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burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2019 - 10:20am PT
Greets All:

I lurk more than post so am a bit of an "unknown" here. I'm an
old dog from bitd who values their privacy so I don't use my real
name much on the 'Net. The ST Going Dark Crisis prompts me to be
a bit more forthcoming.

I am a seasoned Unix/Linux systems engineer with the requisite
expertise and infrastructure to bring up some forums on my cloud
stuff. So why don't I? Well, cuz all of y'all trolls could well
drive me broke on bandwidth fees and such. Still... I am
considering it. To which end I shot an inquiry off to Chris that
has as of yet gone unanswered so I'd have at least some clue what
I might be getting myself into. Maybe their spam filter nuked me
but I'm still waiting on, and would really appreciate, a reply ;)

If I were to do such, I have a few thought:

 As far as I can tell, politics and trolls are the primary
impetus for ST pulling the plug. So let's just not discuss
them, unless specifically relating to climbing regulations,
access, etc.

 No ads. Everyone with even a minimal clue uses ad blockers
anyways so they're not really a very viable revenue stream
these days. Ad servers, particularly third party, which
comprise the majority, are also the number distribution source
for malware and other nasties.

 Subscription based services tend not to succeed.

 Donation based stuff _sometimes_ succeeds _if_ the community is
cool.

 We all like being "free" but the need for moderators is
obvious. This is a thankless task and can be challenging to
strike the proper balance, but it can work and I've experience
with developing "moderator hats".


So, some few thoughts there, obviously need to be fleshed out,
but I'm curious to solicit input from others before going too
much further down the rabbit hole...

So lay 'em on me.

Peace-- Ken Gunderson, a.k.a. "Mush Puppy Ken" from bitd.

Edit:

To clarify, I personally feel we really _need_ more discussion of
such issues. But it needs to be intelligent debate, which seems
to have been displaced by name calling, threats, trolling, etc.
Much of which originates from political bots programmed to stir
up trouble than real people.

So, while I agree in principle, as ST going dark
illuminates (o^O) the reality is that a minority of asshats have
shat the bed for the rest of us.

How would you propose not repeating or mitigating the "mistakes"
that ST made operationally that led to pulling the plug? Cuz I
am quite sure ST and Co. have far more lucrative funding
available than a 'regular dirtbag' and my motivation for doing
this is community building rather than profit.

OTOH, being a regular dirtbag with shallow pockets kind of
mitigates the threat from law suits. I lurk and check in from
time to time and I don't have my thumb on the pulse of wtf
prompted this. I invite those who may to email me privately and
school me up a bit.


Roadie

Trad climber
moab UT
May 20, 2019 - 10:28am PT
Thanks Ken,
I'd love to see you run with this. However, I think keeping it open to ALL kinds of discussion is important. If you've read many of my posts you'll notice that not all are climbing related and many (almost all) address the broader social and political aspects we face today.
I find few things so dull as climbers who only want to talk about climbing. If that is the only thrust I probably wouldn't be interested.
Thanks, Steve
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
May 20, 2019 - 10:33am PT

I find few things so dull as climbers who only want to talk about climbing.

Yep.

johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
May 20, 2019 - 10:51am PT
As far as I can tell, politics and trolls are the primary
impetus for ST pulling the plug. So let's just not discuss
them, unless specifically relating to climbing regulations,
access, etc.

Wrong. It seems apparent a copy write lawsuit is the factor, although there is prolly something else going on which Chris won't go into. We don't know the facts, but it seems clear that Chris has no intent to keep this forum alive in any form.
Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
May 20, 2019 - 10:54am PT
What Roadie said.
Roadie

Trad climber
moab UT
May 20, 2019 - 11:02am PT
YO again, You're going to get a collection of ass-hats regardless. Lost of ass-hats just want to be ass-hats about climbing... Others about whatever.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
May 20, 2019 - 11:19am PT
Wrong. It seems apparent a copy write lawsuit is the factor, although there is prolly something else going on which Chris won't go into. We don't know the facts, but it seems clear that Chris has no intent to keep this forum alive in any form.

Maybe, but I am also wondering if Chris is just tired of the climbing thing. I know he's working on something in SLT(not climbing related)
When was the last time Chris posted a climbing tr?
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 20, 2019 - 11:20am PT
I'd like to see a new forum, and to have someone who has the inclination/expertise to thwart trolls and hacks would be great.

