Discussion Topic |
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 20, 2007 - 12:52am PT
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I for one think it is inevitable.
JDF
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 01:06am PT
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So that is 3 votes - Yes?
I am not sure I can count your votes as it is an adult survey.
Juan
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:11am PT
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Better check with DaftRat before doing anything rash.
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:15am PT
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It's inevertabrull.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:20am PT
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It's inevertabrull.
Tit's a never bull.
Jesus, Mimi - get it right...
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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I give the possibility of war at 75%. I like the way the weathermen do it. I also give the probablility that Whitey will learn to discuss a subject in a mature manner without the invective at one percent. But children will be children.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:38am PT
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You know
You all just huckin & jive n
Where's the hustle and flow?
You all gonna die anyway
Then WHAT?
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:39am PT
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Ya think? I should of used onomatopoeia.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 01:44am PT
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I was hoping for serious opinions. Do you think that we will go to war with Iran? What is your gut feeling?
JDF
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:47am PT
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My gut tells me that eating several wicked chiles and drinking that first cup of joe in the morning will pretty much emulate what will happen if the war in the ME escalates.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:50am PT
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Serious opinions? Ok, I'd say you're off your meds again...
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Mimi
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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Where are the men with the butterfly nets?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 02:00am PT
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Look people how hard is to answer a simple question?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 20, 2007 - 02:02am PT
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Juan, they are afraid, very afraid.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 20, 2007 - 02:29am PT
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And exactly what will you do about it if he does whitey? Oh, I know: "dumbass, dumbass, dumbass."
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Feb 20, 2007 - 02:53am PT
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I'd say more likely than not. We need to keep the economy strong enough to pay for the increased energy costs that feed our leaders.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 20, 2007 - 02:54am PT
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Immediate impeachment proceedings would be in order I should think.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 20, 2007 - 03:12am PT
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It's worth remembering that all army general staffs spend their spare time drawing up detailed plans for all likely military eventualities. (Between the world wars, the tiny Canadian army drew up plans to invade the U.S., just in case it was needed.) So the "plans" may just be something someone took off the shelf, and nothing new.
Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. constitution states that the Congress has jurisdiction: "To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water." If Congress declared war against Iran, I must have been sleeping.
I'm guessing that right now Congress will choose to jealously defend its constitutional rights, unless a genuine act of war is committed by Iran against the U.S. Congress has more and more allowed the executive to usurp the war power, or rubber stamped it when asked. (Gulf of Tonkin 1964, Iraq 2003.) No doubt Cheney, Bush and the boys will claim that it's authorized under the Iraq resolution, or necessary to prosecute the Iraqi war, or because Iran started it (look for a fabricated incident), or that you have to rally around the flag, or that in fact the executive can do whatever it damn well pleases because Congress is a bunch of dithering idiots.
It's quite unclear how any hostilities against Iran would advance the political and strategic interests of the U.S. The U.S. probably can't do much more than bomb strategic targets, and has neither the troops nor the money to actually invade. In other words, they'd put a stick in the wasp's nest, stir it up, and be stuck with the consequences. And the rest of the world would condemn it, while the Chinese and other real foes would find it all quite interesting.
Even if Iran is a real and current threat, Bush may be in the position of the boy who cried wolf too often.
My guess is that any overt steps by the administration toward hostilities toward Iran will lead to impeachment. It will certainly lead to a veto-proof vote by both houses to condemn it, and deny any funding. Given the vote last Friday, and the news, Congress may even pre-empt the administration.
Bush and Cheney cornered won't be a pretty thing. It may be one constitutional crisis that Bush's friends on the Supreme Court can't get him out of - ultimately he's answerable to the court of Congress.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Feb 20, 2007 - 09:55am PT
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methinks the bigger question is how long before we are at war with china...iran can't invade and occupy. china on the other hand - give half the single men a frikin 22 and we are outnumbered, especially with most of the armed forces off defending haliburton assets
what was that last hopi indian prophecy ? something about a country from the west attacking, dropping great gourds filled with ash all over the land ? good thing none of the other stuff they said came to pass...oh, wait...
