Discussion Topic |
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 2, 2004 - 10:13am PT
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I was in the Valley last weekend and noticed something new in the rangers cars and trucks. The rangers are now carrying M-16 (AR-15?) rifles as well as their shotguns and side arms.
My bro approached the ranger and asked them (two talking to each other) "what are the big guns for?", the male ranger replied "everything".
What do the rangers need this fire power for?
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Why shouldn't they have it?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I think its pretty sad. Read the NPS morning reports for a couple of months...and you'll see that they deal with some bad situations.
Can't imagine how much it costs to qualify and stay trained on that type of firepower (I think they are AR's).
Ugh...
-Brian in SLC
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WBraun
climber
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Where've you been? They've had them for years. You just never noticed them.
"What do the rangers need this fire power for?"
Obviously if you lived here long enough you would know why. There have been many incidences where they where required. Has nothing to do with climbers whatsoever. Everthing going on outside the park also comes in........
Werner
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno
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What, have the squirrels mutated? An m-16 fires too small a caliber for bears. Can't imagine them actually using one on humans. Must be penis envy.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Yes...they have had them for years. But, having been trained with both the m-16 and riot shotgun, I see know reason for the m-16.
Fire that shotgun, or even load a round in the chamber and if you don't stop dead in your tracks you are deaf! (which in a "shoot don't shoot" sceniero I blew away a deaf guy...but that is another story)
good day to all, time to get on that wall! (be otch)
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2004 - 11:45am PT
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I have no problem with the rangers having M-16s, I was suprised to see it mounted in the cab of the car. Perhaps they have had them for years and I never noticed.
I suppose I always has a better view of Yosemite. I dont think of the park as a place for gang banging-crack smoking punks.
I do know that rangers often work alone and they are more likely to be assulted (than other law enforcement officers), but do they approach the rowdy crowds with M-16 in hand.
As park visitors we are supposed to register any guns we bring in, do people follow this rule?
So what do they use them for? Werner, can you give me an incident where they used an M-16.
I am a gun owner, my father was a cop for over 32 years, I have no problem with authority or guns. I am just curious.
I never thought it a climber issue, perhaps I am stiring it up a bit, but its fun.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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"So if a nut job is shooting at you with a rifle from 500 yards..."
Then an M16 won't do much good cause their effective range is 300 yards for the most part, also it's not that big of firepower, especially if they don't have a full auto option. But myself I think it would look cooler if they used AK47s, now if they had M203s, that would be some mo betta fire power. Have a granade launcher under the M16..WOOHOOO..watch out Yogi and BooBoo!!
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kismetcapitan
Trad climber
Seoul Korea
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I watched Dan Osman get arrested in the Camp 4 parking lot - it was for that "filming without a permit" bullshit but the enormous .38 they pulled out of the cab of his truck did not help his situation one iota.
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dougs510
Trad climber
Nashville, TN.
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I shot expert with an M-16, that means effectivness from 500 yards required.... A good Marine Crops sniper can kill a person from 1000 yards with an M-16
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Camp Perry in the last few years is/was going to M-16's. Long distance accuracy.
Brian in SLC
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"I shot expert with an M-16, that means effectivness from 500 yards required.... A good Marine Crops sniper can kill a person from 1000 yards with an M-16"
Thank you for clarifying that. I am an instructor for shotgun, handgun, and AR-15. The AR-15(especially the model made by Bushmaster) is incredibly effective at long ranges. Especially using the 60 grain soft point on top of 25+ grains of BLC2 powder. That pushes that baby out there at 3200fps.
Think about it. Federal land, buildings, and employees are prime targets for attack, especially nowadays. The LE rangers should have as much firepower as possible.
"I still prefer my M1A ( M14 clone ) in .308."
Purchased mine with a fiberglass military stock. Had a custom match wood stock fitted to it, glass-bedded the barrel, had the trigger tuned up, and promptly shot a four shot clover-leaf from prone at 100+ yards. The only problem with the M1A is the bulkiness and the weight. The AR-10(.308 in AR-15 configuration) would be the way to go for LE.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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My bad..looks like my old infantry training is about as dated as my memory. Little VietNam aka Ft. Polk LA...ugh..what a bad place that was
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"My bad..looks like my old infantry training is about as dated as my memory"
Maybe you are so old that your infantry training was with the M1 carbine,effective range about 30'? LOL!
P.S. Thank you for your service!
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Dapper Dan
climber
The OC
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i shot a pepsi can off of the fence in my backyard at 11 yards. Daisy....9 pumps. enough said
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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LOL!
I shot a full Pepsi can out of a muffler pipe using the old hairspray ignition(concept behind the potato gun) and the thing went a quarter mile.
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pinkpoint
Social climber
Nevada
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homeland security.