I felt the political threads helped me process what has been going on in this country and was miffed about 2 things; first that people could become so vitriolic, and second that Chris/RJ took the "no politics" threads because it brought out base behavior, when it took advertiser's threats to curb the sexist spew when the Boobs! thread was going on.

But to say no politics, to me, is a no go. Sure, I'd still join the group, but would prefer to be able to discuss current events, especially since I fear we are seeing the dissolution of this republic in real time.

Good luck!
L

climber
Just livin' the dream
May 20, 2019 - 11:47am PT
Good on ya, Ken!

Hope you go for it......cause I'm already going through withdrawals and the fat lady hasn't even sung!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 20, 2019 - 12:06pm PT
I agree with many, that "off-topic" should be allowed, but in a section separate from climbing oriented, as has been suggested MANY times. example:

https://yosemitenews.info/forum/index.php

Clear rules for moderation (asked for many times)
Notification of why moderated (asked for many times)

I like the idea of a moderator "team", reducing the load on all.
RJ Spurrier

SuperTopo staff member
May 20, 2019 - 12:15pm PT
Happiegrrrl2:
You said:
it took advertiser's threats to curb the sexist spew when the Boobs! thread was going on.

That isn't factual.

All it took to remove it was one responsible Forum member taking a moment to alert us to the inappropriate post. No advertiser was involved in any way. In fact, in 18 years we've never heard anything from any advertiser on this site about the Forum, or any Forum post, ever, with the sole exception of Da Brim, who felt mocked and unwelcome due to inappropriate posts by a handful of people.

As you have probably seen, we have always asked members to alert us to inappropriate posts, either by clicking on the feedback link at the bottom of every page, or by clicking on the "please let us know" link in the Forum tips at the right side of the screen every time you post where we say:
Please help us keep the climber's forum a friendly and informative resource. If you find posts that are objectionable, please let us know.


We were alerted by a member to the existence of the Boobs thread on January 21, 2013. It was removed within minutes.

rj
looks easy from here

climber
Santa Cruzish
May 20, 2019 - 12:35pm PT
with the sole exception of Da Brim, who felt mocked and unwelcome.
Interesting. I know of two Da Brims that were sold as a direct result of the thread here.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 20, 2019 - 01:00pm PT
It would be difficult or impossible to recreate the community that formed here. The SuperTopo forum started in the infancy of the Internet in hindsight. 3 years or so before FaceBook for example. You didn't even need a login in the beginning. It replaced rec.climbing for a few notable members.

It has a very simple interface that works for a lot of people, and since there were no sub forums it was very easy to navigate.

It seemed to attract an older, very experienced, California centric crowd. But other types joined in too, and it was a great resource for younger / less experienced climbers.

Now there are so many options. I don't see the majority of users going to any one other forum.

IMO the best way to keep the party going would be as a sub forum on a large corporate site. Maybe Reddit? I've never really used it. A large site has the resources to stay open and hire lawyers. People are going to be wary of putting the time and effort into another forum that could also shut it's doors one day. Of course a public / free / forever home would be good. There was talk about people going back to rec.climbing. It would be ideal to have a repository that would last forever. But maybe SuperTopo existed in the Golden Age of the climbing forum, LOL. Where regular appearances by people like Bachar, Long, etc. and even a few appearances by Royal(ty) Robbins were possible because older folks with the history and experience found this a novel way to converse and lay down some of their history/wisdom. From now on it may be a case of been there, done that.
jogill

climber
Colorado
May 20, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
A fundamental question that arises before any of this is resolved is the following:

After June 1st how are current members of ST notified of new forums being created?
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 20, 2019 - 01:26pm PT

^^^ One thought is to see if Chris would be willing to send out a bulk email to all ST Forum users after the 1st, notifying everyone of a new forum website, if and when one is created. The notification would be a one-time email about the new website, and not to notify of various new user groups on websites like Farcebook, etc. We would have to have a new website created, that somewhat resembles or doesn’t resemble this forum, but without any affiliation to the SuperTopo business entity.

I don’t see any of the existing websites (MP, RC.com, WF, etc.) taking the place of this forum after it is gone (as the Fet said above).

Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
May 20, 2019 - 01:34pm PT

With the success that we’ve had with open source projects here in the past, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think that we can work together to create a new website. The D5 hammer project came about because of communication on this forum, and I met Theron through this forum, which enabled us to get Tomahawks into production.

It’s easy for us to sit here and discuss ideas for a new website, but getting it implemented and up and running is another story. Is there enough desire and motivation amongst all of us to get something going? Or do we just say, “Hey, that was fun while it lasted”?

