the head ostrich at CCH buried his head in the sand as quickly as possible back on april 20th, and apparently it is still buried.
That is one fine, reputable company they are running over at CCH.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Cross-post from RC.com...
-------------------------------------
The cam stem did not "break over an edge" and this is not an example of the previous "brazing failure" which was the subject of the recall. This is a new failure modality likely resulting from failing to check to see if the stem was still really seated down in the shaft before brazing. It was clearly only inserted a a couple of millimeters at the time of the brazing at best.
And that isn't the bad news. To be honest, manufacturing errors happen, what is sad in this case is that it is fairly indicative that all new cams are not being pull/tensile tested before shipping. I find it incredibly hard to belive this cam would ever have passed any such a test.
Mistakes, even recalls happen, but for a cam stamped '307' to fail after the miscues of the past two years, well - there really is nothing whatsoever left to say - the defective cams speak for themselves. It is clear at this point that self-help is not the answer to the woes besetting CCH. If you're going to use Aliens then the responsibility has now officially passed on to you. And if I was you (and I am for these purposes) I'd do just what Maldaly said he was going to do - get a hammer and funkness and do your own damn testing. Get on'em or get down.
[ Edit: Oh, and the quality of the cut used to cut the stem cable to length leaves a lot to be desired as well. Looks like a raggedy affair and I can only imagine what tool was used to produce it. If it had been a clean cut it is possible the braze job wouldn't have held up to handling of any kind at all and would have been detected at the time of the brazing. ]
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m2j1s
Trad climber
boulder, co
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10$? i'd go 18$ + shipping for all those 'probly defective' aliens out there! just pm me :)
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I've got about 10 aliens up for bidding... All pre-dimpled.
$18 so far... anything higher?
-Fear
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WBraun
climber
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Has anyone x-rayed the stem to see if what healyje said is true?
Are you 100% sure healyje?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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About the comments that the cable was not fully inserted prior to brazing....
I sent an E-mail to CCH asking that they measure the length of the post-failure cable and then compare it to the manufacturing specification for the length of the cable before it is inserted into the socket and brazed. Seems like a simple check to perform.
Bruce
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I've put flexible 7x19 cable with really fine wires, like that used for the Aliens, into tight fittings and brazed them. And guess what? Sticking that type of cable into a tight hole can be a real PITA. First of all, when you cut it, even with a good v-notch cutter, the wires tend to fray out. Even if the cut is very clean, if one of the wires snags going in, and bends back, the cable can get stuck and feel like it's seated, when it's not.
And it's nearly impossible to taper the end of that type of cable on a grinder first, so it goes in reliably.
I finally figured out that I had to braze the tip of the cable first to solidify it, grind a taper, and then stick it in the hole. Actually, I used to braze the cable in the middle, cut through the solidified section, and get two tips, ready for grinding and inserting.
A 1x19 cable has thicker wires, which can be tapered on a grinder and inserted quite easily. But, it's not flexible enough for the Alien design. Most of the U-cable cam designs I've seen use 1x19 cable, though.
CCH could use a vent hole for that joint, which would allow probing to ensure the cable is fully seated in the fitting. Or braze the cable tip first.
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jsb
Trad climber
Palo Alto, CA
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well, at least cch has put something resembling announcement on their website... http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/alien_news.html.
two points of interest:
1) they recognize one of the two recent accidents that has taken place (the one corresponding to the pics we've seen).
2) they claim that ALL cams dated after jan 1, 2006 have been tensile tested to 1750 lbs (7.8 kN) or 2400 lbs (10.7 kN) depending on size.
personally, i used to be a huge fan... but now i feel cheated. i might use my aliens again when i finally learn to aid climb, but only so i can thrash the crap out of them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner, am I 100% sure? No, I don't have the pieces in my hand.
But I find it to be a damn peculiar state for the stem cable end to be in if the cable broke/cut in a fall. Look at the pieces below. If it 'broke', it did so inside the braze without damaging the outer ring of the shoulder of brazing around the stem cable. That would imply it didn't 'break' either over an edge or by being bent much off the axis of straight in-line with the stem. The implication of that was that the cable snapped under an straight, in-line load very similar to a pull test. I find that incredibly unlikely.
I also note from the photos that the 'crater' in the braze is not dissimilar in shape from the end of the wire. And last, I find it utterly amazing not a single cable strand broke of in such a manner as to leave a strand or two sticking out of the head. Instead, all I see are what look like pits that could very much be the indentations made by the strand ends of the stem cable as it is shown.
Again, I'm not absolutely certain, but it is an amazing break if that is truly what it is...
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KevinC
Ice climber
Colorado
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Again, yabut. Looking at the head, it appears that the failure point is *outside* the head. If the failure occured as suggested, this would require that the cable wasn't inserted AT ALL prior to brazing. THAT would be a hard mistake to miss and a hard braze to make.
Not saying that this isn't a new problem, just that we don't know what it is yet and need a professional opinion.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dumb question:
When did they change trigger styles on the yellow? I wanty.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Tend to agree with Werner. This doesn't look like a problem from minimal insertion or lousy brazing. Healyje's arguments are non-persuasive based on the photos.
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rhyang
Ice climber
SJC
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I have newer (rope sheath instead of wire braid) green & yellow aliens with date code of 606 - I assume this means mfg date of June '06. I have placed and yarded on them, but no falls.
They are not marked 'tensile tested', unlike the three made in '05 I sent in for testing after they were returned from CCH. I called up CCH and asked about the new ones - near the base of the stem they have the letter "L" stamped. This apparently is Dave's middle initial, and indicates that he brazed them personally, so these should have been tensile tested.
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Steven
Trad climber
Arvada, Colorado
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Healyje,
I think the braze is the reason there are no frayed wires. The braze would make that section of the cable almost solid which would explain the clean looking break. I would like to know if this was the first fall on the cam?
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ramonjuan
climber
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Another way to tell if the cable broke at the male/female joint is to prep the female end and acid etch it. This would reveal if any cable strands remain in the braze material. On another note some people have said that manufacturing errors can be made and i agree with this. But there is deffinatly a major problem with CCH's quality control process. I mean you don't see cams made by other manufacturers failing at the brazed cable joint. I am a third party welding inspector and have worked in many different industries but have never had the chance to deal with a situation like this. But i do know the fundamentals of joining metals and there are quite a few things that can go wrong along the way when you are trying to get a quality product. In my work i have had the chance to visit hundreds of different welding operations and have come to the conclusion that if the person on the shop floor doing the work has not been educated in what they are doing and can fully grasp the theorys behind the process being used then you are going to have problems. Just because a company like CCH has quality control procedures written down somewhere in the office does not mean that everybody involved with the work is
fully versed and understands why the procedures are set in place. I have no doubt that the procedure for making the brazed cable joint is well written and engineered properly. It's just a case of not following the procedure on the shop floor. You would be surprised what can go wrong especially when you try to increase production and outsource an important part of the manufacturing process. That's why i have a job. From what i can tell CCH makes a half ass attempt at quality and it shows in theyre product.
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JLP
Social climber
Fargo, MN
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Folks,
It would take way more force than ANY climbing fall can generate to snap that piece of SS cable in pure tension - and there would be a mess of distorted and frayed metal to look at in these photos. As for a bending type failure, show me how it happened and why nothing else was damaged, not to mention where the bending force even came from and why the rest of the cable, beyond the brazing even, remained straight. Fatigue? The cam was new, and again, there are no bends in the cable.
Werner is thinking about Al or low grade plated Cu on a ckt board. This does not apply here.
The cable was clearly not inserted into the hole.
JLP
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