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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My M1A has a McMillan fiberglass stock, rear lugged S. A. reciever fully bedded, trigger job, match sights and a Krieger 1:10 twist barrel. Heavy, but shoots .75 minute of angle out to 600 yards ( maybe further - have never tried 1000 yds. ). Of course, my AR 15 has a Krieger stainless barrel too.......
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Jody...nawww I'm not that old, and luckily my time as a ground pounder/bullet catcher was short lived. But on the other hand it was way to much fun shooting all those nice big caliber weapons they let people like me shoot. I mean there's nothing nicer then a 50 cal machine gun mounted on a track. talk about range...we used to have night firing exerices with the 81mm mortors, 4.2 mortors, 50 cals and 106 recoiless rifles all on the same range at night. Talk about trails and tracers...woohoo
back to the rangers, maybe we should arm them with potato cannons. LOL
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2004 - 03:24pm PT
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"Think about it. Federal land, buildings, and employees are prime targets for attack, especially nowadays. The LE rangers should have as much firepower as possible"
Jody you are right.
I dont think my Mini 14 is as accurate as those Bushmaster ARs but it sure is a nice gun. I just dont have the cash to buy the M1A or AR. So I settled, at least my rounds are common.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno
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Dood, if the A-rabs start bombing El Cap, I'm moving to Bolivia. They'd be really desparate by that time. Give me a break.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Hey Dave, who said anything about Arabs. What about wackos that hate the Feds...remember Timothy McVeigh? There are plenty of weirdos out there that see any government employee as the enemy and would like nothing better than to take one out. Take your head out of the sand...nobody can be trusted at any time.
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Couloir
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Hey everyone, there's a nascar race on tv right now. Break out your Coors and start beating the kids. Damn gun nuts.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Nor Cal...I own a Mini-14 also...nice weapon. Isn't it amazing that the Mini-14 shoots the same round as the AR-15, uses very similar magazines(some are interchangeable), and is semi-auto, yet the AR-15 is labeled an "Assault weapon" and the Mini-14 isn't?
Why? Because the AR-15 looks nasty.
Mini-14:
AR-15:
No difference other than looks.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dood..go hang at the deli and swill some OE, then go hang in that dirt hole they call a campground and like every other loser there you get to beat your own meat cause the women that are there belong in Montana...LOL..just kidding to all those Montana peeps.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno
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"nobody can be trusted at any time"
Great way to live your life. I don't trust you, Jody.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Dave, don't be a dork...you know what I meant. You have to be on your guard at all times, especially in law enforcement and even more so with federal LE.
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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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No, doods, whats up with the orange shotguns that I have seen them rangers toting around. I was at the meadow grill in towulume one time and this ranger got out of her ttruck with a big, regular sized orange shotgun. Like, the pump and the stock were both bright orange. Rest was black, sup with that?? Anyone else seen this??
-corbin.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Clayman...these shotguns are used for "less-than-lethal" applications such as beanbags, etc.
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tyrone
Trad climber
california
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i can think of plenty of situations that could arise where park rangers would benefit from having an AR15 since they are the only LE for miles. for example, a guy working at the valley grocery store has a girlfriend that works at the lodge. chick leaves said grocery store checker for a hunk climber. checker goes psycho had goes to the lodge to kill the chick, the climber, and himself......and whoever else is around at the lodge.
until they have hum-vees with mounted 60cals at the park gates i think arming the park rangers is no big deal.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Screw arguing about rangers possessing AR-15s...I think ALL law-abiding citizens should possess one.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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{sigh} I love the way you Merricans talk about your assault rifles and hand guns. All we're allowed up here in the Great White North is deer rifles and moose shotguns, eh? [However I am known to shoot a little beaver from time to time...]
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno
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I had my fun shooting M16s and M60s in HS & college. I agree with whoever it was that that kind of power is not needed in the hands of rangers. Does the Valley really needs a SWAT team?
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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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Less than lethal, why would rangers need that?
And Guido-- are you saichis younger brother, that used to yard duty at my school, (palmer)? I remember Ian telling me that you did have a toatally crazy like m-16 or something like that.... I might have the wrong person...but any who...
-corbin
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"I agree with whoever it was that that kind of power is not needed in the hands of rangers. Does the Valley really needs a SWAT team? "
What are you afraid of? You think the rangers are going to use it on you for no reason at all? What makes you think that the bad guys will play by the same rules? Remember Cary Staynor? Wherever there are a lot of people(Yosemite for instance) there is always the possibility that some wack job will decide to go 10-8 and then you WILL need a SWAT team. Why wait for it to happen and then prepare for it? Why not prepare for the worst, and hope the worst doesn't happen?