Brockman

climber
May 20, 2019 - 01:37pm PT
YES!

A REAL FORUM WOULD ROOL THE PLANET!

GreatIdea!

TFPU!
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
May 20, 2019 - 01:48pm PT
John Gill.....I know you're not a fan of Facebook, but as of the past 72 hours 176 prior Supertopoans are currently over on Facebook posting photos, topics and interacting pretty well at the Supertaco Refugee Group. I'm sure the word will get around.

I don't intend to be the moderator for long, but its doing its purpose for now, which is to unite the ST tribe and act as a stop-gap for the community until something else comes up. You should check it out!

I have an old signed copy of your book by the way...its one of my most cherished pieces of climbing "gear" I won. Sorry to act like a fanboy but just thought it might make you chuckle.

Scott
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2019 - 06:58pm PT
After discussion with some trusted advisor types, I've decided to move forward with this. Check me in a couple days. I'll posts URL.

Peace- o/
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
May 22, 2019 - 10:25pm PT
I know Ken from when he used to " live " in hidden valley. He has mad IT skills. Climbers will miss supertopo, and want another replacement " cyber campfire" to hang out at. I am curious to see what Ken comes up with. It seems random, but..ya never know......it would be nice to see climbers rally instead of fracture.....maybe this will be the place...who knows...?
briham89

Big Wall climber
santa cruz, ca
May 22, 2019 - 10:29pm PT
with the sole exception of Da Brim, who felt mocked and unwelcome due to inappropriate posts by a handful of people.

LOL!!!!!! I'm going to miss this place.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 23, 2019 - 04:31am PT
And of course Chester books who complained publicly in a thread!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 23, 2019 - 07:16am PT
Ken, I think it's going to take the very approach you are suggesting, and if you'll take the matter up, I have some hope that there's a long-term future for a genuine ST Alternative.

Thank you, and more power to you! If you need help, let me know. I'm hoping that this will be a viable "if you build it, they will come" sort of effort.

My particular suggestions at this point are two:

1) Go with a single forum rather than broken-up "subjects," and let the active threads percolate to the front page, exactly as ST does.

2) Allow users to have "handles," but sign-up is a verified, real-name process. That way, there is a bit of toothiness to banning. Then, have fairly "light touch" moderation, but inveterate trolls and bullies get one formal warning and then banned. Such an approach is far from perfect, but it will cut down on a lot of the ridiculousness, imo.

Again, thank you!
Roots

Mountain climber
Somewhere Fun
May 23, 2019 - 08:41am PT
I'd like to see one website that we are all on.

I do not like forums with one place to post. There should be sub-forums...especially a "sandbox" where it is barely moderated. -you don't like, you don't go into that sub.

Best of luck to all you competing site creators...not sure where we will wind up but we will be back together soon.

PS Facebook [snip]
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 23, 2019 - 09:37am PT
not sure where we will wind up but we will be back together soon.

Yes, in Valhalla, where the glorious battles rage throughout eternity!

;-)
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
May 23, 2019 - 09:45am PT
I was able to register on climberstacosalad with no problems, but it will take a learning curve and practice for me and probably others to be at ease with posting photos and navigating the site. GREAT EFFORT, HAPPIEGRRRL!

So, MushPuppyKen, since you have the requisite skills, motivation, and the desire for a civil, respectful climbers' forum, why not join the climberstacosalad as an administrator and help create a new climbers' forum???

An independent forum and one on FB are not mutually exclusive, so if you have reasons for NOT join the "salad," let's hear them! Thanks for your thoughtfulness and motivation.

burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2019 - 06:35pm PT
Greets All:

I was actually on this pretty early after the ST going dark
announcement. Unfortunately, in an effort at consensus building, I
waited far too long on responses to member to member emails. I then
was feeling a bit put off about investing time, effort, and money when
I was not only seemingly being ignored but some of the very folks I
was reaching out to subsequently put up competing alternatives during
the interim, so I decided "f*#kit". I rethought it and decided to
move forward after talking with a few friends about it.

So... here we are... time keeps on slippin', slippin', slippin' into
the future... 'wasted' too much of it being patient. Spouse had a bit
of an mishap the other day (she's fine) otherwise they'd be online
already. We will be traveling during the Memorial Day Holidays so I
will be afk until next week. So.. if y'all will endeavor to be a bit
patient, like I was, they'll be rockin' shortly after my return. If
that is not soon enough. Oh well. Mea culpa for not just doing it
right off the bat.