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 10:05am PT
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10%
The consequences for the U.S. would be disastrous, far beyond the problems we have with Iraq.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 20, 2007 - 10:21am PT
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It is inevitable as long as Iran is led by a bunch of apocolyptic nuts with black towels wraped around their heads that believe that a twelve year old dead boy in a well is commanding them that it's time to end western civilization.
Maybe they've been out in the sun to long with those black towels wraped to tight.
Now enter choior of chortling apologists for the misanthropic murderous "religion of peace"
Or maybe they'll blame it on the towels, that must have been provided by Wallmart
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 20, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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It's the "Year of the Pig". Ergo, according to the Chinese that interpret such things, big and exciting things are going to happen throughout the world. Better start planning your Victory Garden.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Feb 20, 2007 - 11:46am PT
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what's that chinese curse ? 'May you live in interesting times' or something similar ?
sometimes i think i should move to moab and start drilling a cave into the sandstone...plant corn and gourds, maybe some beans...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 20, 2007 - 11:52am PT
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I'd say it's inevitable with the current rhetoric coming from Iran. Do I think it's smart for the U.S. to do it? No. Maybe as a helping hand, but we're pretty far extended in Iraq. Maybe some B52's or B2's or F117's from Diego Garcia, but ground troops? No way. Let the Israeli's do it, they're the ones with the biggest stake in it.
Also, if it does go down, what happens to our ground troops in Afghanistan and Iraq? Targets? The Iranians won't hesitate to use WMD's in either country. If they were stuck, it'd have to be enormous and overwhelming. Wipe 'em quickly and render them indefensable. I don't know if that's possible now with all the Russian and Chinese AA and missle defense.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 20, 2007 - 11:56am PT
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Fattrad, I posted this link on the other Iran thread. You must be most careful since some people get very upset and untidy in their thinking when such items are posted by those that shouldn't have the "nerve" or "right" to post such information; it confuses them and results in temporary mental collapse. You then have vituperation, namecalling etc.
I'll check later to see if they're still in a fugue state.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 20, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
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Whitey, no ability to deliver conventional weopons? You're high again. Have you heard of the anti-ship missiles they've developed? Maybe the other ballistic missiles? Do you think they'd advertise their WMD capabilities? To think they don't have gas or germ capabilities is naive.
And just because we discuss what's probably inevitable, doesn't necessarily mean we're warmongers. Just a discussion.
Edit: Nobody doubts that most of Irans population is moderate if not a pro-western society. It's the president and religious leadership that's not very 'nice'.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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Iran has sensed its opportunity with last weeks surrender resolution.
The upsurge of Iranian supplied weaponry in the form of SA-18 / SA-7s and Styer 50 cal rifles from the Quds bigades and yesterdays attack on a US base are all related and not coincidental.
They are following the example of history and are embarking on their own Tet offensive. Even though the Tet offensive was a millitary failure that resulted in the almost total destruction of the NVA as a fighting force it broke the political will in the states.
Look for Iran to try to produce as many American casualties en masse in the next few weeks as possible.
Thanks Dems for supporting the troops! I'm sure they appreciate your encoragement of Iran.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:36pm PT
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Survey - Do you think we will go to war with Paraguay?
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 01:45pm PT
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Really Fatty? Plans are brewing for taking out Chavez?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 20, 2007 - 02:25pm PT
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Dingus, you don't need intelligence when their president publicly calls for the destruction of the Zionist state. I'd say he's the sabre-rattler in this case. It's just a matter of whether we think he's bluffing or not.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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America lets their women drive cars and get jobs if the want them. Ha. Ha
I am so f*#king rich - Thanks America
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 02:33pm PT
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How hard is it for you people to stick to the question, how will I tally the votes?
Juan "Taking on M13" DeFuca
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 02:45pm PT
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Juan, I say "no."
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Feb 20, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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Not with this Congress and the forthcoming Presidential elections in 08.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 20, 2007 - 03:32pm PT
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Good one, Doug.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Feb 20, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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Fatty,
If one of the goals of all this war-mongering in the middle east is to bring "Democracy" to the region, you had better listen to the PEOPLE not the "leaders" with the loudest voices. The PEOPLE will make the choices once a democracy is in place. Remember....