Dave, this world is a bad place and there are bad people in it. You need to wake up and realize that, instead of being in denial about the possibility. I carry a weapon everywhere, I truly hope I never need it. However, all it takes is one incident and I'll be glad I have it. It doesn't mean I am paranoid...it means I am using my freakin' melon and preparing for all possibilities instead of just sticking my head in the clouds and hoping nothing bad ever happens.
"Less than lethal, why would rangers need that?"
LOL! First people are complaining about the rangers having too much firepower and now they are complaining about non-lethal?
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tyrone
Trad climber
california
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LOL! i too believe that a fair amount of people that go into law enforcement are cowards on a power trip. not all of them though, and the bottom line is that its a necessary evil that we have to endure. nobody likes getting traffic tickets and all that, but if we didn't draw the line somewhere and make a stand, then we'd have as#@&%es causing all kinds of wrecks. it works the same with everything else. the fact that those rangers have firepower and are willing to use it prevents crime and possibly terrorist action. its not like they're parking tanks in el cap meadow. they just have rifles in the squad cars in case a situation arises.
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WBraun
climber
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Obviously some of you are real dumb f**ks and! I give you just one example; there was a guy in the boulders at Arch rock with a high powered rifle ready to take out anybody. There was a standoff, no shots were fired they were able to have this guy surrender. He had a sh#t load of rounds. Stuff you guys no nothing about. There are more; one where they shot down a CHP chopper in Death Valley. I'm not going to go into details. It's a waste of time for me anyways...since some of you obviously know so much about everything.
Werner
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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beers...Staynor is the worst thing so far, not the "worst case scenario".
"real cops in cities where murders occur EVERY DAY don't carry those weapons."
Shows how little you know...many LE agencies carry them every day in their cars...mine does.
"so why do the rangers need 'em? because they are coward pussies on a power/ego trip."
Stupid, uneducated, childish remark...enough said.
I have a question, why would a coward go into LE? "Power trip" maybe, in some cases. But coward? It takes a coward to walk up on a car in the middle of nowhere with no back-up around? It takes a coward to answer a domestic violence call where it is a fact that most cops get killed in these situations? It takes a coward to do all these things for miniscule pay? It takes a coward to go break up fights in an isolated campground somewhere? Come on people....
Tyrone and Werner, thank you for being voices of reason in this cloud of bullcrap.
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2004 - 11:51am PT
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Werner, thanks for the example. Its stories like that that we never hear about.
The worst story I've heard about in the Valley was about some kids who were going around with spray paint "taggin" trees and boulders.
I've never heard stories of sniper stand-offs. Perhaps these stories are kept quiet as to not detract from the park.
I think it is just fine for the rangers to have their rifles.
I usually pick up on things like the guns in the cab of the ranger vheicles, I had never before seen the M-16 in the Valley. Did I miss it in the past, perhaps, or did the previously carry them in the trunk, I dont know.
I saw a CHP on 101 in Palo Alto yesterday, I noticed the M-16 mounted in his car as he passed me.
As with any law enforcement I just hope that the professionals resort to thier weapons as a last resort, in every case.
I think that the quality of the cop is going down as small women and efeminate men are joining the force. They are more likely to resort to deadly force as they are incapable of taking down a large person any other way. Jody am I wrong with this?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"It's a waste of time for me anyways...since some of you obviously know so much about everything.
Werner"
Geez, Werner - you'd think you'd be used to that sort of stuff around here. There are some people here who even claim to know things about climbing...
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WBraun
climber
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I was refering to the topic about this thread only.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno
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"Dave, this world is a bad place and there are bad people in it. You need to wake up and realize that, instead of being in denial about the possibility...."
Actually, I thought the entire world was like Boulder. ;) You make Jakarta sound like a warm, fuzzy, happy place. Hmmm. you carry a gun, other people use crack. Whatever floats yer boat. I've done just fine with my Spyderco.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Hmmm. you carry a gun, other people use crack. Whatever floats yer boat."
I think it is rather obvious from that silly statement which one of us is the crack user.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Werner...if any dumbass was stupid enough to fire a high powered rifle at that guy, there is no telling where the bullets would end up, after they bounce off the rocks.
Most anytime there is an actual shootout...the cops always fire off hundreds of rounds! (right Jody?)
Rangers don't need M-16's! In the scenerio you describe, call in SWAT, with a sniper rifle.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Most anytime there is an actual shootout...the cops always fire off hundreds of rounds! (right Jody?) "
Actually, no. The dramatic shootouts that you hear about where they are running gun battles are very rare. Most shootouts are a clip or less.
"Rangers don't need M-16's! In the scenerio you describe, call in SWAT, with a sniper rifle."
Okay, I am trying to understand here. You don't want rangers to have rifles because they don't need them. yet you now say that the situation Werner described calls for a SWAT team. What SWAT team? A SWAT team made up of rangers with rifles? There often isn't time to assemble a SWAT team and get it to the scene. It is far more expeditious to already have patrol personnel trained in the use of the higly accurate AR-15 that can be on the scene in minutes as opposed to hours to hopefully minimize the impact of the incident on the park.