As to why I don't use free forums, reddit, fb, etc.? I eschew
mediocrity ;-p

For the more technically savvy: I run/manage a fairly comprehensive
infrastucture: mail, dns, app, database, web servers, etc. All under
my roof. In geek terms, I eat my own dog food so no passing the buck
if/when something breaks. And since 100% of any breakage (cuz you're
a fool if you think sh#t won't ever happen) is under my auspices, I
can fix it w/o having to wait on lamer support folks who oft times are
fairly clueless until you get your issue kicked up the ladder a few
rungs.

In non geek terms.... uhh... my email servers actually work ;)

SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 23, 2019 - 07:49pm PT
RJ and Chris Mac

I just wanted to thank you two for the taco for all of the years I've
been able to use it. You guys have done an awesome job, and it's not too late to THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!
L

climber
Just livin' the dream
May 23, 2019 - 07:57pm PT
As to why I don't use free forums, reddit, fb, etc.? I eschew
mediocrity ;-p

The Taco's gonna be a hard act to follow...but you certainly have the right attitude. Hope you can pull it off.

We'll be waiting here patiently..........until June 1st, that is.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 23, 2019 - 08:03pm PT
Bring it, burnin'! Sounds like you've got the goods. I, for one, am hoping to see a genuine alternative rather than the "hobbiest" approaches taken thus far.
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2019 - 08:04pm PT
Thank you for the encouragement.

fyi, the forums, once live, will be accessible here:

forums.redpointuniversity.com

I'll update this thread once they go live.

Now I must get back to packing fer' our road trip. Yeah!! ;D
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
May 24, 2019 - 11:22am PT
Good luck, Ken. Get the ball rolling and hopefully it will be easy for non-techy guys like me. I am ready to check it out and contribute....good luck designing this and hopefully it will be up soon. I do believe people are ready to rally! I mainly post pictures,...and odds bits of beta here and there...
johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
May 24, 2019 - 11:30am PT
http://climberstacosalad.freeforums.net/

http://climberstacosalad.freeforums.net/members

The party is getting started.

rbolton

Social climber
The home.
May 24, 2019 - 12:14pm PT
Get it, Ken. Let us know what kind of support you need. This has a good sound to it.
Loose Rocks

Trad climber
Santa Rosa, CA
May 24, 2019 - 12:23pm PT
The new site should have three sub-forums:

Climb-on: Climbing content including TRs.
Politards: A place for the bald to argue over combs. (whomever first posted that, thank you)
Off-topic: Everything else. (dogs, cats, art, what are you building, vans …)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 24, 2019 - 12:47pm PT
The party is getting started.

^^^ Uh, not too sure....

From Proboard's terms of service:

YOU KNOWINGLY AND FREELY ASSUME ALL RISK WHEN USING THE WEBSITE AND SERVICES. YOU, ON BEHALF OF YOURSELF, YOUR PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES AND YOUR HEIRS, HEREBY VOLUNTARILY AGREE TO RELEASE, WAIVE, DISCHARGE, HOLD HARMLESS, DEFEND AND INDEMNIFY PROBOARDS AND ITS OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS, AFFILIATES, REPRESENTATIVES, SUBLICENSEES, SUCCESSORS, AND ASSIGNS (COLLECTIVELY, THE "PROBOARDS PARTIES") FROM ANY AND ALL CLAIMS, ACTIONS OR LOSSES FOR BODILY INJURY, PROPERTY DAMAGE, WRONGFUL DEATH, EMOTIONAL DISTRESS, LOSS OF PRIVACY OR OTHER DAMAGES OR HARM, WHETHER TO YOU OR TO THIRD PARTIES, WHICH MAY RESULT FROM YOUR USE OF THE WEBSITE AND SERVICES.

Are the people who started the Taco Salad forum prepared to ante up for all that PERSONALLY (and by extension ANYBODY even remotely related) at the level this clause asserts? Do those people know what "indemnify" means? Do those people carry multi-million-dollar insurance policies against such eventualities, particularly in light of the (apparent) fact that legal action related to SuperTopo is what appears to have most strongly motivated the plug-pulling?