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 03:47pm PT
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The PEOPLE is what is wrong with this thing called Democracy. We all get the same voting power, my vote should count 10 times that of a college student or illegal alien.
JDF
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 20, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
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The "religion of peas" strikes again.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Feb 20, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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Quote from fatty - "I don't for an instatnt think a democracy will flourish in the ME, other than Israel. Looking at bluerings link, the only hope is moderating Islam. "
With a nuke strike on Iran?
What the F*&^$(&^%$*)&^%?????
How is that going to moderate Islam?
How is bombing Saudi Arabia going to moderate Islam?
Will bombing Tel-Aviv moderate Israel and bring them around to Ahmedinejad's view-point?
Hell no.
Think fatty, think. Use the full 10% allotted.
From the link - "Zilla Huma Usman, the minister for social welfare in Punjab province and an ally of President Pervez Musharraf, was killed as she was about to deliver a speech to dozens of party activists, by a “fanatic”, who believed that she was dressed inappropriately and that women should not be involved in politics, officials said."
Fanatic, fatty. Not all of Islam.
By your standards Yigal Amir, who murdered Yitzhak Rabin, is a good reason to think all Israelis are murderers and want to halt the middle east peace process.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 05:04pm PT
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Its time to free the Women of the Middle East even if all the men be put to the sword. I value women's human rights more than the right of oppressive pigs to live. Funny how CNN does not report the above story about the women being killed for not wearing a scarf.
JDF
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
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On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."
PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,
Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,
Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,
Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,
Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.
Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.
Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Feb 20, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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Juan,
Noble effort, but as fatty has ponted out many times, the UN is "irrelevent".
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2007 - 09:11pm PT
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I think I will quit my job and move out of the sh#t hole called the San Fernando valley.
JDF
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Rocky5000
Trad climber
Falls Church, VA
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Feb 20, 2007 - 09:12pm PT
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An impossible question, really; international stability is a complex multivariable system with a number of fuzzy parameters. War is certainly going to happen, but pinpointing the time range or the participants is like predicting earthquakes or avalanches.
In any case the consensus of our votes will have no close correlation to what actually happens. Even if we had valid general information, we would as individuals disagree as to what that information meant, and our group opinion would dissolve into vagueness. Even if I lay out certain facts that seem self evident to me (land, food and water are finite, and every one of us would fight rather than starve slowly) there are those who will disagree. There are those who still think that the world's population could all live in an area the size of Texas, citing the example of Singapore. We would have to ruthlessly prune out any and all such faulty logicians, and we still might end up with nothing in terms of solid agreement.
I think people look forward to war and harship during extended times of luxury, just as I wish for snow and ice during the heat of the summer. Then when my fingers are freezing halfway up some icefall I change my mind again. That's the brain we're stuck with!
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Feb 20, 2007 - 09:25pm PT
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Yes we will be going to war with Iran. It will complete the doomsday end-times predicted in the Bible, followed so closely by G Dub and his ilk.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 21, 2007 - 12:20am PT
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16 B-2s
250 SDBs each
Whack 4000 black towel headed Ihateolas at once on a sunny friday morning.
We do know where they all live.
Don't we?
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 21, 2007 - 12:52am PT
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The rest of the world wouldn't be without oil.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Feb 21, 2007 - 01:59am PT
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Rocky5000 exhibits wisdom.
EDIT: but I disagree with him
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Feb 21, 2007 - 11:26am PT
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From TGT/(Racist P.O.S). - "We do know where they all live. "
If not I say we put a homing beacon on you and drop you in the middle east.
Two birds one bomb?
Oh, three birds you and fatty. Need fail-safe backup.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Feb 21, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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Six months to remove a sunken ship, nonsense: a small nuke placed correctly and it's vaporized. Not only that but the channel will be deeper and wider.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 21, 2007 - 11:59pm PT
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The "racist" invective.
The vienal vent of the uninformed!
I was positing a real, rational and quite possible outcome.
The black towel headed bunch are quite unpopular in Iran, especialy with the younger set.
A conventional attack on Irans army and infrastructure would produce a unifying nationalistic reaction.
A decapitating strike on what are considered by the majority as an oppressive and corupt oligarchy may have a salutory result.
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