What, exactly, do you fear about LE rangers having AR-15's? I am not sure where you are coming from? The problem with only having shotguns and handguns is that the penetrating power sucks. If you have a nutcase behind a car engaging you, you want something that will penetrate the car door at the very least...I am having real trouble understanding the logic behind not trusting LE rangers with weapons...Are you afraid of the rangers or the dirtbag? You people confuse the heck out of me...
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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A SWAT team from a local city. This protocal could be in place, and a sniper team could be in position in a short period of time. One shot vs. numerous shots from less trained individuals.
I would be ok with one, two rangers FULLY trained in the use of AR 15's, but leave them in storage!
I disagree with you Jody on the number of rounds in an actual "shootout" (but you wouldn't surprise me if you had some stats) and five rangers with five round shotguns...who really is going to need penetrating power? (but you are right,the penetrating power does suck)...
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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A local city...Yosemite...Fresno...Two hours response after they assemble. Three hours total...not quick enough for me. Leave the ARs in storage? Why? You either trust them or you don't. Not every situation can be planned for. Some times things just happen. Where would you store them? Headquarters? A situation goes down at Crane Flat or Tuolomne...What good would the AR at headquarters do you? An AR-15 in every patrol car and rangers trained to use them is a good thing. I volunteer, I will train them myself.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"The punks don't get up to Crane Flat."
Aha! But they drive right past Crane Flat on the way to their digs in Merced, etc.
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RB
Social climber
Pasadena, CA
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Rangers have been carrying AR-15's upright in their patrol vehicles since 1991. The fact of the matter is, more rangers have been killed in the line of duty (feloniously by gunfire)in the past five years, than most major metropolitan police departments in this country. The NPS has had 3 rangers killed since 1998 and there have been two ranger involved shootings in the past two months (Redwood N.P. and Coronado) These are unfortunate statistics. Interestingly enough, the LAPD didn't even carry AR-15's in their patrol cars until the Hollywood shooting at the Bank of America in 1998. Now, every unit has them. Unfortunately, many injuries could have been prevented had the LAPD had the proper firepower. Instead, the LAPD administrators waited until something like that happened. In 1988, the visitor center at Old Faithful was taken over by an armed gunman who held 13 people hostage for 8 hours.
3-4 million visitors per year in Yosemite, and you don't think there is a possibility of something like that happening? Let's say it did for a second. Wouldn't you prefer that the responding rangers at least be properly equipped and trained? You're right, the chances of it happening are not high, but have no illusion, it could happen.
The nation's rangers are more likely to be assaulted than any other federal law-enforcement officers, according to Justice Department statistics. In 2000, there were 99 assaults on National Park Service officers, compared with 55 on Customs agents, 55 on Drug Enforcement Administration agents and 25 on FBI agents.
Associated Press
Washington, D.C. - Patrolling federal lands is becoming more and more dangerous, a group tracking attacks on the officers said Wednesday, citing two park rangers killed in the line of duty in 2002 and an overall increase in threats and violence.
A list of incidents last year includes a park ranger killed along the Mexican border, officers who were shot at by a marijuana farmer, a run-in with a chainsaw-wielding tree poacher, and a slew of threats and intimidation.
"These aren't just low-level arguments that escalated. These are people who are willing to enact pretty hard-core violence," said Eric Wingerter, national field director for the group Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility.
"A number of these incidents stem from a growing, simmering anti-government sentiment that is particularly growing in the West," he said.
Noting that park rangers are 12 times more likely to be killed or injured as a result of an assault than FBI agents, Randall Kendrick, the Lodge’s Executive Director, contends that the Park Service has failed to provide adequate staffing to prevent further violence. “This agency refuses to admit that times have changed, even though study after study has pointed out the obsolete and dangerous practices of the National Park Service,” Kendrick stated.
It's been nice to see this site having thoughtful, non-ranger bashing conversations. It would also be nice to see it continue.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Radical... dude, you okay? Have a bad day? Kids keep interrupting you and your wife or something?
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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P.S. If you have a specific instance where a ranger was out of line, lets hear it. Comments like "90% are scum" just knocks the poster off the credibility chart and makes him sound like a whiney child.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Wife and kids are in Texas on vacation.."
Aha! I knew you were suffering from SRH! Your wife isn't even around.
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Voice of Reason
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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O.K., my turm to vent.
I'm sick of climbers whining like babies about the Rangers. Squatting in Camp 4 is a game and the ones who don't play the game and get caught by the Rangers doing something stupid deserve what they get.
"90% of Rangers are a waste of skin" Radical?
Who do you think rebolts a good portion of your favorite routes?
Who risks thier own lives rescuing climbers of all abilities when they get into trouble?