YOU HEREBY GRANT THE PROBOARDS PARTIES A PERPETUAL, FULLY PAID-UP, WORLDWIDE, SUBLICENSABLE, IRREVOCABLE, ASSIGNABLE LICENSE TO COPY, DISTRIBUTE, TRANSMIT, PUBLICLY DISPLAY OR PERFORM, EDIT, TRANSLATE, REFORMAT AND OTHERWISE USE USER CONTENT IN CONNECTION WITH THE OPERATION OF THE WEBSITE, SERVICES OR ANY OTHER SIMILAR OR RELATED BUSINESS, IN ANY MEDIUM NOW EXISTING OR LATER DEVISED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION IN ADVERTISING AND PUBLICITY. YOU FURTHER AGREE THAT THE PROBOARDS PARTIES MAY PUBLISH OR OTHERWISE DISCLOSE YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION IN CONNECTION WITH THEIR EXERCISE OF THE LICENSE GRANTED UNDER THIS SECTION. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE, AND HEREBY WAIVE, ANY CLAIMS ARISING FROM OR RELATING TO THE EXERCISE BY THE PROBOARDS PARTIES OF THE RIGHTS GRANTED UNDER THIS SECTION, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY CLAIMS RELATING TO YOUR RIGHTS OF PERSONAL PRIVACY AND PUBLICITY. YOU WILL NOT BE COMPENSATED FOR ANY EXERCISE OF THE LICENSE GRANTED UNDER THIS SECTION.

From my perspective, it was one thing to grant SuperTopo similar rights, but everybody using the Taco Salad forum needs to realize very explicitly that their content is then "licensed" (owned) in every possible way by a mega-corp that doesn't have a shred of interest in the community, its history, or its motivations.

If you are cool with that, cool. I'm not. People need to know what they are signing up for.

You hereby represent and warrant that You own all rights, title and interest in and to User Content or are otherwise authorized to grant the rights provided the ProBoards Parties under this section.

You are, and shall remain, solely responsible for the User Content you upload, submit, post, transmit, communicate, share or exchange by means of any Public Forum and for the consequences of submitting or posting same. PROBOARDS DISCLAIMS ANY PERCEIVED, IMPLIED OR ACTUAL DUTY TO MONITOR PUBLIC FORUMS AND SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY RESPONSIBILITY OR LIABILITY FOR INFORMATION PROVIDED THEREON.

Those in charge of Taco Salad need to understand what Proboards is accomplishing with this and the above sections of its terms of service. Proboards is very explicitly stating: "WE get to reside within Safe Harbor at the expense of requiring YOU to assert that YOU do not get Safe Harbor because YOU assert that YOU own and have all rights to whatever material is posted to YOUR forum."

Ready to ante up for that?

There's more:

You agree and understand that you may be held legally responsible for damages suffered by other Website members or third-parties as the result of Your remarks, information, feedback or other content posted or made available on the Website that is deemed defamatory or otherwise legally actionable. Under the Federal Communications Decency Act of 1996, ProBoards is not legally responsible, nor can it be held liable for damages of any kind, arising out of or in connection to any defamatory or otherwise legally actionable remarks, information, feedback or other content posted or made available on the Website.

There's a similar clause regarding "objectionable content," which is very broadly construed.

Ready to ante up for those?

ProBoards imposes certain restrictions on Your use of the Website and the Services. You represent and warrant that you will not:... (d) while, using the Website and Services, use "ad blocking" software or similar built-in web browser options designed to hide, block or prevent the proper display of online advertising;... Any violation of this section may subject You to civil and/or criminal liability.

NO use of ad-blockers. Got that?

You agree not to upload, post, transmit, display, perform or distribute any content, information or other materials in violation of any third-party's copyrights, trademarks, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights. YOU SHALL BE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY VIOLATIONS OF ANY LAWS AND FOR ANY INFRINGEMENTS OF THIRD-PARTY RIGHTS CAUSED BY YOUR USE OF THE WEBSITE AND SERVICES. YOUR BEAR THE SOLE BURDEN OF PROVING THAT CONTENT, INFORMATION OR OTHER MATERIALS DO NOT VIOLATE ANY LAWS OR THIRD-PARTY RIGHTS. PROBOARDS TERMINATES ACCOUNTS OF USERS DETERMINED TO BE REPEAT INFRINGERS.

The "you" referenced here is the "owner" of the sub-forum, in this case the principle(s) of Taco Salad. In short, if Proboards finds Taco Salad to engage in the sorts of behavior that was the bane of SuperTopo, it's going to shut Taco Salad down. So, Taco Salad will need to be very carefully monitored, supervised, and moderated... activities that further make Proboard's case the IT has Safe Harbor and "you" do not.

Without limiting any indemnification provision of this Agreement, You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ProBoards and its officers, directors, employees, agents, affiliates, representatives, sublicensees, successors, assigns, and Industry Professionals (collectively, the "Indemnified Parties") from and against any and all claims, actions, demands, causes of action and other proceedings (collectively, "Claims"), including but not limited to legal costs and fees, arising out of or relating to: (i) Your breach of this Agreement, including without limitation any representation or warranty contained in this Agreement; (ii) Your access to or use of the Website or Services; (iii) Your provision to ProBoards or any of the Indemnified Parties of information or other data; or (iv) Your violation or alleged violation of any foreign or domestic, federal, state or local law or regulation; (v) Your violation or alleged violation of any third party's copyrights, trademarks, or other intellectual property or proprietary rights; or (vi) any goods or services you advertise or solicit through the Website and/or Services.

More sweeping language to say: "YOU indemnify US and not the other way around. YOU take all risks, not US! WE throw YOU to the wolves in any dispute."

WITHOUT LIMITING ANY OTHER PROVISION OF THIS AGREEMENT, PROBOARDS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO, IN PROBOARDS' SOLE DISCRETION AND WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY, DENY USE OF THE WEBSITE AND/OR SERVICES TO ANY PERSON FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON AT ALL, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION FOR ANY BREACH OR SUSPECTED BREACH OF ANY REPRESENTATION, WARRANTY OR COVENANT CONTAINED IN THIS AGREEMENT, OR OF ANY APPLICABLE LAW OR REGULATION.

Read: "Even if you do everything right, we can shut you down at a moment's notice for any or no reason at all."

Upon termination, all rights and obligations created by this Agreement will terminate, except that Sections 1, 2, 4-8, 9-10, 14-27 will survive any termination of this Agreement.

Clauses like this are always my favorite whenever I see them in a contract being foisted off on us, and I NEVER sign a contract with such a clause in it. Period.

It's entirely unilateral, and it's entirely open-ended. It puts "you" on the hook indefinitely. Are the principle(s) of Taco Salad prepared to ante up for this?


It goes on. I've quoted just a few of the more egregious clauses in the agreement that the principle(s) of Taco Salad have already agreed to. Collectively they constitute an "agreement" that is so unilateral and sweeping that the legal implications are astounding.

Ahh, what could go wrong? No worries. Right?

Whatever. But I won't put my time into such a venue. The more popular Taco Salad becomes, the higher are the odds that the above clauses are going to get the principle(s) into significant trouble and/or shut the forum down. I do not believe that Taco Salad "has legs" or will last even a few years.

I'm not being a "naysayer" just to be "negative." I'm only saying that these sorts of "hobbiest" approaches are NOT even in the vicinity of a ST Alternative, and I await somebody (hopefully like Ken) to do this whole thing right.

Ken, as I said, if I can be helpful, I will be. And I'm willing to contribute money to the effort, if it's going to be done right. Plan on buying good insurance!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
https://nutagain.org
May 24, 2019 - 12:51pm PT
I think sub-forums is the wrong approach. That is like the old Yahoo directory-view of the Internet before Google crushed them. It's too painful to navigate around to find where the happenin' conversations are. A better approach:

1. Rely on tags that the author can assign to the thread, and that contributors and readers can also assign to the thread. Fancier would be to distinguish whether tag assignments done by the author vs contributor vs reader, but that might be too complicated for most folks to use or care about. It can be built into the feature set and exposed to users who want it, but have smart defaults that lump them all together (e.g. a variable alias "tag" that matches the union of {author_tag, contributor_tag, reader_tag} or perhaps have separate variables for tag and tag_source.

2. Default view is to show everything, a la supertopo

3. Links/tabs at the top can provide the equivalent of sub-forums: (For Sale, TRs, Non-Climbing, Politics/Chaos, etc.). This creates a filtered list of topics that match the tags for the most frequently used tags or tags most desired to be highlighted/emphasized by the admins.

4. Have a search window to specify boolean combinations of tags, like:
TR and Climb
TR and not Climb
TR and (Climb or Ski)
Historical and Yosemite

5. These boolean operations should be encoded in GET string (of course sanity-check user input first), so people can bookmark the resultant searches and save the view that makes them happy.

6. Maybe add in a NSFW (not safe for work) tag that anyone can assign, and by default this is *not* displayed in the default new user view. One would have to click a link (or construct a tag query) to include the NSFW tag.

7. Take this thread-level idea down to individual posts, to create a sort of built-in grease-monkey for end users: enable filtering out specific authors from thread results.