That's right the Rangers do. As for needing fire power, Werner was right, there is stuff going on here that the public knows nothing about..... because the Rangers are doing thier jobs.
This winter rangers had to deal with a 300lb psycho high on meth with a knife, a rape was reported last summer, and all knids of other nefarious doings. So if you think the rangers are being a little hard on you just remember the last call they were on may have been somehting like those I mentioned above. If you play it cool and are HONEST most of the time you'll get no grief.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"If there's a rationale for LEOs to be well armed in National Parks, there's a rational for the citizens to be well armed as well... "
I agree 100% If you'll notice my post above...I said I think everybody should possess an AR-15. Since this was specifically addressing the rangers, I tried to keep my comments to that point. However, I could go on for days about the disarmament of the citizenry in this country being responsible for creating millions of victims.
Dude, I would feel sorry for you having to live in New York, except for I live in California so I can't really talk!LOL!
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Rage Against The Machine............
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Who has the worst senators?
Schumer and Clinton...
Feinstein and Boxer...
Geez, both of us are screwed!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jody, I completely agree with you about the guns.
Maybe they carry them to pick climbers off of El Cap?
I can just see it:
"Hey man, I just got one off of pitch 26 of the Nose! I think that's a record!"
:)
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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The really good marksmen use them to chop bolts from a distance...
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Gene
Social climber
Two hours away
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Thank God the basement parking at the Awahnee is secure. Now maybe I can go do the Arches.
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Skully
Big Wall climber
Idaho
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I could EASILY pick off a monkey from the 'prow' of the Bismark{sic}. With an M-16. Keep your head down.....A more practical & cheaper rescue technique.
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Michelle
Social climber
Zone 10
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The really good marksmen use them to chop bolts from a distance...
ha ha Jody. Don't you have anything more to do than sit around the pool taking commando pictures of each other? (jk)
for some strange reason, the rangers seem to leave me alone. It might be because I don't emit a foul ranger-hating aura, but who knows, some harmless folks get pulled over for drunk driving when they haven't been drinking.. It seems to me that people want to bitch about THE MAN, even when THE MAN is making it so we can live in a society where we have enough time to bitch about THE MAN. The Valley seems like a pretty safe place considering the mutable transient population, all from cultures unlike our own. You'd think under these circumstances crime would be a lot worse there. And you complain about getting popped at your favourite stealth bivy or bugged at C4. Try to stealth bivy in Oakland, the cops will be the least of your worries.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Didn't take that one...stole it from a website.:)
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anachronism
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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If you play it cool and are HONEST most of the time you'll get no grief. . Hmm.. How come that isn't "If you play it cool and are honest they will NEVER give you any grief"?. Because they don't trust anyone. That feeling is mutual. I don't trust them.
Now I don't have a problem with these Tools toting whatever weapon they want so long as they are properly trained. With that in mind, I'd have to ask why there is one Tool armed in the ditch with a pistol much less a spudgun.
Oh.. and let's not let "Voice of Reason's" neat little comment go without pointing out the idiocy of it:
Who do you think rebolts a good portion of your favorite routes?
Who risks thier own lives rescuing climbers of all abilities when they get into trouble?
Climbers are Tools? Last I checked it was climbers that rebolted routes and it is climbers that make up the SAR team (and do the dangerous work). Not a bunch of un-trained wannabe rescue-Tools. It's either that or a lot of my good friends have a career I don't know about. Oh, or maybe you are confusing the wannabe rangers that want to be climbers (and want to be the guys doing the cool rescue work). I realize there are few trained climbers (Linc, etc.) but for each one of those we have 10 Keith Lobers.
I'm with radical on this one... click click...
Time to dig up the old and uncensored and orignal Bodycount... How's that go again? I'd like to take a pig...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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"Time to dig up the old and uncensored and orignal Bodycount... How's that go again? I'd like to take a pig..."
Got my 12 guage sawed off...
Gonna dust some...
Plays a cop now on TV (NBC's Law and Order).
Way too funny...
-Brian in SLC
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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With you Anachoronsim...
Do people REALLY think that rangers do the retrobolting and rescues???
I am surprised to see them get off their asses and get out of our rigs! (keep in mind, those guns they carry belong to us as well)
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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There is one ranger that has done some bolt replacement, but when he isn't retooling the rock he tries to tool climbers. I'm sure someone here could tell you how this guy went after Shipoopie.
One night last summer he spent 10 minutes standing on my rear bumper bounce testing my suspension, and I think he even made bear noises? (I was a bit groggy); that was kind of entertaining though.