8. Enable users to enable/disable NSFW posts within a given thread.

9. It's complicated for how to crowd-source the NSFW labels without it becoming weaponized for censorship or bullying. Some ideas:
 require a specific karma/rating for the user before they are allowed to mark others' content as NSFW
 require N number of users to tag a post or thread as NSFW before the tag is applied


This gives everybody what they want, mass user-customization, with minimal to no operations overhead. Nobody wants to spend hours looking at lists of messages or actions awaiting approval. A forum that depends on this will die.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 25, 2019 - 06:00am PT
If the OP will contact me, either as Happiegrrrl or Administrator, on Climbers Taco Salad with a direct link to the forum once it's live, I will happily make sure it's prevelantly displayed, to aid in migration.

When I read the first post from OP and it didn't gain much traction, probably as the OP wasn't "known," I thought it didn't look like it was going anywhere and that was why I made CST.

I'll stay with CTS as needed, and if it becomes obsolete in lieu of OP's forum, than that is fine by me, and I'll let CTS go when it's clearly not needed.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
May 25, 2019 - 08:00am PT
PFJ? PFJ? Eff the PFJ!

We're the JPF!


Splitters!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 25, 2019 - 05:05pm PT
That's gracious, Happi. I personally appreciate your attitude. Thank you.
johntp

Trad climber
Punter, Little Rock
May 27, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
If the OP will contact me, either as Happiegrrrl or Administrator, on Climbers Taco Salad with a direct link to the forum once it's live, I will happily make sure it's prevelantly displayed, to aid in migration.

When I read the first post from OP and it didn't gain much traction, probably as the OP wasn't "known," I thought it didn't look like it was going anywhere and that was why I made CST.

I'll stay with CTS as needed, and if it becomes obsolete in lieu of OP's forum, than that is fine by me, and I'll let CTS go when it's clearly not needed.

Agree some collaboration would be a good idea so the community doesn't get fractured.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 27, 2019 - 06:14pm PT
Green Mile bump
Bobbleseth

Trad climber
Utah
May 27, 2019 - 07:57pm PT


...

http://widefetish.com/


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 27, 2019 - 08:50pm PT
"Wide fetish" will likely be wisely inaccessible to those who lurk from work or corporate networks. Maybe have a better work friendly aliased dns name?

Just sayin...
Bobbleseth

Trad climber
Utah
May 27, 2019 - 09:02pm PT

""Wide fetish" will likely be wisely inaccessible to those who lurk from work or corporate networks."...

That's a very good point...

One that hadn't crossed my mind...

:-)

burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2019 - 09:22am PT
Greets All:

Back in the saddle again. Great road trip. Soul refreshing. Time to go have some fun. Stand by. ;^)

o/
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 28, 2019 - 09:31am PT
Looking forward to your efforts....
Scole

Trad climber
Zapopan
May 28, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
Adios Super Topo.

I, for one, am not interested in a new iteration of ST. I prefer to put my energy into something new as, with the same administrators, it will end up in the same place.

What I have seen of the Taco Salad looks promising. Even some previously banned ST members are posting there, and have not been too obnoxious as yet. Hopefully it will remain climbing oriented and we can have all the rainbows and unicorns that are lacking on WF
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2019 - 06:47am PT
Geronimo!! Here ya' go! Big medicine!

We should be pretty solid here (logos and "branding" stuff is there
as a fill in and not necessarily permanent):

https://forums.redpointuniversity.com

I have provisioned things a bit on the lean side. Somewhat shot in the
dark w.r.t. resource allotment but we can scale as we go.

Terms of Service are intentionally lax. We can tighten up as need be.

Oh, yeah, I've not tuned the uploaded file sizes for images and such.
Another place where I'll monitor and adapt as I get a better feel as
to needs. Might be a couple other knobs that I'll need to tune.
Stay calm! Every little thing is going to be alright.

Have fun-- Ken >;^D


Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 29, 2019 - 07:06am PT
" ,ho-boy" 🙄**
Got it done, didn't properly verify the email, Lost a hard-wrought 1st post when I was asked to verify,,,At least I got the Lap-top to boot
starting off on a good foot

**& not that it matters but from the next post?
Missed the 1st post by ~ -.-,-,-,-,-.-~ that much!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
May 29, 2019 - 07:15am PT
First post!

Looks very clean. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. Thank you for your efforts!
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2019 - 07:21am PT
My username was to long & 🙄 My password (that matches my EMail)was to Short
The worry is will that work..