All those rangers don't need all that firepower. A few rifles and a few highly trained LEOs are all that is necessary for the whole park. One on duty or on call in Wawona, one in Tuolumne, one in the valley, etc. I remember the night in '93 when I drove through the Tioga road just a few minutes after the ranger shot himself and claimed that someone else did it. You should have seen the bug-eyed rangers at the roadblocks; they were the frightening thing that night, not what might be (but wasn't) lurking in the trees. Shotguns and AR-15s were in every rangers hands, and I doubt that they were even all LEOs. They were terrified and jumpy. One ranger, when he was assigned to search my truck, pleaded with me to tell the truth and reassure him that I really would tell him if someone was hiding in the back of my truck; I was afraid he'd shoot my sleeping bag or pack. I remember thinking at the time that if a bear went lumbering through the pitch-dark forest the rangers would instantly open up in unison and carpet the forest with bullets like something out of a war movie.
I don't know about you, but I have not been impressed by the maturity or psychological stability of some of the rangers in Yos. And I certainly don't feel any safer in Yos, or believe that my girlfriend or any of my friends are any safer in Yos because some guy patrolling Yos -- who makes bear noises and jumps up and down on my bumper or does a 10 minute drum solo on my shell or turns on his siren when he drives by me and then turns around and does it again out of frustration because he can't roust me -- has a couple pistols, a shotgun, AND an AR-15.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Hey apoc...delete those question marks...you screwed up the thread and it is about two miles wide and I hate scrolling.
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Voice of Reason
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Hey Anachronism,
I'm not saying all Rangers are Ned Flanders hippity helpful, just like any other sampling of the population you've got your bad eggs and the downright as#@&%es.
Yeah, SAR is made up of climbers in Yosemite but the majority of these climbers were not trained when they initially got on SAR (not to say they can't climb). The training came later, with experience, and was taught by, jeez.....the rangers. No SAR experience is necessary to get on YOSAR, just a good attitude and basic climbing skills.
And is it really so unfathomable that rangers would rebolt? Why the hell not? Rangers climb too, Lincoln's not the only one (thank god).
Anyways, climbers put rangers under the looking glass because they're thrown in a situation together. Tools would do the same to librarians, if they read that much.
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anachronism
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Apoc, for once I have to agree with Jody - delete those question marks. Actually, it sounds like it annoys him. Perhaps you should leave them.
Voice, I don't argue that rangers train the SAR team but it is the SAR team the does the dangerous stuff. I won't argue that a ranger somewhere along the line replaced bolts but they are not the ones active in the community doing the MAJORITY of the bolts. So no, we don't have them to thank. that is where you are wrong. What we do have to thank them for is allowing for stories like the one Loom told. Comical! Thanks for that one Loom - I'm with ya there, bro...
peace out...
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Hmmm. strangely, the question marks wrap correctly for me and don't screw up anything, but prior to the recent web site changes, a post like that would have messed the whole thread up for me. What browsers are you guys that are seeing the problem using?
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jfk
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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"What browsers are you guys that are seeing the problem using?"
IE 6.0
Good discussion, just a bit annoying to follow right now...please delete ????
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anachronism
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Dingus, though you may be correct that still doesn't detract from the fun of calling those rangers a bunch of un-trained wannabee little d&ck@d Tools.
IE 5 - Mac flavor.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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i.e. 6 AND Netscape 7.0 are both screwed up by the ? marks.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Dingus...I know that it doesn't help my case here but in the interest of fairness and the search for the truth...the employee that was shot and ensuing manhunt...wasn't that later determined to be a self-inflicted wound and the outstanding suspect story was made up?
I did a google and couldn't come up with the story but for some reason I remember it as being self-inflicted.
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2004 - 07:25pm PT
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I heard about that ranger who was shot.
Was he shot with a .22?
The story I remember is that he set up the shooting because he wanted to see the rangers get bullet proof vest. I dont want to spread any false rumors but that is the story I recall.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Man, that's some real strong desire for a bulletproof vest.
I didn't mention it above. I'm on Safari 1.2.1.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Question marks gone...sorry about that.
It is just that there is so much I question, like...
Why does a park ranger have to carry an automatic weapon?!
In Josh I was talking with a tool. I mentioned (jokingly) something about riot gear, his reponse,"we have it and are ready to use it." He said this with a serious tone...what the hell!
(duder, if you see this post my client flaked, the trampoline is too much fun sooooooo it was too late to make it to the ditch)
Good day all...
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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looks like quite a few of us were near the Meadows the day that happened. My girlfriend and I were trying to get in from the Eastside and they turned us back. Went and did the Third Pillar instead.
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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" Why does a park ranger have to carry an automatic weapon?! " -
Are the Rangers equiped with M16's or AR15's? Think I'll go shoot my AR this Saturday!!
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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"Why does a park ranger have to carry an automatic weapon?!"
They don't, the AR-15 is a semi-auto version of the M-16.
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scabang
climber
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Tut, tut Jodie (sic)
In the forces we had a name for wannabee's,like you - Dickless Tracy's.