Heh... likely not, but I've never thought to test such a combo. So I just did. It does not.

Pass phrases need to be 14 characters. Cuz it is a big bad Internet out there and the forums want to keep y'all from shooting yourselves in the foot. Not to mention having an account easily cracked and abused for miscreant mischief.

Also, those who prefer Category vs. Flat views may season their default view to taste. See individual account settings.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 29, 2019 - 09:17am PT
Looks great so far....
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
May 29, 2019 - 09:42am PT
Sleek. Nice selection of settings
Ahwahnee Bartender

Big Wall climber
Fog Town
May 29, 2019 - 09:57am PT
The cool people have already joined. Just sayin'

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 29, 2019 - 10:37am PT
I wouldn't know what to do without my garblebase Gnome!
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
May 29, 2019 - 10:54am PT
To the OP:
Thanks for taking the initiative. I will probably check it out at some point, but right now I just have Forum drama fatigue. The Facebook group is a good holding pattern for people who already use Facebook, and there are a lot of familiar faces over there. I appreciate Happie starting the Freeforum group, but I took a look at it and don't want to sign up on yet another service that monitors and markets every keystroke I make.
The main thing I desire out of a Forum, is some kind of lighthanded moderation, so that all the kinds of posts that drove people away from this Forum, don't just reappear in an endless "Groundhog Day" nightmare of unpleasantness.
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2019 - 11:14am PT
but I took a look at it and don't want to sign up on yet another service that monitors and markets every keystroke I make.

Mayhaps you might want to take a gander at the terms of service you are presented during the registration process. You will be offered the chance to cancel the registration if you disagree.

Lets see if I can post them here:



This community forum collects and processes your personal information.

We use this information strictly to personalise your experience in this community, as well as to associate the posts you make to your user account. During the registration step you were asked to provide a username and email address, you can also optionally provide additional information to complete your user profile on this website.

We retain this information for the life of your user account, and you are able to withdraw consent at any time by deleting your account. At any time you may request a copy of your contribution to this website, via your Rights & Consent page.

If you have any questions or concerns, we encourage you to reach out to this forum's administrative team.
I consent to the collection and processing of my personal information on this website.

Occasionally, we may send emails to your registered email address in order to provide updates and/or to notify you of new activity that is pertinent to you. You can customise the frequency of the community digest (including disabling it outright), as well as select which types of notifications to receive via email, via your user settings page. Unless explicitly changed in your user settings, this community does not send out email digests
I consent to receive digest and notification emails from this website.

In other words, GDPR compliant (the opt out check boxes are hidden above). But I am open to tuning them as warranted.

o/

Note: Bold emphasis added for those still confused about the terms.

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
May 29, 2019 - 11:38am PT
^ He was referring to the Climbers Taco Salad privacy policy, not the Redpoint ones.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 29, 2019 - 11:51am PT
Zuckerberg lives in a palace funded in large part to taking and selling your complete identity and connections.

The guy running redpoint probably doesn't live in a fortress on Hawaii based on stolen proceeds. If he can make back the bandwidth/hw costs in ads, good for him!

burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2019 - 11:52am PT
Ah, thanks for the cluebat happie :)
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2019 - 11:55am PT
Zuckerberg lives in a palace funded in large part to taking and selling your complete identity and connections.

The guy running redpoint probably doesn't live in a fortress on Hawaii based on stolen proceeds. If he can make back the bandwidth/hw costs in ads, good for him!

See beginning of thread, second bullet point:

No ads. Everyone with even a minimal clue uses ad blockers
anyways so they're not really a very viable revenue stream
these days. Ad servers, particularly third party, which
comprise the majority, are also the number distribution source
for malware and other nasties.

If it gets to be more than I can bear, I will explore other options taking community input under consideration.

o/
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
May 31, 2019 - 05:13pm PT
Your password's length must be at least 12 characters.
WTF?
Are you nuts?
JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
May 31, 2019 - 05:20pm PT
Shoot, that’s easy.
fattradlocker..
burnin' vernon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
WTF?
Are you nuts?

Maybe? Probably, most likely, even. But what has that got to do with anything, eh?

For the challenged, see Forum FAQ, Item #2:

https://forums.redpointuniversity.com/topic/4/forums-faq

It's already been posted here in some thread or another so I won't a second time. That said, for those who may actually be challenged remembering a 12 character pass phrase.... check out the link. Help is available ;-)

Peace-- o/
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