I bet that you have all your miniature Seal operators lined up next to your bath. Wanker.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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oh man. that was a piece of high art radical. I've got tears in my eyes as I'm humming america the beautiful . . . thank you. really.
scabang, welcome to the jody basher club.
jody, you're an idiot.
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anachronism
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Ok, let's all accept Judy's point that these are not M-16's but rather AR-15's. They are not automatic weapons. But lets now ask why, after Jody showed us two versions of the same weapon (mini 14 VS AR15), why these Dickless Tracy's need to carry the mean looking version. Hiding behind a small dick I suppose....
"seal operators next to your bath" Bwaahahahaaaahaaa
Guys, I can't drink my coffee at this rate. The humor is killing my sides and now my keyboard and monitor is soaked with french roast.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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scabang...what exactly is it that makes me a wannabe?
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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" But lets now ask why, after Jody showed us two versions of the same weapon (mini 14 VS AR15), why these Dickless Tracy's need to carry the mean looking version."
Because they are more accurate weapons.
scabang, dufas, anchronism...you three stooges are sure showing your maturity level. Why don't you at least attempt to convey your point without stooping to immature name-calling and such? You guys are pathetic.
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jfk
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Well, I don't know anything about firearms either, and I don't know where I stand on the level of firepowers rangers should have, but if rangers, LE, etc. are going to be armed, I'd rather have them carry the scariest looking weapons manufactured. In my book, it's the old ounce of prevention versus pound of cure argument.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Apr 10, 2004 - 11:45am PT
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"How are the Mini-14 and AR-15 versions of the same weapon? Not built on the same action as far as I know."
You are correct, they are different actions. They are the same in that they are 1.semi-auto, 2.shoot 5.56(.223) ammo, 3.they use detachable clips(some versions work in both weapons).
I think we need to differentiate between "LE rangers" and "campground rangers". I have had some absolutely terrible experiences with "campground rangers" harrassing people. "Climbing rangers" and "LE rangers" I have never had problems with.
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funkness
Boulder climber
Ca.
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Apr 10, 2004 - 12:41pm PT
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Last summer while hiking back to curry from Half dome I passed a Ranger who was wearing a pistol on his belt. I cant figure out WTF he needs a gun in the backcountry for. What is the threat? maybe he was scared of Bears? or unruly hikers cutting switchbacks? Seems to me there is absolutly no need for guns in the Yosemite backcountry.
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Apr 10, 2004 - 02:22pm PT
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Funkness, if you don't want to carry a gun, don't. It would be stupid to send a ranger out without defense. Like I have said before, all it takes is one incident for a gun to be justified. What do you fear from a ranger with a gun? The only people that should be fearing it are those that are up to no good. What makes you think taht bad guys will leave their weapons behind when they come into a park? Personally, I think everybody should be armed...the bad guys would think twice before harrassing people. By wishing that nobody, including rangers, ahd guns, you are enabling the bad guys to roam around without fear of resistance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2004 - 09:53pm PT
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If the rangers are going to have assault weopons, I think it's fine if they LOOK like assault weapons. Perhaps the show of force will make their use less liekly.
For whatever faults they have, I haven't heard about NPS misusing deadly force, except for that ranger who shot himself.
20 years ago I worked for employee housing. We had to call the rangers on some bikers causing trouble in the dorms. They came and got this guy and walked him out towards their NPS vechicle. The guy kept talking about his bad ass "feets" and how he was a martial arts expert and could rip their hearts out with his 'feets.' When he got out to the car he assumed a karate stance and started making hissing noises. There were at least 5 rangers surrounding him. That was the only time I ever saw a ranger unclip the holster of his weapon but he didn't draw it. Then the two oldest rangers in Yosemite, Jo Anne Cross and Lanning, both probably over 50 by a long ways, just walked up to the guy and got his arms behind his back and took em away.
I have heard a few nightmare stories about the rangers from folks who I suspect were telling the truth. I suspect when NPS decides they want you out of the park, they apply a different standard of fairness to you. My experience has been 30% outstanding, 50% neutral, and 20% negative. Of the 20% negative 10% of that would be for them being too slack.
When I ran housing in Wawona, I got a call from a woman near midnight that a guy with a club was trying to break into her house. I just had a big flashlight since you aren't allowed to have guns in company housing, so I called NPS and then went out and staked the guy out. He was at her door threatening to do horrible things to the woman inside. Naturally he was drunk or on drugs. I decided to stay hidden and only come to the rescue if he managed to open her door or try to go through the window. I called NPS several more times over the next 45 minutes while waiting for them to show up. The guy was big and he had a big stick. Finally he wandered off and went into some guest cabin.
Much later,when NPS showed up, they talked to the guy and just let him walk. I've seen em do that in several situations over the years. If arresting them is a hassle, like they would have to drive them down to the valley or if they're foreign or something, they make it easy on themselves and let em go. Naturally different rangers might not do that.
I did pass an off duty ranger many years ago over the double yellow lines (used to be dotted the year before) I didn't know he was a ranger and he had a red pickup with a gun rack. The guy started chasing me and I thought he must be some nut job so I lost em in my red BMW 2002. They had a bunch of rangers waiting for me when I reached the valley. I told em I was just trying to lose this guy who was chasing me. Then the guy shows up! When I told the story in court they reduced the charges to just the passing over the lines.
There's one guy that used to post here that had a ranger watch him pull off the road and go into the woods to take a leak. When he returned to his car, the ranger made threats that if he saw his weener he could have busted him for indecent exposure!
I hate to admit this but many years ago I was a bit whacked out on drugs and the rangers paid me a visit since a well meaning person called them to save me. I know they planned on hauling me off but I was nice to them and they were totally cool to me. They didn't charge me or ask me to rat anybody out.
So I think they're just humans of various sorts and their job can be stressful and using power wisely is hard for anybody, much less somebody getting paid diddly.
We gotta call em on it when they get out of hand, but we owe em some respect and understanding as well.
PEace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 10, 2004 - 09:57pm PT
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If the rangers are going to have assault weopons, I think it's fine if they LOOK like assault weapons. Perhaps the show of force will make their use less liekly.
For whatever faults they have, I haven't heard about NPS misusing deadly force, except for that ranger who shot himself.
20 years ago I worked for employee housing. We had to call the rangers on some bikers causing trouble in the dorms. They came and got this guy and walked him out towards their NPS vechicle. The guy kept talking about his bad ass "feets" and how he was a martial arts expert and could rip their hearts out with his 'feets.' When he got out to the car he assumed a karate stance and started making hissing noises. There were at least 5 rangers surrounding him. That was the only time I ever saw a ranger unclip the holster of his weapon but he didn't draw it. Then the two oldest rangers in Yosemite, Jo Anne Cross and Lanning, both probably over 50 by a long ways, just walked up to the guy and got his arms behind his back and took em away.
I have heard a few nightmare stories about the rangers from folks who I suspect were telling the truth. I suspect when NPS decides they want you out of the park, they apply a different standard of fairness to you. My experience has been 30% outstanding, 50% neutral, and 20% negative. Of the 20% negative 10% of that would be for them being too slack.
When I ran housing in Wawona, I got a call from a woman near midnight that a guy with a club was trying to break into her house. I just had a big flashlight since you aren't allowed to have guns in company housing, so I called NPS and then went out and staked the guy out. He was at her door threatening to do horrible things to the woman inside. Naturally he was drunk or on drugs. I decided to stay hidden and only come to the rescue if he managed to open her door or try to go through the window. I called NPS several more times over the next 45 minutes while waiting for them to show up. The guy was big and he had a big stick. Finally he wandered off and went into some guest cabin.
Much later,when NPS showed up, they talked to the guy and just let him walk. I've seen em do that in several situations over the years. If arresting them is a hassle, like they would have to drive them down to the valley or if they're foreign or something, they make it easy on themselves and let em go. Naturally different rangers might not do that.
I did pass an off duty ranger many years ago over the double yellow lines (used to be dotted the year before) I didn't know he was a ranger and he had a red pickup with a gun rack. The guy started chasing me and I thought he must be some nut job so I lost em in my red BMW 2002. They had a bunch of rangers waiting for me when I reached the valley. I told em I was just trying to lose this guy who was chasing me. Then the guy shows up! When I told the story in court they reduced the charges to just the passing over the lines.
There's one guy that used to post here that had a ranger watch him pull off the road and go into the woods to take a leak. When he returned to his car, the ranger made threats that if he saw his weener he could have busted him for indecent exposure!
I hate to admit this but many years ago I was a bit whacked out on drugs and the rangers paid me a visit since a well meaning person called them to save me. I know they planned on hauling me off but I was nice to them and they were totally cool to me. They didn't charge me or ask me to rat anybody out.
So I think they're just humans of various sorts and their job can be stressful and using power wisely is hard for anybody, much less somebody getting paid diddly.
We gotta call em on it when they get out of hand, but we owe em some respect and understanding as well.
PEace
karl
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Jody
Mountain climber
CA
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Apr 10, 2004 - 09:58pm PT
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Karl, that post was excellent. A breath of fresh air from the misguided political posts you usually make!:)
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Demented
climber
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Apr 11, 2004 - 10:29am PT
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Karl, got any ranger grady bryant stories? he was a friend of mine B4 he became The Man. i dunno how long he was posted in YO.. most of the 80s i think..
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2004 - 11:10am PT
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He's still here. See him almost every day....good man!
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